From NASA to Men’s Sheds | Craig Wetjen’s Photography Journey (EP162)

[00:00:25] Speaker A: Well, good morning everybody. It's great to see you. Welcome back to the Camera Life podcast proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps. If you. If you're looking for a premium handcrafted Aussie made leather camera strap that will probably outlive you, will definitely outlive your camera, head to Luckystraps.com check out the amazing arrangement of leather camera straps that we have. Everything from wrist straps right through to our premium deluxe leather camera strap. Connect with your craft securely and comfortably. I nearly stumbled on that last word there, boss. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Did well though. It was. It was a quite a wonderful little ad read there. [00:00:57] Speaker A: I feel like it's smooth. I kind of just glided into it. So it is Thursday 5th March and we are joined. Being a Thursday morning, we are joined by an amazing guest. Good friend of ours, Craig Witchen joins us. G', day, Craig, how are you? [00:01:12] Speaker C: Good morning everyone. Yeah, I'm doing really good, thank you. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Good to see you. [00:01:16] Speaker A: It's great to have you on. [00:01:17] Speaker C: Great to be here for sure. [00:01:20] Speaker A: We've been wanting to get you on this show for some time and of course we met last year at bfop. Finally met in person. We got to hang out and have a few DNM's, which was lovely. Yep, we've got a lot to unpack. You've got quite a comprehensive story that we want to dive into and I'm sure the folks watching and listening along are very, very keen to, to hear more about you. We recently saw that the folks over at Tamron Australia that Get the Shot podcast stole you. [00:01:49] Speaker B: They scooped us. [00:01:50] Speaker A: They seem to be stealing all of our guests. [00:01:52] Speaker B: They scooped us. Damn it. [00:01:55] Speaker C: No one ever scoops you guys. Come on. It's. That's. We're all sharing the camera love, right? [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. [00:02:01] Speaker A: We're not competitive at all. Well, Justin is. I'm not. [00:02:04] Speaker B: I am. I'm very competitive. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Sorry for that. [00:02:07] Speaker B: As long as we. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Everybody. [00:02:09] Speaker B: As long as we get more views than them, it's all good. It's all good. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. We are, after all, the only live photography podcast with a live call in number on a Monday night. [00:02:18] Speaker C: So. [00:02:19] Speaker B: So that's true. We've got that. [00:02:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:22] Speaker B: They've got fancier production though. But that's okay. We're live. [00:02:26] Speaker C: We're live. [00:02:27] Speaker A: That's right, we are. Now, Craig, you wear many hats and have worn many hats in your creative career. You've been or are still portrait photographer. You're a workshop instructor, you're a published author, you photograph events and you're a champion of mental health and mental health awareness and support and advocacy, which is amazing. And we want to cover that in a little more detail because that's a subject that's very close to my heart. But you're also an educator and you have been for, for quite some time. So I might lead with a question about education. What, given your experience as an educator and a, you know, active member of the photography community, what are the key differences you see between when you got your degree way back when, I won't say how long ago, but when you got your degree and what you're seeing in new student photographers these days? What are some of the key standouts that you think will define the next generation or perhaps the next generation of craft? [00:03:24] Speaker C: Yeah, well, this is, this is kind of a loaded question because now you're showcasing my age because, you know, when I, when I got my degree in. Get this. In Industrial scientific photography. Oh, that's deep and meaningful, isn't it? [00:03:45] Speaker B: What does that mean? Just before you go too deep. Industrial scientific photography. What is that? [00:03:51] Speaker C: Okay, what is it? I spent probably 50% of my photography education learning how to photograph things you can't see with the human eye. You needed a camera, you needed special lighting gear, arc flashes to freeze objects in mid flight or all that sort of fun. Macro photography, microscope photography. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:04:25] Speaker C: Yeah, so. And you know, that kind of led me into getting a job at, as an intern at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. And, you know, thanks, Greg. Well, I'm quite proud of that. I mean, come on, it is huge. I mean, you know, to, to think about how many opportunities get thrown your way and, and to try to capitalize on that opportunity. And yeah, I believe it or not, I got offered a job after my internship and I turned it down. I know, right? [00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. [00:05:03] Speaker C: But look, I wouldn't be here talking to you guys and talking to the, you know, the photographic community if I had taken it up. But look, going back then. So I graduated in 1995 and look, digital first came out. I helped some of the first digital cameras in 1994. And look, it was definitely an eye opener. But back then, photography was about crafting an image and taking your time. And it wasn't instant gratification. So you had to actually really consider and think about what it was you were photographing. So like I said, I was photographing things in mid flight. So we're talking milliseconds, fractions, seconds, and you had to set all that up. You know, like landscape, landscape photographers. Even today, you have to set up the shot, you have to think about what your depth of field is. Think about. Well, I'm like, do I have the right weather? You know, so back then, it was film. It was a process. Sitting in the dark room, you had to meter everything within an inch of its life. And then you photographed it. And then you go in the dark room and you kind of process your film and you hope for the best. Well, let's fast forward to, you know, 2026. Look, I retaught. Not really retired from teaching, but I retired from teaching at. At university. But these days, and even, you know, four years ago, three years ago, it was this instant gratification and just spray and pray so you can shoot a thousand frames. It costs you nothing to take those photos. I used to really pressure my students and goes, guys, think before you press the trigger. Consider what you're metering, what you're looking at. You know, I gave a presentation at Waverly Camera Club the other night, and, you know, I was saying, own all four corners of your frame. So on the corners, think what your composition is. Because all too often with digital, you just. And then you bring it into the computer, and then you spend 99% of your time in the computer, and, well, we should be out there 99% shooting 1% in the computer. So getting it right in camera. I'm. I'm very much one for getting it right in camera, so. Right. You know, and I come across a lot of people who have never, ever held a light meter. [00:07:53] Speaker B: I mean, it's so. It's so different now, though, because it's. If you can see it on the screen, you know, in the viewfinder, is there, you know, in your opinion now, is. Is a light meter something that. That a photographer should use today, or is it just something that they should at least know what it is and what it does and when you should use it? Like, what do you. What do you mean? [00:08:14] Speaker C: Look, I think you got to choose a light meter for the. I guess the genre or the craft of photography you're in. So if I'm thinking portraiture, yeah, you can use, you know, today's, you know, mirrorless cameras have live exposure view. Don't get me wrong, I love my camera with live exposure view. But, you know, when I'm setting up, you know, groups of 150 kids in a shot and I'm using flash photography, there's no such thing as live view, live exposure mode. And, you know, I want my photographers and all my photographers that shoot, they go with a light meter, they get the light exactly right. Where you know, my, my retouchers don't have to sit there and process the image to get it right. We get it right right there in situ. So to understand, you know, understand how flash photography works and how that sort of stuff works is just so vitally important. But you know, in the landscape, you know, dare I say, in the olden days, you know, I ran around with a spot meter because I was shooting 4 by 5 film. So you'd sit there and you'd meter, well, what's going to be zone three, what's going to be zone zero, what's going to be zone nine, 10? And then you go, okay, I'm going to expose for zone three and then I'm going to process for zone 12 because I need to pull back the process because it's out of the dynamic range. You know, it's those sorts of things that I think, you know, in the olden days, we say in the olden days, zone system taught me a lot about how to get it right in camera and how to, you know, expose for what you're trying to capture. Yep. [00:09:59] Speaker A: No, I think it's, I think it's really valuable that level of understanding because you know, current, especially pro grade bodies, you know, like the, the Canon R52 and the R3 that Justin has, you know, they have pre, pre shot systems, you know that before you even, you [00:10:18] Speaker B: know, capture, before the moment it captures, [00:10:20] Speaker A: before you've even pressed the button properly, you know, there's, it's, it's. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Think Sony's working on one where it actually does the shoot that's on tomorrow for you today, so you don't even have to go. So it just, it just, it records, it records a day in advance the images that you're thinking about while you're asleep. That'll be cool when that comes out, isn't it? I think that'll just be the fear, the scary, weird things that we've been hearing about. AI and cameras is getting a bit. Do you follow any of that sort of stuff, Craig? Like AI photography, cameras, all that sort of thing? [00:10:56] Speaker C: Yes and no. I use AI. We use AI for certain retouching aspects to, for background extensions, things like that. But for camera, AI, things like that. Look, I'm kind of, I know about it, I know it's out there. Do I need to know about it? I need to be aware of it at the moment. AI has its place at the moment, but I think it's still a land of the unknown, really. Yeah, yeah, I agree yeah, so I'm following it. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah, same. And I think that the scary, for me, intimidating bit about AI is that it seems to be rampant and it's unchecked. You know, people are just adopting it because it's currently the buzz, it's the trend, it's, you know, but I think there's far greater implications that we're, we're only just starting to uncover. But that is a bit deep for a Thursday morning. Sorry, you were going to say it is deep. [00:11:57] Speaker C: It is a deep and meaningful conversation. But, you know, I guess look at it this way is look at AI now compared to 2007, 8, 9, 10, when people were just buying, converting from film to digital and people were saying, oh, this is going to be the end of photography and look at us now. And photography is never going to go away because AI is great in certain circumstances, but it doesn't stifle, it doesn't take away the individual creativity. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Or the experience. [00:12:38] Speaker C: Or the experience. That's exactly right. Or the experience, the realism. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't replace realism. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Yep, yep, very good point. We're going to dive into a little bit more about your story and obviously we'd like to roll back the clock. But just before we do that, Justin, do you want to say good morning to some peeps? [00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a couple of people in the chat. I wonder. It's a little quiet. They're quiet. Little, little birds in the chat. The chat wasn't working last week, so hopefully it's up and running again. It was working on Monday, so hopefully we're all good to go. Philip Johnson, good morning. Felicity Johnson, good morning. [00:13:13] Speaker A: The Johnson's are strong today. [00:13:14] Speaker B: The Johnson's not related. David Mascara from San Francisco. Good to see you. Lucinda Goodwin, good morning. And Dennis Smith says. Mr. Wetgen, I appreciate it. [00:13:26] Speaker C: Thanks, Dennis. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Good to see you all here. If you have questions for Craig or you just want to throw something in the chat, throw it in. That's why we go live. It's more fun when we can have you guys direct the conversation a bit too. So jump in. [00:13:41] Speaker A: And if you, if you are in the chat and you haven't said good morning yet, jump in and leave us a comment and say good day. Let us know who's here. And if you're, if you are watching along and you feel so inclined, please give us a, like. It helps out a lot because it lets other folks know that we are creating content, you know, in a, in a sea of content. We're out there floating on our own little rowboat. But. And if you're new here, you know, give us a subscribe and tickle the bell icon and that way you get a notification of every live episode. We only do live episodes twice a week and you'll get the notifications in your time zone. Just makes it easy for you to spend time with us. [00:14:17] Speaker C: Really? [00:14:17] Speaker A: That's all I hear. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Join us. I think that worked, Greg. I think this is a new name. Kiralee Cooper, 1530. Is that a new name? Cool koala picture. Anyway, where to from here, Greg? I've got so many questions already. [00:14:34] Speaker A: I know there's so much to cover and it's nothing to do with your age, Craig. Oh, partially. But anyway, we won't that topic again. Let's go right back to the early days before you picked up a camera before your gig at NASA. What was the first spark for you to be a creative visual artist? [00:15:01] Speaker C: The first spark for me, I was. Look, early days. I picked up my first camera at 10. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Oh, that's early. [00:15:11] Speaker C: Yes. And I steal it. [00:15:13] Speaker B: Or was it. [00:15:14] Speaker C: No, I have, I have my camera sitting right here on my shelf as well. That one, that one. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:15:25] Speaker C: Grab it. [00:15:26] Speaker B: What is it? [00:15:27] Speaker A: We love show and tell. [00:15:30] Speaker C: Look at this. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Oh, cool. It's a Bellows camera. [00:15:37] Speaker C: That's a 1956 egg for Billy. So it shot six by nine raw film. And yeah, this was my first camera. [00:15:53] Speaker A: So even at the age of 10, you went straight into medium format. I'm still working my way up to it. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I still haven't shot medium format. One day. [00:16:03] Speaker C: One day. One day. But, you know, this was my grandfather's camera and I was obsessed with, I guess the magic behind. Because really back then it was magical because you, you, you, you know, click the shutter and you, you know, you went click here. Hang on. Yeah, you know, you hear that little click and you're either, you're either freezing time, freezing the action, or, you know, I was obsessed with waterfalls. So Obviously, you know, 10 years old, I couldn't go very far except for my backyard to, you know, in my neighborhood to take photos. But the older I get, the older I got. So I turned 16 and my first job was at a Express photo in Granby, Connecticut. And again, I worked at processing everybody's holiday snaps and doing all that sort of load and film into the machine. And then I get to load my film in the machine. I get to do, you know, load it in the dark room and process it and. But that, that magic and that smell the chemistry. And, you know, that's what's wrong with me these days. Right. [00:17:31] Speaker A: It explains a lot for all of us. [00:17:33] Speaker C: I'm sure it does explain a lot, you know, and that the obsession just grew from there. So I. I graduated from processing everybody's holiday snaps. And you'd look. I think that's one of the funniest thing. And I like telling that story to my students as well as you'd see, you know, Christmas, Easter, fourth of July, Labor Day, family holiday, Thanksgiving, and the next Christmas on one roll of film. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Oh, what that. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Isn't that a great story, though? [00:18:14] Speaker B: Like two or three photos each event. Yep. Epic. So simple. [00:18:23] Speaker A: A little side question. Did you ever come across. When you were processing photos, did you ever come across photos that made you double take for any reason? [00:18:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:33] Speaker C: Weird. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Crazy. Naked. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Kinky. [00:18:37] Speaker C: Of course. Weird. Oh, there was stuff that I just like, oh, okay. It was. Yeah, there's a lot of risky stuff. Especially when I moved to another lab. I moved to a lab, and it was in East Hartford. And. Yeah, we always had the. The. The usuals. And we'd always say, well, who's gonna process this one and who's gonna print this one? I'm like, oh, do I have to? Yeah, we won't get into it, I guess. [00:19:10] Speaker B: I guess I hadn't really thought about this, but. But people have, you know, weirdos have been sending people dick pics forever. It's just. It used to be in the mail and. Which. Which means some poor person in a photo lab had to process it. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Had to see them. Yeah. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Was there. Was there any, like, limit? Was there any rules around that stuff, or was it literally anything that's on the film, you just process it, move on. There was never a point where you're like, hey, you can't. You can't bring that shit in here. You know, you can't. I'm not developing this anymore. [00:19:43] Speaker C: You know, at, you know, 17, 18 years old. You know, even then, even today, if you see anything younger than that age, you really question. And you'd be bringing it to your supervisor and going, right, yeah, get the [00:20:03] Speaker B: police or something maybe to have a look at this. Yeah, yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker C: But I. I really. I. I just got to a point. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I wouldn't do. I would never put my hand up to. To process or print it. It just wasn't. No, I just couldn't do it. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so easy. Everything's just digital, so no one has to do that stuff anymore. But yeah, that was. That was it. Every single image taken, someone had to process it. Unless the person themselves had their own darkroom. [00:20:30] Speaker C: Yep. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So interesting. [00:20:34] Speaker A: It is. [00:20:34] Speaker C: Oh, it's. Yeah, but, yeah, go on. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Sorry, mate. [00:20:39] Speaker C: No, that's all right. Go ahead. [00:20:40] Speaker A: I was just gonna say so, you know, between the age of 10 and 16, you're processing photos for everyone else and you're getting more and more involved in the craft for yourself, I imagine. Were you also bringing in your own roles of film to process there, or you taking care of those yourself at home? [00:20:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I was definitely taking care of black and white. I was processing either at work or usually processing it at home in the laundry, you know, blocking out the laundry room and doing all that sort of fun stuff and then taking the film back into. Back into work and, you know, moved into printing everybody's enlargements, and I was printing my own enlargements. But I really. I really had an eye for wanting to get into photojournalism. So I was photographing all the. For the local newspapers. I was photographing sports photography events. I started shooting some weddings, I started photographing, you know, live stage events, things like that. And, you know, the lab that I was working with, the owner was good friends with my father, and I worked with the owner of the lab. And I said, look, I really want to buy a 302.8. And it's kind of out of my budget, Way out of my budget. And, you know, this is going. This is in 1986, remind you, and at 16 years old and you want to buy a $3,000 lens. Yeah, that's a lot of paint. Yeah, it was a bit. It was a bit rich for my. For my liking. But he. He said, look, I'll buy it for you. You just pay it off with the way. With. Keep working and keep doing. So I just kept working and kept working and I would just. I just paid off the lens. And that's how. Yeah, that's how I, you know, got into the, you know, the photojournalism side of things. So I just was. I loved sports photography. I wanted to be Walter oos. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Who's Walter Ooze? [00:22:40] Speaker C: Walter Ooze. I double O Se. I think Walter oo. So Walter photographed for Sports Illustrated. And so then I. Because I was so obsessed with photographing sports, I sent a letter to Sports Illustrated, which I still have. It's somewhere in my cacophony of memorabilia, camera photography wise. And I got a letter back from. For Sports Illustrated about how I can get involved with and what to do and what processes and what schools I need to look at about becoming a photographer at Sports Illustrated. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Wow. And how did that, how do you think that that generosity that, that your, your employer said, look, I'll buy it for you, you can just pay it off through working what. That feels like a pretty pivotal point for your life as a photographer. That if that hadn't happened, do you think you'd be in a very different place? [00:23:48] Speaker C: Oh, I don't think I. Wow, that's big. That's a deep and meaningful question. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Well, it's one of those sort of sliding doors kind of concepts, you know, that if you, if, if that hadn't been offered to you, where would you be? That's an infinite question. But [00:24:09] Speaker C: I don't know. I probably just would have kept using the, the camera gear that I already had. I would have tried to keep saving up. I would have, I would have done something to make it happen. You know, it's one of those things that if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way of getting it when you put it out to the universe when you verbalize and you know, as you know, I'm a firm believer in mental health and mental well being and getting stuff out of your head. Verbalizing what you want because this is just a storyteller. But your, your words and how you talk with friends and you put it in writing too. You put it, put it on a piece of paper or I used to tell my students, you know, if you want that car, print off that car, put it on your pin board and that's your goal. If you want to buy that car, you need to find means to buy that car. So I found means to buy that lens. You know, my dad wasn't. My dad could have bought it for me, but what, you know, he wanted me to work for it, so I worked for it. And that's, you know, that's again, you know, working for and working hard for what you want to achieve. You are your master of your own domain. So the harder you work for it, you know, you're gonna get what you want if you verbalize it, if you dream it and yeah, you can become it. Yep. [00:25:41] Speaker A: Yeah. We had a chat a few weeks ago with past guest of the show, an all round champion, Lucinda Goodwin. What did she call it? [00:25:48] Speaker B: Was it a Hawaii Woo Woo Vision board? Vision board, yeah, I'm still working on mine. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:25:56] Speaker B: I'm working on one I haven't printed out. I've got my big calendar up, but I haven't printed out any pictures yet. But I mean, do you remember the book the Secret? Craig, when that come out, that book the Secret and it went viral? Well, whatever viral was back then, it was popular. I guess this didn't go viral, but it was, it was that kind of thought process, but it kind of took it to a, a space. I guess that, that worked really well for selling books. But I, I really resonated with the idea at the time that it just, that putting it out into the world and saying it out loud and putting it up on a board, it, it makes your mind look for the opportunities that might make that happen. It opens you to opportunities in everyday life. I think rather than just having your head down and being busy and forgetting about this thing that you really want to achieve, if you constantly aware of it, everything that happens in life, you think, oh, is that a way for me to, to move towards the thing I'm trying to do? And, and it's just been that, that awareness, I think that was, that was kind of the, the real secret. Whereas I think that book the Secret basically said if you, if you say you want a million dollars enough, a check will just, should hopefully just arrive in the mail one day. [00:27:15] Speaker A: I've been doing that most of my life. [00:27:18] Speaker B: I mean it's, it's a matter of time. Greg. Any day now? [00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah, any day. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Have you checked the mail today? [00:27:25] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I did get one from a Nigerian prince related to. But the check hasn't. I've sent him all my bank details. The money hasn't landed so I don't know what's going on there. [00:27:35] Speaker C: I'm happy to write you a rubber check [00:27:40] Speaker B: just quickly before we move on. I just pulled up so I was like I haven't heard of Walter oos. But it turns out while I haven't heard of him, I've seen his epic images many, many times of like Michael Jordan insane. Like those, the. Yeah, it's crazy. I can see why you were like I want to, I want to do this look. [00:28:01] Speaker C: And I took a lot of lessons from the more, you know, when I was teaching and the more I look back listening to interviews with Walter and he would photograph from the most obscure angle and the most obscure location to get something different and a different shot and a different perspective that you wouldn't normally see. And that's kind of how I, I kind of look at my photography and you know, I'm sure we'll talk about my walks for well being and yeah, look at that, look at that viewpoint. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Yeah I mean. [00:28:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:35] Speaker C: Holy crap. [00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It is crazy. This is for those just listening. It's that shot of Michael Jordan from above, over the top of, like a beautiful blue court. But it's that, the shadow, his pose, it's perfectly framed. Everything. It's, it's. You couldn't imagine a better way to shoot that image ever. [00:28:58] Speaker A: Was that shot on film? [00:29:01] Speaker C: That was definitely shot on film. Wow. [00:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:03] Speaker A: That's insane. [00:29:05] Speaker C: So if you think about, you know, this is. I'm really glad you brought this up, this photograph up, Justin, and, and, and you, you researched him and brought him up because it's just that point of view. I mean, look at aerial photography now. And everybody loves aerial photography because it's a point of view you don't get to see every day unless you're staring at a window of a place, plane. You know, that's like, why. Shooting at a dog's point of view, you know, a dog's view, you know, shooting. Getting down low, getting down and dirty. [00:29:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:35] Speaker C: And that's what really resonated with me. And that's why I, I wrote that letter to Sports Illustrated. I went down that path and it led me down to other paths. But every path and journey that you take down in, in your life, in your career, will lead you down different ways as well. Yep, yep, yes, exactly. [00:29:57] Speaker A: So you're shooting for Sports Illustrated. How does that then relate to you landing a gig at NASA? [00:30:04] Speaker C: Well, I didn't shoot. That's correct. I didn't shoot at work. Sports. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Sorry, I thought I heard you say that. That's. [00:30:09] Speaker C: I want. I wanted to be a sports illustrator. That was my dream. [00:30:15] Speaker B: What? What? [00:30:16] Speaker C: Look, that was my dream. And, you know, everybody has to have a dream, you know, whether it's being a Formula one race car driver or, you know, my dream was always doing what I'm doing right now, talking to you guys, running my own photography business. And I've never not been in photography. So it just, it just kept leading me down to wanting more from my photography. And I was out at a. I was out on the sidelines of a baseball game and with my beautiful.302.8 on my monopod and, you know, photographing a baseball game and this other photographer, we're chit chatting away and I'm shooting for one newspaper, he's shooting for another. And, you know, I was just saying, just wanted more. I wanted more from photography. There was just something. It was just eating me alive. I just wanted more from photography. Photography. I said, it's all Good. And well, me working at a lab, doing this sort of stuff. And he goes, you ever heard of Brooks Institute of Photography? And I'm like, no. He goes, well, check them out. I've heard a lot about them. It's an amazing school in Santa Barbara, California. And I'm like, okay. So I ran home those days, email didn't exist, so it was snail mail. And I still have the letter too, of the letter that I got back from Brooks and the book that came saying, come and join. And I looked at the photography in that book and it was just like, oh, you can create this stuff. It's like it was all this commercial work and it was all this fancy models and all that sort of stuff. I'm just like, wow, mind blowing. Just opened up my, my, my world to a whole new the world. Because what you saw in those days was either through books or newspapers or magazines. So there was a lot of magazines I used to follow like Galen Rowell. I used to love Galen Rowell's photography and just seeing the climbing photography that I used to do and I just wanted more. It was just like I was salivating. So I literally packed up my, my car without even being accepted at Brooks Institute of Photography and drove clear across the US Showed up in the door in Santa Barbara and said, I want to study here. And they said, write us a check and study. So I did. And yeah, so I studied for three years at, at Brooks and got my degree in industrial scientific photography. And my teacher, Vern Miller, I'll never forget him, great guy, just was always an encourager and inspiring kind of photographer. Now Vern Miller worked on some of the first photography and evidence photography around the Shroud of Turin. You heard of that? [00:33:28] Speaker A: Not sure what that is. [00:33:28] Speaker C: No. [00:33:29] Speaker B: I was going to say, what's that? [00:33:31] Speaker C: If you look up the Shroud of Turin, Turin, it was the Shroud that everybody held thinking that it was an impression of Jesus. So he was, he was doing all the investigative science photographically through infrared, ultraviolet, you name it. So he was. And Brooks was heavily involved in that sort of stuff. So again, you look at that sort of stuff when you're, you, you're 21, 22 years old, you're just like, oh, this is just so cool. Y and I got the internship through him, you know, to go have an intern down at Brooks and at, at NASA and yeah, lived in LA for, for a while and you know, kept going from la, living in la, going to NASA and then going to back to Brooks for studying and going back down and it was just, it was just such a cool experience, you know, I got to see some of the first photos coming in from when Comet Shoemaker Levy impacted Jupiter. Yep. That Galileo photographed. And I watched the film come out of the film recorder that just came from Galileo to the satellite dish to Jeffrey Polkman Laboratory. And the film being recorded of the impact. I mean, come on, my hair is back, my neck are rising kind of thing, you know, when you're pretty magical, isn't it? [00:35:09] Speaker A: Is that magic again? [00:35:11] Speaker C: There's that magic. So you just keep getting inspired of cooler and cooler things when you surround yourself with something that you're just so passionately in love with. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:25] Speaker B: This is mad. Just quickly. So you were, you were, you were, you were in NASA as an intern, admittedly, but still, you got to see cool stuff like that. [00:35:35] Speaker C: Yes. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Now tell me, gut feeling. Moon landing. Real. Not real. Where were you? [00:35:41] Speaker C: I knew that was gonna come up. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Such an idiot. I'm sorry. [00:35:45] Speaker B: No, I'm serious. You, you, you understand, you understand film and video and how they move images around through space and all that sort of stuff. You've seen it, You've been next to it. [00:35:56] Speaker C: I've seen it. I've photographed moon rocks. I've, I've seen the photography firsthand of all, you know, man on the moon, there's no atmosphere. The photography is like ridiculously sharp. Yes. It was being shot on a Hasselblad. It was just mind blowing. [00:36:19] Speaker B: I mean, is that what they took? Is that what they took up there? Hasselblad? [00:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah, especially. Yeah. [00:36:23] Speaker C: And they left them there. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Really? [00:36:26] Speaker C: They're still on the moon. All the host of bloods that they brought up there are still there, allegedly. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Imagine if Artemis actually eventually lands on the moon and they pick them up and bring them back. [00:36:37] Speaker B: Oh, they would be worth so much [00:36:40] Speaker C: money, it'd be off the charts. [00:36:45] Speaker A: But some, some billionaire would buy one for sure. [00:36:51] Speaker C: So. Yeah, so that's. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. What an incredible experience at that age. [00:36:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And I got to, you know, hold some of the first digital cameras, which I have. Not from NASA, but I have. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Oh, they were not interested. [00:37:05] Speaker C: One of the first commercial digital cameras. [00:37:09] Speaker B: Oh, that's that. Yeah, that's the one everyone talks about, the Nikon with the, the giant codec. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Is that it? [00:37:19] Speaker B: Like a serial port? Like a. Yeah. [00:37:21] Speaker C: Attached with a SCSI serial port type thing. And. Yeah. So check this. I mean, you can probably see the size of the sensor in there. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Oh, it's. Yeah, I've got one of them in my phone. [00:37:36] Speaker C: Gosh, I think it was one point. I think it was 1.2 megapixel. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. So is. [00:37:45] Speaker A: That looks in great condition too. [00:37:47] Speaker B: Was, Was that your. Yeah, it looks mint. Was that. [00:37:49] Speaker C: No, it was not in. It was not. It was not mine. It was, it was gifted to me through a friend, but. Yeah, but it was, it was a camera that was used here. So that, that was not the, the NASA camera, that's for sure. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you could, you could tell that story. I mean, people would believe. [00:38:09] Speaker C: I could. Yeah. [00:38:10] Speaker B: I mean, that's it in the same theme of the moon landing. Just. No, just pretend. I hate. I say it all the time. My brother in law's, he. It really riles him up when I tell him and I start, you throw out some of the, like the popular theories as to why it wasn't real and he just get you to get away. He's like, no, that's. No, they went there. Look, look at this, look at this. Look. I'm like, oh, yeah, but what about the flag? The flag waving. [00:38:39] Speaker C: It's just like waving. The flag was waving and moving because they were moving the fl. They were putting the flag in the ground and it had a stick to keep it. [00:38:49] Speaker B: So it, to hold it out. [00:38:51] Speaker C: Hold it out. [00:38:52] Speaker B: So it didn't just look like a sad, sad flag like this. [00:38:55] Speaker C: Correct. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:56] Speaker A: Couldn't have a sad flag on the moon, Justin. [00:38:58] Speaker C: No. [00:38:58] Speaker B: It wouldn't be national celebration, I always say. [00:39:02] Speaker C: My, my, my, my comment is, is there's, there are so many people involved in that. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Something would have come out. [00:39:12] Speaker C: Surely China or Russia would have completely debunked it as well, but they, they haven't. The evidence is so clear that we were there. But anyway, that's a long story. But anyway, we could fight with that all day long, Justin. [00:39:32] Speaker B: I just, I, I like the discussion because it's fun. I'm open, I'm only open. I'm open to the idea that it's possible. This is my theory. It's possible that some of the footage was set up in a, you know, like a sound stage or whatever because they didn't want like what happens if the feed doesn't work or something like that. You know what I mean? [00:39:58] Speaker A: Like, I thought about that a couple years ago. Did they like Scarlett Johansson was in it. She was like a marketing exec and she, she was the one that. Allegedly it was. Tatum Channing was one of the actors. It was only a couple years ago. Fly me to the moon. Maybe I'm not sure, but it's worth checking out. It's fun because it does set up a sound soundstage just in case. And then the twist in the story was that they were going to just do the sound stage anyway just to be safe and cut off the feed from the NASA cameras. But anyway, you'll have to watch the movie. [00:40:30] Speaker B: I'll watch the movie because that's, that's that theory. No, no, I said I'll what? I will. I'll watch it because I haven't seen it. But that's the theory that makes sense in my head because they'd be like, well, we can't have this big, like this big thing, you know, the whole, the whole, the world is watching and then something happens with the feed and it just doesn't work. And we can flip to the, you know, to the pretend one. That's the only thing that would make sense in my head other than, yeah, it's plausible. There's no way. [00:40:58] Speaker C: Just like the one comment here. But the Earth is flat. Yeah, right. [00:41:03] Speaker B: There's a lot of evidence for that too. [00:41:06] Speaker A: Just a couple of other quick comments before we move forward. From David Mascaro in San Fran. I wanted to apply to Brooks Books. Ended up at San Fran State. And another little refreshing comment from our friend Dennis, sitting on the deck with a coffee after getting home at 3am from a light painting session, listening to Craig. Dream it and it can happen. [00:41:27] Speaker C: Absolutely dream it. [00:41:31] Speaker A: A question about your time at NASA and also I want to just ask you a clarifying question about your choice of study. But first let's, let's talk about NASA. What was the single greatest, as a visual creative, as a photographer, what was the single greatest lesson you learned from your time there? [00:41:58] Speaker C: Anything's possible. [00:42:02] Speaker A: Lovely, lovely answer. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Is that in terms of your seeing teams of people come together to do amazing things and you're just like, wow. If you know, like it as in this has never been done before. These people are going to do that. And it opens your mind to the fact that anything's possible. [00:42:21] Speaker C: Anything's possible. Research, science, you know, some of the fondest memories was watching, you know, video production of these guys sitting in the back room. This, all these video gear around and there were. Trying to figure out what h. Why Galileo's main antenna never opened. So the science behind, you know, opening that, that main antenna, what happened, why it didn't open. Going through all of that scientific, their own research and looking back at the footage that, you know, anything's possible, anything can happen and anything can break Nothing's perfect. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Yep. [00:43:03] Speaker C: Perfection is only in your mind. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Yep. [00:43:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:43:10] Speaker B: What an amazing place to start your career. You know, like that's. Yeah, that's insane. So cool. [00:43:17] Speaker C: If I didn't study, like. You know, you mentioned Greg before is what led me down the industrial scientific photography degree path was I was just fascinated by freezing things. I was fascinated with infrared film. I was fascinated with photographing things under ultraviolet and using, you know, having ultraviolet filters on the front of your lens and you can't see through it because. But the light, the lights right there. Oh, you know, all light is right in front of you. Yeah. And it just. That's just something that just fascinated me. But I think it set me up. It set me up in good stead from the standpoint of organization documentation. Because in. In when I was all through Brooks, you had to create these computational books and. Do I. Yeah, I do. I do have them. I do have them here. So [00:44:20] Speaker B: I've always just got everything from. I know I don't. I haven't got anything from the three years ago. I wouldn't know where to find. [00:44:27] Speaker A: You've got all your camera bags. [00:44:30] Speaker B: That's true. [00:44:31] Speaker C: So as I said, that's the book that I got from Brooks that was sent to me and it had all this amazing photography in here. Oh, wow. You know, commercial stuff with who photographers are and just whatever. But I still. I. There's some things that you can keep, some things you can't keep, but. So that was my Industrial four computational book, and that's all of my research and processes to, you know, come up with my. Some of my final photographs. Like this. [00:45:12] Speaker B: Oh, that is awesome. Hang on, let me make that bigger bullet. [00:45:17] Speaker C: And that's a bullet in mid flight. [00:45:19] Speaker A: What? [00:45:20] Speaker B: A bullet. [00:45:22] Speaker C: A bullet going through matchsticks in mid flight. [00:45:27] Speaker A: Wow. [00:45:30] Speaker B: How did you do that? [00:45:31] Speaker A: Oh, you can even see whether. [00:45:33] Speaker B: You have to tell us now. You've got it written down there. How'd you do it? [00:45:36] Speaker A: But you can even see where the. What is it called? Where there's that sort of. That V shape. The shockwave. [00:45:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:44] Speaker A: Look at that. [00:45:46] Speaker B: I don't know. I think. I think this was done on a soundstage. I don't know. Photoshop. [00:45:49] Speaker A: That's fake. [00:45:50] Speaker B: I don't know if this is. This is what he learns at NASA. He learns how to fake stuff. [00:45:54] Speaker C: But you know, that. How did you do that? [00:45:56] Speaker A: AI for decades. [00:45:57] Speaker C: And that, that. That's. That's how we had to test. We tested what a silencer does. Oh, really? [00:46:06] Speaker B: Oh, is that the shockwave bouncing back or something. [00:46:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:10] Speaker B: In the, in the one behind. [00:46:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Oh wow. [00:46:15] Speaker B: This is insane. [00:46:17] Speaker C: So look, this is. It's called shadow graphs. So these are shadow graphs. So they are. Would put a. They were on 8 by 10 film and you be in complete. You'd have to work. And this is milliseconds. So we're talking. I think if I look at the time. 0.00166 of a second. [00:46:48] Speaker A: Wow. [00:46:48] Speaker B: So that's a 0.1 millisecond. [00:46:52] Speaker C: No, 0.001 of one second. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Of one second and a millisecond would be 0.01. [00:47:01] Speaker C: That's a hundredth of a millisecond. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:04] Speaker C: Wow. [00:47:05] Speaker B: That's insane. [00:47:06] Speaker A: That's amazing. Hey, great question. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Would you ever consider having that book professionally photographed or scanned and turned into an actual coffee table book? Do you think it. Is there something there that. About making that sort of information? [00:47:25] Speaker C: Never considered that. [00:47:26] Speaker A: You know, to be around forever like even if it's just a digital format. [00:47:31] Speaker C: Yeah, never, never, never never considered that. But [00:47:37] Speaker A: got you thinking now, haven't I? [00:47:38] Speaker C: Oh, you got me thinking. Yeah. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Even just talking through it on like a little YouTube video or something but with. With high res kind of photographs of the page and, and things like that. Yeah. Interesting. [00:47:50] Speaker C: So like this is my lighting studio class. [00:47:53] Speaker A: Yep. [00:47:54] Speaker C: And then we had to photograph. So there's my you know, light drawings was set up and then that one photograph it's actually really hard to see because it's in it's 4x5 film. You can. Could kind of almost see. It's hard to see that. But I don't think I've got any prints of that. But I had to photograph a mirrored cube so. And lighting the mirror cube. My extra credit was having all. All the sides different colors. Can you see that mirror cube? [00:48:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see yellow and. Yeah. [00:48:38] Speaker C: Yellow, blue, purple and pink. So that was on black glass and I had to photograph. So that was my extra credit is I had to work out how to photograph a reflection. Get the different color on a reflection. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Wow. So it's almost. They're like problem solving puzzles with photography to. To be able to have, you know, scientific application and, and things like that. [00:49:08] Speaker C: It's yeah. Problem solving not just through photography but through lighting. And that's what set me up for a true understanding of educationally of lighting. And I learned even more about lighting. The older I got, the more I I shot professionally and, and. And things like that. But yeah, I'm seeing questions in here people. There's oh my God. Yeah, look, the, the. Just a short answer is photographing those bullets in mid flight. It was a shadow graph. The light source was an arc flash which was a one millionth of a second arc flash. So. And it was all through a. So you had a, you had a trigger on the muzzle of the, of the gun. You'd fire the gun. I mean, believe it or not, Brooks had its own gun tunnel. So. Yeah, so. And it would just in incentive with them, bullet would pass the. Or it was, it was an audio trigger and the arc flash would go off. But you'd have an 8 by 10 piece of film right there because it's called, so it's called the shadow graph. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Wow, that's. [00:50:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean that's. Like I said, that's only one of my industrial classes and you know, one of the other industrial classes was experimenting with different wavelengths of light, you know, infrared, ultraviolet, things like that. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:39] Speaker C: It just led me down just how cool photography was. Yep. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Do you ever play with, have you, have you played with infrared converted cameras later in your career creatively like, have you, have you ever brought any of this stuff back into the creative side of what you do now? [00:51:02] Speaker C: Yeah, look, I, I did. I shot a lot of, a lot of film, a lot of infrared film even. I was shooting, you know, weddings on infrared, you know, 26 years ago. And do I, I've played with trying to convert a digital. I, I do have old cameras here I'd love to convert to, to infrared, like strictly that it shoots infrared. I just haven't gone and done it. I don't know why I just haven't gone and done. But I know a lot of people that do. I like converting my digital camera to a pinhole camera. That's for sure. That's fun. [00:51:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it's something I've been playing with. I'm going to do it. It's just I'm having a hard time justifying the cost and picking which camera to do. But because it's, because it's purely just for fun. So it's sort of like, it's an easy thing for me to keep pushing off and pushing off because I think it's. By the time I convert the camera and buy the filters that I want because I'm going to do a full spectrum conversion. I think you see how they do that and then you just drop in different wavelength filters depending on what you're trying to do, which is, which is super versatile. But yeah, it's, I think it'll be an expensive Exercise. So it's. I just keep going. Oh, not, not yet. [00:52:30] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [00:52:31] Speaker B: Anyway, very interesting. Oh, another question. [00:52:35] Speaker C: Yeah, go ahead. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Another question about, just about your studies. So you obviously you chose the industrial side of things. Was there. So how many sort of tracks were there at Brookes? And like were you presented with multiple options like how you can do commercial or. And this and this here, here are the different options. And you ended up choosing industrial. Like how did that process work? Picking. [00:53:01] Speaker C: You could have. Look, I, I minored in color technology, but so I could have done a color major, I could have done photojournalism major, I could have done, have done a commercial major. And believe it or not, you know what, my end of year, my end, my graduating portfolio. So you know, just like with every education you have a, you have, photography wise, you have a, an exhibition. So my graduating exhibition was all landscape photography. So it was all shot on. Yeah, I know, go figure, right? I got an industrial scientific photography, a degree with a, you know, a minor in color technology. I worked at NASA as a, as an intern. But you know, and the thing, I wasn't just doing that. I, I also ended up working in LA for shooting car photography. I was working in LA shooting some fashion work, assisting. More. More I should say. But I was, I was experimenting with all sorts of facets of photography. So you know, I just broadened by NASA was just one, you know, arm of a direction that I could have gone in. But yeah, just going to LA and photographing car shoots or assisting in car shoots and then going up to San Luis Obispo and photographing with a photographer shooting fashion, you know, and I was a film runner. So I have to run from all the way up there, go all the way down to la, bring the roll with me, sit and wait for them to do a snip test, then jump back in my car, go all the way back two hours, drive all the way back up with a snip test. [00:54:51] Speaker A: What's a snip really? [00:54:53] Speaker C: Yeah, so a snip test is. So the photographer would, you'd photograph a roll of film and you'd, you'd have your specific exposure that you'd expose for. And it was shooting slide, so transparency film. So snip test is you would do a six inch snip. So you would pro, you would pull the roll out in the dark, obviously snip it, suck the roll back into the, into the canister process that run the snip test back up. He would look at it and go, it needs to be Push or pulled. So it needs to be pushed for more exposure or pulled to hold back the exposure. So I did that. I swept floors at, you know, at a, at a job. Do you know the car photography job. I, I was sweeping floors and then he had to step out. He goes, can you finish the job for me? And I'm like, okay. So I had to jump in and finish the job form and I was just photographing the inside of an engine of a, of a car. So [00:56:00] Speaker B: that's so cool. Just. Yeah, you never know where the opportunities are. [00:56:03] Speaker C: No, and that's right. I mean and you, you, you make your own opportunities by trying all sorts of different opportunities. NASA was just one opportunity working and, and assisting in LA was another. Yep. And in that time I guess that now that brings me. Why, why am I talking to you guys? I'm talking to you guys because I moved to Australia. So I moved to Australia 30 years ago. So it was through all that Vern, my teacher said look, how'd you like to go to Australia and get your masters and teach down in Australia? And I'm like, say what? But we're saying that my, my best mate who I'm kind of looking a photograph of him on the wall here, he was already here. He was my, he was my college roommate as well at Brooks and he was, he already came over as in the exchange program with Brooks and RMIT here in Melbourne. And so I kind of knew of what was what he was doing and when I was offered to me and I'm like, like I said, say what? I took the opportunity but I still had to wait a little bit. So then I moved to Seattle, Washington and I worked at a food photography studio. So there you go. So another opportunity, another avenue and facet of photography I was experimenting with and yeah, it's, I waited out everything to happen to get to move to Australia. So I packed up my life, packed it in boxes, put it on a boat, flew to Australia and my, I obviously got here before my, my life got here because I had to wait. I think it was like, like eight or nine weeks for my life to actually arrive on a boat. Yeah, go figure. [00:58:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's nuts for your life. Was it in like an old wooden trunk? [00:58:22] Speaker C: I put it in all, I put it all big, big thick, double walled boxes. I think I brought four boxes, four big giant boxes over it because I remember we had to go and pick it up and we needed a, we needed a, a van, a big van to bring, get my boxes out of Customs out of Port Melbourne. But yeah, that was 30, 30 years ago last month I moved here. So 1st of February 1993. [00:58:55] Speaker B: Excuse me for one second guys, someone's bashing on my door. I'll be back in one sec. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Okay, very good. Just while Justin stepped out, let's just. I want to stay up. On top of the comments, where were we? Bruce Moyle said, damn, I should have snooped around Craig's office when I slept on the floor there before. Befop the last couple of years surrounded by cool stuff. You didn't even know it, Bruce, that you were surrounded by some very cool stuff. We're very disappointed in you. We're not snooping more. Who else we got here? We've got David Mascara from San Fran. I believe the Nikon F5 had a commercial of stopping a bullet. [00:59:33] Speaker C: They did, I do remember that. Yep. [00:59:36] Speaker B: Photographing a bullet. [00:59:37] Speaker A: Or. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Or they just shot an F5 and it literally just stopped the bullet because that. I've got one. It might, it might withstand a bullet. [00:59:46] Speaker A: That's a beefy camera from Dennis Smith. Came here for the mental health chat. Leave wanting to photograph bullets. Be careful, Dennis. [00:59:55] Speaker C: Be careful, Dennis. [00:59:57] Speaker B: Bullets. It's different over here. There's a difference over here. [01:00:02] Speaker A: And then David Mascara asked a question. Where, Sorry Craig, where are you originally [01:00:05] Speaker C: from in the U.S. all right, so I'm originally from. Well, I'm originally. I grew up in Simsbury, Connecticut. So Connecticut is a tiny, tiny little state sandwiched in between New York, Rhode island and Massachusetts. So it was a three hour train drive down, train ride down to New York City or a three hour train ride up to Boston. So that's where I was originally. [01:00:33] Speaker A: So you quite literally drove across the entire continent or the entire country of America Did. [01:00:38] Speaker C: I've done it. I've done it twice. I'd moved over there one way and then I went over there to my wife over there and we drove the other way. The northern route, southern route, first way, northern route the second time. [01:00:50] Speaker B: Nice. [01:00:51] Speaker C: Very nice. [01:00:52] Speaker B: Beautiful. Did, did it ever used to snow in Connecticut in the winters when you. Did you ever have like a white Christmas or whatever there? [01:00:59] Speaker C: Always had a white Christmas. Always had, always had, always. Growing up, I always had my. Because my birthday is December 16th. So just reminder if anybody wants to buy me camera gear or whatever for my birthday, I would always have a snow day. [01:01:19] Speaker B: Oh really? [01:01:20] Speaker C: Really? Yeah. Not all the time but you go quite often. I'd get a snow day on my birthday. It's the best birthday present ever. Outside in the snow Going. Sweating. Yes. It snowed a lot. There's times, you know, as a kid, you think the snow's up to here, but you know, it's because you're short. I used to deliver newspapers in the snow. Oh, it's cold, Very cold. Freezing. [01:01:45] Speaker B: But yeah, that's a, That's a good story for the kids when they're complaining about stuff. You're like, well, yeah, well, I used to have to deliver newspapers in the snow, so. [01:01:53] Speaker C: Knee deep snow. [01:01:54] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [01:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. The. The white Christmases. Yeah, that's. It just sounds so magical. [01:02:03] Speaker A: It does. But that's Hollywood's fault. [01:02:06] Speaker B: That's right. It is. It's really a. What's that movie with, you know, Kevin? [01:02:12] Speaker A: Home Alone. [01:02:13] Speaker B: Home Alone. Yeah, it's a bit of that. [01:02:15] Speaker A: He's back on the. He's back in the screen. I saw him on something the other night. I can't remember what we're watching. [01:02:20] Speaker B: He's been around. He's been. [01:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I know he's been around, but he's. He seems to have stepped up again, which is great. A couple of quick, funny comments. Says you mentioned all these California places, but you sound like an Aussie. It threw me off. You don't sound like an Aussie to me. [01:02:35] Speaker B: No, no. But I guess especially you don't. Don't sound like you're from the US as much anymore, I guess. [01:02:41] Speaker C: No. 30 years of you guys rubbing off on me, of course. And my kids. My kids mocked me and my American accent all the time, but of course I'm gonna pick up some Australianisms for sure. [01:02:57] Speaker B: Yeah. 30 years. [01:02:59] Speaker C: 30 years. [01:03:00] Speaker B: It is a. It's a beautiful, beautiful language. [01:03:05] Speaker C: Australian. [01:03:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe that's why this podcast isn't, Isn't booming overseas yet. We get. We get quite a few US Listeners, but I wonder whether they're just trying to figure out what we're saying most of the time. But anyway, what you say. Yeah, yeah. What is. Why does he keep talking about deers? I didn't realize that till I went to the States. And, you know, you say something's expensive, you say it's deer. And I said, I said that in a shop. And they were like, huh? I'm like, it's a bit dear. And they're like, what? Expensive? Okay. [01:03:39] Speaker C: Yes. [01:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't realize that wasn't a thing. [01:03:43] Speaker A: So, Craig, you've. You've landed in Australia and you've got a whole new challenge in front of you. You've not only got, you know, further education and you've have to find work, but you've got to acclimatize to a whole new culture. Walk us through that and, and what sort of impact that had on your ability to get out and shoot and pursue your craft. [01:04:09] Speaker C: Look, it was, it was daunting to say the least. You know, for, you know, 20, 21. I was 20. Sorry, 26 years old. Still not really. I mean knowing what you kind of wanted to do with your life, but you were still. I was still having fun, enjoying being young and I just. Getting on that plane was emotional. To fly to Australia and leave my, my life and my family and my friends and you know what I loved so dearly to my heart and to move to Australia, you know, getting off the plane and the people who are supposed to pick me up. This is another great story. People are supposed to pick me up. Forgot I was. Well, they didn't forget. They forgot the time, the, the, the time difference and the day difference. Yeah, if you like. And I sat at the, I sat at Melbourne Airport for about four hours before somebody came and pick me up. That was my introduction to Australia. [01:05:20] Speaker B: That's a, that's a sad. Yeah, I can just imagine you sitting on your suitcase, just rejected already. [01:05:27] Speaker C: I had one phone number, I had one, two phone numbers to call and that was in payphone days and I had to go and buy. In those days you had the, it was like a credit card and you had to stick a credit card in the machine. It would punch a hole. When you used up so much time on, on your pre purchased little, little punch hole card on the Telstra phone booth and had to make that phone call and do you have Danielle's number? I don't. They're supposed to be here to pick me up, but I've only got your number and he's like, I'm in the middle of a photo job, I can't come and get you. I'll have to, I'll have to call around. [01:06:13] Speaker B: Sorry mate. Sorry mate, I'm. There's a kangaroo here, I've got to go crack. [01:06:18] Speaker C: Yeah, well that's, that's actually, that's kiwi, but yeah, so, yeah, so that was a very big introduction to being. I don't want to say stranded, but I was like, oh, nowhere to go. You know, I didn't even, I don't even think I even contemplated getting a cab. [01:06:41] Speaker B: Did. Why didn't you just jump on the train and get. Oh, hang on, which, which city did you land in? [01:06:46] Speaker C: Melbourne. Yeah. [01:06:47] Speaker B: Why didn't you Just jump on the train and catch the train from the airport into the city. Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. [01:06:53] Speaker C: There you go. Boom. [01:06:54] Speaker A: It's like. It's a good. [01:06:56] Speaker B: Can't help myself. [01:06:57] Speaker A: The ongoing Melbourne Department barkle joke, for those of you that aren't aware. Train from the airport to our Maz. [01:07:05] Speaker B: No way to get from the airport to the city [01:07:10] Speaker C: now. But yeah, but anyway. Yeah, so look, I just. That was my introduction and then it kind of just went from there. You know, I was immersed into, you know, teaching photography at rmit and I introduced Australia's first digital photography subject. And believe it or not, I have that camera here. [01:07:37] Speaker B: So the first course, the first subject. Sorry, the first subject for digital cameras. You. You had to come up like. So who come up with the curriculum and stuff like that? Like who, who, who designed that course? [01:07:48] Speaker A: You did. [01:07:48] Speaker C: I did. [01:07:50] Speaker A: Wow. [01:07:52] Speaker C: I worked with some of the other. The course head and we worked out what to do, but then we had to find a digital camera. [01:08:02] Speaker B: We know how to teach it, we just haven't got one. [01:08:05] Speaker C: We got to get a digital camera. So that's when I sought. I went out to all sorts of suppliers and I got. Got to know Rob Ghetto from KL Australia and he became the main importer for one of the. The cameras, which is a camera that I ended up. This is one of the. This is one of the cameras that I used when I was photographing food photography in Seattle. And it had a RGB wheel on the front of the A lens. So it would take three photos. And that's the. That's the camera. What? [01:08:51] Speaker B: That's not a camera. [01:08:53] Speaker A: So is that the sensor back? [01:08:55] Speaker B: That's a black box out of a plane. [01:08:58] Speaker C: Sensor back. [01:09:00] Speaker A: Wow. What sort of port has that got? [01:09:04] Speaker C: It was a scuzzy serial port. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a 6x6. It sat on the back of 4x5 camera that was still obsessed with 4x5 cameras. When you want to really shoot in those days, proper photography, I always said you should use the 4 by 5 inch camera. You could fit. You'd probably fit that on a. On a pro, you know, say you wouldn't be able to fit that on a spot or anything like that. But yeah. So anyway, so that's. That was the dawn of teaching digital photography. [01:09:39] Speaker A: Wow. And was that course you guys. [01:09:42] Speaker B: Sorry. Go Greg. [01:09:43] Speaker A: So excited. Was digital photography education already underway in the States at that point? Are we late to the game or. [01:09:51] Speaker C: You know, to be honest, I wouldn't know. You know, I didn't really Pay too much attention to it. I just was just hyper focused. I was obsessed with digital because of this camera and shooting digitally. I loved working with Photoshop and how you could, you know, not necessarily manipulate your digital photograph, but you can create stuff and take it straight from. From camera to the computer and. Yeah, so I just wanted. I wanted to push the boundaries. I guess that's kind of what taught me, you know, with all the stuff with my whole life is just constantly pushing the boundaries and evolving as a photographer. Yep. I just thought it was fun, cool and different and. [01:10:41] Speaker B: Was that first course. [01:10:43] Speaker A: Sorry, Justin, you go. [01:10:44] Speaker B: I just. I just really want to find out with that first course, was it popular? Like, were there. Was it full? Were people desperate to learn digital or did it take a little bit to get the ball rolling? [01:10:55] Speaker C: No, I think I pretty much had. Look, you really text my memory. I'm getting old. I think I had probably half a dozen or so students in that subject. Yeah, Y. [01:11:11] Speaker B: So it wasn't necessarily like people were desperate to learn about this tech straight away because it. Because we always hear the stories about how, you know, some people are. The. Were early adopters straight onto it sounds like, like you were. But then there were other people, particularly like photojournalists and stuff like that. There are always some that were like, you know, I'm not. I'm not changing. It doesn't look as good. I don't want to change the way that I do things and stuff like that. And it'd be interesting to know. Yeah. What was the shift student sort of population like? Were they keen or were they like, no, my heroes all shoot film. I don't want to learn this stuff. I want to be in the dark room or. [01:11:50] Speaker C: Oh, they were certainly keen. They were certainly keen because I saw the commercial, the. The commercial side of shooting digitally and, and, and, yeah, and. And that sort of stuff because, I mean, you couldn't. You couldn't shoot anything moving because, you know, if a fly flew into the frame, you'd have a red, green, blue fly. I've seen it. I've seen it. You know, you get the one photograph, but you get, you know, three flies in there that are different colors. I think like I said, I mean, rmit, even as a course back then was. It was a small cohort of students. Anyway. Yeah, so. [01:12:28] Speaker A: So, yeah, amazing. I just want to take a brief [01:12:32] Speaker C: intermission out real quick. [01:12:34] Speaker A: Yes, of course. [01:12:36] Speaker C: Jump out for a sec. [01:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah, please. [01:12:38] Speaker B: We'll do an ad read. [01:12:40] Speaker A: Just. I wanted to. I just want to show a little community conversation that's going on. I hope the lads don't mind, but this is part of the reason why we go live is that people in the chat can engage with us, they can engage with our guests, but they can also engage with each other and create connection and have conversations. It's beautiful to watch. And there's a, there's a, there's a conversation going on right now between Dennis Smith, our good friend Dennis Smith from South Australia and Australia, and David Mascaro. And he's kind of the starting point. Dennis has a job coming up where he's shooting in California in a couple of months. And the guy says, wait till the ladies hear your accent. Watch out. Dennis doesn't have an accent. It's very neutral. And then David Mascara wanted to know where, where, where in California Dennis is going to be shooting. Napa Valley, then across to Colorado, probably transfer through San Fran or LA, I think. And David's 35 minutes from, from Napa. And [01:13:42] Speaker B: gosh, what a lovely place to live, 35 minutes from that Napa Valley. Beautiful wine area and stuff. Yeah, yeah. [01:13:49] Speaker A: No, says Dennis. When the dates are locked in, I'll let you know. I'll be out, like, painting a bit. And David would be keen to meet up, which is amazing. And they've gone on to talk about locations and, and things like that. So, yeah, it's just heartwarming. It's a beautiful little story that's happening on the sidelines, which is great. While we're, we're chatting to Craig Wickgen, [01:14:13] Speaker B: Dennis says Camera Life brings the world together. Well, it does. [01:14:18] Speaker A: If we look out for each other, we all do better. That's right. I think that's a good way to live, especially in this climate. We won't go into politics, though. Definitely not. [01:14:29] Speaker B: It's a different show. [01:14:30] Speaker A: It's a very different show. [01:14:31] Speaker B: We're going to call it the Camera Life. The Camera. No, I don't know. I'll think of something funny. [01:14:37] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll make a T shirt. But. But this is a perfect opportunity to remind everyone that you are watching the Camera Life podcast. We go live twice a week, every week. And this is a special public holiday, like Christmas, but we interview every Thursday morning at 9am Australian Eastern Standard or daylight time. Melbourne time is the easiest way to find us. And we interview an amazing photographer, a guest just like Craig and just like the amazing guests we've had in our, in our presence over the past, what, two years? We've, we've been running a little over two years. [01:15:11] Speaker C: That is Fabulous, guys. [01:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah, we love. [01:15:14] Speaker C: Thanks. [01:15:14] Speaker A: And then every Monday evening we go live with the Camera Life podcast, random photography show where we talk about the news, industry news, we check out some social media content that's caught our eye. We might celebrate some of our friends work or videos that they've put up on YouTube. But we also do a segment called your images where you can send images into justinuckystraps.com with a little story and maybe some of your camera settings. And we'll bring that image up on a Monday evening and we'll talk to it and we'll celebrate your creativity. So make sure that you tune in. And the best way to tune is to subscribe. Tickle the bell icon and set it to always. And that way you'll get a notification of every upcoming episode of the Camera Life podcast in your time zone so you know exactly when to be ready. Get a bevy in hand and sit back and listen to the chat about photography. Let's get back to our guest. [01:16:11] Speaker C: So [01:16:13] Speaker A: where were we? We were talking about, we were talking about what's going on with Dennis and David, which is lovely, but you're in Australia, you're teaching a brand new subject in digital photography, the first in the country. What was that like for you? Was there a lot of pressure, was there? How did you gain resources to build that course out? [01:16:37] Speaker C: I just gained resources just based on my experience and just with experience in commercial photography, all facets of photography. I, I just didn't, you know, I didn't even give it that much of a thought. I just, it, you know, looking back is probably more exciting than when I was in that, in that moment because it was, look, I was still living life, I was still going out, partying, you know, the streets of Melbourne and living my best life and teaching was just, it was a job and it was, I was enjoying coming up with new things. The Internet was in its absolute infancy and, you know, being able to explore what other photographers were doing, being able to, looking like. This is hindsight, this is looking back in, you know, working with suppliers, getting to know people within the industry, not just me, teaching. But, you know, that's just, I don't know, looking back is probably more exciting than when I was actually in the moment because in the moment I was, I was a 26, 27 year old who just, you know, enjoyed life and just was having fun going on. [01:18:00] Speaker A: It wasn't just work, it was lots [01:18:02] Speaker C: going on for you. [01:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker B: Was all your effort in photography at that point because you were spending so Much time partying, obviously. Was all your effort in photography going towards teaching or were you actually looking to do work photographs geographically on the side of that job in Melbourne or. At what point did that become a thing? [01:18:23] Speaker C: Look, the teaching was just a means to. I did enjoy, you know, introducing, you know, that aspect of photography. And I was, you know, I, I learned when I was in Seattle, I learned how to make websites and web pages. So I, you know, was teaching students how to make their own web pages to market themselves and advertise and use, you know, this new tool called the World Wide web on, on, on advertising yourself and getting your, your getting your word out, which was your photography out into the, into the real world and having you that as a speaking aspect of who you are again. I was just living my best dream, but I think it, I wanted more. I knew teaching wasn't going to be my at the time, wasn't going to be my career. I wanted the, the studio, I wanted the commercial photography life. And it kind of wasn't really happening for me. And I was only at RMIT for three years. I ended up leaving. So I was there for two years on a scholarship and then the third year I was paid as a, as a teacher. And then the money dried up and so I had to find a new direction. So that new direction, you know, I found a job working at Monash Uni doing web development of all things. But I was also shooting for myself. I was working with some other photographers. I had this. At the time I was getting married and my wife and I got married and I watched how my, my wedding was photographed. And I'm like, wedding photography has changed. Because in the early days of me doing wedding photography, I was shooting on Hasselblad. You know, everything was on a tripod. You get 12 photographs to a roll. Who would have thought you would be shooting a wedding on 35 millimeter film? So I'm sitting there thinking, oh, I started tapping into my photojournalism side that I really liked when I was, you know, an early teenager. So then I started photographing weddings. And then that's kind of what led me into opening up my own photography business in 2000 and 2000. And yeah, didn't look back. So I did. I still worked at Monash and then I started running a photography department at Monash after some staffing changes. But anyway, that's, that's a long story. But I just want to get, I think into the real juicy stuff that really probably kind of defines who I am today, is working in my own business, working for myself, building this studio space that we're in here at the moment, running my business out of this 6 meter by 6 meter shed. And it, you know, it looks like you walk in the door, it looks like you're walking into your lounge room. So I finally was kind of getting to where I wanted to be to own my own photography business. And it's taken me a long journey to get there but it was coming at a toll because you were, I was, you know, chasing the money and the money wasn't coming and I was working really, really hard at, you know, just wanting to run my own photography business. And I got to a point that was just a couple of years. I like this is really great. I bought a car, I'm comfortable, I've got enough work on the books. And then the, the GFC hit and, and that was a game changer for me because I, I collapsed mentally. Yeah because I was trying to, [01:22:51] Speaker A: I [01:22:52] Speaker C: was paying off bills off the credit card, I was paying the mortgage on off the credit card. Then when the money came in I would pay off the credit card and then there was no money. Then I would paying the mortgage on the credit card and then the money came in, then I was paying the credit card. So I was always robbing from Peter to pay Paul. That kind of saying and it just, it took a massive toll. And in that time frame, you know, we had my wife and I had two children and just wasn't mentally I was really struggling and I've always been a proponent for looking after my mental well being. You know, even as early teenage, teenage years I never stopped from speaking to somebody about my own self confidence. So you know, at 16, even 15 years old probably I was going to counselors just working on my self confidence. And I still do it today. I still go and I still meet with somebody, we talk to things over, we give she or he or whoever my, my person is coming with ideas and tools to work with. But you know, at that time it's when you get to that point it can become a very lonely space. But I found photography was where I could get myself out of that lonely space because got me out of my, out of my head and got me into the world. So when the GFC hit I needed to find other, I needed to find other things that soothed my soul. And you saw and you heard me talking about passionately about all these computational books and the photography and creating light and I was just, I was in my element because I was creating stuff for Me, when I was shooting weddings. Yeah, look, I was creating and getting crafty and for people and I was trying to excite myself with coming up with cool photography for my. For my wedding clients. But it was coming at a cost because I was chasing the money. [01:25:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:14] Speaker C: You know they say money's the root of all evil, right? It is, but it's also a source to a means. But we have to have money to. To exist. So I came up with an idea. Well, I came up with a couple ideas before I came up with this one, the final idea. And it just. It just went off from there. So I photographed my. My wife said, can you photograph my dad in his shed? Because I really want. I want something to remember my dad for who I know him for, what I've grown up with and knowing what he does. And I'm like, yeah, okay. So I did that and I'm like, I have an idea. I had a eureka moment and I said, I had so much fun photographing my father in law because I was crafting an image of what I wanted. I lit it how I wanted it. I communicated with my subject, the camera, and the photography was just. It sat there. But I spent more time talking to my. Getting to know my father in law as well, even though we've been married for 10 years, because I started the book project in 2010. It was about the communication that I had with my sitter, my. My subject, and I was able to communicate, and he communicated with me and opened up on a certain level and. And he's like, well, how do you want me to pose? It's. It's like, oh, you're doing great right there. Boom. Tick, done. The photo was in the bag, but it was about the communication. And that's the more I started then photographing these men in their sheds. And I developed a project plan, and I never knew what the title of the book was going to be until the. Until the book practically came out. But for me to connect with people on a different level but use my photography to capture that connection was. Because the art of communication with photography can be lost because people can be too. Too much, you know, behind the camera like this and not like I'm talking to you and everybody who is in. In the room listening. So I got people to talk about their favorite tool and tell me more about what they did in their shed. What does it mean to them? So then the project took a life of its own because I was finding more of my own inner peace, that photography is just a tool, but communication is probably almost the bigger of all the tools. And hearing these guys, I don't want to be in the photo. I just want, I just want my shed in the shot. Well that's fine. We'll get there. We'll eventually get there. And, and by the end of the, the end of an hour or two hour or three hour conversation, they'd be like, how do you want me to pose? Just like that. [01:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:40] Speaker C: You know, they go from not wanting to be in the photo to how do you want me to pose? Where do you want me to stand? Because when you, you show genuine interest in somebody who's in front of your camera. In the person. Not just, just the photograph, but in the person. So my, so that, that's what ended up with my Men in Sheds book. So it was that. Oh, you want a bigger. [01:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah, let's make it a bit bigger. Look at that awesome cover. [01:29:16] Speaker C: So, you know, the, the book wasn't just also about portraits. It was also telling the story about, you know, the incidentals of the shed, the gentleman himself. But you know, when. With me recording their story so they've got the story along with their. [01:29:39] Speaker B: Whoa. [01:29:39] Speaker C: Their photograph. I wanted. When you, when you open up the book and you read the story, it's like the guy who's, you're looking at the guy and he's actually telling his story to you. And that's, you know, the more people were saying that my shed was my. Is where I get out of my head and I get into. With my hands. And that just led me onto that whole journey of the importance of getting out of here and getting. Because the world in front of you is what's real. That's not real. That is just your thoughts. That's your imagination. Your brain is the greatest storyteller. Stop listening to the stories. Get, get. You know, you can listen to the stories but say, oh, that's just a story. That's just, it's just your brain telling you what it thinks it wants to tell you. But the real part is getting out there and like I'm having a real conversation with you guys and, and I get out there with my camera and I get to engage with the world that's in front of me and capture it how I see it. Yeah. But I'm not in here because I'm so engaged with what's. What's out in front of me and that's kind of where that shed book. [01:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So Men in their Sheds. You received a lot of attention when the book came out. Over time, news Outlets picked it up, it was talked about, you've done other interviews about the book for you was given the, you know, we hit the global financial crisis, work started to dry up, the bills were chasing you, and this project came about. Would you define the project, the book and getting it done, or even just the experience of doing it? Was that a catalyst to reinvent yourself as a photographer, to take your, you know, your work to the next level? [01:31:39] Speaker C: It was, look, it really was. The book took on a life of its own because initially I was looking at selling these portraits, you know, to the families that, that I was photographing. And then in 2000, December of 2011, about two days from my two, two, two days before my birthday, I went and had a mental health assessment because I just wasn't just my life felt like it was falling apart. And through that mental health assessment, I found out that I had chronic lymphatic leukemia. And when you hear that, obviously everybody, you probably are like, you hear that? And of course I did as well. I thought my life was over. I'm like, mind blown. I mean, I've been trying to chase what I, my, my dream and now my dream has just literally evaporated over an eye. And I, I could have looked the way I kind of, I perceive it is I could have sat in the corner, rock like a baby, sucked on my thumb and woe is me kind of thing. And that's what gave more purpose to my men in Sheds book. Instead of chasing the money, I did it purely out of the purely pure sense of the love of photography and everything that every success that came out of this book, being on a TV show, being on the Channel 10's the Project, you know, the list goes on. I never envisioned that. I never, I never wanted that. I never, I never expected the book. I wanted the book to go global. I wanted to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. But I just, I let it just do for me, not anybody else. [01:33:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:46] Speaker C: So I chased what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it, with who I wanted to do it, and for the love of photography, for me. And it just happened. Everything came with it. So once the book was published, it just, just went off. So I just, you know, I went, I had Jeff Kennett, who was the premier for Victoria, he started Beyond Blue. I had some great conversations with Jeff about Beyond Blue. I became a Beyond Blue ambassador just to talk about, just get to open that conversation and get men to, to communicate. And you know, at the time of the book publishing, there was more men Shooting sheds. You know, men's. The men's shed organization. There's more men's sheds than there were McDonald's. So, you know, I think that's really poignant that, you know, it's an opportunity for men to go out in their shed with a bunch of other blokes and open up that conversation. They like working with wood, metal or whatever. My. My working with my hands was with photography and crafting light. [01:34:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:57] Speaker C: So I. That's kind of how I. That, you know, my men's shed book was my. My men's shed. [01:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I just got goosebumps everywhere. Even my kneecaps. I've never had them in my kneecaps before, but somehow that happened. Yeah. Craig, as. As history has proven, you know, people's fortunes change over time. The book itself obviously propelled you forward and gave you purpose and focus, if you'll pardon the pun. Eventually, things obviously improved because not so long ago, you moved towards taking over John Travers Photography. [01:35:37] Speaker C: Yeah, well, look, tell us a little about that experience. [01:35:39] Speaker A: And what is John. What does John Travers Photography do? [01:35:42] Speaker C: John Travers Photography is an event photography company that photographs debutante balls. High school formals, police academy graduations. What else? Well, I brought in my commercial work, so I don't now do commercial work. And that's. Yeah, that's. I've been working. I was working for Ian, who owned John Travers. He. He owned On John Travers for 40 years. And I've been working for Ian as a freelancer since 2006. So that's before I even started the Men Shed book. [01:36:24] Speaker B: I was gonna say. So before all of this, you were. You were doing freelance stuff whilst also weddings or your own things as well, [01:36:34] Speaker C: portraits, you know, in 2000, like I said, 2011, when I had that diagnosed. By the way, I just want to clarify. I'm fine. So, obviously, you know, 15 years later, I'm. I'm still kicking along. I just go see a specialist every year and get my bloods monitored, and so I'm fine. But I. I killed the business and I went back into teaching, so. And then I didn't have to worry about chasing the money. I can just focus on me, my family. I could focus on book. I can freelance for other photographers. I can just enjoy. Why I love photography, which was just creating, crafting an image and not worrying about chasing the money, you know? So John Travers and buying John Travers Photography was certainly something I never imagined. It was offered to me by Ian 3 years ago. I turned. I turned it down. I just didn't think it was the direction that I wanted to go in. I was, you know, I was really involving myself in my teaching. I was, you know, I run now Photography Walks for well Being, which is a monthly photography walks that I run first Friday of every month. So Photography Walks for well Being on Facebook. You can look it up, you can join it if you want to come along. It's Tomorrow morning at 9am on the steps of Parliament House. But again, it was, I am doing that my Photography walks. Your well being is for me. I'm going to be selfish. It's for me, but it's not for me because everybody else gets to come along and join on a little bit of an adventure for an hour because they don't know what they're going to photograph until I show up at 9 o' clock and say the topic that we're going to shoot. So I don't even know what we're going to shoot tomorrow. I'll find, I'll just figure something out then. I'll figure it out just between now and then and just come up with an idea because anything and everything could be photographed. But everybody photographs things differently. So, yeah. So then John Travers, I turned it down. And then I was on a job. Three, 20. Yeah, took it over in 24. So two, two years ago now. So February two years ago, I was on a job and Ian was talking about his physical health and putting the business up for up on a, you know, to, to sell online to a business broker that I was just trying to come up with. And I'm like, I just looked at, I just sat there and I'm like, I want to swear, but I'm not going to say, what the freaking hell am I thinking? And I just turned to him at the job and I said, ian, I'll buy your business. I thought it was going to have a heart attack right then and there. I kid you not. [01:39:59] Speaker B: So how long after you had originally turned it down was this roughly like, how? [01:40:04] Speaker C: So I turned it down in September of 23 and then by February of 24, without even discussing it with my wife, I said, I'm going to buy a business. [01:40:16] Speaker B: Brave move. [01:40:17] Speaker A: Very brave move. [01:40:18] Speaker B: Bold move. [01:40:20] Speaker C: So then, yeah, when home, I said, joe, I've decided we're going to buy the business. I just wasn't having any more fun at teaching either. So that was probably another catalyst. Just, I just wasn't having fun teaching. And I'm like, you know what? You only get one go at, at your life and you only got one go at Any opportunities, I'm not going to let this opportunity go to waste. So it went on from there. Got a business loan, bought, bought John Travers in. So we took it, I took it over in, in July of 24 and then a year ago I have a habit of unfortunately getting sick. So I got really, really sick just over a year ago and I ended up with in my small intestines. It's small intestinal bowel cancer. And I didn't know at the time that that's what it was because I had a bowel obstruction. So in my small intestines just after my stomach, stomach died. It's a sick little boy. Had I not, I would have, as the doctor said, I would have died from the obstruction within hours of them not going in and cutting me open. The cancer wouldn't have killed me because it was such a slow. It's called neuroendocrine bowel cancer. And it took them nine days to figure out that that's what I had. But I was in hospital for, yeah, nearly 10 days with a tube. I was, I lost so much weight. But yeah, you know what, I'm here to tell a story. And then I had, I had to buy a building, didn't I? So I went and bought a building right after I got out of hospital and Ian wanted to sell the building that I was renting from him. So, so I went and bought a building. So now I, we own a building. We own John Travers Photography. And there's some other opportunities in the wings at the moment which I can't really talk about at the moment. But watch this space. [01:42:37] Speaker B: Watch this space. Wow. It's. You've certainly hit the ground running and then to have health issues thrown into what basically the first. Within the first year of taking over. Yeah, that's, that's intense. Obviously to be able to get through that, you must have had a good team around you with. [01:42:58] Speaker C: I have a great team. I have a great staff. There's three full time staff that, that work with me in the studio. I've got a great, I've got a beautiful family that surround me. I've got great friends like you two, you know, Bruce, Moyle, Dennis, you know, I've got great, got a great community around us as photographers and through all this, like I said, my support was my photography, my walks of well being. And I've been doing walks of well being now since October 2019 and I've only missed two because of one, well, illness and believe it or not, had an Elton John concert to go To. [01:43:52] Speaker B: Well, that's a, that's a fair excuse. That's a fair excuse. You don't, you don't get to go to see Elton John every day. [01:43:58] Speaker C: No, no. So, you know, I do. I've got an amazing team behind me, and if it wasn't for the team behind me, you know, John Travers wouldn't happen. You know, it just, it's, it's fun. I, I wake up every morning, I go to the gym. I'm. I've been going to the gym now religiously for four years. Between three and four days a week. I can lift those camera bags. I can lift those camera, the stand bags without even thinking twice. Twice. I can get down on the ground. I think, well, my knees aren't the greatest still, but, you know, just keeping a fit body keeps, helps me keep a fit mind. You know, Dennis is in them, is in the mental space as well, and he knows exactly what I'm talking about. So when I keep a fit body, I can keep a fit mind. When I can keep a fit mind, I can keep a fit body. And my photography is what I do. I live and breathe it and I have fun with it. Because if you're not having fun with it, then just find something else. [01:45:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because it comes back to what you said earlier, that you only get one shot. As far as we know, we only get one shot at this life. And, you know, fortune favors the bold. Might also be a nice takeaway from hearing your story, Craig. [01:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah, Take the opportunities. It just, I'm not, I'm not shy anymore about taking risks, calculated risks. If you asked my, my former self, like, is in my 20 or 30 something. I was just, no way I'd be doing. No way I'm not going to buy a business. No way I'm not going to spend, you know, that kind of money. Yeah, not a chance. But, you know, I'm just having fun with every day. Getting up, having a cup of coffee with my wife in the morning, opening up the laptop and going, do I really want to look at today's news? Not really. I'll close that laptop, I'll put that away. It's too depressing out there. So I'm going to go to the gym, I'm going to work out my, my body to work out up my mind. And then I'm gonna go to work and enjoy the people that surround me, enjoy the work that we, we do for others. And I'm 56 years old and I am now living what I've dreamt when I was a teenager. Yeah, that's a nice, that's what I want. [01:46:45] Speaker B: Goosebumps. [01:46:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that is so cool. It's, it's proof that, that life's happening right now. You know, it doesn't matter what age you are or whatever. Like today is the day that you can make whatever change you want. You can go after whatever goal you want, whatever dream you might have, be open to opportunities. It's. Yeah, I freaking love that. I have lots of follow up questions about everything you've been talking about. Yeah, I'm gonna start with, let's start with, with the gym because we were talking about that just before the show. You went to the gym this morning, but you, so you started going to the gym in your early 50s. What was, what was that like? Was that daunting? And, and how did you, how did you navigate that? Being like, all right, I gotta, I'm gonna go and do this. It's going to be good for my body, which will be good for my mind and vice versa. How did you get started? [01:47:41] Speaker C: Look, I, I had some friends going to the gym and you know, they, I was watching their, their body transformations and I'm like, you know, I'm really getting tired when I'm getting off the ground. It's, it's, it's not easy getting off the knees. I'm. The, the bags are that we're carrying or aren't light and I just kind of, I needed, I needed to do something with, for me, I needed to invest. This is how I looked at it. I needed to invest into myself. You know, when you, when you're doing a, you know, your mental walks of well being or you're going to a counselor or whatever, you're investing in you because you're investing in your own mind and, and you're just using somebody's suggestions of, you know, this is just chitter chatter and you're investing in yourself. So I, I did hire a personal trainer. I figured, you know what, I want to do it right. I want to be able to use the machines and the weights. I know how to use weights. We use machines, we know how to do that. But I want to do it properly and I wanted to, I wanted to hold myself accountable and that's why I hired a personal trainer. And you know, up until even, you know, October, November, I was still having a personal trainer. I've done, you know, I've had two personal trainers, but I, I had somebody also hold me accountable for having to show up at my personal Training session and then looking at the progress. Progress when going to the gym. Just like working on your mind isn't an instant fix, it takes time. It takes the conversation, it takes the physical. Working out at the gym, it takes. The more times you go, the easier it is. Yeah, I'm sore today. I am sore in the shoulders because today was back and shoulders. But no pain, no gain, they say, right? Yeah, but you know, you're working on your mind. It's the same thing. Working on your body. You're investing in your, in yourself. So you're investing in your mind, making your healthy mind. When with a healthy mind, you got a healthy family around you as well, with a happy wife, happy life as well. And I'm making myself happy because the only person that's gonna ever make you happy is you. Nobody else. Yeah, it's only you. You have your own. We all have our own demons. It's getting. Let it go. Let go of the demons. Let go of. Let go of them. They're not. Don't let it hold you back. And that's like working at a gym. Don't let being sore and you go home. I can't lift anymore. So sore. I can't get out of bed. I'm obsessed with getting out of bed at 6am and I'm at the gym by quarter to seven because I want, I want to do it, I want to get it done. I want to start the day off right. I'm not the 5 o'clock afternoon gym session. 5 o' clock is when I go home and have dinner. [01:51:05] Speaker B: Me neither. It's, it's, it's, it's a really easy time of the day to, for something to come up at work, for you to feel tired and you just. I just can't do it, you know, like that afternoon is, it's tough. I know people that do it and it's not something I've ever been able to do either. It's, it's much easier to get it out of the way, start, start the day off right. You know, for me, it's usually the hardest thing that I'll do that day. It's pretty much always actually the hardest thing I do that day. This morning's was no different. Probably the worst one I've done for a while and. But it's, it's just. Yeah, it's, it's so easy at 5 o' clock to be like, oh, I just don't have time. I don't, you know, whatever. Yeah, it's interesting. [01:51:48] Speaker C: Yep. And you know, my gym is, you know, I see Dennis is the mindfulness. You know, my gym is my mindfulness. I can, you know, I'm working, I'm not even thinking because you're working on your body, you're working on muscle. Muscles. You're, you're, you're not in here. Yeah, I'm listening to the music. I'm watching other people working out and I'm, but you're working through your own struggle with, can I lift that? That. Can I do one more? Can I do, you know, one more curl? What can I do? Can I do one more? It's like going out. You know, photography is mindfulness, mindfulness for the mind. Because, you know, it's in that moment you are engaging the world in front of you. Like you're engaging the world weights the world in front of you and you're out there photographing the topic. Let's say I chose like my favorite topic I had so much fun doing. I haven't done it again was the dog's point of view. Like we said with Walter Reese, photographing from Ariel, from up above. Photographing from a dog's point of view. And you know, I have quite a few old fellows and I'm like, well, don't necessarily get down, just hold the camera down that nice and low and yeah, you know, mindfulness and you're connecting with others that are walking with you and you're sharing. Oh, look at this. Oh, there. I didn't, I didn't see that. You were standing right next to me. I didn't see that. Because we see the world differently and we're not living through each other's eyes. You're only living through your own eyes. So that topic of an is can be interpreted so, so many different ways. A dog's point of view. And you know, whether it's abstraction or, you know, quarter second exposures or pinhole photography, you, you're out of your brain, you're out of your head and you're actually engaging the world in front of you and you're thinking, thinking. You're using your brain as a muscle, as a tool to come up with a photograph and you do. Your camera is just the vehicle. So whether you're using this little thing or you're going out and photographing with a 1957 Agfabili camera, you're the person behind the lens. You're the person, you're the imaginator. Imagine you're using your imagination to create and craft the image. That's what's so special about, about being mindful is using things around in the tangible world to get yourself out of your head and engage with the rest of what's in front of you. [01:54:28] Speaker A: Yep, very well said. I love that comment here from Bruce as well. [01:54:33] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I saw. All right, I'll, I'll read that because I obviously a lot of the time when I say see wonderful images like, like this, the art that Bruce creates, but like just tons of the images that come in from our viewers but also especially the guests that we have on that have really creative brains and, and vision for what they create. And I often look at the images and think, I just, I, I would never see that I could, you know, like it, it doesn't, my brain doesn't work like that. So Bruce is saying, I regularly say that my brain doesn't work like that when looking at other photos. And what Craig is saying is just trying different things helps to think like that, like exercising that muscle of let's just try a completely different perspective, a different technique, a different thought process and just give it a go. [01:55:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's, it is a compelling argument. Whenever I've run photo walks often, like Craig does, I think when the last walk, for well being I went on with you, Craig, I think it was, can't remember what the topic was now. Was it duplication, repetition? You always said a, you know, often just a single word for your photo walks. And, and I love that because it really makes people understand what their interpretation of repetitions or, you know, when I've run walks, I'll say, well just look for everything that's blue, you know, and all of a sudden they're not looking at the greater picture. They're looking for detail. They're looking for, you know, color value in the scene in front. So it really does take people out of their heads a little bit. And I love that about when we, when we've done your walks, just how easy it is. And the last one, you know, you and I were just strolling around Melbourne outside Flinders street and we were both completely occupied with the process of looking for repetition and not, not even necessarily engaging with each other because we were, I mean, we would from time to time, but we're so very mindful of, of the task of the day. You know, I thought it was great. I, I am very conscious of time. It is, it's almost 11 o' clock and we don't want to take up too much every day. But let's talk about what, what it is that you're working on at the moment and what you see ahead for you in the future as a, as a visual creative. [01:57:02] Speaker C: Look, I'm looking at, I'm looking at creating a website for my photography walks well being. I'm looking at taking it to another level. My walks for well being. Idea or project if you like. It's kind of like my Men Shed book. I'm looking at turning my. A lot of my photography over since 2019 into a book but taking it to other places. So there's now photography walks. I know Bruce has started up a little bit down in Tasmania. There is a. Another group that started up in Phillip Island. There was a group that started in Warnable. I got a text message from somebody in South Australia who went on the Warnable saying, can I start this up in South Australia? And I'm like, by all means, start it up in South Australia. I got an email a couple of months ago from K. Davis over in New Zealand asking if she can start a walks of well being up in New Zealand. And I'm like, absolutely, yeah. So it got me really thinking and I've been looking and researching how I think it's called Parkrun started. And I'm gonna try to go on that same avenue that I'm gonna get a website. I've kind of been designing a logo for Photography walks for well being. Yeah. So that's kind of, that's one of my little projects I did start. I keep talking about it. I did start Men in their collectibles. So another Men's Shed book. [01:59:04] Speaker A: I'll put my hand up for that. [01:59:07] Speaker C: And photographing men in their collections. I. I got a. I got about a dozen images in and covered, hit and dare I say, took the window out of my sails because it couldn't go anywhere, couldn't do anything. Lost my motivation for, for that, because of that. But that's when I started my walks for well being. And mind you, my walks were well being. I ran it all through Covid, but I ran it every Friday and I would do a Facebook live and I would give everybody a topic. So I got people out of, you know, being boarded up in their home, got them out at least in their backyard and in their neighborhood to photograph and people would share that. So, you know, everything can be photographed, but it can be photographed differently by you. And you know what always resonates with me is think go back when Apple rediscovered themselves as a company and their advertising campaign was think different. Yeah. So photographically is kind of what Bruce is saying is think different. You know, and when you're coming up with. When I come up with an idea is think different. So that's what I'm thinking is thinking different of this project. So that's kind of where I'm heading with the idea with that I'm trying to expand John Travers and my, and my company, we're doing quite a few advertising campaigns at the moment trying to grow that and getting more sports photography. So we, we do a lot of. We, we do a few sports teams and we photograph kids and we turn them into their basketball cards. So baseball, basketball, you know, sporting cards. So collectible cards. So we're in the throws of doing one of the local basketball teams. We just photographed 500 and something kids on Sunday and, and now we're turning all them into, into basketball cards. So it's very, very profitable to say the least and so much fun. [02:01:21] Speaker B: So physical they, they will end up with a physical card or they just get a digital file of, of what that would look like. [02:01:27] Speaker C: They can buy. What the pre purchase is is a package. So the package, if they buy say the $62 pack they get a series of card, card like sized cards and then they get 5 by 7 and 8 by 10 and then the team photo and then we've got other packages that can. I think a lot of people usually just keep it for themselves rather than trading it amongst their friends. But yeah, oh yeah, that's sort of the idea. That's sort of what we're. We've been doing that for since we've been doing the one. This one team since 2010 and sorry, 2016. I got to get my head out of the, out of the book. 2010, 2016. So I've been in this one team for quite some time so I'm trying to expand that part of the business. [02:02:16] Speaker B: That's really cool. Very clever. [02:02:20] Speaker A: Now as we mentioned, I think we mentioned it at the top of the show. We met at BEFOP last year. [02:02:29] Speaker C: Yes. [02:02:30] Speaker A: What has your BEFOP experience been. Been like? And for those that aren't in the know, if you watch this channel regularly, we talk about it all the time. BEFOP is the bright festival of photography. It happens every year around October, November. Justin and Jim and I went last year and Justin and I went the year before. Probably one of the greatest photography festivals I would dare say in the world. It's very unique. What has your experience of BFOP been like for you? [02:03:01] Speaker C: Well, I've been ex. I've been at Beef Bop since Day Dot so I think we're coming out, we're 10 years in October. And my experience is the, the community and the people's willingness to suck you dry for information and, and then feed off of the energy of a photo shoot. Because if you haven't been on a photo shoot for me, I'm like the Energizer bunny or, you know, popcorn in a pot when the pot's about to explode. Because I just, I love to teach people light and how to engage with a person in front of your camera and to get the best possible image that you can get in that short amount of time. But for people to take their photo, walk away. And then when you're walking to your car and the workshops over there and they just want to show you everything they just took from. Even though they're shooting over your shoulder. But, you know, they've just. Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, the community, you know, getting to meet you guys, you know, bringing in a, you know, industry and people together, you know, beef ups, you know, 90 odd, 8%, you know, enthusiasts. But they're enthusiasts for a reason because they just want to learn more. They want to know more about how to use this beast of a camera in their hand. And I've had people in my workshop that only just picked up a camera and how do I change. What are you, what's aperture and shutter speed? What are you, what are you talking about? What's ISO like, whoa. Okay, so you, you, you're teaching to the lowest common denominator. And yeah, it's, it's the best community ever. And I'm meeting people like, I wouldn't have met Dennis Smith if it wasn't for Beef Up, I wouldn't have met you guys. Bruce Moyle always flies in. I pick him up in the morning and we either. I'll pick him up the day before we come up to beef up and we get up at the crack of dawn and head up to Bright and spend, you know, three hours in the car nattering like a couple of old ladies and catching up and yeah, you'll [02:05:46] Speaker B: have to keep an eye on him next time. He said earlier when you were showing all the cool stuff in your office, he said, damn, I should have snooped around Craig's office when I slept on the floor before befob the last couple of years. [02:05:57] Speaker C: Well, Bruce, yeah, in October, we'll make sure what. You can snoop around around my studio all you like. Actually, we probably won't be here because we're moving, so. [02:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:09] Speaker C: But I'll, I'll have another studio space. [02:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah, you'll have a floor at least. [02:06:14] Speaker C: I'll still have a floor for it. [02:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And just to follow up on tie a knot in Bruce's comments, Bruce has said it's the favorite, his favorite time of the year. Hanging with Craig and heading to be also not a bad Airbnb buddy too, so it's lovely. [02:06:28] Speaker B: Thanks. Speaking of cool stuff around a studio, we should quickly cover off gear. What are you shooting with these days, Craig? [02:06:40] Speaker C: So I personally shoot with a Canon R5 and it's probably one of the best cameras I've ever owned and the whole steel. I think I've got 15 odd cameras at the studio. So I got about eight, six, seven, eight kits. [02:07:03] Speaker B: That's a great question. You supply the kit for all of your photographers. They don't bring their own, they don't have to bring their own equipment for the jobs. [02:07:12] Speaker C: All the lighting gear, all the kit. So I've got freelancers that come and shoot for me now rather than me. I shoot for my own. My, my myself as well for the business. So we bring the gear and. Or they come and collect the gear and bring the gear. So it's shoot with all Canon 60s. Every, every system goes out with backup gear. So if a camera drops or they drop a lens, they can pick up the next camera and, and shoot. If they drop that one, well then we're up Schitt's creek. [02:07:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You get one drop per job. [02:07:46] Speaker C: Yeah, one drop. You get one drop and. Yeah, so we, we. I use Ellen Chrome lighting gear and again, we always have spares lying around at the job. Yeah, that's probably the, the simplest. I don't have a lot of gear. I've got, you know, one camera bought. Me personally that, that I bought. I've got one camera, one lens. Yes. When I was shooting weddings, I always had two and I always had, you know, big lens on this camera and a small lens on here. It was, you know, root and toot and kind of thing. [02:08:26] Speaker B: What. All right, so. So do you have a go to lens or focal length that if you're, if, if you're just shooting for yourself? Um, it's just your, like your favorite that you gravitate to. [02:08:42] Speaker C: Um. Look, I love my. It's. Look, it's heavy. Someday I'm gonna get like, I'm gonna be like Greg and I'm gonna get myself some small little compact Fuji camera and then I can just, you know, stick in my pocket and it's gonna give me exactly what I want. I always bring my R5 and my 24 to 70. My 24 to 72.8 is my, is my. I just, that's just what I love using and it just gives me exactly what I, what I want, how I want it. And look, you know, I could go through it where I used to always teach my students. Because I need to buy a lens. I need to buy a lens. Why do you need to buy a lens? Oh, because I just want a lens. I'm like, yeah, but why? Because I want to do this. Okay, well do me a favor. Look at what lens you got. They're usually have a zoom lens. Go and look in lightroom. If you use, you know, and look at the focal length that you shoot most of your photography at, that'll tell you what lens you're going to buy. I heard that once and I'm like, that's actually a really good idea. So I kind of pass that on that little, that little nugget. [02:09:49] Speaker B: Have you ever looked at yours with your, with this 24 to 70 particularly? Have you ever looked at the breakdown of what you shoot? [02:09:57] Speaker C: No, you know what? I look, I have, I'm. I'm probably an all over the shop rounder. Everything. I'm. Every focal length. [02:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:10:07] Speaker C: Even ISO. It doesn't matter what ISO I'm, I'm on. You know I was saying the other night when I was photographing the Aurora. Oh, that was just, that was an experience that I'll never forget. I'll photograph the Aurora from ISO52000 all the way down to ISO800. I just wanted to see different effects that I can get out of the Aurora. [02:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. That's very cool. Get experimental. [02:10:35] Speaker C: Experimental. So look, I have looked at it. I haven't really gone. I think I shoot a lot at the 35 to 24 range. That's pretty. Probably more the. I would say my average is in that range. [02:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I find I often am at the extremes of the focal length of a zoom lens. And I don't know, I think that that speaks to the fact that I do prefer to shoot with primes, but it also speaks to the fact that I'm probably trying not to swap lenses because I'm lazy. So if I'm out on a shoot and I've got a 24 to 70, I'll zoom out to 24 and be like, oh, I just want to get that in the frame. And instead of swapping to my wide, I'll just take a few steps back and then If I want to get closer, I'll zoom into 70 and be like, oh, I'd like it a little bit tighter, but instead of swapping to the 7200, I'll just walk forward a little bit. So I think when I look at my Lightroom catalog, there's just groups of images at the ends of each zoom range. Like tons at 70, tons at 24, you know, like, it's. Yeah. Anyway, I just think that's funny. [02:11:47] Speaker C: You brought up a really great point, too. You'd walk in, like, if you, if you, if, if you don't. If you got a. If you don't have a zoom lens and you want to get closer, just walk in closer. You can use your own feet, you know, walks well being is also. You're using your own feet and you're getting some exercise. And here, you know, having some camaraderie with people who you're walking with, you know. I see Doug Porter has popped in. Doug's been a religious visitor on my walk through well being. Hello, Doug. And you know, Greg, I'm glad you've come out with one. You. You know what the experience is like and. Yeah, but, yeah, to be able to walk in. So having a versatile lens, if you can't walk in. Well, yeah, all right, I can't walk there. I'll just zoom it to 70. [02:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Glenn. Glenn Lavender Creative Photo Workshop is in the, in the chat. He's like the extreme version of me. I think he only shoots at 15 or 200. Anywhere in between is just boring, is the word on the street. [02:12:49] Speaker C: Good day, Glenn. How are you, mate? [02:12:51] Speaker A: Just want to say, if anyone hasn't checked out Glenn's socials for his images, he's in India with. On a tour of. I'm not sure if he's finished. [02:12:58] Speaker B: He's in Bangladesh. [02:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And some of the environmental portraits that are coming out of. Out of Glyn's camera and out of his eye, just absolutely stunning, they are every time he goes away, but, you know, absolutely magical images. And the sort of person who doesn't edit much, you know, he's all about getting it right in camera. So, yeah, please go check out his work. [02:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think, you know, I live very vicariously looking at Glenn's stuff and I love, you know, the photography that he comes up with and again, crafting light and the. And enjoying his. His adventures to Bangladesh and overseas. Look, I want to go one of these days and maybe I might join him on a tour. I don't know. But, you know, it's just this is the beauty of photography and social media nowadays a lot allows you to live vicariously through other people's lenses and other people's lives. And you can get caught up in and saying, oh no, my life is, you know, Glenn gets to do this and Bruce gets to do that and Craig gets to do that. Well, yes, we did to do that because we choose, that's the direction that we choose to go in and that's the advent, our adventure. You write your own adventure by how you want to perceive your photography or go on a Glenn Lavender workshop. Do a workshop with Bruce or do a workshop with me or, or whatever. Go on my photography walks for well being and expand your mind on seeing the world differently. Yep, yep. [02:14:35] Speaker B: Bruce Moyles found a loophole to your way to stop people from buying equipment. He says, but Mr. Whitgen, how can I fill my Lightroom catalog with 600 mil 2.8 images if I don't have one yet? And that's a great point. That's a great point. In which case you should buy that lens, Bruce. So then you can see how many images you take with it when you filter by. [02:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah, hire it. Borrow it off a friend. You know, very similar to you. I often get asked by people, especially in the Fujifilm space who have some magical lenses, by the way, they'll say, you know, what lens should I get neck next. And very similar to you, Craig. My first question is, well, what's wrong with the lens you've got now? Exactly what are you shooting with and how long have you had it and how many shots? Do you know how many shots you've taken with this lens? Do you feel like you've really fully given it an opportunity to prove. Prove itself or not? But yeah. That 600 F2 point, was it a 602.8? [02:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:15:41] Speaker A: Do it. [02:15:41] Speaker B: Gone. [02:15:42] Speaker A: Do it. [02:15:43] Speaker C: Go on, Bruce. You got the budget for it. [02:15:45] Speaker A: We dare you. [02:15:47] Speaker B: I did the school kid voice, Bruce, because I assumed you were also taking the piss with your comment. Otherwise I would have tried to do my Bruce voice, which I don't know. I don't know what that would be. What's a Bruce voice? Not sure. More beardy. [02:16:01] Speaker C: Beauty. [02:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a filter. [02:16:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:16:03] Speaker C: You know, I would always spend a lot of time when I was teaching with students and they're always wanting to buy camera gear and I'm like, why buy camera gear when you don't even know how to use the camera that you got? What I want you to do is learn from what I'M going to teach you over the next six months, and in six months time, ask me that same question. Because you'll know more about photography and then you'll be able to pick up that next camera and know how to use that next camera even better, because you actually know how to use the tool. So, you know, I guess, you know, bringing it full circle, it's like exercising your mind, you know, there's no such thing as a person who is not creative. You, everybody's creative. It's just you're not out there exercising your creativity. And that's through photographic exploration or if it's painting. Anybody can paint a picture, anybody can do drawing. You just got to practice at it. [02:17:11] Speaker A: And no amount of gear is going to make you better at what you do. [02:17:13] Speaker C: No way. No way to come from you. [02:17:16] Speaker A: It helps, you know, and we talked about this on Monday night. I talked about the, this new lens I bought, which was the same focal length as my favorite lens. It's just got a faster aperture and a faster focus speed. But I've used that original 23 mil Fuji lens for, well, since it came out. So it's probably been, you know, six or seven years at least before I decided to upgrade it. Yeah, I think I sidetracked myself just then. [02:17:43] Speaker C: No, that's all right. We always do that. We get sidetracked, don't we? I'm a, a total sidetracker. Almost total go off in tangents. [02:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:17:51] Speaker B: Glenn Lavender says, I dare you. No better justification for buying more gear. And that is a good point. Sometimes, sometimes you should just say that to people when they're like, I'm thinking of getting this lens. Go, yeah, yeah, do it, Daria. And then they're like, oh, it's actually a bit expensive. And you're like, yeah, actually, yeah. [02:18:08] Speaker A: Nev Clark, past guest of the show and often in the chat, he, he, I was talking to him yesterday, a messenger, and he said, oh, I'm looking at this particular camera. I said, just do it. What's stopping you? [02:18:20] Speaker B: Just do it. [02:18:21] Speaker A: You only live once. The world's on fire. [02:18:23] Speaker B: Exactly. [02:18:23] Speaker A: Just go and do it. [02:18:24] Speaker B: Exactly, you know. Yeah. [02:18:26] Speaker A: It's crazy. [02:18:27] Speaker B: Why not? Well, you know what I was, you know what I was looking at? And I, I think I'll. I've got a reply to the guy's message. But, and I might have mentioned this, but still on full for weeks on Facebook Marketplace, There's a Fujifilm GFX100 full spectrum converted camera. So it's like ready to go for infrared and like any sort of. Of those spectrum. Oh, you've just got to buy filters for it. But I did the. I did the maths and I just. I don't know, compared to converting one of my Canons, I've already got tons of lenses for them. All that stuff, sort of stuff. Traveling with an extra camera and an extra gear, it just. I don't know, it doesn't make sense. But it was very tempting because it's. He obviously is having trouble selling it because no one really. I think a lot of people are shy on buying a converted camera. [02:19:20] Speaker A: Well, because it's all been broken, kind of. [02:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:24] Speaker A: Broken from what the designer intended it for, you know. [02:19:27] Speaker B: Exactly. [02:19:27] Speaker A: Someone's got to mess with the inside, so there's always a risk. Fujifilm factory didn't do that. You know, someone had that done. [02:19:37] Speaker B: Nev says he's buying. He's buying a Q3. You talked him into it. [02:19:43] Speaker A: Way to go, Niv. [02:19:45] Speaker B: Really appreciate the encouragement. Life is short and maybe for us older guys, let's just do this. I'm going to drive 400ks and get the Q3. [02:19:52] Speaker A: Nice. [02:19:53] Speaker B: Ah, sorry, Nev. I was hoping that one day I would get a cross across there. Like we were trying to plan a trip to drive over to Wa and I was hoping that might happen in time for you to try my Q3 out, which someone else has still got actually. I need to get that back. So sorry that I couldn't help you to let you. Let you try before you buy. But it's an amazing camera and the firmware update, as Dennis can attest to, the firmware update did greatly improve the autofocus and stuff. So, yeah, you'll love it. The image quality is epic. Yeah, yeah. Dennis says, mate, you will not regret that choice. Yeah, I don't think you're. [02:20:29] Speaker A: You've worked hard, Nev. Nev has worked his ass off over the last 18 months to build up his photography. Not only his skill set, but also his business acumen around running a photography business, making money off how he sees the light and captures the light and. And that should be applauded. And the best way to applaud that is with gas, which is gear acquisition syndrome. Lead into it, Nev. You've earned it, that's for sure. That's my view anyway. [02:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [02:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:20:53] Speaker B: You can drive 4000ks, Nev, and try mine out. That's totally fine. [02:20:58] Speaker A: Do that. If you leave now, you might get here by this time next week. We'll have you on the show every. [02:21:03] Speaker B: Everyone at some point during their photographic career should make the mistake of buying a Leica. And then I think you realize how good they are. And then you. Yeah, the camera enabler podcast. Yeah. Oh, what is that? What is that? [02:21:26] Speaker C: It's a. Like a. [02:21:27] Speaker A: Like. [02:21:28] Speaker B: Like a flex. Does it say. What does it say? [02:21:30] Speaker C: Like a flex. Yep. [02:21:31] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. [02:21:33] Speaker C: So [02:21:36] Speaker A: sorry, Craig. I thought I misheard you earlier. I'm pretty sure you said you only have one camera. [02:21:42] Speaker B: Just got one camera and one lens, plus all these other cameras, plus all [02:21:45] Speaker A: the other stuff that's on my shelf. They don't count as cameras. [02:21:47] Speaker B: I've got. [02:21:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I've got a whole camera collection. Goal. Sitting up here. We can, you know, we can do a box brownie if you like. We could do. I've got a camera that's made out of Baker light. [02:21:58] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [02:21:59] Speaker A: I'm coming to your place. [02:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Do a YouTube video on that. Greg Stubbing says invest the money you would spend on new gear into a workshop. That. That is obviously a, you know, any kind of experience workshop or. Yeah. To a travel tour, your own travel. Anything like that is. Is obviously an amazing idea. And it's. It's very common that people say that, but that doesn't mean. That doesn't mean you should never buy new gear and you should just always spend it on. On tours. I think there's a. There's a healthy balance and sometimes. [02:22:31] Speaker A: Do what you want. World's on fire. Get my camera. What the hell, Bruce? Now, before shipping becomes so ridiculously expensive that we can't afford it. [02:22:41] Speaker B: Well, that's true. Bruce says we shouldn't ask you about your Simpsons collection. Is that what. [02:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, we should. [02:22:49] Speaker C: Hey, Bruce, I've got a whole, whole row of all Simpsons figurines and pens and stuff. [02:22:58] Speaker B: Oh, really? You're a fan? [02:23:01] Speaker C: Yeah, look, I. I remember seeing the Simpsons when it first came out on the telly. We all crammed ourselves into our dorm room at uni and watched the Simpsons. So I love the Simpsons. [02:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, very, very cool. I'm keen to see what you do with. With the, you know, men and their collectibles concept. I'm a bit of a collector. I'm more of a Nintendo fanboy. Always have been. And for years, I hid my dirty secret that I liked Nintendo stuff for fear that people would mock me for being a child. But I've grown out of that. [02:23:45] Speaker B: Again, I have a question. I have a question about the book. Just quickly, just quickly. One about the book You. You were working on Men and their Collectibles. Have you ever considered a Women and Their Sheds book? [02:23:58] Speaker C: I did, yes, I did. [02:24:00] Speaker B: Interesting. They'd be, it would obviously be, you know, like finding subjects would be slightly trickier but they'd be super interesting. [02:24:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I did. I've seen quite a few, I've mentored quite a few people and wanting. Because once my shed book came out they, people started doing their own and environmental portraits and started doing women and things like that. Look, I, I, like I said I did consider it. Yeah. I just gotta, I just gotta get back out and do it. I could talk about it all you like and, and thinking about it, but yeah, I'm a bit busy at the moment. [02:24:45] Speaker B: I was gonna say there's seasons for things as well and at the moment it sounds like you're in the season of, of growing a new business and. Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's. I think I'm a big believer in one of those things that you can't do everything all at once. You can't give your attention to everything all at once. And you know, sometimes things just have to take a backseat while, while everything else is going well and you're putting your energy into it and doing another like, like huge project business. [02:25:17] Speaker C: My go on, Craig. No go, Greg. [02:25:20] Speaker A: No, I was just going to say I think it's fair to say also that, you know, you went down the path that wasn't that you were excluding a particular group in community. It was that, you know, you yourself are experiencing some mental health challenges. You yourself were trying to identify what it means to be a man in Australia with, you know, with going through mental health issues. And so the book, naturally you gravitated to it because you were looking for answers for yourself as well. [02:25:46] Speaker C: Absolutely, that's, that's 100% correct. And look, you know, men are, let's just face. Men are typical and they shouldn't be typical of holding back their feelings and communicating. Women have no problem communicating and getting together and, and you know, having that, that little morning tea together and. But men will just retreat. They'll go to their safe space which is what they think their safe space is in their head or you know, locked in a room or walked somewhere else or, and not reaching out and communicating. Men are definitely struggle with the, the communication front and you know, I'm, my phone is always on. If you call me at 3am I'll probably answer. I would say, yeah, okay, what can I do for you? But you know, my phone's always there for you to ring and you know, I've had some, some troubling times even of, of light that know I just. And. And then I need to reach out. So I reach out and I make that phone call to a friend and saying, look, I'm just, you know, I just needed to chat because I'm, I'm. I'm taking my head somewhere where I don't want it to. To be. So I have the chat, get it out, and then I move on. [02:27:13] Speaker A: Yep. [02:27:13] Speaker C: So it just, it's. Men, unfortunately, are. Have the, the innate ability of. Not of isolating themselves. Yeah. [02:27:27] Speaker A: Yep. [02:27:29] Speaker B: Well said. [02:27:30] Speaker A: Very poignant, very well said. And I think it's, it's quite possibly a good place to, to wrap on that point. But I do want to maybe Justin, if you can ask your zombie apocalypse question, but maybe we can add the twist of if you could choose a cat like if from your collection from. [02:27:47] Speaker B: Well, I mean. Yeah, I guess so. I think. I figure. So you, you're obviously we usually ask everyone what the, what the zombie apocalypse camera would be. It sounds like yours would be the R5 with the 24 to 70. But is there, is there anything else in your collection that, that you would grab in the event camera lens of a zombie apocalypse or maybe to photograph the potentially real, potentially fake moon landing? If you had to have one. If you had to just pick one camera, one lens? Because weight. Oh, that's beautiful. Weight is critical in that lunar lander. What would you, what would you grab? [02:28:33] Speaker C: We're talking the apocalypse. Yeah, we're gonna get deep and meaningful with the apocalypse. You can't, you can't charge batteries, so why have an R5? [02:28:45] Speaker B: That's a good point. [02:28:46] Speaker A: I, I just have a little. I have an R5 at all. But why haven't. [02:28:49] Speaker C: Why have a camera that relies on battery? So look, to be honest, I, I do. I keep gravitating to the thought process of, of owning a Hustle blood again and having a house of blood film camera with an 80 mil lens. [02:29:05] Speaker A: Nice. [02:29:06] Speaker C: I am obsessed with the square format. I do a lot of square format in. In my. When I do my walks of well being. Even though I'm shooting with my R5, my square format, my crop, there's just something about the square format. Maybe it's from my early days of my childhood with shooting Hustleblood cameras. There's just something about a hospital camera. And no, I don't. Don't have a Hustleblood. I sold it. [02:29:39] Speaker A: Are you doing the World's on Fire, Go and buy it. You've worked really hard the last 18 months. I know I just said exactly the same things to Nev, but go on, do it. [02:29:48] Speaker B: Imagine doing a walks for. Well, being with a nice new. A nice. Well, nice old Hasselblad. [02:29:53] Speaker C: I know. I'll take Glenn's attitude. I dare you. [02:29:58] Speaker B: I. Yeah, yeah, dare you. Awesome. [02:30:02] Speaker C: I'll dare myself. [02:30:07] Speaker A: Should we call Justin on your. On your little list there. [02:30:10] Speaker B: There's other stuff we could dive into, but nothing. That's nothing. That's a short conversation. We'll have to save it for a part two one day, I think. [02:30:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we should do a part two. We could. We could do a part two, I [02:30:21] Speaker A: think we could do. [02:30:22] Speaker C: We could do an amazing part two, I reckon. [02:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. All right, Definitely. [02:30:26] Speaker A: Let's work towards that. And of course, we'll see you at bright 2026@bfop. [02:30:31] Speaker C: You will. [02:30:32] Speaker A: We're looking forward to catching up with you then and spending whatever time we can eke out of a busy schedule. But look, I think it's fair to say, Craig, that your story and your storytelling is compelling. You've achieved a huge amount in your photographic career and you've survived even more, which I think is a testament to your strength of character to keep pushing forward, keep exploring your craft, keep expanding your craft. And I think what is giving me goosebumps is the concept that you're prepared to take whoever wants to join that. That journey with you and support them in that process. And I know even from my personal experiences of spending time with you at bfop last year, we had a. A very compelling and. And emotional discussion and about life. You know, you've got a. You've certainly got a knack for being present, not just for your craft, but for people as well. And I think full credit to you for developing that attitude and that approach to life. So. But on behalf of us here at the Camera Life podcast, we thank you for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure catching up with you once again and spending time understanding what makes makes you tick. Your story, your craft, and how you face the world. It's been absolutely remarkable. And on behalf of everyone in the chat, I'm sure they agree. Thank you so much for your time today. [02:31:56] Speaker C: Thank you for having me. And thank you, everyone. And, yeah, look forward to next time. [02:32:01] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [02:32:02] Speaker B: Thanks, Craig. [02:32:03] Speaker C: Thanks. [02:32:04] Speaker A: On that note, I'll play some music and say goodbye to some folks. Yeah, yeah. [02:32:08] Speaker B: We'll read out a few comments on the way out. Let's see what's going on. Phil Thompson's. Thanks for the show, guys, has been very interesting listening to Craig, not only photographically, but for the relationships and counseling. Keep it up. Pete Mellow says, thanks, Craig. Dennis Smith says the helicopter is in for maintenance or I'd be over in the morning. That's right. If you're in Melbourne tomorrow morning, sometime on the steps of Parliament. I can't Remember what time. 9:00am 9:00am 9:00am 9am 9:00am Steps upon Monday night. [02:32:38] Speaker A: I'll show you some photos from that very walk. [02:32:40] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll hold you to that. Greg Stubbing says, persistence, devotion and dedication. Thanks, Craig. And gents, who else? I think David Mascaris is one of the best shows yet. Thanks, guys. And thanks, Craig. Thanks, David. Glenn Lavender says, lovely to catch up, guys. Be well, be safe, be happy. He's in Bangladesh. That's pretty cool. Thanks for joining us. And yeah, Greg stubbing says a 500 cm. Get that. Who else is there? Dennis, Douglas Porter. Thank you. Bruce Moyle. Thanks. Nev Clark. Thanks. Good to see you. Philip Johnson. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Felicity. And we'll catch you guys on the next one. [02:33:23] Speaker A: Be safe out there. Bye, everyone. [02:33:25] Speaker C: See ya.