Landscape Lessons with Grant Swinbourne from Landscape Photography World (EP164)

[00:00:25] Speaker A: Well, good morning everybody and welcome back to the Camera Life podcast. It is Thursday 12th March 2026 and being a Thursday morning, we are joined by a by Australian Landscape Seascape and Cityscape photographer, educator and host of the Landscape Photography World podcast, Grant Swinburne. G', Day, Grant. Welcome to the show. [00:00:46] Speaker B: G'. [00:00:46] Speaker C: Day. Thanks for having me on the show. Absolute pleasure to meet you two guys for the first time and really excited to be on the show and see what happens. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Well, we certainly hope that you hold that same view at the end of the show given that your podcast royalty, you've been pushing out content constantly for a number of years and we'll get into that a little bit later, but maybe just before we do. Just before we went live today, we were having a quick conversation about your decision to no longer use certain software applications, predominantly Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. Explore that a little bit. So what was it that that sort of moved you away from those kind of those Pinnacle products? [00:01:37] Speaker C: The biggest reason was the doubling in subscription costs or almost doubling. I think it went from 15, around about 15 Aussie dollars a month to about 24 Aussie dollars a month. And I was kind of like, seriously? And when I have a look at what they're doing for that subscription as opposed to what you, you've already got, it is almost all AI capability. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:09] Speaker C: And that sort of just, it didn't ring true to me as being something that I wanted to continue with aside from the hip pocket hit that, that was massive in itself, but it was really looking at what I was getting for that value. And I didn't see a great deal of value in continuing. So I started looking for alternatives. And there's there, there are a few out there. I will note. I didn't use Lightroom very much other than to play around a little bit with it, educate myself about what it did. I don't use the Lightroom cataloging feature or never used that. So I never had that catalog to transfer over anywhere. I use cataloging within the actual Windows file system. I run a Windows machine. I've been an IT guy for 30 odd years and so I know my way around those file systems and I know how to categorize and catalog stuff properly so that it is easy to find and it's actually not that hard. You know, place, date, not much else, you know. Yeah. Yep. So I know where I've been, I know when I've been there. And so if I'm looking for Tarometta in 2022, I can go straight to that folder and get what I need. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah, so, so what about though? So I might be way just forgetting how cool everything is with tech, but Lightroom makes it really easy because you're working on RAW files and you've got your non destructive edits and basically anytime you can go to that photo and what you've done to it is just sitting there as a non destructive edit and you can grab a slider and move it and that kind of thing. How does that work with your workflow now? Like can you open a RAW file and it's got the edit that you've done sitting there that you can tweak or do you have to start from scratch? Explain that to me. [00:04:14] Speaker C: So I'll talk about how I used to work and how I've transitioned that workflow because they're similar but different. So for me in the Photoshop days I would open that RAW file in Camera raw. When you save that, that gives you a set of saves in a. I [00:04:41] Speaker B: forget the file name, the exif file [00:04:43] Speaker C: or yeah, the exit file. So you, you basically have what you've done to it there and effectively with the new product that I'm using you get the same sort of gear. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:56] Speaker C: And it is different but I'll, I'll, I'll explain why when, when I, when I come to that. So if I needed to tweak the, the RAW file edit in Camera Raw, you just bring it up and everything was there. You could turn stuff on, turn stuff on again and you weren't starting from scratch. So Camera raw, for those that aren't aware, is effectively the Lightroom develop function except it's embedded into Photoshop. It's not really embedded, it's a side program and it gets opened up when you open a RAW file before imports into, into Photoshop. So for me, changing over those same features were one of the important things that I wanted to get. Now what I've done is I've, I took a good look around and for me the one that works or has worked best for me and I'm not paid by these guys, I, I don't pay for the product as well. So that is actually another important thing. From a Hip Pocket perspective, it's very good, it's way cheaper. But I also miss out on a couple of features because I'm not using the paid version. I'm using Canva's affinity photo. Interesting what that does. Interestingly, it has the capability of ingesting Photoshop plugins. So things like NIK software, I still get all of that functionality in Affinity. So you just point it at the folder where the NIK software lives and you then have any other Photoshop plugin. So as long as you leave your Photoshop plugins folder on your system, you just point Affinity at that. And all of your Photoshop, not all of them work right. Okay. It's important to go through and work out what works, what doesn't. Affinity works fine. And that, be honest, that's the main one that I use. The other thing that I use quite a bit is luminosity masks or masking, tonal masking and so forth. An Affinity basically has the same features and functionality. It's a little bit more manual because I actually had a Photoshop module from, I think it was Jimmy McIntyre that allowed me a couple of one click things that just made automated creation of some of those things a lot easier. That said, we're talking about minimizing a minute or two's worth of work. So it's not that onerous for me now to actually create a luminosity mask that gives me what I want for the image that I'm playing with. So there's a, you know, feature wise. The other interesting thing is, and I'm not sure how they get around this from a copyright perspective, but all of the edit functions, all of the adjustment layers, etc. They're named exactly the same as they are in Photoshop. So the familiarity and the shift was a no brainer. It also has some other interesting features which I don't really get into but you can do a lot more around vector editing and text editing which as I say, I don't use a lot of. But there are other features in Affinity which because it is kind of, whilst it is called Affinity photo and it is aimed at photo editing, it is also aimed at broader content creation. So being able to generate other things. [00:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah, which we do see in Photoshop [00:08:57] Speaker C: especially with a lot of the side [00:08:59] Speaker A: products that they release, don't we? [00:09:01] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So it combines a few of those sort of side products that. And if you've got the full Canvas suite which I don't use because I don't do that sort of thing. I'm not in marketing and I don't, you know, other than marketing myself and I don't get that excited or worried about basically gives you some of those side products built in and the ability to export to the canva broader suite around broad broader content creation. So for me, key reason it's cheap, it cost me nothing. The things that I miss out on are things like AI noise canceling and AI selection capability and the AI spot removal and that sort of thing. But to be honest, I, I come from a long knowledge of Photoshop and I rarely use those things anyway. I usually just clone. If it was a dust spot or something, I'd clone it out just using the standard clone tool. Because to be honest, the AI tool didn't really change the game for dust spot removal. [00:10:19] Speaker A: It's a bit hit and miss sometimes. I find that too. [00:10:23] Speaker C: And to be honest, I can be just as accurate and I can get the removal that I want with, with the manual tools. So I, I don't see that I'm missing out on much in terms of not paying for the product. Now how long they keep it free, who knows. But at some point I assume they will slap a, a fee on it. I know I, I know why they're doing it for, for free. It's a loss leader. It gets people in and they want to then attract people to up upscale and, and get into the broader Canva thing. [00:10:57] Speaker B: So just, just to clarify on the price, so is, is the price that you can pay to get like the extra AI features and things like that, is it just the Canva Pro plan or is it, is it a separate like affinity plan? Do you know that? [00:11:12] Speaker C: Because it's a separate affinity plan. So you can get a separate affinity plan. You can also. So like anything, it's tiered. You can have this bit and this bit or just this bit. And so I think it's also from memory and this may have changed. But from memory, when I did the switch about five or six months ago, whenever it was the price was just a single price. You don't pay anymore. It's not a, it's not a subscription model that may have changed. I know that there was some rumblings about Canva changing their model to a subscription model just like everyone else, where you rent the software instead of actually owning it. So the last time I looked it was a one off. I think it was about 250 bucks or something Aussie, something similar to that. As I say, I may be well out of date with that info. It's been some time since I've looked and because I'm happy with what I'm doing, I'm not looking. Yeah. [00:12:19] Speaker A: When you were doing your research into, you know, moving away from Lightroom, Photoshop, Adobe products and finding an alternative, were there other, other products that you saw on the market that you thought were good but proved to be less reliable? [00:12:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I won't say less reliable, but it was a mix of things and some of it was features. So there was Capture one, there was a few others that I I can't remember the the name of there's gimp, which has been out there as probably the most popular open source photo editing or image editing software. I tried GIMP several times over the years and I always found its interface was just a bit too arcane for my liking. If you applied yourself and put in the time, I reckon I could learn it, but I'm pretty lazy when it comes to learning software. Well, yeah, if it's easy, then do the easy thing rather than spend days trying to learn something that's really going to make you struggle if you don't learn it. [00:13:41] Speaker B: I might just check in with the live chat. There's some good comments coming in because we are live. If this is your first time listening to the Camera Life podcast, we record it live so that you can get in the live chat and you know, have your opinion on on Adobe Dennis Smith from the School of Light says, I'm working in Premiere, Lightroom and Photoshop all open. While listening, I want to punch my computer in the face. Morning, Dennis. Glad to hear it too. [00:14:06] Speaker A: Glad you woke up and chose peace today, Dennis. [00:14:08] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:14:11] Speaker B: who else? So Paul says, I found the whole Lightroom library and catalog system to be excellent and so have I as well. And this is where I have an issue. So he says, so I'm kind of captured. Is there anything that will seamlessly import a Lightroom library? And that's what I'm interested to know because even though, like you say, all my stuff is folder sort of cataloged and that's fine. Like I can, I could, if Lightroom disappeared, I could find the images. So but the way that you can navigate between photos with all of your edits and everything right there in kind of a graphic interface, I do really like that. And I've got quite an extensive catalog. And that's what I was thinking. I'm like, hang on a minute, am I on the hook for whatever they decide to charge a month for the rest of my life? You know, like, am I stuck now forever? Is there no out of this subscription because I'm stuck? [00:15:04] Speaker C: I can't really comment on that because I didn't use it beforehand. So I didn't go looking for an alternative to that because it was just a function I never used. And one of the reasons was I've got something like 12 terabytes of images floating around on my system and that also means there's 12 terabytes of backup, both physical. So I have a number of hard drives that, that split across for emergencies so that if I need to, I can bail out the door with that one box and I've still got everything. Plus there's also a cloud bucket backup that I'm using called Carbonite, I think. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:15:56] Speaker C: Anyway, so we can talk about that if you want, later. But from my perspective, using the file system was enough for me because the edits were retained. Yes, I had to open them in Adobe Camera Raw or Yes, I have to open them in Affinity to be able to see them graphically. I get. If you are in there, it could be a real struggle trying to find something that works to give you that same cataloging. I do understand that there are some alternatives out there, though. It's just not something that I've researched. [00:16:37] Speaker A: It's hard not to feel trapped when you're alive, when you're an Adobe user, you know, and I feel that I, I've been looking for, passively looking for alternatives, but then I kind of, I'll go to, you know, I'll download a bunch of images off my camera and I'll go, well, this just makes sense. It's just easy. I know it, you know, and it kind of softens my resolve to move away. And I'm sure, [00:17:02] Speaker C: I think they're relying on that innate difficulty in moving away to retain its customer base. Yeah, yeah. You know, I know there are alternatives. I could have opted for paying for the software and not got all the updates and got out of the subscription model to a certain degree a year or so ago or whenever it was that they were offering that. I don't know that they're still offering that. But, you know, from my perspective, it was kind of like, seriously, you're doubling, you're almost doubling the price on me. You're not giving me a great deal of value for that doubling that. I see because most of what you're doing is AI stuff that I'm not using anyway or don't need to use. That said, loved the AI noise reduction. That was fantastic. But to be honest, I'm finding in Affinity anyway, without any AI, the sliders that I get to play with, both color noise and innate noise, I can do noise canceling, keep sharpness. And the thing is, a lot depends on the quality of the image that you've taken in the first place. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:20] Speaker C: If you do your work. [00:18:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:24] Speaker C: Then that noise reduction is A, less necessary and B, easier to do because you've actually done the work in the field to avoid having horrible noise, you know. It does also have a couple of interesting little tweak things. There's. And there are some things that I don't like about it, but one of the interesting ones is it actually has a astrophotography import tool where you can take a large number of images and it will combine them into basically on a one click, you just point it at the images you want, it ingests them and churns out a finished image. That stacked image of the Astro, you know, absolutely fantastic little tool. And as I said, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have any AI capability in it, but it does a stonking job of getting you a stacked image. Things that I'm not overly keen on. Some of the. There are a couple of things that it lacks in. So if I remember, I'm just trying to remember because I haven't looked at an Adobe screen for six months. So you had two in your blending modes, you had an opacity and I forget what the other one was called, but there was another percentage marker there that you could adjust which did different things. It doesn't have that. It only has an opacity that becomes useful when you want to do things like add some tonal difference using say a linear light or a hard light. Sorry, the brain's not working this morning, but it's okay. [00:20:43] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know what, I don't even know how this works. You landscape, you've got skills that we don't have [00:20:51] Speaker C: years of messing about with software. Yeah, which I, as I say, I was pretty lazy. But for those that don't know, before I got into photography editing I was using. I was employed in a number of roles in it, but one of those was actually building websites. And as part of that you had to have some kind of graphics chops to be able to grab images, adjust them, get them into the size and format and everything that you needed. Because sometimes the marketing guys didn't give you what you needed, rather than go back to them and teach them how to give you what you needed, it was easier to learn this stuff. So I also got into gaming at around about the same time and doing screenshot editing. So you would take a screenshot and funnily enough, one of the things that I used to enjoy with that was you would take a screenshot of a game and try to make that as much like a photo as possible. Yeah, so interesting got into pixel peeping and because you have in we're talking early 2000s games you have jaggies because the feathering on the edges of things wasn't as good as graphics cards weren't as good. So you have these little jagged edges on the edges of say a wing on an aircraft or something like that. And so yes I would actually go through and smooth those edges using tools in in Photoshop. So yeah, I got to learn some stuff that funnily enough became useful later when I was editing photos. Yeah not the edge smoothing so much because you know, I don't need to get down to pixel level and play around like that. Though it is useful occasionally I have used it once or twice where you get those blown out little halo edges on a horizon line or something like that. And so getting rid of those halos, one of the ways of getting rid of some of the where the automated tools didn't do enough a good enough job was to dive in and play around with that. Yeah. Let's jump into some more. I don't disagree. [00:23:22] Speaker B: More comments? Yes. Yeah, Bruce Bruce is there's a few comments here. I'll read a few out. We'll put a cap on this on this subject with a few comments from the chat. Bruce Moore says I've been a power user of Adobe products for years, Photoshop 2 onwards but I've been slowly removing them from my life. They are just abusing their user base now. He also goes on to say prefer Capture One but it's also dollar sign, dollar sign dollar sign. [00:23:47] Speaker C: One of the reasons why I didn't go with Capture one. It also is more of a Lightroom replacement than a full Photoshop. I'm not saying it's it does some of the stuff that Photoshop can do but for my workflow and what I how I operate with my images I didn't find Capture One really cut it for for the money. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Phil Taylor Photog says I learned to use Lightrooms collections and great cataloging features without having the files embedded within Lightroom libraries. Works perfectly for me. Oh that's cool. It's cool workaround it is. Paul says I use use Photoshop less and less these days. Some same for luminosity masking. I used to spend lots of time fixing photos. Now I'm comfortable with accepting the image failed and I'll need to try again someday. That's that's also a good strategy. Just be like you know what didn't work. [00:24:39] Speaker A: I can do better. [00:24:40] Speaker B: I can do better. Sounds like Dennis is sort of stuck in the ecosystem with Photoshop, Illustrator and indesign because they all kind of work together. And I think that's what Affinity is trying to do with its suite of design kind of Photoshop replacement stuff. And they merge them all together, very much Affinity app. So it's becoming more of a, an ecosystem as well in itself. But he's about to switch video to Resolve. And before I ask the next question that's come from the chat, let's just also say hi to Philip Johnson, David Mascaro, and Rodney Nicholson. Good to have you all here, but hi. Dennis says, hi, Grant. Nice to see you. Do you shoot any video for your YouTube channel? And how are you editing that? [00:25:32] Speaker C: When I remember to, yes, occasionally. And usually I do it on the phone when I remember to. But nine times out of 10, I will go and do something and forget all about taking video because I just get absorbed in, in the photography. I'm, I've always kind of liked the still image as a medium and in, in terms of editing. So the, the stuff that I do edit is largely for the podcast and I, so I record the podcasts that I do in video as well. And it's just, I just use zoom. I don't use any fancy software to make anything else happen. And in taking that, I use a product called Cap Cut, which is, again, I, I think free. Oh, sorry. Yeah, it has a paid version. I, I, I am actually paying for it. I, I went for the pro model because there's certain things that you can't do, and it puts restrictions on what you can and can't do. So there's certain stickers that aren't available unless you're a, a pro. So things like, you know, you like and subscribe stickers and, and the like, you've got to pay to kind of get hold of some of those sorts of things unless you handcraft them yourself. And I couldn't be asked doing that, so I don't. So, yeah, Cap Cut basically gives me drag and drop editing for what I do. It's easy, it doesn't take very long. I create a couple of images, so I do a YouTube thumbnail. I also do sort of like a header image which says, here it's Landscape Photography World. Here's the episode number, here's who I'm talking to. I just go add, add, add the main video, copy the bits and pieces I want, add any sound. I add the theme song, and then add in images from that person's catalog that they've sent Me. So each person that I interview, I ask them to send me about, you know, 15 to 20 images and I intersperse that out every five, 10 minutes, depending on the video. I don't try, and I'm not even trying to sync up all this, these images, something that we're talking about in the video because I rarely talk specifically about images with, with the people that I talk about. It's just, just not the format that I do. So, yeah, I've found that really easy. The longest thing in it is the rendering time and that's just down to the graphics card and the processor and it takes the time it takes. And when I'm doing an hour, hour and a half video, it takes roughly the same amount of time. Not quite, but roughly the same amount of time to do a full render of that in, in, in 4K. So you know, it. If I did it in, in less, then it would probably take a little bit less time, but I just push the button, walk away, go make a cupper and watch TV or something. Do something else. Yeah. Readable while it's doing that. Yeah, yeah, very cool. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thanks for providing some, some guidance around that. [00:29:05] Speaker C: I don't know about. God. [00:29:07] Speaker A: Well, no, I mean, even just, you know. Well, I think it is, it's. You're sharing your experience. It's not like you, this game, you've been doing it for some time, you've got a bit of street cred behind you. So it's, it's really interesting to hear. And like I said, I, I've even been looking at alternatives and I think just hearing what you've had to say and what other people have had to say kind of is inspiring me to look deeper. Yeah. [00:29:28] Speaker C: I guess for me it's important to point out that this works for my workflow. This works for me. Yeah. I'm not pushing affinity on anyone else. I'm just saying, for me, I found a product that does what I need it to do. I'm not trying to say it's better or worse than anything else that's on the market. And I would advise, if you're sick and tired of Adobe and the subscription model, take a good look around because there are alternatives. The question is, what are you prepared to pay and what compromises you're prepared to make in sitting there looking at that software and saying, okay, well, I've got a steep learning curve. I've got almost a zero learning curve, which is what I found with affinity. It was. And the online help that it's got is really easy. There are again YouTube videos out there showing you how to do certain things. Things as well. So, you know, it isn't as hard as I originally thought it might have been. And so by using the free version and trialing it and doing that before I got to the end of my subscription time, I allowed myself enough time to work out. Okay, this is satisfactory. I looked at a number of others as I said kept capture one and a few others that are out there. Actually one cataloging. Yeah, that, that, that was another thing was the, the Australian ownership. Bruce. I, I agree. The. The fact that Canva is Australian owned actually helped. It is one thing that currently I'm trying to do with a lot of things. So it's very, very difficult trying to reduce my. [00:31:21] Speaker B: Especially in tech. In tech it's pretty hard to. Yeah, yeah. To find the products that you need that are an Australian company. So the fact that Canva is kind of leading the world in what they're doing. Like we use it. I use. I've got the Canva Pro account. I don't use affinity, but I'm going to give it a whirl. But I've got the Canva Pro account. That's what makes all of our thumbnails, all the graphics for this podcast. I even made our intro graphic video thing that for the random photography show on Monday nights. If you watch that show, you'll see the crazy intro that I made all in the regular Canva, which is just like a drag and drop, easy peasy graphics editor for people that don't know how to do graphic design like me. So it's a cool company. And, and that is a subscription that I pay to use the features that I want, which is, I think it's, it's not cheap, like it's 17amonth or something like that. But for the speed that it gives me to make everything, it's well worth that investment for me. But they do have a free version of that too that misses some of the tools, but you can still do a lot of what I do on the free version. So I think they're having a crack by offering these free products that most people can get what they want out of them and then the people that want more features can pay a little bit more. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that model. I think it's good. Let's pivot a little bit here. Grant. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Sure. [00:32:50] Speaker A: You, you. Before we went live, and I hope you don't mind me sharing this, you mentioned that you've retired. How long ago did you retire? [00:32:57] Speaker C: I retired at 57 back in 2021. So, right, okay. I was lucky enough to do a few investments which came out okay and I got offered a redundancy from where I was working. I've been there for about 10 years and the payout was worth taking and I had a good long think about what I wanted to do and it wasn't go back to a career in it. And so pretty much I'd already started the podcast before I left there in September. 2021 was when I started the, the podcast. And so the, the photography thing was really where I wanted to take things and I thought, okay, well I've got enough of a backing and a cushion behind me before my super kicks in at 60. So I get my super now that I'm 61. And so it was really, for me, it was a fairly easy to just decision to move away from a corporate world into a more creative sphere in, in my life rather than, you know, thinking about deadlines and meetings and those sorts of things. I still have deadlines, but they're self imposed, which means if I really want to flex it, no one's going to slap me over the back of the head. I'm not going to lose a job [00:34:31] Speaker A: over it, you know, so just don't tell the boss. [00:34:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, well, she, she, she knows about some of those deadlines, but other deadlines are more related to the podcast anyway, so. Nice. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Let's talk a little bit about that change for you. So, you know, retiring is a big life change and I remember recently I was speaking to one of our, one of our friends and amazing viewers, Felicity Johnson, about how prolific her photography has been recently, you know, she's just been all over social media, she's winning awards, she's doing an amazing job. And I said, you know, what's your secret? What's going on? You know, you just seem to be everywhere with your camera. She said, oh, retirement is, is, you know, basically retirement is very good for me. You know, I've got time and all of those sorts of things. Often people, when people retire, there's a, I know my father felt it to some degree. There's, you know, there's a bit of dread about what's next, about how you're going to make that happen from a financial point of view to live comfortably. What, what was the retirement process like for you as a, you know, as a photographer? And you know, you've said you've decided to lean into the photography a bit more. What was that transition like? For you? [00:35:40] Speaker C: To be honest, I. I found it fairly easy because I had already started the podcast, I'd already started sort of selling prints and doing workshops and that sort of thing. So it wasn't that great a leap. And, you know, the key thing is having a comfortable enough financial cushion behind you before you take that step. I would not advise somebody that is sitting there without any kind of savings, without any kind of financial cushioning to take the leap into the, the abyss, because it is something that would be very challenging. And it's not like I don't have other, you know, responsibilities. I've still got two of my daughters living at home. They're adults, they're earning their own money, but they're still living at home. I've still got my wife to support. So, you know, it's not like I can just go off and do what I want to do when I want to do it, but I can do a lot more of what I want to do when I want to do it. And in terms of, you know, being able to travel more, being able to get out and take more photos, it has been absolutely wonderful. And I've been able to spend more time looking at what I'm doing and why I'm doing it and thinking more about that. And part of that has been driven by some of the conversations that I've had on the podcast as well. I, I like to call it. It's been nearly four and a half years. It, it is literally like four and a half years of, of university education in photography, talking to different people at different levels. You know, I've spoken to beginners, I've spoken to people that are, you know, people like Art Wolf that know he's in his 70s and been. Been running a photography business forever, you know, and having conversations with people like that really helps you clarify your thinking around both the business side of things, but also around the creative side of things. And so I've concentrated a lot on both of those things. That said, the business side of things has taken a bit of a back foot because now that I've actually got hold of my super, I've put myself into a minor conundrum because we're building a place up the coast about an hour and a half north of Sydney, and we're using my super to do that and then going to use the sale of the place that I'm sitting in now once the build is finished, hopefully by the end of the year, fingers crossed to actually use as retirement savings. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:42] Speaker C: That said, there's this Intervening period where, yes, money's not in abundance, but there's enough to tide us over until that build is finished. As long as it doesn't go on, you know, 15, 16, 17, 18 months. It goes that long, then work becomes an issue. The real issue comes down to the amount of hours that you can work when you've pulled on your superannuation. So the Australian government basically says, well, if you work more than 20 hours, doesn't matter how much you earn in that 20 hours, but if you work more than 20 hours a week, then we're going to tax your super withdrawal at the top, right? Oh yeah. So I'm doing a lot less. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:37] Speaker C: Work perspective. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:39] Speaker C: Simply because. And, and I've stopped doing workshops for the reason that I know what it takes to put together a workshop and it's more than 20 hours in a week. And basically I don't want to shortchange customers or guests in that workshop by spending less time on doing it just to skirt around tax laws. So I basically shut that side of the business down and I'm not doing it at all for at least the next two tax years because it'll be the, the, the, the build and the withdrawals on super will actually fall into next tax year as well. I know this is not non photography related, but it's, I'm doing things in my business. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's super interesting. I, yeah, I would have never thought about that. Like, understand. [00:40:34] Speaker C: I didn't think about it. Got close to retirement and. Yeah, okay, well, interesting fact there. Once you've pulled all of you super, which I could do in one lump sum this, this financial year, but there's reasons why I'm not doing that. That said, once I did that the following tax year, I'd work as much as I like. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Ah, crazy. [00:41:00] Speaker B: So it's, it's, it's just when you're withdrawing in the same year. [00:41:04] Speaker C: Wow. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, it is. [00:41:06] Speaker C: When the withdrawal happens and when the work happens. If they're both concurrent in, in the concurrent tax year, then you. So for those thinking of retiring, get yourself some good advice, both tax and superannuation advice, and have a good think about what you want to do. For me, photography and the podcast and what I'm doing there was the obvious thing. And so I didn't find it terribly stressful. I won't say it wasn't stressful, but I didn't find it immensely stressful. I kind of relaxed into it and thought, okay, if I think about this in a rational way perspective, I've got enough of a cushion behind me that I can manage to not earn anything for, you know, roughly a year. Once I get beyond that, then, okay, I've got to start earning some money. And so, you know, I've done that. And that was what the business was doing for me, was earning enough to tick over. It's not, you know, I, I, I'm not a Peter leak, so I'm not [00:42:14] Speaker B: going to, you know, sell a million dollar photos. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:18] Speaker C: I'm not doing that even if I buy them myself. Did I say that? [00:42:24] Speaker B: Grant? [00:42:25] Speaker A: Just, just on the, on the topic of retirement, did you notice a change in the quality of your work or your approach to the actual business of taking photos and making images? Did you notice a change in that when you, after you retired, did you see an increase because you were spending more time doing your craft? [00:42:43] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. It was, it was probably more gradual over the first sort of 12 to 18 months, but I think it's actually accelerated a little since then in terms of how I, how I view my photography, what I'm looking to do with it, and how I'm, how I'm actually working both in the field and in the studio. So for me, it has, has been something that has, has definitely changed. It's arguable about whether or not the quality is better. I think it is, I feel better about it, which is to be, that's the important thing. [00:43:25] Speaker A: That's the number one thing. [00:43:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You know, I, I don't look at things like likes and so forth as the be all and end all on social media. That's not why I share. I share because I like to tell a bit of a story with my image. And it might not be anything other than here's a pretty scene that I've seen. You know, here's, here's something that, that, that I've enjoyed. Here, have a look. But I, I, I've said this a few times in, in my own podcast recently, that photography is akin to storytelling, you know, and for those that also write or make music, it is akin to those creative pursuits where you're trying to share something with somebody. You're trying to share an emotion. And I think there's a lot more, for me anyway, a lot more emotional component to my imagery now than there was probably before I retired. [00:44:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Is there any, can you put your finger on that change? Like what, what sort of inspired that, that there's more feeling, there's more connection with your images, more intent. Is there something that you can draw? [00:44:47] Speaker C: I know it is interesting. A lot of photographers, and I've spoken to quite a few that are still in full time work that use photography as a form of relaxation. And yes, it's still that for me. That said, I'm also, I think being more intentional with the way that I'm looking at the images that I'm creating. As I say, both in the field, but also, you know, in the studio. But in the field, when I'm looking for something to take a photo of, it has definitely changed and I'm. Whilst I'll, you know, I'll still do a broad scene, a lot more of my stuff is actually looking at texture and trying to look at smaller, not necessarily all smaller scenes because you can still find textures in other scenes. But I'm working on a fairly long term project. It's been about three or four years now that I've been working on it, which is actually looking at texture and it's looking at textures of rock, textures of water. I'm using my drone, using intentional movement of the drone and experimenting a bit with different techniques to develop those textural elements in those images. And when I go out, I'm thinking, okay, well this is the project that I'm working on. So therefore these are the things that I am looking for, which is a little bit different to where it was. Okay, I'm here to decompress. I've had a stressful week at work. I've got the weekend I'm going to go out and take a nice sunrise, you know, at a beach somewhere. And that was really the purpose behind it. I'm now thinking more that the purpose is the creation of a body of work as opposed to the decompression. It still decompresses me. Not that I'm, you know, that's the other thing with being retired, I'm a hell of a lot less stressed than I used to be. Fair enough. [00:46:52] Speaker A: I'll. [00:46:53] Speaker B: I'll see. Is, is this the sort of work? Is this part of the collection that you were. [00:46:56] Speaker C: Yeah, so that, that is actually the, the, the, the collection as it stands at the moment. I'm still working on, on building that. But as you can see that that blends some broader scenes as well as more intimate images. So say the, the set of rocks there at the top, you know, and the one below that and immediately to the right of that and what I'm looking for there is those feelings and the textures that come across in those images. Some of these, you know, so the drone shots, they're more around trying to get A texture from a broader scene as opposed to those intimate scenes. And I'm deliberately mixing those two up because the feeling that I want to generate in it is not just, oh, here's a set of rocks or here's a small patch of water or something like that that, you know, I, I guess might gel together. It's to give you a bit of an element of difference between those images, but still following that theme of textural emotion and, and textual feeling. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Very cool. Very interesting idea for a theme and a project that. It gives you broad possibilities as well, you know, it not. [00:48:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not restricted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm giving myself a restriction of, of texture. So some, one of those ones that you were just showing there before, you know, that is going to be included in that group. So if you. I, I think when you went back to the. No, no, no. It was in the, the actual profile. Yeah, that one in the center, the bluish one with the rocks with the water flowing over at that one. Yeah. So that is very much, to me, something that's textural and will probably end up being included. Part of what I'm doing is also, I mean, that, that's from some years ago. I was in Madeira when I took that shot. And this was literally, I think a 200 meter walk from the hotel, just down on the beach. There was this rocky beach there with this concrete sort of structure that jutted out in. And I just loved the way that the waves and the rocks flowed through those grooves, which were created by rocks being dumped on top of it and then ground down over years to, to create the grooves in it. But, you know, so that, that sort of thing wasn't necessarily taken with the intention of looking at the texture, though it is the texture that attracted me at the time I took it. It wasn't something that I really deliberately thought about though. It was something, you know, in terms of the project. Because I wasn't doing the project when I first, when I took this particular image, but it is one that I would include. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that's a fair call. And I think I'm working on a project at the moment and I've been collecting images to sort of help me cement what it is that I want to achieve. But some of those images will still be included in that body of work, even though I haven't officially, you know, started a project. [00:50:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:37] Speaker A: Or started the project. I think that's. Yeah, I don't, I don't know that all projects have a Start and a finish line. [00:50:44] Speaker C: Oh, def. Definitely not that well refined. Sometimes it might take me another five years to get to a point where, okay, I'm onto something different. But yeah, at this point in time that, that's really what I've been concentrating on. So a lot of it, it, I don't exclusively photograph for that project but when I, when I've got the feeling to do it, that's, that's when I do it. And to me what you were saying there is that there doesn't have to necessarily be a finite beginning or end is also important because, you know, projects can come and go and sometimes you'll get part the way, partway through them and go. It's just, it's just not doing what I thought it was going to do. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:51:30] Speaker C: And sometimes you have to change direction to actually make it work. Work. Yeah. [00:51:37] Speaker B: Rodney Nicholson says I'm on a 50 year project. Never ends. [00:51:42] Speaker A: Yeah, indeed. [00:51:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's super interesting. I, it would be. I'd love to know more about how it all started, really. [00:51:56] Speaker C: Photography, like. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Yeah, photography and then, and then also. Yeah, yeah, you know, photography, your photography and then, and then how that evolved into landscape photography. [00:52:10] Speaker C: It started when I was about 10, probably started before I was 10. My father was in the navy and he spent in the 50s and 60s and he spent quite a bit of time overseas and he produced immense amount of slides. I've still got a, a box full of his slides. He died back in 2006 I think it was, and you know, memories of sitting in the lounge room with his slide projector, looking at those slides, looking at these still images captured from his life in the navy. And some of it was looking at, you know, scenery, some of it was people, some of it was places and sort of streetscape sort of things. He was never a professional. He loved it. He probably would have absolutely thrived in the digital photography age. But kind of 2006 it was a little, still a little bit early and he was coming to the end of his life at that point so it was never going to be something that he got into, but I think he would have absolutely, absolutely loved it. So as I say, prior to when I was 10 and I got my first camera, which was a little agformatic 110 instamatic thing, basically a pinhole camera. It had a shutter and a little slot for one of those cube flashes. Yeah, I occasionally used if I was indoors. And so yeah, at 10 years old I'd run around the, the house and the Yard and wherever we happen to be. Clicking away merrily at whatever it was, you know, whether it was the cat or the hibiscus tree in my grandmother's backyard or whatever, you know. And so seeing those images then develop was something, you know, all film had to wait a week or so, you know, while they went to the lab and then came back. The excitement of getting those as a 10 year old. Yeah, it was, it was absolutely wonderful. The photos were absolute rubbish, I think. [00:54:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:27] Speaker C: But I loved them at the time. And so that sort of then led When I went into high school. We were lucky enough to have darkroom facilities at the high school it was at. It was just a public high school, so it wasn't anything particularly special. But I love spending time in that dark room and you know, anything from a, a contact print through to actual. Bring your image in and we'll put it on the enlarger and we'll create a, an image from it. All black and white, unfortunately, because they didn't stretch to a color enlarger or color chemicals for development. But watching those images under the bathroom appear out of nothing, you know, you start with this blank piece of paper, you put it in the wall in the developer, you put it in the fixer, and then it just appears there out of nothing is just a magical experience. And that really captured me. Left school, started work. Didn't have enough money at the time when I first started for any serious camera gear. Managed to scrape together enough for this whole thing, which is still sitting up here. The old Minolta XG1 which I bought in the 80s sometime, still works. I don't use it because I don't like doing film, I don't like the chemicals. I don't have anywhere for a dark room. And I really don't want to pay too much money for getting them developed either. So I don't use it very often. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Do you have any idea what it cost when you bought it in the 80s? Can you recall at all what the price of that camera would have been? [00:56:09] Speaker C: I think with the two lenses? So I had that and I. So what's that? That's the, the 35 mil. No, sorry, a 50 mil Maryland. That. That's an actual Minolta lens. And then I had another. I can't remember who that was. That was Promura. I don't think they even make lenses anymore. And that was a 80 to 200 mil zoom. Oh, wow. So yeah. So bought those two lenses, the camera, a camera bag and a cleaning kit. I think it was down at George's in George street in Sydney. Back in, it would have been the mid-80s, I think roughly. Probably would have cost me about three or 400 bucks. Yeah, back then from, from memory, which now probably equates to about three or 4,000. I don't know, I've never done the calculation. But yeah, so I, I picked that up and then started to get not terribly serious, but a little bit more serious about it again, you know, that time and effort and wait for and never having a dark room of my own that I could, you know, develop my own images. The processing side of things really felt like it was missing for me. And yeah, I probably could have done more about doing things but at around about the same time I started my IT career because mid to late 80s was where I started in IT, about 87, I think it was. And so moving into that and moving into career, meeting my wife, starting a family, photography sat way back in the priority list. It just wasn't a, wasn't a thing. And the career that I ended up developing, you know, it was very easy for me to have a, you know, 15, 16 hour day, you know, a 70, 80 hour week sometimes. And so therefore there wasn't a lot of time for that. And so photography kind of got relegated until I got into. It was about 2000, I mean we had little happy snappers, little point and shoots that we took on holidays. I remember a waterproof one that we had, which was a bit of a revelation in around about 2007, 2009 or something, you know, because she could actually try and take really rubbish underwater photos. But it was mostly family holiday, that sort of thing. And so it wasn't primary, it wasn't a primary driver for me to get out and take photos. It was more of something that sat on the side until about 2009, 2010 when I bought my first DSLR. And that was where I thought, okay, well I'd like to do a little bit more than just the happy snaps. And yeah, the, the. At the same time I was also developing Photoshop skills as I talked about earlier. And so that then triggered the, oh, I can actually work with the images that I'm creating, create them in raw, learn what I need to learn to actually generate an image that is of some level of quality. How it came to, I can actually pinpoint the moment when it came to landscapes and that was where I sort of started. We were actually on holiday and it was a, it was a point and shoot shop. I was on the beach at Huskisson taking a walk just before sunrise. And as the sun came up, there was just this lovely shelf of cloud that sat with a nice gap above the horizon. Everything went orange and red and yellow and reflected off the water, reflected off the sand. Point perpendicular was out there at the other side of the bay, Jarvis Bay. And it was, oh, this actually feels really nice. And it was literally about the feeling of being there, the feeling of creating an image or a set of images that I actually didn't mind. You know, when I look at them now, they're all right, not as competition, but the color and that, that reflection and the moment in itself captured a feeling and a memory for me that I kind of wanted to repeat. And so from there then getting hold of the dslr, I then started to look at. Okay, so what do I need to learn both in the field and you know, in the post processing side of things to get myself to a level where I am happy with what I'm taking and feel, you know, interested enough to make this something that I'm going to do more regularly. And so during that period I kind of just worked on technique, learned the camera, learned it was a Canon, I think it was just an entry level 500D or something, you know, and then bought better glass as, you know, things progressed and I felt more comfortable in investing in it. And I would say to anyone, if you can invest in your glass more than anything the camera body itself. I've, I've still got some really good shots from that 2010, 11, 12 to sort of 15 period that came out of that 500d that I think are actually really good quality, crisp images. A lot was because of the glass that it was using and getting the focus right, getting the technique right. There's a lot of, a lot of dross from those times as well because it was about learning. And I guess interestingly enough the IT career assisted in that because there was a number of things around learning and training myself and looking at things not just from a technical perspective, but looking at things from a managerial perspective in terms of managing myself and what I was doing to learn that stuff and get to a point where I was comfortable and kind of knew what I was doing. So round about that 2015 period was where things sort of started to gel a little bit and invested in better gear. Got a 6D Mark II I think in 20. When was that? 2016 or 17, I think roughly. I can't remember exactly the year that I bought it, Bought a little bit more good glass and you know, basically things Went from there. And I, I decided, okay, well, this is something that I want to do much more seriously and in a much more considered way. As I say still, it was very much a decompression and stress release at that time, but it was also doing it in a more considered way until I got to 2021 and decided, okay, really going to sort of ramp things up and it's going to be a retirement career for me. [01:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah, looking back on that, that period where you sort of became more familiar with photography and learned more of the techniques and skills, you know, leading into that point where you're, you were sort of shooting with a lot more intent. Is it, when you look back, are there any things that you can pinpoint as like a, a breakthrough or a turning point? You know, was it a particular, maybe buying your first wide angle lens or something? Or was it a workshop that you went on or a YouTube video that you watched that explained a technique or something? Is there anything you look back where it's like, oh, now it's, it's really starting to click? [01:04:53] Speaker C: Yeah, probably when I started following Jimmy McIntyre and ended up grabbing hold of his Photoshop tools, his, his plugin, which is a bit more, it's more of a module than a plugin and unfortunately it doesn't work in affinity, so it's one of the ones that doesn't work. But that's okay because I found ways around but learning the exposure bracketing process and because particularly with the 500D, slightly less so. But even with the 6D Mark II, your dynamic range was still very much an issue in doing Seascape and sunrise photography because you know, you're talking about deep, deep shadows, bright, bright highlights and your camera, one exposure isn't going to cut it. So moving that to three or even five exposures to give you the dynamic range that you need and the tonal range in between some of those stops. So started out looking okay, well, if I go to one stop or what does that do? Go to a third of a stop, what does that do? And I found for me the best technique was doing five exposures a third of a stop apart, with the brightest exposure being about 11 2/3 and the darkest exposure being about 2. I think it was nearly 2 3rd, 2 stops down, almost, not quite, but almost 2 stops down. So 1, 11 2/3 down or something and basically taking intervals within there. But learning that and experimenting and getting better, you know, starting with three shots and going, yeah, it's not bad. And I can get results that I'm happy with but learning that technique I think really a taught me a lot about Photoshop and its capabilities in terms of blending. But, but it also taught me a lot about the field work and you know, relaxing, taking more time over an image and spending time pulling together something that is going to end up as something that I can work on in the studio. So doing that with intent in the field in the first place, you've got to kind when you're doing exposure bracketing or, or if you're doing focus stacking or something like that, you've got to know what you're thinking about doing in the post production studio while you're in the field. So you've got to know, okay, well I'm going to use this, this and this for these elements in that image. And combining the two of focus stacking and exposure blending then means you might actually end up with 15 images that you're then trying to stitch together, which is a skill in itself using blending and panorama stitching. So getting your blends together so that you've got the individual images ready to then to stitch so that you've got consistent light across that panorama and when you stitch it you don't have those weird artifacts of, you know, a line sort of where the automated panorama stitches it together poorly, you know, so learning those sorts of techniques was really where things started to click for me and I, you know, so they were the technical aspects but for me they were all about a creative goal that I wanted to get to was okay, well I want to take even light, I want focal depth front to back, I want all of those things in my images. So how am I going to go about learning what I need to do to achieve that? And it was looking at images on, you know, other People's images on 500 pixels or whatever, you know, Flickr, whatever was around at the time when I was getting into that and then finding people like Jimmy McIntyre who I think he's stopped doing photography, owns a cafe up in Newcastle in the UK now. So yeah, but you know, looking, looking at his videos, getting old of his tool and, and starting to utilize those, those features really changed the game for me. They, they were probably, interestingly enough, now that I've shifted, I've got a R6 mark two. I'm doing less blending than I used to have to still might have to do a focus stack, but I'm doing a hell of a lot less exposure blending simply because the dynamic range on that camera is far better and also the editing tools are far better at dealing with that dynamic range and dealing with noise in the shadows and so forth. [01:09:59] Speaker A: Yes. [01:10:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:01] Speaker B: So you went from the 6d mark 2 to the straight to the R6 mark 2. Was that the. Do you upgraded to mirrorless at that point? So you, you held off quite a while. [01:10:15] Speaker C: I was on the, I was on the 6D Mark II for from about as I say, 2016. I think I got it thereabouts through until last year. Was it last year? 2024? 2024. I, I shifted to the mirrorless. [01:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah. That's a good run out of a camera. [01:10:34] Speaker C: Oh yeah. And it's, it still goes strong. It still takes great shots. Yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's, it does a great job and I, I had a, an issue that I had to put the, the R6 in to Canon to get looked at and so I had Nothing but the 6D for a couple of weeks to, to work with. So you know, it's a nice backstop to have. [01:11:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:08] Speaker A: How did you find that transition from DSLR to mirrorless? Was there any, any hurdles there for you? Because you know we, we speak to obviously as you do, we speak to a lot of photographers and sometimes it amazes us that they're still running older DSLR kits because it's, it's a tool and it does the job and they've invested in the glass and there's an ecosystem there that they're so familiar with even sometimes. [01:11:31] Speaker B: Greg, would you say sometimes that the. Almost. This is a very generalization but the better the photographer, the more likely they are to hold out a little bit longer? [01:11:40] Speaker A: It has seemed that way. Yeah. Yeah. [01:11:43] Speaker C: I won't say I'm one of the best, but it's definitely for me, I mean part of it, part of it was economics. You know, can, can I spring the, you know, three and a half grand or whatever it is now to, to get a body. Note that when I shifted to the R6 I'm still using my EF lenses so I'm not, I, I haven't shifted entirely to the, the mirrorless. I, I do know and I've used and played around with some of the, the RF lenses and I know that there's for certain types of photography certain benefits in using them with the, the R system. But to be honest, one of the interesting revelations I found the, the, the adapter Canon GET gives you to put on the front which I think it's only like A$200 add on or something that is pretty much permanently strapped to my McCannon. Yeah. R6 also takes EFS lenses as well as the AF lenses. So some of the lenses that I got. So I've actually got a, I bought a, a 10 to 50 EFS lens. Sorry, no, what was it, 10 to 18 or something? It's so it's ultra ultra wide lens. So I can now strap that onto a full frame which I was never able to do with the, the 6D. [01:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:21] Speaker C: Simply because the, the adapter wouldn't, wouldn't connect. So the FS system wasn't designed to go on a full frame, it was designed for crop. But the results I get out of that are interesting because it's just something that wasn't really designed to work together but now can actually given. Given me a loophole where I can use an old ultra ultra wide lens. And it is interesting. You do get a little bar barreling on the, the outskirts of the image, but if you know what you're doing in Photoshop, it's not that hard to you know, stretch that out and, and give you nice straight verticals if, if you need them. Yeah. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Hey Justin, question for you. Yeah, you're, you're a Canon shooter. You shoot mirrorless. Do, do you ever adapt older AF lenses? [01:14:17] Speaker B: I did at the start. My plan was actually to run when I first switched to Canon from. Sorry, switched back to Canon from Nikon and went full mirrorless. I dabbled in mirrorless a little bit with Nikon and then when I went to go full mirrorless I went back to Canon because they're awesome and I, my plan was to get the R5 and a couple of like my, my key lenses, zoom lenses and then I was just going to adapt. I was going to have a backup camera in an. What was I gonna have? I've got a few old Canon DSLRs and I got myself a 5D Mark III as a. As just an old backup and I was just going to run one main body and then the backup. And I had so much Trouble using the 5D Mark III as a backup despite the fact that I used to shoot weddings with them all the time. I thought it would be just easy peasy, but I found it to be that the image quality for the way that I like to shoot. You would have experienced grant the difference in the shadow recovery ability in those older Canon sensors, the banding that you would get in the shadows and stuff like that. I used to shoot around that. And after shooting Nikon for so long and then having the Canon R5, I just become so used to the abilities that I had in those files. And going backwards was. Was difficult for me, especially using it as a backup. I found my mindset had to change completely if I picked up that camera. And I was like, this is. This can't work. Anyway. Long story short, Greg, once I decided I probably need a second mirrorless body, I can't work with this older DSLR as my backup, I quickly decided that the RF lenses do have a lot of benefit. And I don't like using adapters and having a mixture. So it's different if all of you like. Grant, if all of your lenses are efs, you just have the adapter on your body all the time. That's one thing very. Yeah, I was using a hybrid. Sometimes I need the adapter, sometimes I don't need the adapter. What lens is the adapter on? You know, and it just was, it was, it was confusing. [01:16:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I can get. And I, I think I will struggle when I get my first RF lens. [01:16:35] Speaker B: If I. [01:16:36] Speaker C: To be honest. [01:16:38] Speaker B: Yeah, you. It'll. It might. Yeah, might open a can of worms. So make sure when you do, you're ready to. To, I don't know, start working through all of them. [01:16:50] Speaker C: I, I actually, I think I've got it here. I also have this little tacker on the. On the side which makes on and off. So, yeah, I. You use this on the, on the tripod. So if I want to go vertical. Yeah, I just do that. [01:17:08] Speaker A: That's great. [01:17:10] Speaker B: That's very cool. [01:17:11] Speaker C: Just, I, you know, I, I sell these on my. On my website. Not the cameras, the. [01:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. [01:17:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:21] Speaker A: Grant, what does it take for, you know, a landscape photographer or someone in. I mean. Let me start again. We've interviewed other guests in the past. I think Richard Taddy has a store on his page for products. Is it Richard? It was, wasn't it? [01:17:35] Speaker C: There's. [01:17:35] Speaker B: There's a few that have had. And I think it's. It's usually with the same group of brands and products that offer that ability, particularly for. So it'll usually be nissi. Yeah, Nissi. What are they, the tripods that Leophoto. Leophoto, maybe. Is it those same. [01:17:54] Speaker A: Mostly, yeah. [01:17:56] Speaker C: Pixel One. Pixel One, sort of. They're the distributor of. They used to be Sarui. I think they're still nissi and so forth. I don't, I don't sell the Nissi because I don't use them. I actually use case, but I don't sell case filters, so I don't sell any filters. At all. But yeah, to hook up with those guys, fairly easy. Send them an email said I've got a website I'm interested in, you know, doing affiliate sales and so forth. And the way that it works is they actually do the drop shipping for you. So you take the money, you then order it on their wholesalers website. They then do the drop shipping. It's a no brainer and it's easy. The hardest thing about it is manually updating when products are removed from stock. So you've got to keep up to date. And I've occasionally been a bit slow and been caught by people wanting to buy something that is now no longer in stock. So I've then had to remove it and apologize refund money on a couple of occasions. It's only happened a couple of times but so from. You've got to keep up with that. [01:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's fair because you don't want to misrepresent the brand either because they oh absolutely not represent their product, you know, correctly and purposefully. A follow up question to that then is, and I don't need specifics but maybe just a ballpark percentage of the money that you make with your photography. What sort of percentage does product sales take up? [01:19:35] Speaker C: Pretty small. It would probably be on an average year maybe 1 or 2%. Most of the money comes from, well was until I stopped doing it, most of it was coming from doing workshops. And so this year and next year the money's coming out of my super and savings to tide me over until we get to the point where I can sell this place and we've moved in up the coast. But yeah, so as I said, don't make a lot of money. I noticed good old Podbean who are at my podcast service provider, they do all the distribution out to all of the various podcast services. They've actually stopped and I believe I've inquired with them but they gave me a really wishy washy answer. I believe they've stopped advertising revenue for Australian based podcasters because of the government's under 16s regulations or whatever it is that the legislation that they put in. I'm still struggling to work out how that advertising and that works for them to, to do that. It's that that in itself is a little bit of a dent but it's, I mean it was again that that was a, a less than 1% part of the, the overall revenue stream anyway. So. Well it wasn't, wasn't a big deal for me, but it was. Yeah, I can see bigger name Podcasts, that would be. Yeah, could be an issue where podcasting is their, their main source. Revenue. [01:21:32] Speaker B: Not, not a problem for us, is it, Greg? [01:21:35] Speaker C: No, [01:21:39] Speaker B: currently our 0% of our revenue is from podcast ads. But hey, we'll get there. We'll get there eventually. [01:21:47] Speaker C: Definitely will. [01:21:49] Speaker B: Is that, is this a good. Actually, this is a good segue into an ad for our sponsor because otherwise we won't get any sponsorship money this week. This episode is actually brought to you by Luckystraps.com where you can buy an amazing leather camera strap. You can get anything you want. You can get a wrist strap, you can get a nice slim strap for something like a Fujifilm X100. Or you can get a big padded, lovely Deluxe 45 camera strap for carrying around a, I don't know, an R5 Mark II with that, that delicious 28-70 f2 lens that grant might want to buy one day when he decides to switch from his EF lenses to RF lenses. So, yeah, anything you like. Jump on Luckystraps.com. check it out. Leather made here in Australia, quick release system. And you can use code Greg for 15% off. But even better, use Code Justin for the same 15% off. But we just have a bit of a race going about whose code gets used more. [01:22:50] Speaker A: Use Code Greg. So, yeah, and also don't forget. Sorry, Justin. [01:22:54] Speaker B: No, that's it. That's ad done. You go. [01:22:56] Speaker A: Oh no. Okay, we'll leave it at that then. [01:22:59] Speaker B: Sure. [01:23:00] Speaker A: I have notes, but we'll talk about. [01:23:02] Speaker B: You've got notes. Anyway, that's how we do our ads and yeah, we pay ourselves for them. [01:23:13] Speaker C: I, I do the. Do the odd ads and I've done. Done the odd ad in the, in the podcast where I'd do a raid for, for somebody. I did one a while back for a. It was actually a software backup company syncback that I, I still use. That's how I move stuff in my backup up to thing. And yeah, you just do a raid, they give me some money. That's nice. Yeah, not much that. [01:23:41] Speaker B: Dan. Greg, let's, let's ask Sync back if they'll give us money. We'll just say Grant told us that you might give us money if we read your thing. [01:23:53] Speaker C: I would recommend asking anybody you can think of if it is in any way photography related. Ask them. You might not get anything. I mean, I've had the odd trinket from case where they've sent me a, a set of filters or something, which has been nice. But mostly, mostly getting paid is a tough thing. In. In podcast. [01:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, we, we. We're fueled by Joe Rogan. Yeah, well, that's true. We're fueled by likes and. And subscribes and. And comments in the live chat. That's what keeps us going. Oh, actually, we got a really nice comment, Greg. This is probably. This is an ad for the podcast. Actually right now, this comment. I'm going to find it. Where is this one? This was on Craig Witchens. Did you see this comment at all, Greg? From Craig Interview. My very. This is from Maya Hall. My very favorite episode of the podcast so far. The most amazing backstory. What a life Craig has had. Justin and Greg should also be complimented on how they conduct their Thursday interviews. They listen, they give their guests space to talk. They prepare and research. They ask insightful questions and they are kind. It makes great viewing. Photography Walks for Wellness is an ingenious and I hope it goes global. I was supposed to be working from home on Thursday, but I couldn't stop dipping into this episode. Look forward to part two. Thank you for a very special episode. I was like, yep, that's all we need. We need comments like that. That'll keep us going for another hundred episodes. That's all you know, that's all you need. [01:25:28] Speaker C: I love a comic like that. [01:25:30] Speaker B: Isn't it good? It's real good to know that someone's got some value out of it. And it was, it's, you know, it was all worth it. [01:25:36] Speaker C: So, yeah, absolutely. [01:25:39] Speaker A: With the business of landscape photography, I've got a couple of questions for you. Not the business of, but just the. The process for you. You've traveled the world quite extensively. [01:25:50] Speaker C: Sure. [01:25:50] Speaker A: You've shot landscapes, seascapes, cityscapes, every sort of scape. Not a scapegoat. I haven't seen a single scapegoat in your work. [01:25:59] Speaker C: Don't see a lot of them about. No. [01:26:02] Speaker A: They tend to hide in the shadows. What's been the most interesting but challenging or fascinating but challenging location that you had to shoot? Oh, and talk us through that process of. What were those pain points? [01:26:21] Speaker C: Tough to say. The most challenging. [01:26:22] Speaker A: Probably [01:26:25] Speaker C: ones where I've had to hike for a long time to get to where I wanted to take a photo and then have to hike all the way back and actually I can think of one. It's one that I haven't been back to and it's probably because I. I don't like the. The feeling of it. But it was in one of the national parks here in Australia and I was up for the hike in and the hike Back the hike down wasn't too bad. Not terribly arduous in terms of slope and elevation, but around about 10Ks in and 10K's out. So, you know, a good chunk of time required to get there and. And get back out. And I got down to the waterfall and which was the objective was to go and take shots of this particular waterfall and got the tripod out, got the camera out and looked at the bottom of the camera and realized I'd left the shoe for the tripod head at home on a different body. [01:27:38] Speaker A: Oh, no, no. [01:27:40] Speaker C: So it was all right, well, I'm here. I'll do what I can with some SoR handheld, balance it on the tripod as best I can and keep it as steady as I can to get it down to about a quarter of a second or whatever. And I think this was in the. The 6D mark II days. And yeah, and then I hiked back out. So that, that was definitely challenging. And I was kicking myself all the way up the hill coming back out. It wasn't a lot of fun. And so yeah, probably one of my least successful. [01:28:18] Speaker B: Did I hear on one of your. It might have even been on your first podcast episode, introducing the podcast that you've also. You've killed some cameras or during some photography sessions. [01:28:32] Speaker C: The 6D Mark 2 is Mark 2.3 or 2.4 for me. So the innards of that have been changed three times simply because of salt and. Or salt water incursion into the body. And a lot of it is just being in the wrong place, not paying attention to where the waves are or a particular wave doing something that none of the other waves that I'd stood there watching was doing. I remember one. One instance wasn't the first one. I think this was the second time it happened. I was down at Coogee, down at the. I forget the name of it. Ross something or other pool, which is on the. The southern edge of Coogee Beach. And there's a sea wall that I was sort of standing with the sea wall behind me and waves coming up over the. The side of the pool, the rock pool. And this particular wave came up, hit my ankles, bottom of the tripod, the back of the sea wall at the base just went up and over and dumped a shed load of water all over me. The camera. The camera and everything. So that. That was as I say, I think the second time that the. The body needed to go into canon and get a new set of innards. Basically. Yeah, new new heart and lung and brain transplant And I think I did it. Did another one at Foresters beach, [01:30:16] Speaker A: which [01:30:19] Speaker C: I can't remember if that was the first one, but the worst one was actually where not only did the camera carcat, but also broke a 24. Any lens that I had on the front of it, which was not fun because the tripod basically sunk down in the sand as a wave came through and the whole thing just fell forward right in front of me and before I could lean over and grab it, the lens hit first, broke and then the camera fell over into the water. So. Yeah. [01:30:55] Speaker A: Insensible injury. [01:30:57] Speaker C: Yeah. But that's concerned if you're not getting wet and your gear's not getting wet, then you're not seascaping, you know. [01:31:06] Speaker B: Yep, I like it. [01:31:08] Speaker A: That's fair. It is a tool. [01:31:10] Speaker C: And you know, insurance, that's what insurance is for. And my insurance company probably doesn't like it, but that's, that's what it's for. [01:31:19] Speaker B: Do you use photographic, like specific photography insurance or is it just with your like home and contents or. [01:31:25] Speaker C: Part of my home contents insurance. Yeah. So they, they have portable items coverage which I pick the box for. So I pay a premium for it, so. But so far it's been worth it three times. Yeah, it makes sense, doesn't it? [01:31:43] Speaker A: It certainly makes sense because, you know, our gear is very. Gear's not cheap. [01:31:48] Speaker B: No. [01:31:48] Speaker A: And for some people that's all they can afford. Maybe the one camera and two lenses. And then, you know, the idea of having to replace it should something go wrong is just catastrophic for them financially. [01:31:59] Speaker C: So a little bit of insurance each [01:32:00] Speaker A: month makes it makes a difference. [01:32:03] Speaker C: Absolutely. I've been lucky in that it was actually just the innards of the camera. So the sensors, it's still, as far as I'm aware. Well, it might actually be a different sensor because the. I think that's attached to the main board on the camera, but it's the main board and sensor which gets. Has been changed out three times. Yeah. And basically, I mean, when I say I've used insurance, it's. So it's not a complete new camera cost, but I think it was about the last time it happened was about 800 bucks to get it done. [01:32:41] Speaker B: Right. [01:32:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So it wasn't. Wasn't hugely expensive, but it's expensive enough to deal with the insurance and get them to pay the 800 bucks rather than me. Yeah, yeah. [01:32:56] Speaker A: Makes sense. [01:32:57] Speaker B: It sounds like it could be a Canon issue. Bruce Moyle says falling into a river with my Canon was why I ended up switching to Sony. So it could be, I don't know whether maybe canons inherently poorly balanced or disrupt the way that you walk. They might be attracted to water, but there definitely seems to be a pattern. [01:33:17] Speaker C: Yeah, it could be. Right. [01:33:19] Speaker B: We'll continue to investigate security. [01:33:21] Speaker A: Maybe that's what it is. [01:33:23] Speaker B: Maybe. Speaking of patterns, you've interviewed over 200 landscape photographers. [01:33:30] Speaker C: I did my 245th interview yesterday. [01:33:34] Speaker B: Insane. Crazy. [01:33:38] Speaker C: I'm about five, five or six weeks away from releasing that one because. Okay, yeah, I, I keep around about a five or six week body in backlog. Yeah, well, it allows me then to go away on trips when I want to. So. Yeah, I just, we can't. It's one of the reasons why I don't do them live. [01:34:03] Speaker B: Greg and I are never going away ever again. Yeah, actually I can go away, I can go away between Tuesday morning and Wednesday evening. That's my like window. And then again Friday to Monday morning. That's not true. I'm going to try and podcast from Bali this year. We'll see how that goes. Sorry for the terrible Internet when it happens. What I was going to say is. Okay, so you've interviewed 245 landscape photographers. Is there any patterns that you've seen amongst landscape photographers that create amazing images? Is there any personality traits, gear choices, just anything that comes to mind that you've seen regularly amongst your guests? [01:34:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there is definitely an affinity with nature. That's probably the one common theme that I've found. Though I have also spoken to cityscape photographers that aren't about nature in their, in a lot of their photography. So I've also. One, one, the one I did last night was actually a wildlife photographer, but who uses landscape as part of the composition. So they're not always, they do the, the close up portrait shots of your leopards and zebra and whatever, but they will also do, you know, giraffes with storm clouds behind them and you know, those sorts of things. So it, it's more than just one particular genre. That's because I, I take a view with the podcast that landscapes cover everything from nature and wilderness, but maybe incorporating other elements through to man made landscapes. And for me, even some street photography where the focus is largely on the streetscape might have people passing through it as a small part of that. But you know, as far as I'm concerned, it's all landscape, regardless of, you know, minor tweaks. So I take a very broad view of the landscape. And I have interviewed one or two portrait photographers as well, simply to get their perspective on the way that some of those functions that you do in the studio could be potentially taken out into. Into the field. With landscapes, anyway, that. That said, in terms of commonalities, the. The one key thing is, is being affinity with nature, probably also the intentionality and the shift of a lot of photographers from broad, grand landscapes to more intimate. A lot of photographers I've spoken to start out with that broader view. You know, I want to go to the. The biggest vistas I can find, the most amazing scenes, and then they've work their way down to, okay, well, I'm gonna take a patch of stone or, you know, a piece of creek that is, you know, a foot and a half wide. [01:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:26] Speaker C: But still. Still making something artistic about it. And one of the things I always like to ask the. The people that come on the podcast is where the art starts for them, where they sort of shifted from that broader documentary style of photography to something more artistic, where they're starting to think about their photography differently from, okay, I'm here. I'm capturing a scene. Because a lot of people, it's not everyone that I've spoken to. Some people start as artists and photography then becomes something that is embedded in their practice. But other people, you know, they start out and they're, you know, on holidays like I was, and they start taking photos and they go, oh, okay, well, this could be something. And it's that moment when this could be something turns into, now I'm deliberately doing this for an artist, an artistic, creative urge that I've got as opposed to. I'm just here and I'm taking a photo of that scene. [01:38:33] Speaker A: And do you think that's the reason why you see so many landscape photographers going from the big vistas down to intimate details in landscape? [01:38:41] Speaker C: I think so, yeah. [01:38:42] Speaker A: They've sort of reached a point of maybe understanding their craft a bit better, and it's time to now really lean into the artistic pursuit of it. Or is it that they become burnt out by just too many vistas? You know, where do they land? [01:38:57] Speaker C: It's kind of a bit of both. One of the things with, you know, unless you're willing to go through some fairly strenuous hiking, it's really hard to find remote places that haven't been photographed. I was talking to an Alaskan photographer who does exactly that. You know, they've got to get in a bush aircraft and fly for three and a half hours into some little valley that nobody's ever set foot in before and get out and then hike for you know, 20 k's to get to a point where they founder whatever it was that they might have found on Google Earth, you know, so you do find people that are still doing that sort of thing where they're looking for something unique. And I think it is that desire to find uniqueness in the world is one of the, that that's probably also one of the, the strongest themes that I've found with all of the people that I've spoken to is that they're all trying to do something that is theirs and that they can make their own. You know, it's the same with me even here. I, I don't shoot a lot around Sydney Harbour much anymore. Unless I'm going to do something that is a little bit more deliberate and potentially intimate. Because it's bloody hard to find a really interesting and unique shot of somewhere like the Sydney Opera House or the, the Harbour Bridge. It's, you know, it's been over photographed and finding something unique in that is a challenge. And so yes, I've done that as a challenge for myself. But it's also one of those things that I think as you grow artistically, you start to think about things in different ways and start to go, okay, well been there, done that. It's now time to look for something different. And whether it's something that's more intimate or something that is just unique because you were going somewhere that nobody's ever been, you know, you do start to make those things your own. And I think there, that comment from School of Light, that's when it's become art, when you make it your own. I know it sounds like a cliche, but it is very true. It is really what makes it art is the fact that you have made it your own and it's something that nobody else is actually doing or thinking about doing. [01:41:23] Speaker B: Matt Palmer in the comment as well. Good to see you, Matt. Long time. No, no, no, see, hope you're doing well. Says the Sydney Opera House is an example I use when teaching uniqueness in photography. It makes for a great example. [01:41:35] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. It is still possible to do. It's hard and you've got to think about it and you've got to look at it in different ways than just, oh, here's the Sydney Opera House from whatever angle you happen to be standing at. You know, you've really got to, you really got to think about trying to do something unique. And there are, I, I've seen a few recently where people have successfully done that with things like the Opera House. Where you look at it and go, oh, I know where that is. But you know, when you first look at it, you've got to sit and look at it for a minute before you go, I, I know where that is. And so it's really about doing things like that that I think a lot of people and you know, this is where doing the podcast has been very helpful in my own practice artistically, is thinking about what I'm doing differently and trying to do different things. You know, things like intentional drone movement, for example. It's not something that I picked up off the podcast, but it's something that I, it came from thinking about. Okay, well, how can I mix this up? Because, you know, I can do a top down shot of something, but that's just the top down shot of it. Yes, it's a unique angle, but how do I, how do I twist that even more? And so, you know, if you're doing a top down shot, rotating the drone or lifting the drone up, actually moving the drone whilst you've got it on a two second, you know, use a filter, use a two second or more exposure and get something that is completely unique because nobody's doing a lot of that because most people, they just hover the drone, click, done, move on. [01:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great example because you're right, I haven't seen many people and there's some beautiful drone work out there, but I haven't really seen people do intentional blur on a, on a draw. Have you, Justin? [01:43:41] Speaker B: No, not, not from what I've seen. [01:43:43] Speaker A: Really? Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting approach. [01:43:46] Speaker C: Yeah. In fact, two of, two of the images in that textures collection are doing exactly that. One is using that rotation, so the rotation on the horizontal plane. And the other one is using a little bit of zoom blur by lifting the, the drone. And you can get a different effect by dropping the drone as well. So you get it up to its max height and you, or wherever you get. So there's a, an example of the, the zoom blur, for example. So that's, that's Camel Rock. And everyone in New South Wales, anyway that has shot Camel Rock would probably not recognize that as Camel Rock until they actually go, oh, I know which bit of the rock that is. It would take you a bit of time to think about it and go, oh, that's, that's Camel Rock, but from a, from a different angle. But be doing it in a way that not many other people have thought about doing it. [01:44:47] Speaker B: Love it. Yeah, I want to. This has Been a common theme on our show lately and I want to get your thoughts on it because you're a landscape photographer, you're on, you're on the socials, you're on the YouTubes, you've got a website, but you also speak to a ton of other landscape photographers and other photographers. What are your thoughts on where we're displaying our photography at the moment and where's that going in the future? Because you've mentioned 500px from back in the day, you mentioned Flickr, which I actually just made an account on this week to have a play with that and see if it might be useful for the podcast in the future. Where are we putting our photos as photographers now and into the future? [01:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I think unfortunately the. And I say unfortunately for a reason, which I'll come to, but I think unfortunately we're kind of stuck in that social media grip at the moment. There are, I think the only one that comes close to what I'd like to see is Glass, but they're charging people to get started in it and it's kind of like, well, there's, there's a hurdle to entry which a lot of people are just not going to jump over. And I personally have not jumped over it for that, that very reason. I'm not going to pay to share my images. I'm sharing because I want to share. I'm sharing for free where I can, because I can share for free, not because this, this particular one is better or worse than others. But I think that's probably going to continue. I've mentioned it on, on a few episodes recently that, and I've just started some work on investigating whether or not I can make this viable or not. But I'd like to see social media which has no likes, you can only comment. And so you post your image, which is pretty much how Glass works. You. There are no likes, you can only comment and who you follow is who you see. So you've got to go hunting. Yes, but if you can get something that does that, then you will see a feed of things that interest you as opposed to suggested rubbish and adverts, trying to do it with adverts, then how do you fund it, etc. Etc. So these are some of the things that I'm exploring, but one, one of the things that I think we're, we're missing that I, I will hark back to the olden days being an old bloke like I am was bulletin board and forums. I, I think Matt might have been There part of the Australian Photography Forum back in the day. I seem to remember Matt Palmer being there, but there were, there was a bunch of other photographers there that were both really good photographers, really keen to share not only their images, but their knowledge, but also their critique. And there were sections in there where you could actually spend time and critique other people's images and get critique of your own images. And that had two really positive effects in my opinion, where not only did you learn more from as a photographer, having your images critiqued so you could improve or get some rubbish comments that didn't really help you because your intent might have been different to what, what the viewer's intent was, but it also taught you and taught me anyway how to critique better as well, and also then what to look for, not just from a technical perspective, but also from a creative perspective and work on how you could actually sort out your artistic intent and display that better. And so things forums like that, which I don't know whether that still exists, it's been many years since I, I took a look at it, but those sorts of environments I don't think exist as much today as they used to back in the early 2000s when these sorts of bulletin board style forums were around. And I think, you know, those forums of like minded people, whilst they are sort of more closed communities because you have to log in to get there and see the images and see what's going on, were very positive spaces because of the community that had grown up around them. And I think that's one of the things that kind of is missing in the broader social media perspective. Will we go back to that? I don't know. I, I really struggle to work out what the future of. I, I don't think that things like Instagram are the future for stills photography because they kind of turn their back on it and the algorithms doing whatever the algorithm's doing. And a lot of what I hear about that is that people aren't happy because their images aren't getting shared to the people that are following them, that want to see their images. And you know, so it's really, it's really tough when you kind of flip the table and people are sitting there going, yeah, well I'm doing what I've always done, but now you've changed the game and now the people that follow me for what I do can't see what I do. And you know, that's not a personal whinge. I, I kind of stopped worrying about, you know, likes and all that sort of thing. A few years ago because I just don't see the point in worrying about it. I'd much rather engage with somebody on social media with both their photography and mine, when they've got something to say that's a little bit more than nice shot, Grant. You know, to me that, that's great and I will comment back and say thank you very much, great, thank you for commenting. But you know, for me, I, I, I'd like a little bit more because I am, as I said at the beginning, trying to share what I'm doing as a bit of a story. And it might be a story about textures, it might be a story about this place that I've been, but that sharing is the reason for what I'm doing and therefore I'm wanting to get people that follow me to see what I'm doing. So I, I, I think Instagram is, you know, just not, not much chop the crop has always been a problem. The algorithm is a bigger problem. I'm not far from, you know, I've been posting a lot less there simply because of, it's hard to get that worked up about doing it there. I found more interest in places like Blue Sky, a little bit in Threads. Threads are still a little bit weird, but I like the fact that places like Blue sky don't have an algorithm. And you get to see, yes, it crushes the image slightly, but it's not, the compression isn't as bad as some of the others. It's not as bad as Facebook, for example, but you do get more engagement in terms of a conversation about your image. It's not always just the nice shot, you know, those sorts of things. And, and because it is more text based than image based, images, you know, are important to it, but you can actually generate communities and conversations there. The additional thing that I like about it is that you can actually create your own communities within there and you can actually share other people's work really easily by creating a feed that feeds other people. You subscribe to somebody's specific feed on a particular topic, landscape photography in my case, funnily enough. And you're going to see everyone that I follow that have, that I've included in that you're going to see their posts. So everyone that I've included in that list and in, in that feed is going to be shown to anyone that follows that feed. And so for me, those sorts of techniques are a better way of operating than things like instead of Instagram. I'm, as I said, I'm, you know, I'm I'm kind of this close to axing in Instagram altogether and, and getting out of that environment simply because I'm seeing less and less value in it. [01:54:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we've talked about that a number of times on the show with guests and also during our random photography show every Monday night. And I've made it very clear that if it wasn't for this, the work that we do with the Camera Life podcast and Lucky Straps, I would be off Instagram. I've lost all faith in its purpose. [01:54:29] Speaker C: I use it mostly for advertising the podcast. That's the main thing that I do with it now. [01:54:36] Speaker A: But I mean, as much as I dislike the dominance. Well, there's a couple of things. Meta has this dominance over social media and it makes it so very difficult for someone who might have something that we actually could benefit from to enter the market and be heard. [01:54:52] Speaker C: Sure. [01:54:52] Speaker A: You know, and because Meta and, you know, X are such huge platforms backed by incredibly, you know, financially well off people, they can just crush anyone that's trying to rise up in this, in, in this market space to a certain [01:55:09] Speaker C: degree, as I say, I think I, I think Blue sky has done a pretty good job of gaining traction. I think they're up. I saw some posts recently there. They're up over 43 million you active users, which is not bad. [01:55:27] Speaker A: Nothing. Yeah, it's not bad. [01:55:29] Speaker C: So, you know, it's still quite US centric in a lot of ways, but I still connect with a lot of people from the UK and other parts of the world. The, the Australian content there is a little bit light, but you know, there is some, if you, if you go looking. But again, a lot comes down to how much time you're willing to put into it. And I've. I've been spending less and less time on social media in general. Simply A, from a mental health perspective, particularly with some of the rubbish that's going on in the world at the moment. But B, also I'm busy doing other things. Like trying to get a house built and go out and take photos. [01:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. More noble pursuits. Hey, I've got a quick question for you about the house build. Did you manage to squeeze in a studio for yourself? [01:56:22] Speaker C: Sort of, yeah. There's a room similar to this that will be dedicated to editing and podcasting and so forth. So. Yes. [01:56:33] Speaker A: Nice, nice. [01:56:35] Speaker B: That's cool. That'll be fun. Yeah, you'll have to do a. You have to film a tour and put it up on the channel when you, when you. [01:56:41] Speaker C: Maybe. Yeah, the thing I'M really looking forward to is that it is about 350 meters walk from the shores of Lake Macquarie which is I think the, the biggest saltwater lake in Australia. As in it's called Fed from the Sea and has an open channel to the sea, miles and miles coastline around that and within a half hour drive there are 35 surf beaches. So. [01:57:15] Speaker B: Wow. [01:57:16] Speaker C: I'm going to be a pig in [01:57:17] Speaker B: poo, I was gonna say. Yeah, you're sorted. [01:57:21] Speaker C: Oh, I know. [01:57:22] Speaker B: I remember a question that I had. So you're obviously okay. You're going to be surrounded by just easy, not easy, quick to accessible, accessible photo locations. Are there any far flung bucket list locations that you are yet to travel to that you're sort of hoping in the coming years you're going to get, you know, somewhere across the other side of the world or Antarctica or. I don't know, is there somewhere that you've wanted to go that you haven't been yet? [01:57:52] Speaker C: Yeah, there's, there's a long list. I'd love to do Patagonia, I'd love to do Antarctica but I look at the cost of that and I kind of go [01:58:05] Speaker B: maybe swim over. Swim over. [01:58:09] Speaker C: Well it's actually the negotiation with the Minister for War and Finance that's the trouble on that. Can I go and do that on my own maybe? [01:58:21] Speaker B: The price for two is a lot. [01:58:23] Speaker A: Yeah, if I went on my own [01:58:25] Speaker C: I could do it for half the price. [01:58:27] Speaker B: That's right, yeah. I figured out a way. I found a half price deal just means only I can go. [01:58:33] Speaker C: Funnily enough she's not that keen but I mean I'd love to do Iceland but I, I think Iceland is probably somewhere that's now less interesting. I've got a trip coming up which is a bucket list trip trip in the end of April to Borneo which I'm really looking forward to, which is somewhere that I've always wanted to go and you know, explore a bit of rainforest and, and beach photography there and see what I can find. Plus the orangutan parks and those sorts of things. Though I was reading somewhere that the sanctuary there charges you with more if you have professional camera gear. [01:59:22] Speaker B: Don't take a tripod. [01:59:24] Speaker C: Well, it's, it's the lenses that you take. So you take a. I've, I've got a 70 to 200 which the intent was. I've also got a two times teleconverter that I sling on there to get a little bit more reach. So I suspect I might be just paying some More money to get in. [01:59:46] Speaker B: I was gonna say when you've made the trip, you might as well, you know, just, just suck it up and, and at least be able to take the photos that you want to take with the gear that you want to take. Well, what gear? What will you take over there? How much gear will you take? Would you pack a tripod on a trip like that? [02:00:03] Speaker C: I normally do. I normally stick that in cabin luggage and I normally take a backpack which has got everything else charging, laptop, the drone, the batteries, all of the, all of the bits and pieces required for what I feel like I want to do and at least the, the Trinity lenses. So. Well, I don't, don't actually have the Trinity because it's a 24 to 105 instead of the 24 to 70, but that's the same thing with a, with a little bit more reach on occasions. But yeah, so I normally travel with those wherever I go. But I'll probably, interestingly I'll probably drop the, the 10 to 18 in there as well to play around with some ultra wide stuff now that I know that it fits on the, on, on the front of the adapter. But yeah, it's, it's pretty much I take what I feel I can carry. So normally I'll take a, a photo backpack or photography backpack with, with the three lenses, the body, the drone and the laptop and extra batteries and filters and whatever. All of the usual accoutrements [02:01:23] Speaker A: in case. Sorry, you don't pack a second body just in case? [02:01:27] Speaker C: No, very rarely. Very rarely. Yeah. [02:01:32] Speaker B: It's odd how much you tend to drop them in salty water. [02:01:36] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Well, if I, if I do, I do. And yeah, it'll all be done with the phone then. Just so long as I make it past the, the orangutan sanctuary. That'll, that'll do me. Yeah. [02:01:49] Speaker B: Be happy. [02:01:51] Speaker A: Fair enough. Fair enough too. I'm very conscious of time. We've just hit the two hour mark. Yes. Was there any other last minute questions or last questions you wanted to. And you've got to ask the zombies question two. [02:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that was, that was, that is the thing. [02:02:05] Speaker C: Great. [02:02:06] Speaker B: If you were, if it was the end of the world zombie apocalypse, if you might say, and you had to quickly grab one camera and one lens, any camera you want, any lens you want from any time in history or your photographic journey, or a camera you haven't even owned before, what would you grab to document the zombie apocalypse? One camera, one lens. [02:02:29] Speaker C: To be honest, I don't know that I'd want to document that. It's not my. Not my kind of thing. Don't do portrait work. Okay. [02:02:35] Speaker B: All right. [02:02:36] Speaker A: Imagine more like environmental portraits. [02:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Or you want to still get some seascapes along the way as you get away from the zombies, you know, like just. [02:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it'll be. It'd be nice to play around with one of those new hassle blads. I think if. If I had one at hand and that I can. I don't probably never will, but one of them would be quite nice to play around with, I think. [02:03:06] Speaker B: And. And of. I. I don't know the Hasselblad lens system, but let's just assume that they've got zooms in the sort of wide standard and telephoto range. What one. Like what range would you grab if you just had to quickly grab one? [02:03:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I gotta. Probably something from at least 24 up to probably. I. And again I. I don't know the Hasselblade system myself, but probably up to about the. The 105 max. [02:03:34] Speaker B: Try and get that. That sort of. [02:03:38] Speaker C: If I could only do one otherwise again it'd be the trinity at the. So you can go from 16 all the way up to 200, you know. Yeah, yeah. If there was a fantasy lens that actually went from 16 to 250 had F 1.8, that'll be absolutely wonderful. But I don't think anyone's going to build one of them anytime soon. [02:03:59] Speaker B: No. Maybe one day. [02:04:01] Speaker C: Probably not. Well if they. I know if they did It'd cost you 20 or 30 grand anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, that's very true. [02:04:09] Speaker B: And weigh as much as the three lens put together. [02:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a wrap up. Jay, do you want to see if. Is there any questions in the chat? [02:04:19] Speaker B: There is. Well, yeah, I reckon the one that's here from Phil Taylor just about sort of physical print media gallery spaces, exhibitions. I think we might. And Matt's probably right, we'll save that to. For maybe a Monday night episode or something because it probably could be an entire episode in itself. That topic of like get going offline and how can we stimulate more into that world of physical. Whether it's big gallery exhibitions or shared exhibitions or magazines and zines and books and all that sort of stuff. That might be something we have to tackle on a whole another show. Cuz yeah, that's. That's a big topic but that is on my mind a lot. [02:05:05] Speaker C: I've said this on the podcast several times but what I do is I print a Book just for personal, just so that I've got a hard copy. I, I don't think a lot of photography is done until it's in hard copy, personally. So I, I print myself a personal book and it's a mix of stuff off the phone and family snapshots and whatever and holiday shots as well as some, some of the artistic stuff, you know, so I'll, I'll put the, the odd portfolio image in there that I've picked up during the year and we, we print them and instead of having the, the big old fat photo albums with plastic sleeves and everything and they're on a nicely printed book which is only about that fat instead of this fat. [02:05:48] Speaker B: You know, I think that's a, that is great advice and it's something that I keep telling myself to do and I don't make the time to do it. [02:05:54] Speaker C: But yeah, I print it often as I possibly can, if nothing else, just to see it in print. And I use the printer behind me here to print, test prints before I send anything off that needs to go to the, to the lab for printing. Because I use a couple of different places that do printing, depending on what format it is. If I'm doing a big acrylic, there's a mob that I use called the frame shop. I think they're local here in Roselands and they do a spectacular job of that large format acrylic metallic paper on, on backed onto, onto an acrylic frameless that they look really schmidt. But if I'm doing something like just a metallic paper or a cotton rag or something like that, I'll use the, well, they call themselves five something or other over on the northern beaches over at Brookvale. I'll use them. 5 magic, I think they're called. But yeah, so I, I encourage anybody to, to print if they can. [02:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's, I agree it's good advice and it's definitely something that, you know, we all strive for but sometimes it's kind of out of reach. I've just sort of looked at some work that I might get printed. Justin's going to help me out because he's got himself a nice little printer. But yeah, we agreed. You know, sometimes seeing your, seeing your work on a postage stamp size as, as it flicks through a screen is, [02:07:39] Speaker C: it's, you know, it's not as satisfying. [02:07:41] Speaker A: No, it's unacceptable. And printing, Even printing an 8 by 10, you know, every now and then, make it a ritual, make it a habit. Every Saturday you go and get an 8 by 10 printed or once a month. If you can't afford that, I think it just helps you to really appreciate your own work. [02:07:57] Speaker C: And see, I mean, I'd encourage. Even if you just go up to Kmart or Big W or whatever and use one of their print machines where you stick your USB card into it and. And print from there in, in an 8 by 10 format, for example. Yeah. Just so you can see it in print. If, if you don't have your own printer, it's a. It's a way that you can do it economically without spending the money on the printer. And the ink. The ink's the expensive bit, to be honest, in printing. [02:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think that might be a good place to tie a bow in this episode of the Camera Boss. What do you think? [02:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. [02:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:08:39] Speaker B: Should we just. I really want to make sure everyone knows where to find Grant's podcast. Where can people find your podcast, Grant? [02:08:47] Speaker C: You can find it on YouTube. Just look for Grant Swinburne photography dot com. Sorry, not dot com. But that's also where you can find it. But yeah, just look for Grant Swinburne Photography on YouTube and you can subscribe there for the video edition. Because of Google podcast going away and being incorporated into YouTube, that's also one of the places that you can find it. But pretty much anywhere that you find podcasts, if it's audio that you're wanting or only audio that you're wanting, then you can certainly find it there. You can also find it on my website, grantswinburnphotography.com so there's plenty of opportunities to find it. So Apple Podcasts, Spotify, it's pretty much everywhere you can think of. [02:09:38] Speaker A: That's good to hear. And speaking of podcasts, just while we've got everyone's attention, just a reminder that the Camera Life podcast airs live twice a week, every Monday evening, 7:30pm where we have our random photography show, where we talk about photography, news, product launches, we do our own unboxings live on the show, and we also look at your images and then every Thursday morning where we get to talk with an amazing guest and share a little bit about their story in the hopes that you gain some inspiration, some ideas and some insight. But on that note, thank you so much for joining us today, Grant. I. I've made notes, copious notes, which I don't normally do during a podcast interview, of things that, for me to consider, and I think it would be fair to say that given your experience and your tenure in the craft There's a lot to learn from. From what you offer, so we also encourage everyone to go and check out your podcast and. And do so. And subscribe. And subscribe to us, too. [02:10:36] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely subscribe to these guys and. And subscribe to me. Thanks very much for having me on the show. It's been a lot of fun, and I wish you guys all the best. And I'll definitely have to have either or both of you on the show at some point to return the favor. [02:10:56] Speaker B: Lovely. [02:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be great. Well, on that note, we're gonna. We're gonna roll the. Roll the credits, as they say. And Justin, do you want to say goodbye to some people? [02:11:06] Speaker B: I do. There's a few comments in here. Phil Thompson says a very late morning guys had computer problems. We'll have to catch up later. We can. You can catch up later on YouTube or on Apple podcasts or Spotify or everywhere. Paul says, thanks, guys. Nice to hear from you, Grant. Love your podcast, too. It's awesome. Dennis Smith says, thanks so much for your time today, Grant. Phil Taylor and Matt Palmer had a great conversation about physical prints and. And gallery work. I think we'll definitely have to dig into that on a future episode. Thanks for joining us, guys. Thanks. Paul Sutton. Who else was here today? Bruce Moyle. Thanks, Bruce. He had to duck off and probably do some work. Rodney Nicholson was here. David Mascara. Thanks, everybody. And we'll see you guys on the next one. It's gonna be a great week ahead on the podcast. [02:11:56] Speaker A: Be safe. See you guys.