EP38 The Art of Light Painting with Denis Smith

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Is it? I was made for loving you, baby. [00:00:05] Speaker B: You were made for loving. [00:00:08] Speaker C: For those of you watching, for those of you watching along at home, this is the Camera Life podcast. And that intro music was proudly brought to you by our two guests, which we'll get to in just a moment. But this is episode 38 of the camera Life podcast, proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps out of Bendigo, Victoria. And it's the 14th of November. And good morning to anyone watching and listening along, either live with us today or down the track via YouTube or your favorite audio podcast platform. For those of you watching along, you'll notice that there's a really distinct lack of members from the Lucky Straps team. I mean, obviously I'm here, but I'm more of a Lucky Straps groupie that are than a, you know, fully fledged member. But we are joined by Camera Life alumni, a good friend of mine and photography mentor, Ian Tan. Ian, welcome. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:01:05] Speaker C: Always good to have you back on, mate. You always have a lot to offer. We, Justin and Jim are both. Well, Justin's still in Vietnam. For anyone watched last week or listened last week, Justin has disappeared to Vietnam for a couple of weeks. No plans. He just arrived in country and they're just going to wing at him and Yelena, Jim will be joining us a little bit later in the morning with any luck, as should Justin. So for those of you that watched last week or the week before, Justin's undertaking some photography challenges at the moment and he's working on photo essays and storytelling through photography. So we've got some of his images from his first week in Vietnam ready to critique, which I'll certainly welcome Dennis and Ian's views on that. Speaking of Dennis, we are joined by Dennis Smith. Yeah, he's a, he's a, he's a world renowned photographer and I've also seen some of his stunning videography work play out, which is quite magical. And we'll get to that in the course of today's podcast. But Dennis, welcome to the show. Great to have you on board. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Thank you, thank you. It's beautiful to be here. [00:02:14] Speaker C: That's great to have you on. Great to have you on. Big highlight of the week for me is having this podcast and talking shop with like minded folk. We're going to get stick around and we're going to get into Dennis's story, we're going to learn about his inspirations, we're going to learn about his work, we're going to look at some of his work and kind of unpack what is truly a masterful. Yeah. Photography is not. I don't think it's the right term. It's art. It's definitely art and it's what we all do. Which is, which is, you know, we chase light, we hunt light, we look for the light in the scene and we, we master that light and time. But Dennis takes it to the very, very, very next level with his light painting. So we'll cover that. So, yeah, welcome. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Thank you very much. It's a. I think it's. I was just as you were describing that. Firstly, thank you for your kind words. It's. It's always a pleasure to be able to have the opportunity to discuss what I do and the nature of what I do. So often it's delivered with words and via YouTube and stuff. But open form, long form conversation I think is really beautiful and it's a. I appreciate the invitation. Thank you. [00:03:35] Speaker C: It's our pleasure. We very excited to get you on board. Well, I mean, obviously after meeting you at BFOP throughout the weekend and for those of you that don't know what Beef up is, it's the Bright Festival of Photography. We've got a couple of episodes on the channel about how Justin and I attended BE FOP and just the madness that ensued and, and more often than not, I think Dennis was a part of that madness. So we'll, we might cover a little bit of bfop. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:04:02] Speaker C: While we're talking about it because I do want to learn more about your involvement in BFOP and your history of bfop. But yeah, BFOP guys, is the Bright Festival of Photography. It's held every year in the most beautiful regional Victorian town of Bright here in Australia. And it, yeah, it was quite a magical, fun, surreal weekend. [00:04:23] Speaker A: That's crazy. Beef up is what it beat. Bright is I've done. I think I keep trying to work it out. I think I've done every Bright bar one. So maybe six or seven of them right from the beginning when it was, you know, 100 people in a tiny little marquee and bright. And now it's just the most epic stuff. 550 attendees, 40 presenters, 20 volunteers. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And all the brands and support staff. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really. But it, you know, and not wanting to jump ahead. But for me, I've done more air miles than I ever have than any other year this year. Yet the absolute highlight for me always is that date when I get to arrive in Bright and connect with my tribe. You know, I live in a small country town where there's Hardly any people. So it's. Yeah, it's astonishing. Every year. [00:05:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:22] Speaker A: And I have more on that. [00:05:24] Speaker C: Yeah, no, good, we'll get to that. And Ian, you were. Not that anyone saw you. I don't actually believe you were there. You said you were. Although I have seen some photos of you conducting yourself professionally, as always, in what you love doing, which is cosplay photography. And you were running a workshop. Let's touch on BFOP while we're here. Tell us. [00:05:45] Speaker B: It was a great opportunity. My first time. Not my first Beef Up. I've been to probably maybe three before. [00:05:52] Speaker C: I mean, as an instructor. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Sorry, but as an instructor. This was my first year and it was great. Just Fujifilm wanted to get a cosplay workshop happening, so they kindly asked me to come over and do that. The interesting. Well, the difficult thing for me with this workshop probably was securing the cosplayers because I don't know if a lot of people know, but the B FOP dates actually clash with the largest cosplay event of the year, which is pax. PAX is a massive video game convention that happens in Melbourne on the same weekend as B fop. So for most cosplayers, it's their major. It's their major event for them to do their cosplay and catch up with friends and that sort of stuff. Thankfully, I managed to secure. I had a couple of friends who weren't planning to attend PAX or who were happy to attend B4 in place of PAX. And it was great. I really wanted to share the world of cosplay photography with different photographers because I think there's a growing awareness about what cosplay is, but still not many people understand what. What it is. They just think it's people dressing up for fun. Largely it probably is, but there's a core group of cosplayers who do take it very seriously. They put in tons of efforts into their cosplay outfits. They sew, they fabricate foam, they 3D print materials, they'll paint, they'll cut, they'll do everything to make their costumes looking as amazing as they do. And they also role play the part, which is. Which is a kind of different from traditional. I don't know if you're shooting a fashion model, for example, where they just do their poses. Cosplays have their poses, but more often they're trying to tell the story of their character through the costume as well. So it was great doing that at Beef up, where I was trying to encourage all the participants to really Use their photos to tell that story. And often I'll just set them a very easy assignment and I'll say, look, I want you to tell me a story in three frames, take three shots, and those three shots have to tell a story. It was really cool to see everyone embracing that challenge and telling the story in their own way. So, yeah, it was a lot of fun and hopefully I get the chance to do it again next year. [00:08:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, we hope to see you there next year. Lucky Straps will be back next year. We. We had a blast and we'll definitely be back, but we've already covered that a lot in our past episodes. But I do want to dive into Dennis, your involvement in bfop because you have a wonderful magnetic energy and personality that made you feel like you were as entrenched in beef up as the organizers were, which I found quite inspiring to see in you tell it. You said you've been to. You think maybe this was about your sixth? [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I would. I would need to look back. I definitely did one or two prior to Covid and then there were two that we did online, which were hilarious, by the way. Yeah. Where we were trying to do this festival online and smashed it out of the ballpark, I think. Yeah. And then. And then up and Bright, as it's sort of grown, I drive across from Adelaide, so each year I try and get there. So it's a. This year I did it in 11 and a half hours, which means I stopped to use a bathroom and fill the tank up again. But I do it direct. And this year we were. I have another guy who comes to write, Joel, who has leaned into this idea of just becoming a film photographer. And he. He thinks I'm a weirdo because I don't. I've never shot with film because I'm very new. We'll talk about this. I came to photography very late in my life. So we planned this three day epic trip into the hills above Bright so that I could put some film in his xpan and do some light painting with film. Unfortunately, some actual work that pays the mortgage came up. So I ended up doing an overnight drive through the night and got to Bright, I think at like 4:30am to be there on setup day to help set up. But look, Bright, the befop thing, it's really. I think this is the most beautiful way to describe where it's at rather than what it has been. And that is this thing. BFOP has this feeling about it and it's this feeling of madness, of disorganization everyone, including the instructors are pre warned that is going to be top to tail cock ups and you just need to deal with it. And it would appear that that as, as it's grown that's kind of also manifest, you know, gone into people trying to get there and get organized. But what has happened is I stood in front of, I, I, I was given the last slot for my presentation about my India trip this year. So I stood in the room delivering my presentation about India, looking out across a room. 300, 400 people. [00:11:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I watched that one. [00:11:27] Speaker A: All I could think to myself is this is how is it possible? And the wonderful thing that Matt and Nick have done is as this thing has exploded in size, it still feels like beef up. It feels like the first one. It feels crazy and disorganized and fun. [00:11:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:46] Speaker A: More importantly, I think than anything is every single presenter that comes to that event and presents does it for love. It's certainly not for money. We turn up and we deliver presentations and workshops and walking around and meeting people because we love doing it. And the nice thing about that is it takes the pressure off us because, you know, we're just being us. But something changed this year. I think this is worth mentioning. It felt different this year. There was this, there was this, and I don't know if it's because of the economy or because what things are like in our industry at the moment, but there was this real sense of vulnerability amongst us, the presenters. There was this sort of a, you know, the, the egos had all sort of been dialed back a bit and there was this real sense of, of vulnerability amongst us, but also the people coming. [00:12:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:53] Speaker A: And it allowed us to do what I think a lot of us up there do really well. And that is just to create a space, hold space for people to just express. And so for me with my light painting or the, a lot of the workshops, it's where people, you know, like cosplay, think about cosplay. People are turning up. They probably never photograph cosplay. There's 20 other attendants standing there. Everyone's nervous about sort of, you know, am I, am I a good photographer? Am I a bad photographer? Okay. Am I allowed to say I don't know what I'm doing or not? And BFOP is this place where it is completely safe. It is safe to acknowledge you don't know anything. It's safe to burst into tears because something has triggered you, you know, that the workshop, the presenters or, you know, us that are taking them are going to hold space for you to be all of those things. [00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:45] Speaker A: And it felt like that was lifted a little bit this year because I saw some things that were so beautiful. [00:13:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I saw. I, I, I sat in on one of Jesse's workshops, the Intimate Portrait. Intimate Couples Portrait Workshop. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Up at Red. Red Cliff. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Yep. Red. [00:14:04] Speaker C: Red Earth Lodge. Thank you. That was on. I think that was day one. [00:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:10] Speaker C: No, it was day two. It was first thing in the morning, and we're standing in the, in the woods, and the sun was coming in at a beautiful angle. And Jesse is, is such a vulnerable person, and he does create that safe space. He does. You know, he's just got this natural awareness of where everyone's kind of at. And, and there were, I think about three or four of us ended up breaking down in tears because he was explaining the need for connection with your subjects and, you know, and explained a bit about his own need for connection and know made himself very vulnerable and raw. And one of the participants whose mother had recently passed away just broke down. And then he broke down, and then three or four of us started tearing up. And it was just such a beautiful moment. And it, it added, it didn't necessarily change the outcome of our images, but the images, you know, that, that was, that was just a byproduct of the experience. It was evidence, if anything. You know, I didn't necessarily take those shots to post all over Instagram for likes. I took it because I was part of the experience and I wanted to remember it, you know, and it's, it does create a safe space, I found. And I think that was part of the, for me, anyway, that was part of what made B Flop feel surreal. Yes, there was the craziness and the disorganized elements, but there was also a sense of rhythm, emotion to it that you went from one photography experience to the next. And even if it was sitting, you know, being, you know, buggered after a workshop, and, and you've been walking around town and you've just eaten one of the burgers from Alpine Platter, you know, you can sit inside at BFQ and you listen to yourself talk about your videography process in India or your, or Joel talking about photographing film, film weddings. And then that ends, and then all of a sudden you see someone that you recognize or someone remembers you from something more. You know, it just morphs and it flows like a river. Yeah, it was so beautiful. [00:16:06] Speaker A: It's a remarkable, It's a remarkable thing. It's, it's a, it's, it's that's that's, that's all I ever think about is. That's what it is. It's just remarkable. It's interesting talking about, you know, this, that I. You just made me think of something. The, this idea of when you go and, and just back to. So it's Jesse. It was Jesse's first beef up. So I, Yeah, we, we connected quite beautifully and he. There are people who, who fit the BFOP mold and don't. There's the core stuff where you need to just knuckle in and just deal with the chaos. But the other thing is all of those things you were just talking about, but you made me think about something that I try and express when I'm or should make sure people are really comfortable with, when we're about to start a workshop. And that is this thing. But for me, if I, if I share my screen and show or you go to my website or my Instagram and you see one of my images, for me, when I see those, the. Without getting too deep into the this. But the pixels that you see on the screen are almost like, almost irrelevant for me. All I really care about these days is whether I look at an image of my own and it makes me feel something. If you look at it and it's visually pleasing for you, that's like a bonus, right? If you like it. But I don't care if you like anything I make. All that matters now is that I look at an image and it makes me feel something. And those feelings for me now and all I seek in my photography is I want to remember the experience. I want to know how I felt when I made it. I want to. I remember the utter madness on the train in India, going somewhere or on a plane or walking down to my local beach and this thing happening. And so for me, the depth in an image, when I first started photography, it was always just literally 2D. It was the pixels on the screen or whatever it was two dimensional. It's like, oh, that's pretty. And oh, I managed to get the highlights and the shadows really well. But as I get older and more into my photography, the depth in the image is all I care about. The backstory, how it made me feel, the adventure and that. I think about that a lot and often at workshops and it happened at beef up for me a lot this year is really giving people permission to worry less about what the pixels are at the end. And one of, one of the things I suggest is I want you to make this image imagining that you're Never going to share it online. You are the only person that will ever see this image. So now what are the things that matter? And it's remarkable how it's way more important that they take a breath, slow down, make the. All the other things. [00:18:56] Speaker C: Yep, I agree and I think you're right. I think as you, as you age and wisen in your craft, in your art, and I found this myself, you know, starting off as a street and travel photographer, you know, almost 10 years. I mean, I've been. I did film and all that sort of stuff, but, you know, more recently than the last decade. When I first started off, I was too worried about what people thought about my craft. And being a street photographer is really tricky because it's polarizing or can be depending on your style. And now I just do it because I love the experience. I love being out on the street. I love seeing how people interact with their world. I have my own reasons for starting that. And we can cover that a bit later, quickly. But. But yeah, and I think. And also, you know, watching Ian, because I recently trailed. Tagged along, trailed Ian on a cosplay shoot at, what's it, Comic Con. Yeah. [00:19:53] Speaker B: Was it Comic Con? [00:19:54] Speaker C: Yeah, at the Melbourne Comic Con, which is, you know, probably the second biggest cosplay event I'd imagine. I'm not the expert, but I trailed in and. And watched him work and photographed him photographing cosplayers and wrote an article for ShotKit.com about the cosplay experience because I thought it was a story worth telling. But more importantly, I wanted to express how Ian approached his craft and the relationships he has with those cosplayers. Like, they were walking up to him in the main entrance hall at the convention Center Melbourne convention entertainment complex thing. And, you know, they were hugging him and laughing. You know, there was that real connection before he'd even picked up his camera. And I think that's just as important a part of the craft as you mature. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Well, people are remembering people. People are clearly remembering an experience that they had with you that was positive. It's. And you. That's the one. If you can. If you can go into. If you can go into an experience or if you can go into an interaction, that is what we do, making images with people when there's people in it and they can leave that experience and go away. And that initial thrill of whatever they're doing wears away. But the remaining memory is that they expect that the interaction with was so good that that is the reaction. You are a good photographer. [00:21:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:20] Speaker B: I mean, for me, it was like, I always try and form relationships with people. For me, it's about making friends and the good images that come out of that is really a result of that relationship. It is often quite evident when you're working with someone you don't know, and there's a little bit of uncomfortable air because you're unfamiliar versus someone you're so familiar with. They're just relaxed. They're able to let their personality come out because they're comfortable with you. So it does make a difference. But for me, I really enjoy making those connections and getting to know people and getting to understand what they like and trying to get them to be the best version of themselves they possibly can be. So, yeah, that's. That's one of the kicks I get out of cosplay photography. [00:22:16] Speaker A: So I have a question. I have a question for you, Ian, about that. So, and this may be a complete. I may be completely off target here, but my perception, having never been around cosplay people, apart from, you know, looking at your work and knowing what it is, my perception is that people in that environment, people who we think of as cosplayers, are people who. What's a way to think about it? People that are not extroverts like they might imagine. My thought of people who. And I don't want to use the. What I just said, I imagine people are into cosplay are kind of comic geeks or movie geeks, and they might not be people who feel confident and outgoing like a lot of us. And so it. That must make things interesting for you, where you're interacting with people who are not normally outgoing and vibrant. Is that right? Is that a. Is that perception right? [00:23:16] Speaker B: Well, it's. Well, yes, yes and no. Again, it's. It's. It's. We're trying to. We were dealing with the whole gamut of humanity here. Right? So you've got people. I know, I know cosplayers who are, you know, who work in hospitality, work in police force, who work as firies, who work as accountants or software engineers. So you get the whole gamut of people. And I don't know, it might appear that they are the extroverted type because they like to be out there. But being in cosplay can often be, I suppose, like another Persona for them so that they don't have to be there. So it can be a form of escape as well for them. But a lot of them really just get into it because they all. Because they're in a group of Friends and they all enjoy doing that. So it's very much communal activity as well. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker B: So, yeah, definitely. And often some cosplayers will, you know, they'll share with me saying that, oh, you know, yes, I've been out there, I've been doing all my cosplay stuff and now this is my me time. I need, I need some quiet time for a while just to let my recharge because it does take a lot of them. You know, some of them will be a convention will last the whole day and it will start at 9am, go all the way down to 6, 6pm or something like that. So full day. And some of them will spend the entire day cosplay. You know, they're in six, seven inch heels, they're in skin tight bodysuits. You know, they, they've probably drunk a cup of water and maybe had a small bite of something to eat for the whole, for the whole day. So it's, it's, it's pretty full on for them. And it does take a lot of physical stamina and mental fortitude to be able to, you know, push through the whole day if they can. Some of them will even change outfits during the day. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? Really? Yeah, I think it's wonderful. I love watching it, I love seeing it. It's so creative. I do a lot of 3D printing and in a lot of the 3D printing things I see online, it's huge. The ability people. 3D printers have changed so much color and speed and the ease of making stuff. Yeah, they would be sharing files amongst the community, I imagine. And. [00:25:38] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah, I think 3D printing and foam forming, the, the stuff that people make with, with you know, the dense foam. Oh, it's incredible. There's whole channels, you know, for workshops on it. And, and because you can use heat, you can use resins and glues to, and you can make, you know, you've seen that some of the, the outfits are just phenomenal. [00:26:01] Speaker A: All right, Ian, so here's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw an idea at you because this is kind of how I roll. Imagine if you will, a room at Comic Con where it's a, it's a, it's a studio. People come in and we do. Because if I think of normal photography and light painting can actually merge. So, so that you, the, the skills that you have around shaping light with strobes and stuff and then inserting like imagine a booth where people came in, in their cosplay. Gear and we wrapped them in light at the same time. I'm just going to leave that there privately. [00:26:41] Speaker C: They would. [00:26:41] Speaker B: They would be. They would be thrilled. [00:26:43] Speaker C: Seriously. [00:26:44] Speaker A: It would be wild. So that's. We should. You and I should have a chat offline about making that happen next year. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Oh, certainly. [00:26:51] Speaker C: I think that's a great idea. I would love to see that too. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Now that is example documented. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:57] Speaker C: I've got to document it. That's my job. I am a journalist, after all. But please trust me on the subject of light painting, I want to dial back a little bit because that is what you're renowned for, Dennis, and. And rightly so. Your craft is absolutely stunning. Yeah. There's even on your site, which we'll link in the comments later. For those of you watching and listening along at home, there's even a documentary about some of your work and your site before I dial back. Your site is quite inspirational because it introduces you and what your philosophy is around your art. You've got a number of Galaxy Galleries. You've got a section on the tools that you use. You completely open and share your process. It's not like you're trying to gatekeep because this is your specialty. You've made it very accessible and very easy to learn. Putting aside your workshops that you run, the content online alone is quite thorough, which I think is wonderful. And I think that's a key part of our craft, is that we don't gatekeep. We share. Because if you share an idea with someone and then they learn something new and then they develop something, then they might share that back with you. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:19] Speaker C: And it might enhance your enjoyment of the craft and your output. And, you know, and I think that was something that I learned a lot about with bfop because it is so community centric. Bfop. It's all about bfop community. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Look, when I. When I started. When I started light painting in 2008, there was a. [00:28:39] Speaker D: It was. [00:28:40] Speaker A: It was basically a group called Light Junkies on Flickr. And. And we. That's when I bought my first camera in 2008 or nine. I was 38 years old. I'd never taken a photograph in my life with intent. And I thought it was part of. [00:28:56] Speaker D: A. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Part of a bit of a. I was managing my mental health and started walking around and making images and putting them on Flickr. And I thought. I thought, how is it possible that in the first year of being a photographer, I am the greatest photographer that has ever lived? Clearly, clearly there is some miraculous gift inside of me that has been bursting forth until. Until I went on Flickr and realized that, oh, okay, this is not the case. But while I was mincing around on Flickr, I discovered this thing called light painting. And the thing with light painting back then is that we had no choice but to make our own tools out of plastic bottles and hack things together. And. And there was this astonishing sharing of just ideas and things and we. And what. That's changed a little, I think, with the nature, with social media coming online. However, for me, it's never changed. And there's a couple of really important things here. The first thing is that I truly believe that it's an old adage, but when the tide rises, we all rise. So if I discover a technique or a way or an idea, here it is. Here's how I do it. Here's how I make it. And you take. So if you. If someone can grab an idea that I might have shared and super important to just lay this down as a solid concrete foundation. I stand on the shoulders of giants. There is not one part of my light painting that exists in the world that is not either something that someone has. I've seen someone do, or is a. More importantly is an amalgamation of techniques. And that's an important thing to think about. So I have everything I do, I've learned from other people, but I take those ideas and I mince them around. And here's how I made this thing. What has happened is. So my YouTube channel is full of the basics. Here's how to set your camera up. Here's how to do this thing. So as I've moved forward, I've moved more into sort of this idea of not so much the fundamental basics, but here's you. You can see how I make this thing. Yeah, do the work. Go and spend some time looking back at the old stuff and figure some stuff out for yourself. But here is. You can see how it is. And AI has sort of pushed that a little bit. Where we go, you know, it's by the nature of light painting forever. There's been this thing. Oh, it's just photo. Back in the day, it was Photoshop or composite or whatever. Now it's like, oh, you could just do that with AI. And so it has really encouraged me more and more to make sure that people can actually physically see what I'm doing in creating these images. So there's no confusion. [00:31:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that it's real. [00:31:48] Speaker A: Can inspire and motivate them to go, wow, I can do this thing. And then you wrap it in that sort of wrapping of this idea that the important part is to going out and doing it and. But you're right, I have no. There is only one technique that I do. There's only one series I do that I have kept very, very personal because it's at the early stages. But everything else, I have no secrets. Anyone can ask me any question about my technique, my gear, my philosophy, my mental health, my. And I just, I'm. Yeah, it surprises me how little I don't. Yeah, a lot of. I don't get a huge amount of contact from people asking me stuff, but when I do, it's really beautiful. I love it. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. I mean, even in the street, in the street photography world, which is kind of where I dwell. And I do. I do street walks with our Fujifilm Australia community group. Ian and I are admins on that group because this is the Fujifilm podcast. Don't tell Justin I said that. But, you know, having people come up and say, so what? And I find this is the biggest stumbling block for people in any environment. I noticed it at BFOP where people, you know, Jesse would set the scene, tell them what we're trying to capture, and people say, so what settings do I use? And I think that's the biggest. Because it. People know fundamentally what they should do is that they should just try it and shoot because they can check it on the little screen on the back of the camera. But there's that fear of I'm going to get this wrong if I don't have the right settings, you know, and, and I love helping people with that basic stuff. And I noticed that, like you said, a lot of your content has the fundamentals because that can be a big stumbling block for some people. It can be a hurdle that people don't know that, you know, if I want my portrait to look good, well, then I want to go with a wide aperture. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:43] Speaker C: You know, and people need to learn that stuff, but they also need to learn it the hard way by going out and taking images to get the one that they like. Let's roll back a little bit. You said that you, you picked up your first camera in 2008. [00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Tell us about that experience and journey. What, what you've talked about your mental health. I hope you don't mind me asking this question, but not at all, because I have a similar story. But what was it that made you decide that photography was going to be the thing to help with your mental health? [00:34:15] Speaker A: Look, I, when I, My, my back, my backstory is well documented and like you say there's a little piece on on the website but fundamentally what happened is, is in pre 20089 I was working for a big global corporate in sales high pressure with what I realized now was undiagnosed quite severe ADHD which answers a lot of questions about my early life. But basically there was a huge financial crisis in 2008 that smashed new Zealand in the face. And when you're a high end sales guy selling million dollar printing machines your order book empties fast. And I was, my life was a mess and this will probably a lot of people will resonate with this and they but often don't like admitting it that I was managing my mental health with alcohol and drugs. I had no idea how to manage money but was making a mountain of money. And so when things go pear shaped, it went pear shaped very quick and had a quite a terrible mental health breakdown in New Zealand. And my astonishing wife scooped me up off the ground literally. We sold everything we had in New Zealand and paid off a lot of my debt and moved to Australia with, with a half a 20 foot container and a suitcase and moved into my mother in law's spare bedroom in Australia. And I kind of, I started getting my shit together and was trying to thinking of something to do and had bought this little Canon 450D with a plastic, with a 50 mil plastic fantastic lens and started walking. So I was walking around the Boss Valley, which is this beautiful place and walking around and had this little camera. What I think of now is quite comical but oh my gosh, I tell you what, I just remember having something to focus on, you know like I had this thing at last where I could go ah, everything sort of all my problems were kind of washing away and I had something to focus on. And again now I have now that I realize what I was dealing with in my head. But I was exercising, I was discovering nature. I was going into the Australian outback with this little camera and making images. I discovered light painting. So I started doing this work at night. It sort of filled all these sort of boxes of making things and experimenting and doing exciting things, discovering nature. And so quickly it helped, it made me feel better, it gave me a focus. I found a community online of other light painters. But when I look back and I think about what is the thing, what is the real thing about photography that is really important now? And I think so a week ago I celebrated 15 years of sobriety. So I have, it's been 15 years since I had a Drink and light painting is why that happened. And it was. This is. I was drinking a lot and one night, Kyrie, my wife and I went, maybe I shouldn't be getting in the car at night and heading off into the, into the night to do this light painting. Maybe I should knock the alcohol. Try knocking the alcohol in the head. And it was overnight I stopped drinking. And so in the space of about three, four months, this sort of transformation from this complete wreck of a human, the shell of a, of a, of a human, into this quite excited, vibrant someone with focus and photography and light painting kind of was the, was the, was the catalyst and the vehicle for that to happen all on this hilarious little camera and with a plain, this plastic Hanamex tripod that someone gave me. And I look back down, it was. It's like spaghetti, this thing. [00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:38] Speaker A: But I was making images in that first year, 2009, that still get published today. Still. Some of the best images I ever made were made in those first years. And so, you know, we could talk about gear all day, but that doesn't really matter. But that's how it came to me. That was the beginning. [00:38:58] Speaker C: I think it's a good, I think it's a good point about the gear. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:02] Speaker C: You know, people often get another stumbling block. And one thing I did notice at bfop, loved everyone there, but people were showing up with, you know, and I was just cruising with a 5 year old Fujifilm XC4 and a 27 mil prime or a 50 mil prime. Like I had a really simple kit, but people were showing up with serious dollars spent on gear. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:28] Speaker C: And more often than not, they were the people that asked me what settings should I put it on? You know, and I, and I. It's not, I'm not criticizing, it might be a little judgy, but I'm trying not to be. I think it's an interesting paradox where we all get swept up in gear acquisition and fomo and the people at the store tell us what we need and our friends tell us what we need. And there's a little competitiveness and a little pride in having the latest Canon or Sony or Nikon or Fuji or whatever. But it doesn't make you a better photographer. [00:39:59] Speaker A: Not at all. [00:40:00] Speaker C: It's the journey and the experience and just being there, being present with a camera in your hand is what makes you a better photographer. Taking the thousand shit shots, getting home, putting them in lightroom, going, oh, okay. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Now anyone, anyone watching this that knows me will. And some people are quite vocal about expressing this online but I have a interesting gear story and situation. So you may be able to see so over here that there's two cameras on this rig here. I'm preparing for a trip and they are both Olympus cameras. Now the one on the little1 is a 5 is an em1, em1 mark2 or something like that. So this is a, this is an 8 year old micro 4 third camera. I love that thing. I love shooting with it. It's perfect for what I need it for, for this particular situation and that is shooting in a really bright. This is a situation where I need that camera right now. And this is the thing sitting in a box over there. About to go back to matte at Fuji is a GFX1 hundreds two. Right. I've been thrashing that thing since beef up. Down in my bag here is the Leica Q3. Sony is my. Sony is my main workhorse for my commercial work. And the reason I like to make this point is I was an Olympus visionary for I think six years. They had a change in business model. I still shoot with the gear all the time. People online are very, very, very quick to be, you know, very tribal about the gear they use and very, you know I, in my Lightroom catalog I have 67 cameras. That either makes me, that either makes me a complete camera slot or an explorer look. The reason people like Matt from Fuji and people, the reason there's 67 cameras is camera companies like giving me cameras to try and use and thrash because I believe, because I absolutely beat the shit out of these things. You know, light painting is all about highlights and shadows. You know, we are pushing the limit of the gear to the absolute nth degree. So I take these things out and I play with them and experiment. But I tell you what, the most fun I ever have is when I grab a camera that should not be doing what I'm doing with it and make something with it. Yeah, yep, a great book. The gear you can, I can put the gear thing to rest in two seconds and I. And I'm so passionate about this. A great image has nothing to do with how much noise is in it, how well it's in focus, how, how many gazillion pixels it is. It has nothing to do with that. A great image is an image that you look at and it punches you in the gut when you look at it because you either remember something beautiful or it is something so shocking that you, you can't believe it or it make or you know, all of those things are all that Matters I was lucky enough to be. Well, no, there was no luck involved. I was in London for the first time a month ago and I had 48 hours in London and I went to the VA, the Victorian Albert. They have this astonishing photography wing and it is one of the most astonishing places I've ever been in my life. Like, you walk down this room and the walls are just covered in, you know, the great historic photographs and photographers. Bresson, you know, Dorothea, I can't remember her name, but. But all these. And there's a reason that in the greatest museum in the world and the greatest photography museum in the world, this image is there. And I promise you, it is grainy and out of focus and shitty, but it is. There's a reason it's in a museum. Yeah, yeah. There we are. [00:44:22] Speaker C: I think the biggest problem is that. [00:44:25] Speaker A: So. [00:44:25] Speaker C: No, don't, don't, don't zip it up your mouth. That is. Consumerism is, is the evil of art. It makes us think about the tools too much tools are necessary in any, in any task, but it doesn't allow us to think enough about the hand holding the tool. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker C: You know, consumerism's telling us that we need 42 megapixels. We now need a Q3 with 60. Oh, you've got the 60 28. Now you need the. What is it, a 35 or a 40? You know, it's constantly throwing at you that what you're doing isn't good enough. We don't all fall into that. That trap and that marketing bucket. But it's always there, it's always present and we see the impacts of it in all manners of. Whether it be fashion or, you know, cosmetics or photography. It's. Marketing is telling us that it's not enough. [00:45:21] Speaker A: Well, and we live in this. We live in this time. Right, Where. So I do reviews on my. I've just. I'm just sort of reframing what I'm doing on my YouTube channel. It's a pretty chunky channel, but like all YouTube and all social media now, it's complicated to get traction. Right. And I don't really care about traction, but the point I want to make is this. That. So I do this new thing called Smith. Smith tries stuff. Smith makes stuff. But Smith tries stuff is me grabbing a piece of gear and going out and having a play with it. And I. Yes, on the screen there. This is a great example. So Hobo Light is this lighting company. They have a local importer. They send me the thing and say, try this out. Because they know that I'm going to do something completely bonkers and have a play. I don't sit on there and go, yeah, this is the greatest thing ever made. You know, I go, well, yeah, it's good, it works. But. But it's flawed. The GFX100, right. Great camera. I mean, of course, but I'm never going to use it. And 99.9% of people who own cameras are never going to use that camera. And in my review, I say, you want to be really careful about buying this camera because. And X reasons, right? [00:46:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:39] Speaker A: We live in this time where so much of this shit that exists on social media are shills trying to impress some weird company because they're sitting on the YouTube channel or Instagram telling people how magnificent these cameras in this car is when it's. So much of it now is just bullshit. Clickbait. [00:47:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it's hard to know. It's hard to. Hard to pull the truth out of it. [00:47:07] Speaker A: It's so hard, you know. You know, like, I went, I bought a Q3 and it. I bought that camera for a whole lot of reasons. I was off to India to do an India trip and. And I knew it would be a great street camera. It was kind of a. A bit of a. A gift to myself, you know, sort of a coming of age because it's, It's a camera that you buy when, you know. But I thrashed that thing. I've had it for a year now and it looks like I've had it for 10. Like, I, I use it, I thrash it. It is seriously flawed as a camera in some aspects, but they all are, you know, it. Yeah. Gear. Gear is it. It's a. And it's hard if you are looking to buy gear to navigate what is and isn't important or isn't. Isn't good. It's so hard. That's the thing I find. [00:48:03] Speaker C: Yep. [00:48:04] Speaker B: I think, I think also it can be a journey. Like, I know when I first started my photography hobby, or what now becomes more than a hobby, but when I first started it, you know, I was like everyone else, like, suffered from fomo. I was like, new camera, I got to get a new camera. And I was literally upgrading camera bodies. You know, every time a new one came out, I'd upgrade. And at some. And at some point I realized, look, really doesn't make a difference having 20 more megapixels or, you know, having having the latest, greatest lens that can with an aperture at, you know, F1 or something like that. It's, it's what you do with it. And, and if you, if you look back across the history of photography, even when digital cameras first came out, you know, they were like 2 megapixels or something. And the images that, that, that were taken with those cameras were still amazing and they're still amazing today. So it really isn't about the gear, it's about how you use it. [00:49:03] Speaker A: And it's also. [00:49:04] Speaker B: Sorry and at some point in your photography journey we can keep telling people this, but I think it's something that everyone needs to experience for themselves that using the gear and taking the photos over time, at some point they realize, you know what, what I'm using works for me. You know, I don't need to get the latest and greatest. I don't, I understand what, I'm gonna make you a better photography that I, that I, that I take. Um, and then that. And honestly, over the last four years I really haven't really bought that much gear. [00:49:40] Speaker C: You know, I sold most of it. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think one of the, one of the things to think about, like anyone watching this, I need to remember it's not just the three of us. Anyone watching this though it's very easy to sit watching this. Us three who are professional photographers sitting here going, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But what is frame it this way? I think what's really important. Yes. Coming to the realization that you should push your gear that you have until you genuinely need like really jet. But is all this is the thing that I think about so someone might go, well, why is it that you have a 60 megapixel Sony camera when you're making work that is for like. Well, here's a great example of why and when you do need 60 megapixels. So I was shooting, my main client is a big university here in Adelaide and I was making work for. On a Canon 5D Mark 3, I think so 20 megapixel camera, amazing piece of kit, like wild. I've got a great story about that camera. Telstra, Telstra contacted me and said we'd like to license an image to use at a big conference, a sales conference. I said, which one? Just send me a link to one you found on Instagram. They sent it to me and my heart fluttered as I panicked that this image was not. And it was on my 5D Mark 3 from like 2011. Opened it up and it was mind bendingly beautiful and perfect. It was perfect, this image. Anyway, I, this uni, I'm shooting for what's changed is in this new age of vertical and websites and in commercial photography. What they want me to deliver to them is wide. So if there's a scene, so let's say this is the scene and I'm in the scene. And then there might be a classroom here and then something here, what they need to be delivered is the wide shot and then have the ability to make selections from that shot. And so delivering a big, big file to them allows them latitude and cropping. Now that's a great case. That's a great example of when that stuff matters. This utter bullshit that exists that you need a lot of megapixels to print. That is one of the greatest myths in the history of photography. This image here on the wall, it's hard to see but that there is an AO print or an ao. So it is massive. That thing. And that was. That's a crop from a micro 4 3rd sensor. And it is perfect. You know, yeah, it's. You know, there's a lot of myths, but yeah, that's. That's a case, you know, each. Each tool for each situation. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:52:37] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. And I think, I know, Ian, you're about to jump off. You've got other responsibilities. But it's. I often liken it to a tradesperson. You know, sure, a builder could build a hammer with a. Sorry. Sure, a builder could build a house with a hammer and a box of nails, but it's not, it's not cost efficient, it's not time efficient and it's labor intensive. The right tool for the job for a builder to build a wooden frame house is a nail gun. Now you and I don't need a nail gun because we're not, we're not. We have a hammer just for the odd job around the house. We don't need a nail gun. And it's the same for cameras. You buy the tool, especially if you're working in a commercial space. Weddings, you know, really important stuff that you have to nail it. You have to get it right because it's not going to repeat all of that sort of, you know, you need the tool for the job and that's when you spend those dollars. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Now I was in. I was in Saudi Arabia shooting Formula One the beginning of this year. I did a job light painting with Formula one cars in. You know, I went over there knowing they wanted to achieve these images and these outrageously bright environments I refuse to composite. So the images always have to be in one frame. So we were over there making these Images in these insanely bright environments. It was a high pressure environment. They were, you know, that was the real deal. Now I had a cacophony of high resolution, super expensive cameras and lenses. Because you get one shot, right, they're. [00:54:14] Speaker C: Not going to fly you back. [00:54:16] Speaker A: They want to, you know, that image there on the, on the left hand side of the, on the track with the flames coming out the back in. There you go. So that there, you know, we, it's, it's, it's behind me are about 40 people. There's a giant 50 inch screen that my camera is tethered to. So every time I finish an exposer, everyone there is seeing the images. Like the pressure. [00:54:41] Speaker B: No pressure. [00:54:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Like I've hand scanned. Like that car is lit by hand. So I have a scanner that's in my hand that I am. You know, I think at the top of that page is a video that shows the technique people might be interested in seeing that, I think. Yeah, you know, this is, this is a highly, a highly technical, very, very intensive process that. Yeah, you literally get one shot at. So. And I need the ability for people to have latitude around cropping and using and sharing and dynamic range is important. Right. So at this end. And so there are situations where it matters, but that's only because these are high end commercial jobs where that stuff matters. [00:55:33] Speaker C: Well, they're paying the coin for the outcome. That's it. [00:55:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:36] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:37] Speaker C: And as you can see here, you're scanning the car with the light. Now, I've seen you do this in person when we were at BFOP and you were taking shots of Kim. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:47] Speaker C: Who was wearing a stunning 70s outfit. [00:55:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:50] Speaker C: You know, and it just looked perfect for the light painting you were doing. It was. The stockings she was wearing were kind of rainbow stripe and they kind of, they glowed almost under the long bulb exposure. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:03] Speaker C: So what we can see here is you. [00:56:04] Speaker B: Sorry, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to drop. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:56:07] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. And Great. [00:56:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:09] Speaker A: So Comic Con 25, let's make a light painting booth. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Yep. I'll reach out to you. Thanks. [00:56:16] Speaker C: All right, see you again. Thanks for your time, you guys. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Thank you. Bye. [00:56:22] Speaker C: Yeah, watching you and Kim, you know, paint each other with light and, and you were lit up with a projector holding a dinky old piece of Perspex that was. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:35] Speaker C: Reflecting the light and it was falling on your face on one side of your body. And you, you had your face smooshed up quite literally against the Perspex, like It was just, it was very inspirational to see. And like your Jetta shots, there was a big screen for us and we could see every moment. You know, once you, once you used your remote to close the shutter. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:57] Speaker C: And this image processed and appeared. It was like, oh, wow. Like, you know, but sitting in the room, it was, it was quite fascinating because the room was pitch black. It was pitch black as it could be for an old church building. And the thing, the thing with what. [00:57:11] Speaker A: Was beautiful about that experience with Kim is. And the reason we did that is that we, we wanted to do this thing and, and show people what. [00:57:22] Speaker D: And. [00:57:22] Speaker A: And this was the idea around my. The whole beef up thing. For me this year I do a day workshop and then I do a workshop, and the day workshop is always in a darkened building and then the night one is either in the forest or. We did cars this year. [00:57:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:35] Speaker A: But what I decided to do with my workshop this year is people came into the room and you saw a touch of this. People came into the room. And what I did is I decided this year to take three nuggets of ideas that I have and three nuggets of ideas that I have, start to form them, and then take them to be FOP for the next step. So that. And so when people came into the room, I said, okay, here's three ideas that I have that I've started working on. What I want you to see now is the next step. And the reason I did that was so they could see what my brain was doing because I talked through it, see that they don't always work. And one of them didn't. It was like it was what we think of as a failure. But to see me sort of breathing life into an idea rather than turning up with a fully formed thing, that's just. They're just going to go, well, I'm never going to be able to do that. And so if people get visibility on the way these things build, it can make them go, wow, okay. Yeah, right. So this guy. It's hard for Dennis too. Dennis struggles to do this thing and he's seen shots that were really sketchy and blurry and out of focus. And now they are, you know, and, and here's something that kind of looks. Looks formed and, and, and one of the things I did at. One of the things I did at BFOP this year is I'm working on this idea of body movement. Body movement in. In long exposure that I'm taking into the water, but I'm forming it out of the water. And I got to show people that. And that, that was quite mind blowing for people. Yeah, that one. [00:59:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Now I do want to share a couple more of your images while we're on the subject. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we can chat about them for sure. [00:59:25] Speaker C: I love most, most importantly, the ball of light work. Yes. And you've been to some extreme locations to, to work on this portfolio. Let me just bring it up here. Where did I put it? The ball of light. [00:59:40] Speaker A: While you're doing that, I'll, I'll, I'll go back to in, in the Ball of Light documentary, which is on the website. I, I, at the end of the documentary, I say the words, who knows where the ball of light is going to turn up next? Maybe here, here, here. And up at that stage, I'd only ever played around on my local beach or in the thing. And I never dreamed, and not in my wildest dreams that I think that, that I would take this thing to the places I have. It has just been a quite a remarkable journey so far. [01:00:19] Speaker C: Now I want to have a look at this image here and talk about this one. Ah, I think this is one of my favorite images from your collection. This is Easter Island. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. That's fascinating that this one has connected with you. That's. [01:00:31] Speaker C: Well, I have, I'm fascinated by Easter Island. I don't know nearly enough about it, so I will make that statement up front. I'm fascinated by it. I really haven't looked into it a lot and I would love to go there to photograph, but I think it's complicated. Yeah, yeah. [01:00:48] Speaker A: I'll tell you a bit about the trip. [01:00:50] Speaker C: All right, we'll get to that. But I think the magic of, of this space is a perfect backdrop for the sort of work that you do with the light painting. There's, it adds this almost otherworldly sci fi. Not, not trying to cheapify it. [01:01:07] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [01:01:09] Speaker C: This science fiction clash of old and new. [01:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:14] Speaker C: Because there's so much about the old that we don't understand still. [01:01:16] Speaker A: Oh, you're giving me. There are goosebumps. [01:01:20] Speaker C: I am. [01:01:20] Speaker A: With what you just said. That's amazing. [01:01:23] Speaker C: So tell me about your Easter island experience. Because I think Easter island is like me. It's kind of like it's on the bucket list. I don't know enough about it or how to get there or whether it's even possible. Tell me about, tell us about your experience. [01:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that. This is so good. I'm so pleased you brought this up because there's a couple of Things. The first one is I have. I have like a solid 10 incredible trips I've done in my life that I want to sit down in my studio here one day in a seat with a cup of coffee and just tell the story. Because again, you know, the image we're looking at here is. It's, It's. It's all the things that it is, right? It's. What is this? It's a thing. It's like you say, it's this. It's this sort of juxtaposition of literally ancient and something surreal that we try to figure out what is going on. Yet for me, when I look at this image like I was talking about before, there are layers of depth. And I'll tell you how it came about. So I was an Olympus visionary, technically an Olympus visionary for a long time. I am still a massive Olympus advocate. I still use their gear a lot. [01:02:40] Speaker C: So a visionary is like an ambassador. [01:02:42] Speaker A: It is the ambassador. And they had a bit of a change and things changed a bit. But Olympus were incredible to me. They were. And it's important. This is really. I'll give you an example. I haven't been an Olympus visionary now for two or three years. I'm setting up this rig behind me here for this. For this thing I'm doing. I messaged Aaron at Olympus and I said, mate, I've got a T. Five minutes later he's back on the phone to me, right? And we're figuring this thing out. Amazing company. But what they did one time is they said, okay, then you make all this amazing content for us. We would love you to make a tutorial on the live composite feature of the new EM1 mark 2. I think was. How would you feel about doing that? I said, of course, I would love to make a tutorial. And they said, yeah, but we're ready to step it up. You do this thing, what do you reckon? Try and design something for us that is a bit sort of different. And I. So I said to them, I said, well, how different? What are we talking? Different budget or different. They said, just come back to us with something. So straight away I just went, this is the old salesman and me coming out. I went straight to my desk and I googled what is the most remote place in the world. Enter. And it came back with some sort of obscure things. But Easter island popped up and straight away I was like you. I was like, wow, that is actually. This is a cool story and thank you for giving me the space to tell it. [01:04:09] Speaker C: No, that's okay. [01:04:10] Speaker A: Straight away I was like, okay, this place is wild. It's a long way away. It is extremely. Let's do it. So I put this proposal together, I did a budget and I sent it back to Olympus and they went perfect. [01:04:24] Speaker C: I was like, oh, I should have asked for more. [01:04:29] Speaker A: But the funny thing is there was no more. Like they had a budget anyway, so I thought, okay. So I started designing this tutorial series, did some study on Easter Island. I needed an assistant. So my wife came with me and which she very, very rarely does. So it was a buzz for us to. And she. And not because we. For only for the reason that she doesn't come around light painting trips, because she just ends up sitting around at night while I'm out playing and then waiting for me to wake up in the morning. But she came along the. The latam flight. We had this wild weight limit of gear. It was 100 kilos. So have a guess how much gear we took. 100 kilos on the button. And so we had. Because we were shooting tutorials, I needed lighting gear, video gear, sound gear. Yeah, I didn't really know what to experience. It's this epic flight. So you go Adelaide, Melbourne, Santiago. So you fly over the top of Easter island and then six hours back. Easter island is this tiny little rock. It's 20 miles long in the middle of nowhere. It is a remarkable thing. We arrived there and now I had done a lot of research and the challenge with light painting is that we always need to be photographing these things at night and all of the awesome places that you want to light paint. So I've been to Angkor Wat, I've been to, you know, some places in India. All these places are great ideas, but you can't go in there at night. They. They tend to be World Heritage sites, so they're protected to within an inch of their life. [01:06:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:06:17] Speaker A: So you roll up to these places with the best of intentions. Now if you look at an Easter island map, it's there. There's one map that exists and it shows you where all of the, all of the Moai are on the island. And I was like, amazing. I'm going to go to these places and I'm gonna. Yeah, this, it. It's a. It's an incredibly tiny place. Now. It's. There's about 5,000 people there. [01:06:43] Speaker C: Oh really? [01:06:44] Speaker A: If you click on the satellite map down there, yeah. You'll see is a quite a big town and there's about 5,000 people there. And the reason that tourism got crazy on the island is that it became a landing spot. If you, if you zoom into the bottom left hand corner there, you'll see there is a giant Runway. So that Runway is huge. And the reason it's there is because it was a space shuttle emergency landing place. It was right away. Yeah. So it was right on the flight line of the shuttle. [01:07:22] Speaker C: Oh, that's so typical. [01:07:23] Speaker A: The US government built this Runway and it was somewhere the shuttle could land if they had a problem. So all of a sudden they could land giant planes there. But so I looked at this map of where all the Moai are. We arrived there, I went straight to the tourism place to, we hired our car and we started driving around to all of the Moai locations. And the very first one I went to, I walked over and I was like, where is the moai? And it's lying face down in the, in the dirt and covered in grass. It's just this lump of rock. Yet on the map it shows the moai standing there. Long story short, you come to realize that the only places the moai are that they're standing and, and the classic ones that you would look at are all behind stone fences and they close at sunset. So a mild sense of panic came in and I will circle back to. People might be thinking, well duh, of course you know, or surely you would have known that before you went. But we'll come back to that. But I found one in town that was there present, you could be around it. There was no gates, there was no fence and I made some work there. But as I was setting up, this guy turns up and I've got my lights on and I'm mucking around. A guy, a local Rapa Nui man comes. So there's the Chileans and the Rapa Nui. Now the Rapa Nui are the, are the indigenous people of the island. They're pacific island people I have a deep connection with because I grew up in Auckland. So I recognized their faces, their language, their tone. But then there's the Chileans who are the oppressors. The they, yeah, that. Anyway, now you turn up there and you go to the information center and the Chilean people are very keen for you to be at these places working, taking images, sharing images. This guy comes up to me and he says, what are you doing? And I said I'm making some photos. And he said, no, no, no, no, no you're not. And I said, no, no. The guy at the guy at the information center said that this I could be here. And he said, I don't care what they say. Do you need to get out of here right now? Have some respect. The, the more I need to sleep. Oh, no, forever. I've been planning this thing for months. Turn up with 100 kilos of gear and, and the one moai that I can work at is not. It's no more. And I, look, I, and I, I just said, I said to him, I said, look, let's just take a breath, this pause. And I said to him, I said, look, I'm a, I have a history with Polynesian people. I lived on Rarotonga for six months. I'm from Auckland. I understand. And we started having a chat about, you know, the cultural sensitivity of the moai. There's a line literally that you can't step over onto a part that's not obvious. I said, I understood that. And then what I did is I said, look, I have a deep connection with the moai and I did this. I showed him that tattoo of the moai and. [01:10:43] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Yep. [01:10:44] Speaker A: So that's a tattoo. And he looks at it and he. [01:10:46] Speaker C: Goes, mine's of Super Mario, but you. [01:10:48] Speaker A: Know, yeah, he looks at this tattoo of the moai on my arm and he goes, what, Eddie? Anyway, long, five minutes later he's like, oh. He said, you can be here as much as you like. So I got to make some work around this moai. But then I ended up, yeah, I ended up at a few different places around the island that you normally wouldn't think of. And I'll tell you, I tell you how that happened, Greg. And this is a really important thing for people that do any photography and going to places that you, you are hard or shouldn't be. The reason I ended up making the work that I did in the places I did is because I was respectful. I paused and listened to the local people. Yeah. About why the place was. Why is this important to you? Why are you so protective of it? What are the things that are important? This is what I do and why I do it. And you, and you have these conversations with people and it's interesting, we were talking about cosplay and gaming before. What I do is I am never the main character. [01:11:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:59] Speaker A: No one more important on the island of, of of of of Rapa Nui or Israel island than the Rapa Nui people. They are, they have spent their entire existence being brutalized, enslaved, treated like they are second class citizens in their own country. And so if you turn up and you treat them like there is no one more important and have some bloody respect. It is wild, the different things that you can do. So one of the things you end up doing is making light painting images around Moai. And it was extraordinary, mate. [01:12:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:39] Speaker A: There is this feeling that happens when you're in this place, you know, that they, they're only. They're only 800 years old. But whether it's Easter island or Angkor Wat or all of these amazing places, I spend. I love to spend time just pausing and really feeling a place. Like, I really want to know what is special about these moai. And you learn, so you do your research, you spend time with them, and then what happens is I then have the opportunity to insert my energy into the space. Yeah, what happened is, what you talk about is I'm like, making these really freaky things around these ancient places. And so we came away from the island. It wasn't until the last two days that I actually got to make the hero images because it just took that time to get to know the place and the people. And. [01:13:43] Speaker C: Well, I think like we talked about before, it's. That's. That's more about the image is the end outcome. And it's beautiful. Here's another one here, you know, and it's, it's, it's captivating, it's mesmerizing. But for you, the experience is all. You know, we talk about metadata in, in. In RAW files, but there's, there's this kind of emotional data and, you know, the data that captures your. Your journey. I don't want to use spiritual data because I think that's a bit wanky, but you know what I mean? Like, there's this other layer to the file. No, no, no, no. Isn't tangible. [01:14:25] Speaker A: Look, lean into that idea, you know, lean into that idea of there being a spiritual component to it. You know, I think, I think. And this is. Looking at this image here, because this is really interesting. I look at this now and I go, what I would have loved to have done is taken that ball of light and inserted it between the two moai. But those little rocks that are on the ground in front of the moai. [01:14:53] Speaker C: Yeah, there is. [01:14:54] Speaker A: Tourists walk up onto those rocks all the time. That is the place where you don't walk. He. The guy was like. He was worried I'd walk up there. So where the ball of light is, that's the closest I can get it. Right. But when I look at this, I think of him. There is. There is the history of the Rapanui people and the island, which is deep, but Here's a couple of things. That blue light that is on the edge of it, that is a piece of gel that was given to me by a. A light painter that I absolutely adore, revere, and is one of my great inspirations. A gentleman by the name of Polite. Now, he gave me that blue gel because it's a gel that he inserts into him in images all the time. And so that is a bit of gel around a torch that is on a light stand that is about 20 meters out in the ocean. So I was walking out into the ocean up to my hip in the water to set it up far enough away to be able to put that light on it. So it took me about an hour to get that right. So there's a part. There's a part of Politith, someone I respect in that image. Yeah, the orange light that is on the side of the moai is a tool that's made by another great friend of mine. So, you know, there's all these elements in this image that means something to me that is the spiritual component to it is that energy of all those things. [01:16:20] Speaker C: And, yeah, I've always likened. I've always likened my. We're going to jump to comments in a second because I think the. The boys are ready to join us from Lucky Straps. But I've always likened my journeys to Japan as a spiritual exploration in that I'm not spiritual in the typical religious sense at all. I'm quite the opposite. But I think more. It was. It was more the experience for me. And documenting that meant so much more than just the images I put on Instagram, you know? [01:16:53] Speaker A: You know, the other. There's something. Something that. And whether we. Whether we end up talking about duality or not, duality is a body of work I made. In 2022, all of my social media was hacked and deleted. Yeah, I remember you saying, yeah, it's a fascinating. It's something. I think people might be interested in hearing about this because it's something I don't talk about a lot. It's still. It's really interesting. But I made a body of work across a year that was probably has. If we think about this idea of there being a spiritual component or a connection, like a deep connection to a piece of work, this is probably it for me. And it was the first time I ever really made any work in that way, where I went, okay, I want to tell a story of. I want to tell the story of. First, take an idea that I think will convey an experience I had into images and insert it and then print it and present it in an actual exhibition, like for the first time ever. And I. Late in. In relative terms, it was only 18 months ago, but what I learned in that year was firstly the how. How. How important social media actually is to life. But more importantly, what that situation with my social media taught me, helped me experience was what it feels like and what it means to make a body of work that actually has meaning, tells a story and all those things. And more and more now when I think about the next phase of my photography, when I go. When I go to these. Easter island was a bit like this is trying to take that. Not idea, but my normal work, whether it's on the beach, in the water, in the forest and approach it in that way. Yeah, yeah. And you could be doing street photography in Japan and still have that thing. [01:19:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Most definitely, yeah. [01:19:16] Speaker A: Hurricane. [01:19:17] Speaker C: Let's jump to some comments and then we'll see if. If Jim and Justin are around. First of all. Hey, guys. Rome Romeo. [01:19:28] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Wow. [01:19:29] Speaker C: From Portugal here. [01:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I recognize that name. It's amazing. [01:19:33] Speaker C: There you go. We've got David Mascara from California. G'day, David. Welcome to the show. I don't know who this idiot is. Good morning, legends. It might be the boss and Dave Digi. Frog. Just in time. Morning, sir. Yeah, thanks, Dave. I've been here for bloody an hour and a half. You haven't said. Justin replies. Frog, how are you? I think these boys should get a room. Here's Jim and Dave's back saying there's a bit of a bromance going between Dave and Justin. I think pumped. Good show in progress here. Love this. Oh, finally some recognition for my hard effort. I'm gonna. I'm gonna jump on to Justin's here. [01:20:20] Speaker A: Hey. [01:20:21] Speaker C: Live from Vietnam. [01:20:22] Speaker A: Here he is. [01:20:23] Speaker D: Good morning. [01:20:25] Speaker C: How are you? [01:20:26] Speaker D: I'm pretty good. Yeah, Pretty good. How you guys? [01:20:33] Speaker C: And here's Jim. Good morning, Jim. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Hey. G'day, Jim. How are you? [01:20:38] Speaker D: Good, how are you? [01:20:39] Speaker A: I realized that I have made an egregious error when it. When it said, do I want to put anything under my name? I forgot to put anything. So we can change it. [01:20:48] Speaker D: Hang on. [01:20:49] Speaker A: What I would have written, let's put. [01:20:50] Speaker D: Something fun there now. [01:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't even know. I don't even. I don't really have a label. [01:20:57] Speaker D: No labels. [01:20:58] Speaker A: No labels. [01:20:59] Speaker C: No, I don't like labels either. [01:21:00] Speaker A: Troublemaker. [01:21:01] Speaker C: All the kids these days. Ah, there we go. [01:21:06] Speaker A: You're very kind. You're very. [01:21:10] Speaker C: Dave did issue an apology. I will accept it. I was engrossed in Dennis's work. Sorry, gc. Love you, too. I miss you already. We've had a star studded cast on today. Ian's had to jump off. He's. He's got other responsibilities. But welcome. Justin from Vietnam. Not from Vietnam, but. And Jim from Bendigo. [01:21:33] Speaker D: Not from Bendigo, but in Bendigo. Yeah. [01:21:36] Speaker C: Where are you from, Jim? [01:21:38] Speaker D: The other side of Melbourne. [01:21:40] Speaker C: Okay. [01:21:41] Speaker D: I'll play in Bendigo now, though. [01:21:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd stick with Bendigo, too. [01:21:44] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:21:45] Speaker A: You know, not wanting a thought just popped into my head that I just want to. Just because it won't come out, you know, when we think about light painting, people. So I'm a commercial photographer, filmmaker, street photographer, all that stuff. Light painting is certainly a component of it. But here's an interesting thing, because light painting came to me first before I became any of these other things. I. Light painting makes me a better photographer. And I go back to something we talked about before is because light painting is all highlights and shadows, aggressively at either end. I learned to see light really early. And I think if I'm doing a corporate portrait at a uni or whatever, it always. Yeah, I see. I learned to see light, and I think that's really interesting. Anyway, I'll. [01:22:43] Speaker C: No, no, no. It's a really good point. And I found that too, as I matured in my photography, that I learned to see and read light and develop an internal sundial, especially as a street photographer, that I know where the sun is. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, that's the one. [01:22:58] Speaker C: Now let's hear from the boss. [01:23:00] Speaker D: Well, I was just going to ask Dennis on. Have you guys talked about what you do beyond light painting? Have you. Have you guys cultivate the business side of your photography? Like how you pay the bills? Does that come up? [01:23:12] Speaker C: It was money with you. It's always money. [01:23:14] Speaker D: I like to hear how people. [01:23:16] Speaker A: It's one of the things that blew me away, things that always blows me away about being in India is how is it possible in a country with 1,400 million people? No matter where I am, the Internet speed is hyper fast. Always. Always. Yeah, it's insane. [01:23:36] Speaker C: Go on, Justin, ask your question. [01:23:38] Speaker D: Well, I just wanted to hear more about your business, the business side of things, how you pay the bills, Dennis, like when it comes to photography. You said light. Can you not hear me very well? [01:23:50] Speaker C: No, I can hear you. [01:23:51] Speaker D: I can hear you. [01:23:52] Speaker C: Dennis, can you hear Justin? [01:23:55] Speaker A: No. [01:23:56] Speaker C: Oh, okay, I'll translate. [01:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:58] Speaker D: Can you translate Greek? [01:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Because Justin's From Vietnam. Justin. Sorry Dennis. Justin wants to know what you know, how do you. The business side of the. Of light painting, how does that pay the bills? [01:24:13] Speaker A: Amazing. That's a great question and something that I don't talk about much or get asked very often. And again, like I said at the beginning, there is. I'm a completely open book and I think, I think a really interesting way to describe it is this. Now I am getting little bits and bobs coming through there, but I'll try and ignore that. [01:24:37] Speaker C: That's just his normal cadence. [01:24:41] Speaker A: So look, it's been an interesting journey for me as far as the business of light painting goes and I'll go through it reasonably quickly. But I think something that is. I'll start with the middle of it and that is Covid because Covid pre. There's for me and my light painting business as such, there was pre and post Covid. So how does my income come in? So since I have been a been writing invoices in photography pre Covid. 50% of my income was from commercial work and 50% from light painting. And the commercial work was fundamentally video work and stills work and education, food, pretty standard stuff. And I have a business partner and a company, a partnership that works over there. And then quite separate from that was the light painting. And the income from light painting was made up of workshops. So teaching photography, manufacturing and selling light painting tools. So the devices we use for doing light painting and then commercial work and those three pre Covid were pretty balanced. So workshops were massive for me. I was doing a huge amount of workshops, often at all sorts of different levels. So $99 workshops for people that have just never even had a go, who don't even have a camera, going to schools, doing that sort of thing. And then some sort of high end workshops here in Australia and internationally at a kind of a different level. And they were amazing. I love it. Very, very, very high energy, very, very complicated because you need a lot of equipment. So there's a lot of light painting tools. So they were quite technical. And then there was. So yeah, workshops, the light painting tools. So the ball of light tool, the tool that makes the orb. I manufactured and sold over 1500 of those and about 4000 of the heads all made by hand. Every hole, every solder in this workshop. So I manufactured them all myself. But then a whole variety of stuff, the scanners that I use for doing portraits, like all of that sort of thing. And that was a solid business, it never made a profit. And that was intentional because I wanted to make the tools accessible to people. So yeah, it never really made a profit, but it helped fund a lot of different things then fine art. So I sold a bit of art, not a lot. It's complicated space and then commercial light painting. So engaging people wanting to either license images commercially or me to use light painting to add to a product or a thing. [01:27:30] Speaker C: Now like with the F1 in Jeddah. [01:27:32] Speaker A: Formula One, a bit of corporate stuff, that sort of thing. But. And so leading into Covid, so 2017, 1819, it was just, it was getting really good, it was busy. And then I leased a big building down here in Port Adelaide and built a gallery. So I was going to have a gallery space. I live in this beautiful part of Adelaide. And then of course Covid, right, boom. It was wild. So I had just leased this building, put a lot of coin into this gallery that kind of fell apart. The light painting tool thing got awkward because it was, it was awkward. The commercial work was drying up because of course the universities aren't working. So what I did is I kind of dialed everything back and I re. So I got rid of the building, got rid of the lease, all that sort of thing. Eventually I fought with it for a little while and really where the income was coming from mainly was selling the light painting tools. And recently so that whole the business of light painting post Covid changed quite dramatically where it was. I didn't need as much income because the building was gone. And I kind of refocused a bit on what mattered around that stuff. But then a thing happened and this is really important thing for people to hear and I think is a long winded answer to this question. I woke up one morning, I used to give presentations to groups of creatives about marketing creative businesses. And I used to give people a thought experiment and it was this, and I think it's still relevant today. If you are a commercial photographer or photographer of any type where income is your main thing. I would give people a thought experiment and it was this. What would happen if you woke up tomorrow morning and Meta had burnt down? No Facebook, no Instagram, do you still have a photography business or. And you can insert this into any type of business and people would go, yeah, of course I do, yeah. And I go, right, so I'm going to ask the question again. Let's think about it seriously. If you woke up tomorrow morning and social media was not an avenue to market your business, would you still have a business? How does your website look? How does your email database look? All these things? Well, I Walked out of a building one morning and looked at my phone and there was an email on my phone that said, we've successfully changed your password on your social media. And it looked like spam, because that's what it looks like. And as I got in the car, I was like, that feels different to me. Got back to the studio, gone. No Facebook, no Instagram. And that was the predominant way that I marketed my. All of my things, my workshops. Because back then, and I'm talking only three years ago, it was still a great tool. If I was doing a workshop in Madrid, I could do a piece of marketing material and focus it on Madrid, the light painting tools. And it was gone. And I was spending quite a significant amount of money with Meta in marketing. And I promise you there is not an avenue. We tried to get a hold of them to bring it back and it was gone. And so I woke up one morning and answered my own question. Do you still have a business? And I did have a solid website. I had a very good email database. But my creative life changed in an instant. It was wild learning that. And so what happened is that income changed. In answer to your question, Justin, that changed quite a bit. I had to very quickly pivot. I know this is a cliche thing. Everyone in the photography world is an entrepreneur until they need to be an entrepreneur. And what the difference between that is when the shit hits the fan, how do you deal with. And so I dealt with it and what I did is I decided to take a year off social media and really reflect on what it was, why I needed it, and what I ended up doing was making a body of work and doing a proper. Learned how to be an artist. I made a body of work and then the first time anyone saw it was in an exhibition. And is this duality we're talking about duality. Yeah. And it was. [01:32:09] Speaker C: Just bring up some of the images while you're talking. [01:32:11] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah. So on the website is actually a video where I do a full walkthrough of the exhibition. It was. It was pretty wild. And the idea. I'll share. I'll share what the idea is, so I'll give you an example. So if we click on the top left one with the. There with the. Yeah, that one there. And this is a very special image to me and I think it represents the idea well. That one there. No, next one down. That one. There you go. [01:32:36] Speaker C: That one. [01:32:40] Speaker A: Where the mouse is now. That's the one. Yeah. So if you click on that. [01:32:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not expanding Anymore. [01:32:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's okay. Well, you people can see. I need to sort that website out, but you people can see. So the idea of the, the idea of the exhibition is this. And people can go look it on the website and I walk through the show. But in this world of social media, right, you, we, everybody, I decide what you see of me. So you go onto my Instagram or whatever and you see me. You see who I am, what I do, the work I make, the life I live. But the reality, the brutal reality is it's only what I choose for you to see. So you see this very in focus, sharp representation of me, who I am, what I do. The reality is that in the background behind that screen, out of focus, that's difficult and murky to see. Is this real me or the real us? And I did this. I spent a period of time reflecting on what was it that I was allowing people to see of me. And the reality is, for me, in my life, and I. And I'm brutally honest about this, and I. And I was during the creation and the aftermath of duality is the part of my life that you don't see is a complete and utter disaster. Well, not disaster, that's not true. But it is complicated. I have severe mental health issues. I have a lot of personal issues. Business is hard. Life was hard at the time when I was making it post Covid. And that is the stuff that you don't see. And what I was trying to represent in this body of work was that. So I developed a technique that again, I stand on the shoulders of giants. That the part of the technique. So people that I respect and love had been using these techniques. And I developed this technique that I show very clearly in the video where I could do these light painting images that were partly out of focus and partly soft and then partly super sharp and clear. And that was what I made here. And it was wild. I learned how to be an artist. I learned how to really lean into work. There were 4,900 images in the collection that I selected 13 from. And at the end of it, yeah. And so the final element to the answer to your question, Justin, in November 2024, how does the business of light painting look? For me, it looks very different. I no longer sell light painting tools like zero. That was a very difficult decision to make. I. The majority of the income into my light painting business comes from doing corporate stuff. So Formula one. This year I've been working with a couple of other companies on some sort of private stuff. I still sell Quite a bit of art. And really my focus now over the next five years with my light painting is to do more hiring stuff outside of Australia because we. It's complicated here now, business wise and art wise. But I am also, and this is. I've only just started talking about this. I am formally studying to become a counselor, so a therapist. And so in January 26th is the goal to be seeing my first clients. But I am taking my light painting and my photography and am going to be formalizing it as a form of art therapy, which is what it's been for me over the years. [01:36:40] Speaker C: And that's amazing. [01:36:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that there is a. Photography saved my life 15 years ago. If I had not discovered photography and light painting. That was a really, really core part of what stopped me killing myself. Both. Yeah. And, and what I want to do now is help hold space for other people. Like it, like space was held for me. And I truly believe that photography can be a really beautiful part of the maintenance of mental health in a time where, where we are desperate for that. And so that in the final part, in answer to your question, light painting will be a huge part of it and that in reality that, that's part of the business. That was a very long answer to quite a simple question. [01:37:36] Speaker C: It was a beautiful answer. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. [01:37:40] Speaker D: That's why that goes for two hours so we can have beautiful. [01:37:44] Speaker A: Look, I'm a massive fan of long form. Long form. The other thing as well, here's an interesting thing. So I have a pretty comprehensive YouTube channel and I, you know that this is in this room is where I make a lot of, a lot of that content and out in, in the field. I intentionally don't monetize my YouTube channel at all. It. I don't. I've got some videos on there that have had hundred thousand plus views. I think that one might be monetized. But it's, it's. It's a myth that you make money from YouTube. I intentionally do not monetize any of my videos and I never make a cent off the channel. But that is a massive part of what I do. It's a beautiful way to connect with people and share that stuff. [01:38:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. [01:38:33] Speaker D: So why not? This is a completely tangent. Why not monetize them even though it'll be cents and dollars that you get from them. Not, you know, as you say, it's not, not big money. But why not monetize them anyway? Because I'm under the impression YouTube slammed the ads in there. Regardless as to whether you. [01:38:53] Speaker A: It's really interesting. Hey, it's. It's interesting. The, The. I. Yes, they do. But from what I understand, the volume of them is different. The interaction someone has with my videos is certainly different than now full. Let's say, for argument's sake, one day my YouTube channel blew up. In my mind, it does. The fact, like, If I get 2 or 300 views on a video, I'm wrapped like, it's a big deal for me. It means I've connected with two or 300 people. [01:39:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:39:28] Speaker A: If one day it. Let's say one day all of a sudden. And. And I do have a video that's had 140,000 views or something. Something like that. Like that. Some of them do get some pretty good traction. I'm also. I also know exactly what I need to do on them to get traction. I'm not interested in making those videos. But if one day my YouTube channel went completely insane because I was making videos that were about, like, proper stuff, I. I want to make videos that inspire people to go and have a go, understand what is really important, all those things. And eventually my goal is to be leaning into this idea of the connection of mental health and photography. And, you know, Greg and I were talking before this word spirituality. I deeply believe that, for me, anyway, there is this connection between whatever it is you want it to be. Would I monetize the channel? Hell yes, I would. If I. If there was a chance for me to pull enough money that it was that that became my main avenue for sharing good news, I. I would. But unfortunately, and you guys know this, and I think most people know this, that, that it's a bit of a myth that anyone makes a lot ofmoney on YouTube, you need to be getting millions and millions of people connecting with your YouTube account to make money or do sponsorship. And I don't. And I, And, And I. For me, I'm. The fact I've got 67 cameras in my lightroom catalog is. I, I don't. I just want to use everything. I don't really interest in sponsorship, apart from lucky straps, of course. I mean. [01:41:11] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. That's right. [01:41:13] Speaker A: Your connection to your beautiful. I saw them. I saw. [01:41:20] Speaker B: I. [01:41:20] Speaker A: Well, let's. I mean, I'm happy to share that. When you handed me that strap in at B5, it was very, very, very nice. That is a. Yeah. What a beautiful product. You guys have done a really nice job on that. And full disclosure, I wasn't handed one to keep I don't own one. [01:41:40] Speaker D: We can arrange that. [01:41:41] Speaker C: Yeah, we'll take care of it, don't worry. I know I got a connection back of the truck kind of stuff. Did you. Did you boys have any other questions for Dennis before we move into kind of looking at Justin's efforts? [01:42:00] Speaker D: Probably, probably a ton. But I'm mindful of the time, so. So maybe we'll have to do a part two look. [01:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah, look, how about. How about we do this? I. I can. I'm conscious that we're going to move, move away from this space here. And so if I. If I often think when I do these things is, what can I. What can I say or do or deliver that will. That someone watching this will just. I just want people to just take a breath, lean back and just think about a thing. And so I'm just forming this in my head. I've not made any notes or anything, but I think that, you know, we were talking before about this sort of focus that exists around gear and all that stuff, and we can have gear conversations till the cows come home. But I really, really hope that what people do when they look at my work or they look at what I do or how I do things is just remember, just to pause, sit back and have a really good, hard think about why it is that they are putting a memory card into their camera, pressing the button and making an image. You know, is it to put onto social media and gain traction? Is it to share with a private group, to connect with other people? There's all these reasons that we do it, but never, never more than ever has it been more important to hear the words that we should never use social media as a guide as to whether our work is good or bad. [01:43:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:43:51] Speaker A: There has never been a more powerful, powerful monster that exists in our society than the algorithms that drive social media to draw you in and, and make you believe what is and isn't good. If you make an image that genuinely gives you goosebumps when you look at it on the back of the camera and when you reflect on it, you are making good work. Don't do. Not. Leaving social media truly made me decide to not give a insert f word about whether anyone likes anything or I do. Stopping making tools was a big one because I didn't need anyone to look at my work and go, oh, I can do that buy now. I don't care if you like what I do. I don't give a. And you shouldn't either. [01:44:40] Speaker B: There we are. [01:44:41] Speaker A: Insert done. [01:44:42] Speaker C: You can say it's okay. [01:44:46] Speaker A: Well. Okay, mate. I don't give a. [01:44:49] Speaker C: There we go. Better. [01:44:54] Speaker A: If you like what I do. I don't. I don't care. And I've never made better work because of that. [01:45:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:45:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:45:02] Speaker A: That is somewhere I would love to go and make work. [01:45:06] Speaker D: You. You would love it. You would love it. I'd love to see the images that you would come back with. It's been. It's been amazing. Yeah. I'm running around with the camera every day. It's not a. I'm not. It's not a photography trip that I'm here for. It's, you know, it's a holiday, but every time I leave the hotel, I've been taking the camera and taking tons of photos, lots of photos that aren't even very good. But I'm just. What's the word? It's like sensory overload. It's just like new and different visual things that I want to take photos of. Even though, like, the light's not great and whatever, I'm just like, oh, that's cool. I've never seen that. That's. [01:45:49] Speaker C: I'm so proud of you. Sincere. I'm being sincere. I am. Because I know. No, no, because I know. You know, and having. Having watched you work, but also watching your daily challenges, how much you expressed and, you know, you. Your internal dialogue was external as well, about how you would see a shot and the light's not good and. And, you know, you would. You would kind of. It would stop you almost from taking the shot sometimes watching those videos of you on your challenges. But it's really great to hear, and I mean that quite sincerely because, you know, in this. In the work that I do in street photography, there's. There's a hundred or a thousand things in the frame that aren't right. But it's not about that, you know, it's about documenting the moment and the interaction and something that caught your eye. [01:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:38] Speaker C: That you thought was worth, you know, capturing. Quick, quick input here. Hi from Wales from Keegan the vegan. [01:46:46] Speaker A: Hey, Keegan. [01:46:47] Speaker D: Keegan the Veganator. [01:46:49] Speaker C: Came here from Dennis's Instant Insta Ad. Bit late, but enjoying the chat while I'm working. [01:46:54] Speaker A: I was just up there. I just went up to the uk. It was. Yeah. What a stunning island. [01:47:01] Speaker D: Yeah, it's on the list for sure. [01:47:03] Speaker A: Well, it's the first time I've ever. It's the first time I've ever felt a sense of place. Like I. I've. My grandmother was born in Bath and I've. When you when you grow up in the Antipodes, you don't have a history. It was the first time I ever felt a real connection to any sort of personal history, and it was a nice feeling. [01:47:21] Speaker D: Oh, that's awesome. [01:47:22] Speaker C: Very nice. Now, I want to jump to change topic a little bit, but I want. Dennis, please. We value your input. Yeah, we're going to critique Justin. Yeah, we're doing the thing. [01:47:37] Speaker D: Does Dennis know that I'm doing what I'm doing each week? [01:47:43] Speaker A: I'm embarrassed to say I've not met my. [01:47:48] Speaker C: I don't know what I was talking about either, so don't worry. [01:47:50] Speaker D: So this started from. This started. This is the third week on a whim. A few weeks ago, I decided I was going to start submitting. This was after bfop. I did the photo essay workshop with Chris. [01:48:07] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. [01:48:10] Speaker D: Oh, my God. Yeah. [01:48:12] Speaker A: You're a very lucky man. You're very lucky. [01:48:15] Speaker D: It was a great workshop. [01:48:17] Speaker C: Well, we'll have Chris joining us on the podcast early next year. [01:48:20] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Yeah. [01:48:22] Speaker D: So anyway, coming from that, I decided out of nowhere that I was going to start doing a photo essay. Loosely. These aren't photo essays, obviously, like Chris does, but, like, I'm. I'm going to submit a set of 12 images each week on the podcast. [01:48:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:48:41] Speaker D: And so this is week three, so it has to be 12 images. It can't be 11, can't be 13, 12 images. Hopefully some sort of cohesive set of images. But there's no. No set theme or anything like that. So it's more been. I'm trying to uncover the story while I'm shooting them and then editing them down, rather than going out with a specific, you know, theme or story or something like that. And so far, and including this week, they've all been straight out of camera JPEGs, so just as shot, which is why sometimes the horizons are a bit tilted. But that's life in the big world. So this. These are from. Yeah, so far. From Vietnam. But it's. Yeah, it was a quick. Anyway, I won't say anything more than that. You guys can just tear them apart and then we'll. Then I'll tell you about the process. [01:49:35] Speaker C: Is that everyone still see them. [01:49:37] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:49:38] Speaker C: All right, so we're just going to scroll through them, and then we'll come backwards. And am I going in the right order that you intended, Justin? [01:49:48] Speaker D: Perfect. [01:49:49] Speaker A: Wow. Wicked. [01:49:54] Speaker C: Oh, I like that. Oh, that's very cool. [01:49:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really cool. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. These are great. [01:50:10] Speaker C: Man, these are really cool. Is that a kid? [01:50:16] Speaker D: That is a kid. That scene unfolded next to us pretty quickly. He just popped down behind that car and took a big swig out of that bottle and then got out the street. [01:50:29] Speaker C: Wow. What insane capture. [01:50:32] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:50:33] Speaker C: Oh. Oh, that is absolutely sensational. [01:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:50] Speaker C: Oh, wow. That's the last one. [01:50:55] Speaker D: That's the last one. Yeah. Start, start and end on the boat. [01:50:59] Speaker C: Starting in on a boat, which is kind of life in Vietnam. So I'm. I'm. I'm going to take a stab that the theme, the storytelling is about how the people travel, how they commute, how they move through their world. [01:51:13] Speaker D: Yeah. Transport. That's sort of what seemed. I mean, that didn't. That was just while I was shooting. It just unfolded that way when I was looking back through the images. I mean, that. That's just what life is here. But that and. Yeah, just so many that the contrast between new and old and abandoned and. Yeah, that's like. I love that. That's one of the newer boats that I've seen, and it's completely unusable. Trash just left. [01:51:49] Speaker A: You get the feeling that the wooden one at the top is probably handed down four generations and still. [01:51:54] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:51:56] Speaker C: But, yeah, there is. There is a real contrast. [01:51:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:59] Speaker D: Bike. [01:52:00] Speaker A: The juxtaposition of the old bike and the modern car. [01:52:04] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. I love the. You see the fan up the top? [01:52:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's awesome. I love looking at. Looking at these. Yeah, he. That. That is. [01:52:21] Speaker C: What is he doing? Sitting on a chair? Is he like a traffic. [01:52:24] Speaker D: I think it was just traffic. Yeah. Just keeping it. I think that's my favorite show, that one. [01:52:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Very cool. [01:52:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:52:34] Speaker C: This one's wonderful. [01:52:35] Speaker A: These are great, man. [01:52:36] Speaker D: A lot of layers through this one. [01:52:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:52:39] Speaker C: The depth going down the. [01:52:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:40] Speaker D: The street building as well. [01:52:42] Speaker C: And this depth going down. [01:52:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:44] Speaker C: And the depth in here. And there's something going on up here with the lighting. And, you know, what's. [01:52:48] Speaker D: What I. [01:52:48] Speaker A: What. I'm. I'm hearing these things, which is weird. Like, I'm hearing. [01:52:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:52:53] Speaker A: And I'm hearing the cars because I've. I've been lucky enough to go to a place that's as crazy as this. [01:52:58] Speaker C: But. [01:52:58] Speaker A: And. And know that feeling. But. Yeah, that wild man. [01:53:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's very cool. [01:53:05] Speaker A: That is very cool. And these are straight out of the camera, which is very. That's a. That's a neat thing. I think you and I had about monochrome when we were in bright. It's. It's something I'm really looking forward. I. I spend a lot of time with my camera set to black and white. Even though it's shooting raw, just to. I'm trying to teach myself how to see insane. [01:53:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm doing the same thing. [01:53:28] Speaker A: That's beautiful. Wonderful, man. [01:53:29] Speaker C: This is my favorite. [01:53:31] Speaker D: That is. [01:53:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fine too. Quite comfortably. [01:53:34] Speaker D: Yeah, that's good to. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I like that one too. [01:53:38] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, that's. I. That's print worthy. I mean, I think many of them are. But this, I think, captures a moment that's just. [01:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Expression. The. Yeah. [01:53:49] Speaker C: And also we. We don't get it here in Australia. We don't understand that at night, these places really, that's when most of the commerce takes place. [01:53:57] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's interesting here is this is a. This is a very touristy market, this particular one. But once it starts, like raining, it's mostly locals like, just sorting out life, you know, like whether they're packing stuff up or whatever. And. But yeah, this particular market is. There'd be on a. You know, the next street along, when the weather's nice, there'll be people getting photos with. With the women that carry the fruit on the. Getting touristy photos and stuff like that. But then. Yeah, it quickly turns into real life once the. Once the rain comes. [01:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:54:42] Speaker C: And so I'm gonna shut this screen down however I do that. Tell me about what you've learned from that. [01:54:53] Speaker D: Well, first of all, you know, what's really hard is like shooting. Obviously I'm shooting black and white and raw. So I've got a bit of an idea of how. What. What's going to happen after this. But shooting a country that looks like Vietnam in black and white is. You feel like you're giving something up because the colors are so cool and so different to what it's like in Australia that you want to, like, make the most of those colors. The yellow, like textured walls and all that sort of stuff. That's what your eye gets drawn to. But then, like Dennis was saying, when you shoot in monochrome, it then becomes about the composition and the light and the person in the shot or the subject or whatever. So it's. Yeah, it's. I don't know whether it's helped or not. I was one. I was a bit worried that those images were going to fall a bit flat because they're just black and white and Vietnam got so much color, but I don't know. I think they're good, but. [01:55:46] Speaker C: No, I think they're Great. I think. What do you think, Jim? [01:55:49] Speaker D: Yeah, I like it. [01:55:50] Speaker C: It's good. [01:55:51] Speaker A: You like it? [01:55:51] Speaker D: Yeah, I think the sort of the water throwing on the boat and I think it was the second image as well. [01:56:00] Speaker A: Yep. [01:56:00] Speaker D: Yeah, I really like it. I've got a better shot of that. I got two shots. The first one's so tilted like so much that Jim would have roasted me the horizon like, like not so tilted that it's like a Dutch til. A creative one. Just tilted enough. What was this guy doing? And it's those little things that you just don't. You take for granted when you can just jump in lightroom and just go. Yeah, so. So I. What, what my process I think will be. What, what will be interesting. I'm almost treating it like I'm shooting film, but not as David's asking, am I shooting film? No. And I. I have used film before and I. I'll go back to it at some stage, but I go in. I sort of go in bursts where you sort of get into it and you get your process sorted and the lab you use and all that stuff. But I haven't shot it for probably three or four years now and it seems like a daunting task to get all that. Yeah. Get started again. [01:56:53] Speaker C: Price is daunting most of them. [01:56:58] Speaker D: I'm thinking it'll be interesting because I've only looked at the black and white JPEG so far to pull this set out of it. But I'm looking forward to at some stage when I'm ready, going back through the color raws and almost looking at the images from a new perspective, like editing them in color using some of the ones that maybe I didn't get perfect in camera that I can adjust a little bit in lightroom and then have a. Like a second go through of my image shots. [01:57:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:57:28] Speaker C: I think that's a good. I did that with. I think it was my second trip to Japan where I went to Osaka, Hiroshima especially. I shot in Raw. But I did a collection of photos that I made a photo book as you know, because that's what I was doing at the time. And they were just all monochrome and there was so much beautiful color and. But I did. I did a second run that I kind of used in my blog more than anything that was the color stuff. And I think it's. It's good to separate because it does make you look at the same thing in two different ways. Two completely different ways, you know, and it makes you. [01:58:05] Speaker A: And it makes you look at the Scene differently. It's my next India trip is. So I do these super minimalist India where I just take one bag and. And the next. I came back from this last trip having shot a lot of videos, so I had two bodies and. But the next trip I'm taking one body with one fixed lens and. And I'm hoping it's going to be a monochrome body. But I'm. I'm looking forward to taking that. That challenge to the extreme of one. One camera and a few batteries and go do it. And though I think those challenges make us better, when you pair back the gear or the idea and going looking at things monochrome, I think does that as well. Is it challenges us to see things differently. [01:58:55] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's a good point. Justin, how have you felt this trip? You took a lot more gear than when you went to the States. Yeah. So just took the Leica? Yeah. Are you feeling like. Are you just using the one camera mainly, like. Or are you feeling overwhelmed with options? Not overwhelmed with options, but I haven't used all of the gear. It was a little bit of a test. It's interesting. I haven't been reaching for the Leica as much. It is the best camera to carry around for sure and it has the best image quality. But Dennis will probably laugh at me for this. But the auto focus in like using the R5 Mark 2, which is the other body that I brought, the autofocus, I know it so well and it's so reliable. There's shots that I've gotten that in the cities and stuff. Even that. Like, I don't know if I even would have got that shot of that. The woman in the rain with the bike, even though she was completely static. Yep. What's been tricky is as soon as you lift your camera to your eye, people notice you immediately. Like, if you point the camera at them, they look at you and they're like, what are you doing? So you've got to get the shot before they look at you or before something happens. So it nails focus so reliably. I've been reaching for that and it was interesting. I'm like, oh, I don't know. [02:00:23] Speaker A: So here's the thing. I having shot with like in my commercial work, same thing, very high end, very super fancy, fast focusing, all the stuff going to the Q3, it was a very quick learning experience, especially on the street. But here's what I did, mate, and this is fascinating is I went, okay, so what is the thing? Like, why are these renowned or revered as such amazing street cameras. And what you learn is. And again, because it's so new to me is this idea of you double. You don't shoot autofocus is you lean into the idea of. Of the. The way those lenses work and stuff. And so what I did when I. This last trip to India is I decided to spend an entire day shooting manual focus and learning. I wanted to go, okay, like. And. And so, yeah, what you do is you go, okay, well, there's the woman on the bike. [02:01:22] Speaker D: And. [02:01:22] Speaker A: And you kind of know. And it changes when it's that. But, yeah, I started to. I wanted to know if. If you could do it, how it worked and how many keepers I got, if I started to use manual focus and stuff. And at the end of the day, I was getting quite good at it and hitting them all. Because what it does is it removes this whole element of even thinking. All you're doing is looking at the shot and looking for it. Now, shit gets weird at night when you're shooting at F1.7. But what it does is it certainly I was shooting a lot more from the hip and getting keepers, but you're right, it is. It's hard. Hey. [02:02:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:02:09] Speaker D: And it's. I like slowing down with the Lycra a little bit, and I shot a manual focus on Lycra a lot in the States, but it was not street stuff. It was more landscape kind of. It was slower. And I enjoyed that. But, yeah, I. I don't know. I'll have to go back through my images and look at them and try and remember the moments and be like, well, could I have got this with the Q3? [02:02:33] Speaker A: But, well, they were saying there were scenes where I was. As soon, like you say, as soon as it was busy behind where the person was or there were multiple people, I just straight onto manual because it would just. It was complicated. It was. I made the comment earlier when we were talking about gear, Justin, and you and I had this conversation at beef up is. And I'm really honest about all these things, is, yes, the Leica Q3 is a very nice camera, but it's seriously flawed. And in some areas where I think to myself, how is it possible that these things are even an issue on this camera in 2024? But then I remind myself that all cameras are seriously flawed in different areas. But, yeah, it's designed to be used in manual focus, that's for sure. [02:03:24] Speaker D: I might even do a whole podcast, Greg, with you about this at some stage after the trip or something about Gear and stuff like that. But the other thing that I'm leaning towards, despite the fact that everything in my photographers ego wants to push back against it, is I brought a travel zoom and I got with that, that I wouldn't have got with a prime. And I'm a, I'm a, I'm a prime guy. Like Jim, Jim will tell you like we've, we, we. Yeah, we. And I've been trying to figure out why and it's almost like I think the primes a little bit. One of those things that after. I like the process of shooting with a prime a lot more but I tend to gravitate towards that. I think once I get bored with the photography subject. Like when, when Jim and I, I guess got reasonably competent with weddings, we were like, well, let's start shooting with primes because yeah, I don't know, it's almost seems something for us, it does something for us, it's more interesting. But then when I was over here I thought I would shoot mainly with primes, but I kept, you know, I would take the 28 out and I was like, oh, it's just a bit wide for what I want to do. And then I'd take the 50 out and then I'd end up in a situation in a tight alleyway or something like that. And I was like, oh, it's just a bit tight for what I want to do. And then I, I took the 24 to 105F4 out, which is just a. It's a little bit heavier than I'd like. It's F4, so it's slower than I'd like. But I was sort of running around like a kid just taking photos of whatever I could point the camera out and I got some good ones and I was like, okay, maybe. [02:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I'm with you, man. I, I'm. This last India trip was still Zen video and I took, I was shooting high speed video the whole trip. I took two primes. I took a 20 and a, and 85 and a 35. And I'm very used to swapping lenses very quick and all that. But the next, the next time I go on for this type of thing, there's no way I'll be taking primes. There will be, It'll be a 24, 72, 8 or something like that on the camera because I, I think it's a bit, I think it's a bit, it's a bit like this. Like there's some. When you're learning photography, like I still Am quite aggressively. You certainly. There's these things. Oh you know, primes are better for all these. All the re. Like you tick all these boxes. The prime is better because of this, this, this, this, this is and this and, and there's all the adages attached to that like well your feet are the zoom and all this stuff. But the reality is that if you're in a situation where you just getting the shot is more important than anything. [02:06:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:06:21] Speaker A: Who, no, who knows. No one knows if the image is good and you've zoomed in to 105 because it just makes. That smashes maybe what it is. Maybe you guys would know this better than me. I, I wonder if there's, there's been a feeling that the quality of the image is better from a prime because zoom those zooms the quality of. I've got some zoom a mind bendingly astonishing all the way through their ranges. [02:06:49] Speaker C: Quality subjective. [02:06:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:06:53] Speaker C: That's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Or the person paying for the, for the shoot. If it's a paid gig, that's different. But I think for, for what we're talking about, about exploring our craft, exploring new environments whether it be, you know, Vietnam or Japan or Easter Island. I think there's, there's a lot to be said for what makes you feel good as a photographer. Are you feeling anxious with a zoom? Then don't use a zoom stick with your prime. If you feel limited by a prime. [02:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:25] Speaker C: Shoot with you know, it's what gives. [02:07:27] Speaker A: You confidence, what having in your hand gives you, gives you confidence to realize your, your intention. And if you're in Vietnam on the street and you get to the end of the day and you go ah man, I was. Or you're a bit anxious or whatever. If whatever you have in your hand gives you confidence to achieve the creative goal of the day, that is what you should have in your hand. If your goal is to come back and go on social media and go yeah, shut this with a 24 hour one. Yeah. Watching with a friend, that's your intention and you, and you pick up that camera. But if you don't give a, you know, if you look at this image here and you go oh my God, I wish that I had been able to just punch in and zoom in to get a different viewpoint or whatever. Yeah, it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah. [02:08:19] Speaker D: So that, so let's, let's quickly, let's quickly whip through them and we can break down my stereotypes. Isn't that so that's the 20. That's the 24 to the 24 to 105. At 24, honestly, I wanted. I. I should have. I was on a bridge. I needed to be wider, and that was the widest I had. And I thought I missed the shot. And I looked it again. I thought, you know what? Being cropped like that, I actually don't mind it. [02:08:45] Speaker C: I like it. [02:08:46] Speaker D: But you couldn't use your legs in that. In that time either. I could have tried to fly, but also, I had to run. So Yelena will tell you one day I had to run along the bridge to meet. To be above the boat. [02:09:02] Speaker A: Oh, wicked. [02:09:03] Speaker D: How cool is going under? And I'm like. You know when you do that thing from, like, you slowly go from a fast walk to a run because you realize you're trying to look cool, and then you're like, I'm not going to make it. And then you start running. [02:09:17] Speaker A: Knowing. Knowing that is what makes it a great image. [02:09:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, true. [02:09:23] Speaker D: So this one again, 24 to 105. I've zoomed it into 43 mil just to frame it up the way that I wanted to frame it up with these. What are those things? Log things? Yeah, logs. Yep. So that was the. That was the zoom as well. [02:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:09:46] Speaker D: They've. They're wrapped in. So they use them to slide the hulls down into the water. Oh, yeah. I don't know what they're wrapped in. That's the 50 mil, 1.8. The nifty 50. That's the 24 to 105 again, particularly in Ho Chi Minh, like, when there's traffic and stuff. Zooming with your feet's pretty dangerous. That was the other thing. It was pretty handy to be able to frame and stuff in. Yeah. When there's just eight lanes of traffic. Was that at 24 as well? That one was at 24 as well. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that I do that thing with zooms where you basically. I treat the wide end like a prime, and then I. And I zoom in. But if I rack it out because I see something like this about to happen, it just ends up. You know, I'm very Rarely at like 26 mil on that lens. It just. It just racks out to 24 because that's just where it stops and I shoot at that. [02:10:43] Speaker C: Yeah, nice. [02:10:46] Speaker D: That's also the 24 to 105. I would have been just walking past, saw it, and as we went under the umbrella, just again, dropped it to 24 and took a shot. Yeah, you're lucky that there's lots of. Lots of lines that aren't straight, so you can't realize how tilted it is. Yeah, I can't roast you. Too bad. Well, I was actually trying to frame it perfectly. No, I just. That's just what happened. Well, you kind of almost straight off his umbrella. [02:11:10] Speaker A: But the first thing when I look at this, I think about something I learned on my last trip to India is. And this is when we think about a 24, 105 4. And you talk about it not being fast enough. Something that I. Something that I. A trap I fall into. And it happened on this last trip with the Leica. And with the video is being wide open too much and losing. Losing a lot of the story in the background. So I look at something and just go, ah. I do actually wish that was sharp, because your eye follows through the image and you're like, ah. And if you. If it's tempting to go too shallow. [02:11:46] Speaker D: Sometimes it's more so at night. So if I'm transitioning from day to night and even the 2.8s weren't fast enough, as soon as it got dark, I want, like. I want a wide. What I want. So the next image, this is with the 28 mil Canon pancake lens, which is a 28 mil 2.8. Because Canon currently don't make anything better for 28, which I really like the 28, which is why I bought the Q3. Yeah, Canon don't make like a 1.4 or 1.8 or something. Otherwise I'd own that because I just find 2.8 at night. Unless you're doing something like this with where you can slow the shutter down and I'm not moving. I was just having to push the ISO way too high. [02:12:32] Speaker A: What's too high? In isolate. When you say that, what's A. [02:12:36] Speaker D: For me on the R5 look, black and white is a little bit different, but just knowing how the images will fall apart. 6400 is nice to stay at. I'll shoot it higher than that. But how nice to be able to say that, right? I know. [02:12:51] Speaker A: Hey, I wonder what a time we live in. [02:12:54] Speaker D: It used to be 1600 or 800. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the 28 again. So that's at 4200ths of a second. That's about where I would sit at a lot of the time at night. And look, looking at that now, it's fine in my head when I shot that, I was like, man, I wish I had a 1.4. I'd shoot this at 1.4. [02:13:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:16] Speaker D: But it's actually fun. [02:13:19] Speaker A: I shot my first India trip. I shot the entire trip on a canon 241 14. And that. That is. That was a great street lens. It was. [02:13:29] Speaker D: I'm wondering whether A24 because Canon have released A24 14 for their system just recently. And I'm. I'm wondering whether, like, I'm sort of used to the 28, but the Q3 is a little bit wider than a 28 apparently. Like it's like a 26 or something. [02:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:44] Speaker D: And I'm like, I wonder if I'd notice the difference in a 24 or if I literally would just state take one step forward, you know, like. And it maybe not be too much of a difference. I don't know. [02:13:54] Speaker C: Well, just review the images that you've shot with the 24105 and see how many of them were at 24 and whether you like the framing. And if you do well then. Well then, you know, maybe there's an argument there for you to get a 241 point. What is it? A 1.4 prime. [02:14:10] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I feel like if you were shooting at 24 though, and it went to 20, you'd be shooting at 20. That's what I was saying. A lot of the time it's because that's as wide as I've got. And then like once I rack it out to 24 then I'm like, oh, actually step back a little bit or whatever. Yeah, I think. Right. It's like it's. I'm using it to. In my head, I go, I need to go wider and 24 goes. So it's not necessarily that I love that exact focal length, but I don't know. [02:14:39] Speaker A: So that's this idea, this idea that. This idea that where you just shoot real wide and crop. It just doesn't. You learn when you're on the street, you learn real quick that that is not helpful. [02:14:52] Speaker D: Exactly. You don't want to be doing that is you want a 28 1.4, like the Nikon lens that I've got. Yes, that. That Nikon 28 1.4 is a wonderful lens. I miss that lens. That's great. On the D850, that was an all time image quality. Great camera and lens combo. Little, little bit on the heavier side, but quite manageable. Worth it. That's the 28 again. So that's a 5.6. See, I was shooting a lot at like fairly sort of deep apertures and then that's the 50 mil at F2. [02:15:28] Speaker A: But again, it goes back to like all of these, all of these images that you're sharing each. Because we're talking about that depth of field thing. All of them. And I really love that I can tell what's happening in the background. You know, there's. Because that's the, with the street store, with the street photography and the storytelling in the street. It's all part of the story. Unless you don't want it to be. But, But I'm loving how I can. I'm. I'm falling into these images and realizing that I can't see any tourists here. Now. If it was super shallow on her face, you might not know that or, you know, it's. This is the one. This is. [02:16:05] Speaker D: This is the one. [02:16:07] Speaker C: Yeah, it's my one. [02:16:08] Speaker D: That one was with the. Yeah, with the Nifty 50. So if any of you people out there are looking for cheap lenses, you can't go past whatever system's got their cheap 50 mil lens. And if you don't have it and you don't have any primes, just get one of those. [02:16:21] Speaker C: Yep, it's a good everyday lens. [02:16:25] Speaker D: So anyway, so that's, that's what I learned about lenses, was that zooms are fun as well. Yeah. [02:16:33] Speaker C: We were talking earlier, I use an analogy about a hammer and a, you know, a nail gun for, for someone who's just looking for the tool, the right tool for the job, you know, and lenses are no different. We get swayed by opinion and social media and marketing to believe otherwise about certain things. But speaking of lenses, I just want to jump to a couple of the comments because there's. There's some lively chat going on about lenses in the, in the comments. So from Keegan the Vegan. I love my Tamron 28 to 228, 5.6. It lives on my camera. I would love a 20 mil 1.8 or two. 24. 1.4 if anyone needs a kidney. [02:17:13] Speaker A: My 20. My 20 mil 1.8 is my. It lives on my, my. So I've got the Sony 21.8 and it's my go to video lens. That thing. [02:17:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:17:25] Speaker A: And that 28 to 200 fringe. Just got that. And, and see, this is the thing is we would have the idea of the 28-200mil lens even five years ago would have been comical. And now some of the stuff is mind bending. [02:17:40] Speaker D: Jimbo's got that. The Tamron. What is it? The 35 to 150F2 to 2.8. [02:17:47] Speaker A: That's the one I'm thinking about. That's the one, yeah. [02:17:50] Speaker C: That's insane. [02:17:51] Speaker D: It's crazy. It's unreal. It's an unreal one. [02:17:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:17:54] Speaker A: Witchcraft. [02:17:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Can I just add, speaking of Keegan the vegan, Being a vegan, his kidney would actually be in pretty good quality. [02:18:02] Speaker A: Well, it would be a high quality kidney. [02:18:04] Speaker C: High quality kidney. Dave has said 24 to 105 F4 is so versatile, but heavy. I've also got the lighter RF24, 105 F4, 24105 F4 to 7.1. It's about a third the size and weight. Very underrated, particularly for travel when you need that light compact option. Question here from David Justin. Can you speak to the difference of photographing someone there as to another Asian community maybe in your country, here in San Francisco, Chinatown, they can get in your face a bit? [02:18:41] Speaker D: I probably don't have enough experience to answer that question. I don't really photograph a lot of street in Australia, so I don't, I don't know. Dennis might have more. [02:18:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. What do you think, Dennis? [02:18:52] Speaker A: Oh, look, I, I the thing with the thing in for me in, in somewhere like India is everyone is so personable like you, you this is a whole nother conversation about that trip. But I have this quite interesting method and that's be really nice. [02:19:08] Speaker D: Controversial. [02:19:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And what happens is the, the next person down the road sees you being really nice and the person you're having a chat with, having a great time. But people in Australia or insert other place not quite like you don't just stop on the side of the road and chat randomly to someone about them and their life and everything and then go, oh, by the way, I'm a portrait photographer. Would you mind if I made your image? Yeah. In India everyone wants to stop and have a chat and it makes it, it makes it easy. And so my response to that question is everywhere is different people. I if you live in San Francisco and people are really outgoing and chatty and friendly, it might be completely different to New York. And what I know is that making. However, that does not mean that people make great images in India all the time. I still see so many tourists and photographers walking around just like stealing portraits. There's not one portrait I've ever made in that country that I've not stood and either had a conversation with, chatted with or connected as I'm walking towards them and develop an understanding of what is about to go down. [02:20:27] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the stuff that I don't understand as much like. So I haven't. I don't do any portraits in this kind of stuff. I'm more. I like to document things, but I'm all. People would also say my photos are probably pretty fearful in the eyes of other street photographers because when I am walking around. And again, if Yelena was on here, she would say. Because I've said it to her quite a few times, like, I'd love to take that photo, but I'm not going to because I sort of think about it, you know, just because I'm in Vietnam, if I was in Melbourne, I wouldn't take that photo because the person on the other end of the photo would be like, did that guy just take my photo? Like, what? I'm just working my job or whatever. Why did that person point their camera at me as they walked past and not even say anything? So it's sort of like, I think in my head, I'm like, once I cross that boundary of. You've, like, you're saying, Dennis, you've interacted with them by stealing their portrait, but you haven't had the respect to interact with them beyond that. That's the line that I don't want to cross, I guess. [02:21:45] Speaker A: And it is a whole nother. I mean, we know that there is a whole genre of that, of. Of that images, but, you know, that is how the image was taken. It's designed to be shocking and confrontational. [02:21:57] Speaker D: You know, when I. [02:21:57] Speaker A: When I think of my favorite 20 portraits that I've made in India, whether they're video portraits or still portraits, it's when there is this deep connection where they're. They're looking at the camera as if they're looking in my eyes. And that takes. There's something. I don't know what it is, but. But that is something I. One of the things I've learned is how to make that connection quite quickly. But also, and most importantly is recognized when you haven't. For every. For every great image you see that I've taken somewhere of anyone, there's 10 where either the camera didn't even come up to me because you just know that either it's not appropriate or they have indicated even non verbally, that this is not something they want to do. And. [02:22:44] Speaker C: You got to respect that. [02:22:45] Speaker D: I just got a book before I come over here, actually, that. And maybe one day I'll explore the portrait interaction side of this kind of work like you do. But are you a Steve McCurry? Fan, not fan. Yeah. It seems like in his work that's a lot of like, like some of it is, is photojournalism and then some of it is the deep portraits and it's. Yeah, just a completely different style. [02:23:14] Speaker A: The whole, the whole. And this is again, you know, not going deep in. I, I have an astonishing book collection of photography books because. And, and art books more importantly. But some of the stuff I love the most of, of street portraits and learning and, and when you read those stories of how these people operate and. But the joy, one of the joys of social media is we get to see them operating. There's so many varied types like images that look like they are images that look like there's these sort of candid portraits and then you realize actually, you know, these highly not staged but there's real effort and energy and time put into making these images. Amazing. And I love all of the different types, you know. [02:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah, nice. [02:24:02] Speaker A: The video, the video. This, this video idea in India this year was, was a super success and another, another, another chat. But that, that navigated that whole idea. I wanted people to see the phases of the portrait on the street and the phases of this. It's the. You want to take my portrait? Oh my God, you took my portrait. And what I did is I picked, I, I lifted a high speed video camera up to my face as if I was taking a still. But it's recording 100 frames and so you get this three minute long video of those processes that, that whole link and some of the results were extraordinary. [02:24:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I got to see some of that at one of your presentations in, in Beef up hq. It was a real beautiful. Yeah, beautiful because there was so much else going around. You were solely focused on this person and you could tell from the look on their face that there was no fear, there was no defensiveness. Their walls were down because of that connection that you, that you make. But the amount that was going on in the background, bicycles and cars and chickens and dogs running and you know, but it was because it was all silent slow motion, slow motion. You know, it just sort of really captured a moment in time. It was, it was quite mesmerizing to watch. I am conscious of time. [02:25:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that clock and trying to. [02:25:32] Speaker C: No, no, no, it's good. We love this. And for those of you that are at home or pretending to be at work watching and listening, we thank you for sticking with us. A couple of quick news items before we say our farewells. I won't bring them up on the site. Fujifilm have just announced yesterday that they are developing a dedicated GFX cine camera. I saw basically the GFX102 mark 2 image sensor, which is the same that's in the GFX100s mark 2 which Dennis currently has a copy of that he's been throwing around. [02:26:06] Speaker A: I shot some video on it too in the studio here and it was pretty wild. [02:26:09] Speaker C: Yeah, it's pretty impressive. And also the X processor 5 which, which is all in all Fuji flagship bodies now. But yeah, and it's a big boxy thing. It's not, it doesn't look like a typical gfx. It looks very much like a workhorse rig. Not many details on that at this stage, but more to come. Nikon. This one's for Jim. In case you're looking for a second shooter. Jim, Nikon have just dropped a Z50 mark 2 that just came out. Surprisingly last week there wasn't a lot of preamble about that one. It just kind of popped up. Yeah. And I was actually talking to a retail outlet here in Melbourne and one of the employees said yeah, we got like less than 24 hours notice. We had to prep marketing brief and you know, get it all up on the site. So they were kind of the standout news items. The only other thing which I think Justin should fund a lucky straps trip is that there's a new imaging show trade show coming in March of next year. It's going to be in Bangkok and all the big brands are expected to attend. So we're seeing some resurgence in trade show activity which, you know, obviously died a lot. Died a very quick death During COVID. [02:27:28] Speaker A: I was lucky enough to go to Photo K Germany. I did, I did a presentation and light painting booth there. That was bad. [02:27:36] Speaker C: Yeah, that would have been crazy. That's a big event. So yeah. So Justin, we'll, we'll send you our seating preferences. [02:27:48] Speaker D: Did you want premium economy or business class? Greg? [02:27:51] Speaker C: I know business. [02:27:52] Speaker D: Oh, okay. [02:27:54] Speaker A: What is this question? [02:27:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'm working on a, I. [02:27:59] Speaker A: Have standards, I'm finalizing it just right now. A potential shoot in Dubai next Thursday. And yeah, I, I, I have realized that Emirates are flying out of Adelaide now straight into Dubai. And it's like you get on the plane at 10pm and you're there at 5am so it's just a slightly more uncomfortable sleep that I normally have. But business class would be nice. [02:28:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I've only ever flown business class once but fortunately that was to, that was to Tokyo. It was Jetstar business class. So it's not. [02:28:34] Speaker A: It's just. [02:28:36] Speaker C: Less rats in the business end. But that's. That brings us into the news. There's a few things happening. A couple of rumbles about. Sony's about to drop a new camera. [02:28:48] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:28:50] Speaker C: Fuji have just announced they're developing something special. So there's a lot. There's a lot going on in the industry, which is good to see. Yeah, there is. [02:28:58] Speaker A: It's feeling. It's feeling in a complicated economy and it must be hard for those companies. [02:29:05] Speaker D: It sounds like the Canberra brands are making money at the moment. By the sounds of the. [02:29:09] Speaker C: It feels that way. [02:29:10] Speaker D: They're releasing that. They're actually sort of. They've stabilized after the big. The big drop that they went through and maybe they found that this is the level we operate at. [02:29:20] Speaker C: The new normal. [02:29:21] Speaker D: The new normal. We'll just double the price of all of our L series lenses and that'll help keep our profits. [02:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah. You'll still buy them, though. [02:29:29] Speaker A: I love you. [02:29:31] Speaker C: On that note, I want to wrap up, but first and foremost I want to thank our guest, Dennis Smith. Dennis, thank you. You are a legendary light painter, as your title suggests. [02:29:40] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:29:41] Speaker C: It's been an absolutely blast having you on. Thank you for being such an open book and making yourself vulnerable to share your experience in the hope that others learn something or are inspired to, you know, try something new or just at the very least, get out and shoot with a camera. Be present, breathe, take your time, Take. [02:29:59] Speaker A: A shot and make it for you. Make it for you. If you make the work and the experience and the images for you, it will make you. It'll make it better. And thank you. I appreciate the invitation. I. It's been an honor. Thank you. [02:30:15] Speaker C: Wonderful. [02:30:16] Speaker D: What's the best you've mentioned a few places like your YouTube, obviously the website is the hub of everything you do. What's the best way for people to keep tabs on what you're up to? [02:30:27] Speaker A: Instagram. So my Instagram account, which is the ball of light is at the moment, is the one. I'm very busy. My website is about to get a whole new refresh. But you YouTube and Instagram otherwise ones for sure. Yeah, yeah. But it's a little Instagram account, but I'm. I'm engaging with it more and more every day and, and trying to make it just more fun. But Instagram is the one. Yeah. [02:30:53] Speaker C: Cool. Worst case, folks, Google Dennis Smith. And it's, it's hard to miss the search results. Look for the light. Look for the ball of light. Yeah. We will drop the links in. Dave, thanks for joining us once again with his message. Thanks, lads. So, Dennis, possibly off to Dubai. [02:31:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we're just trying to close it down. There was a meeting last night. It's a weird time zone. I've been up till three every morning, like, trying to close this thing down. But there's a big, There's a huge Porsche festival in Dubai. It's the biggest Porsche festival in the world. There's some complications around. I mean, it's a weird industry, but we're working on some light painting stuff up there. Automotive is my big thing at the moment. So, yeah, we, weirdly, I'm still, We're, we're waiting. I'll probably know in the next 24 hours. It's looking very, very, very likely. But I, I'm, I just ready to drop any of these things. I, I'll. I can. 48 hours, I can be anywhere in the world making light, painting images and, and I think people just know that. But yeah, Dubai, crazy place. It's like a science fiction movie there. [02:32:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Wonderful. Jim, thanks for. Thanks for dialing in. You were late again, but thank you. Any plans to pick up a camera yet? [02:32:11] Speaker D: Not yet, no. [02:32:12] Speaker C: No, still in recovery mode. [02:32:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to navigate that idea, that story. Sorry, what's going on there anyway? That's a. I want to know. I want to know the basis of that sentence, the short version. [02:32:29] Speaker C: Recovering from surgery. [02:32:31] Speaker A: Ah, yeah. [02:32:34] Speaker D: A broken, broken femur. What, 18 months ago. [02:32:39] Speaker A: Whoa. [02:32:39] Speaker D: Yeah. 15 months ago. Yeah. Yeah. [02:32:42] Speaker A: Wedding photography is a crazy sport. Yeah. [02:32:49] Speaker C: The bridesmaids jumping for the bouquet. They just took him out. That's his camera. [02:32:54] Speaker A: Jesus. [02:32:55] Speaker C: Justin. Justin. What? How long have you got left in country? [02:33:00] Speaker D: We fly out on Friday. No, Saturday. Yeah. Okay, so we're in. I'm in Hoi an at the moment. We get a flight from Da Nang in a few hours actually and fly back to Ho Chi Minh a couple more days there. Getting out on the streets and then home. [02:33:20] Speaker A: Enjoy. Yeah, enjoy it. [02:33:22] Speaker C: Make the most of it. That sounds awesome. [02:33:24] Speaker D: It has been great. And it's cheap. You can actually afford to be over here. It's amazing, like. So I'll just show you the view from our 50 a night hotel room. [02:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's crazy. It. [02:33:39] Speaker B: Oh, my. [02:33:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's the beach. [02:33:42] Speaker D: What is that? [02:33:42] Speaker A: The beach? [02:33:47] Speaker D: Interestingly, what I think I want to come back here and shoot. Is all of. See these buildings behind me? [02:33:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:33:53] Speaker D: It's an abandoned resort. Completely abandoned. And there's them everywhere. [02:33:59] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [02:34:00] Speaker D: It's like, so there's a ton under construction and there's a ton that are abandoned. It's like crazy if it doesn't go well or whatever, they just ripple and just move on. It's crazy. [02:34:12] Speaker C: Crazy. [02:34:15] Speaker A: That's the thing. Within India is ultra cheap to be at as well. It's a big attraction to going to make stuff there. [02:34:21] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:34:24] Speaker C: Very good. Well, look, on that note, thank you all for joining. Thank you everyone who's been watching live or listening. No watching live. And for those of you that catch up later, as I know many of you do, thank you for jumping on the video. Whether it be the video or the audio podcast. Podcast, make sure you look for that too. Make sure you leave a comment like subscribe tickle the bell so you get notified when we're up to no good. But on that note, Justin, last thing. [02:34:52] Speaker D: One quick sponsorship thing. [02:34:53] Speaker C: He always has to say the last word. [02:34:55] Speaker D: Our biggest sale of the year starts very soon. It's only for previous customers and sneakily email subscribers, but if you're not one of those, just DM us on Instagram or something and we'll, we'll get you access to it. But it won't be advertised on the website. It starts in a couple of days. [02:35:17] Speaker C: It's the family sale. Is it family sale? Family sale. And also the new, the new wearable merch. [02:35:24] Speaker D: Yeah, Jim's got someone. [02:35:26] Speaker A: That's a pretty nice T shirt there. [02:35:30] Speaker D: I haven't got mine on. Mine are all dirty. I didn't bring enough T shirts. [02:35:35] Speaker C: All right, so yeah, well, check out the Lucky Straps website. Thank you to everyone for watching and listening. And this has been the Camera Life podcast, episode 38. It's the 14th of November. Signing out for now. Stay safe. Have a great weekend ahead. Get out and shoot. Doesn't matter what camera, doesn't matter what lens, just get out there and look for the light and make yourself happy with no one else. All right, on that note, have a good time everyone. See you next week. [02:36:06] Speaker D: Thanks, guys. [02:36:08] Speaker C: We need some outro music. Jim. [02:36:16] Speaker A: Let'S kiss and be.