Michael Jalaru Torres | Photography, Culture & Country (EP184)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Camera Life podcast, everybody. It is the Thursday 21st May, and we are coming to you live from. I'm in Melbourne, Australia and our guest is in Broome, in WA I'm in Victoria, but we are joined today by an amazing guest. We have award winning fine art photographer and poet from Broome in Western Australia, Michael Jelleri Torres. How are you, Michael? [00:00:50] Speaker A: Yeah, good. Greg, thanks for coming on the show. [00:00:53] Speaker B: No problem. It's our pleasure. Thanks for agreeing. Usually we have to sort of, you know, stalk people and abduct them to get them on the show, but you were very willing, so I really appreciate that. I really appreciate it. Before we, before we say hello to the folks that are watching at home at the moment or the cheeky ones that are watching from the bathroom at work, let's, let's run with a little question to get the, to get the conversation started. Given your experience as a photographer and a big part of what you do is photographing culturally significant events, how important do you think is that sort of documentation of culture for future generations to understand where we were at today? [00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess, you know, being indigenous and I guess the history of, you know, a lot of the indigenous aspect of Australia has been through a wide lens and we've always been a subject and not the capturer or the photographer. So nowadays, I mean, not saying that white people or non indigenous people can take or can't take photos of, you know, indigenous events and culture, it's just more has to be a balance or even, you know, skewing to the more we need our people to capture the events because, you know, it. Not only is it more in a more positive light because we know what we're capturing and the people feel more comfortable knowing that a, you know, Aboriginal photographer is capturing their event or capturing themselves. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker A: It also inspires the next generation to pick up a camera because for them, it allows them to see that, you know, they can be part of that as well, you know, and, and it's getting away from always been the subject, you know. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Yep. [00:02:42] Speaker A: And just giving that power back to, you know, our people. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Yep. No, I think that's. Yeah, that's amazing. There's an artist who my partner and I follow and I can't, off the top of my head, can't think of his name. And what you were just saying about the white lens reminded me of this first nations artist who would create artworks using, you know, like Australiana souvenirs that used to have images of indigenous people and indigenous art on Ashtrays and, and, you know, tea towels and oven mitts and things like that. And it was his work. Sort of comments on how first nations art was being used for dirty jobs. You know, an ashtray and a dish rag and those sorts of things. So that whole white lens aspect that you spoke of, is that also what led you to found Black Lens? Can you tell us a little bit about what's involved with black Lens? [00:03:43] Speaker A: I mean, that's a part of it. Firstly, I'll just shout out, that's probably Tony Albert. You're talking of the artist, the Australian stuff. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [00:03:53] Speaker A: From Queensland. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, going back to Black Lens, you know, it was just before COVID it was pre covered and I just moved to Melbourne from Broome, spent a few years there during COVID And I was surprised coming from Broome to Melbourne that, you know, a major city like that there wasn't more black photographers. [00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Around. And just because I would be shooting the events and stuff and just, you know, walking around and there was a lack of that presence. And so that led me on a journey of surely there's more black photographers out there. So scout, the Internet, the socials. And a lot of them found me as well. And we started just doing, you know, chats, one on one chats. And then I realized it was quite tiring saying the same thing 20, 30 times and single chats. So that I want the best way is probably make a collective and allow us to, you know, put all our voices together, make a community and then see what we can do together to make the presence of black photographers more visible in mainstream media. And so at that time, you know, Instagram was probably the best way. And you know, we had a couple of amazing photographers on board, Bobby Lockyer, Tread White and a few others, Marley Morgan, who are very vocal on. Yeah, making a change, making a difference. Yeah. And with me making a bit more networking in context, I just started becoming, you know, being more vocal as well, kind of more behind the scenes, trying to make opportunities and create pathways and then feeding that information back to our group to say, look, this is if you want to do this, you have to do this, this and that, you know. And so a lot of them, you know, took it on board and you know, some of us started from. Well, not me personally, but some of them really started in that initial stages as emerging photographers who now have shot for national campaigns or New York Times and y. Y. So they've all gone. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Difference. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's making a difference personally because on a personal level, where they're getting the information and the knowledge of how to be more successful. But then also, you know, these pathways are coming through because the Black Lens website has a directory. So, you know, one of the, the qualms of, of it all is, you know, mainstream says, I don't know any black photographers, you know. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:43] Speaker A: So they always then choose a non indigenous photographer. So my point. Well, there's a directory now. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker A: You know, yeah, we've got. Not everyone, but most people are on it and you can see where they are in their regions and states. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:59] Speaker A: And yeah, so people can chat to them directly to book them for a job or buy a print or whatever. So it's allowing people to go to one place to find a black photographer and hopefully learn a bit more. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Is it something that you've seen other indigenous communities worldwide identify that there wasn't, obviously there wasn't enough representation of, of indigenous people in creative, in this sort of creative space of photography. Do you think that it's a global challenge? [00:07:31] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. But then, you know, globally, each group kind of does it different. Yeah, I know, you know, some camera companies do really, you know, embrace that and have, you know, indigenous photographers as ambassadors and stuff and groups. Australia, not so much. It's quite, still quite colonial. [00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah. We're not great at change, are we? [00:07:59] Speaker A: Nah. And because, you know, the camera companies and, and mainstream do reach out to us when it's convenient to them. When NAIDOC week's coming around and suddenly, right, there's opportunities, but for the rest of the year it's quite bare and. Okay, so, you know, not, not letting that to, you know, to stop us in any way. But of course, I think for us it's more to be individually successful as a group, you know, because my, my viewpoint for them is don't rely too much on the group to be successful for yourself. You have to learn what you need and then you go off and be successful. But you have to share that knowledge and opportunities to others, you know, who are coming up. So it's like a circular leadership, you know, role trying to get away from the triangle model where, you know, everyone's asking me and, you know, relying on me in a way where, you know, I want more leaders to, to step up because, yeah, you know, there's things I want to do that, you know, I'll just, then I'll let the younger crew. Yeah. Take over and take it beyond where I want to do. [00:09:14] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's amazing and it's inspirational. You know, when we hear of folks who support up and coming photographers. I think that's, that's really vital. We met a couple of young photographers at BFOP last year, Matt Garberg, who we've since on the. Had on the podcast, you know, and they, they have, they have a strong voice and they have amazing art, amazing eye for photography. And you know, obviously like you've discovered the more you support those coming up, the better off the community becomes overall. At least that's, that's kind of my philosophy on it. Before we move on with any more questions, Michael, would you mind if I just say g' day to the chat and we'll see who's. Who's watching. First of all, we have Philip Johnson from the Blue Mountains. G', day, Philip. Usually always here first. Great to see you. Dennis Smith from School of Light. G', Day, Dan. Haven't heard from you for a bit. You've been pretty busy. Dennis says how luxurious to be around the studio today for this morning Legends. Great to have you on board, mate. Rodney Nicholson. Morning snappers. And Dennis, again, just picking up what you said earlier about inspires the next generation. Powerful, right there. It is, it is. And I think, you know, we always have this. I really dislike gatekeeping in a creative process. It's always bothered me that, you know, some people seem to approach any art form but, but also photography as kind of, you know, you've got to keep all your trade secrets close to your chest. And I think, you know, people like Dennis and Rodney who have taught other people how to, how to be photographers, you know, Dennis is a workshop instructor at BFOP and everything he does, all of his creative processes go onto his website and his YouTube channel. You know, he teaches everyone what he does. There's no gatekeeping involved. And I think that's our responsibility to the next generation of creatives is to keep that open for them, not make them feel like it's a slog that they. To make it to get a foot in the door, that we have to make it so challenging when we don't, [00:11:23] Speaker A: you know, [00:11:26] Speaker B: I took myself off track then. Let's. Michael, let's roll back the clock a little bit. Growing up, what were the inspirations behind you becoming a creative person? You know, was your family, were you from a creative family? Was there something that, you know, turned on that spark for photography? Let us know what the early days were like. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, my family, you know, most of my family are quite creative and you know, I'm old enough to grow up in the Kodak moment generation Where. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:01] Speaker A: And I was lucky enough where, you know, my father would, you know, saw value in cameras and, you know, he'd make sure we'd have a camera when we go out camping or going anywhere really. So I grew up and as well as my, you know, grandparents as well. So I grew up with a box or photo albums just like, you know, a lot of people. But that kind of stuck with me of always having photos around. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker A: And as I grew up, you know, pre digital, you know, I'll move to the city and then I'd have the, you know, little point and shoot cameras. Film cameras. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:41] Speaker A: So, you know, living on a student budget, I would still do a roll of film a week at least or a fortnight, you know, just taking photos of friends and doing whatever. Pretty much social media type images before social media, you know. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:58] Speaker A: You know, having fun, partying, people, meeting new people, taking photos of all that stuff. And then when digital came around, [00:13:09] Speaker B: you [00:13:09] Speaker A: know, with like, with all of us, it was just too expensive. And film shooting on film and broom was getting more expensive and getting film developed was getting harder and harder. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:21] Speaker A: So I just took a break from photography probably about 10 years, I think. Yeah. And got into more video, radio and television. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Spent, yeah, 15 years in radio and television, camera operating, editing, pretty much everything you can imagine. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:43] Speaker A: And then, yeah, Canon brought out the 7D and I thought, all right, that's the camera I'm going to get to get back into photography. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:53] Speaker A: Bought the, bought the 7D just with a kit lens and stayed in a box for about six months because I had no motivation to take a photo because I didn't know what to take a photo of. I've been out of photography for so long, I didn't know what to shoot. So when I finally got the courage, I just did everything, what everyone does. Did landscape, try to take photos of people. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Yep. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Did the one wedding that pretty much almost breaks you. [00:14:25] Speaker B: We've all been there. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah. We've done it all. You know what I mean? And y. And to be honest, learning more about lenses, so just saved up just getting different lenses and, you know, quality lenses. Yeah. And realizing that I. I did have a knack for capturing people. I had no patience for landscape and events like weddings and stuff was a bit too stressful. [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, when you have to find your happy place in the middle sometimes between, you know, the hugely popular genres. You know, I suck at landscapes. I don't. And Justin has talked about this on the show before. Where, you know, he's looking at the landscape and he just. We don't see it because that's not what we are used to shooting. It's not really our vibe. I'm the same with you. I've shot a few weddings, but mostly for friends or friends of friends. But other than that. Yeah, just needed to avoid it at all cost. It just, it just felt too much. But yeah. Finding your happy place in the middle. I'm curious to know when you did, when you were working in film and television and radio, were there elements of that, those roles that informed or first of all inspired you to get that 7D but also then, you know, informed how you approach photography moving forward. What were the takeaways from those years in media? [00:15:52] Speaker A: Probably the most important that I did. Sorry, I'm just trying to remember. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:16:02] Speaker A: It was just trying to remember the era. You know, this is. You're talking about 90s where everything was very still, that old flash. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Everything in focus, kind of style and yeah. Center composition type thing. And when I went to shooting for film and cinema, it was more, you know, rule of thirds and you know, a bit more natural light and. Yeah. [00:16:37] Speaker B: So artistic approach to it. [00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah. It was more storytelling, I would say, opposed to just capturing the moment. What can you do to tell a story in a frame? Yeah. And at the same time just thinking back where. Yeah. Because everyone was coming from film, so everything was, you know, bold, bright, everything's in focus type thing, you know. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:03] Speaker A: And then as people did realize, you know, you can shoot with a faster lens and stuff and get more bokeh and that kind of cinema feel, that's what kind of got that hunger to shoot again. [00:17:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Because I just didn't like the, you know, the headlight, you know, deer and headlight look, you know, the, that 80s 90s style, that point and shoot flash style. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel that we go back to that a little bit. At least it is going back. [00:17:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it is going back. You know, everything cycles. So yeah, I, I got back in, I said, all right, I could probably enjoy shooting stills with what I've learned from cinematography, you know, y and even news media coverage. So, yeah, it was a nice segue back into photography. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:55] Speaker A: But when I did go back into photography and found out what I didn't like, I realized I really love to do fine art style shooting, you know. Yeah. It is the subject. Strip away all the noise, you know, and just shoot that. So when I did get into photography properly, it became more fine art. But I'll Try everything else just to hone the skills, see what worked, what didn't. And yeah, it allowed me to really focus and I would. I would always have sketchbooks or notebooks and I would sketch out my ideas, make lighting plans and stuff. Yeah. I still have them all now. [00:18:36] Speaker B: You still use a notebook these days when you. When you're planning a project. Yeah, I'm the same. I always carry one. [00:18:40] Speaker A: I. I map it all out so that I make all the adjustments and stuff before I even press the camera shutter button because. And that can take weeks to months. And I'm finally get it right, then I've got the person involved. Just really quick one. It makes me look like I know what I'm doing and, you know, it allows the person to. To come in and, you know, get what's needed. That's done. Yeah. And go on. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Understand the storytelling element of that image you're trying to capture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Because, you know, it could be an hour session, but we'll probably talk for 40 minutes. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:18] Speaker A: And the actual shooting will take less than five, maybe 10 minutes. Yeah. Where if you don't have a plan, you'd be there for an hour, talk for probably five minutes and try and shoot everything over 40, 50 minutes. So. Yeah. You know, which then obviously everyone gets tired. So learning to do the other way, make all the plans before that and know the subject and everything and allows me just to be more efficient and. Yeah. And to be honest, talking to the subject and getting to know them a bit more, getting them to relax to. To know what we're trying to do and trying to capture. I want more time to do that opposed to fiddling around with lighting setups and stuff like that. Yeah. [00:20:04] Speaker B: And there's a lot to be said for disarming your subject through natural conversation, you know, just through talking about whatever it is that you're doing, you know, what. What you're trying to portray, but also hearing from them, you know, I think that's really critical. Were you, when you were shooting film back in the day, did you study film at, you know, at school or did you do it yourself from home? [00:20:31] Speaker A: I. I did one course at tafe, which was just, you know, a couple of weeks, and that was just black and white shooting on black and white film and just developing it. That's pretty much it. Yeah. Not a lot of places up in Broom to learn about photography. Yeah. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:52] Speaker A: And, well, we didn't even have a dark room up here. It's just all. Send all your roles to the chemist. Yeah. And get it all done, you know, that kind of style. So that was. It was just where I was, was very limiting to learn it and. Yeah. Which was, you know, one of the reasons why, you know, you know, going back to black lens is a lot of, you know, myself and a lot of people who are in these regional places, you don't have the opportunity to learn about photography. You know, there's no cameras to store. There's no black, dark room, you know. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:26] Speaker A: So no one really got into it unless you get those little disposable film cameras. But, yep, you don't really learn anything then, you know, so on using them. So once digital happened and camera phones, that's when a lot more of, you know, indigenous people get into photography, you know, became more mainstream and widespread. Yeah. [00:21:51] Speaker B: Do you think that, you know, we live in a world now with social media where people can take a photo and instantly share it to the world, and that's a different type of, you know, instant gratification, both for the photographer and for the viewers. Do you think that some of that magic is lost that we used to experience in film days, like you? I grew up in the burbs here in Melbourne, and my nan was into photography and she kind of got me into it in the early days. And I still remember those little. I think it was the 110 Hanimax. Hanimax, those little very thin flat cameras that had the little cartridge cassette film. She got me one of those. I can't remember what model it was. I can't even remember if the brand is right. But there was that real. That wonder and whimsy of you didn't know what was on the film and you wouldn't know for a week. You know, we'd go up to Kmart near their house and drop off the film and. And then you'd get a phone call, you know, a week later, saying, on your home phone, saying that, you know, your film was ready to come and get it and that that was when you got to then enjoy the gratification of what you'd shot. But you had time to anticipate it, to think about it, you know. Do you think that we're missing that. That magic from the film days? [00:23:05] Speaker A: Definitely. You know, companies and. And that are trying to bring the film feeling, but when it's instant, you don't really learn. I mean, you know, back in the day, when you spend, you know, your money for 24 brains and you only get one out of 24 next time, you learn to do the bloody Settings properly, you know, and though you learn a lot quicker because, you know, you're spending money on it. Yeah, But I mean, you know, I was actually talking to Warwick about this a couple of years ago that, you know, there needs to be an app where it locks off, where, you know, you take a, you know, you got your, your film stock and you've got 24 frames on the camera. [00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Then you, you know, locks it onto the SD card, then you put it in your computer and then, you know, send it, you know, does this little magic. Then you've got to wait 24 hours or two hours, you know, then you see the photos. [00:24:13] Speaker B: So there's a couple of different. Do that. Yeah. So like, Sorry, I cut you off. I get it. Yeah. Locking, locking down access to those images. So when Fujifilm released the, I think they did it last year, the X half that little half frame digital camera, despite what I think about it, I did like the idea that you then needed to use. You couldn't see the images. There was no, there was no real display screen and you could lock it in, like whether it was a 24, 36, you know, roll of digital film and the only. And then you could only see it once you'd taken all 24 or 36 shots. So you can't go in and peek at your images until that fake role is filled. And then you have to use the phone app to develop and process your images and you get a contact sheet and all that sort of stuff. And I thought that was a really interesting take on, you know, using digital technology to replicate the film days, you know, because there's a lot of, especially for Fujifilm, you know, there's a lot of love still for their Instax. Their Instax series is, is. It's just booming. You know, they're building more factories in Japan to make the cameras and the film. It's doing so well. And it's that whole instant, you know, bright flash, huge dark shadows in the background kind of thing that is really popular at the moment. And I'm pretty sure we saw because every Monday night we do a podcast where we read the news local, you know, the recent camera and film camera technology news. And I'm fairly sure someone had developed a camera that you couldn't access. Yeah. For like a period of time, like I think days. And it sort of added that, that, that delay. I think for me the importance of, or the takeaway from the film days was that you're waiting, you're taking the shots and waiting and then Going and picking them up and discovering standing there at the service counter at Kmart what you'd actually taken. That's almost part of the story. You know, back back in those days. It was part of that process and part of that photographer's experience of, you know, I finally finished my role and then I went off and had it processed and I had to wait a week and I didn't know what was going to work. And you know, all of those sorts of things are still part of that journey. But I feel that we've lost that, you know, in today's age with socials, I mean there's lots of positives and benefits of social media for photographers, that's for sure, but it can be a little heartbreaking. When you take a photo, you instantly share it and the algorithm doesn't give it to anyone. No one ever sees your work. You know, that's the other side of it that I kind of dislike. So mostly self taught. As a photographer, how did you find that transition? You know, you shot film in the early days, you then worked in radio and TV and film and then you went and picked up a Canon dslr. What was that transition into digital technology like for you? Do you remember what it was like first trying to work out that camera? [00:27:21] Speaker A: Well, luckily I had, you know, knowledge from the video cameras using, you know, in the film television era. So. Yeah, because went from beta cam to digibita. So it was, for me it was like I saw the, the holy land of digital or where it's going. Yeah. And I was just waiting for the, you know, photography world to catch up on it because it was a bit slow. So I was looking forward to it and you know, knowing that the, the workflow was going to be easier and what you could do, you know, in post with editing. So I was, I was quite, yeah, I was really gunning for it. I was. But obviously, you know, the technology and it was more, to be honest, it was more, you know, the, the photo editing software wasn't up to speed back then, you know. [00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:20] Speaker A: Because you know, having to bring up your, all your photos and Photoshop was a nightmare. You'd have all these dodgy photo catalog software like this wasn't working that well. You know, Apple Photos was terrible. Microsoft Photo Album was terrible. Yeah. And when Lightroom came out I was like, oh, about time. But obviously there's a lot of issues with Lightroom as well. Yeah, Photo Mechanic is great but this, I wish, you know, they had some better preset stuff that you can do. Quick edits batch edits on it instead of having to use Photoshop. I think on the software side of photo digital photography, there's still room to improve. Absolutely. [00:29:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:11] Speaker A: And because it's, it's still locking you to a computer. I mean at the moment I do a lot of events, I shoot and then I use Lightroom Mobile on the phone to just dump the photos and center directly to my client. Yep. If, if the camera companies had their own, you know, own better way of, of shooting and, and selecting on camera and just sending it off because each, each company, each camera company does it differently. Like I love the rating button on Canon, the hard button. It's just the best thing ever. Yeah, the, the Fuji one is a nightmare but you got to go menu and then through it all. So having a hard button is great. So yeah, oh there's, there's room to, to improve, you know, through hardware and software. I just, the next generation, you know, picking up a camera, taking a photo and sending it's going to be so much easier in 10 years is, you know, yeah, they, they're going to look at us with SD cards and go what the hell was that? Because it's probably all going to be all on board data. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Cloud upload instantly, all that sort of stuff. Is it Hasselblad or Leica? Don't some of the Leica Digitals have built in memory? It's not a lot, but I think there is some in, I can't remember the brand but there, there is a series of cameras out there where they, they have internal memory and you can add, you know, SD cards and things like that obviously. And I often wonder whether, you know, we'll move away from using computers to edit photos that either. Fingers crossed this doesn't happen. AI will be built into the cameras and you can select a look and a style and it will just do it for you. Or there's better in camera editing opportunities. You know, we're both Fuji shooters and every now and then I'll, I usually wait until I get home and you know, plug in the SD card for my shoots. But every now and then when I find something special or if I'm traveling and I particularly like a shot, I'll use the in camera RAW converter to turn it into a jpeg. And like you, I see a lot of opportunity for editing software to, to do better and not maybe, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I use some AI for like Denoise and stuff but that's about it. But I can see more and more AI Functionality seeping into Lightroom and Photoshop and all the other applications. Where do you stand on the use of AI in photography? [00:31:53] Speaker A: It's a great tool. I mean I use AI now to help selections. [00:31:58] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Get rid of all the, the blinks and the, all the, and stack all the ones that, you know, similar. So helping to select work and you know, write them and culling Great tool like saves you hours on, you know, if there was a way to do that in camera, God, you'll have no battery left. But. Yeah, yeah, but I, I think AI is, should always be seen as a tool and you still got to be creative, you know, it's just a tool. But even if people go, oh, you know, you can take a photo with AI or create a photo, well, you got to have the right prompt as well. So yeah, there's skill to that as well. But people, this is my view on AI and especially within, in the creative industry, like it's going to be easy for anyone to create anything but then people will still want something that's made by a human or hand drawn or something. So it'll cycle back around where an AI image will be a lot cheaper but people will want something more custom by a human and more authentic. It'll be, be more authentic, more expensive, but that's value to you, you know, and people will pay that, you know, because they know they can get something AI cheap where they want a person to take a photo of them and have that conversation and all that stuff. People will want that again and they'll be happy to pay for that, you know. Yeah. So you just got to write it out, you know, there's, there's fear at the beginning or you know, whenever technology comes in. The same thing with digital cameras, you know, there's a huge fear of that. But yeah, you've just got to ride out the wave and you've got to be prepared and use AI as a tool to help you be more efficient, I guess. And because no one wants to, you know, if it saves you four hours a day behind a computer. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:59] Speaker A: You know, then you can be in that four hours. You, you probably one hour, you got three hours. Just be, you know, enjoy life or shoot more, you know. Yeah, yeah, you just got to use it as a right tool at the right opportunity, right moment and then yeah, it's, I don't know, there shouldn't be so much beer around it. [00:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. [00:34:26] Speaker A: What it does to the landscape is a different story, you know. You know, in the environment, you know, with the water use and power. But yeah, I think as a tool, it should be seen as always a tool. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I agree. I think that there's opportunity for AI, especially for professionals who shoot volume stuff like you said, getting rid of the blinks, you know, getting rid of the doubles, getting rid of the out of focus, always having that hand on the, on the wheel to, you know, to make sure that the sort and the color is going correctly the way you want to see it. I think there's a huge benefit in that. I think my big issue with AI is the image creation stuff. And you know, that that's a whole different kettle of fish compared to what we're talking about. Yeah, AI is a tool and it's there and we should use it, you know, and I do to some degree, mostly just like in Lightroom, like I said. Having said that, I'm kind of getting to a point in my photography where I almost feel like just shooting JPEG and just taking my images straight out of camera. And as we know, being Fuji shooters, Fujifilm straight out of camera, JPEGs are the best in the world. So you know, I just, I have an objection to how much Lightroom is now charging for their platform and for cloud storage. And I just feel that maybe there's an opportunity there for me to just ditch that whole part of my workflow. And that's a big leap, you know, it's a big leap to go from having, you know, high res RAW files to, to JPEGs, you know. But I, I, I believe that will make me a better photographer because I'll have to get as much as I can right in camera. You know, I can't just spray and pray and then go back to the computer and let that do the magic for me. It's just a consideration. I want to jump to a quick comment before we move ahead. Actually there's a couple here. Wookie has joined. G' day Shane. Good to see you in, mate. I'm not sure who this one is. Morning. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Oh, that's Tiffany. [00:36:38] Speaker B: Someone you know? [00:36:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Hey, we've got a super fan. Hey Tiffany, thanks for watching. Who else is here? We said hello to Shane. Lisa Leach is here. G' day Lisa. Good morning to you too. Let me have a look. What else we got. Bruce Moyle. Morning everyone. Listening between appointments. And then again from Dennis Smith. Michael, your Instagram is full of stories connection. AI can't create that, mate. And that's a very good point. When I was at the Fujifilm creator summit weekend before last the general manager of Fujifilm Australia got up and gave a really great grounded talk about how AI is disrupting, you know, image creation and content creation. And it was really, it was good. It gave me a little bit of hope, you know, that we're not just going to sail down a path of pure AI image creation. That the word he used was authentic. That, you know, that AI has already read everything we've ever written that's online. It's already looked at pretty much every photo we've ever put online, US corporations, whoever. But it hasn't lived a single moment to understand what those, those experiences were. And I thought that was a really good way of looking at it, that people will still seek authenticity, that there will still be a need for photography, genuine authentic photography, without the need for image creation. So that's my, my view. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Michael. [00:38:14] Speaker B: I want to shift focus a little bit to where you are at today and what sort of projects you're working on today. You know, I found a couple of different Instagram accounts that, that you're responsible for. One is BME surf. Can you tell me what BME surf is? [00:38:32] Speaker A: Oh, that's just broom surfing. So it's just a beach life and broom. And for the last couple of years I've enjoyed just going down, meeting the surfers and just taking photos of surf because it's quite rare to have good waves here. Usually it happens around cyclone season and it's allowed me to just, you know, sometimes, you know, being a professional photographer or working photographer, however you say it, you just get inundated with creating images, editing, sending it, invoicing, you know, that we're going down to the beach. It allows me just to escape a bit. [00:39:21] Speaker B: And [00:39:24] Speaker A: I mean I'll, I'll never be a professional surf photographer, but it's just, I'm enjoying being part of nature and trying to capture something that's so random like, you know, capturing waves and people on waves and allows me to connect with other people within the broom community that I wouldn't necessarily associate with. So which I think I'm not telling people what to do, but I think sometimes we need to, to create or step away from our day to day stuff and you know, working photography, life and, and you know, create something different because you know, we see some of our photographers travel around the world on photo trips, you know, to other countries and I can't do that just of, you know, with life, but I can go around and just take photos of something that's totally different to what people think. I take photos of you know. [00:40:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So, no, I think that's wonderful. It's almost like a secret little pleasure, you know. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:31] Speaker B: That you've got this little side hustle that's just for you. It's about your experience. It's about community. And. And does the local surf community, do they. Do they interact with you? Do you guys, you know, share stories? [00:40:44] Speaker A: I've. I've. It was funny. One. One of the guys said that, you know, guys, I love what you're doing, you know, taking photos of us surfing. But, you know, the negative aspect is now there's heaps of more. Heaps more people surfing. So, you know, so they're complaining about, you know, having too much people on their wave. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:04] Speaker A: And in their hidden spots, which, you know, a bit of a giggle. But, yeah, I have seen a lot more younger people, you know, coming out and always hitting me up, you know, did you take a photo of me today? And stuff like that? So, yeah, it's great, know, and. And, yeah, like, for me, it's. Yeah, just getting out into the elements again and, you know, usually I'll just have headphones on, listen to podcasts or music and just, you know, shoot away. Yeah, I shoot from the beach. I don't go in the water. So it's just. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker A: Oh, it's just relaxful, you know. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds like bliss, to be honest. [00:41:42] Speaker A: And I caught up with Russell or, you know, last year, and. Yeah. And, God, you know, he was telling me he was coming back from his shoulder injury and, you know, stuff like that. And. Yeah, thank God I don't go to water, especially down there. It's bloody cold, you know. [00:42:00] Speaker B: So, yeah, we interviewed Russell, maybe it was the start of last year. He was one of our earlier guests, and I remember him telling us about that shoulder injury that, you know, he was out of action for a bit. I can't remember how it happened, but. And so you're never tempted to go out and do they ever try to sort of coax you into getting on the board? [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I used. I used to surf when I was younger, but now I'll probably have a heart attack. I jump on a board now. A lot of work for the waves. Yeah. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah. But we don't have that same agility we once had. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm happy to shoot it, you know, and. Yeah, send them the photos. It's. It's a great thing to do something, you know, for the community, you know, and, yeah, for me, it's a surf. I mean, people do do that, you know. With street photography or, you know, the local footy or whatnot, you know, and yeah, for me, it's just surf at the moment. I'm enjoying that. Might change in a while, but. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, like, you know, harping back. I think, you know, every photographer needs their little hobby, what they want to shoot, you know, because we do enough to, you know, shoot for our pocket, but then, you know, we have to shoot for our soul, you know, that little. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Wow. [00:43:21] Speaker A: That's why you. Why you want to shoot, you know, and it could be like, you know, using an old film camera or a camera that's not necessarily great for productivity, you know, in an efficient way for work, but it has a character that, you know, you. You just love shooting with it, you know, and. Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:43] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think that's great. And I think that there's value in that for any photographer, regardless of whether you're professional or you're a dedicated birder or landscape is your jam. I think just trying other genres, even just for a short period project. I think that's really, really important, but also valuable because no matter what you shoot or when you shoot it, it's always adding to your skill set. You're always learning something, hopefully, you know, and going into a genre that you wouldn't have put yourself in, you know, will teach you a lot. For example, Lisa Leach, who's in the chat. Lisa's an amazing. Only been doing photography for just over a year. Amazing landscape photographer. And we caught up in Melbourne in CBD a few weeks back for street photography lessons, because I'm a street photographer, and. And it was such a fun experience, you know, and the feedback I got from. From Lisa later was that, you know, she learned stuff from it, she understood a different genre a little bit better. And we spent, you know, an amazing hour, two hours hanging out, just, you know, experiencing the light together and capturing frames. So I think that's a really valuable piece of advice for any photographer, really, you know. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, sometimes, you know, people get too obsessed about getting the best body and camera. You know, this is. It just, you know, it can do everything, but, you know, sometimes you don't want a camera that can do everything, you know? Yeah, you want a camera that makes you want to go out and take a photo, you know, and. Yeah, like, I mean, so, yeah, people need to just stop chasing, you know, the headlines and stuff and trying to get the. The best, the latest. It's like sometimes it's just you need a camera that makes you want to go out and take photos. Otherwise it's soulless. You know, you just. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:41] Speaker A: You know, I hate a camera that feels soulless. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:45] Speaker A: You know, it's. You shouldn't, you shouldn't have to try to get the perfect shot unless the job needs the perfect shot. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:57] Speaker A: You know, it, it, it. You should be able to capture that emotion, that moment. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah. With whatever you've got. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Regardless, it is interesting. I see. I follow a couple of groups on Facebook, as I'm sure we all do, and one of them is the new, relatively new Fujifilm XE5 community. And the amount of times I've seen people a question whether the camera is any good, which is fine. It's a fair question if you're going to drop, you know, a couple of grand. But also asking what lens I should get to go with it with no context. You know, I'm a birder. What would be the best. But none of that. It's just what's the best lens for this camera? And it's, it always baffles me because often I'll say, well, what lenses do you have? You know, and they'll say, oh, I've got this. I said, well, then that's the best lens for the camera right now. You know, and look, don't get me wrong, I've had my fair share of FOMO and gas, you know, from. From desiring the next generation or the next model of camera or better glass or whatever it may be. But, you know, I took 10 years before I stepped up and bought my first professional Fuji prime, you know, current generation. I was shooting with whatever I had. I had some smaller, you know, the smaller F2, I think they called them Fuji Crons. Fujifilm didn't. Influencers did. So. Yeah, I think you're right. I think if you can't take the shot with what you've got, then a new camera is not going to make that easier. [00:47:25] Speaker A: No. You know, and there's certain lenses for certain jobs or certain, you know, that you definitely need. But, you know, the old, you know, 50 mil just tops a lot of, you know, it's amazing lens. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:42] Speaker A: And I think 35, you know, that the focal range is. That's all you need, you know. [00:47:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's pretty sweet. [00:47:50] Speaker A: I did, I did years just shooting on 50 mil and a 200 prime, you know. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:47:56] Speaker A: And I did a lot of that work just using two lenses and. Yeah. You know, and that was with Canon, so I had the 1.4 50 mil and the f2,200 prime, you know, two favorite lenses. Yep. And then when I did the switch to Fuji, I just got the equivalent. Yeah. But I did splurge and I bought the, the F2 200. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Yeah. How are you finding that? [00:48:23] Speaker A: Ridiculous. That's a ridiculous. It's the most ridiculous lens I've ever owned. It's so good, but. Oh God. Bloody expensive. [00:48:33] Speaker B: But that'd be good for photography. It's fast and it's sharp. [00:48:36] Speaker A: I do a lot of it with it. Yeah. I'm lucky enough to be close enough for the range in the reach. Yeah. But I do a lot of it and sometimes I'll pull it out on events because it is small and light. I mean light enough after a while for, you know, just for that, you know, low light shooting and yeah. Brilliant lens. It is a cracker. [00:49:04] Speaker B: Andrew hall, who I mentioned earlier, the motorsport photographer who's also the Fiji ambassador. He, he was, I think he was one of the first people to get that lens. I, I know that he tested it prior to launch and he's, he carries, he lugs that thing all over the world. He loves it. But yeah, I remember, I think when it launched it was like $9,000 or something. Originally when it came, it was ridiculously expensive. Yeah, maybe not that much, but it was a lot. [00:49:31] Speaker A: It's below seven nowadays, I think. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Which I think Fujifilm glass feels ridiculously expensive. But it's a beautiful lens. Yeah. [00:49:41] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, every brand should have an F2,200 mil. It's just, it's just sweet spot for me. I just love shooting that, that range. [00:49:54] Speaker B: But. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's, you know, I've done the silly thing of also jumping in Fuji medium format as well. So, you know, it's, it's nothing silly [00:50:07] Speaker B: about that, my friend. [00:50:08] Speaker A: It's, you know, what, what, what camera do you use, you know, in certain jobs or certain projects, you know and. Yeah, but having the same system and the same colors, you know, helps a lot with the consistency. And yeah, I mean I, I do shoot a lot of jpeg, you know, going back to what you were saying. And I, yeah, the workflow is I shoot a lot of JPEG and then the ones that I love I convert to DNGS to keep. Then I just delete the rest because I made that mistake years ago shooting JPEG and just leaving it. And then, yeah, going back to the files now, they've all just, yeah, look horrible. So tip out there. If you're shooting JPEG, convert them to DNGs. You know. Okay, yeah, that's good to hear. You see that keeps the quality there. Yeah. You know, it doesn't degrade. Yeah, yeah, that's big tip because. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great advice. I didn't know that. That's very cool. [00:51:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Every time you open up a JPEG and view it, it degrades, so. And over time it just. Yeah, degrades. So yeah, if you convert it straight away after you shoot it, the DNGS digital negative files, then it's basically like a RAW file then, you know, stays how you've shot it, but it'll stay like that forever. Yeah, yeah. So good tip out there for JPEG shooters. [00:51:47] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:51:49] Speaker A: You don't want the photos or crap afterwards. [00:51:51] Speaker B: No, you don't, you're. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:52] Speaker B: You don't want to dig them out and realize that, you know, that you've lost that quality. No, I lost my train of thought. Now where do we go? All right, so, so current projects, what, what are you working on at the moment? That sort of falls under your fine art banner [00:52:10] Speaker A: for me, you know, commercially I've been pretty successful, so actually shooting fine art stuff has been pretty non existent for the last five years. I'd say four. Four or five years. So now I'm trying to get back into it and. Yeah, okay, trying to, yeah, you know, obviously over four or five years your, your viewpoint changes and so now it's just trying to find a way to get inspired again and, and you know, and also you have to see what everyone else is doing as well and so working on ways to, to, to stand out as well, especially in the fine art world. Yeah, it's, it's exciting. I just need to sit down and do it and it's all that planning. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah. You need to get your notebook back out. Reading through your, reading through your bio in preparation for today's interview. You know, I, I picked up on a couple of things. One that you've had work displayed, you know, all over the world in exhibitions. I think I saw Germany, China as well as, you know, several locations here in Melbourne. When you have an international, whether it be a piece or a series of images that are being displayed overseas, how does that come about? And how do you, do you send the files and they print them? Do you send the prints? Do you go to that country to see your exhibition or is it all done remotely? Let me know what. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that. [00:53:52] Speaker A: It really depends on the exhibition. Like I haven't been, I haven't been to a launch internationally Yet. But I have seen the work afterwards, you know, as in visiting the space. Usually I'll send the digital files, depending on what country, and get them to print it. Sometimes it's a lot easier and cheaper, to be honest. Yeah, the. The funniest story really was. Was doing work in China. And this was a few years ago now. And yeah, I was. Didn't have. It wasn't an issue. But it was really intriguing how my work and censorship would come up and. And so, yeah, there's a bit of back and forth because, you know, you got to send them a selection. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:50] Speaker A: And then they've got to go through their censorship people to see what they would recommend using. [00:54:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Kind of like saying, don't use that one. But, you know, they do it really politely, like, oh, maybe not that one. Sorry. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Is that because of different values in different countries? Like some countries won't. Don't want to show skin or whatever it may be. What are some of the examples of censorship that you're dealing with? [00:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah, so some of the work I did sent was kind of like, you know, fine art nude. Well, you know, with. With exposed body parts in a way, with paint and everything. And I was. I was pretty worried about that. But then I. Because they were like solo shots. But they said, no, the concerns are the one with the two people touching or, you know, just in proximity. Wow. So it's more about the showing, the intimacy, or could be intimacy versus the body. So you could have a nude body. That's fine. You just got to have them by themselves. Yeah. And opposed to in the same frame. [00:55:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that was. That was interesting because. Well, now I know and I was. I had issues like, oh, do I reshoot everything or do I, you know, crop or, you know. [00:56:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Do you censor your own work just to send it over so it can be ex. You know, exhibited? But knowing that is just certain works couldn't be shown, which is fine with. But, you know, so, yeah, from, you know, coming from Australia, so that made me realize, y. Certain countries, you'll come across that. [00:56:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:28] Speaker A: And. And I guess as a creator, you have to either go, no, I'll never show my works in that country because it goes against my whole artistic beliefs. [00:56:41] Speaker B: Yep. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Or do you have backup work that kind of speaks of your story or what you want to tell, or do you go through and censor everything yourself? You know, so, yeah, that's something you have to really, you know, come across when you do do it. And yeah, you either have to be really flexible or you just don't do it. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Where do you draw a line, like you said, between your artistic integrity that. At the. When you were taking the shot, that's the shot, you know, that's the one that, that compelled you to edit it and, you know, and send it over. If anyone else in the chat has ever dealt with censorship from a client or as part of an exhibition, let us know in the comments. You can do that now, or if you're watching us back a bit later, you can add it to the YouTube comments. Let us know and we'll. We'll check it out, see what people thought. It's an interesting topic, censorship, especially when you're. When you're, you know, sending work to different countries. But how does a. How does an exhibition say in China come about? Were you approached by. By someone from China? Was it something that you pursued actively first yourself? How did it come about? [00:57:53] Speaker A: So for a while I've been trying to do a show in China, and then Moshe at Headon Photo Festival was sending a few bits of work for the. How's it called? Pinao Photo Festival. Okay. Now, whatever it's called there is, they've got multiple photo festivals over there. So, yeah, he asked if I could, you know, send some works in a group show. And that's when we're going through all that censorship issues with that. And then I've done another show with the Australian embassy over there and which was a bit more knowing from what happened in the past, so I had a better curated set of images to work from and it was pretty streamlined then. But there's a couple of shows I want to do, like solo shows that I've just got to create new work for. And then going through DFAT is probably the best way if anyone wants to do a show in China. And you don't know any curators or galleries, if you go through dfat, then they can really help you get in touch with people. [00:59:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Australian government body, isn't it? [00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:59:11] Speaker B: And what's training for again? Department of Foreign affairs and Trade, is it? [00:59:15] Speaker A: Yeah, pretty much, yeah. [00:59:16] Speaker B: Something like that. [00:59:17] Speaker A: Yeah. There's quite a lot of support through the China and Australia partnership. So they're always looking for content from Australia. [00:59:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? [00:59:29] Speaker A: So. Oh, yeah, I've been to China a few times. It's an amazing country. Yeah, definitely, definitely. If you've got an opportunity, you should go. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker A: And of course, you know, I do have some works at a museum in Leipzig. In Germany, which is pretty cool. I do plan to go there to check it out, but, you know, then my fine art kind of slowed right down as the commercial work picked up. And yeah, fighting that balance has been the hardest thing, to be honest, that I've faced because, you know, money up front is a lot easier to play with than gambling on an exhibition and [01:00:16] Speaker B: on selling prints, print sales after, you know. [01:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:19] Speaker B: It's given how much it costs usually to. To print and frame your works for an exhibition. Yeah, it can be quite a perilous gamble. Interesting. And so from your time, you know, you've been to China, you said, a few times, and it's. It's a place you recommend. What did sort of working with the, with the people in China, what did that teach you about other than, you know, you've got to be careful what you curate? You know, was there anything about your core craft, anything about that you discovered that, you know, people in China were doing differently to you? As a photographer, is there anything that you adopted or saw that was really interesting? [01:01:02] Speaker A: I haven't spent a lot of time with them personally about, yeah, Photography stuff, but my bronic's been over there quite a lot with residencies and stuff, so he's probably the best person to talk about. He's done a couple of residencies and exhibitions there and y. It's like, yeah, I can't recommend China anymore than like, you got to go there. Like, it's. Yeah, they're really. Their hunger for art and, and learning from other cultures and countries, it's just immense and. Yeah. And they really give you the respect, especially, you know, in photography and stuff. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. [01:01:50] Speaker A: It's. [01:01:51] Speaker B: It's. [01:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's. There's a lot. [01:01:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:58] Speaker A: All I can say just. Yeah, if you've got an opportunity, definitely go. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I say the same to people about Japan. You know, I've been there a few times and I, you know, I barely scratched the surface. I, I could spend years there and not, not even get out of Tokyo from photography point of view. [01:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:17] Speaker B: And my folks went. My folks went to China a few years ago. They loved it. I mean, they felt a lot. They found a lot of the walking hard. But yeah, I would be interested in going to China. I'd love to go to Seoul and parts of South Korea, but just at the moment, travel doesn't feel as fun as it used to. You know, there's a lot of, A lot of crap going on and let's just take. Oh, God. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Before, before I switch the beauty of photography, it's a universal language. You know, when you go over them countries and you got the camera and you meet other photographers, it's just, you create a bond. You know, even if you are, you know, you go by the, the camera, brand rivalries, you still have a bond, especially if you're shooting a certain subject's the same and, and that's one of the beautiful things about being a photographer and traveling is, you know, there's a universal language there, you know, and it's a beautiful thing when you do, you know, come across that, you know, randomly as well, you know. [01:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And you know, you don't have to know the language to overcome that, to, to achieve that. You know, it's just, it's just a smile and a nod and, you know, a bit of mutual respect. When you're standing there at the same, same street corner or in front of the same temple or whatever it may be and you're both holding a camera, you don't have to say words, you just, just that look, you know, you know, you get it. Just before we move on, I just want to do a quick ad read because I've apparently got to keep the lights on the bills. But folks, today's episode of the Camera Life podcast is proudly brought to you by Lucky straps. Head to Luckystraps.com we make handmade Australian made leather camera straps to fit any camera and to give you comfort, security and confidence in how you connect with your craft. So head to Lucky Straps.luckystraps.com and if you happen to drop something in the cart, use code Greg at checkout and you'll get yourself a healthy discount. Just don't tell Justin, okay? Please. What else do I want to tell people? Oh, Camera Life podcast. So we do this twice a week and we are always live so that you can talk to us while we're talking to guests. Or on Monday evenings we have our random photography show where we talk about industry news, we do live unboxings and we look at your images. That's right, you can send in your images. Just send it to justinuckystraps.com with, you know, one, maybe two images and your camera settings, what you shot the image with, as well as a little story about your experience in getting that image. And we will bring those images up and read out your story on our Monday night shows, which is 7:30pm every Monday evening, Australian Eastern Standard Time. A couple of quick things you can do to make sure that that works for you. First is give us A like for this episode of the Camera Life podcast lets us know that you're there, that you enjoyed what we do, but also hit the subscribe button and tickle the bell icon to all notifications and that way you'll get notified in advance of every episode of the Camera Life podcast before it goes live. But let's, let's crack on with the interview. Michael, you mentioned that, you know, the, the balance for you at the moment between personal or fine art projects and commercial work. You're obviously doing a lot more time on commercial work. What sort of commercial work are you. Are you prominently doing or have been doing [01:05:49] Speaker A: mainly events and festivals, government based work as well. I am getting a bit more back into video because a lot more video projects have been knocking on the door. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. [01:06:06] Speaker A: Which is a good and bad thing. [01:06:09] Speaker B: Tell me about that. What are the good parts of video and what are the bad parts of getting back into video? [01:06:16] Speaker A: If anyone knows if anyone's worked in video is the editing. You know, hats off to editors who love to edit. You know, it's. That's the hardest and longest part of it all where you know, just being the camera operator just shoot and hand off is the best thing in the world. It's one of the reasons why I went to photography is because you just go shoot a job. Minimal editing, you know. [01:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:44] Speaker A: Where videos the other way around and. But you know, it is what it is and it is a lot easier to do video nowadays than what it was. So. And especially the cat. I mean not. I mean the cameras are all right still. Yeah. Could be better. But just a workflow where you can edit anything really just on a laptop. I mean I, I come from a day where you need a huge desktop bloody computer to edit. Where nowadays, you know, it's pretty good, pretty easy. Yeah. [01:07:22] Speaker B: You can do it on your phone. [01:07:23] Speaker A: You just need. You just need time to do it, you know. And that's the hardest thing is finding time to sit and edit. Yep. And I mean it because I've got my. I've got many hats. So you know, and we do have a indigenous fashion festival coming up next week. Some part of. So you know, capturing that and done the Garma Festival for a couple of years and then the Diamond Arts Fair when I was in Melbourne. Did a lot of stuff on the east coast. [01:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:02] Speaker A: It's. It's a lot of travel, especially up and down Wa. And you know, a lot of my work is out outside of Broome. Just good and bad. [01:08:11] Speaker B: It's a big country. [01:08:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, there's not many photographers over here, which is. Yeah. Which is good, you know, for commercial wise for me. But because of the travel and everything, you don't want to do all the jobs because it'll be a nightmare, you know. So you can pick and choose and. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm in a position where, where I can pick and choose. You know, it's taken not, not that long but still a long time to get to that point. [01:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:46] Speaker A: And you know. [01:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:08:51] Speaker A: I'd rather do what I do now than dig a hole, you know, so. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Couple of takeaways for me, you know, about the whole video editing thing. I, I'm terrible at video. I, I have very little knowledge about shooting video with modern cameras, even though my Fuji cameras are more than capable. It's just something that doesn't call to me. Whereas someone like Justin, you know, he shoots hybrid off his R5 Mark II. You know, he'll jump from video to stills on the one job. But it's the editing side of things that always intimidated me as well. Like I just, you know, I've edited a couple of little videos but you know, and I think that's, it's a big part of why we go live other than being available for our community for that, you know, that direct connection like now when we're talking, you know, I hate video, I hate editing video, I hate video production. But for me personally, and Justin's a really lazy editor, so we just do everything live. It's a way to avoid the editing nightmare question. [01:09:51] Speaker A: I wish, I wish the industry would stop their fascination with, with building hybrid cameras. Yeah, I just wish to separate, just separate. Just build the best stills camera you can possibly do. Yeah, you've. Obviously a lot of them have got the best video cameras they can possibly do. Yeah, it's just. Oh, it's annoying as hell. Yeah. And I'd rather the best stills camera with no video features on it at all. [01:10:25] Speaker B: I think that's interesting because I, I've said that too. You know, let's just, let's just strip back and I wonder how much that would alter design and performance and read speeds and you know, all those little things that a camera has to hold for video performance and video recording and audio and all those bits and pieces. If you remove that, could you make a better stills camera? You know? [01:10:48] Speaker A: Well, it's like, I just, it's the most stupid thing in the world for stills camera like. And they've only put that in there for video and for lazy photographers who want to shoot with one hand, you know, so if you remove that makes the camera lighter, makes it cheaper, you know, because even, you know, high end cinema cameras don't have Ibis. [01:11:14] Speaker B: Right, okay. Yeah. [01:11:16] Speaker A: You know, because they want the most perfect and clean image and any, you know, adjustment to it, they don't want. So yeah, that's my view. And then you can have the, I mean, that's why you do see video. You know, companies coming out with their hybrid cameras now with all the video cinema cameras with minimal stills features on them now. Yes, I think it's shifting that way. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah. [01:11:48] Speaker B: And that's because, you know, I mean, the technology is very similar, isn't it? It's just you don't always have to have them in the one body, you know, the Nikon zr, it's intended as a cine camera, you know, for filmmakers and it's incredibly accessible and affordable for people starting out in filmmaking. And then Canon have just released that, what is it, the R60V which is basically a competitor to the ZR from Nikon. Yeah. And like I said, I've often wondered what would happen if they just took the video out of, you know, and just created a powerhouse of a, of a stills camera, you know, and remove that side of it. What that would do, would it alter the price? Would it, you know, would it improve performance? You know, how would that work? But I think it'd take an incredibly brave step for one of the, the big players in the field to go and do that, to say, here's the perfect stills camera. You can't shoot video, you know, that, that could go either way for them. And traditionally camera companies weren't great at taking big risks like that, you know, because they come back to bite them or they flop, you know, and we've seen it recently, you know, the Fujifilm X half, you know, brilliant concept, far too expensive for what it was. But look at the environment we're in. But it was brave and bold. At least, you know, it was a half frame digital camera replicating half frame 35 fill film. Yeah, it's a bold step and that's worth celebrating in itself because that's how the, the industry keeps moving forward, isn't it? That's how we evolve with camera technology, through people being brave. Let me just jump into a couple of comments and then I want to finish up that part of, with one of the comments. Dennis has left. Where were we? Okay, David dear Parker has joined us. G' Day. David, great to see you. He had coffee. This is what we're talking about. Russell Ord earlier had coffee with Russ a couple of days ago and then he went on to say spent some time with Taste recently. Love the ideals behind Black lens as well. Craft is in very good hands. That's a lovely comment. Who's Taste? [01:13:52] Speaker A: She's a WA based female photographer. She studied cinematography I believe in Sydney. So Tay Stevens, she's won a couple of awards this year or last year. [01:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah, she's really good. Should she for an interview? I'm sure she's not. Not that shy so I think she'll be up for it. [01:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah, very cool. All right, I'll take note. Next comment here is from Lisa Leach talking about our street photography afternoon. It was a great afternoon, Greg. It's so good to see the world through another photographer's eyes or through another's eyes in general. And I think that's, that's a really, it's a very powerful message, a very important message that we don't see a lot of seeing someone else's point of view. From Wookie. Shane Lauer now have a 200 F2 for about 2500 AUD, so even that's becoming more accessible. And Laura have just announced their first autofocus lenses so be interesting to see what they bring out next. Lucinda Goodman's join us. Good morning. Good morning, kiddo. Great to see you. And here's another question from Dennis. Do you get much pushback here in Australia around the content of your work? Do you face that at all? I'm not going to say outright discrimination but just pushback on the content. [01:15:27] Speaker A: I've had of various pushback and gatekeeping. Sometimes judges and stuff feel like my work is not indigenous or they don't know I'm indigenous because it doesn't fit their stereotypical view of what indigenous photography is, whatever that is. Right. It's sometimes they, the subject matter, they feel like it's, it's offensive. But this is coming from a non indigenous person. [01:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Those people are indigenous or they're not. [01:16:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's a lot of, you know, through the curators and judges and that and whatnot who just lack of understanding, to be honest. Yeah. Think that, you know, the indigenous community is that fragile that they're the ones to save them and, and, and stop offensive work when, you know it's not because it's. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. Some, some. Sometimes it's just outright ridiculous. You know, I've, I'VE I've been told my work looks too kitsch for a art fair, which was hilarious. I thought art fair is full of kitsch for, you know, artwork. The sole point of an art fair. Yeah, it's. It. You. You do get it. And sometimes it's, you know, you do feel when, when you're not the, the, you know, the in thing at the moment. Yeah. But I don't create my work for those things. I don't create my work for awards or anything like that. [01:17:28] Speaker B: It's. Yeah. [01:17:29] Speaker A: I'm a more storyteller and I just. Photography is just a tool that I use. [01:17:34] Speaker B: Yep. [01:17:35] Speaker A: That's why, you see, my work [01:17:38] Speaker B: is [01:17:38] Speaker A: very different at times because I stylize and create the work to match the story I'm telling at that time. Which I guess sometimes can be a nightmare for curators. But, you know. [01:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:57] Speaker A: I would like to say it's getting better, but everything goes in cycles. And at the moment, it is a very hard time to be a black creator in Australia because there's a lot of people who are holding, who are gatekeeping, who are using. I don't know if it's from the, the outcome from the voice, but they, they're trying to be these white saviors and, and Right. Just. Yeah. It's crazy what's happening. It's. It's hard to explain it all because it's all micro anger things is all over the place. It's all at different, you know, levels. [01:18:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:41] Speaker A: And it's basically a lot of black photographers and black creators have become silenced in speaking up. But then also the type of work that's been curated to, to be showcased and the type of workers that seem to be, you know, black photography or indigenous photography. But it's through only a certain style. And sometimes it's a style that is predominantly from non indigenous photographers work that they're going, this is what black photography is acceptable to us. Wow. [01:19:23] Speaker B: Imagine the colonizers telling the indigenous people how to do things, what's right and what's wrong. That sounds pretty familiar, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. [01:19:32] Speaker A: And. [01:19:32] Speaker B: And so state of affairs, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. [01:19:36] Speaker A: It's. So we're going back to that cycle at the moment, but if you look at, you know, politics at the moment, it's. It's understandable, you know. [01:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:45] Speaker A: So we're just pretty much being told to go back in our box for a little while. [01:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:49] Speaker A: Until the next movement where we can come out and say our bits and, and you see that like, I said across the board. And you know, it's. And to be honest, it's just lack of awareness or knowledge or lack of a. You know, you've got, you've got people who are in power who are saying that they're trying to be respectful for black photography or black art. [01:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:25] Speaker A: Who maybe only know a handful of black people who haven't traveled Australia and, you know, it's like actually go and, and stop learning about us from a book and go and meet us. [01:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:40] Speaker A: And stop judging us by the one or two, you know, who are conveniently near you. You know, go out and actually learn and go out and see what we want to capture, the stories, you know. [01:20:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:53] Speaker A: There, there's a reason why a lot of us don't want to capture certain images and stuff like that and because [01:21:02] Speaker B: you know that there'll be push back because of it. Even though it's raw and it's real. [01:21:06] Speaker A: Well, no, it's just that we don't want to. That's not what we see ourselves as. You know, sometimes we're at a point where we actually want to show the positives and the excellence of our people. We don't want to show the poverty of all the time. Every time there's, you know, this thing of the kid in the dirt and everything and. But yeah, yeah, that's the whole thing. But we actually want to. How about showing the people who are actually working hard or something, you know, the positive aspects of it. Yeah, yeah. Every time it's this poverty porn level work. Yeah. [01:21:39] Speaker B: You know, it's that bias in media, isn't it? [01:21:42] Speaker A: You know, and it's, it's as strong as ever, you know, and, and now. And the sad thing is, you know, our creatives and, and black photographers kind of know that that's the work that wins. Well, that's the work that gets in these spaces. Yeah. Now we have to kind of mimic that work now so we actually get a. We we're hamstrung because then we can't show the work that we really want to show. We have to go down a level to show that the work that is generally accepted. [01:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but I mean, that in itself is yet another example of, you know, of cultural silencing. Yeah. Isn't it? It's about telling you how you need to represent your own culture. And. Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't seem to learn, Michael. We're not very good at learning. Us white folk, us colonizers, we just. It baffles me, but I, I guess in that Vein. And I'm not discounting any of that, what you've said, but things like black lens, that makes them more important than ever, doesn't it? That indigenous photographers. Supporting indigenous photographers. [01:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And don't get me wrong, like there's a lot of non indigenous photographers out there who want to help, who have helped, who help create pathways and that, you know, the people who are doing this stuff, but it's actually the other people who come in who are experts in their fields or whatnot, but who are put in a position where they now have to be experts in black imagery and they've never met a black foe in their life at all. How do you, how can you tell? Yeah, so it's the laziness of institutions and award competitions who, who just, you know, we're just lazy basically, you know. [01:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:46] Speaker A: If, if you have a, if you have an indigenous category in your competition and you don't have indigenous judge or someone to help talk about the nuances of the work, well then don't do the bloody indigenous category, you know? Yeah. Why not? It's, it's just, it's insulting to a lot of us in that regard because they'll use their own bias of what they've seen and known to select or curate the word. [01:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's interesting and I wonder if, you know, other first nation cultures in New Zealand, in North America, in Canada, Asia, you know, parts of East Europe, whether they face the same sort of. It's almost like I think you mentioned earlier, microaggressions, you know, about who you are as an artist and what you can and can't present and censoring things, you know, I wonder if other artists in other first nation communities feel that too. Be an interesting thing to look at. [01:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:54] Speaker B: I fear the answer of course would be that everyone faces it. But, but. Yeah, a couple more. [01:25:03] Speaker A: But I mean, Sorry, sorry. I mean, I don't, I don't want to make it sound like it's a big downer at the moment because we are resilient, you know, we're not fragile. It's just, it's a frustration that the rest of the, the mainstream community won't see amazing work because it's been gatekeeped by ignorance and just laziness, basically. But you can go online and find their work anyway. So it's, that's the beauty of social media and that and the Internet nowadays. Because the problem is a lot of people rely on stuff spoon fed to them and that's where we're missing out on you know, so that has mainstream. Has to be better at spoon feeding the masses the correct word and doing that properly. Yeah, there's a lot of people don't want to do the hard work of finding people online and, you know, chasing up stuff. [01:26:11] Speaker B: Of course, yeah. You know, let me have a look at these comments. Just give me a sec. Dennis just said. Thank you. I think in response to that question and your answer, your work is beautiful. What we were talking about, you said it's insane. It is. And final comment before I jump to Paul's comments. Dennis just says, as a New Zealand man, it is very different there in terms of, you know, that gatekeeping and that, you know, kind of toning down the cultural significance of works. Paul's in the chat. G', day, Paul. Haven't spoken to you for a bit. If I want to educate myself on the black imagery as a white fellow photographer, what is the best way to go about that, Michael? [01:27:02] Speaker A: Well, just find a black photographer online or through social media and just say hello and ask for a chat. It's the best way. [01:27:13] Speaker B: You can go to Black Lens because [01:27:15] Speaker A: you can go there, pick someone there. It's, it's. I mean, don't be afraid to just spark up a yarn. And. And like I said, the beauty of photography is that universal language. You know, if you find a black photographer who shoots the same gear as you, then that's a segue into a conversation, you know. [01:27:38] Speaker B: Yep. [01:27:38] Speaker A: And then go from there, you know, it's. We, yeah, just. Yeah, it's the best way to start a yarn is to talk about the cameras, talk about, you know, photography. That's the key thing. [01:27:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:53] Speaker A: And go from there. [01:27:53] Speaker B: It's a gateway, isn't it, for us? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that at the Creator Summit a couple of weeks ago standing in line. Just the conversations that were being had up and down that line before the doors open about photography. And then when we got in, it just was overload. Talk about photography. But it was just interesting to see that community, you know, people that were standing next to me that I'd never met before, and we're comparing cameras and talking about lenses and what do you shoot? What do you shoot? You know, that sort of stuff comes out. And you're right, it is a universal language, what we do, which I think is wonderful shift gear, because as you know, I'm a Fujifilm fanboy. Fairly sure I'm the number one ticket holder of that fan club. And you yourself shoot Fuji. You transitioned from Canon to Fuji. Can you tell us A little bit about why you made that choice. [01:28:47] Speaker A: When I was heavily into Canon, I bought the first Fuji X100, that model, because I did want it. Just a nice, fun point and shoot. [01:28:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And [01:29:01] Speaker A: even back then, you know, I fell in love with just the image that came out of it, and I thought it was amazing. I still got us up here. Hopefully it'll have more value down the track. So. Yeah. Just loving the colors. Obviously everyone talks about it, but for me, shooting Canon was perfection. You know, the best, best rendition of color you can get. Yeah. Obviously there's debate across, you know, Nikon and Sony were just new in the game then, so it was just. Yeah, Canon and Nikon where, where the Canon was just perfect for what I needed. It was a workhorse. But then I wanted something different and that was. I was talking about the balance of. I shot a lot of the. The Fuji just for myself. Fun stuff, stuff that I would never shoot with my Canon because, you know, you know, at the time, you know, the 5D bulky beast and that. And I, I realized that people were very, you know, when I brought the Canon out, they were very reserved, you know, but then I bring out this little Fuji wouldn't shoot, and they're a bit more relaxed. So obviously the, the intimidation of the size of the gear, I. I saw that play out. And then I did a lot more portraits, fun portraits with a little point and shoot. [01:30:30] Speaker B: Yep. [01:30:31] Speaker A: And then I realized then the GFX100 came out. [01:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:37] Speaker A: And I had to play with that stupidly at a store and said, okay, that's what I'm gonna get. I'm gonna save up for that. The quality, it's. It is a lot. Thank you covered. So, yeah, I'll. I'm gonna shoot everything on the Fuji. Once I get it, I'll do all my fine art stuff on the Fuji because that's, that's the look I was after. Just using the presets from that and a little bit of tweaking. [01:31:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Fujifilm current colors, I think, have character, which I like, especially for my street photography stuff. [01:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I could have. I could get from the 5 from the Canon because I had the 5Ds and I was doing a lot of fine art work with that. [01:31:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:27] Speaker A: But I found myself tweaking a lot in the edit to get happy. And when I had to play with the Fuji, it just was closer to what I wanted than what I was getting from the Canon because the Canon was just too perfect in the color rendition that I, you know, I was like, I want, I want something with a bit different. That's what kind of happened. And then talking to Warwick from Fuji for a while and I happened to be in Sydney one day and well, he can't get in trouble now because he doesn't work for them. He said, I'll pick you up. I said, all right. So he picked me up from the hotel and just like there's some kind of bloody drug deal. Okay, just look under the seat. I looked under and he pulled out the XH2 pre production model. [01:32:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:18] Speaker A: And I said, wow, so that's my workhorse. So then I did. RF system was coming out and I realized, do I stay with Canon and upgrade? And then I did the calculations like it was gonna cost me just a little bit more to do the switch. Yeah. And so I just did the switch and. Yeah. And known going forward that my fine art work will be in a Fuji system was okay. I was happy with that. But then the workhorse stuff, realizing my work was going to be a lot of social media based output and you know, not big billboard banners if I needed to do that. I had the gfx. So yeah. Using a crop sensor just felt right if I had the right lens. So I made sure I got the right balance of lenses so that people really didn't know I switched because I didn't see a huge jump in image quality. [01:33:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:33:21] Speaker A: And so I was very clever in that regard. And then I said, yep, I made the switch. [01:33:26] Speaker B: Yep. And for me, your point about it's not the, it's not the gear, it's the person who makes the images great, you know. [01:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I had the, I had the, you know, 35 mil 50 mil prime and a 200 mil prime. That was my look. [01:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:45] Speaker A: And then I made sure I had the right lenses to kind of match it on the Fuji system, which I could pretty much almost perfectly. And I switched and then the only difference was the color a little bit different because I was editing on a Canon system to match this kind of look that the Fuji was closer to. [01:34:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:34:09] Speaker A: Ironically. So which for me is Astia. You know, the Astia look that I like. [01:34:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm a classic crime man myself. [01:34:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:20] Speaker B: It works well for my street photography. [01:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So I could buy, I could buy two bodies and two lenses for the cost of the new, you know, rf system. Yeah. RF5 with in one lens. [01:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:42] Speaker A: So I re kitted everything what it cost, you know, it was half the price. [01:34:46] Speaker B: Really. Yeah. [01:34:46] Speaker A: It was crazy. And people didn't notice a difference. So the clients didn't know the difference. So for me it was a big win. Yeah. And yeah, it's just. And the gear is lighter, lighter and cheaper, but quality is the same, you know, unless you are. Unless you're a pixel peeper, it just no difference. [01:35:13] Speaker B: It's fascinating because. [01:35:16] Speaker A: Sorry, before and it was funny because the main gripe would people tell me, oh, why are you going Fuji? The autofocus is terrible. I said if, if you can't make it work, then you need to practice more. Because I have no problem using autofocus, honestly. Sure, it's not snappy in some points. If you're a pro sports shooter, stick with Canon and whatnot because they've got the gear for that in that regard, but for what I needed everyday stuff, have no issues, you know. [01:35:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And you're right, there's a reason why Cannon bring out a flagship camera at every Olympics, you know, because they want it, they want to showcase their sports prowess. And that's. You're right, that's. That's where they, they literally win the game with that autofocus performance, subject tracking performance. But it depends on what you shoot and all of those sorts of things. I was going to ask you a question about Fujifilm, but I think I'll just jump to a couple of comments because we do have some Fuji shooters in the chat. Nev Clark. Speaking of which, now Nev is in WA and I suddenly can't remember the name of the town. Is it Esperance? Nev, whereabouts are you in wa, mate? I'm sorry, I get it wrong every time Nev says I work in counseling and work with many and alongside many indigenous people. It's enriched my life beyond words can describe. Thank you, Michael. That's lovely, Nev. And then Nev, who doesn't need very much convincing at all, Michael, to buy a new camera. I talked him into picking up like a Q3. I gave him my usual speech of, you know, the half the world's on fire. We don't know what tomorrow will bring. Get the camera, you know, if it makes you happy, then that's great. [01:36:57] Speaker A: And he did. [01:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah, but he's also a GFX shooter. Once you've seen. Once you see a GFX camera, it's hard to unsee those files. It's jaw dropping, isn't it? Albany. Sorry, Nev, I got it wrong. He's in Albany. [01:37:11] Speaker A: Cold country. [01:37:13] Speaker B: A South, isn't it south of Wall. Like south. Nwa and you're up higher. It's a big country. I wonder what the distance is between the two. It must be something staggering. [01:37:27] Speaker A: Probably close to three and a bit thousand kilometers. [01:37:30] Speaker B: Isn't that insane? [01:37:31] Speaker A: It's not. [01:37:32] Speaker B: More. [01:37:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:37:35] Speaker B: Being a city person, you lose, you lose sight of the scale of the country. And then every now and then I'll see social media posts where the person will say, you know, I took off from Melbourne and I've been on the plane for, you know, seven hours and I'm still over Australia, you know, because they're sort of heading across the country almost on their flight. It is such a huge country. What else do I want to talk about? So with the, with your gear now. Oh, no, sorry. That's what I was going to say. I distracted myself. Sorry. Michael, it's interesting that you're. Your Fujifilm origin story is pretty much identical to mine. It was the original X100. A friend lent it to me to have a shoot. We went out for a walk. That was it. I was sold. And I was a Canon shooter, much like yourself. Got rid of all my Canon gear and then started to invest in Fujifilm and, and I just found especially those early Fuji primes, like the original 16, the original 23, they just had so much character and they were so sharp. So, yeah, it's interesting we share that same story. And so what. Let's talk about what you're working on these days. What, what sort of commercial work have you got coming up? Or are there projects that you've got, you know, in the wings that you'd like to soon delve into what's on the horizon for you? [01:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, a lot of, a lot of the work that I want to do is actually non photography based. Well, actually, no, I, I'll retract that. I'm actually been playing around for the last year playing around with lidar photography and really getting to that and what's possible and you know, working through the limitations and gear. [01:39:29] Speaker B: For the uninitiated, what is lidar photography? [01:39:33] Speaker A: Oh man, I'm so new to it. I can't explain it in the most simplest term. Basically it's just 3D scanning of an environment. [01:39:44] Speaker B: 3D mapping stuff? [01:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah, using the, the infrared death camera. I've just been using the latest iPhone for it at the moment. [01:39:57] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:39:59] Speaker A: But you can, you can use other photography like, you know, capture stills and put in the software. But I've just been using the phone just as a quick way of experimenting and testing it out and then finding an angle and then exporting an image from that. Because I do want to play on, on, on the, the aspect of, you know, kind of like I was talking about this the other day and I forgot how to explain it. So it's recreating a space that is obviously artificial, but you don't. Yeah, it's. It's a weird thing because the images isn't a hundred percent photorealistic. There's also. There's always twerks in it or weird things that happen. And for me, it's kind of like the actual camera and the software is creating its own version of the world. And it's. For me, it's like that's, that's more real than what AI created stuff is. Because AI is, you know, obviously getting everything. Yeah. And creating something. The actual camera and the software is interpreting the world in real time of a certain subject or space. And I kind of like, the idea of that is like, you know, it's like, what. How would a robot take a photo of a tree type thing? You know, and that's as close as we could probably get because, you know, we see the world in, you know, two lenses where this robot or whatever can actually see it and in 3D space. So how's that different and all that crap? Anyway? [01:41:50] Speaker B: No, I think that's really cool. And I, I don't think I've ever seen people do it. I've seen people do it with drones, but that's more. It's more industrial and agriculture kind of that LIDAR 3D mapping of crops and livestock and that sort of thing. But it's an interesting concept to then turn that to a photographer's eye, you know, like you're describing. [01:42:13] Speaker A: Yes, it's very big in the commercial world because for drone stuff and, you know, it's 3D mapping objects and stuff, but, you know, it's like. Yeah. As close to an robot taking a photo or something. Or an Android, you know. Yeah, it's a, It's a funny play because obviously a human has to hold. You hold the camera. So it's kind of like. And that's what I'm trying to. Is that ju AOS of, you know, you know, allowing the, the. The robot to capture something, but you still have to have that human touch. [01:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:48] Speaker A: You know, it's. Yeah. Because you can't do any settings. It's like it's just captures it, you know. Yeah. The lighting's the lighting you can't change. Yeah. There's no filters, nothing. It's just. Yeah, it's the, the robot Capturing a space in what it sees. Yep. [01:43:06] Speaker B: And I think that's fascinating. I think it's a great twist on. On the use of that sort of 3D mapping to turn it into an artful purpose and make a statement, you know, about. This is how we see the world. This is how a machine sees the world. [01:43:21] Speaker A: Pretty much, yeah. [01:43:22] Speaker B: You know, and comparing that, comparing the two, I think that's really powerful. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Might not go anywhere, but it's just what I'm. I'm enjoying it. Yeah. [01:43:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, and I think that's often. That's overlooked about that, what you just said about the enjoyment. You know, I often talk about, in some of the articles I write about how switching to Fujifilm taught me the joy of photography. You know, because I wasn't carrying heavy gear. I didn't feel like just because I've got a big expensive Canon and, you know, lens kit that I have to be a great photographer. I could just be myself. I can just very easily, you know, wherever I go, wherever I go on walks, I take a camera in my hand and it makes the process more enjoyable, you know, delivers that joy. And I think that's a really important balance because it can't be all work. It can't be all meeting deadlines and deliveries to clients and negotiating outcomes with people. You know, you've got to keep your art alive in one way or another. And I think a project like you're talking about, the lidar is a great way to do that. It's an angle that you don't know if it's going to work. And if anything, that's. That makes it really exciting, you know, for sure, because you don't know unless you try. And that that's what will then, I believe, advance your craft. Others will learn from you, you know, and we step into new levels of creativity. I think that's really powerful. A couple of questions I want to ask you just. Just to finish up on gear. You said that you picked up the GFX. What GFX are you rocking now? Just the original 100. [01:44:58] Speaker A: Yeah, the 100. [01:44:59] Speaker B: The original. That's the big tall body, isn't it? It's quite a. Yeah, it's quite a big camera. [01:45:03] Speaker A: It's a tank. It's a tank. [01:45:04] Speaker B: It is. [01:45:05] Speaker A: And yeah, I would love to get the 1/ hundreds too, because even with 100, it's too intimidating at times when I do want to camera take portraits of people. Yeah, I do want something a little bit smaller. So y. Yeah, the 100. [01:45:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Wait for a sale. I reviewed the 1/002 when it came out because they launched it here in Australia rather than in Japan or they did the Fuji presentation from Australia and Charlie from Fujifilm was the one that went, oh, and here's the new One Hundreds Mark ii. That's such a beautiful camera, but it's so much smaller than the original 100. Yeah, you know, it, it brings it down to almost the size of an XH2. Yeah, it's very close and like you say, that's less intimidating, you know. Yeah. [01:46:02] Speaker A: And it doesn't have all the video features from the 100, 102. So going to my point, yeah, hopefully camera companies really make still based, still focused cameras again, you know, and yeah, because yeah, anyone in a video world shooting on hybrids is a nightmare at most times because of all the gear you need to add to it, filters and all this stuff, you know, and so sometimes you just want to strip it back to what the, the cameras were meant to be, you know, and yeah, yeah, I would love a, like I said, I would love a medium format, small format that, that just does stills. [01:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:51] Speaker A: You know, and, yeah, and because if, if it wasn't a thing then, you know, you wouldn't have these cameras like the, the Leica you and all this stuff, you know, because these are cameras, you know, the camera companies do provide these little niche cameras for people. [01:47:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:47:11] Speaker A: So it's just more like, look, just make the best hybrid if you want, but also make the best stills camera you can, you know. Yeah, people buy it like, come on. [01:47:20] Speaker B: I, I think they would. Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's lots of people out there like me who just want to take photos. I don't want to do video. I have no interest in it. You know, I use my MacBook webcam that's built in. I don't set up a video camera or anything like that. And I think there's a great, a greater chunk of the population of, you know, people that do photography that don't touch video yet we're paying for the features when we buy that camera. So yeah, it is interesting, but it would be a pretty bold move for them to, for any of the big brands to do it. If anything, I reckon it would happen with someone smaller, you know, maybe OM Systems or, you know, one of those, maybe even Fujifilm. You never know. But I will say this though. There's been a resurgence, especially in the last 18 months of people wanting, aside from that whole, you know, high flash, deep shadow, you know, look that people are seeing in their images that, you know, there's this sort of trend of oh gosh, I think I've lost my train of thought. I've gone around in circles too much, Michael. I've lost my train of thought. What was I talking about? I was talking about Fujifilm cameras that don't do video. Oh look, it's gone. Don't worry folks, it obviously wasn't important. Senior moment, Michael. I just had a senior moment. They've been happening more and more. I don't know if you're finding that but. But yeah, the old memory is not what it used to be. Couple of quick comments here from the chat again. Nev said yes, I have the 1/ hundreds smart two and it's bloody amazing. The 1/ hundreds two is phenomenal and it's 4k video only which is interesting. So they still dropped it in there but you know, pretty standard kind of output. And then again from there. Yes. Leica amazing supplements to the GFX image quality in the Q3 is close to medium format with that second 60 megapixel sensor. A question for you as a photographer. You know, you're shooting with Fuji, you know, you're looking at 100 megapixel files. What do you think is next? What's going to be the next big push in camera technology? [01:49:47] Speaker A: Well, I think Fuji are probably going the stack sensor. So faster readout. Yeah. I guess they've got to follow from what Sony's doing because they make the sensors. So. Yeah, true. I, I think faster readout is, is on a stills perspective is great if, you know, if you want, you know, more of a burst speed. But yeah, I think it shouldn't be at the risk of losing, you know, dynamic range, I think. Yep. I think the most important thing is dynamic range going forward because God, you don't need, you don't need sensors more than 60 megapixels really. But if your dynamic range is great. [01:50:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:36] Speaker A: Then you know, that's the, that's the perfect sweet spot really to go any, to go any bigger and pixels would be stupid. Yeah. If you, if you, you know, I'd [01:50:47] Speaker B: be happy with the cost of other things. Yeah. [01:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Like I would be happy with the dynamic range from the GFX100. I would happy with that quality to like a probably 24 megapixel or even a 40 megapixel sensor if you get the same dynamic range. What if whatever wizardry they can do that would be perfect for people. [01:51:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:14] Speaker A: You know, because how you can pull Back the shadows and highlights of those, you know, GFX files are just amazing. If you can do that on a smaller sensor, then that's all you need to do. [01:51:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting especially now when we're faced with, you know, the hugely rising cost of, of storage and memory, whether it be an SD card or you know, a hard drive or, or an SSD for your computer. You know, the big, the higher the megapixels, the bigger those files become. And yes, it's great especially if you need it for work that you can, you know, extract so much more out of those, especially the GFX files. But it almost sort of, you know, when you're shooting it 60 megapixels and you're just, you know, you're doing it for fun. The files are just ridiculously big to manage to store. You know, even just processing images, you know, it takes so much longer the bigger the files get. I remember when I, when I reviewed the GFX1 hundreds Mark II, Fuji sent me a pre production copy and I went out and did some street photography and I had that amazing 500 mil, the 5.6 that came out with it and I was testing and reviewing that as well and, and then I got back home and I had like a 2017 IMAC and put the SD card in and it just chugged like it just could not handle the file sizes in Lightroom. My, you know, my computer was already old as it was. So there's always that consideration. You know, you step up to medium format, you might have to upgrade your computer and your storage system. [01:52:54] Speaker A: You know, that's definitely do. [01:52:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Of that process. You know, it's not just about oh I can afford, finally can afford a gfx. It's like, yeah, but how old's your computer and how much storage have you got? Because you need to think of that as well. That's almost part of the purchase of a medium format camera. Yeah. [01:53:11] Speaker A: You know. Yeah. Because I mean the irony is you, you get a medium format camera for the dynamic range because yeah, you're most likely going to show off the image that you took on a phone or if you rarely print it, you know, it's big so it's not the pixel, you know, the, the print size that you want, it's the dynamic range. You know, that's what makes the image amazing. So yeah, so yeah, I mean hopefully companies don't go any bigger than God, 120 or 150 megapixels because yeah, just be there'd be no point to it if the dynamic range gets worse, you know. [01:53:54] Speaker B: So I think yeah, yeah. And even, even if it does improve, like even at, you know, even if they go up to 120, 150 megapixels, what are we really chasing then? You know, how much better could it possibly be for the average, even just the average professional photographer? Sure, fine art photographers like really high end, but have a use for that. So sort of sensor. [01:54:16] Speaker A: But in reality it'll be for those people who love the crop, you know, and who don't want to get closer to the subject or. Yeah, I don't know. There's this, you know, for me is just get the best quality image you can, you know, in camera, you know, and if, if you can do that then the rest of it is, you know, you can just tweak it. But I don't know, we're at the whim of the camera companies. We'll, we'll go whichever way they do and, and hopefully they listen to us enough to, you know, make things easier. [01:54:59] Speaker B: But yeah, better outcomes, that's all we need. Final question for you today, Michael. I am aware of time. We're almost at the two hour mark and you're hanging in there, which I really appreciate. This is a question that Justin would normally ask at the end of every interview. So I'm going to ask it on his behalf and his question goes like this. So let's imagine, you know, let's imagine you're out and about. It's the end of the world. The zombie apocalypse has become a reality. Everyone's becoming zombies. There's people eating brains everywhere. Just keep in mind this is Justin's question, not mine. But if you knew that that was on the horizon and it was, and you know, the zombie horde were marching towards your place in Broome and you could only grab one camera and one lens to document the end of the world. What would that camera and lens be? [01:55:52] Speaker A: I would usually say whatever is closest to me, but if I had a choice, It'll be the gfx 100 and the 80 mil. Just because the weight of that lens and body, I could definitely, you know, stop a few. [01:56:19] Speaker B: Weaponize it, you mean? [01:56:20] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:56:23] Speaker B: that's a good idea. A little bit of self defense from, from a, from a medium format camera. I seem to have lost you. I think you're frozen and I hope you're still there, mate. [01:56:34] Speaker A: Still there, yeah. Cool. [01:56:35] Speaker B: Yeah, just the video, I think the video is freezing. Sorry. [01:56:38] Speaker A: Yeah, but to be honest, it'll be. I've got the Fuji X100V and it's just a beautiful little camera. [01:56:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [01:56:49] Speaker A: Y. You know. Yeah. Hopefully we don't get to that point. [01:56:57] Speaker B: Yeah, let's, let's. There's enough crap and crap going on in the world. We don't need a zombie apocalypse. Well, look, I think that might be a great place to draw a closer to today's interview. Michael, I really, on behalf of everyone here and on behalf of the folks in the chat, thank you so much for joining us on the Camera Life podcast and, and sharing your story and, and being open and, and, and honest and exposed about some of the challenges you face. You know, being a, being a member of a First nations community, creative as well, and those challenges that still exist today. You know, I think we, we don't seem to learn from our mistakes and it's sad to hear that those sorts of challenges are still, you know, just as prevalent as you said, as ever. And we certainly hope for change. If folks want to check out your work, where's the best place for them to go? [01:57:54] Speaker A: Just on Instagram, really? [01:57:56] Speaker B: Yep. [01:57:56] Speaker A: Jellary Photography or just on my website, jellaroo.com. [01:58:01] Speaker B: yeah, wonderful. So, yeah, folks, go and check out Michael's work. He's got several Instagram accounts, so the challenge is for you to find them. But yeah, go and go and check out his work and definitely have a look at Black Lens. It's the Instagram account and the website. Got some amazing photographers on there that are definitely worth checking out. And who knows, maybe your next collaboration, if you're, you know, looking to do a project, maybe your next collaborator is in that group. Michael, thank you once again, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you and getting to hang out and chat with you more. I'm just going to. Just before we, we end today's stream, I just want to say goodbye to some folks in the chat. Let's see who's been here. So, Nev, thank you so much, Nev. Paul Sutton. Gosh, Nev, you've got a lot to say this morning. The comments are thick and fast. Shane Wookie was here, Lisa Leach was here. Philip Johnson, a couple of comments here from Paul. He said very quickly, if they go much higher in pixels, I will need to get an eye upgrade. Yeah, that's very good point. Philip Johnson, first in the chat. Thanks, Greg and Michael, good show. Have a great day everyone. Matt Palmer from Alpine Light in Bright. Matt, good to see you. Thanks for the chat, fellas. Lucinda from Geelong, thanks so much for sharing your insight and story. Michael, Lisa, once again, thank you. Great, Greg and Michael. Oh, and Sam Olson. Great interview, Greg. Thanks, Sam. I look forward to catching up with you. Sam just went and spent a ridiculous amount of time in Japan doing all the touristy and the photography things. I'm very jealous. But on that note, we'll say farewell. Unfortunately, we don't have any outro music because Justin takes care of that and I can't do it from here. But, yeah, we certainly look forward to seeing what. What's on the horizon for you. We'll keep an eye out. And if you ever want to jump back on the Camera Life podcast, we'll always make space for you. You. So thank you so much. All right, folks, we'll leave it at that. How's that for timing? Two hours on the dot. We started on time, we finished on time. Michael, we are quite the team. All right, folks, we will see you on Monday evening, 7:30pm Monday for the random photography show. And we've got a little bit of catching up to do with your images because we weren't able to do it last week. This week. Yeah, we'll see you then. All right, guys, be safe. Thank you. Bye.