How Art Therapy Transformed a Family Photography Business | Katie Phillips (EP192)

[00:00:25] Speaker A: G', day, everybody, and welcome back to the Camera Live podcast. It is Thursday, the 18th of June. It's almost tax time. That scares me, and I'm sure it scares many of you out there. Of course, being a Thursday morning, we are joined by an amazing guest today. We have family, maternity, couples, wedding, elopement, baby portraiture, photographer and art therapist Katie Phillips. Welcome to the show. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:54] Speaker A: How are you? [00:00:56] Speaker B: I'm. I'm good. As I was saying before, I've had an interesting morning. Been hobbling around on my lovely disabled broken foot. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:05] Speaker C: Well done with that rocking the moon boot. [00:01:09] Speaker B: It's great. We had to pull it out of the depths of storage, so. [00:01:12] Speaker C: Oh, you already had it? [00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I had a reconstruction in 2015. [00:01:20] Speaker A: And as much as we'd love to romanticize that, you know, you injured yourself on a shoot on a. On a mountaintop, you actually stumbled playing tennis, correct? [00:01:28] Speaker B: This time, yes, I did. [00:01:30] Speaker A: This time. Okay. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Last time it was time for a run. [00:01:34] Speaker C: And I. I believe you said you were winning tennis when you heard it. [00:01:38] Speaker A: Not. [00:01:38] Speaker C: Not just playing, but winning tennis. [00:01:40] Speaker B: I was. I won the game. [00:01:43] Speaker C: Damn. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Is that on the scoreboard or in your own head? [00:01:47] Speaker B: Definitely on the scoreboard. And then I fell, and everyone's like, oh, no, I can't remember the point, though. I won't. [00:01:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I've won that point. [00:01:57] Speaker A: I won that match. [00:01:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:02] Speaker A: That's twice now. So you've injured yourself running, you've injured yourself playing tennis. I think the universe is trying to tell you that sports is dangerous for you. [00:02:11] Speaker B: It is, apparently. But I do love it. [00:02:15] Speaker A: That's good. [00:02:16] Speaker B: I'll be back, unfortunately. [00:02:18] Speaker C: I'll be back. [00:02:19] Speaker A: I'll be back. All right, well, we look forward to seeing you back on the court. Now, of course, we are live today, and we have a live audience in the chat. If you guys are watching along, say g'. Day. If you're new here, say good day. Let us know where you're from and don't forget to give us a like. It helps out a lot. It lets YouTube know that we are worth sharing and also subscribe. Cost you nothing. [00:02:41] Speaker C: Do that. [00:02:41] Speaker A: And if you tickle the bell icon, you'll actually get a notification every time we go live. All of our podcasts are live. Yeah. On YouTubes. So. Yeah, that's right, Katie, as we like to do, I want to ask a question of you. And then we'll say good day to some people in the chat. Give them some time to wake up and finish their first coffee. A big part of. Of who you are and how you operate as a professional photographer is very heavily influenced by some key pillars of inclusivity, authenticity, body positivity, as well as advocating for equality and diversity. How do you manifest those pillars of who you are and how you work and how you, you know, face the world into your craft? [00:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really big question. Thanks for jumping in there. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Sorry, sorry. It's a scary one. [00:03:39] Speaker B: No, but it is. You're right. It is absolutely central to everything I do, whether it's photography or art therapy or just, you know, in, in general. I think one of the biggest things for me is, is representation and showing diversity within my practice and what I do. So not. Not selecting for a particular type of person, but allowing people to come to me if they feel comfortable and hopefully they feel comfort, see themselves represented within what I do. So that's probably one of the biggest things that I can outwardly show, but it's also in, I guess in. It's really. It's really tricky because it's like, it's kind of, in a way, energy attracts energy. So I mean, being a. Being a queer person myself and being, you know, a curvy girl as well, I want to show people when I step into this world that I'm a safe space because one. I know, I know that, yeah, spaces that we're talking about and being a part of that and really showing up for my community and so hopefully, you know, putting out there different education, different. Whether it's on the socials and creating reels and stuff, showing who I am so people can identify with me and not showing away from those topics if they do come up as well. Like it's something that I don't know if you saw on my Instagram. My last post was about this. Oh my gosh. The most incredible conference that I think I've ever been to and I've. I've been to a few conferences before and this one was just off the charts. It was three day conference around LGBTIQ plus aging and health. Health and aging indifference. And it was held in Canberra and. And so showing people that there are spaces, there are people who are. Oh yeah, there it is out there. Who are. And services out there and communities and spaces so that we can feel seen and heard and know that that is not all doom and gloom. I think. Am I going off topic there? [00:06:13] Speaker A: No, no, there's no such thing on this podcast. [00:06:16] Speaker B: Love it. [00:06:17] Speaker A: I think it's really interesting about, you know, you put out the energy that you receive back and I think it's wonderful, obviously, that there's, that you, you know, you're very, you're very out yourself. You're very transparent about who you are, and that flows through your work. So I imagine that gives your clients who are from a diverse spectrum, let's say, that might, that must give them a lot of confidence. [00:06:45] Speaker B: I hope so. I certainly hope so. I mean, my, my core belief is that everyone is beautiful. Everyone. No matter who you are, you're stunning. And you have a right to feel stunning and supported and seen and valid and validated. So my, my hope and dream is that if you step in front of my camera or encounter me in, you know, the professional, personal world, that you walk away from that experience feeling empowered. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a great answer. Wonderful. Before we, before we dig deeper and get further and further into the woods, Justin, you want to say good morning to some folks? [00:07:28] Speaker C: I do, I do. Because Philip Johnson was here first. As always. [00:07:32] Speaker A: As always. [00:07:32] Speaker C: Good morning, Philip. As always. Roddy Nicholson, not far behind. Good morning, Lucinda Goodwin. Good morning, Felicity Johnson. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Nick. [00:07:40] Speaker C: Which Nick is this? I'm not sure. Nick. Qw2zh. But either way. Hey, Nick. Phil Thompson's Lisa Leach. Craig Alif. Craig Alif. Robert Varna from New Jersey, usa. And Tristan X. Good to see you. If anyone else is out there, let us know. Let us know where you're from. It's good to find out other people from around the world because they don't have, you know, if you're in the usa. I don't think their tax time is June, so I don't have to. They don't have these worries we've got right now that we. Things like stock taking. I don't know, will we get a big bill? Those kind of things. [00:08:14] Speaker A: I mean, you had ASIO chasing you only a few days ago, Justin, so, [00:08:18] Speaker C: you know, that's an unfounded rumor. That's not why I went to Bali. Anyway. Oh, and I got Craig's name right. That's awesome. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Thanks, Craig. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. [00:08:32] Speaker C: I should also mention too, just to. Just to tick the sponsorship box on Luckystraps.com, we just restocked a heap of our best selling color, which is the black and wine. I saw one. I have one. [00:08:45] Speaker A: You must. [00:08:46] Speaker C: Well, surely it's the same color that we used when we did these Canon limited edition Canon straps for the R5 launch that you can't buy. So don't ask for one of these, please. Not the Canon ones, but this color with the black and white. They're all back in stock in. In all the different sizes. So if you've been waiting on Those, go to Luckystraps.com. [00:09:06] Speaker A: yeah, and use code Greg. You'll get a discount. You're welcome. You're welcome. Anyway, let's talk more about you and less about Justin's desire for world domination. Let's roll back. Let's. Let's roll back the clock a bit and talk about earliest influences. Now, I know that we talked before we went live. You grew up, technically grew up in the snowy mountains surrounded by amazing nature, but you also were in. Did you say it was Sydney in boarding school? [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I went to boarding school at the age of 12. [00:09:42] Speaker A: Sorry, cut out. Say that bit again. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. I went to boarding school at the age of 12 in Sydney. [00:09:48] Speaker A: Right, okay. [00:09:50] Speaker C: How. [00:09:51] Speaker A: How did that experience shape who you became as a visual creative? Did it have any. Any influence on that or were there particular people that inspired you or influenced you to. To take this path into becoming a photographer? [00:10:06] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah, it was. I was heavily influenced by that. That experience. It was. I mean, I went at the age of 12, so I was very little. And I went. [00:10:19] Speaker C: Was it scary, like when you were, when you were. How did that. Was there a. Did you know, like, say a year before or like, how long before did you know and was that lead up to it? Like, terrifying. [00:10:34] Speaker B: Honestly, I was a pretty vague kid, so I was kind of a little bit. It didn't really hit me until mum and dad were driving away, I think, and it was like, oh, wow, I'm here. I was pretty terrified, though. And so my dad, bless him, he. He knows good ways to motivate kids. He said, if you stay there for 12 months, I'll give you a thousand dollars. [00:11:02] Speaker C: That's awesome. We like. [00:11:04] Speaker B: Okay, well, I did. I did. And it was. It was a very long year. I remember. It was a long year. I remember when we. Because it was back in what? I went in 2020. No, 2001. And graduated in 2006. That was a long time ago. I. We had the landlines because mobiles weren't a massive thing then. And so we had one landline for our entire house. So that was from year seven to year 12. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah, so I remember. [00:11:41] Speaker C: Sorry, was it cord or cordless? [00:11:44] Speaker B: Corded. He kind of landline because somebody would steal it. [00:11:49] Speaker C: Oh, that's true. So you had to just sort of hang out near the phone when you. When you were talking to your parents. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Like when you're in prison, you only get one call. [00:11:57] Speaker B: It was on the wall. It was actually on this little table in this little nook. And so I was there and I'd hide. I pulled a chair right up against the. As far as I could underneath the table and hide under the table so that I could talk to my parents for longer than I was supposed to. And just like weeping on the phone, I want to come home, miss everyone. But I stuck it out and I'm really glad I did because it, you know, coming from a. Like, I went from nine students in my primary school total. Nine. [00:12:29] Speaker C: Wow. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah, a thousand. And then living with 300 other kids. And it was a big transition, but I'm really glad I did because it taught me, made me grow up real fast. Like, we had to do our work, we had to get organized. We had to be like on time. Scheduling, you got to go the doctors, you organize it, you organize your leave. You, you know, you do it from the age of 12. [00:12:55] Speaker A: And so it's not as whimsical as Hogwarts. [00:12:58] Speaker B: Oh, God. Now, I mean, we don't have fast lists and, you know, fun things like that, but we lived on an agricultural farm, so you'd have the, the. We had a dairy. And so you, you'd know when they were spreading the, the fecal runoff from the dairy because you could smell it. And they'd put it on all the fields. [00:13:18] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, no. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Have that wafting through your dorm. And so that was fun. [00:13:23] Speaker A: It all sounds wonderful so far. [00:13:27] Speaker B: It was actually. It was good because it afforded me opportunity and it broadened my horizons in that, you know, I'm back in the snowy mountains opposite Mum and Dad on the farm. But it's my choice. It wasn't because I got stuck or didn't think that I could do anything more than, you know, stay in my little country town. And I love my little country town. But I came back because I wanted to, not because I had to be here, if that makes sense. [00:13:55] Speaker A: It does. [00:13:56] Speaker C: You don't, you don't feel like you had a predetermined path that you can never stray off. You were given options and then you got to choose. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And I am really grateful for that because I've made beautiful friends there and I really tested who I was. And then as far as my creativity, we had, we were really lucky. We had the most incredible art department. We had dark rooms and. Yeah, yeah, I know. Public boarding school. Who would have thought? So we, we did a lot around, you know, obviously we followed the syllabus, but our teacher was really good at propelling us into being able to express issues and who we were through our work. And, and that was a real gift because then that led on to me going to university at Sydney and, and studying photography there. So it was. I, I would never, you know, begrudge my parents sending me away because it gave me this incredible avenue to really learn how to use my craft to say things. And, and, yeah, and so when I went to boarding school and went to, you know, I was, as you do as a teenager, discovering who you are, you know, and I came to realize that, well, it was funny. I came out twice. It's hilarious. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Twice. Let's go with the first one. Let's do the first one. [00:15:35] Speaker B: Let's start with the first one was, oh my gosh, I'm gay. I, you know, I was dating girls and, you know, know, this is who I thought I was. [00:15:44] Speaker A: That's a sign. Yeah, that's a definite sign. [00:15:46] Speaker B: You know, dating women. It's great. And so that was. I used my art because I also had an experience of depression, like clinical depression and, you know, medication, all that sort of fun stuff, lots of therapy. And so one of the things that really got me through that was my creativity and being able to explore and understand who I was and my place in the world through my art practice. My final work for you 12 was all around the Mardi Gras. And that was kind of where I felt the most seen and safe and accepted. And so without, without my creative practice, I can very definitively say that I would not be here because it, it and meditation saved me because it was it, that was it today. So, yeah, I would say that that experience of going to boarding school, being in the space that I was in, coming out the way that I did, and being able to utilize art as a therapeutic means has definitely shaped me going forward and, and where, and where my path has taken me. [00:17:16] Speaker A: So, and is that, is that part of the, I guess the decision making or the catalyst that led you into taking up art therapy as a practitioner yourself? Is that where that inspiration came from, that you saw how powerful it was when harnessed well and how it worked for you and you wanted to basically pay it forward or pay, pay community back through that same channel? Is that, is that how it came about? [00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah, kind of. Yeah, absolutely. I can. When I didn't know, at the end of my studies at Sydney Uni, I didn't know that there was a thing called art therapy because I was going to actually major, do a double major in psychology and art because I Thought, they're my two loves and I, okay, I don't know how, but I wanna, I wanna marry them. And I came out the other side of the art degree going, I don't know if I want to be an artist. That's, that's really scary. The art world's brutal, like on display. People like my 2 year old could do that. You know, it's really, really hard. And so, you know, we had some pretty ferocious and incredible lecturers who would just, you know, they didn't beat around the bush. They're like, no, that's garbage, can't start again or yeah, wow. They weren't that mean, but they, you know, they didn't mince words, which I appreciated. I like straight talkers. [00:18:43] Speaker C: And well, it's good too because it sets you up for reality in the actual art world outside of school. That is like you said, it's brutal. Like, it's not. You're not just, just because you put your heart and soul into something doesn't mean, you know, you're going to make a living from it or get recognition from it or whatever. Because it's a pretty tough, yeah, tough to get noticed in that world. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Absolutely it is. And you have to be really on point with what you're trying to do and say with your art practice if you want to exist in that world. And, and you know, they really pushed us to do that. So again, it was that communication through creativity that if you want to say something, you have a voice through, through this and this is how you do it. And if you're not clear, your message is going to be lost. And so, you know, going through the mental health stuff that I went through and using that creativity, I could see that there was potential there to help other people do that. And so when I got out, it was kind of like, I don't know the universe. And I'm, I'm a spiritual person. So I'm like, yay, universe, you're gonna, I'm gonna pick up on those little crumbs that you're leaving me. And I don't know how, but I ended up at a kinesiology, like open day thing. And then I picked up one of their brochures and went, they do art therapy here? What is that? And so that was my trigger to then go, this is it, like light bulb. And it was amazing. And so diploma of, what was it called? Diploma of Transpersonal Art Therapy with the College of Complementary Medicine, North Sydney. And, and then started working. I started doing my placement at the drug and alcohol withdrawal unit in Canberra at the Canberra Hospital, and then stepped into different roles within the act health system and then ended up working mainly at the adult mental health unit with people experiencing acute mental health issues. [00:20:48] Speaker A: That must be pretty confronting given you've had your own mental health journey and challenges, as we all have, I guess. But you've articulated yours so well. Was that confronting, seeing that pain in other people, or is that motivational or inspirational for you to make a difference? [00:21:07] Speaker B: Both. It's both. You got to, you know, some of the stories that I've heard are pretty. Especially within the drug and alcohol space. They're pretty, they're very confronting. But we have, you know, requirements for our registration and things like that where you have to go and I think it's four hours of face to face time. You have to go and have an hour of supervision, six months. So there's very clear boundaries around and guidelines around what we have to do to keep ourselves well and able to do our jobs. Otherwise, if we're, if we can't get past our own stuff, well, then we can't help somebody else because we're, we're looking at their issues through a particular lens and a particular bias. So as an art therapist, I can't diagnose, nor would I ever want to diagnose or even analyze people's artworks because their artworks are for them and their own meaning and symbolism and mythology and to find their own solutions within their work. So it's not up to me. One of my beautiful teachers, when I went and did postgraduate, was it a grad dip? So I started doing my masters with the Micat Institute in Melbourne, another amazing art therapy school. One of the beautiful teachers there said, you are a companion, and that's what we called it. We companion the people who are creating the work and our clients because we walk with them with curiosity and we walk with them as they discover and uncover and unpack the. The meaning within their work. And sometimes it's subconscious and it takes time and sometimes it's really obvious, but we're there to help them come to their own conclusions and come to their own solutions. It's not, it's not my job. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Yep. No, that's good. And it's an important boundary to have. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:24] Speaker C: Just for the benefit of the people listening and also. Absolutely. For me, can you tell me, like, what is art therapy in simple terms? What is art therapy? [00:23:37] Speaker B: It's using creative processes to. Look at and move through the issues and find solutions to any challenges or problems that you might Have. Using creative processes. That's it. Expressive. Creative. Expressive. So we use movement and sound and. [00:23:59] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, well, that's what I was gonna say. So. So just give me some examples or like, what. So what would happen if I was to go and do art therapy with somebody? Obviously, there's probably people that specialize in different practice painting, photography, you know, like, is that how it works? People have this sort of different mediums that they specialize in or do all art therapists have a broad toolbox to help people with. Like, how does that work? [00:24:30] Speaker B: It's more. If you have a specialty, it might be that you work with people who have survived domestic violence. I've done a lot of work in that space. Or you might work with adults, or you might work with kids, or you might work, you know, within ndis. So that's. That sort of the specialization is not necessarily your modality or your materials. It's. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Who you work with, essentially. [00:25:01] Speaker C: And then you. You would be expected to then have a range of modalities. They say, like art practices, that you could offer to help, like, for that person. So, you know, depending on what speaks to them, what's going to work for them, you don't just say, hey, we do painting here, so let's get painting. Yeah, okay. [00:25:24] Speaker B: No, and there's a really good reason for that because it's. That can be quite prescriptive and restrictive. So you want to. You're basically teaching people how to use their intuition as well and to trust themselves. So. So if I came in and said, well, you're going to do painting, and you go, yeah, I can't paint. [00:25:46] Speaker C: That's what I'd be thinking. I'd be like, okay, well, this is going to go well. [00:25:50] Speaker B: And the most beautiful thing about it is that you don't have to be good at any of it. I. I am not a drawer. There's a reason I did photography. I. I mean, if I really try, I can scratch out something that might resemble a cat, but it's more about the symbolism. So you could literally do on a piece of paper and it would be the most meaningful gesture or mark that you could make because it's about expressing what's going on for you rather than creating a masterpiece. It's about the meaning. It's about what you see in your work and what we can pull out of it in the way of your experience of whatever it is you're going through or your place in the world or what it is your subconscious is telling you. It's not about Making a masterpiece, it's just, it's literally about using creativity and expression to get out what's on the inside. So you can see. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Yep. [00:26:57] Speaker B: And whether that's you, a raging pile of torn up paper or a beautiful landscape, it doesn't matter. In fact, I would say that the torn up paper is more helpful therapeutically than the landscape because you're looking generally, if you're going to paint a beautiful landscape, you've got your judgment eyes on. And if you're just leaning in and expressing and you're tearing that paper up and you're making lines or, you know, you're really feeling into your body and you're allowing things to just emerge as they need to that point rather than creating something that looks like anything. [00:27:39] Speaker A: And do any of your clients turn to photography for that creative expressionism? [00:27:47] Speaker B: Not generally, because with photography it is, for me it's been a really cathartic tool and it's something that I actually really want to explore with, particularly teenagers and giving them an opportunity to explore their world and themselves through photographic practice. But because we're kind of in a contained space, it's much easier if you're in a, you know, in a group setting or in a 1 to 1 to just pull off, you know, art materials from, from the shelf. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Because again, photography as you know, can be quite confronting as well. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Indeed. Yep, yeah, yep. There's a comment here in the, in the chat from Lucinda. Good morning, Lucinda. She says, I photographed a art therapy workshop attached to an exhibition for a local university last year. Such an interesting practice. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, Lucinda, you're spot on. It's unbelievable. And it's something that's really quite a gentle process as well. Because as an art therapist and generally as a therapist, you only go as far as somebody is comfortable going. And it's completely client led, it's completely client centric as therapy should be. But it's, it's. You're operating from here and I'm pointing to my heart rather than from here. So with a lot of talk therapy and talk therapy is amazing. Like I, you know, it's incredible, but it can be quite analytic. And so if you're reliving things like trauma or abuse or things like that, and you have to then describe it to somebody or describe what it is you're going through, it can be retraumatizing. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:41] Speaker B: In some instances if, you know, and there's, there are, I'm not deriding, you know, talk therapists or psychologists. They're unbelievable people. They're Incredible. Some of my beautiful friends are, you know, psychiatrists and psychologists, and they do beautiful work. But with an art therapy practice, you can allow people to enter gently and you're operating from the subconscious as well as the felt sense. So the feelings within the body rather than the analytical mind, that can take back into that traumatic space where healing from a different part of ourselves. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Amazing. Absolutely amazing. [00:30:29] Speaker C: I'm learning so much. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Justin, Turning, turning our eye now to your photography. You know, you've just talked about the need to lead from your heart, to shut off the analytical mind, to think about what you're experiencing in your body in that place and time. Does that then transfer to your photography, to how you approach your craft when working with other people? [00:31:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think if. I know. I know for me personally that if I get too much in my head, I just shut down. Like, it's not. I remember early on in my journey and I still do it if I'm having a bit of a rough day and I'll go back through the poses and be like, oh, God, I've got to remember this one. I've got to remember that one. And then when I step into the space, it just completely goes out the window. And I'm just working with a person and we're having that, you know, that relational interaction. And I'm responding to, to them and where they're at and meeting them where they're at, rather than trying to force anything. And if I can see that something is uncomfortable, then we, we pause and we stop and we, we go gently. Because I don't want to. My, my thing with photography is that if you look at your work, if you look at these images that we create together and there's any stress around that, that I've done something wrong, it should be experience the whole way through. [00:32:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want people feeling uncomfortable to justify the, the means of a photo that you have in your mind that you're like, I think this is going to look really cool. Meanwhile, they're, they're feeling weird about it and you're like, trust me, it'll be worth it. It'll be worth it. You know, like, you don't want that. [00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, there is an element of that. You like, you know, put your hand here. Trust me, I know Wheels feels weird. Or, you know, Stan, if you're, you know, because I shoot some shoot weddings as well. And you know how you say to people, get, get closer. This is. You got to be uncomfortably close. Because if you're Standing, you know, a comfortable distance apart, the camera's gonna make it look like there's a football field between you. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And then everyone starts to wonder, oh, what's between those two? [00:32:47] Speaker C: Is there a fight [00:32:50] Speaker B: going on there? I wonder what the deal is. [00:32:54] Speaker A: But it is interesting that, isn't it? [00:32:55] Speaker C: That. [00:32:55] Speaker A: That. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt, but just on that thought, that photographers, I guess, often see situations where people. Their interactions are off, and it's. It's interesting. Part of our role as photographers, when we observe people and we see those behaviors that they try to contain, that come through, you know, that come through, and it can often get in the way of, you know, the creative process and get in the way of them being on board with what you're doing. It can get in the way of, you know, the. The outcomes and the experience for everyone. How do you. When you work with people, how do you diffuse or. Or soften some of those potentially conflicting emotional responses? [00:33:38] Speaker B: That's a really good question, Greg. And as you were talking as a session came to mind immediately. And it's usually with distraction. It's, you know, let's go and do something. Let's change it up. Let's go and jump off a rock for a minute. Let's go and have a moment. Or it's me removing myself from the situation for, you know, a couple of minutes just to let them catch their breath or, you know, putting the camera down and having a conversation. It's as simple as that. I don't always need to be like that, you know, ready to. To capture a moment that. That might emerge. Because, you know, we're people and we don't. Sometimes we don't want those things captured. If we're having a real raw moment, we need that space and grace to be able to be real. Because, I mean, being in front of the camera is so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable there. And so I need to have that awareness of how far I can step in a supportive way. And having, you know, it's kind of like in therapy, you build up that trust. And that therapeutic relationship was the same sort of thing as you're, you know, you're guiding your clients through a session as you. You have to build up that rapport and that trust that they. That you have their best interests at heart and you're not acting from a place of, I don't know, selfishness, I guess, or. [00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah, just to get the job done. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Precisely, precisely. I'm there to serve them. We're in the service industry, after all. And so I want to be of service in every way that I can be. [00:35:14] Speaker C: Yeah, you. You might have seen this when shooting weddings. I know I used to shoot weddings for. For about 10 years with Jim, who's not on the show today, but he is sometimes. He's probably listening, maybe if you're listening, Jim, comment. And we saw many times, usually it would often be one of the. One of the people getting married would often be just looking a little zapped or a little flustered or a little like a little over it with. During the photo session. And like, you've gotta. You gotta be onto that really, really fast. And. And the, like, the best thing you can do is like, hey guys, just grab a seat here for a second. I'm gonna go get you guys some drinks because, you know, I need to. I need to sort my camera gear out anyway and change some stuff out, so just. I'll get you a drink. And you guys, because. Because if you try and push through those moments, like you're just making someone's the best day of their life into a. Into a chore, into a chore of a photo shoot and potentially putting some stress between the couple when they should be just having a great time. Because if. Because sometimes, you know, sometimes one, you know, if one. One person's feeling a bit, you know, average, and then the other one's like, come on, you know, like, we gotta get these photos done and stuff. And then. So then there's tension between a couple that's supposed to be having their best day ever, but the tension is getting created by me needing to take photos and that just none of that should exist. It's sort of. Have you ever experienced that when shooting a wedding? [00:36:43] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I suppose it's that respect that you have for your clients and understanding boundaries as well, and not overstepping those boundaries. Because as you know, as much as I'm sure the couple wants to push through, sometimes you need to be recognizing that they're. They're reaching their limit. And the best and most beautiful gift that you could give them is that space. Yeah, absolutely. I remember one wedding, there was a markup with the bar and. And something happened with the drinks and. Oh, that's right. There was a miscommunication and the bar started charging people for their drinks, even though the couple massive drinks package. And. And so, you know, we were supposed to be doing our couple's photos and there was a few more shots that I wanted to get because I knew that they would be, you know, really gorgeous and stuff, but I put down my camera and said, look. Oh, and they misplaced some of the alcohol as well that the couple had brought for it. In the end, it was all okay. But, you know, I put my camera down for the moment and went, look, the bottle is just down the road. I can make a run. Like, is that what you need me in this capacity? You know, it's not all about getting the perfect photo. It's making sure that your, your clients and the people that you're serving are having the best day possible. As you said, it's supposed to be one of the, the happiest days of their lives. And then put kind of money into this. Like, they want to look back and go, that was a cool, cool time, cool party, cool vibe. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:28] Speaker B: And ignore that thorn in their side, the one who's just like, oh, no, just one more. I'll just do one more. Just one more. The light's really good over here. Stop. Just breathe and let them breathe. [00:38:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:40] Speaker C: Yep, definitely. And then we used to always get great shots anyway because we just. So if it was either the whole bridal party or just, or just the couple, we just kind of sneak back into the, into the distance and put a long lens on and get sort of a wide shot of them just hanging out somewhere. Anyway, they don't realize that when we said just, just have a. Sit here and hang out. We've sat them in a really nice lighting and then we snuck away. Yeah. Then they think that we're not taking any photos and we are. [00:39:10] Speaker A: So you can do street photography. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Hey. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Described it right there. [00:39:15] Speaker C: Not, not really. [00:39:17] Speaker B: You have to do all the photographies. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. That's right. [00:39:21] Speaker C: One of my, one of my secrets was we. Because we always had fridges in our cars and I always had a six pack at least of beer in there. And yeah, there's that. There was that point on like a February wedding on a hot day or whatever. And we're, we're too far away for them to do it to, you know, get some drinks or whatever. And I'll be like, you guys thirsty? And they're like, oh, yeah, but you know, let's just get this done before we go back. And I'm like, no, no, I got some right here. And it was just, it was always there. Yeah. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And how cool is that, that they're going to remember you as a photographer who was like, hey, guys, come and sit down. Have a, have a chill for a minute. Have a beer. Let's be. I have a thing coming up in September That I'm really excited about. It's in Griffith, and we've actually worked into the timeline. A picnic. [00:40:13] Speaker C: Oh, nice. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So we're gonna go up to this beautiful hill and we've got a picnic planned for them to sit down for 20 minutes together and just be. And, you know. But it's. I was really, really adamant in the point that this is your time together, because every other moment in the day, you're going to be pulled from pillar to post. So just have moment together. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great idea. [00:40:42] Speaker A: I think it's a wonderful approach. Yeah. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Do you organize the picnic or are they organizing it or the venue or. Like, how did it all. How did that come about? That idea and the organization? [00:40:53] Speaker B: We were discussing the timeline and she. The bride has this idea to go up to this hill and. And she was just talking about how not so much anxious, but how her fiance is not super keen on photos. And I've photographed them before, and he's amazing to photograph. He's very obliging and just such a lovely man. And I said, well, why don't we just take a little cheeky picnic? Why don't we do that? We can do it as your day. We can schedule whatever you want. And so that's what we're going to do. And I think she's got one of her bridesmaids. I think her sister's going to organize, like, the actual package. And I'll just chuck that in my car and we'll go up the picnic blanket down and. Yeah, it'll be nice. [00:41:44] Speaker A: I think that'd be so disarming. You know, it just. It just forces them to stop and have a. Have a bite of cheese and a glass of wine or champagne and just reflect on what's happened so far of the day and what's about to happen, all while you're there taking photos. And they're in this mindful moment. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because, I mean, you've got to remember with weddings, they're so intense that sometimes I think I remember my wedding. And it was just. It was full tilt from woe to go. And just to give them that opportunity to remember why they're there and why they're doing this and to really connect back together so they can just recalibrate and go, okay, let's go to the reception. You know, like, other intense space that they're going to be stepping into. And if they're, you know, they. It can be really confronting and overwhelming and overstimulating. Like, you know, I've undiagnosed adhd. And it was just. It was so intense that sometimes I just, you know, we need to remember that they're people and that they have needs. [00:42:54] Speaker A: They're not just a spectacle for everyone. [00:42:56] Speaker B: Exactly. They're not a spectacle. And we need to give them that grace of remembering why they're actually doing this and why they're saying these vowels and who they are together as a couple. [00:43:06] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Especially because they still have baby twins. So I'm just like, you need to stroll. [00:43:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Minute. [00:43:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Without children. [00:43:19] Speaker C: Do you do. So you like. You do families, weddings, newborns, a range of stuff, some commercial work, all sorts of stuff. What. What's the breakdown of that look like within your photography business? Is it like. Is there one thing that's sort of the main. The most commonly common style of shoot that you do, and then. Then, you know, you take the other stuff as it comes or how does it. What does it look like? [00:43:44] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So my main work is with families and I did. I've just. I can't remember how many years I've been doing it. Maybe four or five. I did a big exhibition series around motherhood called the Motherhood Project. And so that was really about, you know, recognizing the roles that mothers play within the world, because without us, the world would burn. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a bit cool. [00:44:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:18] Speaker B: So, you know, and it's a role that's largely undervalued. And so I wanted to bring that into the light. So that was my real focus for a lot of the time, which has then led on to me being known as a family photographer, predominantly. And then, you know, I took a break from weddings for a good few years because I just. I couldn't balance that with family because I've got two young kids, too, and I wanted to make sure that I was available to them because, as you know, as, you know, photography for weddings is intense and big, and it's not just been up on the day and photograph. It's like travel and, you know, editing and all of the. [00:44:59] Speaker C: And some days you just feel. You just feel zapped. So even though you've got Sundays off, you're not doing a lot usually, I found anyway. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I wanted to make sure that that time for our family was really sacred time, that Sundays is for us. I mean, I broke that little rule for myself occasionally because I'm. And boundaries are something that is my growing edge. But, yeah, I just, with. I can be home for A good portion of a Saturday and then go out in the evening and shoot a. A family photo or I can do it. So my husband is very wonderful and takes Fridays off to have our 4 year old so that I can just have that day for me. She goes to preschool Tuesday, Wednesday, so I. She's school Tuesday, Wednesday, and then he has a Friday. And so I shoot Friday evenings and Saturday evenings, which is, which works really well for us because it means that, you know, I'm there for school pickup, I'm there for drop off and I can go to the school stuff and I can be a part of the pnc. Whereas I think if I was doing weddings in that time, especially when they were little, I would have missed out on a lot. And a lot of family time too, which I'm not. [00:46:18] Speaker A: That's good. You got to have. You got to have limits and boundaries. [00:46:22] Speaker B: Well, what's the saying is that you work for a living, not live to work? Is that what I'm saying? Right? [00:46:29] Speaker A: Yes, something like that. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:35] Speaker A: A lot of your family photography work and I imagine some of your wedding stuff and the maternity, it's all shot outdoors, whereas a lot of people prefer to work with that sort of stuff in studio. What's, what's the kind of the rationale for you to, you know, create most of your content out in nature? How do you sell that to your clients? Sorry? [00:47:02] Speaker B: Oh, well, I mean, look at where I live. We're one of the. You know, tourism is one of the biggest things in our area. Whether it's mountain biking, because we've got the Threadbow bike parks and the massive big comps that go on down here, like when, when I go to town. Did you have a brain wave, Justin? [00:47:26] Speaker C: Oh, no, I just. I love riding at Threadboat. I haven't been there for a few years and. Yeah, it's one of my favorite spots to ride. Cause they've got lift access and it's. Yeah, it's just. I love it. It's. I didn't realize you were that close. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You'll have to come and do the. The Thread by Valley Trail that goes from Thredbo all the way down to Jindabine. Have you done that yet? [00:47:53] Speaker C: I haven't, no. I know it links. Yeah. Like it links through a couple of camp areas and stuff. When we've never been able to camp because when we've been up the. If it's like anywhere near school holidays or anything, all the camps are booked out for like months in advance. So we've always had to get accommodation in Thredbo itself. But I'd love to camp somewhere along there and ride. Yeah, that. That must be beautiful. [00:48:16] Speaker B: It's gorgeous. You should come up during Lake Light when they have the Light Festival. The Sculpture festival. Yeah, write it down. Pretty sure it's over Easter. I'm pretty sure my memory could be failing me here. But it's this beautiful sculpture exhibition that goes along the. The banks of Lake Ginderbyne and so you can ride from Thredbo down and enjoy the lakes lights celebration. [00:48:43] Speaker A: It's. [00:48:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it's such a. It's so cool. You look at it and you're like, this would be an amazing place to live. But yeah, it must have its. Must be tricky as well with weather and tourism and all that sort of stuff. I'm sure there's. There's pros and cons to every. To everywhere. But it's so beautiful. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, you know, just go back to your original question there, Greg. It's. My rationale is that I live in one of the most beautiful places on earth. Like I've done a fair bit of traveling in my time and I always come home and go, this is pretty cool. You know, this is pretty spectacular when you see the mountain views and you've got the snow on the hills. If I'm shooting down on the lake, the Jindabyne foreshore and I look up and I can see snow on the mountains and then the sun sets through that snow and you've got the reflection of the water and then these beautiful sculptural sort of boulder things and the sandy beaches. That's pretty cool. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it is pretty cool. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Yeah. But I did actually have a studio for 12 months last, last year and so I did a little bit of studio work, but it just. I don't know, I'm. I think I'm a little bit too wild for a studio. [00:50:01] Speaker A: These walls can't contain me. [00:50:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Don't put me in a box. [00:50:06] Speaker B: But no, it was. And it was amazing. And I really. I did a. I. One of my beautiful friends did. She's actually. I'm sorry, I'm just flicking over to my Instagram profile. Oh, she's the first on my Instagram feed. Her photo is the first one on the left. [00:50:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:29] Speaker B: And we did this. Create. This is a creative shoot that we just went, you want to do something fun? Let's do something fun. So that was actually in studio that we just started experimenting. Yeah. Beautiful arena. [00:50:44] Speaker A: Wow. [00:50:46] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [00:50:47] Speaker A: That's incredible. [00:50:49] Speaker B: That was the rug that was on the floor that we hung up. [00:50:53] Speaker C: I was gonna say. So you're not really, if you are put in a box in a studio, you're not really a wife background, kind of a. Kind of a person. You're not like a. Let's just have a blank background and I'll just take. You want to, you want to make something unique? [00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And if I was going to do that, I want to make sets and stuff, but I just, I don't have the capacity to do that at the moment. Which is, you know, maybe I'll come back to that. But like it's just. Yeah, I'm not. And I have so much respect for the photographers who can do that because again, that's really beautiful and client centric and your clients are the focus of it. But you know, I'm usually. And I do, I do like Santa photos. Not Santa photos, but I do Christmas photos. I don't do Santa, but that's. I, I make a set for that. And so it's kind of work background and I have done headshots and things like that. I think there's some on my website. But yeah, it's not where my heart is and I'd rather go around a paddock. [00:51:59] Speaker C: Do you do Christmas photos anymore now that you don't have the studio? Like will you do them outside somewhere or something? Or is that just something that you've pushed off to the side for now? [00:52:11] Speaker B: No, I'll do them still. There's lots of community halls that I'll hire and. Yeah, so it's not dependent. [00:52:20] Speaker C: Tell us a little bit about it because we've had a few photographers on that do that and they've described it in many ways from absolute like hectic chaos for six weeks leading into Christmas to, you know, some people have said it, you can make really good money doing it, but it's hard work. Other people have said it's just super fun, fun part of the year and they love making the sets. Like they probably spend too much money and time building, you know, their dream set each year. Yeah. What, what is it for you? Is it like a one off thing that you do for one weekend? Is it, do you do it like leading up every week or something like that? Explain. [00:53:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I do it for one weekend and that's okay. So it's. Yeah, one, one weekend. So you get two days. You want to book in for those two days? You can. And if not, I'll probably make an exception. And, you know, we can do it on a Monday or something. Sorry, go on. [00:53:24] Speaker A: I was just gonna say, do folks question you on the absence of Santa? [00:53:29] Speaker B: No. [00:53:29] Speaker C: Good question. [00:53:30] Speaker B: No, no. Some people. I mean, some people have in the past, but not many because I just sort of. I mean, I have done it with Santa before. I did. I did some photos for the local library and they had volunteer Santa. But I just from. I just don't want to put children in the position of sitting on a strange man's lap. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Yep. [00:53:55] Speaker B: I don't want. I don't want my clients, whether they're 2 or 22 or 102, to feel uncomfortable. And, you know, so I remember with that experience there were some kids who were absolutely terrified and had no idea what was going on. And, and so, you know, I never, ever forced them. And instead I would say, how about you parent? Because they'd be like, go on, go on, Jimmy, go and sit on Santa's lap. And it was like, I'm gonna freak out. So I'd say, how about you go and sit in between? And then Jimmy can sit on the outside. Okay. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Because it's not for me. It just didn't sit right that I was going to force a child into a situation where they didn't feel safe. And that's, that's the whole thing for me is it's about safety and. [00:54:44] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and the whole point of the photo in the first place just becomes redundant if you're going to force them to sit there and oh, it's a place, smile, would you? You know, it's just that whole expectation setting. It's unrealistic. [00:54:56] Speaker C: Did you ever think about telling the parent, what if you sit on Santa's lap? That'll show, That'll show the child that it's all. It's all good. And then they can just sit off to the side. But the, the parents see how they feel about. And see. And then they'll be like, oh, no, that's weird. [00:55:09] Speaker B: Well, I mean, you should be prepared to. [00:55:12] Speaker C: Hey, that's right. Tony says, greg, you could be the Santa. [00:55:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I've had that. I have played Santa before, actually. [00:55:21] Speaker C: Have you? [00:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah, every. Well, for a very small audience, I did. I think we did it once for a Christmas thing years ago. But I used to dress up when my kids were little. When they were toddlers, I used to dress up as Santa and come home with a pillowcase with a couple of early Christmas present toys because I'd always get my. When I worked in corporate I'd get my bonus just before Christmas and so, you know, I would go and get the kids a toy each and. And they would just sort of stare at me. And I didn't have a beard back then, but yeah, they always sort of just sat there staring, trying to work out, work out, you know. Hang on, you. You look like papa. Are you papa? [00:55:59] Speaker B: No. [00:55:59] Speaker A: No, you're Santa. And then I'll say goodbye and I'll go and off down to the car park and get undressed and. Yeah, the things we do. The things we do. Speaking of children, I'm curious to know, do your kids, Katie, do your kids show interest in art? I imagine you've raised them with a very artistic. Oh, yeah, the answer. [00:56:21] Speaker C: I thought they were yours. [00:56:23] Speaker B: No, I meant, yeah, we do a lot of art together. I've got. I just, I don't know if I can show you. This is like, you know, looking behind the curtains, but that's our table. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Coloring in and all sorts of things going on there. Yeah, we really, that's one of our family values is around creativity and, and expression and so, you know, that's this part of what we do and how we operate. So. Yeah, it is. And my oldest, she, she has one of my old cameras. It's a very, one of the very nice ones, often, you know, takes photos and my, my best friend who's like my sister and her kids are like my nieces and nephews and her oldest has one of my other old cameras. And so, you know, they're, that's part of, you know, their little crew and we're in the process of getting her middle child a really nice camera. I've run out of ones that I can upgrade again. But yeah, we, we really encourage that. [00:57:37] Speaker C: Yeah, when, when you say get. Getting a really nice camera. So would that be like, would you go second hand or new or like secondhand? [00:57:46] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely, yeah. [00:57:48] Speaker C: And would you look for like a DS? Like DSLRs are getting pretty cheap now and they're good, you know, like they're great for. To learn on. It's like, it's kind of like when you used to learn. Learn on a film camera with the 50 mil. Now it's like learn on a DSLR with a 50 mil. Yeah, it is now for sure, but it's also, I think it's really like it's going to be slower, but that looking through the optical viewfinder and then taking the photo and seeing how it came out is. It is a very different experience to shooting mirrorless and just like. Which is like holding your phone up and going like, well, that's what it's going to look like. There's no mystery to it. There's no magic. [00:58:29] Speaker B: Yes. And I'm teaching them how to actually use the controls so that they can. [00:58:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:35] Speaker B: It's not just a point and shoot. [00:58:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:37] Speaker B: I turn it off automatically. I don't get that luxury. [00:58:43] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:58:45] Speaker B: Mean like that. But I think, you know, I remember one of my teachers from Union was like, well, why would you shoot anything other than manual? Because then you control everything. And I know there's, you know, there's a place for it, whether it's aperture priority or shutter priority, whatever it is you want to shoot. And I don't begrudge anybody doing that. Just my process. And the way that I was taught and the way my brain works is I want to. I want to be able to control things. [00:59:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:09] Speaker B: So I want to teach that to my kids. It's like you. You get to like create this image and then we get to go and create it even more if you want to do Lightroom or Photoshop. [00:59:18] Speaker A: And yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I learned on film as well back in the day, some very long time ago now. And I prefer complete manual control over my camera. Yeah. I don't, I don't use any sort of priority settings. It's just I'm in charge of everything apart from autofocus. I love autofocus, but. [00:59:39] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, [00:59:42] Speaker A: let's not get silly. [00:59:43] Speaker C: Let's not get silly. [00:59:44] Speaker B: All right. [00:59:45] Speaker A: Throw out the Playbook all together. [00:59:47] Speaker C: We can use some things. [00:59:49] Speaker B: That's exactly it. [00:59:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:51] Speaker A: But I wonder if there's a correlation there because so far my survey only has two people. That's you and me. But I wonder if there is a correlation between people that learned on film cameras having to control aperture and choose the right speed film and all of those sorts of elements, whether they find shooting with a priority mode less enticing than going full manual. I wonder if there is a correlation there between older folks like us. [01:00:18] Speaker B: Maybe. Maybe we need to put a little survey out there and find out. [01:00:23] Speaker C: I learned on digital. I learned on digital and went and went full manual only. So I don't know. [01:00:29] Speaker B: Did you? [01:00:30] Speaker C: Yeah. But then now I'm depending on what I'm shooting. I'm more likely to play with a priority mode depending on what I'm shooting now compared to what I was when I first started and then started my business when I was full manual for yeah, the entire time. [01:00:48] Speaker B: That's really interesting. So you've gone back to it? [01:00:51] Speaker C: Well, I never. I never used it to start with, and now I do. So it wasn't even went back to it when I learned. I just learned on manual. [01:00:58] Speaker B: Okay. [01:00:59] Speaker C: And then now, like, if I'm shooting with the Q3, I'll often put it on aperture. I'll set my aperture and then I'll put it on auto shutter speed with some boundaries about what, you know, the lowest minimum I want and auto ISO. And then I'll just control my exposure compensation. I find it a really freeing way to shoot when I'm out and about on streets or traveling and things like that. I don't have to be. Whereas when I was shooting Weddings full manual with two cameras, my brain is always trying to calculate and preempt exposure. Like, all right, I'm about to walk outside, I need to change ISO on both cameras. You know, like, it's. It's always processing to make sure my exposure is right for when a moment happens. Whereas if I can let the camera do that, I can just be more present in the situation when I'm traveling and things like that. Shooting on the streets. And then, yeah, they might not be the exact settings I would have liked to pick, but I was able to react to a moment really quickly, and I didn't have to constantly think, okay, I'm walking inside, I'm walking back outside, I'm under some shade at a market now I'm in full sun. I didn't have to constantly be doing that. And then to be ready for a moment to happen. Does that make sense? [01:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a really, really interesting way to do it. I think. I just. I've got trust issues, I think. [01:02:38] Speaker C: Well, that's the problem is it doesn't do what I. What it would have done. That's the. That's the big issue. It's like ideal. Ideally, yes, Shooting manual all the time is far better. But it just. [01:02:51] Speaker A: If I'm. [01:02:51] Speaker C: If I'm on a shoot, I'll shoot manual. It's just better. I'm more in control and whatever, but it's more like if I'm doing something where I'm part of the activity as well in some way, or want to immerse myself in some way, it lets me switch off a part of my brain that would otherwise be just running in the background. Constantly worrying about the right exposure is for this moment, in case I want to lift my camera up and. Yeah, because the last thing I want to do is like, lift it up and then realize that I'm three stops away from where I should be. Because the last time I took a photo was inside or something like that. [01:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. Older cameras, I just remember it. You know, you take a photo and then go, that's not what I wanted. [01:03:37] Speaker C: Yeah, [01:03:40] Speaker B: calibration did its thing and like, that looks like garbage. [01:03:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I've got that. [01:03:46] Speaker B: I need the new cameras. Need to earn my trust. Because that's a fair call. [01:03:52] Speaker A: That's a fair call. I wanna. [01:03:54] Speaker B: I wanna. [01:03:55] Speaker C: I wanna find out about that. I wanna. Should we. So we're an hour in. I want to quickly. I want to quickly check in with the chat, make sure we haven't missed any. Anything, and then quickly remind everyone that they should subscribe to this channel because we've got tons of more interviews. Greg's got people lined up left, right and center in the next couple of months and some. Some really interesting interviews that I've been asking him to try and secure for a long time and he managed to snaggle them. So subscribe please to the Camera Life, but also don't forget to go to Luckystraps.com if you need a camera strap. Nice, comfy leather. That's that. And Code Greg. Use Code Greg if you need one. You know, you know the deal. If you've listened to this podcast, you know the deal. Yeah, they're the best camera straps that have ever been made. And who's in the chat? Manila Martin1001 says, Good morning from the Philippines. That username, Manila Martin, I'm guessing you're from Manila, so. Yeah, good to have you. Robert Varna says tax time in the USA is April 15th. Wow, what an odd date. Just pick one. [01:05:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Does America work on that financial year starts in March like some Asian countries do? No, I think it starts again the 1st of April 15th. [01:05:10] Speaker C: Must be April 15th. Must be. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, Google that. [01:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah, we'll find out. Finding Nemo114 says. Hi. Just curious, have any of you shot a Xiaomi 17 Ultra? No, I haven't. No, Greg hasn't. It's a fancy new phone that I'm pretty sure Leica have. I think that's the one that Leica have used for the Leica phone with [01:05:35] Speaker A: the ring on the back. Yeah. [01:05:37] Speaker C: Do you ever. Yeah. So, like. Yeah, check this out. Let's just. Let's take a detour because this is fun. [01:05:45] Speaker A: Just because. [01:05:46] Speaker C: Because, like, is it fun? Where is this? I'll try and find It. So they partnered Leica have made a couple of phones that are kind of like camera focused phones and they never got super popular, they're quite expensive. But this is the first time I think that they've partnered with [01:06:06] Speaker A: Xiaomi. Didn't they do one a couple years ago? [01:06:11] Speaker C: I don't know if that was with Xiaomi or not, but so it's the Leica light tone powered by Xiaomi and so it's essentially very similar to the 17 Ultra. So you can buy the Xiaomi version or you can buy the Leica version. Like a virgin Leica version like anyway, if you listen to, you know. Yeah, so but it's got this, the Leica version has a control ring around the, the sort of the camera area. I don't know what to call it. That. You know that lump that you put the. All the camera lenses when you just keep adding lenses to phones these days, the lump. So they put a ring around it to actually use to control settings, which is pretty cool. And I don't know if the Xiaomi's got that and it's. And it's also got a grip or something I think or the zombie has a grip or I don't know. I didn't, I didn't look too closely but yeah, look, it's got like nice little, little knurling. Little, little. [01:07:12] Speaker A: Love a nerd. Love a good nail. [01:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it's probably. Yeah, see look. That looks expensive, right? That'd be worth saying. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Well that looks like. [01:07:23] Speaker C: Yeah, whatever the original cost, whatever the normal phone cost. It seems like most people are. Most people are looking to be like, hey, I just want a regular camera and a PH phone and a phone that doesn't do too much stuff. But maybe that's just us east coast photography. [01:07:45] Speaker A: Just before we move along and keep talking with our guests, I ditched the Xiaomi for Oppo which now has a has tech and that wonderful xpan feature. Love it. [01:07:57] Speaker C: Oh gosh. Phones are getting crazy. My stupid Canon doesn't even have a xpan style crop in camera. [01:08:04] Speaker A: It doesn't. [01:08:06] Speaker C: It's not hard to put a crop in the cat. Just put it in the software. [01:08:09] Speaker A: People, please, you should be allowed to create custom crops and just. [01:08:14] Speaker C: Glenn Lavender. Glenn Lavender from Creative Photo Workshops, always with the comment says if you like it then you better put a ring on it around the Xiaomi thing. [01:08:24] Speaker A: That's terrible. That's such a bad dead joke. [01:08:28] Speaker C: Tony says, my parents sent me to school and I've never forgiven them. [01:08:31] Speaker A: So. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [01:08:33] Speaker C: And well, so Lisa's Lisa's got a real. An actual question. And then after Lisa. Oh, east coast photography. Said. Did say, good morning, Ron. Lisa got an actual question from earlier on in our conversation, but we'll. We'll revisit this and then we'll. I do want to find out a little bit about. About gear and stuff. Lisa says, is there a correlation between your photography composition, common themes that you're drawn to, and your art therapy in any way? Is there any crossover there? [01:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Lisa, that's a beautiful question. Thank you for asking. Absolutely. Because, I mean, with art therapy, it's all about empowerment. With my photography, it's all about empowerment. So it's all about making sure that you feel the most. You and your most wonderful self. And so that's sort of what. What we try and do with. With therapy, and it's also what I try and do with photography. So it's not all about getting the perfect shot. It's all about, for me, within photography. It's all. It's really centered on making sure that you feel the most. You. You feel the most fabulous version of you. And I want to show you that version of you so that you can see what I see. And I think that's probably the biggest overlap there. [01:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:57] Speaker B: And I guess just, you know, with what we were saying before around, you know, empowering people and making sure that they are feeling safe and seen as well. So absolutely amazing. I mean, just. Sorry, just go on again, the. Because being photographed can be a really therapeutic thing as well. Being able to express yourself and. And be seen as well and celebrate can be an unbelievably validating process and healing process. [01:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:30] Speaker B: There's been a lot of people cry when they see their photos because. And they say, you know, I. I didn't know I looked like that. I didn't know I could feel so beautiful. Especially, you know, postpartum or as you're going through pregnancy. Pregnancy is, you know, beautiful. But my God. And just as a mom, you know, the usual photos that we get are like this. [01:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Or like this. Holding. Holding the extra chins up. I like that especially. [01:11:02] Speaker B: Exactly. Or something. It's like, oh, come on. So, you know, it's really empowering, that space for. For women in particular, and particularly mums, to. To be celebrating them and to. To say, I see you, I see you, and I appreciate you. That's. That's where the overlap. [01:11:23] Speaker A: That's powerful. Yeah. Lisa just added. Beautiful answer to the question. Thank you and thanks for your question. If anyone else, if anyone Else in the chat has a question for Katie. Please feel free to drop it in the, in the comments and we'll, we'll get to it along the way. Just before we, we talk about gear, because Justin gets very, very excited about gear. [01:11:44] Speaker C: He. [01:11:44] Speaker A: He's kind of the tech nerd and I'm kind of more of the softy feelings. What did you call me the other day? [01:11:51] Speaker C: I can't remember yesterday. [01:11:53] Speaker A: We'll talk. You called me something that I thought I meant to own that. No, it wasn't sad anyway. And I apologize. I apologize if this, if this question is triggering in any way. You know, we live in a world where online hate, especially towards, you know, fringe groups, towards people that live in that are. Start again, Greg. Especially for people who are part of a diverse culture. Have you experienced any bigotry around because you're an openly queer person and you're an openly queer visual creative. Have you ever had negative encounters with people because of that in your photography, in client work? Sorry. [01:12:43] Speaker B: You know what? I'm very lucky in that I haven't. I'm. And I recognize that privilege. I think the only thing that I've really experienced is that people, I think, you know, because of the way I look or the way I am or the way I'm known, that people tend to like to make it very clear which side of the fence they vote on. So I had, you know, a client who insisted on wearing a MAGA hat and photo shoot. [01:13:23] Speaker A: That's the ultimate turn off. [01:13:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And then his wife was like, absolutely not. Take. [01:13:28] Speaker C: That's funny. She was like, take that off. [01:13:31] Speaker B: I mean, I have a. He has a right to, to, to be as he wants to be and to his opinion and his vote and whatever it is. It just is interesting that. And I don't know, maybe other people experience this too, but it just seems. And another shoot that I did recently, they were, you know, they had the family lined up and it was one of those classic we just want one where they're all together looking at the camera, like, whatever. Stand there. And instead of, you know, everyone like going yay or something like that, they went, we hate album. Like, why, why do we need to do this? Like, no, it's not a political moment. Like, we're not discussing, you know, gosh. I know. So I don't know if like they. And I, you know, I don't go down that track because everybody, I'll accept everybody as long as they're being respectful and kind. If you're not, then we have. We have problems. [01:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:29] Speaker B: And you know, I'm not going to put up with bigotry and discrimination or racism, but I. I'm very lucky in that I have not experienced direct attacks. And I'm going to touch wood because, you know, I'm a safe, superstitious person. [01:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's a beautiful and elegant answer to my incredibly messy question. As a follow up. As a follow up, I felt awkward asking it because I wanted to get it right and I messed it up. But anyway, a follow up to that is. Have you had clients come to you after they've dealt with another photographer who was. Who did discriminate against them, queer couples? [01:15:11] Speaker B: No, I haven't had that. Thank goodness. Because I would hope that that was never anybody's experience. But I did. I did the most beautiful workshop last August. I think it was last August. It was completely and utterly life changing. And just a shout out to Carissa. You are amazing. Thank you for running that workshop. And she's now a beautiful, dear friend with Elkin fur. So you should check her out. She's amazing. And that workshop was unbelievable because it brought together the most beautiful group of people. But also we were talking about inclusion and diversity and that. And one of the couples there who is a same sex couple, two amazing women, and they were talking about their experiences within trying to organize their wedding and facing and experiencing discrimination. And it was. Yeah, it was unbelievably wrong. And as well as those two, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the magazine, Dancing with Her. [01:16:27] Speaker A: I have heard of it. Yeah. [01:16:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So Tara, who was. Is the founder of that. When she was organizing her wedding, she faced the same thing. Discrimination, which is mind blowing that people could think that two people wanting to celebrate their beautiful relationship and their love could be anything other than spectacular. [01:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:49] Speaker B: It just baffles me. [01:16:51] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a baffled world and we see a rise in discrimination. [01:16:56] Speaker C: It seems bizarre though. It certainly seems like you say like, it's like. Yeah, I don't know. I can't. I just. It's. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:03] Speaker C: It's hard to imagine what someone would be thinking when, when they, like they're doing their job, someone's approached them to do like, I don't know what. Catering. [01:17:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:13] Speaker C: Suits, whatever. Like why it would have any relevance. Like why would even. You know, it's so weird. [01:17:20] Speaker B: Anyway, it is. And it's heartening that you can't comprehend that because obviously that's not who you are. It's like, you know, my, my husband as well is like, how could people think like that? Well, because people do. They're not, not everybody is as conscientious or, you know, open as, as you and so thank you for checking. [01:17:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's hard to imagine that mindset, you know, like where it's like, yeah, it's, yeah. I don't know, super weird. Like, as soon as the first, the first same sex wedding that I booked, the first question was like, is it, do you mind if we post this on our socials? And they were like, we'd prefer not, but we're more than happy for you to share the photos with any potential client in a meeting. And I was like, well, thank you. Because it was, I was like, this is, you know, it's the, it's the, this was like two years into my business and I just wanted as many different locations and. Because I'd never shot at this place before and stuff like that. But yeah, I couldn't, I could never imagine thinking like, oh, this is weird. I hope that no one sees me doing that. I don't even know what someone would think the problem would be. It's bizarre. [01:18:32] Speaker A: Yes. And that's the baffling business. What are you saying to yourself? That's creating this, that's turning this into a problem? [01:18:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:40] Speaker A: What do you, what are you scared of? What do you not understand? You know, it's all that stuff, you [01:18:45] Speaker B: know, the other is the other and. [01:18:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess. Or are they worried that they drink too much so the wet. They'll lose money on the drinks package or, you know, like, what, what are you, what are you worried about? It's so weird. [01:18:59] Speaker B: So when I was photographing this conference last week, I, I had a request from one of the delegates who was presenting and they were working on, on the. Oh my gosh, I'm going to mess this up. I'm operating on very little sleep. So my recall, they were working on the, in the, or the royal commission into discrimination against trans people. [01:19:31] Speaker A: People. [01:19:32] Speaker B: I think that's what they were. It was to do with trans rights and how, you know, the, the discrimination that trans people face. And they said, can you. I would love some photos. I would love some photos, but can you not get me with any of the slides, any of the logos or anything like that? Because I don't want to be doxed and because that is the experience of. One of their colleagues was outed and as working, just as their job, they were working. I mean, they were also, I think they were also a part of the LGBTIQA plus community. But they were so scared that they were going to just in association with working on that particular. Particular piece of a particular issue that they were going to get death threats and hate and their safety was going to be compromised if anything was associating them publicly with that. Like, that's wild to me. [01:20:39] Speaker C: Yeah, it's very sad. Yeah. You shouldn't have to worry about that sort of stuff, especially when you're just doing your job. [01:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Here's another comment from Glenn. My trans son gets daily online death threats just for being him. [01:20:57] Speaker B: I'm so sorry. [01:20:59] Speaker A: Yes. [01:20:59] Speaker C: I'm so sorry. [01:21:00] Speaker B: That breaks my heart. It is hard enough trying to find out who you are in this world to come to realize that you were potentially born in. Into the wrong body or don't feel like yourself in skin you're in without facing hate from external forces. So I'm really sorry and I hope that it sounds like you're an amazing support for your son. So. [01:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:24] Speaker B: They're very lucky to have you. Yeah, champ. [01:21:27] Speaker A: Good job, Glenn. [01:21:28] Speaker C: Good job, Glenn. [01:21:30] Speaker A: Let's pivot a little. Let's talk about gear. Now, you've given away a lot of stuff to family and friends so they can take up photography. What have you got left in your kit? What do you shoot with? [01:21:42] Speaker B: The dregs, Greg, Whatever's the Polaroid. [01:21:46] Speaker C: Just a Xiaomi. [01:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It's going to revolutionize the. The wedding industry. No, but. So what do you shoot with these days? What. What brand are you with? What bodies do you shoot with? [01:21:59] Speaker B: I have Nikon as my system of choice. [01:22:03] Speaker C: No, I'm kidding. Go on. [01:22:05] Speaker B: Rude. I love that. [01:22:09] Speaker C: I shot Nikon for a long time. [01:22:10] Speaker B: A dg. [01:22:12] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're awesome. And Jim still does shoot Nikon, so. Yeah. What, yeah. What bodies are you using? [01:22:19] Speaker B: I have the new Z8. Nice. It's super new anymore, but it's cracking camera. I love it. [01:22:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:22:29] Speaker B: And I also have as my backup body. God, what is it? Oh, the 850. [01:22:36] Speaker C: Oh, nice. Yeah, that. [01:22:38] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [01:22:38] Speaker C: DSLR ever made standby camera. [01:22:44] Speaker B: She's great. I love that camera. So. Yeah, but I have. At the moment I'm shooting the 850 has a. My 70 to 200 Tamron on it, which is a good reliable lens. I've had that one for a while. Probably need to upgrade, but I'm not going to because I like it. [01:23:04] Speaker C: It works. [01:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:07] Speaker B: And. And I recently got myself the. The 24 to 70 Nikon. [01:23:14] Speaker C: The. The Mark 2 version for the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very nice. [01:23:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:21] Speaker A: Is that the one Jim got? [01:23:24] Speaker C: No, Jim got the Mark 170 to 202.8, the Z mount. He bought the Mark 1 mere weeks before the Mark II or it come out a couple of weeks. [01:23:36] Speaker A: He had. [01:23:37] Speaker C: He hadn't taken it out of the box yet. [01:23:39] Speaker A: He hadn't. When we announced it on our Monday night, and we. We were talking about the news that this new lens, like a, you know, a Mark II version, was on the way, Jim was like, oh, but I've still got the Mark one in the box over there. I haven't even used it. [01:23:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So now someone's getting caught. [01:23:58] Speaker A: Just before we. We continue with the gear chat, just another important comment here from Glenn. So you can understand why people can be reticent for showing who they are regardless. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And Glenn, finally, who's also a Tamar Ambassador. [01:24:16] Speaker C: He's the Tamar man. [01:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah. No, Glenn. Sorry. [01:24:20] Speaker A: Glenn. [01:24:20] Speaker C: Glenn Lavender. Creative photo workshops. [01:24:24] Speaker A: Not many people have heard of him. [01:24:25] Speaker C: He's a. He's a great photographer who loves to sing songs about himself at the start of his talks. [01:24:32] Speaker A: Every talk. [01:24:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And Lisa's pretty stoked that you shoot Nikon by the sounds of it. She's a fellow Nikon shooter. Okay, so 24 to. 24 to 70. 70 200. Is that kind of you staples? Like, you're just like. I can. I can get pretty much everything done with. With this setup. [01:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I used to. I used to have my 50 mil as the. Glued onto my Z8. And. And it was. It's a beautiful lens as well. [01:25:07] Speaker A: Is that the big 51.2? Is it? [01:25:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. [01:25:12] Speaker A: That's huge. [01:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm really into tech. [01:25:18] Speaker C: Well, I have a tech. I have a tech question. So it looks to me. It looks to me. Nah, it's not techy at all. It looks to me like most of your shots are natural light, but you obviously had a studio, so you've used strobes and stuff in the studio or continuous lights or something. Do you ever use any type of additional lighting when you're out and about on location? [01:25:44] Speaker B: No, I don't have. [01:25:46] Speaker C: Always natural. [01:25:47] Speaker B: Oh, that's my beautiful friend Annie. Sister from another mum. [01:25:53] Speaker C: The colors. [01:25:55] Speaker B: My kitchen window. [01:25:57] Speaker A: What? Wow. [01:25:58] Speaker C: No. [01:25:59] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:00] Speaker C: Gosh, it's beautiful. [01:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Why would I shoot inside when I can shoot? [01:26:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a fair point. [01:26:09] Speaker C: Why would you walk over here? Beautiful backdrop. [01:26:12] Speaker B: Literally. The dog kennels are, like, just up to the right. [01:26:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Wow. [01:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is all outside. I don't use like, I don't have time. There was, you know, four kids in a dash. Hound pup. [01:26:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:26:25] Speaker B: And it's just me, so I don't have any assistance. Oh, that was on my farm as well. [01:26:30] Speaker C: So you. Do you do a lot of the shots just on your. On your property? [01:26:34] Speaker B: Yes and no, this was on their property. [01:26:38] Speaker C: It's a great shot. [01:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a wonderful shot. [01:26:41] Speaker B: Out past Nimidabelle. Yeah, it's. I go on location a lot. I mean, there's a lot of beautiful farms and. Oh, that's at Billy Lingra. That's down by a river. [01:26:58] Speaker C: Like, tell me, tell me and. And everyone else, but mainly me. Give me some. Give me some advice for taking better family photos. Have you got any, like, any. Any advice that would be useful for anyone from, you know, they've. They've got their first sort of proper camera and they want to take some. Some better shots of their own family or whatever, right up through to people that are doing this for a living, but they just want to get more natural moments and. And yeah, do the sort of work that you're doing. [01:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. The biggest one would probably be go and do something. Go, go and, you know, have a moment. That black and white one, back before that one, we. We had a campfire and. And got marshmallows and hot chocolates and so, you know, we had. We had fun and we did. Did something rather than, you know, everyone sit on a log, everyone look at me. Because, you know, kids get squirmy if you shooting families. You're going to have maybe one opportunity in an entire session to get a shot where everyone's looking and smiling at the camera. And even then you might have to do some head swaps. So for me and my style, it's more about the connection and I'm pointing to the mama and daughter here, and it's about their interaction. So instead of trying to get everybody to look at you, which can, you know, get kids offside, go and do something, then that way they're in their element, they're leading the show. You're running after them maybe, but it means that they're not getting cranky. [01:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And awkward. [01:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:49] Speaker A: And I think that's important about creating an experience, you know, making it about. Not about the photographer. You know, that's always really frazzled me when I. I don't. I've never really shot weddings professionally. I've done weddings for friends and things. But yeah, there's that. I find it odd that we ask everyone to look at us when we take that photo. And I get why we do, because people like to see people's faces and eyes, and it's a. It's how we're wired. But when it comes to doing the photos, I feel. I feel quite awkward because it just doesn't feel natural. These people don't know me. Why are you staring at me? Look at each other. You know, connect, engage. [01:29:26] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Well, it's an unnatural thing to stand side by side with people just looking out. I do this thing where I can't remember where I learned it, but I learned it, like, well, early on in my photographic journey, is that if you have a group of people. Yeah, okay. You might get a shot, everyone looking at you. But then to get those genuine moments that, you know, people. People come to me and they go, we just want one photo where we're all looking at the camera, smiling, And I genuinely say to them, no, you don't. You don't want that. That's not actually why you're coming to me. You want the photos where you can see your family and the connection and love within the relationships. So. So if you're all standing in a group, I'll ask them to, you know, look where their eyes. No pointing. Look at your eyes and your face and turn to the person who has the smelliest feet. Look at the person who takes the longest in the shower. Look at the person who is the biggest diva. Look at the person who farts the loudest. You know, and that always gets some laughing and thinking about, yeah, you know each other rather than me. So. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. I know it's not a technical thing, but it's. For me, it's been invaluable in, you know, creating connection, which is what people want to remember. The story of their family is not everybody looking at the camera. It's. It's the story of them being a family. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:04] Speaker C: And you can't. You can. You can help guide that, but you can't architect. You can't be like, all right, you look at them, you look at you. You. You smile at this person. You react like, that was funny. And you, you know, like, you can't. You can't craft that down to the. The last degree. [01:31:21] Speaker B: It's like you're a director, and then you give them the prompts, and then you let them do it. [01:31:26] Speaker C: Exactly. [01:31:27] Speaker B: However they interpret it is however it needs to be. [01:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:31] Speaker C: Jim used to use one at weddings. That was just, you know, I want everyone to look at their Favorite member of the bridal party. And nine times out of 10 a groom would look at the best man. Almost every time. Not quite, but almost every time. And then the photo, the moment after that where Jim says, mate, I think you're supposed to be looking at your wife. That photo was always a banger because that's when everyone cracked up. And he looked back at his wife and she's looking a bit like something like what are you doing? And it was, it was the, the one after that one was always great. And it's like trying to get to those, those moments. But yeah, they would always, it was, it was so funny. You could predict it like he's going to look at his, he's going to look at his mate. You can just tell. [01:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's going to happen, it's going to happen. [01:32:27] Speaker C: It's. He's an idiot. [01:32:30] Speaker B: The train wrecks happening before your eyes. Yeah, I love it. [01:32:36] Speaker A: I'm curious. [01:32:38] Speaker B: The kids are running around playing airplanes. Sorry. [01:32:41] Speaker A: No, no, don't be sorry. [01:32:43] Speaker B: You know, I said run around, be airplanes. See how fast. [01:32:46] Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah, that's a great one. [01:32:49] Speaker A: That's very cool. Question for you Katie, given all the elements or sub genres, however you want to put it, of family photography that you practice, is there a side of it that you feel you're yet to master? [01:33:06] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm always learning, Greg. Always. I don't think I'm a master yet at any of, any of it to be honest. I am always striving to, to learn more if that makes sense. I'm not trying to, you know, it's not like a humble brag. It's like I genuinely, I, there are so many people that I admire within the photography industry and go, I just, I would love to create stuff like that. So I, I'm always pushing to, to do, not to do better but to. Inhabit the creativity that I want to inhabit. [01:33:52] Speaker A: Yep. [01:33:53] Speaker B: If that makes. [01:33:53] Speaker C: Okay. [01:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it does, it does. [01:33:57] Speaker C: What's, what's the business side of family photography like these days? Is it. If someone come to you and said, oh, I think I want to be a family photographer, I want to make it my full time living. Would you. Do you think it's possible still? Is it? Yeah. Do you have any advice for someone that's in that situation where they think I think I could do this? [01:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing is make sure that you are scheduling in self care into your strategy. I think that's something that we kind of skip over a lot. And maybe this is my little therapist hat coming out again, but I just think from my own personal experience, making sure that you are looking after yourself. Someone said to me recently, because I've recently gone through a period of like, I just, I don't know if I can do this much more. I'm getting really tired. And I think there's a lot to be said. You can absolutely make. There's so many people actually, you know, making a huge living from it and they're really successful within the business space as well as in the photographic space. But there's a lot that you have to have a really thick skin too, and, and understand that the choices that your clients make are not. It's not personal as well. You know, I've had, and this is probably bad business practice, but, you know, I've done, I've recently done shoots where, you know, I didn't take payment up front and then done the shoot bent over backwards, compromised on all of my boundaries, and then they have ghosted me and I haven't seen a cent. So, you know, it's moments like those where you go, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm so sick of dealing with things like that where I think self care and understanding that it's not you, that, yeah, you might need to change some stuff within your, you know, your business and how, you know, the workflow happens or whether you. Payments up front or deposits and things like that. [01:36:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:11] Speaker B: But understanding that it's, it's them, not you. So I think working in self care is really important, but you can absolutely make a, a really beautiful income off it. I personally do ips, which has really helped me. And for, for those who are wondering, it's in person sales. So I have packages that will give you a certain number of digitals and then print credit because for me, I, I sort of think, what's the point of doing photos if you're gonna just sit them in a digital drawer somewhere? Why? Yeah, let's put them on the. And if, even if you just have them on your phone, what's the point if we're doing family photos? Your children are never going to see those photos again, ever. [01:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:01] Speaker B: And so what is the point? My personal belief is that photos of your kids will help your children find a sense of place and belonging within the home. They see that photo on the wall of themselves and go, I know where I am. I know where I'm loved. Somebody loves me enough that they're going to put my face on their Wall like that. So I'm a big champion of printing your work. So that's what I offer. And as business goes, that's where I sort of make a lot of my income is through printing. [01:37:38] Speaker C: All right, well then, okay, talk us through it. Talk us through. So how do you set up packages so that they work for in person sales with print credits? I can tell you. And weddings are different, so let's talk about family. But I'll just give you an example from weddings. When we were shooting those at one point we went through that same, exact same thing because we would just do packages that include all the files, you get everything. And then one day we're like, man, no one's printing this work. Let's give them. I think we were giving a $500 print voucher and at the time, because our prices were way too cheap, that like ideally they got something bigger printed that might have cost $800 and they don't have to chip in $300. But we had products that they could just, for $500, they could just give us that voucher and get a product. You know, it wasn't, wasn't like it was, you know, the only way to get this was to spend another $2,000. It was like they could have got just a nice framed print for nothing. And the. I, I think less than 10% of our couples ever claimed the voucher. So. [01:38:52] Speaker B: Can I ask a question? [01:38:54] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:38:55] Speaker B: Did you educate them on why it would be beneficial? [01:39:01] Speaker C: We tried process, yeah, because we wanted to, you know, we wanted people to have, have, you know, printed work in their home to remember the day. You know, we did a lot of, of what I now know are Marcus Bell style images where they're very landscapey shots of the wedding day as well. So they're not going to be imposing. You know, it's not like their only option was to put a photo of them looking straight at the camera, you know, big in the frame in their house. Like they could have put something that was very sort of subtle, if that makes sense. But we definitely didn't explain it in the way that in a as nice of a way view just explained why it's nice to have family photos in your house. We didn't have that language. We're very like, we're very new to it at that point. Still don't have that language around. Like the way you just explained that, that you know, as a child, if you see your photo on the wall, you feel like you feel even more like this is home and that you're loved and that you're, this is your space. [01:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:05] Speaker C: I've never heard it explained like that before. Yeah, that makes so much sense as to, as to why it's important not to just get the photos done and have them stuck on a hard drive or on your phone, but to have them for you to look at and for your kids to see and for everyone that walks through the house to see that your family's valuable enough to, to put on the wall. [01:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:28] Speaker C: So anyway, long story short, no, we probably didn't explain it well enough, obviously, but we did try to explain to them that we, the reason we give you this is we want to see, we want to see you with printed work, not just digital files. [01:40:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:46] Speaker C: But, yeah, I think people just get really busy after weddings and there's like a, maybe a crash period after weddings where they just, they're wedding doubt. You know what I mean? They just don't want to know about anything to do with the wedding for two years. [01:40:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think people can get overwhelmed as well. And I, I don't, I know there's some people who will send their galleries through and will do like a version of IPS where you know, you pick your photos yourself and you know, let me know what you want to do. But I find people get really overwhelmed and you know, what's that saying? A confused mind says no. So if I can help people understand that, I'm going to walk you through this process. I, this is not my first rodeo and I, I, I don't care what you spend. You, you don't have to spend anything if you're, you know, my, I've set it up deliberately so that if you get one of my, my lowest package, you will walk away with a frame, a framed print. And I know that's kind of like a loss leader in a way, but I want to make sure that they have something tangible, physical is really important to me. I know, you know, possibly a textual issue for me, but I want them to walk away with something, a thing. And I think that's really important. And so I, and I do a lot of promotions as well where like with my mamahood thing that for me over the last few years has been my biggest earner. Even though I give them a free shoot, I give them a free print, like a loose print and I give them, or they can swap that print for a credit and probably 8 times out of 10 they will swap that print for the credit and they have the opportunity to buy extra. They, but they get to Pick one thing that they can take home from that shoot, whether they spend money with me or not. And so some people, you know, will take the free print and that's fine, but to narrow it down. And it's that psychological thing too, of like, I've shown you all these photos and now you have to choose one and you can only have one. It's really hard for people to do that. And so they go, well, I value all of these and I want all of these. So I, I'm going to invest and I, you know, have payment plans and things like that set up for people so that they can do that. And I've had, you know, single moms pay $20 over two years. And that's okay because I want to make sure that people have that in their homes. [01:43:26] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [01:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. [01:43:29] Speaker A: I think it's a small sacrifice, but worthy. [01:43:32] Speaker B: Yes, agreed. [01:43:34] Speaker C: Can you, can you break that down a little bit for us? How something like the. The Mamahood project works compared to. I know you just explained it, but like in more granular detail, how that the. The finances of that project work compared to like a regular shoot in terms of, I assume you still need to make money. Like, you got to make a living. You're trying to run a business. So shoots can't just be free, obviously, but you're providing the shoot for free. How do you make sure that when you're doing a project like that that you can end up with enough income to cover the finances you need it to cover compared to a regular shoot that has like a set price? [01:44:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:18] Speaker C: Can you break that down a little? [01:44:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I actually did. I actually wrote a course on this for Andrew Helmich, so. [01:44:30] Speaker C: Awesome. So Andrew, I think it was him that recommended you as a guest. [01:44:35] Speaker A: It was Andrew. [01:44:36] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:44:37] Speaker C: So, yeah, he's a legend. I think I said this to him when he was on the show. But basically, like our. All of the good ideas for our wedding business that we grew came from his podcast. I would just like, listen to the podcast. I'd be like, that's a good idea, Jim. We're doing that next week. I'd be like, another good idea, Jim. We're doing this. It was basically that. So if anyone's listening to this and they want a super business focused podcast and they haven't heard. They would have heard because it's one of the oldest photography podcasts getting around and the most focused on business. Photo Biz X by Andrew Hannah Helmix Helmich. Go there. And not only is there free podcast, there's a paid podcast tier that gets even like deeper dive kind of stuff right into finances and things. And then as Katie was just saying, he'll often do then kind of like courses with people that have come up with a specific strategy or technique or marketing style or something like that as well. [01:45:42] Speaker B: Anyway, so phenomenal. And honestly, the. I'm still a member. I still pay. [01:45:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:45:49] Speaker B: I still listen to the full episodes. I still do the courses. He is phenomenal and so utterly beautiful as a human. Like just the most honest and helpful person you will ever meet in your life. So thank you, Andrew. I know he's probably me saying this because I say it to him all the time, but I wouldn't have the business without him. I genuinely wouldn't. He has been pivotal in how I operate and what I do and. Yeah, so. [01:46:17] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [01:46:18] Speaker B: Never indebted. [01:46:21] Speaker A: Right. [01:46:22] Speaker C: Oh, and also you did. Oh, sorry. I was like. [01:46:24] Speaker A: I was just going to say to folks. So I was just going to say to folks, we interviewed Andrew last year. Say yeah, has no meaning for me anymore. So, yeah, you can go back and watch that interview with Andrew if you want to get an insight into how he ticks. [01:46:38] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, good. There was even some great advice. He, you know, he was able to just distill down not only stuff because he was a working photographer as well. That's why he started the podcast. He was just trying to find out more. He is, but yeah, but I think he does a lot less than when his business was at its peak, I think, because, yeah, you know, obviously the podcast kept growing and stuff like that. So. Yeah, but he is. He is still a working photographer, but. Yeah, that's right. He's forever riding around Italy or whatever. Beautiful hills. Right, so you've done a course on this. Can you tell us in a roundabout way how you can make something like the Mamahood project work financially? [01:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yep, absolutely. So the course was on how to run an exhibition, essentially. And I broke down how I did all the promotion stuff within that. So in a nutshell, what. What I do and again, tailor this to. To you to suit your business. Like, this is just an offering of what I do. I will give away shoots so that I am bringing people in and doing photo shoots and then we will have basically an IPS session. And the way that I choose the people, because if you put it out there that you're doing this, you're gonna get a lot of leads. And so I interview every single person who I choose. So sorry, let's go back a bit. Put it out there, they have to complete a questionnaire and it's a detailed questionnaire because I want them to jump through hoops. If you are going to. If I'm going to invest in you and give you this shoe, you have to invest in me. So I. And it's with this mamahood project, it's all about your experience of motherhood, essentially. So I have a list of questions that you have to fill in. It's a must. You can't skip any. I'm mean. And, and then I read through all of those and like, if people have given me one word or one line answers, no, you're not in. Because if you're not going to take the time to actually, yeah. Be a part of this, well, then, you know, it's not going to happen. And I've got other people who are really excited for this opportunity and will really engage. And so I want you to, you know, have a bit of skin in the game in that sense. [01:49:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:17] Speaker B: So I read through all of them, choose my sort of, you know, maybe top 50 or so, and then I will interview them over the phone and then I can gauge whether we're going to be a good fit, if they're going to be a good fit for the project. And then I've done it two ways. I either offer it to them on the spot and book them in straight away or, or I'll say like, thanks so much for your time and I'll. I'll let you know how we go. And, and if they're not a good fit, then I'll offer them like a discount for a session. Like a normal session. [01:49:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:58] Speaker B: And so for those ones who are a fit, what they get from me is they get a session, they get the choice of either a, I've done like 7 by 5 prints, I've done 8 by 12 inch prints, or you can swap that for a 200 gift voucher. And all of my products start from, I think I recently put up my lowest frame from 450 to 500 because, you know, inflation. And so they, they will, they can choose to walk away with a print and that's fine, or they can use that $200 to go towards something bigger. And I explain that all in the phone call and everything. And then once we hang up, I'll send them through information if they're in, and they'll get like a breakdown of, you know, what to expect. They'll also get all of my print pricing up front because I want to be very clear that you get one photo, one photo only. [01:51:03] Speaker C: And do they get the digital file of that photo as well or just a print? [01:51:09] Speaker B: No, they get the digital as well. [01:51:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:11] Speaker C: So if they walked away with. If they were just like, hey, thanks so much, that was really fun. I think I'll just take the print, the five by eight or whatever. But you would also let them have access to the digital version of that as well, so they could put it on social media or whatever. [01:51:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, that's free advertising for you as well. [01:51:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, true. [01:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:31] Speaker C: Right. But then, okay, and then. So they've done the shoot, but they say, okay, yeah, I think I'd like to swap my print for the voucher. Then what happens? [01:51:41] Speaker B: So once we do the session, I'll edit their gallery and we'll book in for a time to catch up. And that's either on, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday or Friday when my kids are otherwise occupied, and we'll meet either in person in Kuma or over the phone on Zoom. So I, okay, we used to go to their houses, which was really great. And when I had the studio, they come to the studio and I had all the, you know, because I've got samples and things that I put on the wall and when I go to their houses, I take all my samples with me so I look like I'm moving in and that's been really good. I know it's a lot of carting and stuff, but it's great for them to see. At the moment I'm a little bit incapacitated, so we've been meeting in cafe. They can see everything. Like there's pictures of, of all of the products and stuff in the information that I send out is PDF. So they can see it. But it's really nice to be able to feel it and feel the weight of it and go, oh, I could see that over here. Or I. So we walk through it together. And that's, I think the biggest, biggest thing for me is that I don't. Again, it's that whole service thing of I don't want, I don't want this experience for you to feel anything other than joyful. So if I can help you, well, then I'm going to. So we do it together. And I always say to them, don't worry, we will do it together. Don't feel like you have to choose now. You, you know, have a discussion of, you know, where you'd like to put things, potentially. Go and walk around your house, have a look at the space. Imagine with your mind's Eye of, you know, could you imagine a big picture there of your family and you've got the information of all the print options and the, you know, the layouts and things like that. If there's any other decision makers around, finances, talk to them as well and make sure that you're all on the same page because we don't want anybody coming in and going, oh, I'll have to check with my spouse about that or I'll have to check with, you know, the other half. [01:53:52] Speaker C: Yeah, so this is, this is setting up prior to the session. You want to make sure that they have had a walk around their house and imagined where those sizes might fit and that whether or not they can afford this and that everyone that's involved in the decision is on the same page. You. I know there's some photographers that require any other decision makers to be in the meeting, which I've always found a little bit of a weird thing that I would struggle to ask, you know, like, because I'm looking to, to do some pet photography. I'm kind of obsessed with it at the moment and I would find it really weird to ask if there was a couple that brought their dog in and then one of them was going to come and like check out the in person sales for the, check out the prints to be like, oh no, you both need to be here. Because I don't want, I don't want you to say I can't make the decision but I understand why people do it, but I just, I don't know if I would feel comfortable. So what are your thoughts around that situation? [01:54:51] Speaker B: I mean, look, I have had in the past, people say I've got to go and check with so and so about that. But in my workflow I set it up so there are reminders and you know, how to prep for your print meeting, how to prep your photo reveal. And then it's got, you know, a list of all the different things that they need to do in order to be ready for it. But I find it, I'm the same as you, Justin. I find it very difficult to ask that as well because I know, you know, in my own life, like we're on a commercial property, like we're on a farm. If it's shearing, you got Barclays. You're joking. So you know, I'm in the snowy mountains and we've got the Snowy 2.0 happening here. And so people are off on site for, you know, two weeks on, two weeks off a lot of the time. So sometimes it's not feasible. You know, if we've got a meeting lined up for next Wednesday, your spouse is off, you know, doing engineering up the mountain, well then not going to happen. And, and I can't ask people to take time off work if they're not comfortable doing that. If they want to and have a cheeky, you know, day to themselves, then that's up to them. But yeah, it's not a requirement. But I do ask them to make sure that they've had a talk to one another about what they would like. And that's why I always send through my print information before anything else, before we even shoot. Because if they look at it and go, I don't think, I don't think I could narrow it down and I don't think I can afford this, then I don't, I don't want to put them in a position where we get into the session and they feel uncomfortable or embarrassed when they see their photos. To then have to turn around to me and say, oh, actually I don't want to people, I don't want to do that to myself. My time's valuable too. So. [01:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:45] Speaker A: Yep. [01:56:46] Speaker B: Yeah, if that makes sense. [01:56:49] Speaker A: It does. [01:56:50] Speaker C: Definitely. Definitely. And it's something I've thought about a lot. [01:56:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:55] Speaker C: And yeah, it's always something where I've just thought, you know, like some people just don't, you know, one of the people just might not care as much. They're like, yeah, I'm. Whatever you decide. And it's just sort of. I know it's always felt a bit odd to sort of request that everyone has to be there. So that's good that, that's nice to know that it's. That you're able to do it without that stipulation and you've figured out a way, a nice workflow to prepare so that they come in with the right kind of mindset around. Yep, I'm going to spend fifteen hundred dollars on wall art. That's, that's what I'm expecting. And then hopefully you figure something out that fits within that framework for them. [01:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [01:57:36] Speaker C: So what about. How do you work with digitals and prints like you said that you do. If it's. They get one photo, they'll also get the digital. Is that the same with everything else? Will they get only the digitals of prints that they buy or they get. There's packages for a set number of digital images as well. Like, how would that work? [01:57:59] Speaker B: So anything you print, you'll get the digital copy of and that's sent through in a digital gallery where they can download the high res and web ready version of those images. And then I do have digital collections as well. And because I, I really, really want people to print their photos. So if you buy all of the digitals and you just go like, I had a beautiful client yesterday. As soon as we sat down, she was like, I've thought about this and I want them all. I just want them, you know, that's it. I just want them. And I said, well, you know that you get 10 loose prints with that, don't you? And she's like, oh, okay. So you know you're gonna get. Yeah. And it's like a gift because I, they're not cheap. Like, I don't. If you're gonna buy digitals, you're gonna pay for them. Because really I want you to put things on your wall and I, I deliberately set them at, you know, a really high price. Like if you want to buy one digital off me, it's Gonna cost you $450. Because I want you to spend $50 more and buy a print that you can put on the wall and you'll get that digital anyway. I'm very deliberate. [01:59:17] Speaker C: Does anyone ever question pricing like that? Has anyone ever said, why is 1 photo$450? That doesn't make any sense. Does anyone ever say that? [01:59:27] Speaker B: No, because if they look through the digitals, I'll actually point it out and go, look, I know that this looks outrageous, but this is why. [01:59:34] Speaker C: And you'll just say that, you'll just say, because I'd rather you spend 500 and get a print. That's why. [01:59:38] Speaker B: Yes. Yep. [01:59:39] Speaker C: Oh, that's cool. So you don't have to, you don't have to pretend that it's like, oh, well, it took me nine hours to edit this photo. So, you know, I don't care. [01:59:51] Speaker B: Because it is to benefit them. I don't want it to be, you know, I, I sometimes see people put online like, you know, was this that song? Remember that was going around. It costs so much because it takes me an hour. Excuse me. [02:00:03] Speaker A: For the. [02:00:04] Speaker B: You know, if you're, you need to price stuff so that all of that is taken into account. [02:00:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:12] Speaker B: That you're getting your worth. And what you perceive to be your worth needs to be incorporated into your pricing. But I want, you know, something like that to be a reflection of how much I want to serve you and the clients that I serve. Because ultimately I want them to put things on the wall. I want them to show all of the beautiful things that we created. So if I can make that more enticing, I'm going to. [02:00:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. [02:00:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:00:41] Speaker C: Okay. [02:00:43] Speaker B: But I just. Oh, yeah. It's an incentive to make sure that people get. It's. It's probably an arrogant thing to say, but what they think they want, they generally don't want because they don't necessarily know what they want because they don't know what potential is or why it's valuable. [02:01:02] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [02:01:04] Speaker C: Yeah. So you're going to try and craft that. So that. Craft your entire sort of price list and offering to help them get to where they really want to be, even if they don't know it. [02:01:18] Speaker B: Yes. [02:01:19] Speaker C: Okay. [02:01:20] Speaker B: That's why. [02:01:23] Speaker C: So, so basically then your goal is you've. You've got the Mumhood project and people are able to access a free shoot, providing they. They're a good fit for you. After you've checked everything out, then you're going to do the shoot. And while they could walk away with. With one image and have paid nothing, still at that point, if they walked away with that one image. [02:01:44] Speaker B: No, I have brought in a deposit now, it's only $50, but it's, you know, if you. It's basically to, again, just say if you don't turn up or if you, you know, ghost me, or if you, you know, walk away after the shoot and don't take anything. Well, you know, and I'll refine if. If they do want to, they get their photos and they go, I hate them all. I will refund them the $50. But it's just to say you have to, so. Or they can put that $50 towards something. [02:02:21] Speaker C: Okay, so. So, yeah, so, yeah, so it's basically just a commitment. And if they, yeah, if they didn't like any of the photos, they would actually get that back, which is very unlikely because. Because. Yeah, so, okay, so then the only way for you to make enough money is to ensure that at some point they spend an amount that's worthy of the time you've committed to that shoot and the products that you've given them for whatever they spend. So say, say they spend a thousand or fifteen hundred dollars or whatever [02:02:52] Speaker B: and [02:02:53] Speaker C: your costs weren't too high. You're like, okay, that. That can work. But if, if the average spend was only $200, you'd be like, this took a lot of time and a lot of effort. [02:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:03] Speaker C: And that can't work. And so, so is it that how it is? You figure out? You're like, all right, I just need to make sure that the average person in the Mamahood project across, say, 10 people, that the average is about this much. And that will make my business be able to function. [02:03:21] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. And that's where pricing structure comes in. And also a bit of psychology as well, because again, if you, you know, we go back to the. If I. If I essentially give you something and it's not really yours, like, I show you the photos, you kind of have a sense of ownership over them at that stage. And then if I say to you, you only get to keep one, and then I'm taking the rest back. Our beautiful minds don't like that. And so they'll go, but I. You're taking something away from me. And I don't like that. I. I want them all like, I want more so genuine. Generally, people will buy more. And again, I'm not going to push people to go beyond their means. I would never, ever want that, ever. But it's that. That. Yeah, it's kind of. I don't want to call it a psychological trick, but it's like. But I. And I want to. I genuinely want to show people all the beautiful photos. And you pick your favorite. [02:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:32] Speaker B: Narrow it down. And so then they'll go, you know what? Let's do a book. And that way I get 20. 20 of them, and then I get the digitals, and then I get a book to take home, and my kids, you know, will flick through them over the years and remember that moment. I'll get to show my friends and family, and so they can. And because I offer pretty lenient payment plans, which, again, I need to not. But, like, if we're talking, you know, nuts and bolts on things, there was one year where just with that promotional loan that brought in like 70k because. [02:05:15] Speaker A: Wow. [02:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah. But it was because people wanted to. And then I'll help them out with a $200 voucher, but they don't have to, but they want to. So I'm going to enable that and support them. [02:05:32] Speaker C: And it's. And it's also, I guess, walking them towards. Walking them towards being ready to spend the sort of money that is required to get this level of photography done. Because you could go the other way and just say, hey, it's two and a half grand and you'll get this beautiful wall art and digital images. Most people are going to say, oh, that's. I can't commit to that. You know, like, it feels like going from 0 to 100. Like, hey, I. I don't even know what's going to happen, but I have to spend two and a half grand and hope it works out. [02:06:09] Speaker B: Exactly. The bar to entry is really super low, which means I get a lot of inquiries through that. But at the same time, I'm still in control of who I'm going to let walk through the door, essentially. And if they're a good fit for both, you know, my business and the project as well. And I just have to understand that, you know, there's, there's going to be an ad spend. Whether you do that on Google or Facebook or whatever it is, this is my ad spend. So if somebody walks away with just their print, well, then that's, that's okay because I factored that in because then the next person might spend. You know, I had a client last year who spent four and a half thousand dollars. [02:06:51] Speaker C: Wow. [02:06:53] Speaker B: If I had, if they came in as, you know, a paying client, a regular client, they probably wouldn't. So, you know, my, my base price is 757.90, I think. And they probably wouldn't have spent any more than that because they've already made that, that commitment. So they've got their package and they're like, right, I'm mentally prepared. This is it. But they came in going, oh, I just get one. But then actually I really, I've thought about it and I really want to do more. And they hadn't even in there, you know, seen their photos at that stage when, when they had talked with their spouse. Actually, I don't think they're married, but their partner and, and decided that they were prepared to invest that much. So, you know, and if the next person then doesn't spend anything, well, that's okay. [02:07:50] Speaker C: Yeah, because it works out. [02:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:53] Speaker C: Okay. That's great. That's an awesome breakdown. I'm sure there's a ton more in the course that you did. So if anyone wants to dive deep into this sort of project, go to PhotoBizX and search for Katie. Katie Phillips. I'm sure it'll find. You'll find it. But yeah, that's, I think that's a really good breakdown. It's something that's been on my mind a lot. It's something so Jim is doing. He's been trying to grow a second. He's still shooting weddings, but. And I don't anymore. He's trying to build a boudoir business and he, he was charging and he's, he's really enjoying it, but he was charging way too little. He realized like just all inclusive session fee with all of the files included kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. That's what we did. We just were like, yeah, I mean this is the price for the wedding. And I think the thing with the boudoir stuff is because he was new to it and he wasn't sure if people. No one really does it in our town either. So he wasn't sure if people would be open to it. So he just sort of priced it really low. And. Yeah, and so he's in this process as well. I'm actually going to catch up with him this afternoon to try and work on some, some Facebook ads and stuff, Instagram ads, because yeah, now he's figured out a process for in person sales and, and how to do it. But he's got to figure out now how do you, how do you attract people and also really communicate through the process that this is how this works like that, you know, there will be an opportunity to purchase what you want after the shoot. This is the pricing and yeah, sort of making sure there's no surprises. No one's expecting to spend this much and then they get hit with this price list and they're like, what? You know, I wasn't expecting this. You don't want that. [02:09:44] Speaker B: Oh, bait and switch. I just, I can't. It makes me feel sick. [02:09:50] Speaker C: Yeah, a friend of mine went to a family photography studio in Melbourne. Wanna, wanna thing? No, it was. So they bought a car. They bought a car and a car dealership gifted them a free photo shoot. Family photo shoot, you know, Got the kids up yet? Free. Got the kids all dressed up and then went and did the photo shoot. They did the in person sales. She loved the photos. There are kids who wouldn't, you know, like. Amazing. [02:10:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:22] Speaker C: Got the price tags that she wasn't aware of. She thought she was just going there for a gifted photo shoot from someone like a car dealership that they spent a fair bit of money on a car. So she thought it was a gift. And then I think the package was at least two or three or four grand somewhere in that range. Enough that she was like, what the hell? And then they said, yeah, you know, she was like, so I what, I thought this was all included. And they said, oh no, that's, that's, that's not included. And if you don't buy the images, we delete them. We don't store anything. And so she was sitting, she was sitting in the room and had to make a decision. Do I delete these photos of my kids that I love or Do I pay the money that I wasn't walking in here expecting to pay? And she's. Yeah, I've heard that story told multiple times. And she, like, she still can feel that horrible feeling. [02:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:18] Speaker C: Now, you know, when she talks about it. Oh, my gosh. [02:11:21] Speaker B: So when she looks at those images, she remembers that because that's feeling that's been created around that. And so as a studio, why would you want that feeling to be associated with any of your work? [02:11:36] Speaker C: I don't know. It's crazy. That's crazy. They must make us make money because I don't know they. That they're doing it, but I, Yeah, I couldn't. That's the last thing I could ever imagine wanting to do as a business, knowing that you're putting people in that situation. Like. Yeah. [02:11:53] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And it's like, that's the, like when you push that idea of, well, I'm going to take something away from you. That idea to its, you know, exactly. Like that's. [02:12:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:12:07] Speaker B: You know, a continuation on of that mindset and that have that sort of psychology around that. But yeah. At what cost? And your reputation. I have. I have hard drives with photos from my first shoots. Like, God, how many years ago. [02:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [02:12:26] Speaker B: Buying hard drives and people like, delete these. Can I come back and buy more? Yeah, sometimes. And I don't delete things. [02:12:37] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, that's what. So we always said, hey, we can't guarantee an archive of these forever. But we don't. We don't. We don't delete things. But I. But also don't come back in 10 years and, and get angry if for some reason they don't exist because we will do our best, but hard drives do crazy things. [02:12:59] Speaker B: So I lost all my uni work because my hard drive corrupted them. And I didn't know. Oh, so foolish. [02:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we've all been there. We've all been there. [02:13:13] Speaker C: Anything else, Greg? I mean, we're a couple hours in. We should probably let Katie go and go and do some moonwalking or something. [02:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:21] Speaker C: Is that what moon boots do? Does it allow you to do the moonwalk? No. [02:13:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, definitely. It's like very constricted. [02:13:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never had to be in one, which is pretty, pretty fortunate. Yeah. Anything, Any, any burning questions, Greg? [02:13:40] Speaker A: No, I think I've ticked off all my questions. Maybe you want to ask. Ask your last question, as is custom. [02:13:49] Speaker C: Well, yeah, so if you. I think. Hmm. If you had to run out the door into the mountains to get Away from a zombie apocalypse. And you could only grab. [02:14:03] Speaker B: I can't move. [02:14:05] Speaker C: Oh, sorry. If you had to hobble out the door in a moon boot. Hopefully they're the slow zombies. It depends which show you're watching, but hopefully they're the slow ones and you can just walk slightly quicker than them. And you needed to quickly grab one camera and one lens to document the impending doom of the world. What would you grab? Or. And it could be anything. Doesn't have to be something you've got now. It could be a camera you used to own. It could be a dream camera. It could be just the thing that you use every day. [02:14:35] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. That's a very interesting question. I think I would probably go back to a film camera because if we're in a zombie apocalypse, there's going to be no electricity. [02:14:49] Speaker A: Electricity, potentially, yeah. [02:14:51] Speaker B: So I'm gonna go old school where we don't have to charge and I can still document and hopefully I'll have a backpack full of all the things that I need to, you know, produce these images. [02:15:04] Speaker C: A little dark room. [02:15:06] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. [02:15:11] Speaker A: That's part of every emergency management kit. Absolutely. [02:15:15] Speaker B: You can't go anywhere without it. [02:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:15:18] Speaker B: But I think there was genuinely a zombie apocalypse and there's no electricity. I would have to go back old school and I don't know what camera that would be. [02:15:28] Speaker C: I was gonna say, do you shoot any film now or is it on your radar at all? Or you just now? [02:15:33] Speaker B: No, no. I really want to learn how to do cyanotypes and I want to do some pinhole camera stuff with my kids and I want to learn how to do those tin types as well. They're so beautiful. [02:15:47] Speaker A: Oh, we can put you in touch with someone. [02:15:48] Speaker C: I was going to know someone who does tin. Do you know tin type man? [02:15:52] Speaker A: No. [02:15:53] Speaker C: Well, that's. That's the person you need to talk to. It's all in the name. It's all in the name. [02:15:57] Speaker B: We'll. [02:15:59] Speaker C: Yeah, we'll. We'll connect you up. Tintype man. He brought his whole setup to the bright festival of photography last year and did tin types on stage and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. He's always doing stuff. He's. He's located a long way. He's in Philip Island. Mornington, Phillip Island. Somewhere down there. [02:16:21] Speaker A: He's closer to Philip Island. So I'm going out sometime in the next. I think next month. I'm going out for a portrait shoot with him. [02:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, delightful. [02:16:29] Speaker C: He's always trying to rope in people with fancy beards for his tintype portraits because they look so cool, you know. [02:16:36] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Have to wait. Oh, yes. You do the darling? [02:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah, why not? [02:16:43] Speaker B: I love darling. My dream is to. To do tin tights at the medieval fair. That's in Queen Ben. [02:16:51] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [02:16:53] Speaker B: So do you like. [02:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:56] Speaker C: Do you medieval? Are you. Do you. Are you a laugh? [02:17:00] Speaker B: No, I'm not, but I'd like to get dressed up for the medium fair occasion. But it's just like you go there and if you're not dressed up, you look odd. [02:17:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You're the weirdo. You're the weirdo that was wearing just normal clothes. [02:17:16] Speaker B: That's right. If you're not a wizard or some mythical beast, then what are you doing? [02:17:21] Speaker C: Oh, that's funny. That's so funny. [02:17:24] Speaker A: I. [02:17:24] Speaker C: We come across some at the Bendigo show last year and I was there with my nephew and I'm like, look, these guys are doing like, laughing. Come and check this out. They weren't laughing. They were doing like proper night in armor combat that I didn't realize isn't. It's an actual sport. And they were beating the crap out of each other. [02:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah, they have them at the, at the fair. They. They have jousting and they like. It's proper. It's real proper. [02:17:52] Speaker C: They were like swinging swords and axes and it was hitting hard. I could tell. I felt some of the armor and stuff. I'm like, it's heavy. [02:18:01] Speaker B: That's kind of like, I should get [02:18:04] Speaker C: back in touch with him. I wanted to. I wanted to follow him around and take some photos. I thought some behind the scenes shots of the, like, after the matches and stuff. Like, that would be pretty cool. [02:18:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be amazing. Yeah. They go, yeah, unreal. I love it. [02:18:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know how those events get insurance, but, you know, they do it. [02:18:26] Speaker C: No idea. I think there was. I don't think there was any insurance at the video show. I think they were just, they just going for it. They had like a Bluetooth speaker and. [02:18:37] Speaker B: And yeah, true medieval style. If you get hurt. [02:18:41] Speaker C: Well, yep, yep, exactly. Oh, they were talking about their broken bones and stuff that they get from. Yeah. When someone swings an axe and it hits you in between the armor. I was like, oh, this sounded fun until you said that I could get broken bones. [02:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a limb. Holy moly. [02:19:02] Speaker C: Cool. Should we call it? [02:19:03] Speaker A: All right. Yeah. I think that's a good place to tie a bow. In today's episode of the Camera Live podcast, Katie, on behalf of us and those folk that are watching or will watch this because this is now in the Internet forever. [02:19:18] Speaker B: Yay. [02:19:18] Speaker A: Forever immortalized. But thank you. Thank you for your openness and your insight and inspiration. But also thank you for allowing us to create a safe space where you could talk openly about all the things that matter to you. As a mum, as a neighbor, as a community member and as a creative, I think it's really inspirational to see you forge a unique path that many others can follow. And thank you so much for your time. [02:19:54] Speaker B: Thank you both very much and you have created a safe space. You, it's such a privilege to be here and if I can, you know, help support anybody in their journey and I don't know if I inspire, but yeah, just I hope people can live the way that they want to live and do the things that they want to do and create what they want to create in an inclusive and wonderful world. [02:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing to strive for, that's for sure. Just before we say goodbye, anything coming up from you that we should keep an eye out for any future projects, Anything you've got cooking away? [02:20:36] Speaker B: Yes, I will be having my latest iteration of the Mamahood celebrations this time in this year in November. I haven't decided on the format that's going to take. It was, we used to do a gallery exhibition, but this is going to evolve into something a little bit different this year. So that's happening in November. But other than that, I'm just sort of taking along, doing my thing, running after children after children, hobbling. [02:21:12] Speaker A: When I get my hands on you. [02:21:14] Speaker B: Yes. [02:21:19] Speaker A: Oh dear. The joys of parenthood. But look, on that note, thank you once again and yeah, maybe we'll get you back in November. You can talk about what you do have planned. Drop on a Monday night and let us know what you've got, what you've got going on. But we all tied up there. Justin, do you want to roll some music and say thanks and goodbye to some peeps? [02:21:39] Speaker C: I do. Glenn lavender says the 1975 study by Ammerman and Friaria have shown that children who regularly see photos displayed in their homes tend to have higher self esteem than children who don't. So there you go. Fact. Philip Johnson, special thanks, Justin. Greg, and special thanks, Katie. Lisa Leach says thank you. Amazing. Show the camera life is an incredible community. Welcome to it, Katie. Yeah, welcome. Thanks, Lisa. Speaking of Katie, you can go to Instagram @katiefillipsphotography or just go to the website katiefhillipsphotography.com au and check out all of her wonderful work and otherwise subscribe like and yeah, what else? [02:22:26] Speaker A: I don't know. [02:22:28] Speaker C: Com do that and we'll see you guys on on Monday. Thank you. [02:22:32] Speaker A: Bye bye everybody. [02:22:34] Speaker C: Be safe.