From Corporate Burnout to Alpine Landscape Photography | Jeff Freestone (EP160)

[00:00:25] Speaker A: Well, welcome back to the Camera Life podcast, everybody. It is Thursday, 26th February. February is almost over. It's my youngest son's birthday in two days. That's 15. I feel very old, but that's enough about me. And please don't forget to drop some comments if you think our new intro is good. I love it. It's punchy. Catching up. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Is it too loud? Do I need to turn the volume down a little? Is that right? [00:00:49] Speaker A: You'll be fine. Just leave it. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:52] Speaker A: And of course, that is the dulcet tones of the boss and founder, Justin Castles. G', Day, boss. How are you? G'. Day. [00:00:58] Speaker B: I'm good. I'm feeling good. We're coming through the week, heading for the weekend, and I'm feeling great. [00:01:05] Speaker A: That's good to hear. Now, I'm kind of a bit concerned because clearly we didn't. We didn't check our wardrobe, you know, as a collective group of people that are going to appear on the same podcast at the same time. This is not a uniform. It is a Lucky Straps T shirt, which you can get. But of course, we do have a guest today, being a Thursday, and we are joined today by Australian landscape nature photographer, workshop operator, and beef up workshop instructor, Jeff Freestone. G', day, Jeff. How are you? [00:01:33] Speaker C: Good, how are you? [00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm good, I'm good. Thank you for asking. It's great to have you on the show. Oh, thanks, man. We. We didn't plan this wardrobe. This is just the way it worked out. It's just. [00:01:47] Speaker B: I mean, it's. Yeah, it's almost like they're too close. They don't match, but they're too close to be worn at the same time. I don't know. We'll figure it out next time. I'll go back to these two colors. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Mine and yours are identical, but you're using Canon color and I'm using Tree Fujifilm color. [00:02:02] Speaker B: So it's not true at all. Your white balance is off. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Whatever, Whatever, Jeff. Enough about us bickering. We're going to get into your story in a little bit. But just before we do, I just remind everybody that this is the Camera Life podcast, proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps. That's us. That's what we do. Hold up your T shirt, Jay. We make fine handmade leather camera straps right here in Australia. Head to Luckystraps.com and use code Greg at checkout and you'll get yourself a healthy little discount. But we have everything from wrist straps and shoulder neck straps for smaller cameras. Right up to the big beasts that Justin carries. So, yeah, head to luck was [00:02:47] Speaker B: with the incorrect color science, not like your tiny little crop sensor Fujis. [00:02:53] Speaker A: You want one? You want one? [00:02:55] Speaker B: I kind of do. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Now, Jeff, let's. But just before we start saying good morning to some people, and if you are watching live with us, please make sure you. You drop a comment in the chat and say g'. Day. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Speaking of which, can you see any comments? [00:03:09] Speaker A: There's no comments. [00:03:10] Speaker C: Are we live? [00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it says we're live. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Yeah, that is bizarre. If you can hear us, throw a comment in the live chat. There might be actually something wrong with. With the live chat this morning. That's it. [00:03:23] Speaker C: Typically when I join a podcast, we got one, just the numbers go down. Yeah. [00:03:28] Speaker A: What are you doing to us, Jeff? Subscribers are dropping off one by one when I'm on Now, you're no stranger to podcasts. You've been on a number of them, local and international. [00:03:43] Speaker C: I have done a couple, yeah. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty cool. Well, look, we. We will roll back and get a little bit of an insight into where this all began for you, but just before we do, let's. Let's kick it off with a question. You know, in your. In your about page, in your bio, and you have spoken about this on other, less reputable podcasts. You. You had a tree change in 2017. You were in a corporate life and something wasn't working, and you packed up the family and you moved to the high country of Victoria. Is that correct? [00:04:17] Speaker C: Yeah. Yep. So I'm based in small town called Omeo, which is, if you know Victoria, it's between kind of Mount Hotham and Bansdale, so it's quite a remote town. But, yeah, moved up here in 2017 from Melbourne. Grew up born, born and bred in Melbourne. And yeah, yeah, made the change. So, yeah, previously, before coming up here, I was in corporate life for about eight years. I was working in financial planning, quite the opposite to photography. And yeah, so I'd been doing that and I kind of fell into that role or that industry originally. I'd always had, I guess, an intention or an interest in creative kind of pursuits. So I actually originally studied in graphic design. So I studied graphic design. And from there I was trying to get into university when I'd finished high school. And at that time, I don't know what it's like now, actually. I haven't. I have no idea what the industry is like now, but it was really, really competitive. It was a strong time to get into it. And your portfolios and those sorts of things had to be real top notch. It was kind of like they'd accept you if you'd had some sort of experience but you could only get experience, you know, that sort of a. If they accepted you. So yes, yeah, that's right, yeah. So it was challenging to get in. I think I'm missed out on, you know, on the courses that I wanted and decided to. I did a TAFE course, kind of like a bridging course to try and get back into like a university course. So I did that for about a year and then just decided that I wanted to have a bit of time off and just decide where I wanted to go with it if it was exactly where I wanted to go, go down that path. And yes, I actually just went overseas for about 18 months, lived in the UK and I was over there with my now wife. We were just boyfriend and girlfriend at the time and yeah, just had a great time over there, no responsibility. So I just went over there with a one way ticket and didn't know when we were going to come back but yeah, pretty much just worked over there to travel and yeah, it was just the 18 months of just having a bit of fun and yeah just seeing the world. But then when I came back I came back with no money so I had to move back in with the parents. Yeah, just we spent pretty much all their money. [00:07:11] Speaker A: That phone call is terrible, isn't it? That's the worst phone call in history. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Hi mom and dad. [00:07:16] Speaker C: Yes, well it's quite funny actually because when we went over there we'd planned. The only thing we'd planned apart from the one way ticket was to do a trip like a kind of like Contiki but not Contiki is called Bus about. So it was less of the partying and more just getting around and seeing the sights. So I did that for four weeks which is great but we had no money when we came back back to London that was where we were based and yeah, I just called mum and just said I've got no money, I don't know if it's going to work out, I think I might come back. She's like you're not coming back, you've just gone over there, you just got there, you only been there for four weeks and make it work. Yeah and then just basically did that and lasted for about 18 months and then came back but again yeah, with no money, no change of or decision of what I wanted to do with graphic design and yeah, so came back living with the Parents and that was a nightmare. So I just wanted to get out of there as quick as possible. I don't think Mum and Dad are listening to this, so I'm sure they'll [00:08:23] Speaker B: understand if they're in there. Jump in the live chat, I think. I think the live chat. I think there's something wrong with it. I tried to post a comment in there to see. I think that. Yeah, I don't know. [00:08:33] Speaker A: Lisa Leach just sent me a text message saying, can you see my comment? I cannot see any comments in the chat. So it might actually be a YouTube issue. [00:08:39] Speaker B: I think he. I think YouTube's got some live chat problems today. I don't know what's going on. Crazy. [00:08:44] Speaker A: All right, well, look, we'll do our best. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Sorry, Jeff. So you're broke. We've all been there. [00:08:50] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Time to make a change. [00:08:53] Speaker C: Yeah, so just. Yeah, just came back and was living with Mum and Dad and. Yeah, that just after living away for so long, it just. It wasn't. Yeah, I wasn't keen on staying back at home, so I was kind of just looking for anything that could get me money to. To move back out. And I came across a job at a. It was insurance superannuation company called axa. Basically, like AMP now. And yeah, just went for that job. It was just a call center job, which was interesting. I did that for about 12 months. But yeah, basically in that I stayed with that company for I think it was about six years. And I studied financial planning through the company, which was great. I guess that's a good thing about working for big. Yeah, big. Big companies and big corporations is that. Yeah, they just pay for you to do that. They want you to kind of improve and go up the ladder and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, so I did that. Yeah. [00:09:50] Speaker B: And then. [00:09:51] Speaker C: Yeah, basically was financial planning. And then I moved out for the last like two years of that kind of corporate stint into like, accounting firms, a range of accounting firms across Melbourne as a financial planner. So. Yeah. And basically, I guess trying to cut the long story short, which is I didn't really do. But. [00:10:13] Speaker A: No, no, we're here for long stories. Don't. Don't worry. [00:10:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It took me, I guess that eight years to realize that it wasn't what I wanted. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:25] Speaker C: You know, particularly, you know, when I was with AXA for a while, I was just kind of finding my feet and figuring out where I wanted to go. But once I kind of went into financial planning full time, it wasn't what I kind of imagined it to be or it wasn't so much what I imagined it to be, but I think I was convincing myself I could be someone that I wasn't for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: It's an interesting story and we hear it from time to time. It actually replicates my own story. Studied industrial design, left school, uni, really weird market, tough to get into. So picked up a. You know, actually while I was studying, I picked up a part time job and then got a job at a corporate adoptus. Corporate. Started in a call center and then, you know, it took me 13 years to realize and then a little stint that actually I want to go back to doing photography. So. [00:11:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:17] Speaker A: And it happens to people where they, you know, and also the. The, you know, a regular page. Pretty enticing to keep going. You know, it's. Especially when you've had a period of being broke or, you know, being on a student income or whatever it may be, finally receiving a regular paycheck just. It's intoxicating. And so you keep going back for it. [00:11:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, well, and I think that's the thing. Like there was kind of a bit of a pivot. Pivotal moment for. For me and I guess my wife to decide to move was. Yeah, it. I'd got to a point where I was. I can keep going in this direction, but then based on, you know, what I'm going to be earning, I'm going to be locked into that and the lifestyle and that sort of stuff and it will be hard to pull back from that once you're actually locked in or not, not locked in. But you know, you're on a certain level of income and a certain lifestyle and then once you get to that, it's hard to, I guess foresee how you'd go without that. Yeah. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Because the bills are going to keep coming in, the rent or the mortgage, all that stuff still shows up, you know. [00:12:28] Speaker C: Yeah, Y. Yeah. But at that time, around that time, I was actually listening to a podcast. We were both listening to a podcast called the Minimalists. You heard of those guys? [00:12:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I think I have. Yeah. They made them. They made a movie. They made like a. [00:12:41] Speaker C: They did, yeah. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Like a documentary. Yeah. [00:12:43] Speaker C: Yep, yep, yep. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Very cool. [00:12:46] Speaker C: So, yeah, so that was kind of like in the early days, we were listening to them pre Netflix and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, yeah, their story is very similar. So they were two corporate guys, worked their way up the ladder and got really high up in their company and were pretty much locked into that lifestyle. They had, you know, the big house, you know, cars. I had everything that they wanted. But they, you know, basically realized that everything they had wasn't really making them happy. They were just grinding away. And they talk about how they could see, like the executives of those companies, they were just miserable. Like they had all the money that they needed, but they were just miserable. And that they kind of had a bit of a turning point where they were like, this is not what I want to do. They were like, I think they were like mid-20s and they were like, this isn't where I want to go. They could kind of see their future in those people. And they both basically just pulled the pin completely and they just, yeah, got rid of all this stuff. They kind of followed this minimalist trend where they just pulled back on everything and they were just looking to see what they could do creatively. I think they pulled back from corporate and then just their, their idea was they'd just go work in like a cafe and be a barista and live a very minimalist life. But they didn't end up doing that. They just started writing a blog and the blog kind of took off and then that got into a podcast and then, you know, a few years later they're on Netflix. So. So you listen to that kind of resonated a lot with me, where I was. And yeah, I think it was just kind of like this. The stars kind of aligned at the right time. I don't think if I was listening to something like that, I don't think I would have come across or thought about that sort of stuff that kind of deeply, if that makes sense. I would have just continued grinding away until, you know, you kind of, you [00:14:38] Speaker A: see when you, when you get, you know, I was doing 14 hour days and getting home, you know, interacting with the family. It's such a trap because you get into this mindset of I've got to now feed the machine, you know, I've got to feed capitalism because I'm relying on it for this lifestyle, you know, and it's, it's interesting. Late last year we had Jeff Cable on was Team USA Olympic photographer and you know, what was he? VP of marketing for Sandisk Alexa. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Wasn't he, Joe? You know. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, you're. You're buzzing a bit for me, Greg. I don't know if Jeff, if you can hear clear or not. [00:15:23] Speaker C: Yeah, perfect. [00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. There's something super weird going on with our system today. There's gremlins everywhere, but. So I don't think it's an issue with you, Greg? I think it's just a weird Streamyard issue, but let me just check. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's all going to. Sorry guys. [00:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:15:40] Speaker A: Anyway, so, yeah, yeah, it's interesting someone like Jeff as well, like he. And he made change full time photographer because he was living the rat race but he, he just wanted more and more time off to go do photography because he loved it so much and he realized it was something in it for him and eventually he just left the corporate world, started his, you know, built further, built his own business and took it from there. And now he's. Every two years he travels to the Summer Olympics to photograph, which is huge. I'm obviously getting a lot of attention for different reasons. [00:16:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:16] Speaker A: So making that seat change how you know, you get to the high country, you were already doing photography at this stage from what I know. Is that correct? [00:16:27] Speaker C: Not so much. I think he's going to go try and sort out the audio issues. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Maybe [00:16:35] Speaker A: not. [00:16:36] Speaker C: Not so much. So I'd always had a camera and it was always there and I'd never really done anything like going to manual settings and that sort of stuff so I'd never done anything like that. But I always had a camera with me. Like when we were overseas living in the uk I had a camera and I knew I enjoyed the creative side of photography so I knew I was taking photos. I didn't really kind of know what I was doing but I knew, I knew I knew how to frame up an image. And yeah, I think I just instinctively knew how to create an interesting image but I never took it beyond that. I think I tried a few times to try and take it a bit further but living in Melbourne I really struggled. I'm not really into street photography or anything like that so there was nothing that really grabbed my attention and I don't think I really thought about that. I think I was just like, maybe this just isn't for me. But once I moved to the other country and saw the landscape up here, I started to think, oh, it was more just like my surrounds. It just wasn't grabbing me. So yeah, I thought that was interesting to reflect on. But yes, I always had a camera around but I'd never really taken it beyond. Yeah, like doing anything with like manual settings or it was always just like a, like an auto camera with a lens, fixed lens kind of thing. But I'd always be, I was always interested in like design and you know, I grew up drawing a lot and stuff like that. But I really lost a Lot of that. Once I moved to the corporate world, I lost that completely. I just lost the desire. And I think once I started listening to that podcast about them kind of going back to, to what they enjoyed and that sort of stuff, it made me think like, you know, I'd like to do that. Something that I wouldn't mind doing maybe just on the side. So when we moved to the high country, I had, I didn't have any intention of actually starting a business in like a creative field. That never was the intention. It was more just me to do it from like a enjoyment perspective, like a hobby kind of thing and just try and get back into that and enjoy it and spend a lot of time doing it, but maybe just still work somehow to, you know, fund the bills. Um, so yeah, and then when we moved here, that's where you're kind of going with the question. That's where I invested. You know, I didn't have a job, so I quit my job in financial planning, moved up here, had no idea what I was going to do work wise. Not the smartest move when you've got two kids as well. But yeah. So like I had a lot of time in between to really just dive in deep and I didn't know I was actually going to do that. I just. Once we moved here and you know, even though I grew up in Victoria, I'd never been to the high country. So when we came here I was just like, whoa. I had no idea that this stuff was around. Like as a kid, like we just kind of traveled around Melbourne and traveled interstate to like just cities. Like my parents just took us to cities like you know, Adelaide or Sydney and stuff like that. But I never really went real country. Um, so when I saw like, you know, Mount Hotham and that sort of stuff, so whoa. I just was kind of blown away. So that's kind of where the photography came into it because I was like, geez, I didn't know this. So I'm guessing there's other people that don't really know what's out there and that's not that far away. So yeah, I just started photographing it and I just became obsessed and really just dived right into like YouTube tutorials and everything like that. And yeah, I spent like a good probably like year just entrenched in learning. So I had like a very quick upswing in learning. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah, but I know that that sounds perilous and obviously not having, you know, a fixed income is quite stress inducing, especially for a family. But isn't it beautiful that you can spend a year just trying to work out what it is you want to do, especially in that sort of setting. Like that in itself must be inspirational that, you know, the landscape is. Is all around you. It's calling to you to lift your camera frame up. But, yeah, I appreciate that level of anxiety it can cause to make that jump, you know, to go. Actually, I'm just going to leave this behind. Do you have a question? [00:20:57] Speaker C: Yeah, well, so I ended. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. Justin, you still there? [00:21:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm here. I'm just listening. [00:21:07] Speaker A: I didn't think you could hear me. [00:21:09] Speaker B: Now I gotcha. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Sorry, Jeff. [00:21:12] Speaker C: I just thought. [00:21:13] Speaker B: Were you going to say, well, this is so interesting that you made the jump to the high country? Which was not. I was. So there was a few presuppositions I had after kind of learning about your story before this interview. One of them was one of the presuppositions that I had wrong was that you moved to the high country to pursue photography. I thought in my head, I was like, oh, yeah, okay. So he's like, living in the city, got this corporate job, loves photography, loves photographing the high country. Okay, I'm going to move there and make this a real thing. That was the first thing that I had wrong. I can't believe that you want what wasn't even a place that you had visited a ton. I'd love to know, like, how did you choose Omeo? How did you like that process of just going, that's it. We're moving. We're moving to the country and to, like, Omeo. For anyone listening, that's not. We've sort of said it's remote. Like, it's. Particularly from Bendigo, where I am, which isn't that far away if you're just on a map and you just get a ruler out. But for me to get there, it's. I think it's probably five and a half hours. No matter which way I go, there's no direct route. It's either up and over Mount Hotham, literally drive over the top of Mount Hotham to get to Omeo, or go around the other way, basically down through. Like, down through Melbourne and along the coast, or up and around. Like, there's no. There's no easy way to get to where you are. It's. [00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:37] Speaker B: So how did you pick it? [00:22:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Most people always ask. That's usually a question that comes because it is very remote. It's like, probably a town of like 400 people. It's quite small. So the reason why we moved here, we didn't pick the place so much, but so my wife has. Her grandparents had a holder house here. So she spent a lot of time up here. Yeah, so that's where the connection comes in. So she spent a lot of time up here as a kid. They had a holiday house and. Yeah, so for a long time when we started dating and stuff like that, she was trying to get me to come up here and I just wasn't interested. I think because I was a little younger and stuff like that and I was just not interested. Anyway, it was. I think it was late 2016. Yeah, we had, we had two kids and we were just wanting to get out of Melbourne because we were just really over the whole Melbourne scene and that's obviously part of why we moved. We didn't love Melbourne anymore. So we, we came up here for I think it was like a week or two weeks around Christmas. And yeah, we spent time up here. And she's a primary teacher and at the time she was on maternity leave, so she was with our second and she was working in a school in Cranbourne. Are you both Melbourne based? [00:24:03] Speaker B: I am Justin's Abedigo Bendigo turn off. [00:24:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, Cranberry. So she was working in a school of like 2, 000 kids and it just, again, it wasn't ideal for her in terms of what she wanted to do teaching wise, but that's where she ended up. So we're both kind of not really enjoying where our work was going and stuff like that. So when we came here there was a job actually going at the local primary school. And yeah, she just said maybe I should just apply for that job and just see what happens. Like, not really thinking we could move because we hadn't thought about it when we came up here just for a holiday. And then yeah, like two weeks. I was. About a week later she got an interview. So she came back up here just to see what happened because she was on maternity leave so she had time and yeah, she got the job. And she called me when I was at work again, one of those, those moments, pivotal moments. She called me at work just after I'd got scolded by my boss, [00:25:08] Speaker B: sales timing. [00:25:09] Speaker C: And we had. Yeah, we'd had like a meeting about sales and I wasn't meeting targets and all this and basically just. It was the worst scolding that me and my other colleague got. It was terrible. And she called me when I came out of the meeting and said I got the job. She goes, what do you want to [00:25:25] Speaker B: do [00:25:27] Speaker A: right in this moment? [00:25:31] Speaker C: So, yeah, so, yeah, basically we just said, okay, let's just do it. We kind of hadn't thought about moving, but we knew, I think we kind of instinctively knew this wasn't what we wanted long term. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:43] Speaker C: So we just said we'd give ourselves 12 months. She had a job, so that's why I could pull back and not have to stress too much initially. And yeah, so we just gave ourselves 12 months and said we'll go see what happens and if it doesn't work, we can come back. You know, it's. You know, it's not. Not too difficult to do it. And none of my kids were in school. My eldest was going into prep, so it was still an okay time to do that sort of stuff. They hadn't developed relationships and that sort of thing. So, yeah, so we. We basically came up here, we moved. I stayed down there for. About to sell the house and that sort of stuff. And. Yeah, and then 12 months. Basically just haven't looked back since. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I had no idea what I was going to do this. So this was pre Covid as well. So I ended up just basically doing. I don't know if you know, like. Yeah, I don't know if you know, like, financial planning, but with. With financial planning, you've got the advisor, so the person that speaks to clients, and then you got the back end. And basically with a financial planner, they sell financial plans and those financial plans have to be written. It's like a huge thick document that has to be written. So they have people in the office that write those. They're like the backend people. So there was a lot of. A lot of outsourcing of that going on at the time. A lot of it was going overseas, but there was a lot of Australian paraplan, as they call them, that were doing it. So, yeah, I just hooked up to an agency and basically was able to work remotely. So, yeah, before, like, work from home was a thing. Yeah, so it worked really well. So I could just work in this town and it wasn't a thing to do that then or it sort of was because some of it was going overseas. So, yeah, I just did that. I was just working as a contractor, but that gave me so much freedom to really pursue photography. So it worked really well from that perspective. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Now, I know this is a photography podcast and we are definitely going to talk about landscape photography, but I'd love to ask some more questions about this because I. This is fascinating to Me and I. I think maybe to people listening, despite the fact that the chat's not working. Although Lucinda managed to slip one through. She got a hello in through the. Whatever, the YouTube gatekeeper that's stopping all of the chats. And Phil Thompson's got a. A new member. Thanks for becoming a man. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Hey, thanks. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Phil Thompson's. But other than that. And. And Jim says. Morning, gents. Well, we've got three or four. Normally there'd be 90 by now, so something's dead. [00:28:15] Speaker C: Oh, really? Wow. Oh, yeah, it must be. It's definitely. [00:28:20] Speaker B: I've got four text messages from Dennis Smith. My comments aren't showing up. I can only see my 3. It's odd. It's definitely broken. It's nice to focus on the chat. Holy shit. Jeff is describing something so familiar. What a lovely energy he has. This is so nice. Dennis is using the. The podcast phone number as a. As a live chat with me, which is. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Live chat. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Private live chat. Anyway, so sorry if anyone's trying to comment, but I'm. I'm thinking that people listening to this now or later on might also be curious because this is like, it's something that everyone, I think, at some point, dreams about leaving the life that they've sort of ended up in, that maybe they didn't think was they didn't set out to end up in this life and that this is how they end up. And then they just, like, I just want to pack up and move somewhere, go somewhere cool, get a smaller place or whatever, live simply. I just want to know, like, first of all, what was. Can you give us a little bit of, like, expectations versus reality? Of, like, so you had this plan, all right, we're going to do it. I assume after you got that phone call, after the meeting with your boss, you walked straight back into his office and, like, swiped everything off his desk and told him that you quit. And is that what happened or is it. [00:29:37] Speaker C: No, it wasn't very Hollywood. It wasn't. It wasn't like that. No. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Missed your opportunity, Jeff. [00:29:43] Speaker C: I think, Yeah, I think I just went out and just was like. Could just deal with it and usually it would just be like complete stress and stuff like that. You know, what's. What's coming next. But yeah, I think I just walked out just feeling good about things and just knew. Yep. I'll tell you tomorrow or something like that. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. Well, yes. Okay, so what about. What about, like, the expectations of what life was going to be like when you moved versus now? So you've lived in Omeo now for how long? [00:30:15] Speaker C: So 2017. So what's today? Is that eight years? [00:30:20] Speaker B: Yeah, eight or nine. Yeah. [00:30:21] Speaker A: So. [00:30:21] Speaker B: So yeah, yeah, you've been there for a long time now. Like, what's it really like versus what you thought life was going to be like? Tell us about it. [00:30:31] Speaker C: Yeah, so to be honest, again, it was a different. Like there was no plan, which sounds a bit like loose, but sometimes that's probably the best way to do it because you don't have like, I guess, too many expectations. I think just keeping the plan and the idea quite loose where it was like, okay, we'll go there. You're. You've got a job. Like, so my wife has a job. We've got a. She had. I think it was a contract for 12 months as well. So with teaching, it's kind of like that. They won't just hire you immediately. It's like a contract. And then if things work, it's not like probation, but yeah, if, if, if it works and they can stay on. So we kind of like, okay, let's just work around that. So we've got 12 months and if, if we can make it work, we'll stay. And if not, we can easily just go back to Melbourne. Like I could go back into financial planning very easily. Yeah, maybe I just need 12 months off from it. And she was the same. So it was kind of quite loose. We didn't really know what we'd expect going into the town. We didn't really have any idea of what it is like moving to a small country town, which, yeah, we've come to realize now it can be difficult, especially a town like this where it is a bit clicky. There's a lot of people that have lived here their whole life and they just know how, you know, just know each other kind of thing. And then coming into the town, it's like, oh, who's this coming in kind of thing? [00:31:56] Speaker B: The new kid. [00:31:57] Speaker C: And I remember some. Pretty much, yeah. I think there was a lot more people that started moving to the country once Covid hit. But before that there wasn't so much. So I remember someone making some joke or saying something about moving to a small town like this is that everyone knows what you're doing on the weekend before you do. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Is that true? [00:32:22] Speaker C: Just know where you are kind of. Oh, sort of. Not really. But you know, like people are watching you when you come into the town. You don't know who they are kind of thing. And you know, you'd be, you know, once we'd been here for like 12 months. It was like you'd be saying something to someone, they'd be like, oh, I can drop something over. It's like, oh, I just live. And they're like, tomorrow I know where you live. People just know when they know someone new's coming. It's not like they're keeping it on you, but it's just small town kind of stuff. And I think also with this small town, it was quite kind of transient kind of town where that had a lot of people, like the people who lived here a long time that have people that would move here that invest in relationships with them and then they'd just disappear or they'd leave. Because it can be hard to make it work here. There's. There's not a lot of work opportunities. Like it's a farming kind of town and there's like, we've got like a little. A community center or like it's a hospital aged care facility where, you know, a lot of people work. But it can be hard for a couple to move here and both, both members of the couple getting a job. So I think people have moved here and then it hasn't worked. So I think the town has gotten used to people coming and then leaving. And it's like, well, you know, am I going to invest time into. Not to make it sound bad, but, you know, I can see it from their perspective. So it can be hard to kind of insert yourself into the community. But I think for us, what made it a whole lot easier was that my wife works at the school. So if you're not like within the community, you can be very much like an outsider. You know, there's the footy club, which is a big part of the, the town. So you can join that and get involved with that. And our kids are doing that now. But the fact that my wife was a teacher at the school, she kind of inserted herself and they could see, I guess the town could see that, you know, she was giving to the community. I'd also heard other things from other people that had, that had lived here for a while, that had moved from Melbourne, that their. That people's. I guess how they approach people change when they bought a house here. So most people would come up here like we did and just rent because they don't know what you're going to do. But once you buy a house, you're staying, so you're committed, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, okay, so you're sticking around. So that's just like the small town kind of stuff. [00:34:45] Speaker B: But. [00:34:45] Speaker C: But yeah, I guess from, you know, actually just living and maybe that's more what you're asking. It was a massive change coming from Melbourne and only knowing that. So I actually struggled with it more than my life probably for a good 12 months. I wasn't convinced we were going to stay even up to that 12 month mark just because I was so used to the Melbourne life and we actually kept going back quite frequently just because all our family there and stuff like that. But I think once that 12 months kind of passed, I've now become so used to it and we kind of could tell every time we went back to Melbourne. Each time we went back, we started to dislike coming into Melbourne more and more. Just like the traffic and traffic alone to like get an outside of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:35:37] Speaker B: I do wonder that. Is it something, is it kind of like trying to think of a good example? Because I struggle with it too. And Bendigo's, Bendigo's a hundred thousand person town. So it's not like a, it's not Omeo. But I wonder if you're in Melbourne and you sort of build up a tolerance to all this stuff and it's just normal, you're just operating at that level. It's cool. Daily life, autopilot. Yeah, well, not, not so much even autopilot, but it's just like you're, you have a, a built up tolerance to traffic and the speed that everything's going and all that kind of stuff and it doesn't bother you, but, but when you're not there and then you go down there, it sort of puts you in a state of like, just like heightened alert or something and it's, it's almost a little bit exhausting and unless I can be out and just wandering around the actual city or wherever. But one. But yeah, like going from suburb to suburb in cars and stuff like that, the thought of doing that on a daily basis, it stresses me out. [00:36:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'm the same. Sorry. Yeah, I was gonna say I feel, I feel like. It sounds strange but yeah, when I hit like kind of Barrick coming from where we are this way, that's where the traffic starts to build up. And yeah, I'm so much more alert on the roads and probably a bit more anxious on the roads, which I never used to be. I used to be just like. Yeah, I probably said autopilot because I could just sit on an autopilot on the roads, on the freeways, you know, five Six lanes or something like that and not be worried at all. But yeah, I'm 100 more alert of that sort of stuff and just like just. I think it's just being in Melbourne, it's just. There's just so much going on that I reckon, you know, after, like, because we go down to see the in laws, the kids, so they can see the grandparents and stuff like that, but after about three or four days, I'm kind of done, which isn't long. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Get back to the beautiful rolling green hills of Omeo and just relax. [00:37:33] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. [00:37:35] Speaker C: Yeah, the transition has taken a bit, but. [00:37:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and expect it to, you know, it's especially given that, you know, as you described it was. It was pretty much just rocked up went, hey, we're here. You know, we're gonna work this out, but we're here. So from that time, when did you, when did you start hanging out with your camera and realizing that actually there's a lot to explore here. Talk to us about that process of sort of picking up the camera more often, going out and realizing just how much inspiration you have around you in the high country. [00:38:15] Speaker C: Yeah, like it was. Once we got settled just into kind of country life, I guess, or just making sure it was all, you know, we had like the elders in school and we're just able to settle because it took a while to get, you know, a place to stay and that sort of stuff. But it was pretty much, you know, wasn't too long into being up there. Maybe like a month or two months. I started to get out a bit more, just explore. I was like, well, there's a lot here. And I just thought like I had like an old point and shoot camera or something like that, and it didn't take me long to realize I need something better than that. Yeah. You know how they say with camera gear, you know, you get this kind of obsession with camera gear in the early stages and you're just buying stuff because it's, it's cool or it's better and stuff like that. But realistically, you should only really upgrade when the camera you've got is not doing what you need it to do. So I did that pretty quick into it. The wife wasn't overly impressed because I'd come up there, I don't have a job, and then cameras start buying cameras. [00:39:22] Speaker B: You're like, trust me, it'll. It'll work out. Yeah. [00:39:27] Speaker C: So I just bought. I think it was like a Canon. I can't remember. It might have been Like a fart. [00:39:37] Speaker B: What are they, the full frame or crop sensor? [00:39:41] Speaker C: Yeah, full frame. The old. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Yeah, there was a sick. A 6D was pretty popular as. As not as it wasn't quite as expensive otherwise. 5D3 or 5D4? [00:39:51] Speaker C: Yes, I think it was a 5D3. Like I got something like. Yeah, on. On like, I don't even know what it was back then, like ebay or something like that. But yeah, I just picked up something cheap and just got like one lens. I think it was like a 24 to 70 or something like that. So, yeah, I just, I got that and then just started really experimenting. And yeah, from going from like that point and shoot to having full frame, you know, camera with all the, you know, the manual settings and then having the subject matter of the landscape here, I was just like, whoa. I just. Yeah, there was just something that just switched on. I just was. All my time was focused on just thinking about it, learning about it, being out in the landscape. What I tell a lot of people when, like on workshops and stuff like that is just the learning comes so much from just being out in the landscape with the camera. [00:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:46] Speaker C: And I kind of did that without knowing that that's what I needed. Like, I was spending a lot of time on YouTube watching tutorials and that sort of stuff. But yeah, I was just out in the landscape a lot and just failing, essentially. That's what I was doing. You know, that's the only way you can learn. So, yeah, it didn't take too long for me to do that. But yeah, I was just out with it a lot. And it was. Yeah, it was an interesting time because it was like I was learning with the camera and failing, but I kind of didn't care because of how amazing I was just. I was just blown away with how amazing the landscape was. So everything was just. Yeah, great. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Do you, do you remember any, any images or trips early on where you really. Like when you had this new camera where you were like this. This could turn into something more than just cruising around. Was there a moment or a photo that you took or something where you were like, I'm actually. I'm actually pretty good at this. This is something I could take to another level. [00:41:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's weird you ask that because I, I usually don't remember all that stuff. My memory is pretty bad. But like, I do remember the place we were staying. It was actually the old holiday house that my wife's grandparents had. So we were just staying there for a little bit until we could Stay until we could get our own place. It was just out on like remote farmland and yeah, I was just up the back of the, the house and like, you know, some hills and stuff like that with the kids and they were just mucking around. So I had the cameras. I was just taking a lot of photos of the kids. And I remember it was like kind of in the afternoon. So I'd been reading about golden hour and all that sort of stuff and I think that was it when like the light was kind of coming through like the trees over the hills. Yeah. And just noticing, I guess it was probably just noticing the effect light has. So originally it was more just kind of not happy snaps, but just taking photos of landscape but not really thinking about it and then just discovering I guess light and how it can change a scene and that sort of stuff. I guess everyone at some point has that experience. But yeah, I think it went from there where it was like seeing what the light can do and then going whoa. So I guess this is just a photo of my kids, but imagine what it could do to, you know, a mountainscape or something like that. So that, that's kind of where I started to get a bit excited about it and realizing potential. And yeah, you go through that period of it not being that good because you don't know how to use the camera and all that sort of stuff. So there is a lot of failings and there is a big period of just going really, do I, do I understand this or why my photos looking like this and that sort of stuff. But I think being where I was kind of kept me motivated. I think that's I guess what you need if you're not motivated. It's easy to, you know, maybe when you're failing and lose motivation, it's easy probably to do that. But yeah, the landscape probably just kept me motivated, if that sounds, if that makes sense. [00:43:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, you described that change and still found not hearing about that change. And you know, you decided just to leave and go up there for 12 months. Your wife was pregnant at the time. Plus, you know, it's a lot, but it's the flip side of that is that you have the time to actually explore your craft, to look into it and do so while spending time with the kids and really get out there and put a test to it. I mean you're completely self taught in photography. Talk to us a little bit more. That sort of trial, you call it failing, but really failure is just learning to do it differently next time hopefully. [00:44:40] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:44:44] Speaker A: What? Couple of questions around that. You know, you studied graphic design and you've always liked to draw. What elements from those disciplines do you see coming through in how you took photos? [00:45:00] Speaker C: Yeah, so I think there was a lot of that where. I think I didn't realize that. There was a lot of time periods where I didn't realize things. I could kind of feel it, if that makes sense. Like, intuitively something wasn't really right or something wasn't working and stuff like that. But I couldn't really know what that was until I had the experience and could reflect back on those sorts of things. But I think the. Yeah, there are a lot of similarities with, I guess, painting and artistry and a lot of photographers, landscape photographers, are inspired by old painters and that sort of stuff. So I think there was those sorts of things like knowing. How can I say, knowing a good photo and because it might have, like, good light and that sort of stuff, you can know a good photo of a landscape and you. You can start to recognize why something's good because of the light in the painting or whatever it is. But then once you actually put that together with a camera and go, oh, okay. That's how, you know, that's how that works. I think there was those sorts of similarities where I maybe try and recreate certain things that I'd, you know, seen in like, kind of my previous. Previous life and stuff like that, you know, with art and all that sort of stuff. Graphic design, probably not so much until I started to get into more of the intimate kind of landscape stuff. And that's where that really started to. To come through, where I started to get more interested in more intimate kind of detailed scenes and that sort of stuff and using elements like. Or visual elements and patterns, lines, shapes, all that sort of stuff. So that's where that really came in for me. And that's where I kind of. I think photography started to change for me when I started to really get interested in that sort of style of landscape photography, if that makes sense. [00:46:53] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you run into it. What was it? Let's get into it. Looking into smaller details in nature. You ran that workshop at BFOP last year for those that maybe don't have a full understanding of intimate landscape, because for most people who say landscape photos, they expect sweeping vistas, mountain ranges. Talk to us a little bit more about intimate landscape and nature photography. How would you define that? [00:47:22] Speaker C: So I guess, yeah, some people call them, refer to them as small scenes or vignettes of the landscape, you know, but there's also the intimate landscape, which isn't really a new thing either in landscape photography. I think it became popular probably because, you know, social media and that sort of stuff, but it's been around for a long time. But it's basically just taking, I guess it's hard to explain. I think the best way to describe it is the landscape without including, like the sky, for example. So it's usually not including. It's not a wide vista or anything. That's basically not a wide vista. So scene, it's a part of the landscape. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:06] Speaker C: So it could be. And it's. It's usually based on smaller details, noticing smaller details within the landscape. So as opposed to, you know, noticing like, you know, a mountain range or something like that, it might be pinpointing specific trees or the light hitting a certain part of the landscape. It could be anything from that to, you know, even down to kind of macro kind of things as well. So just instead of taking. Using flowers, for example, which is common in a. In a wide vista scene, as a foreground interest, you might actually use the flowers as the main subject. So you just take a photo and fill the frame with that subject, for example. Yeah. So it's being much more zooming in. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:52] Speaker C: It's being much more aware of details within the landscape rather than the broader landscape. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm interested to know because. So I. I kind of define myself as a street photographer. That's what I love doing the most. But I also started doing macro and I've. I've talked about how much those two genres change the way I see the world. So when I'm doing street, I'm at eye level, everything's looking up, looking up at the buildings for background of interest. And then when I pick up my camera to do macro, I'm hunched over and I'm bent down. I'm looking at the ground so intently. And it's stuff that, you know, people walk past every day. But because you become more mindful about it and committed to finding those details, what is that differentiation like for you between when you go from those, you know, how does that affect how you see things? When you. You've spent, say, you know, a weekend doing wide vista landscapes, and then Tuesday you decide to go out and do some intimate stuff. Do you find that there's a transition or an adjustment period for you to change the way you see things? [00:49:57] Speaker C: Yeah, there is. Primarily. I'm mostly shooting more of the detail scenes these days. So it was interesting when I was transitioning from, like, when I Started like all landscape photographers, I start with the more vista kind of scenes. But it is, it's noticing things that are different. I guess when you're shooting wide vistas, you're more like, you need good light. That's one thing that you need. Usually with that you need good light and good subject matter obviously as well. But with more intimate scenes you don't need like because there's generally not a sky, so you're not dependent on morning or sunset. You can really shoot at any time of day. But when you're actually going through the landscape, you're really trying to notice specific things within the landscape. You're more focused on things that might. Small things that might grab your attention. So walking through like the bush, for example, you might be looking for certain colors in the trees or. You know, a lot of the time when I try and go out, I do most of my shooting generally in the cooler months. So a lot of it is condition based as well. So I might just go out when we get a lot of fog up here, obviously snow as well. But I'll go out when the conditions are right and then I'll be trying to find things that stand out within that landscape. That. Yeah, that. I guess that they're things that you just walk past every day and regular people will just not notice. So it's probably just trying to bring attention to those little things and just notice, I guess. You know, it sounds cliche, but the beauty within the landscape that the real small things and, and a lot of the time it's making something interesting out of something that's quite dull and boring. Making. Creating something a bit more artistic or creative rather than just shooting more of a documentary style shot of just. Okay, that's the landscape, you know, trying to find certain visual elements within the landscape or patterns and trying to create an image out of that. [00:52:03] Speaker A: Very cool. [00:52:05] Speaker C: How [00:52:08] Speaker B: like when it comes to landscape photography, like obviously you've got a broad range of subjects, although it is fairly focused on the high country. But like looking through your work, there is, it's not all the same thing. There is everything you say you're doing more intimate now, but there is a broad range from wide vistas to intimate. And what I would I maybe describe like a lot of your alpine work in the snow, it's. It's kind of like in between, it's like it's not a grand vista, but it's also not a tiny sort of intimate detail. It's a tree, it's a group of trees or something like that. It's kind of like a mid, a mid range shot somewhere. [00:52:48] Speaker C: It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:52:50] Speaker B: And, but it all works and like how like style transcends those, those I guess, sub genres and you have a style about your photography. How do you think about style when it comes to landscape photography and what you do and what you try to create? [00:53:12] Speaker C: Like creating my own style, do you mean? [00:53:15] Speaker B: Yeah, like the look, is it something that you have tried to create or is it just the way that you see things? It's just naturally the way you see the world and you haven't even had to give a thought to your, your style or the way you create your images? Or is it something you've crafted and intentionally worked on over the years since you started? [00:53:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's probably a bit of both. I remember again in those early days learning about landscape photography and I can talk about that as well, a bit moving, transitioning from shooting just the wide vistas to more of the, the, yeah, I guess mid range, kind of intimate scenes and noticing more details rather than, you know, shooting a wide landscape. But I remember in those early days people, like when I was watching on YouTube, people would talk about your style and you've got to have a style. You know, there's always these kind of trends in photography and YouTube and stuff like that and you know, what's going to get views. So at that time people were talking about that a lot and to stand out on, you know, Instagram or whatever, you've got to have a look and stuff like that. So I was trying to initially try and create that, but I didn't really know what that was. I think it's because I just didn't understand my own photography and what I was trying to achieve. And then I think once I stopped thinking about that and just started focusing on like my work and what I wanted to show and how I went about photographing it, I think it just kind of created itself in a way until one day someone had said, oh, you've got a certain look. I was like, oh, really? Like, what is that? And yeah, some people have said it's. It's kind of. Some shots have like a bit of a painterly look and that sort of a thing. So I think that naturally just came from me figuring out what I liked and what I didn't like. So, you know, a lot of landscape photographers, not all, but will shoot real dramatic scenes. So they'll edit it quite dramatically as well with like, you know, dark, moody skies and all that sort of stuff. I kind of enjoyed the opposite way. And that might. Because of my artistic kind of background, I kind of liked a lower contrast type look and maybe a bit more painterly by focusing, say, a certain subject and then blurring the background, or not blurring the background, but just having a bit out of focus and using that technique to bring more attention to a specific subject, and that kind of created a bit more of a painterly look. So it probably wasn't something that I thought about or it. Sorry. It was something I thought about initially, but then when I couldn't figure out how to create a style, I just started doing my own thing and I think I've just stuck with that. And. Yeah, I don't know if that really answers your question, but. [00:56:03] Speaker B: No, it does. [00:56:03] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's just. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah, like, that's. That is the exact answer. [00:56:08] Speaker A: That. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Or not the exact answer, but that's that idea of, like, if you. If you're constantly thinking about creating a style, you might. You might have better luck if you just let go of that thought and just go out and make images and then look, look back two years later and someone says, oh, you've got a great style. And you think, oh, do I? Yeah, but. But if you're constantly searching for it, trying to be like, what's my style? What's my style? Your brain might be too occupied to actually just. Just create the thing that. That's sitting there waiting for you. I guess. I don't know what I'm trying to [00:56:42] Speaker C: say, but, yeah, I think so. I think when you're trying. Yeah, like, when you. If you're trying to create a certain style, what you're going to do probably first is go look at other people's styles that you like and then unintentionally, probably start making images that look like theirs. So, you know, there's a lot that can be said about influence from other people's images, and I went through that phase as well of trying to recreate images from what I'd seen on Instagram and that sort of stuff. But I think again, in that kind of confusing stage of what am I doing or not, what am I doing, but what kind of look or what kind of image am I trying to show here? And that sort of stuff, I think once you stop thinking about that stuff and just doing what you like, I think that can help you unintentionally create your own style. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think there's. Yeah, there's a lot to be said for that. Organic. Let's just see what comes from it. Let's just get out and enjoy the process. Let's go and shoot the things that I want to shoot. And you're right. I think it is an organic. I don't think you can force it, not without replicating others to the point where your work just should be on their Instagram page. You know, there's nothing gained from that. Yeah, okay, you've mastered a style, but is it yours? There's nothing unique about it. And I know it sounds a bit harsh. I don't mean it to be harsh because everyone gets to that point in their own way. But it is interesting hearing about these organic outcomes for you that, you know, all the way through this, that, well, let's just go there and see what happens. You know, I'll quit my job and we'll see what happens. I'll start taking photos and I'll see what happens, you know, and. And the things that are happening are things that you found a happy place with, that you found contentment. [00:58:28] Speaker C: Yeah, even. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:30] Speaker A: And I think there's a. There's a lot to be said for that, especially in. In today's world where contentment seems to be something that you have to purchase, you know, rather than discover it yourself. [00:58:43] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. [00:58:45] Speaker A: But [00:58:48] Speaker C: no, it is, it is like that because, yeah, I guess it can be hard to try and take that approach, particularly if people like you said that my story might resonate with people and they're like, oh, yeah, I'd like to do that. And then you start thinking of what that outcome might look like, and then how do I get to that outcome? And then everything starts becoming a process and what did you do? And you start forcing yourself into this thing of doing what other people did, which I think can help initially. But then, yeah, I think, you know, to be doing something that you enjoy and you're getting enjoyment out of long term, you know, you've really got to be doing it for yourself rather than trying to achieve a specific, you know, goal, whether it's financially or, you know, having attention on social media and that sort of stuff. And that. That's probably where it came for me, that the turning point for me was that, like, I stopped worrying about trying to build a big Instagram account, you know, that sort of stuff in those early days of where, you know, landscape photography was, you know, the big dramatic scenes, massive foregrounds and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, I tried recreating that and I just, just. I just wasn't feeling it. I think maybe because, like, when I'd recreated. I'd look at other people's and go, oh, theirs is so much better. Why isn't mine performing that well? So you get stuck in these kind of, these things. I was like, I'm not, I'm not demoralizing level, so I'll just. Yeah, yeah, it can be. And I think once I realized I wasn't going to get to that level, you know, quickly, I should just do what I want to do and. And then. Yeah. See what goes from there. [01:00:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:25] Speaker B: Do you, do you think that like Instagram kind of in the earlier days, I guess, maybe what, 2010 to 2015. When did Instagram start anyway? Sometime around that period of time. Landscape photography, there were people like, their accounts were just. Some people were like rocket ships, their accounts. They were getting hundreds of thousands of followers. Obviously they're creating cool images, great images that grab people's attention in the feeds and stuff like that. And then it seemed like there was a bunch of landscape photographers that kind of started at the tail end of that. And I don't know if this was you or not. And it's like you saw some success early on in posting and you get lots of likes and stuff like that. And then as the platform changed to be more video oriented and things like that, or maybe people had seen too many photos of mountains that looked amazing with beautiful sunsets and things like that. So they're kind of like they've seen this before. But it seemed like it became a lot harder to grow a following as a landscape photographer as the years ticked on. Is that, is that something you saw at all? Whether it was with your own work or with, with other people's accounts that you followed or things like that? Did it kind of become less, less hyped? I don't know what the, what the right word is, but it seemed like it went through a bit of a cycle of when everyone was. Was packing on tons of followers and then now maybe it is a lot harder. [01:01:55] Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah. When I came into it, I think that had maybe. Yeah, maybe was at the tail end of it. But yeah, my, my account never really took off with the massive followings that people got in the early stages. I think I kind of missed that. And it was probably also because I wasn't posting the real attention seeking stuff. So when I kind of came into it, that was the big thing. And people were still building big followings, but they were following a particular format where it was just the 4x5 crop, the portrait, you know, vertical kind of images. [01:02:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yep. [01:02:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And so the. The big. What were they? What are they like? The. The accounts where they'd share everyone else's images. Like, they'd have like a big, you know. Australia. Australia. Yeah. So. [01:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:02:53] Speaker C: So all those. And they'd aggregate blowing up. Yeah, yeah, they were like. I can't remember there was a word for them. Yeah, those sorts of accounts. And there were some, like, big Australian ones and there's still some around, but they were a big thing and that was what people were. How they were building followings. They. [01:03:08] Speaker B: And you wanted to get featured on them because then if you got featured, you'd be likely to pick up some followers because they had 600,000 or something. And then, I don't know, some of those people would come over to your account because you got featured on. I can't. Yeah, you're right. I can't remember the name of that, but they were massive. There was some really. [01:03:25] Speaker C: That was. Yeah, that was huge. Yeah, there was some real big ones. Yeah. And I'd be. That was just like that time where it's just like I'd be looking at other people's images and just going like, they're like. My images seem similar to that. So why are they getting featured on there? And I'm, you know, that whole period that you go through initially in. In social media, why are they getting in? Why am I not kind of thing. And it's hard to kind of pull back from that or step away from it and just not worry about it so much. [01:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:55] Speaker C: But, yeah, so that was a big thing at the time and people were blowing up on that. And I remember also. I don't know if you've had him on your podcast. Do you know Will Patino? [01:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he. Haven't had him on the podcast, but yeah. Yeah, from very early on, I think someone bought him one of our camera straps or he bought a camera strap. I think this is. I think this was before he moved to New Zealand. But he was. He had quite a strong social media he did going on and. And like, he was. Yeah, he was gaining popularity, making great images and all that kind of stuff, but I haven't really connected with him anytime in the last year recently at all. [01:04:34] Speaker C: We should try to get him on the podcast. No, no worries. Yeah, Like, I just got to know him because I attended one of his workshops in my early kind of days. And not just kind of. Every now and then I still touch base with him. But yeah, I'd spoken to him about that, that he was one of those Kind of early adopters in Instagram. And he was telling me what it was like back then, where he'd just go out in the morning and they coast, take a photo of sunrise, and, you know, he might post it later that night, and he'd wake up the next day and he'd just have, like, thousands of likes. He'd just be like, wow. So, yeah, he got onto the real early stage of where whatever he posted it was just blowing up his account massively. And I remember talking to him like, you know, when I started, so that was probably maybe 2020 or something like that, after I've been doing it for a few years, that he was like. Like, he built it on the back of, you know, a big following. What he's doing today, obviously, his work's amazing as well. So people go, yeah. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And that's the thing. Like, we're not about any of these. I'm not saying the images weren't. Weren't great, but they just kind of got an acceleration at that time because the platform form really liked images. People really liked the images, and it sort of blunted. [01:05:52] Speaker C: But he was saying that if he had to start, like, now, like, I was. He. He knows he wouldn't. He wouldn't be able to create it the way he did without even really thinking about it. He doesn't really. He didn't put too much into it, but he doesn't know if he could be bothered doing it now because of how much harder it. It is. [01:06:10] Speaker A: Well, it is harder. The algorithms are so tricky to understand and. And navigate. And, you know, people that I follow, I don't see their images for weeks and weeks and weeks, you know, and all of a sudden, it'll pop up two months later. It's like, oh, that was a great photo. But it was two months ago. What have you done since? You know, like, it. Yeah, it's just all over the shop and the ads. Just the ads alone. [01:06:32] Speaker C: Yeah, it's really bad. It's quite demoralizing to a point. It is, yeah. I still just post it on there for, like, that's where I post my stuff and on Facebook and I just do it for, you know, my followers. But, yeah, every now and then I just, like, it's gotten to its worst point and then it seems to get worse. It just keeps getting worse. In terms of engagement. Like, you don't think it can get any worse. Yeah, yeah. And you can tell from, like, you know. You know, I don't try to focus on followers or. Or likes, but you know, I just even speak to other people that are similar to myself where they don't take it too seriously, but they'll still post. And it's just like that. The platform's just gone so downhill where, yeah, people aren't even seeing the images of the people that they follow, like you said. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah, just. Just constantly trying to feed me new stuff. [01:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, it's. [01:07:27] Speaker C: And there's been some platforms that have tried to kind of take over, like, try and do replicate that again, and it just hasn't worked. Which is interesting because everyone, you know, everyone that's on Instagram says how bad it is, but there's nothing else like it, if that makes sense. Like, no, no, no other platform can really build up that kind of, I guess, attention that you can get or, or how you can have other people see your work. [01:07:52] Speaker B: And that's the problem is we've had attempts to recreate better photography platforms and then the issue everyone talks about, one issue is there's multiple of them. So it's like, which one are we all going to? Because no one really wants to be on one that 50% of the people aren't on. But then the next thing is, then it's just photographers looking at photographers work. And as much as that can be nice to see other people's work, we also want the ability for the broader world to be exposed to our work if it is deemed good enough by, you know, just, just attention. And that's kind of like, I guess we, we. The. The one benefit to the, the algorithmic approach that there is now is the fact that if you put something out that's amazing, it doesn't matter if you've got a hundred followers or a hundred thousand followers, if it's amazing, an amazing piece of content, the algorithm will show it to more people on your behalf. And that is kind of cool. Yeah, that idea that you don't have to have a huge audience to have a million people see something. Because if it, if it goes, wow, everyone loves this, let's just show it to everyone. That's pretty cool. The issue is that's really only working for like sensationalized content now, as opposed to maybe more, well, images that are just a beautiful shot of a tree doesn't tend to go viral like that. It needs to be like, I don't know, a fight McDonald's or something. [01:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a challenge because places like Instagram promised us in the early days to be a place where we could display our work. We could show photos, we could celebrate photography and, you know, and it was, it was effective. And now it, I feel like it's. And we've said this a few times on the show when talking to people that it now feels like we're working for Instagram. We're feeding it, you know, it's not, it's not supporting us as much anymore at all. It's got a completely different agenda now to what it began as. And that's, that's the nature of evolution of those sorts of things. But I feel like the, the pendulum has swung far, too far, too far to the right, you know, that it's, it's kind of. It feels like it's lost track of what it's. What it was supposed to achieve or what it can achieve. We know it works. [01:10:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Anyway, I think a lot of it came from like, other social media platforms, like TikTok for example. Yeah, that's how it kind of came. That they just dominated as soon as they came here. It was huge. Like, I'm not on it, but that just dominated. So I guess, you know, Instagram, the CEO is looking at that going. They're just taking so much of the attention, so they had to. We got a computer that seems like, yeah, it's just gone that way for so long. And even YouTube, I guess YouTube was taking a lot of attention as well, so. But yeah, that. I think what you're saying there as well, Justin, about, about you can show something and not have a big following and it can really be seen by a lot of people. I think YouTube's kind of going down that. Or that's where the kind of algorithm with YouTube. Not that I know a lot about it, but I've heard, you know, there's a lot of small accounts that are just. If they're showing good quality content, they're actually getting quite a lot of exposure now as well. [01:11:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. Which is. Which is promising. It makes you, it makes you feel. Not like you're, you know, you're going to have to do. Make videos for 15 years to have any chance or whatever. You're like, oh, wow, the ne. The next video I make could get even maybe not, you know, 100,000 views, but it certainly could get. I've made videos, like some of the videos on this channel that I just made with like a chesty camera. I think a couple of them up over 10,000 views or whatever, which for me, like. And that was when, when the channel had, I don't know, 500 followers or something, like that, you know, like it's, and it's heart now it makes you go, okay, that, like it's worth doing this and, and not every video ends up like that, but it sort of. And yeah, so there are good, there's pros and cons to the, the algorithmic style of things. And that pro is that, yeah, you don't have to have a giant following to have a chance at being seen. [01:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's just rewarding good quality content rather than following like a specific formula that they want you to follow. [01:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Just, let's just take a quick, quick break for an ad read if you [01:12:32] Speaker B: don't mind a couple of things about [01:12:35] Speaker A: algorithms, talking about the, the YouTubes and the Instagrams. If you're new here to the camera life, welcome. We do this twice a week. Every Thursday morning at 9am Australian Eastern Time, currently daylight savings time, we interview an amazing photographer such as the likes of Jeff Freestone, about their craft and their journey and everything else that goes along with that. And then every Monday evening, 7:30pm, every Monday evening we have the random photography show where we talk about industry news, we do live unboxings, and sometimes we'll have a special guest co host and we'll have a chat to them about something that they've been working on. But more important importantly, on Monday nights, the segment that we love the most is your images. You get to send us your photos with a little description and some specs and some settings, I mean, not specs. And we'll show them on the show and we'll have a chat about them and you can just send your images to justinuckystraps.com yeah, that's the one. [01:13:35] Speaker B: And just a little side note, this is a bit of an odd episode because for some reason YouTube isn't playing ball with the live chat because this is a live podcast. Podcast and you can listen to it later, but when it's live, you can jump in the live chat and actually ask questions or chat about when it's working in the live chat, when it's working. But unfortunately today we've only had six managed to come through. Philip Johnson's become a new member. Thank you, Philip. That's really cool. And other than that, nothing's come through. But our, our good friend Dennis Smith is live chatting via my telephone and he has another message that I'm going to read out. And that is Jeff needs to know that if the live chat was working, it would be on fire. This is so timely and full of Gold. So beautiful, so nice. Thanks. Dennis is enjoying the chat. [01:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah. There is a known Facebook issue right as we speak. [01:14:25] Speaker B: We're not on Facebook. [01:14:26] Speaker A: Sorry, YouTube. Sorry, sorry. YouTube issue. I just checked it out on Reddit. There's definitely something going on this morning for live chat comments specifically. So we're sorry folks. Hopefully those comments will appear later, but they may not come. [01:14:41] Speaker B: Come on Monday night show and just. And dump all your chat comments in there or leave them in the comments on this interview afterwards. There are normal comments on YouTube, you know, afterwards that you can just throw down the bottom and we can jump in there and Jeff might even. We can direct him to answer any questions that you might have. Oh, actually it's a good time to. To say that Jeff does have a YouTube channel, Creative Light Photography or it's at Jeff Underscore Freestone. And he started pumping out videos again. [01:15:11] Speaker A: What. [01:15:11] Speaker B: When did you restart sort of posting? [01:15:13] Speaker C: A month or two ago probably. Yeah, probably November. Ish. I think I started recording. Recording again. So yeah, just trying to get a bit more consistency back with it and yeah, just enjoying the process. So it's a good way connecting. You know, I really just started it because I felt like. Like we've been talking about is that it's just, you know, connecting on Instagram is just. It's gone downhill so much and it's so hard to connect with an audience. So I just thought YouTube and what I'd seen from others connecting on there and just being able to show, you know, what I actually do out in the field as well, rather than just showing up like the end result which everyone sees on Instagram, it's like, okay, he's got that, but let's actually see what he's doing out in the field. I just thought that would be something interesting for. For people to see. [01:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. [01:16:08] Speaker B: And so go and subscribe because what. So what. What sort of videos can people expect to. To get? What will they likely learn over on your YouTube channel? [01:16:17] Speaker C: Yeah, so at the moment I've just done in the field videos. So me just going out, taking the camera with me on a shoot and just seeing my process out in the field, things that I think about, I am still just kind of adjusting to speak. Still adjusting to speaking of the camera. So that's a hard thing. And I don't script anything like. So. And I don't really try and think about it too much. I'll just kind of wing it in a way. But. But yeah, just getting used to verbalizing the stuff to which I Usually just think in my own head when I'm doing it is another technique trying to learn. But yeah, just basically going out in the field, showing what I do. But I've also done a few post processing videos as well. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that about your, your video collections. There's sort of, you know. Yes, there's the field stuff which a lot of people will learn from and get inspiration from as well. But then I love that you've also experienced, included the after the end to end process basically of a shoot. Which is great because I think more people need to do that sort of stuff to show others, you know, gatekeeping. You know, gatekeeping doesn't, doesn't help the craft grow, you know. And I love that you're putting this stuff out there, which is great. [01:17:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And I also want to start doing a few more kind of, kind of like theory based videos or just explaining concepts and those sorts of things because they can be hard to do out in the field. So, you know, being out of it or you're dealing with challenging conditions and that sort of stuff, sometimes it could be hard to explain certain things about like composition and that sort of stuff. So I wouldn't mind doing some of that just to go kind of like a deep dive kind of thing into some of that stuff as well. So yeah, just try and mix it up, I guess. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. [01:18:05] Speaker A: And we look forward to more coming out. Speaking of being out in the field, you know, you're a Melbourne city kid working out of a corporate office. Had you had much experience with the snow before and, and what was it like venturing into the high country, you know, as a city kid when there was snow? [01:18:23] Speaker C: Yeah, again, that was another eye opening thing for me. I'd never seen snow. I had to go to Germany to see snow, so I'd never seen snow before. Yeah, yeah. So like when we lived over in the uk, the first time I saw snow was. Yeah. Traveling around Europe. So yeah, I didn't come up here and see it at all. So deprived as a child. Parents never brought me up here. So. Yeah, so that was really interesting. That was great though, because it was different because, you know, like my wife hates the snow. Even though we live here, she, she loves living where we are, but just can't stand the snow. So you either enjoy it because you're doing something up there, but if you just, if you're just up there and you got, you've got no goal of either photography or snowboarding or skiing, it can be a bit of A miserable place. But yeah, seeing, but being up there with the camera and, and trying to figure that out. That yeah, I do love winter. That's. Winter and autumn are my favorite months. But winter up here is just, we get a good snow season but it is, it's a whole different ball game with photography. It's. Yeah trying to, because a lot of my shooting is very kind of take a slow approach, notice the details and, and that sort of stuff. So trying to remain in that and getting to that kind of like flow state of you know, trying to just remove all distractions in your mind and just try and start, you know, being within the landscape and noticing things can be challenging when you've got, got, you know, 100k winds or it's snowing and that sort of stuff. So yeah, yeah, it has been, it's a, it's a great challenge. Every year brings something new. So yeah, I do, I do enjoy it but it was hard to get used to. [01:20:16] Speaker A: And what, what took you by surprise the most? I mean you know, heading into, heading into the high country, heading into snow when you're not used to it. What was surprising for you the most? You know, was it stuff that you thought I'll be right without gloves or I'll be right without a beanie or you know, I don't need my filters. What was the biggest learning from those early snow experiences that maybe presented a challenge bigger than it should have been. [01:20:47] Speaker C: I think the main thing and when I prepare people for coming because I run workshops up in Dinner Play and Mount Hotham during the snow season, it's just being from a photography perspective, it's just being prepared clothing wise. So making sure that whatever clothing you're wearing is going to allow you to not get cold or not be or not get wet especially as well because once you get like wet, wet socks or something like that or wet, you know, anything, it's just game over. So just having the right clothing. Yeah, yeah. So you want to be clothed to be able to just focus on your photography. But that can be a challenge to figure out as well because when I initially did it I just went all out and just got so much stuff and I would, I, I actually found that I just got so hot like surprisingly too quick. So I was just stripping off and because depends on what you're doing. But yeah, I'll go out into the snow and be walking, you know, knee deep snow and trying to get places so you can, you've got to find that balance of having clothes that's going to keep you warm, but obviously allow you to move around and not get, you know, I guess, too hot. So layering is really good for that sort of stuff. But yeah, just having like the right shoes. My hands. Everyone has different things that go first. Like in terms of getting cold, my hands are the first to go. So just having the right gloves. Bit of a shout out for OTEX there. I use the OTEX gloves. They're. They're really good winter gloves. [01:22:16] Speaker B: Have you, have you ever tried Valeret gloves? Can we, can we tempt you across to the dark side? They're, they're very similar. They're from, from a friend of mine. We sell them through our website in Australia. That's all. [01:22:29] Speaker C: It's. [01:22:29] Speaker B: They're very similar. [01:22:31] Speaker C: Oh, sorry. Flip back fingers. [01:22:32] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no. [01:22:34] Speaker B: It's totally fine. We, it's, we even love having people come on the podcast, talk about the camera straps and stuff that they use that aren't our camera straps. We don't really care. It's, it's, it's more. It's really important for people that haven't bought this kind of stuff to know what works and what doesn't work from photographers that have used it. And I think that's, that's super important because online you can look and you can see these different brands and you're like, oh, I think that'll work. But when you can hear from someone that's actually used it in the, yeah. Out in the, in the weather and says, yep, these work, then you know, you're not getting stitched up by some company that's made an average product. I think that's. Yeah, yeah. [01:23:13] Speaker C: 100. I have tried gloves. Oh yeah, I have had that gloves and they're. Oh, they're great quality. They're fantastic quality. There's, They've got a massive range as well. [01:23:25] Speaker B: They do have a big range. It's tricky a little bit for people to. We get a lot of emails, people trying to figure out which one they need because I think they've got, got six or seven models. Very. Yeah. And under gloves and Arctic mitts and all sorts of stuff. They're a little, they're pretty specialized because they're, they're based in Norway. The founder used to do like, as well as photography, but like ran like sled dog tours in the Arctic Circle and things like that. So they're, they're very familiar with the winter world. So they're quite particular on, like. Well, this is the sort of glove you should have for this setting. And this is the sort of glove you should have for this setting kind of thing, as opposed to like a one or two across the board. But in Australia, in Australian winter, there's really only like a couple of gloves that you really need. You know, we don't get deep winter, we don't get arctic conditions. [01:24:19] Speaker C: That's right. [01:24:20] Speaker B: You know what it's like? Like you want to be warm, but you don't want to have like this giant mitt on your hand that you can't do anything with. So, yeah, it's a good balance. [01:24:29] Speaker C: Yeah, not the Valerie gloves. And the quality is phenomenal. Great quality. Like you can just tell as soon as you. You get them. They're great gloves. The only reason why I went with OTEX is the guy reached out to me, he's an Australian guy, I think he's in Melbourne. He'd seen my videos, so he just said, yeah, you want to check them out? I was happy to. And yeah, they're great. They, they're very similar probably to the Valorant gloves as well, in terms of functionality and that sort of stuff they kept my hands on. I'm pretty simple with, like, with a lot of this sort of stuff. As long as it does the job. Like really. Yeah, you know, it does what I need it to. So, yeah, the Valeret or OTEX would definitely provide, you know, good protection. Yeah. [01:25:12] Speaker B: My only advice would be if you can't get somewhere to try them on, make sure that you can, and I'm sure OTEX allow that. Make sure you can return them or whatever. Because you want to make sure that they like to swap over for sizes. Because you want to make sure that they're not too loose. Because otherwise you. Because these, you can operate your camera with the fingers flipped back. If they're too loose, it's. Your fingers don't poke out far enough. And if they're too tight, it's just uncomfortable. So you'd want to get. Make sure you get the right size so that you can actually still operate your camera and be warm. Otherwise you would just want to take them off and then you'll get cold hands. [01:25:44] Speaker C: It's exactly right. Yeah. Glad you said that because the first pair I got, I think I. Yeah, I went a size up and it within like one shoot. I knew they just, it was annoying, just the slightest things of being a little bit too big. So I went a smaller size and it just depends on what you like. But yeah, you want to make sure that you definitely get the right size with gloves. [01:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting though, isn't it? At BFUP last year, we had the gloves for sale and lots of people would come back from either, you know, [01:26:14] Speaker B: workshop when it was windy and apparently [01:26:18] Speaker A: you guys got gloves and their fingers would be blue. [01:26:20] Speaker B: You know, it was more the windshield than anything else. [01:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:26:26] Speaker B: I think they got people without gloves come back and they were just like, what have you got? [01:26:30] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that up in the alpine, especially like up in, even near bright, like Mount Buffalo. I've taken people up there that haven't been there. And on the ground it's, you know, like it could be like, you know, in winter or autumn, it could be, you know, 10 degrees or something like that. But as soon as you get up there, it's in the minuses and you don't know. You can't expect what. Yeah, you can't expect what it's going to be like or anticipate it until you're there. Some people are really shocked by the cold. Yeah. [01:27:02] Speaker B: Tell, tell me about your sort of. Anything you've learned about your layers and what you wear because so I, I snowboard a lot and have snowboarded in Japan and New Zealand and stuff like that. Yeah, Nothing deep, deep winter. But Japan's gotten pretty cold and I was shooting in Japan too. So snowboarding is one thing, but like laying in the snow for 45 minutes while other people snowboard, while you're taking photos, a different set of chill sets into your bones if you don't have the right gear on. [01:27:38] Speaker C: Right? [01:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, kind of thing. You know, it's like. So the, the most difficult thing with snowboarding was exactly what you talked about then is the difference between being warm, say laying in the snow, taking photos or sitting on a chairlift for a long, an exposed chairlift for a long amount of time in the wind. You need as as much warmth as possible and then the next minute you're hiking up, hiking up the side of a hill with a backpack on, carrying a snowboard and absolutely roasting way too hot. And the, there is one sure fire way. The, the best way to kind of try and thread that needle of both sides is unfortunately the most expensive gear, the most expensive outerwear, the most expensive layers are the best at providing warmth but also not making you hot and sweaty. Is that what you found? Have you had to buy expensive stuff that, to, to kind of get around that issue where you're like too cold, too hot, depending on what's happening or like what's what gear, jacket, Or a puffer or something like that. Is there anything where you're like, this thing is awesome? [01:28:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely an experimentation process and you can only experiment in the conditions. Like you can't know. [01:28:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:50] Speaker C: Like, especially when you're up in the snow, you can't know if that jacket's going to work because you can go, okay, that's going to protect me in terms of warmth and you're going to stay warm, but exactly right. Like a puffer jacket. If you're trying to hike with a camera bag, it's not ideal. So I guess that's another thing that's that I've learned over the years and experimenting with that and particularly when I started running workshops as well because my style of photography changed. So like when I was just shooting on my own and what I do now, I'll go in and I know exactly where I want to go. I'll get the shot and then I'll get out. So it's a lot of movement. It's not standing around. I'll get in, get the shot and move out. But with workshops I'm taking people and I'm just staying there and standing while they get the shot for all. So there was, there's a lot more of me just standing around and getting cold. So I kind of had to change up my clothing for that. But in terms of gear. Yeah, you, I think there's, there's more options compared to say like 10 years ago where there's more mid range stuff that's doing the job a lot better these days than having to buy real top tier stuff because the stuff is very expensive, the top level stuff. And I, I provide for my alpine workshops. I give them a list of recommended clothing and that sort of stuff. And it's different for me because I'm in it, you know, all, all kind of winter and I'm consistently doing it year on year. But for someone that's coming from a workshop, say from like Queensland, that's never been to the snow, it's probably not going to go back to the snow again. They're just coming for like a five day workshop. Yeah, they don't want to invest in the top tier stuff just for that. So. So yeah, I've had to look around and try and find other stuff that kind of does the job and there, there is other stuff that, that does it. So I've been using, so I've got like my gloves, the boots I use now I've gone blank. I'm trying to remember they're basically. [01:30:51] Speaker B: I was going to ask you about boots. Yeah. I was going to say, do you wear like hiking boots or snow boots? [01:30:58] Speaker C: Yeah, the actual snowboards. So like all the workers up at Hotham that work up there, they wear these sorels. Sorels. That's it. Yep. [01:31:05] Speaker B: Sorrels. [01:31:06] Speaker C: I just wear the sorrels. Yeah. Then they're not, they're not great for. If you want to go real far, like in terms of walking distance because they're big shoes. But I don't do that. I don't really go that far. If I do, I've got like. They're called snowshoes, but they're not shoes. They're like the, the old kind of tennis rackets on you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Snowshoeing. So I've got them. So. And then I can just strap them to my boots. But I could stand out there from the morning to the afternoon and my feet wouldn't change temperature. They're really good. So I use them. I got a pair of snow pants that basically just waterproofs. That's the other thing. You want warmth but you also need waterproofs as well. So. Yeah, I basically just use layering. I'll have you know, I don't feel the cold nearly as much as other people, so I'll just wear a T shirt underneath and then maybe like a, like a, a zip up jacket, like a fleece or something like that. And then I've got like a waterproof jacket that I can easily take on and off, which is really good for wind chill. So it just takes it out completely. And that's the other thing. Windshield can make a big difference. So I can be up in the snow and there's no wind whatsoever and I can be up there literally in a T shirt. [01:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:37] Speaker C: So it's surprising what the wind does. So if you can knock out that windshield, that makes a huge difference. And I've got. There's an Australian. I'll see if I can find it. There's an Australian group that does good gear that's kind of mid tier pricing. What are they called? Sorry. Oh, xtm. [01:33:12] Speaker A: Sorry. [01:33:13] Speaker B: I was, I was about to say. I know I don't know about the rest of the gear, but I know XTM do good cold copies of Sorel boots. So if, if people don't invest. Like sorrels are expensive. They're one of those things that. [01:33:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:24] Speaker B: Buy them once, have them for life probably. [01:33:26] Speaker C: Unless you're doing. Yeah, they are. [01:33:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Unless you're a mount Hotham lifty or something. You might have to replace them every few seasons. But if you're just going on snow like trips. [01:33:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:35] Speaker B: You could have sorrels forever. But XTMs are probably what, a third of the price or something and they, I'm sure they're not fine. Like they're. Yeah, they're very similar. [01:33:43] Speaker C: XTM's really good. Yeah. [01:33:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:45] Speaker C: Yep. They're like. I think he's a Melbourne guy and yeah, he does like really good quality ski gear. So I've got like a ski jacket which is a lightweight jacket and they actually have like good design jackets where it comes with like a zipper jacket underneath the vest. So you get like a two piece. So that's. And then you've got the jacket that goes over the top. But yeah, in terms of pricing, um, they're much, they're much more affordable. Um, compared to what's like the. Is it. I don't know how to Patagonia. [01:34:14] Speaker B: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. If you, if you go into one of those shops and have to buy a full set of kit to go on a snow. Yeah. You won't have change from. [01:34:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:34:26] Speaker B: Three or four grand. [01:34:28] Speaker C: No. It's crazy. Yeah. [01:34:29] Speaker B: So an arctic puffer jacket's probably 7 or 800 bucks. [01:34:33] Speaker A: Far out. [01:34:34] Speaker C: Yeah, they're crazy. Yeah. The first time I went looking for that stuff I was just like, whoa. I was so shocked when I saw the price tag. Yeah, very. [01:34:42] Speaker A: And it's a lot of money. [01:34:43] Speaker C: If you just made. [01:34:44] Speaker A: If you're seasonal about it, you know, you're only going up to the snow once or twice a year. It's a huge investment. [01:34:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:34:51] Speaker A: I remember when, when I first went to the snow with my, with my wife very long time ago. The kids were only little. They hated it because they didn't have much warmth. But we went to the Aldi, remember every year. I don't know if they still do it. Aldi used to do this big ski gear sale and everyone would queue up and it'd be like, it'd be like a Black Friday, you know, nightmare scene from, from a. From Walmart. That's just crazy. [01:35:14] Speaker B: People fighting, trying to find s. Yeah. Sizes that fit or whatever. Try these on. And the kids. I don't fit. And you're like, too bad. That's all there is, $50 snow pants or something. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:26] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think most people that I heard from that sort of stuff was actually, it was actually still did the job for like just a snow trip. Like if you're Just doing one. It definitely did the job. [01:35:37] Speaker A: It was a once off. It was tobogganing, and that was it. Back to the bus. [01:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:40] Speaker A: You know, Jeff, let's talk a little bit about your workshops. So, you know, it's. It's amazing that you had that. That life change in 2017. You discovered actually that you love getting out with the camera and learning more about photography and starting to build your. Yourself as a photographer. And I imagine sort of the basic, at least business principles behind that. Now you're at a place where you're running workshops and you're taking folks up into the high country and helping them master their craft. What was the. How long have you been doing the workshops and what kind of. What led you into that direction? [01:36:22] Speaker C: So I think this is. I think it's my fourth year, I think. And yeah, like up until maybe a year before I started doing it, I hadn't really considered it or like making money so much from it. A lot of the reason why, when I started to get back into photography was for the creative side. Yeah. And just having something else that allowed me to. Yeah, just express creatively and that sort of stuff. And then when I, in the initial stages started looking at that sort of stuff, I kind of felt like whether it was selling prints or running workshops, my full creative, I guess, license would be limited to what would sell, if that makes sense. I probably didn't word that properly, but, yeah, I guess I didn't want to have this pressure of having to produce things that were popular. So initially I tried to sell prints and it was just from, I guess, just putting it out there, not trying to make. Make a business or anything from it, but just putting it out there. But it was about. I still wanted to be able to produce what I wanted to rather than producing something that would sell. So originally I kind of didn't want to go down that path, but I think once I started posting more of the stuff that I was seeing up here and, you know, in the snow and even autumn's really nice around here, I had a couple of people reach out and ask if I ran workshops. I said, no, I don't. I hadn't really considered it. And that's pretty much just where kind of the idea came from. Just from other people asking, yeah, if. If I do it. So I think it was, yeah, that's [01:38:22] Speaker A: pretty sweet and awesome, isn't it, where you just have people actually coming to you, say, hey, workshops, you know. [01:38:29] Speaker C: Yeah, it wasn't a lot of people, but it was a couple that Just like plant, planted the seed. And yeah, so initially I just put together a rough workshop and just thought, I'll see how that goes. So I didn't really have, like a big plan of making something of it. And yeah, I just ran one over in Bright. I think it was during autumn. But I'd sell, like, my workshops. I sell them about a year in advance, so I prepare for next year ahead. And yeah, I put that out. And yes, I have the. The limit is I have four people on my workshops just because that's the amount of people I can fit in my car. So I keep it still, like trying to keep, like a small group environment. So I put that out and yeah, that just sold. So I filled it relatively quick and thought, oh, that's pretty good. And then I had someone else reach out straight after saying, oh, if you release any more, let me know. And I had a couple of people reach out after that and I was like, I had enough people reach out to decide to release another one. And then that one sold. And then it just kind of snowballed from there. I guess it was just from. Yeah, just putting it out if there was a bit of a demand. So, yeah, I think I ran like about maybe four workshops in the first year. [01:39:53] Speaker A: Yep. [01:39:54] Speaker C: And yeah, it's just kind of built up really, from there. There was no. [01:39:58] Speaker A: Justin, can we bring up. [01:39:59] Speaker C: Because I was still doing. [01:40:02] Speaker A: Sorry, Jeff. I was just going to ask Justin, just while we're talking about. To bring up the workshops page from your website while we're talking about them. Sorry I cut you off. [01:40:10] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's okay. Yeah, so I just. Because I was still doing financial planning work at the time, it wasn't something that I had. And I think that's where it kind of helped me. I didn't have. Have the pressure to actually make it work. It was more just like a side thing. And then it's eventually just transitioned out from me stepping away from, you know, financial planning completely. And now this is. This is what I do. So, yeah, and it's just kind of built up from there. And yeah, I primarily just focus on the high country. There's a reason for that. But I have got one where I'm going down to the Great Ocean Road. But it's mostly just because of my lifestyle. So I've got three young kids and it's just hard for me to really get out and get away and that sort of stuff. So I've just kept it around here. But there's. In terms of my creativity, there's so much here that has just kept me interested. Like, it's not like I'm just done with it. There's actually so much that each year I find new stuff. So. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of worked really well. Yeah, unintentionally. [01:41:22] Speaker A: And I think also the beauty of where you are and being a nature and landscape photographer, which I just tried to merge into the word lecher, where that came from. But as that sort of photographer, you know, there's also the seasonal changes that happen. You know, it's not like. It's not like the canvas is always the same. You're always starting from a very different point depending on the time of year you head out that door. And I think that's. I think that's one of the beauties of landscape photography is that you can see the same scene at four different times of the year and. And they're almost indis. Indistinguishable from one another because of those extreme seasonal contrasts. But yeah, 100 looking at. [01:42:02] Speaker C: Especially up here, not. Yeah, yeah, up here, the scenes is so, so vastly different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:42:11] Speaker A: So you've got. You've got a lot of alpine winter workshops. You've already got a bunch that are sold out and others that are only a couple of seats left. And then your alpine winter workshops are also sold out. Oh, I see. There's the otways one. You've got one spot left on your otways, but a bunch of other workshops coming. And then later in the year after beef up, we've got the intimate plan workshop. [01:42:36] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [01:42:37] Speaker A: And on that question, are you returning to beef up this year or you're not sure yet? [01:42:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I haven't heard from Matt or Nick, but I'm pretty sure, yeah, I will be. It's. It's been great joining the community. I got my beef up jacket last year, which is great. I told them that's what I originally started up for was just to get the jacket. So now I got the jacket. But. [01:43:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:03] Speaker C: No. How many have you been Community? [01:43:06] Speaker A: How many beef ups have you. [01:43:08] Speaker C: I think that was my third. [01:43:10] Speaker A: Okay. [01:43:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Y. Yeah, nice. And the first one, I just had no idea what to expect. Guessing you guys are probably the same. [01:43:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, 2024 was our first and we had no. [01:43:22] Speaker C: We. [01:43:23] Speaker A: We thought we knew what to expect. Expect, but we were completely blown away from it. And even when we returned last year and last year we went all in. We had a lucky strap stall, as many people in the. In the chat will know. Plus, we're running live Podcasts every morning from our Airbnb. Yeah, it was just. Even, even having had pre experience last year was just bananas compared to the year before. So I, I kind of wonder what, you know, what are they going to have to do? Shoot one another out of a cannon or something to talk top last year? [01:43:54] Speaker B: That's a good idea. [01:43:55] Speaker A: It is a good idea. I mean, they electrocuted each other last year, so, you know, who knows how far they're prepared to go. [01:44:02] Speaker C: Yeah, nothing's off the table with those guys. [01:44:04] Speaker A: No, not with those two. Definitely not. Definitely not. [01:44:07] Speaker C: But no, it. It really has. It really has been great joining it and particularly for me because I'm quite isolated, well, literally isolated where I am. So before that I joined Beef Op. I didn't really have any exposure to really any other photographers, like I, you know, maybe speak to them online. But joining BFOP and being able to actually interact with other photographers was just. Was just great. I originally just joined because that's when I started selling my workshop. So I thought it would be a good way to get a bit more exposure. But it's a lot more than that. Like, for me, I just really love going and having a weekend where you can. And you know, the whole community is pretty much just. Everyone just seems like they're all on the same page, both like instructors and the people that attend. So it's. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Matt, Nick, they do it so well. I don't know how Matt has the. The time. [01:45:02] Speaker A: I don't think he sleeps. I'm pretty sure he doesn't sleep. [01:45:05] Speaker B: He's a robot. [01:45:06] Speaker C: Yeah, but yeah, yeah, maybe. [01:45:09] Speaker A: Who knows? [01:45:10] Speaker C: GPT doesn't exist. [01:45:12] Speaker B: Matt. [01:45:12] Speaker A: GPT. That's good, Jay. [01:45:14] Speaker C: That's really good. He'll be wearing a T shirt saying that he will see. [01:45:18] Speaker B: Yeah, we should. Owner write that down. [01:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah, because we're looking at doing some, some new merch maybe for bfop 2026. [01:45:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Cool. [01:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah, we've got some zany ideas going, so stay tuned for that one, folks. If you're heading to bfop. Yeah, we'll have, hopefully have some new stuff for you. You'll never know. Let's. Let's talk gear. You mentioned earlier that, you know, you were using a point and shoot. You decided to step it up a bit. You found yourself for a Canon dslr. We all make mistakes, Jeff. But where are you now with gear? [01:45:48] Speaker C: What. [01:45:49] Speaker A: What are you shooting with these days? [01:45:51] Speaker C: Oh, you'll. You'll probably say that I've made a further. A worse mistake. [01:45:55] Speaker A: You didn't go to Nikon, did you? [01:45:57] Speaker C: Oh, that's the worst mistake. [01:46:01] Speaker A: What we. So tell us about your Sony experience. [01:46:07] Speaker C: So, one thing to get off the bat, I'm not a Sony fanboy. I am definitely a fanboy. [01:46:14] Speaker A: That's for us to judge. [01:46:16] Speaker C: Yeah, so I had. Yeah, I think I had. There was the 5D mark 3 or something and then. Yeah, and then I think once I wanted to move to a. A different camera that was going to just do a bit more for me. I was looking at mirrorless and at the time, that's when Sony was dominating the mirrorless market. You know how they got into it so early and they just dominated it and Canon and Nikon really just took their time to get into it so. [01:46:45] Speaker A: Well, I think they thought it was a passing phase, so, you know. [01:46:48] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. [01:46:52] Speaker B: Got caught. Got caught behind the eight ball, I think, a bit as well. Just with. Yeah, like I say, Sony was cranking and then Fujifilm was cranking and. And they were like, better get. Better get onto this. [01:47:03] Speaker C: Yeah. And I know they had a lot of people, like loyal customers that wanted them to probably move to that and they just held off for so long and I was, I was like that. I was like, yeah, I'd stick around for a Canon mirrorless, but it didn't happen. So I just went to Sony and yeah, I like the camera. You know, I'm kind of past, well past that stage of having to buy a gear just because it's gear and stuff like that. So I, I would move to something else, like. But you know, Sony does everything that I need it to. I'm invested in the system, so the lens and so forth, you know, it would be a nice thing to move to. Like, I'd happily move to Canon Nick on any of those. But you know, the cost of doing it and you know how much you lose moving that sort of stuff. Like it. The. It's a tool, it does the job, you know. My lens selection. Is it a beeping? I can hear that. [01:48:08] Speaker A: Sorry. [01:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Who's. Where is that coming from? Someone's house is on. [01:48:14] Speaker C: Everything's going wrong today. Yeah. [01:48:19] Speaker B: That's crazy. [01:48:19] Speaker C: Yeah. So it does the job, like. Yeah, it does the job for. For what. What I need it to. There's nothing that's really holding me back in terms of. I wish I had that or this would make my photography a lot easier or better and that sort of stuff. So there's no real strong need for me to move to another system. [01:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all still working. What. What body is it that you're using? [01:48:44] Speaker C: Oh, I can't hear you now. You're. [01:48:47] Speaker B: Oh, really? This is great. [01:48:49] Speaker C: Can you still hear me? [01:48:51] Speaker B: I can hear you. Yeah, I can hear you. And I don't think I'm muted. I'm pretty sure people can still hear me. Damn. [01:48:58] Speaker A: This is. [01:49:00] Speaker B: This is the most buggy thing that there is. Yeah. Let me just see what I can do here. We've got Greg back, at least. Sorry, guys, again. Yeah, we're. Oh, Greg, we just. We lost Jeff. Lost my audio. [01:49:14] Speaker C: This is. [01:49:16] Speaker B: This is one of the most professional podcasts we've ever ran, which is saying something. [01:49:20] Speaker C: All right, this happens when I join. It's just like I said, it just happens when I join podcasts, [01:49:27] Speaker B: so. Okay. Sorry, Jeff, what body. What Sony body are you shooting with at the moment? Which model? [01:49:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I've got the A7. R4. [01:49:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And. [01:49:38] Speaker C: And then I think they're up to the R5. [01:49:40] Speaker B: The 5? Yeah. And you can't see? [01:49:42] Speaker C: No, I've got the 4. No. Yeah, it's pretty much the same megapixel count. Y. You know, in terms of the body, the one thing I really do like about it, and this might be useful for other people because I'm not, like, spruking Sony the way that they'd probably like me to. But, yeah, having, like, 60 megapixels works really well for me. Like, I'll never, ever have a need to print that big, but it allows me to go out and shoot and know that I can crop in. So particularly with my, like, intimate scenes, I probably crop a good 90, 95% of my shots. Yeah, I usually crop them. So having that extra reach is probably something good to think about for people if they are considering, you know, what camera to buy next. For me, that makes a huge difference, being able to just, yeah, crop in and have that extra amount of megapixels. But, yeah, the camera. Camera does the job. I think the R5 is the same megapixel count. It's probably. Probably got a few extra bells and whistles, which I don't really need. But in terms of. [01:50:50] Speaker B: Sorry, it was like autofocus and video, maybe that sort of benefited the most from the upgrade grade, if I remember correctly. And it's like if you're shooting landscape photography, it wasn't a big, you know, a big improvement on what. What the V had to offer. [01:51:07] Speaker C: Yep. The lenses I use, so I've got a 16 to 35, a 24 to 105, and a 100 to 400. So that covers me from, you know, 16 to 4, 400. It's a. That range is just perfect. Or I don't use that range. My most used lens is probably the 24 to 105. I use that mostly. I rarely use my 16 to 35, but I still take it with me. I always just take it just in case I need it. But the 100 to 400 is really good for up here, for, like, zooming right in on mountain ranges and that sort of stuff. So. But yeah, those lenses do the job and. Yeah, yeah. So you don't get anything else? [01:51:59] Speaker B: No dedicated macro? You've never been tempted by a dedicated macro to get really intimate, or is that just a bit close for your style of. Of imagery? [01:52:08] Speaker C: No, yeah, sorry. So, yeah, I've got a 90 mil macro, but that's not in my bag all the time. I'll take it out when I use it. It's. Yeah, so I do have a 90 mil macro, which is really cool. I do love using it. But if I'm grabbing my bag and I'm going out on a shoot, it's usually those three lenses that come with me. Unless I know I'm gonna, you know, go out specifically for macro. [01:52:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'll just print. [01:52:36] Speaker A: And what are some of the other. What are some of the other sundry items that you, you, you routinely or drop into your bag every time you go out for a shoot? [01:52:50] Speaker B: You got us. [01:52:50] Speaker A: Jeff? [01:52:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Can you hear me? [01:52:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you hear what Greg said? [01:52:55] Speaker C: No, I can't hear Greg. [01:52:57] Speaker A: Oh, no. What have you got? [01:52:59] Speaker B: So, Greg. I'll translate. Greg just asked. This is bizarre. Greg just asked, are there any other things that you pop in your bag for every regular shoot? Like little bits and pieces, whether it's spare memory cards or, I don't know, rocket blower or anything like that? [01:53:15] Speaker A: Filters, all that sort of filters. [01:53:16] Speaker B: Tripod, that sort of stuff. [01:53:21] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah, I've always got, you know, a handful of cleaning cloths. I've got one of those rocket blowers as well. The only filter that I use is a cpl. I don't use any, like, graduated filters or anything like that. Yeah, I just use a cpl, but I don't even really use that a whole lot. Yeah, mainly apart from that, it's just making sure I've got the right, you know, clothing and stuff like that. Like, you know, my gloves are in there. I carry a tripod. I primarily shoot mostly on My tripod. I don't shoot a whole lot. Just handheld. Yeah. Spare batteries. I only have like my standard. Just one memory card. Yeah. And other than that. Yeah, I try and keep it as light as possible. Anything that kind of slows me down, I try and keep it out of my workflow. So I just try and keep things quite minimal. Yeah, yeah. Unless it's helping me or adding to what I need to, you know, to capture a scene. Yeah, I don't keep it with me. [01:54:34] Speaker B: What, what sort of bag are you putting it all in? [01:54:37] Speaker C: I've got a Shimoda bag, but yeah, I can't remember. I can let you know if you need to put it on, but yeah, I can't remember what the Shimod Shimoda bag is. [01:54:49] Speaker A: Do you know that the Bunnings sell Shimoda camera bags? What? Bunnings have this whole new. I don't know how. How new it is now. No, I'm serious. [01:55:00] Speaker C: They. [01:55:01] Speaker A: They have like a drop shipping thing now and they sell everything. Because I was looking online. [01:55:05] Speaker B: Only online. [01:55:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I was looking at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was looking at cheap pelican cases, like, you know, rip off. And Bunnings came up and then I went, oh. And I went, camera bag. And then it brought up all of these different brands of camera bag, including Shimoda. So, you know, it's one of those. Yeah, I doubt I would ever buy it from there because the customer service, like if you, if you had a specific problem and you wanted to call the company, you know, you can't really go to Bunnings and say, my camera bag does this. [01:55:34] Speaker B: I wouldn't. Yeah, I don't like these places that are just listing everything under the sun and drop shipping it. It's not. That's not my style. If anyone's still listening out there, it's because it's really disconcerting not having the chat. We don't. I don't know if we're just talking to the Void or not. I miss it. The chat's my safety blanket and I miss you guys. But if you are still listening, remind me on Monday night just say, just remind me about Greg's pelican case and I'll show you some of the product research we were helping him with. [01:56:07] Speaker A: That's an interesting word, helping. [01:56:11] Speaker B: So I've just been. Well, we've been. Oh, wow, look at this image. Yeah. Tell us about this, Jeff. [01:56:18] Speaker C: Yeah, so that they actually got me. I don't enter a whole lot of photography awards, but that actually got me Black and white. It won the black and white category in the Australian Geographic Awards back in. Oh, wow. [01:56:34] Speaker B: Maybe see why. [01:56:36] Speaker C: Yeah, so that, that was not too far from my house. That was during the. I think it was the nine. 19. 20. 1920 bushfires up here. [01:56:50] Speaker A: Okay. [01:56:51] Speaker C: And yeah, I was. I can't remember what I was doing. I think I was just going out because I could see that cloud coming up and I just thought, oh, maybe I could just go out and see if we could get some interesting kind of like documentary style shots. And that was in a town. So the fire was in the town for about 40 minutes away. [01:57:14] Speaker A: Oh, is that from a fire? [01:57:15] Speaker C: That was just five minutes down the road from my house where that tree is. So, yeah, I saw that smoke cloud just building and I just kind of just jumped over one of the farming fences and went out to kind of position the tree just below that smoke cloud. But yeah, yeah, it was a devastating time and I kind of felt weird about kind of photographing something so devastating and putting it out there as well. I kind of felt a bit strange about that. But yeah, it was the only one that I really showed just because I guess artistically I kind of liked how it kind of looked. But also documenting something as well in time, I don't do too much of that. But yeah, it was interesting watching that cloud as well just build up like that and come over that. That tree. [01:58:08] Speaker B: Yeah, the way that it's almost imitating the tree shape is. [01:58:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. [01:58:13] Speaker B: It's magic. [01:58:15] Speaker C: Yeah, very cool. Yeah, Yeah. [01:58:21] Speaker B: I love flicking through. Your image gallery is just. Yeah, very, very cool. This image gallery is just on Jeff's website, CreativeLight AU just under the gallery section you'll find it. And it's got a great mixture of, of I guess more traditional landscapes and then stuff like this. The intimate side of things. [01:58:41] Speaker A: Yep. [01:58:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:58:47] Speaker B: Wow. [01:58:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it was interesting when I came up here, trying to figure out, and that's probably a bit of a thing about this place and how it maybe developed my style unintentionally. Is that in the learning phase of photography, you're always mimicking what other people have produced. And you start out by going to like iconic places and shooting popular wellness subjects. And up here there's not a lot of that. Like it is an iconic region, but there's not a lot of iconic subjects to shoot. Apart from that one you get up on the screen there, which is Mount Feather Top and Hawthorn. So a lot of that my images came from me just trying to actually have to find my own kind of subject matter because there wasn't a lot to go to. Like a. You know, we don't really have waterfalls here, and a lot of photographers will go to that. You know, go down that path or shooting the coast and that sort of stuff and. But, yeah, so there wasn't a lot of that. So I kind of had to really find my own stuff to. To shoot. And what I struggle with most was just how vast and how big the landscape is up here and trying to make sense of it because it's. You know, especially when you start photography, you know, what you see with your eyes is a lot different to what you see through the lens or trying to make sense of a really nice landscape in a photo can be challenging. So. Yeah, going down that more intimate kind of side helped me make sense of the landscape, I guess. Yeah. [02:00:22] Speaker B: These just focus shots. [02:00:24] Speaker C: Specific things. Yeah, yeah. [02:00:27] Speaker B: Like this with the beautiful color and just an element of a tree. Just a. You know, it's not. It's not so close up that it's just a leaf, but it's. It's certainly not the full tree. And it's just that. That in between. [02:00:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:41] Speaker B: So interesting and striking and like this. Look at that. [02:00:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So the snow gums are a big thing that. They were kind of like my first kind of project that. A kind of personal project that I challenged myself with. They're kind of iconic to the. The high country. They grow in just like the alpine kind of areas. And yeah, they're very difficult. They can be very challenging to shoot because they're only found in very, like, densely, like, kind of busy, chaotic areas. Real dense bushland. And the colors actually change. A lot of people don't know that the colors are only like that for a specific season, so. So they don't look like that all year round. They're actually quite ugly looking. Like, most of the year, they're just kind of dull and just have like a real grayish kind of color. But, yeah, when they get wet and the bark starts to strip off during, like, the cooler months, you can get these really amazing kind of streaks of color through them. [02:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:01:43] Speaker C: And the way that they've kind of been shaped through. Through the years, every single tree looks different and has its own kind of character to it as well. Yeah. [02:01:56] Speaker B: In the way that they twist and bend and. [02:01:58] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Yep. It's. Yeah. [02:02:02] Speaker B: Sort of an endless. I don't. I don't even know where you start. That's what's crazy. It's like there's so much going on it's like, where do you start when you try and find a composition in. In this sort of scene? [02:02:13] Speaker C: That's right. Yeah. And that's. That's the challenges I had. And it was trying to figure out how do you actually. Actually make sense of the chaos. So a lot of that is what I teach on the workshops, is trying to make sense of. Of chaotic environments and trying to find a scene within, you know, something that's, you know, to the eye, very chaotic. But how do you kind of make something or. Or find subject matter that can create an interesting composition? Yeah, it is a challenge. It's not easy, especially going from just shooting big vistas where your scene is just there, where you can see it as soon as you rock up to very much is about slowing down and trying to, you know, just find things that jump out at you or find things that are interesting to you, that grab your attention. And then trying to compose that is. It's a process, but I've found it quite rewarding and keeps me inspired and motivated to go out and find. Find more. [02:03:12] Speaker B: Have you got a favorite photograph? [02:03:20] Speaker C: Not really. I think they just change each year. Excuse me. Because I spend most of my photography time out during autumn and winter. And each year I think when I find something new, that becomes my new favorite or something. Something like that. But yeah, if I had to pick something, it would probably be one of my snow gum images. I do love the uniqueness of the snow gums, whether it's in the snow or during autumn or something like that. I like the cattleman's huts as well. That one there. The cattlemen's huts. I love shooting the. Those huts as well. Yeah. I probably don't have a favorite photograph. I've probably just got a collection of them. Yeah. [02:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And I know what you mean where you say it's. And it kind of changes through time as well, depending on what you've created recently. Or sometimes you look back and think, wow, actually, that one. That one never. Never really stood out, but now it does for some reason. [02:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:04:22] Speaker B: Yeah, there's. [02:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:23] Speaker C: And I think it's maybe some of them that stand the test of time as well, where you can just keep looking back and going, even though you're producing well, hopefully each year your work's getting better and better. Better you can look back at an image and go, well, I still really love that. I wouldn't probably change anything about it. Maybe the editing. But editing can be done, but compositionally, I think I nailed that shot kind of thing. So I think that's a good way to learn as well, is reflecting on your work and going back and looking at it and seeing, you know, what worked and what didn't. [02:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:55] Speaker C: Particularly because I shoot seasonally, so each year I can look back and go, okay, what am I going to do this year? And I kind of sometimes set myself little kind of personal projects as well, just to kind of go, okay, this year I'm going to go out and just focus on real tight, intimate shots of leaves or something like that in the. In the landscape. But yeah, it's. I think you've got to find ways to keep yourself motivated to keep going out to the landscape, whether that's creating personal projects or whatever it is, changing things up and going to different locations, just keeping yourself inspired. [02:05:31] Speaker B: It's funny you say that about looking back, you know. So Jim and I ran a wedding photography business together, shot together a lot for about 10 years. And there were times like, we would get better and better. We'd always be pushing each other, almost competing to get better at just whatever or who got the best shots. If we shot a wedding together, there would always be a competition of, like, who. Who got better images. But there was a point in time where we. We looked back on our work from, say, five years before and we were like, did we used to be better? Because these are good, you know, like. Like we looked back, you know, with. With a bit of time, and then you look back and you're like, damn, these. Are we making stuff as good as this anymore? Because these are great. You know, there was almost enough separation and, and to forget about them when you looked back and you're like. It was almost like someone else had taken them. And we're like, damn, these are good photos. Yeah, we even were even those photographers anymore. It was. Yeah, it was kind of weird. [02:06:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting the kind of, like, things that you go through looking at your photography, and there's so many things that you go through that, like, other, you know, areas of, you know, I guess it's probably all tied into being a creative and stuff like that. So whether it's painting or whatever. But yeah, it's easy to go back and look at things and go, you know, what have I done right there? Or that was really good. Or. Yeah, I think it's just a part of the journey, really. And becoming better at what you're doing. [02:07:01] Speaker A: Indeed. [02:07:05] Speaker B: Can you. Jeff, can you hear Greg now? Is he back for you? [02:07:08] Speaker A: Can you hear me? Can you hear me? [02:07:09] Speaker C: No, no. [02:07:10] Speaker B: Oh, that's so bizarre. [02:07:12] Speaker A: You're gonna have to do the. You're gonna have to do the farewell, Justin. [02:07:16] Speaker B: I'll have to do the farewell. Otherwise Jeff will be like, hang on, is the show still going or what's happening? Well, before. Before we go though, what's. What's coming up, Jeff, other than all the workshops you've got going on this year and potentially beef up, depending on Matt, Nick, what. Have you got any projects in the. In the works that you're kind of playing with or. Yeah. What's going on with you in the year coming up? [02:07:40] Speaker C: Yes. So my workshops are kicking off soon. Like, my first one is, I think mid April, but other than that, it's probably. I want to put a bit more time into YouTube this year and just creating a bit more content and just. I just want to try and stay consistent with it more than anything. Yeah, last year I had a good role and then I just lost the momentum and I really enjoyed it. Creating the videos, but also being able to show a lot more of what I do than. Rather than just posting on. On Instagram. So I kind of want to keep that up and I think just staying on track with consistency is probably the main thing that I want to focus on. But, yeah, other than that, no, it's just workshops and the kids take up a lot of my time. So, yeah, there's not a lot of other time that kind of stuff seeps in. So it's. Yeah, it's just family and. And workshops. I guess so. But, yeah, I think once the season kind of rolls around, like autumn's getting closer and with winter as well, each year I try and think about something like not just creating the same content or the same images. I guess because I'm shooting the same area each year, I try to really focus on trying to create new stuff that I haven't done before, just pushing myself to. To do something else. So, yeah, especially in winter this year I'm keen to get out because I've explored a lot of the Alpine region, which is quite easy. Like, walk. Walking distance from the road. I don't have to go too far to really find amazing shots. But now I've got some snowshoes. I'm keen to go further out and. And find a whole lot more different scenes as well this year. So I'm keen to get the snowshoes on, go exploring. Oh, that's awesome. [02:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that'll be an adventure. You'll definitely have to get a bit of footage of that so we can check it out on YouTube. Snowshoeing around in the, in the high country during winter. Be unreal. [02:09:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:09:49] Speaker C: Falling over and. Yeah, like a turtle. Yeah. Help. [02:09:57] Speaker B: That's awesome. All right, I think we should probably, probably call. It's been over two hours. We've. We've stolen a lot enough of your time today, Jeff, but thank you. Thanks for joining us. [02:10:09] Speaker C: Yeah, that's been great. Yeah, yeah, I love what you guys are doing. It's. Yeah, you're doing a great thing for the, the community. And yeah, I didn't really know. Know about you guys until bfop, so I think there's a lot of people that are coming to befop that you've slotted in really well. But yeah, I love the content. Before we came on, I was saying to Greg, I wish I had more time to watch more of the shows. Yeah, it's just find the time. But yeah, I'm interested in watching. I'm trying to watch a few more, but yeah, it's great thing for, for the community. [02:10:41] Speaker A: Thanks. [02:10:42] Speaker B: Thanks. Well, you can always track our episodes down after the fact on Spotify or Apple podcasts and just throw them in as audio when you're driving around or wandering around or, or whatever. So. So that goes for you guys if you're listening. If you can't keep up with the live shows on YouTube. Yeah, you can always just listen back later on on audio or if you get YouTube Premium, which is what I pay for, you get no ads ever on YouTube, which is amazing. And you can also download and listen to episodes just like they're a podcast but on YouTube, which I find way easier. I use it for all my podcasts now. But what else was I going to say? Something, something about befop? No. YouTube? No. Oh, I just. I love that. The story about your moving and, and minimalism sparking a move and stuff like that. That was very, very interesting. So thank you. Yeah, I do appreciate it. [02:11:33] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I was glad you got something. [02:11:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that was. It was very interesting to hear. It's one of those things that, yeah, we all fantasize about just sort of picking up and changing a life and doing something completely different. It's really interesting to, to hear the story of someone that's actually done it and, and then turned it into an entirely new career and passion and hobby and everything. So that's. [02:11:53] Speaker C: Yeah, that's pretty special. Hats off for sure. Yeah. Oh, glad I was able to share it with everyone. [02:11:58] Speaker B: Thank you. Now, this is the part of the show where we normally roll some music and read out all of the comments in the live chat but because that didn't work I guess I'll just roll the music and and say see you later to everyone. Hopefully they could hear Greg even though Jeff could. Who knows. You'll have to tell us in the comments. Could you hear Greg at the end of the show Say something Greg for the people that that may hear you. [02:12:25] Speaker A: Can you hear me [02:12:27] Speaker B: say a code word? [02:12:29] Speaker C: People could just guess what I say. [02:12:32] Speaker A: Jim's AI service comment below. [02:12:34] Speaker B: If you heard what Greg said tell us what it was and then we'll know. All right thanks Jeff. Thanks Greg. Thanks everyone that was listening and stuck with us. Even know that our tech is not playing ball today and we'll catch you on Monday night show with special guest co host Aidan Aiden and Aiden Williams and next week for another great interview whose name eludes me and other than that onwards have a great day. [02:13:05] Speaker A: See you guys. Be safe.