EP39 Film Wedding Photography with Joel Alston of Barefoot and Bearded

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Is this an official Lucky Straps soundtrack or are we gonna. We're gonna get, get a DJ to make a. I'm gonna get a new submix. [00:00:16] Speaker A: I think, I think it's time for a new song. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we should commission some, some musicians to make something. [00:00:21] Speaker A: That'd be a good idea. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Unique. [00:00:23] Speaker C: I reckon we could organize that. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Good morning everybody. Welcome to the Camera Life podcast, proudly brought to you by Lucky Camera Straps L located in Bendigo, Victoria, Australia. Earth, the Milky Way. It's 21st November 2024. Can you believe that? It's only something stupid, like 30 something days until the big guy in red arrives. If you're into that. This is episode 39 and we're coming to you live. Now don't forget if you're watching along at home now or if you watch this later while you're pretending to work and look busy for the boss, please remember to like and subscribe and tickle the bell button so that you get notified every time we have a show because we're going to start mixing things up and so stick around if you want to hear a little bit more about some of the early ideas we have about how to take the show in interesting and new directions. So yeah, we're very close to Christmas. It's the pointy end for a lot of retail sales are going. I don't know about anyone else, but sales are going absolutely bananas on social media at the moment. I am getting offers for so many discounts it's hard not to buy everything, especially gear related stuff. And also don't forget that if you're an audio podcast listener, all of our shows, our back catalog are available on all the best audio podcast streaming services. So please just do a search for the Camera Life and make sure you subscribe there too. Good morning, Justin. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Good morning Greg and everybody. [00:01:58] Speaker B: How are you? [00:01:58] Speaker A: I'm great. [00:02:00] Speaker B: That's good. [00:02:00] Speaker C: You're back. [00:02:01] Speaker B: That's good. [00:02:02] Speaker A: I'm back. [00:02:02] Speaker B: He's back. He's back from Vietnam. In Vietnam. Folks, in case you missed out the last couple of weeks. [00:02:09] Speaker A: It'S been a good morning. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Jim. No, we don't hear anymore. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Okay, see ya. [00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah, you can log out now. [00:02:19] Speaker B: We don't need you now. You've done your bit. Thanks man. [00:02:22] Speaker A: Jim, how are you for the music? [00:02:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm well, thank you. [00:02:25] Speaker B: That's good. [00:02:26] Speaker C: Very well. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Good. Good to have you on the show second week in a row. Good to see you upright again and third week. Sorry, my bad. I'm sorry. And we're joined today by good friend Joel Elston. Joel is a. Joel's going to explain what he is a bit more detail because no one knows Joel like Joel, but he's a wedding photographer based in Sydney in Newcastle, New South Wales who predominantly shoots analog film for weddings. Justin and I, when we were on our recent trip, well, it's a number of weeks ago now, but in October we traveled to Brighton, Victoria for the Bright Festival of Photography and we, we bumped into Joel and we continued to bump into Joel throughout the whole weekend. Joel and I joined a couple of early morning chats over breakfast and coffee and I noticed that Justin and Joel enjoyed a few late night beverages over a five pit one or two. Joel, great to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us today. [00:03:28] Speaker D: Thanks for having us, guys. I'm very excited to be chatting with you guys today. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought you were lost for words there for a minute, mate. That's completely out of character for you. [00:03:36] Speaker D: Yeah, hold it back because once I get started I can't stop. So I'm trying to like hold it back a little bit first. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Ease into it. Easy. [00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah, just. Yeah, good to hear, good to hear. So just before we dive into Joel's story, stick around, folks. If you want to hear more about analog film photography and making a hugely brave step to shoot such important events with film. We've all come to rely on the, I guess the safety of, and the backup of digital photography for special events. We all feel like, you know, we need to have A A camera and a B body and backup cards and. But Joel's winging it in many ways, although his skills certainly seem to produce the results. Also stick around. We're going to talk a little bit about some of the latest gear announcements that have come up. Just this week alone we've got a Sony A1. We're going to talk about that. Sorry. A1 mark 2 has been announced. Sony's flagship camera's finally been updated for the first time in three years and Sony have also dropped some new lenses. I think Tamron have dropped a four pack of. Is it Tamron? No, sorry. Sigma has dropped a four pack of APS C primes for RF cameras. We'll have a quick look at those and we're also going to talk a little bit about, or probably a lot about Justin's travels to Vietnam and maybe looks at some more of his folio of images. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah, my homework didn't go well this week, but yeah, it's almost ready. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah, we've already said that. Justin. Justin may have to stay back after class to finishes. [00:05:18] Speaker A: I, I'm excited to talk to Joel. I, I heard a rumor he might have bought a new camera recently, so I'm excited to ask him about that. [00:05:28] Speaker B: So that's a good rumor. All right, well, speak of the devil. Let's dive in to Joel's story. Joel, once again, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us. We've been keen to get you on board ever since we bumped into you in Beef up and I love that you're so enthusiastic about being involved in what we do as well. Tell us a little bit about your photography journey. Like where did photography start for you? [00:05:55] Speaker D: So I've never been, I never was a creative person growing up. I was always sort of sporty. But I've been doing photography now for 10 years. I started my business back in 2014. I just picked up my. Just like very similar story to, I think a lot of people. I just picked up my dad's digital camera, was shooting surf and stuff around Newcastle for a bit and friends and lifestyle found a passion for it, really enjoyed it. Got asked to shoot a friend's wedding, shot a friend's wedding, realized it was actually kind of fun and it wasn't as lame as what I thought it was going to be. And then I really like, even then for the first, I'd say six years of my career, I wouldn't say I was artistic in any way. I think the reason why my business did well is because when I was at school I did business studies and that was the only sort of subject I did like half decent at. So I just invested my time into creating like a business and a brand which was barefoot and bearded that people just wanted to be associated with. So I just worked on the culture behind the business and I know wedding photography I think is like, it's a lot easier than what people think. I think you can just open up a wedding magazine and just copy poses. It's pretty, it's pretty easy to do and. [00:07:10] Speaker C: But to do it. [00:07:11] Speaker B: The arrogance of youth. Hey, Justin. [00:07:14] Speaker D: Well, like, to get like wedding photos is easy. [00:07:17] Speaker A: I, yeah, I agree, it's, it's. I mean if you're technically proficient with a camera and you can talk to people, turning that into what is known as sort of modern, competent wedding photography. It's not, it's not a. Oh, Joe gone. Hang on, we'll bring him back. [00:07:33] Speaker C: Kicked him out. He's still here, I guess. [00:07:35] Speaker B: Sorry, mate, I think might have been me. [00:07:39] Speaker A: It's like, no, this is boring. Yeah, no, I Agree. It's not the hardest thing to do. Like you say you can see what other people do that are successful and go, okay, I can figure that out. I can reverse engineer this. [00:07:51] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's not that difficult, like, yet. Weddingy photos. So, yeah, I sort of just, you know, wash, rinse, repeat. I actually feel really guilty talking about it because I feel that there was like six years there of my career where I just treated people's really special day as just, you know, a formula. I'd go in with my formula and just like, do the same thing and then send it out and do another one. So it felt really ingenuine. And then Covid hit, which obviously launched everyone who had a business in weddings into an absolute emotional frenzy. Every time my phone went off, it was just anxiety with couples either postponing or canceling. It was just a horrific time. But once you sort of got over that emotional hurdle, it actually obviously freed up a lot of time for me to start shooting for myself, which I never really had the opportunity to do because I think I started shooting, I shot one wedding, and then the next year I did two weddings. The year after that I did 25, and then it was 75, and then that was it. So I didn't really have much time in my photography career to sort of fall in love with photography. It just became a business really quickly. Whereas Covid gave me that opportunity to shoot for myself. And then I started to understand, like, the importance of photography and, you know, the impact that it has on me in my life and being able to reflect on the important things that I photograph for me. And it just opened up this whole new world to me of like, oh, this is what it's about and this is what I get to do for couples now, especially with such big days. So it's really shifted the way that I, like, I have a camera in my hands everywhere I go and weddings, it's. I look at things a lot differently now than what I used to. You know, I don't have an. I don't bring my own agenda in. It's just like, yeah, a bit more personalized individual to the people that I'm photographing. Trying to learn who I am and learn the, like, the little mannerisms that make them, them. Rather than being like, hey, stand in a, you know, a paddock over there, you, sunset behind you. Because I know, I, I. What are we, like, on swearing on this show, by the way? [00:10:05] Speaker B: Whatever. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:10:07] Speaker D: Sweet. Because I hate that. I really, like, find that those sort of wedding photos just like, it just means nothing. I just think pretty photos are easy, but they don't have any. Like, it just doesn't have any meaning to it. Like, I think when couples get those photos, they have this initial endorphin boost of like, wow, we look great. Look how lovely that looks. But in music, they're not the ones that they're going back to or, like, you know, it's the. It's hugging grandma after the ceremony and like, the little mannerisms that. Little communications that people have at weddings that I think are the most important things to photograph that might not look the prettiest, might not be in the best light, might not be composed perfectly, might not even be in focus, but it's like those things that people are going to look at and go, shit. That's what they feel. So, yeah, my journey has changed a lot now. And it's. [00:10:59] Speaker B: Joe, you. You kind of went in an opposite direction to many people, but it's not an uncommon path to take where you see a business model and an opportunity to earn an income. Let's face it, we all live in a. Yeah. In a world where we have to make money. And then would it be fair to say that you found your creative side later? [00:11:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:11:21] Speaker B: After Covid. [00:11:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:11:22] Speaker B: You suddenly realized that actually this was a really powerful tool for capturing the reality of life. And I think on your website, you talk about wanting to capture real photos, real images, real people being real, you know, and there's that candid street photography style. And you've talked and you talk on your website about how some of your influences are, you know, the New York street photographers. Yeah, that. And we certainly saw that from you in BFOP where you were walking around with a camera with a flash, a film camera with a flash. And you were even on the bus on the way home from the after party. I just caught it picture on your Instagram of me, you know, grabbing those shots that no one, no one anticipated, no one prepped for, no one posed for. You know, I think there's a lot to be said for that, for that approach. Let's just dial back a little bit. You said that you, you know, you picked up your dad's old digital camera. Do you remember what your first camera was, that camera? [00:12:24] Speaker D: It was a Canon 550D with Kit Zoom, one of the kit zoom lenses, like 1855 or something like that, I think. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker B: And so that was fun. [00:12:36] Speaker D: But, yeah, it was, you know, I moved on to a Canon seven Day after that, and then I Think it was Fuji and then I went to Nikon for a long time and then went back to Fuji and now analog, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the job. [00:12:51] Speaker B: So you have no brand allegiance? [00:12:53] Speaker D: Yeah, no, no, I don't really care. It's whatever, deal, whatever I'm most excited to pick up. That's the best camera you can have. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yep, yep. Fair enough. And with, with the earlier wedding photos and sessions you said where it was more just, you brought in a template, you had your agenda, you applied a templated approach, which to be fair, a lot of professional wedding photographers do, they have a process and a system because it makes for efficiency and they get the shots that the couples typically demand. Yeah. What was that like for you when you would review and edit photos? Was it, was there no attachment to the, to the, to the craft? Was it just, you know, was it just part of the process or did you connect with what was happening for the people in the shots? [00:13:46] Speaker D: I think, yeah, I think that's a good question. It was just, it's completely just business orientated. Like, it's just efficient. Consistency is good in business too, like, because then couples can look at their photos and know exactly what they're going to get. It made my workflow really quickly because I'd always look for the same light, same settings, same composition. So it would just make my workflow and editing really quickly. And like I said before, it was just like in. It just felt really ingenuine. But it was just business, you know, And I think that's how I just approached it. It was like it was just a business, you know, it wasn't about the art form of photography. It was more just like, I gotta make money. And, and the thing is, the hard, the hard part about that is that when you do that and you follow that formula, you book a lot of weddings, you get to travel to all these places, so you get given all this type of success that you feel that you, you know, that it's good to have all that income there, of course, but when you stray away from that, you do notice in a change in your income and business and all that sort of stuff. Because it's not as like when people, when you say to couples, like, I'm a wedding photographer, they already have this preconceived idea of what images look like. You know, they just think about them in their head and it's like, these are the photos I expect. And then when you look on a wedding photographer website, you're just not surprised, you know, it's just like, yeah, that's exactly what I thought. Whereas I had a compliment. Like, the best compliment I had the other day was from one of my friends, and he looked at my Instagram and he goes, oh, dude, it actually took me a while to realize that you're a wedding photographer. And I was like, that's perfect. That's exactly what I want. I want to look like. So, yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, I just felt like a. Just felt like a business back then, you know, and not saying that I didn't care about the photos and I didn't care about my results and my couples very deeply cared, but I just didn't know how to, you know, artistically back then. Whereas now I just have a bit more of an understanding about photography, I think. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Jim, can I ask you a question? Did you. Did you feel. When you and Justin first started in the wedding business, did you have that disconnect between the business and the art, or was it, you know, as Joel has described, was it purely just a model that worked and you had the tools for the job, or was there more artistic consideration? [00:16:12] Speaker C: No, I think it was. It wasn't like cookie cutter. We did exactly the same thing, but we would often say, you know, it's. It does look different, because different people, different days, different light. But we would come back with similar shots because we obviously shot a lot at the similar venues. But then we also sort of said that this is why people are booking us, because they want the. The shot at this venue. [00:16:37] Speaker A: So I. I guess an analogy I would almost take is it sounds like Joel was looking to be a. A architect, like, designer architecture, one home builder of special homes for people that he put his soul into. Whereas Jim and I were like, we. We want to. We want to make sure people get their dream home, but that doesn't mean we don't. We weren't necessarily going out trying to design a home that might end up in a magazine. We're trying to make sure that, you know, yeah, the paint works nice, and everything's. Everything's as it should be, as they ordered. Customers are happy. And that doesn't mean we didn't try and get creative. Like, we loved photography, but we. We tried to walk away from a wedding day going, all right, we got. We got it all. We got everything that we believe they would want out of the day. Yeah. And creativity, I wouldn't say took a back seat to that, but, like. Or maybe it did. I don't know. You might be able to say, like, I kind of took a backseat to two. Did we do we think we fulfilled our obligations and these guys will come away stoked with the result. Might have taken a backseat to creativity. I don't know. [00:18:06] Speaker C: I feel like our great creativity sort of came from. We thought, well, we could do it. You know, when we started, we shot like with a 7, 200 to 8 and like a wide. And then we kind of went, all right, we just started shooting primes. And that was like, our creativity was kind of still getting the similar photos but pushing ourselves to do it in like at the start a more difficult way. It was a lot easier to just stand in one shot, get a tight, get a wide. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:34] Speaker C: You know, actually having to run around and think about it a bit more. With primes. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and even aspects of the day that relate to locations and weather and stuff like that. We took them as almost like technical photography challenges. The first things like you're a big beginner photographer and then you're like, all right, can I do a sunset photo that looks cool? Can I do shots when it rains that look cool, that show that experience? Okay, can I do. And then that evolved into like, we get bored during the reception. We're like, all right, cool, we're going to take you outside and do a shot under the Milky Way if you guys want to give it a go and stuff like that. Like almost just, you know, learning skills with the camera and then going, can we apply that during a wedding day? [00:19:20] Speaker B: Which that took time. That was an instant. [00:19:22] Speaker A: It took time. And it always felt a little bit more like photography maybe than creativity specifically, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. [00:19:35] Speaker D: But I think especially with weddings too, like one thing that you need to think about and consider is that it's. They spend a lot of money. You know, it's like, well play well paying photography gig. And out of all the other photography jobs you do, unless you're doing huge high end stuff, like you don't really get paid that much from any other gig. So you do have this internal like pressure where you like, they're paying a lot of money. Like, I don't want to get to creative or go too far this way because they might not like it. So to do the safe stuff or do the wedding photos, you just know it's going to work, you know, and you know they're going to be happy. It's exactly what they expect. Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's like there's this internal pressure and because in the photography community, even if you're not a wedding photo, especially if you're not a wedding photographer, actually, like if you tell people you shoot weddings, they go, oh my God, like that must be so stressful. And you're like, it's like once you do it a bit, it's not that bad, you know. But I, you do have this, there's this stigma around about how much pressure it is. You can't miss these first kiss, you can't miss this. You know, there's all this pressure, there's all this money. So there's all these expectations and like. Yeah, you know, I think that that sort of, it can subconsciously, if not consciously, like box you into something that's like this expectation of like it has to be this way, you know. So I think that's a hard thing to break out for with wedding photographers in general, I think. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:00] Speaker B: Cool question, Joel. You talked about your obviously how Covid, you know, pretty much put an end to everyone's best laid plans. But for you, and to quote Oprah Winfrey, when was that aha moment that you went, oh, actually I'm getting more out of this than I realized that this, this whole camera photography business is actually sparking something inside me that makes me want to do more than just cookie cutter weddings, as you say. [00:21:29] Speaker D: Yeah. So it's funny actually. So obviously shooting full time analog. Now the only time that I photographed analog over the last 10 years was for personal stuff because I didn't want it to jump into my workflow of importing photos, edit, export, putting in a folder. I didn't want it to feel like work, but obviously not having much work. I got a Fuji X100V and I just changed it to black and white, shot JPEG and started photographing my son. And for the first, like when my son was born, I didn't photograph him for a year and a half because it was just work. I was so busy and I have a lot of regret around that. So I overcompensate massively now. So I photographed him heaps in covert on this X100V and it was funny like obviously when they're, when if you've got kids and you know, ages between 3 and 4, like doesn't seem like a big change, but you see so much growth. So photograph him. I'd look back on these photos I'd take six months ago and I'd noticed a huge change and that was the moment where I'm like, Whoa. This is like what photography can do. Like, can capture like these really incremental, like growth moments in childhood. And then like you look at your. I had spent time reflecting on my family albums, like get old my old shoeboxes out and look at photos that would absolute dog shit. But like, they're just perfect in their own way. And then that was my, that, that was definitely my connection and where I was like, wow, this is like the power that photography can have on people. So yeah, just photographing my son and reflecting on my own childhood, like albums, I was just like, oh God, this is like what I can be doing now. So then it didn't make sense at all then to follow the agenda of like expectations of these pretty wedding photos because that's. They're not going to age like that. You know, say in my talks, I want to take photos that age like red wine. So you might look at them and they might go, oh yeah, they're cool. But then like in five years time it'll make so much more sense, you know, and it will just age better. So yeah, they were the moments for sure. [00:23:44] Speaker B: I think that's interesting because it's. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find that digital photography, when it's pristine and you know, everything is on point, it kind of captures a moment in time that doesn't age. But like you said, the analog stuff tends to age like red wine, like fine wine in that and even prints that will slowly deteriorate and patina, the colors will fade and it changes that whole experience. And I remember when I was a kid growing up, my nan always had a camera she and I think we talked about on the show. She had a 35 mil, just a point and shoot with the cube flash that spins on the top. And she would always cut everyone's heads off in the photos because, you know, she thought she was, she was looking through the viewfinder, but I don't think she was. I think she had both eyes closed. But. And at the time, it used to frustrate me looking at the family photos that there's all these photos that, you know, crooked. But yeah, you're right. Now you look at them and they are dog photos, but they mean they have so much more emotion and history attached to them because it almost feels like the photo has aged with me. [00:24:54] Speaker D: And what a beautiful thing, like the fact that she's cropped the heads off. Right? [00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [00:24:59] Speaker D: It's almost like a beautiful characteristic of her, you know, like you said, probably had her eyes shut. You know what she was doing. But that says more about her, you know, so it's really special that those images come from her and her perspective and her characteristics. And it's just like the artistic thing. It's like everyone who takes a photo, essentially, it's like a self portrait in a way. Or like any artist who creates any bit of art, it's a self portrait of them in some way. So I think it's like, really interesting when you look at it like that. And there's nothing relatable about perfect, too. That's the other thing. Like, when everything's perfect and clean and pristine. Like, no one's life is like that, you know, the imperfections, I think, are the things that make it human. And like, I think humans are so weird and so quirky and there's so many things that we do that just doesn't. Doesn't make sense. But everyone steps back because it's normal. But when you actually look at it like a wedding, like as if it's the first time you've ever seen one, which is what I try and do now. I walk in and go, fuck, this is weird. Like, it feels like a cult, but it's like little things pop up and there's. You're like, everyone just moves over here and sits here like it's nothing. And this just happens. And like, everyone's just like, yeah, that's fine. I'm like, it's not. It's weird. But like, when you start looking at weddings like that, it's interesting because then you start to see more things that, like, make it human, you know, rather than just being this big show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know, I just find humans interesting. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. As a street photographer, I see that. I see that because it's not perfect. There's no posing. It's not for show. It's just people trying to survive. Yeah. On this spectrum dust as we rotate around, a nuclear explosion, you know, that sort of thing. It's just. It's weird. It is weird. It's very strange. And so when you made the jump from digital, from your Canon, what was the first analog camera that you bought yourself? [00:27:00] Speaker D: So my. I think, like, everyone. I had a Pentax K1000 for, like, eight years. So I've had it forever and I've still got it. And I still shoot weddings with that one, but I've only just made the jump. I've always sort of shot film, like, on the side for like the last five Years. Like I've always been passionate about it and like I go through phases where I'll bring a film camera to a wedding and shoot a couple of roles. So I've sort of like relationship with like film photographers and relationship with their film cameras. It's like, it's. It's interesting because you go through phases where you love something and then you'll get rid of it and then you'll bring something else in. So as your workflow and your needs change, different cameras suit that. So I've had a lot of different film cameras over the years. But I think the first like proper film camera that I bought for myself where I started shooting at weddings was a Pentax 672. So medium format 6x7 could do double exposures in the camera. And it had this 105 2.4 lens on it which I think is an equivalent of like a 50 mil 1.2. And it's just like, God, like that lens. But it's. That camera is an absolute boat anchor. It is so heavy and it's not subtle in any way. The shutter, I remember reading an article about it, it said that the shutter, you couldn't handhold it at a 60th of a second if you're a smaller frame person because the shutter would like vibrate in your hand like a recoil on a shotgun. So I love that camera but it's like not conducive to my workflow at all anymore. So I don't have it. But my. I'm actually changing. I'm halfway through a restructuring my gear now. So I've gotten rid of a few cameras. I'm getting something else this week. So I'm sort of like, do tell. [00:28:47] Speaker B: What are you getting? So yeah, Christmas present. I love it. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep, yep. [00:28:54] Speaker D: So I'm going through a bit of a restructure in my analog gear because I've shot maybe five weddings all on film. Like. Oh, like recently. All on film. And you start to realize what works and what doesn't. So you start getting rid of some things, bring new things in. So yeah, that's always an exciting time. [00:29:11] Speaker B: So what are you gonna get? What are you gonna get? Can you tell us? [00:29:14] Speaker D: It's bittersweet because I have to get rid of something to get this one. But I'm going to get a Mamia 7 which is the, like a rangefinder. I'm just falling in love with the rangefinders because it sort of suits that fast paced documentary approach that I have. So mami. A 7 with the 80 mil lens but unfortunately I have to get rid of my Hasselblad 500cm for it which is my. It's the. What I took this photo behind me on like years ago in the States and heaps of my photos in the house are printed on that camera. I love that lens. But it's just that TLR is not as fast because everything's reversed because everyone. Yeah. So it's hard for me to do my documentary sort of approach. It's great for landscapes which. But I just don't shoot much landscapes anymore. I love people and fast paced moments so the Mamius 7 will be much better for my workflow. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah, landscapes have the patience to let you sort your out while you're composing. [00:30:08] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And I just don't. I'm more interested in people than places so I want to work with people and having that fast pace option is non negotiable for me. [00:30:19] Speaker B: I just want to jump to a comment in the chat. So David. G'day David from San Francisco Bay Area. What time would it be in the States at the moment? [00:30:29] Speaker A: Well, apparently it's arvo but he had to Google arvo because Elena asked him what time is it and she said thanks for joining us during your arvo. And he said I had to Google arvo. [00:30:40] Speaker D: So. [00:30:43] Speaker B: For anyone else watching along at home, arvo is an Aussie koku. No term slang for afternoon. Yeah, for afternoon. But yeah, David has said I heard a good quote on analog talk. Shooting digital is about the camera, pixels, button updates, etc. But film photography is about being present. How do you feel about that one, Joel? [00:31:04] Speaker D: I strongly agree. I think that was the whole reason, one of the reasons why I got so attracted to film photography when I first started because you would like you hear it now, like when people shoot digital they look at their photo and they go oh that will look good. And you're like no, no, it's got to look good now. You know, like it will look good after I get on the computer and do my thing to it. Whereas with film, like it's funny, me and my partner talk about it, I just go, I don't know. Hopefully, you know, hopefully it'll look good, you know, because that's, that's the only control you have over it. And I think it's, I've talked about, talked about this at bfob. I think digital photography now because there's so much like all cameras are great, you know, it doesn't matter if you're shooting Canon, Sony Nikon, Lumix Whatever. Like they're all great cameras, they all do a good job. But it's like, it's really hard when you have no restrictions and you can do anything. It's hard to work out where to go. Whereas with film, like if you want a certain look, you have to know what camera you're shooting with. You have to have the right format, the right film stock. And it's like you have to really do research into it. But then once you get that look, you can't change it to be something else, you know? [00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:15] Speaker D: So it's like it once. Once. It's that, it's that. So you just got to re. I love that part of film photography where you research. Like it makes more sense to research cameras and lenses and film stocks because that's the, that's the end result. Whereas with digital, they're all good. You can just get anything, they're all going to look good and you can edit it to be whatever you want. Whereas I think film, you need to be a lot more intentional with what you shoot. And I love that, you know, And I think that restrictions is like the birth of creativity anyway. Like, if you can do anything you want, you don't know where the start. But if I walk into a room and I've got 200 speed film and it's dark as, then I gotta make it work, you know. And I love that part. That's when you start to get creative because you just can't go, oh, I'm just gonna bump up the ISO and make it look like what I do outside. It really boxes you in. And I think that's, you know. Yeah. Restrictions of the birth of creativity for sure. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker B: It's a really great way of looking at it. I even found, you know, I. I've got a fridge full of film and I'm too scared to take it out A. It's mostly expired, but I'm sure it still produces fine quality pictures. But I'm more worried about the cost of getting it processed and scanned. [00:33:29] Speaker D: Yeah, you know, there's definitely more places popping up now doing it. I definitely noticed that there's a huge influx coming back. I think the hardest thing is the, the film is not cheap and it's there. It's like feeling far between at the moment because of the embargo with Russia. So they've got like all the silver nitrate which makes all the film. So that's why I like, that's why I like. I think whenever all this started, the prices of Kodak went up. Massively, because the silver nitrate limitations are much less now. [00:34:07] Speaker C: Wow. [00:34:07] Speaker A: So that's crazy. [00:34:08] Speaker D: Yeah. There's a new lab that's opened up in Sydney and they're doing same day processing and scanning for $10. So. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Wow. [00:34:17] Speaker D: Yeah, it's coming back. Like when I get my stuff developed, it's roughly $17 a roll that's developed and scanned. So, you know, it's like, yes, it's cheaper to do digital for sure, but like it's. I think the beauty of film too is like you get 36 photos a roll and every time you hit that. Well, it depends on what you're shooting, obviously, but every time you hit that shutter, it costs you money. So you're not just going, you know, you're being more intentional. And I think whenever I went through periods of shooting film over the last 10 years, when I'd shoot weddings, I'd notice my wedding amount on my digital cameras would drop heaps. I'd shoot heaps more intentionally. So instead of shooting three and a half thousand images at a wedding, I would on average shoot 1200 to 1500 and I'd deliver like 800 to a thousand. So my strike rate just got so much higher, which made my post processing time a lot quicker because I'm not culling three and a half thousand images. I'm like, really get rid of a couple hundred, you know. So, yeah, I think it's. There's so many good things that you can learn from photography and there's just like. I know. I think digital photography kind of makes it harder because there's just all this on there now. You know, there's just like face tracking and all this crap that it makes, it just makes you a little bit more dumb as a photographer, I think, because you're relying on that to do it all, you know. [00:35:43] Speaker A: So. Yeah, where. [00:35:44] Speaker D: Yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to try and open that up too hard unless you want me to, but. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Later. Yeah, we've been talking about a little bit actually, because it's come up. It's come up a few times now. [00:35:55] Speaker B: It has, yeah, we talked about it yesterday afternoon. Justin, I. I had a phone call yesterday with next week's the Camera Life podcast guest Nick, and we were talking about. We're just talking about photography in general and I kind of wish I was recording that conversation for the show, but anyway, and we were talking about that whole, you know, spray and pray kind of mindset where you set it to burst and you point your camera and you, you know, you're pretty sure you got it in focus and you just let the camera rip. And there's a, there's a time and a place for that. You know, that's why they're on cameras, because some photographers demand it and need it, especially in the sports and action field. And you know, Justin uses it on his cannons when he's shooting bikes because he's got a tiny second when that bike and the rider comes around from behind a tree to go around a berm to then take off again. He's only got those few seconds to grab that shot. Yeah, but we were talking about how even the spray and pray side of things has changed. You kind of don't even need to pray anymore because the camera is so clever, knows what to look for, it predicts what you want to be looking for and it even starts photographing those predicted items before you even touch the shutter button. Yeah, you know, you've got this pre shoot modes, you've got AI driven, what was it, deep learning, neural networking in the Canon. It does all the thinking for you. And like I said, there's a time and a place for that, but it does complicate what is essentially pointing a light box at a subject and opening it up for a second. [00:37:30] Speaker D: Yeah, I find it, I find it really, really difficult. Like when I was teaching at BFOP and doing shoots, it's like, obviously everyone's rocking up with like R5s and all these crazy lenses and I've just got like a mechanical rig from the 80s, you know, and everyone's like, oh, what, what, what about this setting? I'm like, you got three settings to worry about. Shutter speed, aperture, ISO, that's it. And focus, you know, like, that's it. And like everyone gets so caught up in like having all these things attached. Like there was a moment at BFOP where I had to create a photo in like two minutes, like a wedding photo. And they gave me like a Nikon camera, right? Oh my God. This thing was on high speed, like continuous focusing, like, and I was like, can you just switch it to manual focus and F8 and like single point with a flash, please? And it was, how do I do this? It was like a minute and it was like a two minute time I had to take this photo and I swear a minute and a half. I was like, I don't know, like, just set it to like the basic things, please. And I didn't get the photo and I was like, fuck. That was a really stressful experience. But it's like everyone's like always going into those big things and it's like that's what makes a good photographer. I think everyone should start off shooting film because it makes you familiar with the basics. And then once you learn the basics, those optional extras of like tracking and high speed focus and all that stuff, it's like, it's a tool, you know, for when you're shooting things where you need it, you know. Whereas I think people just use it because it's there. And I think that's just like, is not going to make you a better photographer at all because it's just idiot proof. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Just go, have you got any, have you got any autofocus film cameras? [00:39:17] Speaker D: I got one. Contacts, G1. That's it. Everything else is manual focus. [00:39:21] Speaker A: So you have an inverter. Like you never got tempted to just get the, get the best of the best. Not like sports film camera that can blast off a roll in a couple of seconds. [00:39:31] Speaker D: No, see I shot, I've shot with one of those. I think it was a Nikon F6 or something. So auto winding, auto focus rig and I shot and I remember shooting an engagement shoot on it like five years ago and I went through a roll in like 10 minutes. I was like, no, don't want to do this. It felt too similar to, to just digital. So like, you know, when you shoot digital, especially at weddings, you'll shoot something but you'll shoot three photos of it just because it's there. Whereas with film I always want cameras where I have to advance the lever because like you shoot and then that even just that conscious mindset of bringing the camera down and doing that, you're not picking it up and doing the exact same shot. You might move a little bit and recompose or get a different composition, but it will least force you to get something different every shot. So yeah, I don't do any. No auto winding. Like the G1 is auto winding and auto focus but it's still slow so. So I have to be like more intentional with it as well. So. But I know there's people that shoot weddings on Canon 1V's that are just like the exact. They feel the exact same as like a 5D mark one and it's auto winding with the same settings and same screens and same lenses. If you just filming back, I just, I don't want that experience because it's not. Doesn't feel like film to me. It just feels like digital cameras where I'm just putting film, you know. And then it just, yeah, just doesn't Feel right to me. [00:41:03] Speaker B: And I think there's a lot to be said and we've talked about this on the show before, but I think there's a lot to be said about learning the basics, going back to basics, even if you're getting too, for those listening along, if you're getting too caught up in camera settings and, and, you know, modes and then just, you know, yeah, cut it, cut it back to basic and just focus on your exposure triangle. You know, just keep it really simple. Because at BFOP and at other events too, and I often host street walks in Melbourne and group events, I get asked very similar questions repeatedly. And it's about what, what settings should I do, what ISO should I put this in? And I think if you, if you're asking that question when you're carrying around, you know, five, six, seven thousand dollars worth of camera gear, you're asking the wrong question. [00:41:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:41:53] Speaker B: You know. [00:41:56] Speaker A: Actually, that reminds me. So I went to a talk at the Bendigo Camera Club the other night. First time I've been to a camera club ever. It was, it was cool. So Glenn Lavender, who was at bfop, do you know, did you cross paths with him, Joel? [00:42:11] Speaker D: Yeah, I think we've like crossed paths and chatted a few times. Yeah, he's a champ. He's very funny. [00:42:17] Speaker A: He is a champ. He is very funny. He gave the same talk at the camera club that he gave at Beef up that I missed, like his main stage talk called Dog Car Window. Anyway, we're going to get him on the podcast to get him to talk about all that sort of stuff, but he had just done a 17 day photography tour in India that he led, like took eight people over there and they took photos all over the place and just, just went nuts. And so. But he said he was like, for 17 days, he said, I'm not lying. I 99 of the time my camera was on 5, 6, 2, 50th on auto ISO. [00:42:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:42:55] Speaker A: And he just used exposure compensation and he was just like, I just left it on that. He's like, all I was thinking about was what focal length, like where do I want to be and what do I want to capture? So what lens do I need? And he's like, I didn't, I didn't worry about my camera settings. I didn't care. [00:43:08] Speaker D: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And when I shot digital, it was all aperture priority, you know, and exposure compensation. So, you know, because it's just easy. I'm worried on, I'm worried about what I'm photographing, not the Settings that attached to it, you know. But I think now I have to be a lot more conscious of it because film isn't as forgiving in post. But it's like I just walk around, just try and stop it down as much as I can. So like F8 to F11 and just do zone focusing and just, just worry about composition and moments, which I think is like much easier. It's funny, like when I was teaching my shooting couple workshops at bfop, like I was working so much quicker than everyone else was. I don't know if that's because I'm more seasoned in it, but it's. But it's definitely because I've got heaps less to worry about than what those guys do. You know, I think once you set the exposure and everything's going to be focus, I just worry about composition and looking for moments. You know, everyone would be shooting, looking at their camera and I'm like, you're missing. That's happening right in front of you every time you look at that. I almost brought gaffer tape to my second shoot because I was like, I want to tape up everyone's screens because they just get caught up in looking at it present. And especially when you. Yeah, it's just being present, you know. [00:44:28] Speaker A: I mean, we've, we've done it. We've both done it. I'm sure at weddings, gym, where we've. We've been trying to problem solve something with a camera and we're like, fuck, that's happening. Or that, you know, like, you know, and you run across and you try and. But you were, you know, you were sort of trying to. And probably trying to problem solve something that wasn't, you know, maybe we're trying to get something right as opposed to like, it wasn't like there was a. Just get with the camera, but we're like just trying to figure something out, you know, like, can we get this better or make that look better? And then you realize off in the corner of the room someone's doing the worm or whatever and you're like, oh, no, yeah, over there. And yeah, yeah. [00:45:03] Speaker B: And I think that's a lot of that is the, the appeal of that. Not, not. What do they call it? Chimping, is it? Chimping is the term. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that was used to get talked about all the time, but it hasn't been around in the photography vocabulary as much later. [00:45:18] Speaker B: I've only heard it a couple of times out in the wild. But I like the appeal of cameras like that new Leica that They announced a couple of weeks ago that doesn't have a screen. It's just got the ISO dial in the back like one of their old film cameras. And when they brought out the Fujifilm X Pro 3, the. The rear LCD, and that's a rangefinder style with a hybrid EVF. So you can turn off the EVF and just have an optical viewfinder with that, which is. It's not film, but it's pure. But you could, you would close the screen. The screen was permanently hidden unless you unfolded it so you couldn't have it so that the screen was always on the back. You actually had to fold down a panel to look at the screen. And so the, the temptation to look at every shot was removed without extra effort, you know, and I, I like that. I think there's a lot to say for being present, being in the moment, not missing the shots. And I remember even Justin, when you did your very first JPEG challenge and you, your 30 day challenge and you recorded a video every day of you being out and about with your camera, shooting black and white JPEGs or just JPEGs to try and get yourself to look at different things. And I remember sitting, and I told you about this. Sitting here watching, going, the shots right there. Stop looking at your camera. The shots right there. [00:46:38] Speaker A: What are you doing? [00:46:39] Speaker B: You know, because you're wandering around going, oh, I don't know what to shoot. I don't know what to shoot. Yeah, you know, and it's a trap. We all fall into. [00:46:46] Speaker A: It is. But also at the same time in that. I know, because I was reviewing the videos to edit them and I'd watch myself. There was shots that I didn't take. You would have thought I was shooting film. There were shots that I like, got composed. Yeah, I'm breathing. And I was like, nah. And I walked off and I'm like, did you get a digital camera? Why didn't you just take. [00:47:07] Speaker D: Maybe it would have looked. [00:47:08] Speaker A: But I was, I don't know, was in this real mindset of, like, these photos are going to get shown on this video and people are going to see them and I don't want them to see something that's. That's no good or like, you know, I put all the photos on there. So they did see plenty. That was no good. But, you know, I was trying to make something good. And yeah, that was. I watched it a couple of times. I'm like, man, why didn't you just click the shadow? It's like, you're an idiot. [00:47:33] Speaker C: That's funny. [00:47:34] Speaker A: It was funny. [00:47:35] Speaker B: I just want to jump to a comment. Another comment from David Joel. I'm assuming your clients know you ahead of time, that you're know that ahead of time that you're a film photographer. Have you lost jobs because of that? When people. You deny shoot film, right? [00:47:53] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a good question, actually. So I make it very known obviously on my website and on my social media that I shoot film. I think definitely, like, people who don't have an understanding of photography would think that it's more risky, so there would be that fear factor attached to it. I actually think it's safer than digital photography. And what I mean by that is explain, explain is that if my digital camera shits itself, what am I? How do I fix that? You know, I have no idea what's going on in the motherboard with all these chemicals. Ones, like ones and zeros. Stuff where film doesn't work or if a roll of film doesn't catch on, I can feel it, you know, I can problems solve. I can troubleshoot stuff on the spot. And if you've been photographing for long enough, you don't, you know, you don't need to look at your screen for photos, you know, So I never looked at my screen when I was shooting digital anyway because I knew stuff was in focus or exposed, right? So I'm just taking out an extra element which is like, you know, I'm just trusting in a chemical process. And there has been. There's been one job where I've shot roles and they haven't turned out. But that is a conversation that I have with my clients, you know, but prior to booking is like, you know, this is the risk that you take on involving with film. Like, there is a chance that some things can't work out for mechanical reasons that are out of my control. But that's just the risk that we like that we roll, that we roll with. But like, it's like, also, I keep very good care of all my gear. I make sure that it's all working before I shot roll. I shoot it all my gear regularly to make sure that it works. And you know, and sometimes the beauty of film and like, we've all had these experiences that mistakes turn out to be like some of the coolest shit, you know, like, there's definitely been photos that I've shot where like, I'll advance a role and it might not advance the whole slide and it accidentally double exposes half the shot with like, like this weird bag, like, glistening bag over the top of the back of someone's chair and it's like this beautiful. It's like it's its own piece, you know? [00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:02] Speaker D: So I think beautiful accidents sometimes work out to be the best shots. And I think that's what I've experienced with shooting film, whether it be for weddings or personal. Like, I'll shoot something, I go, that's going to be a good shot. And I get it back. And I'm like, yeah, turned out exactly what I think. But this one here. Holy. That turned out so weird. I never expected that. So I think I'm going to bring. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Up some of your photos while you. While you're talking about this. So. [00:50:25] Speaker A: Okay, that's a good idea. [00:50:27] Speaker B: This is from some recent. So we've got here. This is Joel's website, everybody. Barefootandbearded.com. and you can see here some of the photos. You've got a double exposure one down here. [00:50:40] Speaker C: Yep. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Which is really an interesting. It's really an interesting composition, isn't it? There's so much going on. [00:50:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:50:48] Speaker B: Overlap of conversations. It's wonderful. [00:50:52] Speaker D: I talk about double exposures in my talks where I talk about the two inspirations that I bring together for my doubles are MC Escher. He's like a visual artist, where he. Like, if you're familiar with MC Escher's illustrative work. But then also, where's Wally? So if you bring those two together, that's what I like to think that my doubles look like. Because when you look at doubles, especially when they're like, that one's not particularly busy. I think I've got a section like, right down the bottom which is called Seeing Double. And it's like shitloads of double exposures. But the more you look, the more you see. So I find it to be a really interesting, like, way of molding moments. Yeah. There's another one there too. [00:51:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker D: So. And I think it's cool. Like, I've. I've given these to couples and it's really interesting hearing what they have to say because, like, I might shoot one scene over here, then go shoot another one over there. But then what you do by that is, like, you get photos of people in one frame that would have never been in the same photo together. You know, like, I can go photograph the bride's dad and then go photograph the groom's friend. And like, that would never be in a photo together. But how special is that to get that? [00:52:00] Speaker B: So I think. [00:52:02] Speaker D: Interesting, the happy coincidences of double exposure. Some of them turned, some of Them turn great. So you just like. It's the curiosity and just experimenting. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Talk to us about this shot here. That's. That's obviously. Was the film partially exposed? Was it. Is that what's happening here? [00:52:21] Speaker D: That was years ago. That was on Cine Steel 50D with my Pentax 672 and so old cinema stock. And I think the. I. I hope no one, like someone correct me if this is wrong, but I'm pretty sure if flares are colorful like these, it's coming through the front of the lens. And if it's white, it's coming from the back of the camera. So it must have had some sort of flare or coming through the front. But the thing is, with that cine steel film, they're removing REM jets and all that sort of stuff. So you can get these weird artifacts like collations and stuff. And I think that, yeah, again, just happy coincidences that you'll just never expect, you know. [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I've shot with some Sydney Steel stuff. It's beautiful stock. [00:53:06] Speaker D: Yeah, I love it. [00:53:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Really? Yeah. So what is your go to. What's your favorite film stock at the moment? What's. What's the one that you gravitate, gravitate towards? [00:53:15] Speaker D: It's either Ilford HP5 at 1600, so pushing that two stops, or Lomo 800. That is great. [00:53:24] Speaker A: Great. [00:53:24] Speaker D: Like really, really good. I think, like most photographers, I have an obsession with portrait 400, but when I started shooting Lomo 800, I started seeing some insane colors that come out of that. So only just recently, this has only been over the last couple of weeks so. So Lomo 800 is definitely my favorite color stock. And then Ilford HP5 at 1600 is just textbook. It's going to always look good. [00:53:50] Speaker A: Do you do any editing of the scans that you get back and if so, how? Like, how much? [00:53:58] Speaker D: Very? Like, pretty much no. Pretty much, no. I'd say 95% of the time I don't touch them at all. But if I get them back, and sometimes the scans I get back from the lab, especially with square stuff, there might be a bit of a black border down the side that they haven't cropped completely. Completely. So I'll just like crop it. I might change the crop in general. Like, I might shoot a 35 frame and like, I'll crop it to like an 8 by 10 to make it a bit more square. So pretty much it'll be cropping, straightening horizons. That's it. Like, I won't change anything to do with the tones, contrast. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:54:35] Speaker D: Nothing. It's just as is, you know. And that's where I have a really good communication with the lab that I go to. I want to make sure because that they essentially do the editing, you know. So I really want to make sure that I have a certain look that I've communicated with them of what scans I like to get back from them. [00:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really good point because. [00:54:54] Speaker B: A lot of people don't realize that, that the lab will aim for the exposure that they think. [00:55:00] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Works. Yeah. Talk to us about the 16 by nines because we covered on in our news section a number of weeks ago now that Jeff Bridges has partnered with this. The actor Jeff Bridges has partnered. I can't remember who he's partnered with. And they're making a wide. They're remaking a wide. Was it the wide Lux? [00:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:55:24] Speaker B: He's remaking a new wide Lux film camera because he loves film photography and he's been shooting wide 16 by nines like this for, for decades. He's a, he's a huge lover of photography. Tell, tell us about what sort of a camera you're using, what sort of film, how you're achieving these wide frames. [00:55:45] Speaker D: So this is bittersweet because I don't have this camera anymore. I recently just got rid of it, which was a very difficult decision because it was a dream camera of mine forever. But it's a hassle. A Hasselblad xpan with a 45 mil lens. So it's a very interesting aspect ratio to get used to. It took me a while to get used to because essentially what it is, it's. You're almost shooting two full frame negatives. But you know when you're like shooting photography and you have like a 35 mil lens on, if you've been doing it for long enough, you can perceive eye lines of what's going to be in the void. Pick camera. This one was difficult. It was because essentially what it is, it's the equivalent of a 28mil wide and a 45mil high. So when you're shooting you're trying to see that in your eye line before you pick up the camera. And it's very niche and like I love it because it's really niche. But because it's so niche I found that I wasn't picking it up all the time to photograph it. And it being an eight thousand dollar camera, I was like, seems like a waste to just have $8,000 worth of camera gear and not be Shooting it as much as I'd love and it is all electric. So there is the inevitability that one day the camera will just itself and you've lost eight grand down the drain because they're not making parts for him anymore. So I had a fear about that. I definitely had a good time with it and I shot it a lot when I had it, but it was something that I just found that I wasn't using so much, so. But the whole reason why I got it is because I'm massively inspired by cinema. And that 16 by 9 frame is just very conducive to that. It's anamorphic as well, so. Whereas the wide lux isn't. So you get distortion on the edges of a wide lux and it's a bit warped. Whereas the X pan is. What's the word? I forget what it is, but it's just like very linear. So if you shoot straight lines right towards the edge, they stay straight. [00:57:47] Speaker B: Let's correct it. Manage that. [00:57:50] Speaker D: Yeah. So it has that same. That aesthetic that it doesn't film. That's why every photo that you take on this camera just looks like it's out of a cinema frame. And I just strictly shot black and white. I tried some colors in it, but I just found that black and white was just the best option for it. It just kept it really documentary. And, yeah, I love the camera and I wish I could have kept it, but I sold it for something that I've always wanted. So, yeah, it's. It was a bittersweet. And like I said, I'm going through a big Carl at the moment, so I'm losing things that I love like this, but I'm getting new things that I love as well. [00:58:26] Speaker A: Was this something that you always wanted, a Leica? [00:58:30] Speaker D: It was, yes. [00:58:33] Speaker A: Tell us about it. [00:58:35] Speaker D: I've got it here just in case. [00:58:38] Speaker B: Just in case it doesn't leave your side. [00:58:40] Speaker D: It doesn't leave my side. So It's a Leica M42 with a 35 mil summicron. So it's like. I've got heaps of photo books here. Like. Like you said before, Greg, I'm very inspired by like, 70 street photography and, you know, having something that just been in. Probably been in the hands of someone from the 70s shooting street photography. And I really didn't want to make the jump because it's not a cheap jump to do. And I thought there's just got to be a. Like, it's got to be. Can't be that good, you know, they're boxes that hold film. Like, what's the big deal? But I think the whole reason why I jumped to it is because I shoot a lot of street. But I was doing it on a Nick on F3, and, like, my contacts, G1, and all these other little 35 film cameras that I have, but they were all really loud or not very fast. So if I'd shoot something in the street, you just hear this, and then people would look at you and you're like, it's not subtle. Like, you need that subtlety on street photography. And I want it in weddings, too. Whereas the trigger on this and the whole, like, it's very small. The lenses are small, Everything's really, really quiet, and I can be really inconspicuous. So I think that was the whole appeal of why I went to it is because I didn't want to be seen. And the Leica glass is something that I've just heard, you know, so much about, which I'm sure every photographer can relate to. And I shot a roller portrait, 400 of it, around Sydney, and got the scans back, and I looked at him. And initially my initial thoughts was like, oh, it's just another camera. Which it is. It is just another camera. It doesn't make every photo look amazing. But when I started looking at photos where there was a bit of a dynamic range in the image, so there was like, a lot of highlights, a lot of shadows. The details that it can keep in both of those, I was amazed with. Actually, I got this shot. I might send it to you guys. It's this shot that I got of these three people standing out in front of the Opera House looking into the restaurant. And obviously it's like light on them and dark in the restaurant, but you can see everything. And that's when I realized I was like. And it's all sharp because I shot it like F8. And I was like, oh, okay. This has proper depth to it when you capture something. And it's might only be something that people like us will be able to recognize, but it is something that I'm excited to pick up and shoot. And I've read, I've watched a lot of YouTube videos and a lot of interviews about these cameras, because I don't do stuff impulsively, especially when it's not cheap. I really did research into it, and someone just said, like, maybe the reason why Leica's renowned for being such great cameras is because it inspires you and it motivates you to pick up the camera more. So therefore you're shooting more photos and then you just become a better photographer because you're just photographing more, you know, and I think that's the, that's the process got very minimal amount to do with the actual camera and the technical ability of it. I think it's just the how it makes you feel. And I know that sounds so lanky because that's what I all like, as users say. And I feel like I'm becoming one of those people. [01:01:48] Speaker B: But I think we feel that about different gear. Like I shoot with a 12 year old Fujifilm X70 I showed you when we're in Bright. Yeah, yeah, it's my favorite camera. It's got a 12 or a 16 megapixel, you know, X trans 1 sensor. It's slow, it's only got an LCD, it doesn't have an EVF. But it's my favorite street camera because it just feels good. Yeah, it makes me want to take photos. It makes me want to stop and, and I don't shoot from the eye, I shoot from the hip. So I fold out the screen and I compose and I, you know, it makes me more mindful about what I'm doing. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's a really, really old camera. [01:02:26] Speaker D: So I think that's what it's about. [01:02:28] Speaker B: Now. [01:02:28] Speaker D: It doesn't have to be the best. I think it's just got to be the one. Like I said earlier in the chat, it's like the best camera you have is the one that you're most inspired to pick up and use, you know, regardless of specs and lenses and whatever. And that's the one that it's all mechanical. It's so basic and I love that. Like it's just so basic. There's two things. I've got three things I've got to worry about, you know, and I love that. [01:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah, what, what's your, what's, what's the camera for you, Justin, that makes you just feel good to use it. Like it just inspires you to at. [01:02:57] Speaker A: The moment, like that sometimes the Q3, but honestly at the moment, like the R3, a full size, A full size body. I really enjoy shooting with a pro sized body with full grip. I don't know why it's odd. Maybe it's because one of the first like really good cameras I had was a 1 dx mark 4 and it felt great to shoot with. And like since then some of my favorite cameras have always been the Nikon D5 and now the R3. They've all been pro bodies and usually their image quality isn't great. Like, they're always lower resolution. You know, it's not. That's not what it's about. But it's. I don't know, they feel great in the hand to shoot with. [01:03:51] Speaker B: What about you, Jim? [01:03:52] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I've only got the two Z8s at the moment. [01:03:57] Speaker B: Ah. [01:03:58] Speaker A: Which one of them is your favorite? Which one of them inspires you? [01:04:03] Speaker C: Not this one lives on the truck. [01:04:05] Speaker B: The black strap. [01:04:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:04:09] Speaker A: So, yeah. So you're. It's. For you at the moment, Jim, it's just the best tool for the job. And if, and if the best tool is a Z8, why wouldn't you have two Z8s? [01:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jim's showing his privilege. [01:04:24] Speaker A: Get a third one. [01:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, get a third one. Why stop at two? But I think it's a really good point and it's something that, you know, early days, FOMO and GAS were rampant for me and untreated. And today, these days, I'm much more interested in what's the camera that makes me want to shoot, that gives me that joy of photography. It's not wanky. It's really important because when you feel good about what you're doing with the camera in your hand, that's when you see what's really going on in front of you. You. That's when you see those moments. You're more mindful, you're more present, you feel comfortable. You've got your favorite camera in your hand. It's making you want to lift it and point and shoot, so to speak. I think it's really essential. And, and I think, Joel, like you said earlier, like, you know, you talked about how you use digital in the early days for your work, and you kept film to the side because you didn't want to make film photography feel like work. And I wonder if now, if you picked up a digital camera and use that for fun, whether that would feel like work again or whether that would just feel like it's for fun. [01:05:30] Speaker D: I think it would definitely still feel like work because it's like, okay, so I love film for probably all the reasons that every other film photographer does, which is like the process of using the camera, the aesthetic of the images, all that stuff. But one thing that is a huge plus that I'm not going to lie about is I don't have the edit, you know, And I think that was the part that I really hated about photography, was that, like, back in the old days, you'd have like, photographers would be photographers, and then they'd have. Like, there'd be gatekeepers and retouchers and distributors and all. Like, everyone would have their part. Whereas I think now it's like, as a wedding photographer or as a photographer in general, it's like you got to do everything. You got to market your work. You got to bookkeep, you got to email, you got to edit, you got to retouch, you got to blog. You're gonna be a website designer. And it's like it was all those things that came along with the digital component of shooting weddings that I just really didn't like. I didn't like sitting down and sitting in front of a computer six days a week. You know, it's like, I'm not doing. I want to do this. I want to be out shooting. And I think that's what I get out of film is like, I. I love photographing now more than I ever have, and I shoot every single day now. Like, I haven't done that over the last 10 years of my career ever. And I really thought that you speak to some photographers that are seasoned and be doing it for a while, and they just lose the passion for it. And I'm like. My passion just seems to be fucking growing out of my ears, and I just can't. I just can't stop it. Like, I just want to buy film and shoot every day. You know, as soon as we finish this, there's the people's blockade, which is like a big protest happening in Newcastle at the moment. I'm going to go down. I'm being photographing that for the last few days. So I'm sort of making, like a mini side project. [01:07:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I was gonna say, what are they protesting? What's. What's it about? [01:07:15] Speaker D: So it's like. It's like the biggest. Because Newcastle's got the biggest coal port in the world, so they're actually blocking off the harbor. They're getting people out on kayaks and making their own mini rafts, and they're going to block the whole harbor. And cops are very. Being very interesting. Over the last few days, I've photographed probably three rolls of it already, just documenting everything that's happening. So, yeah, it's like I say on my website, like, I'm a street photographer that shoots weddings, you know, and I love shooting weddings, and I wish there was more to photograph. It's a very interesting time to be a wedding photographer, but my dream is to be essentially people like Bruce Gilden and Fred Herzog, where I just photographed the world. And like, you know, I love to think one day I'll make a photo book. I love to think one day I'll have exhibitions and just be like, I'm trying to use the word artist, but I feel self conscious saying it because it sounds kind of wanky and I don't want people to think that it's that. But I'm trying to manifest that in myself that I'm an artist, you know, and trying to capture photos and the world around me like that. So, yeah, it's interesting. [01:08:21] Speaker A: It's. It's funny because I'm seem to slowly be learning from people like yourself. From people like psy. More than. Because I always thought that, you know, artists and, and they are like, don't get me wrong, like there are, there is a breed of human that are artists and they're different from me. They've got, they've got an inherent thing in them that's that I don't have. And I can recognize that especially, especially some, you know, amazing artists. You listen to someone in a. I play guitar, but you listen to someone that's got that in them. Truly amazing guitarists. It's a different thing, but I've learned a little bit and I'm sort of learning it that it's also something that you can, like you said, manifest, learn, channel. It's not, it's not exclusively in the realms of people that are born with this different way of thinking. Yeah, maybe, maybe I could never become what they are, but you couldn't. You can become. You know, it's like, I might never be an Olympian, but I can go and train to run a fast 100 meter sprint and I'll get better at it. And I could even one day call myself a sprinter. I just might never make it to the Olympics. You know what I mean? It kind of feels like that for me. [01:09:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:43] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [01:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:45] Speaker D: Well, like I said before, it's like I, I was never creative growing up in any way. It was all soccer and surfing, you know, and that was kind of it growing up. And like, never thought I'd have a creative bone in my. But I couldn't draw for like, I couldn't do anything. It was nothing in me like that. And then you just find those. [01:10:03] Speaker A: It's. [01:10:05] Speaker D: Everyone's got it, you know, and there's definitely people that are like, born with more of a sense of it, I guess. Like it's like part of who they are. But I think everyone has it, you know, and you just got to have that. It just might not be in your journey yet. Justin, like, your part, it's not that part of you yet where you're interested in going down that place. And I think that's where, like, artists talk about a lot, about following curiosity, you know, and it's like, what are you curious about? And it's like, once you become curious about that part, that's when it becomes innately a lot easier because you just want to learn it and you're just investing your time into it, you know, and it's so. I think size actually been one of my huge mentors and one of my closest friends. He was. I remember when I first started doing wedding photography, I spoke. I met him at a workshop in Perth where I was teaching and he was teaching, and Ollie Sanson from Bry's Atlas was teaching as well. And they were both idols of mine. And I remember I had this key moment. This is, like, probably been like a very pivotal moment in my career, actually, where I was sitting in a lodge with them and it was sigh and Ollie and I was sitting at the table and they were both in the kitchen just making coffee. And I'm just listening to what they're talking about. They're talking about light and, like, Caravaggio and painting and cinema and music. And I'm like, oh, my God, these guys aren't just, like, photographers that shoot weddings. Like, they. They see it so much different than everyone else does. And I started to see that there was, like, there's like, a secret recipe there of, like, being a little bit more invested into the artistic world and, like, all great art stolen, you know? And it's like, you see Ollie Sanson's putting out this. There's this business called Blank Portraits, and he does, like. It's like a photo booth set up at weddings, but they're inspired by, like, insane photographers back from the 60s and 70s. Like, who was that famous one who shot portraits of people with a white background? It was very simple. Gonna burn at my brain now. But it's just. He stole the exact same thing from the 70s, you know, nothing's original anymore. So it's just working out where the inspiration can be and where you can bring that through in your work. So, like, I'm. I think I'd like to think that if Bruce Gilden and Fred Herzog had a kid, that'd be me. That's my goal. You know, I want to be stealing their composition, their approach, and applying that to my work and how I see the world. So, yeah, it's just. [01:12:33] Speaker B: I think in doing that, though, you still bend it to be your own. [01:12:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:12:37] Speaker D: Like subconsciously. [01:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think also the originality comes from. We can. We can draw from the past and influences and mentors, but the bits about their journey that influenced us happened possibly decades ago. And when we apply their approach to our current world that we see today, that's where the originality lies, that things have changed. Fashion, you know, the city streets, whatever it may be, has changed. People are still fundamentally the same. But. And I think the original, for me, when I do streets, you know, I'm influenced by a whole bunch of different things, but the originality comes in that that moment didn't happen for those people in the 50s, 60s and 70s when they were shooting street. That particular moment that I'm looking at right now, that's about to unfold, and I can see them walking and they're about to pass through a shaft of light and there's a pigeon that's just taken off. And that. That didn't happen before that. That's my originality. [01:13:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:13:39] Speaker B: When I create, and I do call my street work art, because I'm documenting something that I saw and experienced and felt just like a painter does. They set up an easel, you know, at a beach, and they see a ship coming in to harbor, and they paint it, or they sketch it first and they paint it out. It's no different for me when I take photos. I'm just capturing that moment in time. And rather than. And I was an illustrator when I was in art school, rather than drawing it and taking hours and hours and, you know, agonizing over the detail, I now use photography. Photography to pinpoint that moment in time and grab it before it's gone. So, yeah, I think there is. Go on. Sorry. [01:14:23] Speaker D: Oh, I was just going to say photography overall is the art of observation. So it's like, all about being present and capturing what's in front of you. So if I look at a Fred Herzog image and I go out and I try and create the exact same composition, and I get it, it's still innately going to be different because there's going to be different people, different personalities, different things happening, especially with stuff compared from the 60s to the 2024, you know, like. And one thing I've noticed in my street work now is, like, I'm doing another side project called Dopamine, which is all just on phones. Like, the amount of images that I've photographed where I'm like, photographing people at the beach and. Or somewhere beautiful and they're on their phone. I just go, yeah. Oh, this is mental. Like, what a crazy, like, time we live in for that sort of technology. And that's, like, sort of very visceral to my beliefs. Like, I have social media blockers and all this crap on my phone because I noticed the effects on my mental health when I go down that. So that's like, a very personal project for me, too. So that's something I'm passionate about. So I think that's the thing. It's like, as an artist, that once you find that curiosity and that passion, you follow it. It's just easy. It just happens without you even thinking about it, you know? [01:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. Speaking of artworks, I'd really like to have a look at Jason Justin's latest batch of. Really? [01:15:41] Speaker A: Now you're ready for it. [01:15:42] Speaker B: I've got Joel here. Joel's got. You know, I've got an opinion. [01:15:46] Speaker A: I'm pretty nervous today, to be honest. I'm very nervous. I'm not feeling. I was feeling pretty good about last week's images. I'm not feeling great. [01:15:54] Speaker B: Well, we'll be the judge of that. [01:15:56] Speaker C: Where are they from? [01:15:58] Speaker A: These one. This is so. This is Vietnam again, like, so last week just. Joel probably doesn't know what we're talking about. After I did BFOP and did the workshop with Chris Hopkins. Yep. About doing, like, photo essays a week. A week or two after that. I mean, this is week four, so whenever that works out, too, I made the snap decision to start doing a photo loosely, a photo essay a week of exactly 12 images that need to make up a set. There's no set topics and. Or, like, themes or anything like that. I'm not heading out with a theme in mind necessarily. Usually I've actually been following finding the theme as I. As I shoot, as opposed to going out with, you know, I'm going to take photos of red things or whatever. And so, yeah, I'm going to do it for a full year and I have to submit them on the podcast each week. Wow. So it's like having homework and it's. It's. It's making a big difference in my photography already, but this week, I'm. [01:17:14] Speaker B: In what way? [01:17:14] Speaker A: Nervous. I'm just thinking about stuff more because I know. So not only am I putting it out into the world each week, I'm not putting it up on social media for someone to, like, give it a like or just move on. Like, each week there's been a. There's you guys and a photographer on here who's going to look at them live and then. Then like judge them. You know, it's. It's like, it is. It feels like bringing homework into a professor or something like that and having them and at the whole class looks at it together and judges you. [01:17:50] Speaker D: Wow. [01:17:51] Speaker A: And yeah, and it's actually kind of. It's kind of fun, but it's nerve, Nerve wracking as well. [01:17:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:56] Speaker A: So nice. [01:17:58] Speaker B: So what are you doing? [01:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'll bring him up. I'll bring him up, actually. And because I thought you were about. [01:18:04] Speaker B: To lead into an excuse, I'll bring. [01:18:06] Speaker A: This comment up at the same time and see whether that's. [01:18:09] Speaker D: No, no, no, it's not any levoids. It's gonna. I'm gonna have to look it up because it's gonna burn at my brain. But. Yeah, continue as you were. [01:18:24] Speaker C: Well, they like the, the white backdrop, but in like the little tent. [01:18:28] Speaker B: No. [01:18:30] Speaker D: Oh, he's huge. He's very, like, very famous. It's gonna burn me. Actually. You know what? I'm gonna look up the business. Yeah, I'll work it out. You guys get some Vietnam photos or let's start judging. Here we go. [01:18:47] Speaker A: So get. So get ready to judge. And basically, I don't. I don't tell you the theme. Let's see if it uncovers itself while you're looking or if I'm just really off with. With this. [01:18:59] Speaker B: Justin, just, just before we. We dive into the first one. For those on audio past podcast listening, is there somewhere they can see your photos online? Will they be on your Instagram? [01:19:10] Speaker A: Not yet. They're not on my Instagram yet, but they will be at Justin Castles. And we're also going to start putting them on the. The Camera Life blog, which will live. Which lives on the lucky website. So just stay tuned. We're. We're working on it. This kind of, like I said, it was a snap decision to do this project and it's got nowhere to live yet other than the podcast, so. All right, here we go. Hang on. Where's my. Where's my thing? All right, image number one. [01:19:42] Speaker B: And these are JPEGs. [01:19:43] Speaker A: No, this is the first week that I've. So the last three weeks they've been JPEG straight out of camera gel. And then this is the first week that I've done light edits to them. I'll tell you why afterwards. It was a disaster. [01:20:01] Speaker D: Oh, that's a cool one. I like that one. I like that one. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Look at Yelena's Guns. [01:20:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:20:08] Speaker A: She's. [01:20:09] Speaker B: Arms. [01:20:09] Speaker D: Yeah, she's jacked. [01:20:12] Speaker B: Hey, Yelena. Oh, that. Yep. [01:20:20] Speaker A: No one's seeing a theme yet? No, no. [01:20:27] Speaker C: There's no wheels in the first one. [01:20:29] Speaker B: Leading lines. [01:20:30] Speaker A: No. [01:20:32] Speaker B: What? [01:20:35] Speaker A: You guys might not be able to see that on the screen. That's Anthony Bourdain. [01:20:40] Speaker B: Is that that cafe he went to? [01:20:43] Speaker D: Is that important to the theme that it's Anthony Bourdain? [01:20:48] Speaker A: Sort of. Not really. [01:20:50] Speaker D: Okay. [01:20:53] Speaker A: It is kind of. [01:21:03] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. Is that Yelena still running in the background? [01:21:10] Speaker A: No, no. She was in one of the other images, though. But that's not the theme. That's. I'm realizing that on this small screen, it might be very hard to see the things in the photos that make it more interesting. [01:21:25] Speaker D: They look great, though. There's some good ones in there, for sure. [01:21:29] Speaker C: Great. [01:21:29] Speaker D: Sh. [01:21:37] Speaker A: That is all 12. [01:21:40] Speaker B: Okay. Can we go through them again, please? [01:21:43] Speaker A: No, it's not food. [01:21:44] Speaker B: No, it's not food. [01:21:46] Speaker D: No. [01:21:47] Speaker B: So is it to do with brickwork? [01:21:50] Speaker A: It's not to do with brickwork, but I can see how you would think that it is. I left some images out. I swapped them out at the last minute. I. It. [01:22:09] Speaker B: I really like that. [01:22:11] Speaker D: That's a great one. [01:22:12] Speaker B: Favorite. [01:22:17] Speaker A: This. That's where Elena is in the shot again. [01:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:34] Speaker D: I can't pick the theme. [01:22:36] Speaker B: Is it to do with the changing seasons in a day? [01:22:38] Speaker A: No. [01:22:40] Speaker B: Okay. [01:22:41] Speaker C: I feel like we need to stop guessing. [01:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the only. Here's. Here's a hint I could. I could give you, if we zoom in. [01:22:50] Speaker C: Ponchos. [01:22:52] Speaker A: No. [01:22:54] Speaker B: Tourists. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Yes. Tourism. And the relationship between tourism and locals was what I was going for. And I probably left out some of the more obvious images that display that. But, like, so this one, she's selling ponchos and things because it's raining and that, like, as soon as it starts raining, they get around and try and sell as many ponchos and umbrellas as possible. But also, tourists are sitting around undercover and also even going for a jog because you got to get your K's in even while it's raining. So it's like. It's. It's kind of like the. The interesting lot. And so here she's reading a tourist map. He's on his phone because he's waiting for probably a tour group or something like that. Like, he's. He's. He's working. She's touristing. Yeah, that's. That's kind of what I was going for in a lot of the. But as I uncovered the images. But I Left out some of the more obvious ones that probably would have highlighted it, I think. And that's why, like, Anthony Bourdain, this. This was a massive tourist that was the most popular bar Mi shop in Vietnam, I think, because Anthony Bourdain went there and now everyone goes there because he. On his. On his show. So it's a. It's a huge tourist thing and that's what it's called. And then. Yeah. And then just this one. So, like the. The here Laudry sign with the misspelled. But then a lady's in the background taking a photo. You know, you got the. I don't know, it's just. That's. That's what I saw anyway. That's where we're at. [01:24:35] Speaker C: That's cool. [01:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And even this one, like these guys doing their job, just hauling these tires, these scooter tires, and then she's taking a photo of them. Yeah, at this. This was a tourist location. Like this touristy lake thing that had signs and stuff. And that. But yeah. [01:24:57] Speaker C: Anyway, I think the photo, like, the photos are great. [01:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. [01:25:02] Speaker C: Even though we didn't get your. [01:25:04] Speaker A: Where I was going with it. [01:25:06] Speaker C: Yeah, we were going with it. But I think that, like, the photos are all. [01:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah, man, it was. It was a massive fail because I thought that it was going to be color. I thought I was going to do the set in color this week, and then I went to do it as a mixture of color and black and white, and then that wasn't working the way that I wanted, so I ended up leaving out a ton of images that probably would have supported the. The theme a bit better at the last minute. [01:25:28] Speaker B: Well, now that you've had feedback, you can. You can, you know, regroup and consider your photo, isn't it? [01:25:37] Speaker A: No, you submit. That's the. That's the submission. [01:25:41] Speaker B: You're done. [01:25:41] Speaker A: It's been judged and that's that. [01:25:45] Speaker D: I like the one before that. [01:25:49] Speaker A: This one? [01:25:49] Speaker D: Yeah, that's really good. I love how that's composed. It's really good composition. I love that. [01:25:56] Speaker A: Thanks. [01:25:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:25:58] Speaker C: It also might be difficult for us to see it through the screen. I think in, like, past weeks, we've looked at them on Dropbox, so then we can kind of also zoom in. Whereas, like, on these, like, the screens, half the size of my laptop screen. Whereas normally. [01:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A bit hard to get there. [01:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah, they look. [01:26:18] Speaker A: And they were all a bit. They were all a bit sort of wider this week, I guess. I don't know. [01:26:24] Speaker C: Did you shoot them all on the same camera? [01:26:26] Speaker A: No, this is the first time. There's a bit of a mixture on here. There's stuff from the R5, 2 and also the Leica, and there's a range of focal lengths as well. It's a bit of a weird. It was a bit of a weird week, and that's why I was gonna. I was gonna. So these are the first ones I've edited. They're pretty. They're lightly edited, but just some of them were color, so I had to convert them to black and white. And because I did that, then I had to convert them all to black and white using the same process. So I ended up putting the same on all of them rather than leaving them as black and white JPEGs. And. Yeah, it's. [01:27:03] Speaker B: So what have you learned from this week? [01:27:05] Speaker A: What have I learned? Allow yourself more time. If you're trying to whittle down photos into a concise set of 12 images, don't leave it till the last minute. [01:27:15] Speaker B: What have you learned about your creativity? [01:27:19] Speaker A: I don't know what about your sloppy. [01:27:21] Speaker B: Work ethic, but your creativity. [01:27:23] Speaker A: About my creativity? Yeah. I'm not sure I've learned that the. What you include, what you leave out makes a big difference. And I think I might have got that wrong this week. And so as far as creating a set of images that tell a story, I don't. Yeah, it's. It's not easy, but I think practice makes it, makes you better at it, for sure. Yep. And I think, yeah, you sort of need to give enough time to that to make it. I don't know. I think it's a. It's a really good practice that you could even do with old images and things. It's. It's been. I've said this a few times, but it's been really freeing not having to try and make one great image. It's more like a set of images. It's. Yeah, it's really fun. Like, I get to include images that otherwise I might not be that as stoked on, but it helps sort of support a story or whatever. And it's. I don't know, it's a different way of thinking about photography than, you know, when you think about moving beyond something like weddings or whatever to photography is art. You kind of think about, like, oh, each image has to be this art piece that's worthy of going on a wall. And whereas doing it like this, I'm like, no, it doesn't have to be like that at all. It's just a set of images. That, you know, say something hopefully. [01:28:48] Speaker B: And so do you think, Justin, that it makes you appreciate the stuff, those moments that you've captured that you would otherwise disregard or discard, potentially? [01:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like the. And it. And it. Then it changes the way you're shooting because you remember that from last time and you start looking for different things that are going to support. Support images rather than just, oh, that's, you know, I, you know, like tourists walking, you know, like, I not going to put that in anything, you know, like, that's not, you know, if you were like, oh, I need someone. Send me your ten best images. It's not going. That's not going to be one of them. But when it comes to putting a story together, it was useful. So, yeah, it's. [01:29:33] Speaker C: So it's changing the way you're calling things as well then. [01:29:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:36] Speaker C: Like how you're looking at them when you're coloring. [01:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah, when I'm, Yeah. Culling. And then. Yeah, then go out and shoot again. It's changing what I'm looking for, that's for sure. Because last week's set of images, you. I mean, if you go back and look at them now, there's no tourists in that. It's, it's. It's like last week's images were life in Vietnam. That's what I was going for. Yeah. Whereas when you get to the touristy areas in Vietnam, it's very hard to shoot without tourists in the shots. Yeah. But I was, yeah. Careful to try and do that for a lot of the images. But it was also fun not worrying about that or even playing on it and being like, no, I want tourists in the shop. This will be. Yeah, this will be fun anyway. [01:30:21] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. [01:30:22] Speaker D: Yeah. Curating is very difficult part of the process that I don't think people put enough effort into and. Or even think that it's important, you know. Yeah. [01:30:34] Speaker A: It is hard. Like, this is so. This is. I don't know whether I should show this or if I'm going to submit anymore. If I need to be done with Vietnam, move on to something new next week, in which case I could. But like to give some insight on. Like, so this morning, even just whittling them down to those was 75, 79. And there's great images in here that I wanted to share. Like, I was like, oh, I really love this. You know, that the thought that was going to be an opening image, the tourist boats, sunset and stuff like that. And I'm like, no, I can't have that. This abandoned castle that was obviously a tourist. Tourist thing that is no longer things. And I'm like, I love that. Gotta have that included. And so why don't you do a. [01:31:22] Speaker B: Second run with color? No, but you know what I mean. Like you for your own benefit, your own story storytelling and to have a concise set of images that do tell a theme in a different way. It's more about the color and the, the warmth in the day or the, you know, whatever it is that's, that's making the color pop. I might do yourself a second run and just see if you can compile. You take away the black and white ones, you can't recolor those, but I don't know, have a second pass at it and see what you can do with what's left of the color stuff. Can you still pull a story out. [01:31:57] Speaker A: Maybe for next week? [01:31:59] Speaker B: Excuses. [01:32:01] Speaker D: If it's inspiring you and you're. And you're feeling curious enough about it, you might find some links, you know. Yeah, maybe. [01:32:12] Speaker A: Anyway, thanks for bearing yourselves through my own personal photography journey of trying to become more creative. [01:32:19] Speaker B: No, I think we can all agree that we hope next week's effort is better. [01:32:26] Speaker A: I'm on board. I'm going to try and I'm going to try and be better. I'm going to try and do better. [01:32:30] Speaker B: You're doing just fine. Fine, my friend. It's. It's 33 minutes past the hour. I feel like a news. A news presenter on the abc. Just a reminder that you're watching or listening, preferably both. The the Camera Life podcast. This is episode 39. It's 21st of November, 34 days to Christmas, which for those of you with kids is terrifying. Especially if you've got older kids who can't tell you what they want because they can't look up from their screens. But this is the Camera Life podcast. It's Jim, Justin, Greg and we're joined by Joel Elston. Is that how we pronounce your surname? Elston or Alston? Alston Austin. Sorry, mate. And if you're watching or listening along, please let us know in the comments. What, where do you see your photographer? Are you an artist or do you consider yourself an artist or do you consider yourself an efficient photographer, good at nailing the composition and the moments. Oh, look at that. Ask questions in the live chat. How'd you do that? [01:33:36] Speaker A: I'm a technological marvel. We've got a lot going on. This is a high budget show. [01:33:41] Speaker C: I haven't any sounds yet other than the intro song. [01:33:44] Speaker A: No, don't no, don't. Joel, have you done any projects that have helped drive your photography forward? [01:34:00] Speaker D: Well I think the more I research on sort of like because I do work on my creative diet a lot. So I'm looking at photo books. I'm studying photographers from the 60s and 70s. I got a. You're sitting on a stack of photo books right now. And then I've got the two ones that I'm most absorbed on at the moment is Fred Herzog. So and when I look at those bodies of work, they're bodies of works that have been created over 20 years, you know and that's the long term goal. But I think what I'm doing at the moment is I'm trying to work out little sub projects. So I'm just doing one on Newcastle and photographing Newcastle how I see it and I'm just going to look at the work at the end which is be the end of summer. I'm just going to photograph this summer and do like a mini project on Newcastle in summer and see what I want to do with them at that time and see what they look at. I think the reason why photographers maybe won't look at doing sort of projects is because that you have this big expectation that it should be an exhibition or a photo book and then it seems too big and then you don't start. So I think once you just start things sometimes you've again you just follow that curiosity and you just see where you go. So I'm just photographing Newcastle and where I go at the moment and see if there's little projects that come together subconsciously. But I do these things called mini projects where I, I sort of have a, like a jumble system thing in my phone where I have all my cameras, film stocks, locations in Newcastle and time durations. So when I'm feeling inspired and I want to shoot I just go jumble on cameras, jumble on film stock, jumble on locations in Newcastle and then time duration. So it might go Leica Ilford HP5 at Newcastle Baths and you've got an hour, you know. So then I just go out and I just work within those limitations, see what stories I can find within that time and just photograph a roll of film in that time. Um, obviously it's different if I shoot with the Hasselblad I've only got 12 photos and if it gives me three hours or five hours to shoot 12 photos I'm being a lot more selective and looking for a very conscious theme. But if it gives me 30 minutes and I've got 12 photos then obviously I'm approaching it very differently. So I'm doing that at the moment when I'm. When I'm sort of just want to go for a walk and have no idea what I want to photograph. But at the moment that blockade's happening so I'm definitely invested in photographing that. But yeah, that's a really good way to sort of again, restrictions being the birth of creativity, it's like gives me limitations to work within. So I'm doing that at the moment a lot. [01:36:42] Speaker B: That's just made me think of an awesome Christmas gift. We should make them Justin, for lucky straps. They're not really a strap but a set of photographers dice that give you things. [01:36:52] Speaker A: It's interesting. I thought about the cards. A lot of people do cards and stuff but dice, I like dice. That's cool. [01:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Actually Sash, Sash just got. Sash loves Teemu and we often get parcels of random stuff and she got a dice for Christmas and it's, it's a gift dice. So if every side, you roll it and whatever side pops up, it tells you what to do with your Kris Kringle gifts. Pass it to the next person, unwrap it, put it in the bin. You know, it's got a whole range of stuff and it's like a 20 sided dice. It's quite big. Like it's 3D printed by you know, a 6 year old in China who gets paid, you know, 23 cents per dice. But besides that and my views on that whole problem, a photographer's dice that or maybe a set of dice like Dungeons and Dragons, they have all these different die and you roll the dial one tells you what, what sort of lens, wide, long, you know, whatever. Another one tells you to, you know, shoot raw, jpeg, black and white, you know, whatever. [01:38:01] Speaker A: I found one, there's already some made but I don't, I don't like it says I can't even. I'll. I won't bring it up but there's already some made. I'm just looking here. But it's got like. So it'll have shutter speed, ISO, distance aperture and then what direction to point. But it's sort of like that's not. I don't think that's really what is going to. Yeah, yeah. And it's basically like, all right, point south and shoot at 1/15 of a second at f 2.8 at a meter. So you know like that's not. No, no. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. I think we could do it, it. [01:38:33] Speaker B: Needs to get you out the door, not make you feel stressed. [01:38:36] Speaker D: Yeah, I definitely am. I'm getting been considering making these cards. I've thought about cards and doing it and just having them blank so you can write your own gear on them. But it be very film specific. I'd like to make it nice so it's like again, it's like what we're talking about with film earlier. It's like a very unique, like if you shoot with black and white film in this camera, you know what look you get. So you got to make that good in this location, you know? Yeah, it's definitely something that I've considering doing, making these cards. [01:39:08] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah, I think it's a good idea, you know, and it's just a, it's just a moment. It's like kind of reading your photography fortune in a way. You know, you shuffle your deck of cards and you flip out the top five and it tells your fortune for the day of your creative, creative journey. So it's. [01:39:24] Speaker D: Yeah, it's very cool. [01:39:26] Speaker B: It is cool. Very cool. [01:39:28] Speaker A: I have a question, Joel. It's going to be tough at the moment because you're going through a transition phase, but do you have a zombie apocalypse camera? You know, if the world were to come to an end and you just had to have one camera slung across your body with a beautiful leather lucky strap to face the end of times and document it, what would that be? [01:39:52] Speaker D: It just. It'd probably be the leica, the. This M4 because it's all mechanical, there's no batteries, it doesn't have a light meter built in it. But I've got this little TT artisan like hot shoe thing. [01:40:05] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:40:06] Speaker D: On top. So I just changed the settings and it, when it's good, it just goes green. But a lot of the time I'm just using the sunny 16 rule. [01:40:13] Speaker A: So I was, yeah. You know, I was gonna say at the end of the world you don't need light meters. It's just like, tell us what, what do they say? F8 and be there at the end of the world. [01:40:22] Speaker B: That's it. [01:40:22] Speaker D: Really? Yeah. [01:40:23] Speaker B: What's the sunny 16 rule for those listening along? [01:40:27] Speaker D: Well, so whatever, it's very helpful when you're shooting film. But if you shoot 400 speed film, for example, if you're out in bright light, sunny conditions, just outside when it's Sunny, you go F16 and your shutter speed should be what the film speed is. So if it's 400, obviously there's no 1 400th of a second. So you'd probably go to 1, 2, 50th. And the reason why you'd want to put more light into it is film loves light. Whereas with digital you definitely lose data in the highlights a lot quicker than you do in the shadows. So when you shoot digi, you can underexpose every shot by one stop and pretty much pull data out of the shadows. Fine, but film's the opposite. It loves to be shot bright. So in any, any sort of lighting scenario, whenever you're tossing up between two settings, I always just put more light into it when I can. So most of the time I'll shoot 400 or 800 speed film. So when I'm shooting outside, it's like mostly like F11 at 500, which is just going to be good. Pretty much most scenarios I go into and I'll just add an extra stop of light if it's under a tree, you know, just muck around with it. So yeah, it's, it's films quite forgiving when you give it a lot of light. Depends on the film stock you use obviously. [01:41:45] Speaker B: But yeah, very cool. [01:41:49] Speaker C: Joe, how many, like, roles of film are you shooting at a wedding? [01:41:52] Speaker A: Good question. [01:41:53] Speaker D: I think at a wedding. I'm usually shooting close to 20 roles at a wedding. I don't shoot it all by myself. I have my partner or my best mate who comes shoot to shoot with me, which is great because neither of them are wedding photographers. My partner isn't actually a photographer at all. So I actually think she's probably the best photographer I can ask for at a wedding. So I don't want wedding photographers to come shoot with me. I want people who are creative to come shoot with me, even if you have no idea about photography at all. So it's roughly around 20 and it changes whether it's color or black and white. I did one recently at the grounds of Alexandria. When we rock up, she had like a floral dress and like it was pinks and greens and all these beautiful colors. So I just was like, yep. Would you kind of shoot more color today? But if it's like sort of overcast and like there's not much depth to the images and it's quite moody, then I'll do a lot more black and white. So it just sort of varies on the day depending on what I think works best. But it's roughly around 20 to 25 shots, which I think works out. I sort of say to my couples usually get 100 photos an hour. So if you book me for six hours you're getting around 600 shots ish. You can go from there. [01:43:08] Speaker A: So yeah, if you have you had to travel since you've been shooting film. [01:43:14] Speaker D: Yes. And that's a whole another thing to navigate. [01:43:17] Speaker A: So with that. [01:43:19] Speaker D: So I've got this, I've got a little bag. It's called a dom dom key D O M K E bag and it's like an LED protective bag. So when you go traveling you put your film in that. I always ask for hand scanning. It's definitely. It's pretty good. In Australia they've gotten pretty good at it. They've. There's actually a lot of checking. So the overall thing with film is traveling with film is like the risk is it's getting X rayed and if you get an X rayed it can the damage of the film and like put these weird hazelines on it. So you always want to never put it in your check in bag because the scanners that they use for checking bags are hectic and it's always going to the film so you always put it in your carry on and when you're going through just to carry on little bag scanners there's actually some. There's one in Newcastle here at the moment but there's more coming out that are film friendly 100 so they won't film at all. [01:44:13] Speaker B: So this one in Melbourne now. It's Melbourne now. [01:44:18] Speaker D: Yep. So they don't affect film at all. So you can travel with 800 speed film and it won't affect. Affected at all. Which is great depending on the country you go to. Like I've thrown. I've gone. I've shot film in Faroe Islands so I was flying in and out of Guitar and London and all those places and it's very difficult to get them hand scanned all the time. Especially with this bag. If you put the film in the bag, if they're not going to hand scan and it goes through it just comes up as a big square with not like they can't see. So then they'll open it. They don't like that. So sometimes they'll open it and you'll explain to them like why you do it and then they'll hand scan it and then you're great. Other times sometimes they'll be like oh well no, it's got to go back through now take the film out and it's got to go back through raw. So the LED bag doesn't protect it completely but it does a pretty decent job. But what I can't. What I do whenever I can, Whenever I'm traveling, I'll try and buy the film there. When I, when I travel, fly into a major airport, there's generally, there's somewhere that will like a camera shop that will have some sort of stock or you just travel really low speed film places between, like traveling from here to New Zealand. You're pretty sweet. You're going to get it hand checked all the time. I'll take all my film there, I'll shoot it and I'll get it hand checked on the way back. We'll be fine. That if you're doing big trips, like every time I've gone to America, like flying to la, I'll just buy my film there and I'll get it, I'll drop it off at Richard Photo Lab in LA and get it develop there and get the negatives back. [01:45:51] Speaker A: Okay, so, so say if you were going to Japan or something, you'd be like, all right, I know there's sh, there's, there's, there's definitely film shops here. There's definitely places to get it scanned. I'm going to plan the, the tail ends of my trip to make sure I can do that stuff instead of having to travel with it. [01:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:46:08] Speaker D: So I've never like, yeah, places like Japan, like, obviously you speak to people who have traveled there, like, what's the, like what's the chances of it getting hand checked? Like, some people will be like, nah, don't do it. Like, they'll be real gnarly on it. But if it's easy, like in Japan, yeah, there'd be so many options to buy film and get stuff developed there. So it's like you might as well just take any film, have it before. Yeah, just part of the experience. And yeah, you support local businesses, you know, like it's pretty cool when you can get to do that sort of stuff. And by doing that every time I bought film in la, you'll be like, I'm from Australia, I'm going here. And they're like, oh, make sure you check that out. Because they're all photographers, you know, they all know where it is. So it's like, it's a cool way of like traveling. But yeah, like I'll try and take my film whenever I can. But if it's a bit risky, like, especially when I'm shooting weddings, like, I'm not doing, I'm not traveling with film. [01:47:01] Speaker B: Fair enough. [01:47:02] Speaker A: A good question here from David. I assume it's about what I think it is. He just said High risk scans. Question mark. I was going to ask back. When I've done some film stuff, there was different options for how you want it scanned that cost different amounts and stuff like that. Do you, do you get like super high res TIFF files scanned or do you just get the standard ones? Or is that something that most film labs do or. [01:47:27] Speaker D: Yeah, pretty much every film lab will give you an option. Some will just give you. Yeah, some will give high res tiff, high res JPEG or just standard. I just do standard. Standard is going to be like I always say to my couples, like standard will get you prints that are pretty decent, you know, but if you want to go big, I'll have the negatives and I can always send it back to the lab and just, and just do individuals. It just costs a lot. And like if you're getting high res TIFF files of every single photo and you've got 600 images. Yeah, it's just gnarly, you know, and like they don't need that. They don't need it that big. They're big enough to get printed in albums if they want to do an album, you know, anything like that's a four and even bigger, up to probably a three, I think. Fine. So anything bigger than that I just ask, like let me know and I can just get individual scans done, you know, and then I've always got the negatives there. So it's essentially the same as RAW files. [01:48:23] Speaker A: You store all your negatives. How do you store them? [01:48:28] Speaker D: So when I get them back from the lab, they come in an envelope and they've got like stickers on the front of the code names like 3692, 4, 6, whatever. And when I get the scans sent back to me digitally, it'll have those codes on them. And then after the code I'll just edit the folder and just go 3652 dash Sam and Kate wedding, you know, and then so when I need it, I'll go 362 Dash. It's in that folder. I'll find the negative. There's the negative, go from there. [01:48:57] Speaker A: Okay. [01:48:57] Speaker D: Yeah, but I've never revisited negs. It's just like worst case scenario, it's like, just doesn't happen very often at all really, for me. [01:49:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:07] Speaker D: So standard. [01:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah. It's the sort of thing you hope doesn't happen. [01:49:10] Speaker D: Yeah. You know, but you sometimes, you know, like every time I've traveled, like I went to New Zealand recently and I just shot the whole thing on film and shot heaps of Hasselblad stuff and I know that I'd want to get some stuff printed. So I just got all my Hasselblad rolls, which I think was four medium format rolls. I just got them all high res just so that if I did want to print anything, I'll just. I just got the option there. But a lot of the time you just, you know, printing is expensive. Unless you got your own setup is going to probably get you because they're still like five or six megapixels, you know, a megabyte, sorry, five or six megabytes. So it's like still big enough to like do something decent, you know? [01:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:49:50] Speaker D: You want to get it really big. Yeah, that's a, that's a high res issue, that one. [01:49:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:56] Speaker C: Joel, if you had to like adjust your prices up or down since like transitioning over from digital to film. [01:50:03] Speaker D: Yeah, I've. I only raised my prices a very small amount. I definitely am not making as much since changing the to film. But what I'm getting in return is less time on the computer, you know. So yes, shooting weddings on digital is just time, but it's fucking lot of time, you know. So it's a huge amount of time that I'm saving. So I'd rather cop a bit of a loss financially and have more time back in my life and know that images are going to come back exactly how I want them. So I only raised a little bit. And also like, I think with pricing in general, like it's not always pricing. You're pricing for a market, you know, like the market that want your work. And I think my. Ever since I've transitioned to film, my clientele has changed massively. It'll either be people that weren't going to book a photographer at all. And then they booked me like a month out and they're like, we didn't want a wedding photographer, then we saw your work and we need it. Or it's people that book in advance. And the people that book in advance are usually like people that are in the arts. Like they're graphic designers, architects, actors, whatever. Like I'm getting really quirky creative people that book me far in advance or people that never wanted a photographer that'll book me a month in advance. So it's an interesting market that I've sort of hit. I think that's a mix of it being on film, but also a mix of my style. [01:51:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think you said you, you're doing a lot less now. Like you used to have Your. Your. Your wedding business used to be pretty flat out, from what I could tell pre covered. And you're doing a lot less weddings now. Is there a number, an ideal number of weddings you'd like to be doing a year of all film? Is there a number in your mind where you're like, all right, gone to the all film thing? It's obviously gonna take a while to build that business up and. And be known that, okay, now I used to do this, but now I own only shoot film. It's a different thing. Yeah, it'll take a while to. To build up, I guess, a business around that. Is there a number you're shooting for of weddings? Of all film weddings? [01:52:12] Speaker D: That's it. So, like, to be completely vulnerable and honest, I'm not gonna sit here and act like I've got that. I'm just killing it, because I'm not, you know, like, wedding photography is in a very interesting time with cost, cost of living, and like, people getting married now. I. You notice a big change. It's either people that are getting married that aren't loaded are having much smaller weddings, or people that are having big weddings are just loaded, you know. So it's like, it's definitely a luxury at the moment to get married, I think. So I struggled a lot financially. I think I got to probably four months ago and I looked at my bookings and I had five booked. I'm just going to shut that door because that garbage truck. So I only had five booked, which was a very scary time because I've been running my business for 10 years and have always had probably perceivably 15 booked into the future. And then you sort of book out around 30 a year. But, yeah, I had five booked and I started panicking because I'm like, like, and then creating the work that I do now. I was doing the same thing on digital. And it's a really shit feeling when the work that you're creating is like what you've always wanted to create and you feel so passionate about it. But then you look at the books and you're like, that's not reflecting my success at all. So it's very internal time where I old me, the old Joel would have compromised on that and just shot what's in and fill books and just do another year, you know, and then I sort of get halfway through the year and I just sit in front of a computer six days a week and just don't want to be doing that with my life anymore. I'd rather shoot less and be more intentional with how I shoot it and shoot it how I know I best can. So I ended up getting a full time job which I've been doing about four months now. And that's what I do to survive. And then it means I can be much more selective on the bookings that I'm taking and like the ones that you have. I have full creative freedom because now it's like. And it's not a, oh, I've got an expectation to have this theme or this particular because I want to fill books. It's like, no, I just go in and shoot it my way now. Where money is a, is a side effect of my business now, not the necessity of it. And that's like the best feeling ever. That's why I think that I'm loving the work that I'm creating so much at the moment. I'm photographing every day because I have to pay the bills now. It's just for me. So yeah, yeah, it's. I've had a bit of a shift over the last six months just getting a full time job and definitely have that initial feeling of feeling like a failure. This isn't working. And then you look at the wedding industry online is very loud and everyone likes to make a lot of noise and bookings running out and you know, it's all that sort of stuff and I just don't want to play the game anymore, you know, Like I love getting weddings and weddings are my favorite thing to photograph. But it's a very, I don't want to insult the industry, but it's a very interesting industry to work in in, in a way of ego and noise and trends and you know, all that social media. It's just a very big energy, you know, and it's just not some place that I'm just, I just don't want to be in anymore, you know, it's like people that get a lot of success are the ones who aren't necessarily the best. They're the ones who make the most noise and I just don't a lot of noise with my work. I just want to do what I can for the people I shoot for, not for socials, you know. So it's been a, been a challenging time but ultimately I think it's been the best decision. So long, long winded answer to your question. But 10 a year versus 35. Yeah. [01:56:03] Speaker C: Appreciate you sharing that. It's. I feel like it's often not spoken about so much of that, that. Yeah, what the industry, you know, like people who are maybe popular aren't necessarily the, as you know, good at photographers as other people who maybe just put up their work. They're not doing all the extra crazy reels and stuff like that. Trying to get noticed. [01:56:27] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, it's. I've seen accounts pop up recently in the wedding industry and it's like they go. It's like their profile picture is like obviously a photo shoot. Like, they've booked someone photo shoot of them and they're like posing. And then it. And then the pinned post is like, hey, I don't show my face on here very much, but here I'm so and so. And I'm focused on like, the adventurous souls, the lost people, the wonderlust, and all that sort of stuff. And then you look through the carousel and it's 12 photos of them. Like. So I think, like, there's definitely a huge push in the wedding industry now where I think people are using. I want to be very clear about this, that this is my perspective and this is my. Where I sit in the wedding world is very different. So I'm not trying to say that there's right or wrong ways. I'm not judging anyone. I get that it's a business. I was there for six years. You know, I did it. Yeah way. I definitely got to a point where my identity was my business. I'd walk around as barefoot and bearded. Nice to meet you. You know, and I lost a lot of who I was and I really pushed this. This culture, you know. So I get that there's a. There's a need for. If you're running a business. But I think it. It definitely looks like in the wedding world that there's a lot of people that are using, not using, just like that are having the. So the influencer approach through weddings, you know, and they have this influencer Persona, you know, that when they come in to do weddings and it's like. And I definitely had that with barefoot and bearded, you know, I've got. I had 20. I have 24,000 followers, but I have not been growing over the last four years. I've been losing them, you know, ever since. I've, like changed my work to what it is. It's dropped, you know, but before that, when I was playing the game, it grew and I had the influencer approach and it all worked really well. This is when Justin and I first met, when I was doing workshops and straps sponsored my workshops. You know, that was crime. Barefoot and bearded in its influencer phase, you know, and I had all the Success and all the. All the couples and all the income. But, yeah, I think I've definitely had to sacrifice a lot and compromise a lot with the work that I'm creating now. But the satisfaction I get. Get from creating the work that I do now outweighs all of that, you know. But I think it's a very interesting industry. The more you see people starting podcasts and, you know, having all this desperados, there's all these people in the wedding game that are starting podcasts, and it's just wedding gossip. And you just go, well, this is. This is weird. You know, aren't we doing this, getting married? Like, why is this world now? So it's just a. It's just an interesting. That's why I'm not involved, actually. I ran into a wedding photographer the other day, and they're like, you still doing weddings? I'm like, yep, sure am. But, like, I'm just not being involved in it anymore because it's just not a world that seems to be conducive. [01:59:22] Speaker A: To. [01:59:25] Speaker D: The needs of couples. More the needs of the businesses that are putting out there. Like my old barefoot, bearded. You come in with the gender. This is barefoot beard. I'm trying to see something. [01:59:41] Speaker C: We lost you there for a second. [01:59:42] Speaker A: Lost you for a second. [01:59:44] Speaker D: Well, you got me now. [01:59:45] Speaker A: Yeah, you're back. [01:59:47] Speaker D: What was the last thing I said. [01:59:49] Speaker A: Couples used to come in with? [01:59:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:59:52] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:59:55] Speaker A: Good work. [01:59:56] Speaker B: With what, Joel? [01:59:58] Speaker C: You left us hanging. [02:00:00] Speaker D: Yeah, I think, like. Like, I used to. Used to come in with an agenda of, like, here's, you know, here's the template that I have that fits. That you fit into my template. Whereas now I come in and have no idea. I just try and see weddings as if it's like the first time I've ever seen it, you know, and just, like, approach it completely raw and, you know, personal towards the people that I'm working with. It's a lot more of an exhausting process, and it might not work consistently with the images that you have, but I think it works the best for couples. [02:00:33] Speaker B: Yep. I think it's a really interesting approach, because I think you're right. There is that everyone has their own approach, and every couple has their own idea of what they want. But that whole, you know, it needs to be a perfect day. [02:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:50] Speaker B: Kind of approach to having a wedding is really toxic and really dangerous because it impacts so much of that. The wedding industry, not just the photography, but the, you know, the people that make the gowns and the people that rent the suits and everything gets elevated and gets put on this pedestal because it's for a perfect day. But I think what. What we've noticed looking at your work is that what's perfect to the masses isn't perfect for everyone. You know, and seeing. Seeing how you capture the perfectly imperfect moments of a wedding, I think is so much more valuable than opposed. You know, shoot, where you took 25 minutes to get the shot and you took, you know, 300 photos to choose the one that the, you know, that made it look like a perfect day. And, you know, and there's. There's photos in your collection of people shoving food in their mouths and their eyes wide, you know, aghast that they've just been photographed, but there's also a smirk in the corner of this. Like, there's all those little nuances that I think you capture so beautifully in your work. And I think you should feel proud of opting to forsake the cookie cutter approach, forsake the norm, forsake the. Let the noise that's coming from your peers and social media and even some clients where you probably would choose to. I'm not actually going to work with you because what you're asking for is not what I do, you know, and I think there's a real bravery there in choosing a life of being more at peace with the work you do, Surviving then that, giving you the opportunity and it's not possible for everyone, but giving you that opportunity to then explore the creative side of a genre that I think can at times become clinical. Yeah. [02:02:49] Speaker D: Yeah. It's something that I feel. It just feels great, you know, it feels really awesome to just shoot for yourself. And like, I remember Ollie Sanson told me once, he's like, you know, when you've become successful, successful when no one wants to speak to you, you have no friends, you don't get any bookings, you know, but then, like, you start. That's when you start to get your own voice away from everyone. But then people start to watch from afar and then there's like, it makes sense after a while. So, yeah, I. And look, if I never get busy again with weddings, that's fine. I'll always be shooting straight and like, just photographing because I just love taking photos, you know, um, it's just a coincidence that at weddings you just have. So you have this un. Unrestricted access to photograph everyone however you want, you know, which I love. Like, I can get in people's faces with a flash and smash them, you know, and then they don't have to. They can't say anything because it's a wedding photographer and you're at a wedding. [02:03:45] Speaker A: It'S just expected, you know, you can. [02:03:47] Speaker D: Do that in the street. It's a bit harder, and there's like an ethical sort of moral obligation there. [02:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:03:56] Speaker D: Whereas weddings, it's like. It's definitely more like I just shoot them as a street. I just shoot weddings like a street photographer. That's what I try and try and do anyway. Just, like, getting people's faces and get that documentary approach. It's just really fun. So, yeah, I love it. It's just. I love the work I create. It's just. I don't know if the market isn't there or, like, it's just. Yeah, tough time to be in the weddings. I don't know. Um, but I just got to keep doing what I love, and that's all I have control over. [02:04:23] Speaker B: So, yeah, good attitude. And I think there's a maturity that most photographers reach at some point where they go, you know what? I don't actually give a anymore about the norm. You know, I've done the norm. Now it's time to explore my craft a bit more. [02:04:38] Speaker A: It was something that we. We would often wrestle with. So we used to do. It's funny because it kind of ties in with the project I'm doing at the moment. We used to do, like, sneak peeks. I claim that in our area, we were the first ones to do sneak peeks, but I'm sure we were. Come on. [02:04:57] Speaker C: We definitely were. [02:04:58] Speaker A: We were pioneers. [02:05:00] Speaker B: If there's any photographers listening from the Bendigo area that works in weddings, please let us know. [02:05:06] Speaker A: Come at me. No. So we used to do a sneak peek after the. After the wedding, and that was a chance for everyone to see the images on social media before, you know, before we got the whole set to them. And we do it on, like, the Monday or whatever. And we always had this push and pull. I like my part of me, the main part of me wanted to put in all of the weird, weirder images from the day that made it more unique, lean into that side of whatever that was that day. Some of the more candid stuff, some of the weirder stuff. And that made me feel like we were creating good work that I was proud of. But there was always this push, pull of, like, but they're gonna want that one. They're gonna want it. Like, if we're gonna put this on social media, they need that one. They need the one with the Family there, they need the, you know, the first kiss shot. They need this. They need, need this. And then we're like, well, we can't put 60 images up. All right, we got to get rid of some. [02:06:09] Speaker C: What do you mean we can't? [02:06:10] Speaker A: We did, we started to towards the end, but that was another problem because then the more images you put up, the less powerful it is and culling it down anyway, so, so they end, I. Here's the word. And it's probably a negative sounding word for what we did, but I feel like we kind of sanitized that image set to what we thought they would want to see instead of what made that the images we were more passionate about. Passionate about for the day. And it was actually, it was a very. So Jim and I for years sat side by side on desks just tearing the shit out of each other's crappy images and going through this process of selecting. So if you, we shot a lot of weddings together, together. And if you can imagine what it's like for me and Jim to sit together and, and pick out of thousands of images which 40 were going to get posted on social media and then hang on, whoever got more, you know, like if I got, If I got 30 of the 40 images and Jim got 10 after we decided who, you know, what we were posting, it was just like, see what happened there, Jimbo? And then next week it would be the other way around, you know, like, it was a, it was a fun process, but I think we often pushed towards what would the couple want to see, what would the industry want to see, not what made us happy that we captured that shot. And if, maybe, who knows what would have happened if we leant into only the stuff that we really enjoyed, maybe we would have got less clients, maybe we would have got more clients. Maybe we should have done that from the start. I don't know. [02:07:48] Speaker D: Yeah, I think that's like, what helps with that too is like having that dialogue and that communication with the couples, you know, and like sort of, because I think that's the thing, right? You can have two different approaches when it comes to wedding photography. You could be complete fly on the wall and they book you and you come in and go, yep, cool, I'm gonna do that. And then give the photos and then walk away. Or you can be like a little bit more involved and sort of like I ask couples, like, when you look back on your photos in 10 years to come, what are you excited to see? You know, and very rarely do they say a nice photo Or Cliffside on Sunset, you know? Yeah, they just go, a nice photo with us enjoying time with friends. And I'm like, cool. That's just all documentary, candid stuff. That's heaps easier, you know. So I think it's. Yeah, there's that expectation and that pool definitely for where, like I said earlier, it's like when you say you're a wedding photographer, you have this preconceived idea of what these images look like. So then you feel this pressure to deliver these photos, you know, but having that dialogue and that understanding the communication with the couple and see what they want out of it, you know, and then they might just want those. And if they just want those, then that's just the industry and the clients that you're getting, you know. But the people that I'm communicating at the moment, it's like actually, out of the last five weddings I've shot, I haven't actually taken them out for portraits at all. It's just been all like, no time at all to go and get a nice photo of them. It's just. I just gotta make it work, you know, it's just all documentary. And I love that approach because it's like, you get nice photos of them anyway. You know, there's moments in amongst where they're with all their favorite people where you can get nice photos of them by themselves. You just got to be aware and be present enough to get them. And there's. It's hard to make those moments when you're going to get portraits organic, you know, it's like to make it real and not posed. So I say to my couples, when we do that, it's like, let's think of something to do. So if we're in Sydney, it's a lot easier because we'll just. Let's just go for a walk around to this pub around the corner and get a beer. And I just document that rather than, yeah, here's nice laneway with some light stand there and it's going to look. [02:09:44] Speaker C: Good, you know, that's what they're going to remember, though. They're going to remember, oh, we went and had a beer at the pub. Like, how good is that? [02:09:49] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just means more. [02:09:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:09:53] Speaker A: Should be more about them having a great day than them doing a photo shoot for 12 hours. [02:09:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. I don't. They don't want to do that. [02:10:00] Speaker B: They don't. [02:10:01] Speaker D: They. That's the biggest fear that I think all couples have with getting a photographer is they all say to us, A straightaway is like, oh, I don't like getting photos done. I'm like, good, I don't want you to like getting photos done because that's going to be really awkward, you know, like you look at how you look and it's just going to be strange. Like your natural reaction when you're anxious about getting photos done is to laugh and giggle with each other because it's awkward, you know. But if we facilitate a moment to capture rather than take it from photo, that's what I say to people. It's like, think about something you can do and facilitate a moment and then document that in front of you rather than go, all right, stand there, look at each other and smile like, you know, all that sort of crap. It's just like, it's never going to be completely organic, you know. [02:10:42] Speaker A: On the other hand though, our fear, just before we get to David's question, on the other hand, our fear as photographers, especially when you're newer or sort of, not even necessarily newer, but ramping up your business or whatever, you have this fear that if, say, if you work like you're saying that more candidly, but then they're going to give them the images and I might be stoked with the images and it's what we do and it's what we show on our website. But then they compare them to their friends images that they got that they did the 12 hour photo shoot of posing, like, you know, lighting posing and they look at theirs and they go, oh, why don't mine look like that? You know, like that, that was the internal fear I always had that they're gonna look at the, they're gonna look at these and they're going to look at their friends images and they're going to compare them and be like, why, why don't I look like, you know, a Barbie doll in, in perfect portrait lighting that took 20 minutes to set up or whatever. When we're sort of running gunning and not doing that, that sort of style of thing. And we always try and keep people moving as much as we can. We're walking places, we're doing stuff we weren't like, you know, taking a long time to set up shots. So that was the fear anyway. [02:12:02] Speaker D: Well, I think like that's completely out of, that's just something that's completely out of our control. You know, if they want to compare their gallery to their friends, like, like, to be honest, I don't care because like that's, they book me, they look at my website, I give Them, what they see. [02:12:17] Speaker B: I don't know what they're getting into. [02:12:18] Speaker D: If they don't look at. [02:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:12:19] Speaker D: If they don't look at it, if they don't like it, in hindsight, then it's not my fault, you know, like. [02:12:24] Speaker A: You did your job, I did my. [02:12:26] Speaker D: Job, you know, and if they come back, I've had couples come back and ask, like, hey, did you get a photo of the dress hanging up in the doorway? I'm like, no. [02:12:33] Speaker C: Like, no, you're not going to put that on your wall. [02:12:36] Speaker D: You've got 500 photos of you wearing it. Isn't that better? Like, you know, open your cupboard door. Like, it's just. Yeah. There's just so many weird things with, like, with weddings that just people do because they're like flat lays. Like, every time I walk in to a bridal suite or a groom and I see shoes and perfumes and stuff laid out, I go, oh, I just. I'm not. I just don't photograph it. I'm like, no, not photographing it. Like, I just. Maybe I'm stubborn, I don't know. But I just think that that's not anything, you know, it's just not. It's for the show. That is for the show right there. That's not genuine real, but that's. This is all the communication that I have with my couples prior is they understand that, you know, and that's my approach. [02:13:21] Speaker C: So we tried to sort of say to people that, like, although those, you know, sometimes we would shoot those things getting. You actually say putting them on or, you know, spraying your perfume rather than a photo of your perfume bottle is a much more interesting photo. [02:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah, like, that's. [02:13:39] Speaker C: That's the detail photos is actually wearing them or putting them on. Or like, maybe your mum's putting on a necklace or something. Like, that's the photo. Because there's real moments in there that's not. [02:13:49] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:13:49] Speaker A: And trying to explain to them that. That if we're busy trying to, like, arrange. [02:13:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:13:55] Speaker A: Takes all these things, we're gonna miss the moment when one of the bridesmaids laughs and milk comes out her nose, you know, while they're getting ready or something like that. And you're like, yeah. The amount of times I was in the other room setting up shoes and rings and stuff, and you hear something happen and you're like, yeah. [02:14:14] Speaker D: The one that I struggle with the most and like, it's definitely an internal conflict because I see that it is necessary to a degree is family focus photos. Family shots are like, Right after a ceremony. So energy is high. Right. And I'm standing there setting pose shots and I look to the side of me and you got like mum with her arm around the sibling, just having a cute moment and I'm like, yeah, am I doing here? Yeah, yeah, get a photo booth, you know, like, so I can get this here. But then I have one camera set up for that and then I have another camera set up for doco stuff as I'm going. But yeah, it's hard because those are special to special. They are special. But it's hard because, like, there again, you're missing out on all this other stuff that's going on around you. [02:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:15:01] Speaker C: I think it's about trying to get it done as, as fast as possible, like, so that you can get back to the real 100. And also, like you say, being prepared to go, well, I've got this camera set up to shoot those and. [02:15:11] Speaker B: Yep. [02:15:12] Speaker C: Also just keeping an eye on everything else. [02:15:14] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, sure. [02:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah. It takes effort. Let's jump to David's question. [02:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry, Jim doesn't. Yeah, let's, let's, let's read it out. What. Jim doesn't have restrictions is what I was going to say. [02:15:32] Speaker B: What are some of this. Didn't you get in a pool or something or a pond? What are some of the restrictions you guys have dealt with, especially church weddings? No fill light can't be in certain areas. Etc. [02:15:45] Speaker A: So. So Jim basically gets to a church and he's like, oh, this isn't going to work. I'll be back. And you just go up the front and just start telling, telling them. He's like, oh, you know, we're going to have to be able to go over there. Please don't put your lecturn in the middle of the first kiss because that's going to look ridiculous. Can you move it over there? [02:16:03] Speaker C: No, not with church. Weddings are. [02:16:06] Speaker A: Well, you usually do go first. You're like, I'm gonna go find out if we can get up on that balcony that's closed off. And then, and then you'll be like, and now, and now I'm gonna tell the priest that please don't stand directly behind the couple when they have their first kiss. Please, please. [02:16:21] Speaker C: Doing like some like, weird face. [02:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you. Have you done a church wedding lately, Joel? Is that a. Is that a film to film and churches go together? [02:16:34] Speaker D: Not necessarily. I haven't done one yet. I am nervous about it because generally they're quite dark. So shooting film in like dark Environments. It's like, if I was to do it, I'd say you pretty much exclusively. Just going to get black and white photos, because I can push it 1600. But yeah, it's. I've done. Definitely done church weddings where you're dealing with a lot of those restrictions, like places you can't go. And I'm someone that. I get worried when I walk into a church, I'm going to burst up into flames. So it's very. [02:17:08] Speaker A: The restriction for you is getting inside safely. [02:17:11] Speaker D: Like, getting through the door without burning is step one, you know, but, yeah, it's. You definitely. There's definitely places you can't go. You know, they stand in areas where that's very questionable. So, yeah, it's. It's something that I just don't have any. I don't try and get involved at all. You know, I just go, all right, you're gonna do it that way. If you stand there for the kiss, it's not my fault, you know, like. Yeah, I'm just gonna do the best I can with this scenario. And also, again, it's another thing that if you look on my website, I haven't got any church weddings there, so the chances are, like, you're gonna get it how I want to shoot the church wedding, you know, so, yeah, churches it. And I also understand, like, I'm not religious, but I'm definitely understand that there's a process and a way that they do it that I don't feel like I can have an opinion on, you know, So I just step back, smile and wave, take the photos and then just deal with it from there, I guess. Yeah. [02:18:15] Speaker A: I think one thing that we've always done is where, like, while I do a joke about Jim getting in there and he'll talk to. Talk to them and find out if we go up on a balcony or whatever. But when it comes to. During the ceremony, like, we'll be hiding behind pillars. We'll be. Yeah. Like, step. Full stealth mode in church weddings. And I would never. [02:18:38] Speaker C: Most weddings, really. [02:18:39] Speaker A: Probably most weddings, but it's a little bit easier to move around. Outdoor wedding and stuff like that. Like, you can kind of get. You can. [02:18:44] Speaker C: You've got a 360 almost. [02:18:46] Speaker A: Yeah. There's more space. And your feet don't make a giant, like, sound when you walk around outside. Crazy. Yeah. Full super stealth and no flash and trying to. Yeah. Hide. Hide on the sides and get angles and we don't. I've seen people go up on the. Like, right up and take photos over the shoulder and stuff like that in church weddings. And I'm like, I don't want to be. I don't want people to see me that are watching this. You know, like, ideally, obviously, there might be a moment or two where you have to sort of sneak around. But yeah, it's like, usually crouch down in the aisle. You know, if I have to go from the aisle to the side, I'm the photographer that, like, sneaks all the way to the back of the church, goes across all the way down the side, just because I don't want to walk in front of the action. So. And that's. That's probably just a personal choice, but that's how I have always done it. [02:19:41] Speaker D: It's the way to do it. [02:19:43] Speaker A: It's the way to do it. [02:19:44] Speaker C: I feel like, you know, potentially like priests and stuff as well. The person that's going to call you out and say, like, mid ceremony, you can't be up here. Like, so you're trying to avoid those, you know, because sometimes you're not allowed behind them or. [02:19:59] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [02:20:00] Speaker B: You don't want to get on the bad side of God. [02:20:02] Speaker C: No. [02:20:02] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:20:04] Speaker A: So this is a good example of what Jim. How Jim would deal with something. How would you deal with this gym? So David's saying, I've had someone tell me I can't shoot until after the kiss because all cameras to them are loud. Which his was. [02:20:23] Speaker C: It depends. I like if you're shooting like a DSLR most. [02:20:27] Speaker A: I guess let's assume it's. It's not. Yeah, it's not mirrorless. [02:20:31] Speaker C: We. We definitely would have, like, when we used to shoot in the cathedral and stuff in Bendigo. It's a huge building with lots of echoes. We would switch to, like, to quiet mode on the, like the Nikons and stuff like that. [02:20:42] Speaker A: Let's assume you don't have quiet mode, though. Would you not. Would you just say, okay, I won't shoot? Yeah, you. You would say, look, the camera just. [02:20:48] Speaker C: Wouldn'T shoot, like, burst mode. Like, you'd just be. [02:20:51] Speaker A: That's right. [02:20:52] Speaker C: Mindful of what you're shooting. [02:20:53] Speaker A: You try and reassure that. Reassure whoever it is that has this concern that, like, hey, I'm not. I'm not going to get in your way. I'm not going to even get up close to what you guys are doing. And I promise I won't disrupt what's happening, but I am here to do a job, and the couple do want this documented. [02:21:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:21:10] Speaker A: So I can't just not shoot until after the kiss. But I promise I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna disrupt your service. We're all here for this. No one's here for me. But I do need to capture what's happening. [02:21:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Everyone's got a job to do. [02:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Because you can't just not do it. The couple's gonna. The couple will want their money back. And the other thing is, the last thing you want to do is the couple needs to not know you're having this conversation. The last thing you want to do is ask the couple and say, hey, the priest just told me that I can't shoot. Can you go and talk to him and see if, you know, you can work like. No, you have to sort it out quietly and. And professionally. Professionally and. And with no, like, pushiness. It's respectfully, you know, like almost asking them, you know, can I do. Would you please mind if I at least take some shots from off to the side and be as quiet as possible? [02:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's 25 past 11. You're listening to the Camera Life podcast brought to you by Lucky Straps. We're joined by Joel Alston. I get that. Right. [02:22:17] Speaker D: Nice work. Well, Yep. [02:22:21] Speaker B: Who's a film. An Analog film wedding photographer. And obviously Justin and Jimmy here, too. Just before we wrap up, I just want to jump to a couple of quick news segments just to. No, no. [02:22:38] Speaker A: We twist the same button at the same time. Jim said no. [02:22:45] Speaker B: I thought you'd turn me off. [02:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:22:47] Speaker B: No, no, no, don't, Greg, don't. [02:22:49] Speaker C: Did you bring up her thing, Justin? [02:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I just. I was going to bring up that. It says quiet mode wasn't quiet on the 850. It wasn't really quiet. No. But if. [02:22:57] Speaker C: David, if you've still got it, I don't know if, you know, if you hold your finger down. So press the shutter, the shuttle go. And then if you hold it down for like another second and then let it go, it's a heap quieter sort of delays the sounds a little bit and makes it. [02:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:23:11] Speaker C: A lot quieter to use secret or. [02:23:15] Speaker A: Upgrade to the Z8 and you can shoot in silent mode. [02:23:18] Speaker B: Yeah, very true. Speaking of cameras and mega pickles, Sony have just announced the follow up to their A1 flagship, which is the A1 Mark 2. The A1 came out, I think in 21. Yep. And they've just announced their brand new flagship which looks crazy. [02:23:48] Speaker A: Hey, it is a 9 million EVF. [02:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah, 9.44 million dot EVF. I think it's an OLED with 120 I think it's 120 FPS refresh rate. You can bump it up to 240. [02:24:04] Speaker A: I believe it would almost be approaching the reality through the EVF of Joel's film cameras. It refreshes almost as fast as reality and it almost has as much resolution as reality but not quite. [02:24:22] Speaker B: Shoots a crazy 8K 30P and a 4K 120 internally. Look, there's a lot to go through and we're not going to go through it in this. That's not why we're here. One of the best things I think that I've seen on some of the video reviews. Petapixel put one out pretty much straight away when this was announced is the rear tilting touchscreen. So it's a four axis so it's multi angle. It flips down, it flips up and it also rotates out for. [02:24:51] Speaker A: Same as the A7R5. [02:24:55] Speaker B: Yes. [02:24:55] Speaker A: Whatever they're up to now I think that at first come out on that camera and it. I wish Canon had that on there because I hate. I like to tilt the screen up and be able to look down at the camera. Kind of pretend I'm shooting with a Hasselblad but everything's not backwards and I can't do that on the Canon because you have to like flip it out to the side and then you just look like a weirdo and it takes a little bit longer. I just like to be able to tilt it back. That is something that I would wish Canon had and it's a good feature. Sony have good I think because once. [02:25:24] Speaker B: You flip a screen out it doubles the footprint of the camera's appearance in someone's hands and people become more aware of it. Retail for the new A1 Mark 2 will come out sometime in December, probably just before Christmas. US$6,500 which is what about 10? [02:25:41] Speaker A: Yeah. It'll be Australian bargain. [02:25:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Imagine the lucky you could buy for that. [02:25:46] Speaker A: Jo. [02:25:49] Speaker D: Seriously. [02:25:51] Speaker B: Second bit of Sony news for the day. At the same time they've announced a brand new 28-70 F2G master. [02:26:01] Speaker A: Yep. [02:26:02] Speaker B: Which looks which pretty phenomenal. [02:26:05] Speaker A: Which Petapixel labeled as one of the best lenses ever made. And I say welcome to Canon four years ago. But go on. [02:26:16] Speaker B: No, no, no. So look it's a. I'm not going to go through the specs. That's not what we're here for. It's just to announce there is this funky new lens 28-70F2. [02:26:30] Speaker A: The highlight feature for me is assuming it's Sharp and good. Because I'm sure they've done a great job on it. I'm sure it will be, but it's 900 and something grams. The Canon one is 1.4 kilos. So, yeah, they have shaved off a massive amount of weight to the point where it would actually be quite reasonable to. To wander around with 900 grams. So they've done a good job there. [02:26:52] Speaker C: Doesn't look that big. Like. [02:26:54] Speaker A: It looks pretty big on a body. Nothing. It never looks. [02:26:57] Speaker C: Didn't look as big as I expected. [02:26:59] Speaker A: No, it's nowhere near as big as the Canon one. [02:27:04] Speaker D: Yeah, it is. [02:27:05] Speaker A: It's a decent size, but it's not massive. [02:27:08] Speaker B: It doesn't. It's hard to know whether it sits flush when you put the camera down. [02:27:13] Speaker A: Here we go. Paul Henderson. I'd only buy the Sony if it had a free lucky strap. Unfortunately, only cannons come with free lucky straps, so. [02:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah, but if you buy a Sony. No, we won't send you a free lucky strap, give you free advice on the Sony and you can buy a lucky strap anymore. [02:27:34] Speaker A: We might do an episode on some of this Sony stuff, because I do. I have a lot of strong opinions about the. The flagship thing. We might even. We might discuss that. Like can. Flagships versus. Exactly. [02:27:45] Speaker B: That's. [02:27:46] Speaker A: That's another thing. [02:27:49] Speaker B: And the only other bit of news was that just very quickly. Let me just change screens. [02:27:56] Speaker A: Joel, do you. Do you look at any camera news anymore? Or. Because you shoot film now, you look. Do you get like magazines from the 70s and get them delivered and read those or like, what's your. How do you do that? [02:28:13] Speaker D: That's so funny. No, look, I have no idea what's going on and I'd love to keep it that way. No, my. Yeah, fucking. Nothing. Nothing. [02:28:24] Speaker A: Nothing. [02:28:25] Speaker D: No idea. I just. I just look at. I just look at photo books. That's my study. [02:28:31] Speaker B: Yep. [02:28:34] Speaker A: Any digital camera. Could any digital camera tempt you in the near future? Or are you. Are you purposely against it? Or say if someone come along and said, hey, Joel, I'm from Leica, I'd love to give you this free, free Leica M11P that has no screen on the back of it or whatever? Like, would. Are you, like, what's flexible? [02:28:55] Speaker B: Are you. [02:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Are you digital curious or are you solely. [02:29:02] Speaker B: Polyamorous? Is it poly film? [02:29:05] Speaker A: I don't know. [02:29:06] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:29:07] Speaker A: Is it a moral thing, like film only? Or is it just like. No, I'm enjoying that at the moment. But hey, I would shoot digital again, depending on how I feel and what's going on or whatever. [02:29:17] Speaker D: I think, yeah, I would like digital. Curious for sure. But I think like what it is at the moment, it's just film, you know, I'm just loving the process of film and less time in front of a computer, the better I like it. But there's things like the M11, for example, with no screen. It's like I would be a attracted to that. I still have the X Pro 3, the Fuji X Pro 3. Oh, do you? [02:29:43] Speaker A: Okay. [02:29:44] Speaker D: Yeah. So I do like those cameras in a way that it still has that analog feel. So I've shot Fuji for the last. Well, digitally I've shot Fuji for the last like three years. And the reason is because the aperture ring, the shutter dial, it has that same sort of tangibility of film. So I, I just love the process of it. So I would definitely be interested into the M11 with no screen down the track because I do see a, like, for example, shooting this blockade. Like it's sort of hot news at the moment and I'm shooting it on film and I'm like, I'd love to send these to publishers, but I'm like, oh, there's the logistical thing of like not having it developed and scanned and sent straight away. I'd like to think one day I could have a photo photojournalism job and I'd have to probably get into digital then. But it's. I would want to be with something that has the same feel and the same process as film. So something like the 11 with no screen. Because I don't even want the option. You know, even when I had the X Pro 3, I'd still use it, the screen. But I'm like, I just want to be forced to have the option. You know, I think that's, that's very appealing. For sure. [02:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:30:54] Speaker B: Cool. [02:30:55] Speaker D: I have no idea. All this Sony stuff, I'm like, this is the first time I'm hearing. [02:30:58] Speaker A: I was wondering, I was expecting, expecting you to just walk away. [02:31:04] Speaker B: This is the Internet and on the Internet, anything you want. But most people just use it for porn. [02:31:16] Speaker A: Joel also gets in magazines from the 70s. [02:31:21] Speaker D: Playboy's upstairs. [02:31:22] Speaker B: You know, something about the tactile feeling. Sigma have announced four brand new primes for APS. C, Canon RF about what Canon RF. [02:31:35] Speaker A: Cameras are APC now APSC, the R7, the. There's a ton. There's a, there's a whole little sort of the R100, the R50, I think R10. I don't know, I've lost track. There's a Nice little APS C range building out there. And yeah, it seems like this is the first, the first part of like their mount system that they're releasing to third party lenses because multiple companies have done it now. [02:32:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well that's why one of the reasons why I jumped on this article because Canon have always been so precious about their mount and allowing others to connect with it. So 16, a 23, 1 4, a 314 and a 5614. Cool. [02:32:23] Speaker A: We can just only hope that it comes to full frame. Yeah, there's so the moment full frame still locked down. I don't know if you're aware, Joel, but like when they did the RF mount, the new mount for mirrorless in Canon, they just, they just said no more third party lenses. [02:32:38] Speaker D: Oh wow. [02:32:39] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So if you want to buy lenses for that autofocus, I think you can kind of, you know, you can get manual stuff. Yeah, you, yeah, you either stuck with Canon's lenses or you put an adapter on it and use the old EF mount lenses from whatever Sigma, Tamron, whatever you want. But yeah, they've, they've kept it out whereas Nikon support it. Sony like all the other. Everyone else has access to Sigma and Tamron lenses except Canon. [02:33:06] Speaker D: Right, there you go. Okay. [02:33:08] Speaker B: Interesting. Stubborn. On that note. Yeah, I think we'll draw a close. It has been. First and foremost I want to thank Joel for joining us for giving us an insight into I guess an alternative way perhaps a more definitely a more creative way and interesting way to approach what can be a cook cookie cutter recipe for wedding photography. And I think it's, there's a lot of inspiration to be gained from looking at your work and, and I think there's also, I think you should feel quite proud for bright, for the bravery of tackling what many people consider to be a taboo of taking risks in wedding photography, but actually embracing it and making it work for you and for more, most importantly for the couples that you shoot for. So well done and thank you for being a part of our show today. Been an absolute pleasure to have you on board. [02:34:08] Speaker D: Loved it. I loved everything. [02:34:11] Speaker B: I think in the future we'd like to get you back to talk about photography and business because we have other people that we've had on the show. Jason Lau, who's also run a very successful photography business who kind of did it. The flip side, he studied photography in, in school and then you know, work through film and then into digital before sort of really getting into the business side of things. Whereas for you, you had the business grounding and foundation and then picked photography as the hammer of your choice, so to speak. So we'd love to get you back on in the future to talk about photography and business, but I'm also very conscious that you have a blockade to get to. The light is fading. [02:34:54] Speaker A: We better let you go. [02:34:56] Speaker D: Yeah, well, it's done there. Starting to. I think 2:00 is when it all starts kicking off. So I'm very past going to be chaos. So it's going to be great. [02:35:04] Speaker A: I'm keen. [02:35:07] Speaker B: No, you're very welcome anytime, if you ever want to. [02:35:11] Speaker A: If you've ever got. Because you do. Also. We didn't really mention it much, but you do run workshops on occasions. You do that kind of. Yeah, it's something that I was gonna say if you ever got anything you want to promote or anything like that, even if you just want to want us to read out on the show or if you want to pop on for five minutes and talk about something you. You've got coming up at an event or even. I've seen you've been doing photo walks and stuff like that. Film photo walks. Yeah. Make sure you keep us in the loop and we can spread the word. [02:35:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, thank you. That's pretty much it at the moment. I'm just trying to rebirth film back into at least Newcastle. My local community. Community. And then, yeah, I. I've sort of taken a step back on a lot of educational stuff at the moment. I love doing them, but yeah, I just think I'm in. I'm in a big learning process right now, so I think I'm more interested in learning before teaching. [02:36:00] Speaker A: Yep. [02:36:01] Speaker B: Cool. [02:36:01] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. [02:36:03] Speaker B: Good tempered approach. On that note, thank you, Jim for joining. Great to see you back on the show once again. [02:36:11] Speaker C: Thanks. [02:36:12] Speaker B: Third week in a row, folks. Third week in a row. And he's staying for the whole show this time? [02:36:15] Speaker C: Pretty sure. [02:36:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Let us know in the comments if you're glad to see Jim back. Thanks for paying the bills. Thanks for joining us today. And look on that note, this has been the Camera Life podcast, episode 39 and it's the 21st of November and we wish you all a wonderful week. Get out with your camera. You know, choose a point on a map heading, head south, follow the light. [02:36:48] Speaker A: Set to ISO 100. [02:36:50] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:36:51] Speaker B: Just the brick walls and the traffic. Above all else, just. Yeah. Get out with your camera and hunt some light and see what you can find. But thanks to everyone for listening. Please feel free to add comments please make sure you, like, follow and subscribe and all of that business. And I guess we'll see you next week. [02:37:12] Speaker C: Cool. [02:37:14] Speaker B: Thanks, guys. [02:37:15] Speaker C: Thank you. Thanks, Joel. [02:37:16] Speaker D: Thank you. See, everybody.