How Photography Changed the Way TJ Sees the World

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam. Well, g' day everybody and welcome back to the Camera Live podcast. It is Thursday, 29th October. It's bright and early here in cloudy Melbourne, Victoria. But being a Thursday morning, of course, we are joined by an amazing international photography guest today. TJ Thorne joins us. TJ is Oregon based fine art, landscape and nature photography. And today we intend to find out what makes him tick, which it all began and where he's headed to. Tj, welcome. How are you? [00:00:56] Speaker B: I'm doing so great. Thank you for having me. Both to you, Greg and Justin. Yeah, I'm looking forward to a wonderful conversation. I'm currently, you know, there's an amendment to the intro that I am no longer Oregon based. As of the beginning of August. I moved into my van with my cat full time and we are currently traveling around. Been on my friend's property near Yosemite, California for the past two months building it out. But I just took a week and a half off to travel down to Texas and back and I'm, I'm on route back to my, my home base to continue building up the van. But right now I'm in the Eastern Sierras of California, which is just an absolutely stunningly beautiful place and a friend's backyard and so yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Wow, you're living the dream. Hey, [00:01:42] Speaker C: a [00:01:42] Speaker A: man [00:01:42] Speaker C: dreaming [00:01:43] Speaker B: life, living a dream. One of the two. We're getting there. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:46] Speaker C: That's [00:01:47] Speaker A: amazing. [00:01:47] Speaker C: The Eastern Sierras. Where exactly is that? I'm trying to picture. I [00:01:52] Speaker B: got [00:01:52] Speaker C: to drive around a little bit. It's [00:01:54] Speaker B: about. So yeah, it's probably 4ish hours northeast ish of Los Angeles, west of Death Valley. So there's the, you know, Death Valley has, you know, their mountain ranges and their valleys. And then we have the Sierra mountain range. So like Mount Whitney. And you know, the Sierras also include like Yosemite and there's a valley on the east, there's a valley on the east side called the Owens Valley and it's actually where Los Angeles steals all their water from. It's a big topic here. But yeah, it's, it's kind of nestled between the Inyo Mountain wilderness and you know, the Eastern Sierras and it's just a beautiful place. [00:02:38] Speaker A: That sounds terrible for a nature landscape. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:02:42] Speaker C: I've got to bring it up. So I'm just. So [00:02:45] Speaker B: search Bishop. That's where I am right now. [00:02:47] Speaker C: Bishop. Bishop in make sure. Oh yeah. California. There we go. Okay. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So small little town kind of nestled between the mountains and it's a huge rock climbing hub. So a Lot of younger crowd and cool people. That's [00:03:07] Speaker A: a Hacky sack, I imagine. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Well, it's a hacky sack. Yeah. I tripped over a few hours [00:03:12] Speaker A: and Frisbee. [00:03:14] Speaker C: I do, I do like Frisbee. Okay. Yeah, very cool. We, yeah, I was fortunate enough to get to a bit of, of a road trip from LA up to Tahoe and down through like, and Yosemite and. But I didn't quite get over there. [00:03:30] Speaker B: You may have skirted the north of it, depending on the route that you took. But next time you do it, come up three, come up Highway 395. It goes right up the Owens Valley and you'll pass through like Lone Pine and Big Pine and, and Bishop. [00:03:42] Speaker C: Yeah, we wanted to that side because we were heading to. Through Vegas and then up and yeah, we wanted to go through Death Valley, but it was going to be insanely hot. So we ended up going down and around and via Grand Canyon. Anyway, long story short, which [00:04:00] Speaker A: is odd for an Australian to say [00:04:03] Speaker C: given [00:04:03] Speaker A: that it's always extremely hot here. [00:04:05] Speaker C: Yeah, very almost part of the world [00:04:07] Speaker B: actually camped just outside of Death Valley last night. [00:04:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Wow. [00:04:11] Speaker B: And it was, it was pleasant. I was actually surprised at how mild it was in Death Valley right now compared to, you know, what I was expecting. [00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:04:18] Speaker C: yeah, right. It's. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Weather's crazy at the moment, that's for sure. [00:04:21] Speaker C: What about the. Tell me. We will get to photography very soon, people, I promise. This is just so interesting. Tell me about the van. What sort of van is. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Is a 2020 Ford Transit? It's a retired Amazon van, so I could very easily look like I'm delivering your packages. But I bought it from an auction in June and I've just kind of been slowly converting it. I'm while also living in it and like, you know, kind of moving out of my old apartment. So like in this new stage of my life, you know, my, you know, my son graduated high school, he's kind of off doing his own thing. He's still in Portland. So after I, you know, at the end of November, I'm heading back up to Oregon to do my Oregon coast workshop and then also to spend the holidays with him before I head down to Death Valley for a month and do my workshops there. So yeah, I'm just kind of slowly building it out while living in it. And I'm on my friend's property, has 90 beautiful acres in the foothills of the, on the western side of the Sierras, nearest like 25 minutes from Yosemite. And it's just, you know, I'm. Yeah, I'm so fortunate, and I feel so grateful for where I am in life and the people that I have in it and the opportunities that are being created for me. I'm very, very grateful. But, yeah, it's. It's been great, you know, it's. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:05:40] Speaker C: yeah, [00:05:41] Speaker A: yeah. I mean, Justin has a. Has a Mercedes Sprinter. He. He lives a bit of van life when he can. It's something that I've always toyed with the idea of. Years ago, I thought about just taking my camera gear and, you know, getting a van and just disappearing, but I'm too much of a city kid, you know? [00:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I've. I've done versions of this before for extended periods of time. And then, you know, I've. I've traveled in vehicles extensively for a long period of time. I'm built for this kind of life, you know, it's just, you know, people. I mean, I don't know, it's just, you know, it's. It's not the easiest thing being a professional nature photographer. You know, it's a pretty crowded field, and, you know, I'm. There's a level of unwillingness on my part as to, like, how much I'm willing to do to build my business. So instead of, like, kind of compromising on that end and doing things that I don't want to do in order to, you know, make my ends meet, I just made my ends shorter. So instead of, you know, paying $2,000 a month for an apartment, I pay $300 a month for a van payment. And, you know, I get to travel around and at will and just blow around in the wind wherever, you know, I want to go. And, [00:06:54] Speaker A: yeah, [00:06:55] Speaker B: I think that's kind of life. That's kind of life I'm built for. And I have my cat with me. He's three years old, and he's doing wonderfully. He loves it so much and so much better than being stuck in an apartment full time. [00:07:05] Speaker C: Is it. Is it. Greg's a cat man. I'm not so much a cat man. I got a dog. We [00:07:14] Speaker B: can boot him off. [00:07:16] Speaker C: I'll just. I'll see myself out. I [00:07:18] Speaker A: don't think I can fit five cats and me in a van. [00:07:20] Speaker C: Greg's got 15 cats, 20 cats or something. Five. Is it [00:07:25] Speaker A: five at the moment? [00:07:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah, [00:07:27] Speaker B: that'll be a little tight. [00:07:28] Speaker C: Is it tricky with a cat in a van? Do they want to run away? You know, like when you get to a new place? I thought cats would be very sort of Exploratory or. Yeah. Is that ever a problem? [00:07:41] Speaker B: You know, it's. It's been a process of me learning how to trust him and, you know, just basically kind of like, trusting each other. My first couple of weeks, I was definitely like, if he got more than five feet away from the van. No. You know, and just, like, really trying to keep my eye on him constantly. But like I said, for the past two months, we've been on the same piece of property, and I've just been so focused on building the van and getting as much done as I can before winter sets in that I haven't even left the property. Like, unless. Unless it's to run errands. I'm 25 minutes from Yosemite, but I haven't stepped foot in the park because I'm just. And. And honestly, like, the property that I'm on, there's no reason to leave it. It's absolutely stunning and gorgeous and beautiful. So once we got there, you know, he kind of started exploring a little bit further. Like, he'd go over into the neighborhood, and I didn't like that. But basically, you know, it's gotten to the point now where he wakes up really early. He'll wake me up, and I'll just let him out and I'll go back to sleep. And he has free roam evening. And he comes back. You know, I've. I've made it a point to feed him, like, a really good dinner at night, so there's no way that he's going to miss his favorite, you know, evening dinner. He comes back just after dark. I shut him in. And when we were down in Texas, we were actually in a town, and he was in the van without being let out for five or six days. I did try to take him out on the leash, and that seemed to more stress him out than anything else. But every time, you [00:09:03] Speaker C: know, [00:09:04] Speaker B: I could tell that when he was in the van, like, he was kind of, like, you know, sick of being in there, but he was always calm, you know, slow blinks. Greg knows the language. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:09:12] Speaker B: you know, he was. He. He was comfy. He was fine. He was. He was. You know, he was content. But then as soon as we left Texas and we landed on some public land, you know, out in the middle of nowhere, I let him out. And, yeah, you know, he knows the van is his safe space. He knows it's his home. He knows it's where his food is. He knows it's where his person is. So, [00:09:30] Speaker A: yeah, [00:09:30] Speaker B: you know, if he's not Exploring. He'll just like, come lay in the van with. When. Even when the doors are open and everything. It's just, you know, it's his house and so, yeah, he doesn't go too far. [00:09:39] Speaker A: It's interesting, isn't it? I know we're not talking about photography, but it's all related, I promise. I've seen more and more people on social media that, you know, have van life or RV life or that travel or even people just take their cats out on a lead, exploring the world just as they would a dog. It's, it's. It seems to be something that people have finally kind of gotten their head around that actually you can, you can train cats, you know. [00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:10:04] Speaker A: it takes a very different mindset to training a dog, that's all. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an [00:10:07] Speaker A: exercise and frustration. But, yeah, he's not, [00:10:10] Speaker B: he's not, he's not down to hiking yet. But I do, I, you know, take him on some short walks, like to viewpoints and stuff in a cat carrier. And then once we get to the location, I'll let him out on the leash and just kind of let him test the grounds. But he's still skittish of people, which I get, honestly, let's be honest. So, yeah, no, he's, he's adjusting super well and he's just. He's my best friend and I'm so glad that I have him in my life for this, this, this new chapter. [00:10:35] Speaker A: They're great listeners, that's for sure. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Let's get back on track with photography. As much as I could talk about cats all day, [00:10:45] Speaker B: I'll try [00:10:46] Speaker A: to bring [00:10:46] Speaker B: as much as possible. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. That'd be great. But before we do that, we did have some questions we're going to ask you before we, before we said hello to people, but I think we've just. I think we've just covered some great stuff. Justin, do you want to say good day to some people in the chat? [00:11:02] Speaker C: I do. And there was some glitchiness on our system. So if you're listening and you haven't chatted yet, throw something in the live chat because I'm trying to see. It was saying no one was watching before. Now it's saying people are watching. So I just want to know if you're out there. Let us know if you can hear us. Philip Johnson. Good morning, Paul. Good morning, Tristan. Good to see you. David Mascara. Hey, all Pacific Northwest. Should be some familiar scenes. David Mascara is from San Francisco. Yeah, great street photographer and more. Rodney Nicholson. Good to see you. Lucinda from Mount Gambier. What are you doing there? What's up? [00:11:36] Speaker A: Like a creators conference? I think a music creators conference. [00:11:39] Speaker C: Okay. And Philip Johnson in Katoomba. Felt like it dropped in on your conversation. Might have. Maybe the. Maybe it didn't start at the right time or something. I don't know. We've been having tech issues this morning, but we, we get through it. We do what we can [00:11:54] Speaker A: do. [00:11:54] Speaker C: But if you're, yeah, if you're listening along, throw something in the live chat, let us know what's happening and. Yeah, let's get into it. [00:12:00] Speaker A: All right, let me roll with the question that I was going to ask you before we started talking about cats and I just forgot about everything else in the world. Tj, you know, you're, you're a fine art, nature and landscape photographer. That's. And, you know, without pigeonholing you, what is it that differentiates a fine art, nature and landscape photographer from your run of the mill landscape and nature photographer? What is it that differentiates that and what is that crossover process? Like [00:12:35] Speaker B: I say, I think the short answer is marketing. Fine art, nature, It's a marketing term. But I think if you were to dig in, into it a little bit further, I think it comes down to intent, right? Like, you know, there's, you can, it's, it's, you know, when you look at photography, you know, it's a, it's a visual language, right? And if you look at, if you think about it artistically, you know, you can communicate feelings, thoughts, emotions, concepts through the visual language of photography. But you don't have to do that, right? You can literally go outside and take a, a pretty picture, right. That doesn't necessarily say anything about you or your relationship to the place. It's kind of just like a, I was standing here at this time and enjoying it, and I took a, you know, I took a photo and, and this is it. And, and there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, there, there can be so much more to photography than just taking a pretty picture. And that's kind of, you know, in terms of my business. Like, you know, I'm, Yeah, I'm a nature photographer. That's my, my job is running a nature business. But I photograph whatever. Like, I will, like, you know, I like going to New York. And when I go to New York and practice street photography, you know, it's, it's me getting in touch with my spontaneous side. Because when I'm photographing nature, there's a Lot of. It's very deliberate. There's a lot of intention. There's a lot of thinking. There's a lot of cerebral stuff. But street photography, you know, I feel like one of, like, the keys to unlock with street photography is. Is the lack of the thought and just the spontaneous reaction to things that are happening. Right. So it's. But there's a. There's. I think that the jump, I guess, is kind of, you know, when you're interacting with these things and then when you're choosing your photos and processing them, that you're trying to communicate something more through the visual language of photography, whether it be the composition, the shapes, the color palette that you chose, the light that you chose. And that's not something that, like, I'm thinking about in the field. I just photograph whatever, you know, I. Most people don't, or most people are surprised when they hear that. My favorite type of light to photograph as a nature photographer is direct midday light. It's just. It's, you know, it's harder to do. I have an ebook titled there's no Such thing as Bad Light. Because it's true. You know, it's like direct midday light is still valid light. It's just different. It's harsh. So you can't photograph it the same way that you would soft light. You have to change up your approach. So I think, yeah, just really, you know, kind of putting that intent in, you know, I. My, you know, the. The reasons that I go out into nature are for peace and serenity and simplicity, meditation. And I feel like since I hold that in my heart and I'm photographing authentically, and then, you know, the decisions that I make on the photos that I choose to process and the way that I processes them, that's what they communicate because it's all in line, you know. But there were periods of time in my life, you know, before I kind of had an understanding of the visual language of photography and even what I wanted to say. And that's the thing, like, a lot of people don't know what they want to say. And, you know, that's kind of what my business is based around, helping people find their. Their why and what they want to say and then how to say it. But, yeah, you know, there was certainly periods of time where, you know, it was just like, hey, here's a picture of a waterfall. And I'm grateful that I got to be here. And, you know, I spent. I had a really good time, and it meant a lot to me. But, you know, the photo itself didn't necessarily convey anything beyond. Here's a pretty picture of a waterfall. So making that jump into a little bit more intent behind my compositions, the photo I choose, photos I choose in the way that I process them. I feel like that that's when it becomes less photography and more art. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:32] Speaker C: How do you, how do you take those first steps? For those of us that, I don't know, don't, don't necessarily have that thing that we're trying to say with our images. You know, we're making images, the images are getting better, there's something there, but I don't know what I'm trying to say, that's for sure. How do you even begin that journey to figure that out? [00:16:58] Speaker B: Curiosity and introspection. You know, you have to want to, you have to want to know what makes you tick, why you go out and photograph beyond. You know, like, I think, you know, when you're like, hey, if you ask people why do you photograph like, oh, I want to bring the nature, you know, I want to bring, you know, I want to show people what's out there or what they're missing, or I want to bring this to people looking at it on a screen or in a gallery, wherever. Have you. Hold on, I lost my train of thought. The question was, how do you make that jump? And I said curiosity and introspection. Yeah, so it's, you know, but so a lot of people, you know, they, they do that, but they don't really know why beyond that. Like, so I, I think, you know, what I do in my one on one mentorships and you know, whether it's with a nature photographer or a not nature photographer, the core problem seems to be the same is that people feel like they don't have a voice, they don't know what they want to say and they don't know how to say it. So what I do in those situations is, you know, we distill things down. It's like, what are, what are the themes running through your life? You know, what are your values? And then, you know, kind of digging into that side of thing and under. Trying to understand how you can use the visual language of photography both in the field and in processing to connect to that. So it's discovering what you want to say and then discovering it. And those, I think those are the key. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Yep. I think we've lost, we've frozen there for a second. Sorry, [00:18:41] Speaker B: I think we might be dropping off. [00:18:42] Speaker C: Yeah, we lost the Internet there, but we're [00:18:46] Speaker B: back, We're Back, [00:18:47] Speaker C: but thank you. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, we're back. We're back. We're back. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Okay, that makes, that makes sense. But it's, it's still, it's still such a. I don't know, [00:18:57] Speaker B: it's very nebulous. [00:18:59] Speaker C: Nebulous. Like it's, it feels like a mystery to me still. Yeah. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Even [00:19:03] Speaker C: though [00:19:03] Speaker B: it can [00:19:03] Speaker C: be, yeah, [00:19:05] Speaker B: it can be very abstract, Right? [00:19:07] Speaker A: Yep. [00:19:08] Speaker B: And you know, I had a, a mentee that we just finished our, you know, our 10 week mentorship and, and she came in just kind of like confused and not knowing, you know, not knowing what she wanted to say. She knew that she wanted that she had more to say. She knew that she had. There's a disconnect, but she didn't feel, had an identity or a voice. So we literally just started like, okay, well what are the themes going through your life? You know, like, you know, you know, is it, or what are you going through right now? Is it grief? Is it sorrow? Is it happiness? Is it joy? There are decisions that you can make when you're photographing and when you're processing to communicate those things. You know, the color blue communicates a different feeling and emotion than the color orange. Right. You know, so coolness and warmth, those communicate two different things. You know, high contrast and you, and you can do that. You know, you can take, take a single photo and process it in different ways. And they all, even if you can't articulate, you know, what the feeling is, they all feel different. Right. If you process something with high saturation and high contrast, that's going to feel different than if you were to process it. Like maybe high key and low saturation, same photo, but they feel different, they communicate something different. So just kind of like, you know, I think what we started with was her, you know, kind of distilling things down and then us finding containers that she can put her photos into. And we kind of just went with that. We're like, okay, well these are your, these are your important containers. These are the things that are, you know, the values, the themes, the, the concepts, the emotions that are important in your life. Like, let's start putting photos in these containers. And she didn't have a website, so I was like, you know, get yourself a website. Because all she had is Instagram, which is just, just kind of like a catch all. It's a bucket that you throw everything in, right? But on a website you can have galleries and you can have different ideas and, and of start putting things into different containers. You know, start to understand A little bit more. So I think it's, you know, it's, it's, it's all going to begin with the willingness and then, and the curiosity. I think curiosity is the basis for creativity. So if you remain curious and you're introspective about it and vulnerable and you're willing to face, you know, the, the things in your life that maybe you typically ignore, like those are things that you can explore with photography and with a camera. And that's kind of how, you know, that's part of the artistic processes is using the camera as a tool to get in touch with your inner self. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. We had a guest on a couple of months ago, very famous Australian lands wildlife photographer Steve Parish. Just celebrated his 81st birthday actually the day before we interviewed him. Phenomenal body of work and amazing history. But he talked about creative purpose in a very similar fashion around discovering what your, what your story is, what your, what your vision is, what it is that you're trying to communicate through image making. I'm going through a bit of a renaissance myself in as a photographer and I'm really curious to understand a little bit more about something you wrote in one of your articles about giving yourself permission in that blog. Permission to suck on creative confidence and finding your photographic voice. You started the removal of self judgment and pressure requires giving yourself permission. And in my situation, I finally gave myself permission to be the artist that I always wanted to be as a photographer. And that completely changed my outlook on what I was doing. Talk to us a little bit about how that, about giving yourself permission, how you define it, how you teach other people that you're mentoring, what that means. [00:22:45] Speaker B: You know, I think it's we, we, you know, we're humans, we all carry judgments about other people and especially about ourselves, you know, and we carry the judgment of other people on ourselves. Right. And, and that can dictate what we do with our work. You know, we might not do something because either people aren't gonna like it or let's say, you know, we, we really wanted to swap a sky. People might not do that because they think they're gonna get raked across the coals. And let's be honest, they probably will. It's the Internet. It's the Internet. But you know, it's, you know, giving yourself permission is just kind of like letting go of all of that because you know, the judgments and you know, and if you're not giving yourself person like those are all bounds to a box and that's, that's not where creativity thrives. Creativity doesn't thrive when it has rules, when it has pressures, when it has expectations. So, you know, for me, giving myself permission is literally just being like, I'm going to do this, and I don't care what anybody else thinks. Like, if it's, you know, it. It might not be something that I keep doing, but, you know, the, the point of, you know, the. The creative journey, like, it's. It's not some linear path that you just kind of jump on. You start walking. Like, you know, there's. There are branches. You know, just think of. I envision myself. You know, you can envision it different, you know, different ways based on who you are. And visualization, like, can really help. Like, I envision it, you know, like, kind of like my. My creative self as a giant ball of knotted yarn or spider web, right? So there are these points that kind of connect everything else together. And then sometimes it's a ball of yarn where if I'm trying to untangle a friction or a frustration, if I pull on one area, it'll tighten in another area. So it's kind of like, you know, trying to navigate all that. And if you visualize it as a path, you know, just kind of like walking this path, and there are all these side paths that you can take, right? So you take a side path and it might be exploring, I don't know, like wood textures. And you do that for a little bit and you're like, you know what? I feel like I've explored that long enough. I'm gonna get back on the path, continue on. And then you take another side path. So, you know, it's not something that you jump on and you have this goal in mind. You know, it's called the creative journey, not the creative destination. And I think of photography not as, you know, I think of the tool or the camera not as a tool to take photos, but as a tool to explore the world around me. And that word explore is deeply important to my creative or my creative process because that gives me the permission to explore beyond, to do different things, to try different things, to ask myself the question, what if, you know, like. And I'm, you know, by. I've always been a contrarian, and I've always been like, you know, anti authority. So when people are like, you know, when I. When you hear rules, I'm like, I'm going to be the first person to break it. So when people are like, no, always use a polarizer when you're photographing the forest, I'm like, okay, well what if I didn't? And then what if I didn't turn into me being in the redwoods and there was a, a rhododendron tree that has really shiny leaves and if I polarized it, it would just blend into the background. It didn't stand up. But if I didn't polarize it, those leaves shined and they almost looked like the tree was made of metal. So I took a shot that was polarized and I took a shot that was unpolarized. I used the unpolarized shot for everything else, but then I brushed in the unpolarized shot of the tree and made it stand out against its elements. Right? People are like, you know, only photograph waterfalls on overcast days. Like, what if I didn't? And beyond that, what if I photographed waterfalls in direct light? And some of my favorite waterfall shots that I've ever taken were taken with direct light. And I'm like, okay, well what if I, you know, photographed this water and fall in direct light? But I stacked on, you know, 15 stops worth of neutral density filters and did a 10 second exposure of this waterfall in direct light and I got a photo that I really enjoyed. In fact, I'd been to that waterfall many, many, many, many times and there was never a shot of it in my portfolio until I took a photograph of that waterfall in direct light. So giving yourself permission, it just, it, it kind of releases the chains to your creativity. And if you just. The more that you care about what other people think about your art, the more that your art is going to say about them than it will about you. So being able to explore, being able to just, you know, kind of, you know, in cameras, they're simple machines. It's three settings, right, and a lens. So you could, you know, there's, there's not a lot of like, necessarily like, leeway in terms of like, what you can do with the camera, but when you pair that with, you know, giving yourself permission and then asking yourself those what if questions and seeing how weird you can get with your photography and pushing your camera into like all these different settings, you know, it's like, oh, no, don't raise your ISO above 100. I'm like, I have shots in my portfolio that were taken near 20,000 ISO. Sure, I can't print them, you know, bigger than that, but that's not the point. You know, the point was, was that I, I didn't, I wasn't like, oh, I'm not going to engage with this scene because it's a 20,000 ISO. Like, no, I'm going to engage with the scene and I just have to engage with it at 20,000 ISO. Right. But my view of photographs is, you know, and this also comes out of permission too. Giving myself permission is that I give myself the permission to not have to work on every single photo that I take. You know, sometimes photos are only meant to exist on your memory card. Sometimes photos are a stepping stone to a future photo. Sometimes, you know, like these, these, you know, the 200 works in progresses that I have in my works in progress folder in my hard drive, maybe that was their purpose. They serve their purpose is just go that far. So it just allows me to just like kind of like engage with the world around me fully without chains, without judgment, without expectations. And, you know, that's, I find that that's when my creativity really flies. [00:28:36] Speaker C: I, I, the you mentioned like the, the camera as a tool to explore. And that's something that we like, we fundamentally believe here. That's, that's where the name for this podcast come about, that, that having a camera as, as part of your life can enrich it and make it better. Take you on journeys you wouldn't have gone on, get you up early for a sunrise you would have otherwise slept through, and meet people you would have never met. Just, it's, it's, it's definitely a core part of what we do. But the thing that I was getting stuck on there, where I get stuck about, you sort of like, don't care about what anyone else thinks. And I always get stuck, not necessarily whether people will like the photo or not, but I get stuck thinking, why would anyone care about this photo? Particularly with my personal work. Whereas, like, I come from a background of doing work for clients, so they cared, they cared enough to pay money for it. It was really important to them. And then when I've moved away from that, I feel kind of lost because I'm like, well, I like this photo. But why would anyone else care about this photo? It's not someone they know. It's not a destination that they're really fond of that they want to have on their wall or anything like that. So why would they care? And I don't know how to get past that. Have you ever felt like that? [00:29:57] Speaker B: A little bit. But it's. Why do you need them to care? [00:30:01] Speaker C: Well, exactly. I don't know. [00:30:03] Speaker B: So, so this, you know, and there's, and there are, you know, there are understandable reasons for it, like, you know, validation, you know, and if you're a professional, like they're, you know, you, you know, for me it's like I, you know, it's my job. This is my full time job. This is how I, you know, feed my cat and my son sometimes. I [00:30:20] Speaker A: love the order [00:30:21] Speaker C: mainly, [00:30:23] Speaker B: you know, he's 18 now. He has to, to fend for himself. [00:30:26] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:30:27] Speaker B: I just throw him the scraps. No, he's, he's a great kid, but, you know, it's, it all comes down, you know, like I need people to care about my work if I want to continue doing things for a living. And luckily, you know, I've been around for a bit. I've built a name for myself and a reputation and I think, you know, based on what people tell me, it's the fact that I don't care if people like it and that I am doing what I want to do and you know, in my own way that I feel like is something that makes my work unique and stand out against, you know, the work of others. That's what draws them in. Right? But so, you know, there is, there is there, there's a, there is a, a desire obviously to have people connect to your work, but I don't need that. Right. Like, in fact, this past, you know, these past two years have been some of the most challenging times in my life. And I haven't updated my website since probably 2021 or 2022. And you know, I was rarely posting on Instagram. I was photographing all the time. I just wasn't showing it to anybody. Right. So. Because that's, that's what it, that's what photography is to me. Photography, you know, my time spent in the viewfinder. And like, I don't look at the back of the screen. I'm not like doing like the, you know, using the LCD on the back. I need that private little viewing room where it feels like I'm the only person in the world existing, right? And to me, to me, that is, that is the essence of photography. That is where that is photography to me, me is that time spent in the viewfinder where, you know, you know, looking through the viewfinder, the world melts away and I enter that flow state and the only things existing in the world at that time are me and that subject and that moment of light and that moment of time and, and that's all I need, right? And if I get photos out of it, they're like postcards from it, they're like gifts, but they're never the goal, right? Just spending time in the viewfinder I've, you know, and I. I give this, you know, in. In anybody listening to this, you know, try it. Go out and take a photograph without a memory card in your camera and see what it's like to give up the Pavlovian aspect of photography where when you push a button, you get a treat. You push a button, you get a treat. You push the button, you get a treat, Right? What if you removed that? And what if you just focused on loving the process and loving the engagement and enriching your life and, you know, building relationships. Like, I think of, you know, like, all these. I think of them as friends, you know, just like where I show up at a, you know, some random spot on a random river, you know, it's not some, like, you know, photo destination that's pinpointed on a map. And I see light hitting a tree just so. And I'll spend time with that tree in my viewfinder, exploring it, getting to know it, learning its structure, learning all the different. You know, these leaves are fluttering this way. These leaves are fluttering this way. And if I go back to that river on another random day, I'm gonna look at that tree, because that tree and I have a relationship. It's my. It's my friend, right? So my goal as a nature photographer isn't really necessarily to, like, bring back all these photos. It's to build as many friends in the world around me as I can. And it doesn't have to be nature. Like, you know, I. I spent half an hour with my film camera in New York City photographing a pile of trash bags. Because it wasn't just a pile of trash bags. It was folds, it was cur. And it was in dark, right? So it's just getting hit with street light. So it's just like, you know, and I've never seen the photos. Like, I have 30 rolls of film to develop that I might not ever develop. And I don't need to develop them because I already got what I needed out of it. I got that time spent in the viewfinder. I enriched my life. I walked away a more enriched person, more calm person. And even the middle of New York City, I was in that flow state where nothing else existed because I was pointing at a pile of trash bags and exploring its folds, increases and twists and turns and. And all that stuff. So, you know, the camera. The camera is just. It's. It's a. Just reached. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Yep. Frozen again. Sorry, [00:34:19] Speaker C: guys. No, he was right in the cusp of a. [00:34:22] Speaker A: I know, [00:34:23] Speaker C: right [00:34:23] Speaker A: on the [00:34:24] Speaker C: painting that Perfect idea. Ah, damn. He'll be back. He'll be back. [00:34:27] Speaker A: He will be back. You know what's interesting as. As TJ was talking. Oh, you're back. Sorry we lost you for a second. I was just thinking. TJ sometimes I try to encourage Justin to. To go to a. You know, to go out and take photos with just one camera and lens, you know, because often he takes three or four of everything. I can't imagine him leaving [00:34:48] Speaker C: an. [00:34:49] Speaker A: Imagine him leaving a memory card behind. It's been drilled into him. After 10 plus years of. As a wedding photographer, I'm sure he wakes up having nightmares and sweats of, I left the memory cards behind. That would be every. Every wedding photographer's nightmare [00:35:05] Speaker C: is a couple of moments. [00:35:06] Speaker B: But it could also be very freeing, right, if you. If you do that and you're able to, like, you know, access that point where you're like. And you're like. And then you realize that you get the same feelings when you're looking through the camera. Whether or not you have a memory card in, like, that's. That's information that you can use, right? That's. That's something that you can grab onto and be like, all right, you know what? [00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:35:25] Speaker B: maybe it's not about the photos. Maybe it is about my relationship and my existence in this world and me building intimate relationships with these things, because that's what life would be on. It doesn't need. It doesn't need a photo. The photos are nice. They're great to have, you know, especially as a professional. You know, we need things to sell and market with and all that kind of stuff, but it's not the be all end, all right? And, you know, and I don't know, it's. It just goes back to the permission thing, like when you're able to just, like, kind of like, let go of that expectation and that. That pressure to have a photo, to bring something back, you know, it's. It becomes less. It becomes less transactional, and it's more communal. And to me, that's where freedom lies in the creative process. And, you know, good to your point, like, you know, kind of going out with, you know, one lens, like. Like, you know, there's, you know, I have. I have different tools that I use. Like, I use my iPhone a lot for photography, and that feels a very specific part of my creative process, where it is about casualness, where, you know, I have an Instagram account where it's just square photos or square crop black and white photos taken with my iPhone, processed in Snapseed. And they're not the greatest quality. Like, if you zoomed in, they're tortured to hell and back. That's not their point. Their point was, is that it's a casual relationship, you know, like, I'm not getting up my camera with a memory card in it, because once I do that, you know, my camera with my memory card, that's my serious tool. That's where I make art, right? But once I do that, these photos are my memory card. I have to take them back, put it in my computer. I have to put them in Lightroom. I have to go through them at the call them, I have to keyword them, I have to work on them, I have to post them on social media. They have to go through and, you know, thank everybody for, you know, commenting, commenting on my photo. And it just. It gets put into the process. But sometimes I just want to take a picture and let it fly and not have to, like, you know, so comments on that Instagram account are turned off. I don't really share it with anybody. It's just a place for me to be creative in a casual way. And I have my film cameras that, you know, that touch on my. On. On the. On the romance of film. You know, that's how I started with film. So, you know, there's a. There's nostalgia there for me. There's tactility, there's. There's the romance of film and the chemistry and how all of that works and how it's like this ancient technology and it's still, you know, completely, you know, invalid. And then the latency of, you know, like I said, I have, like, 30 rolls of film that I probably will never develop because I don't want to spend the money or the time developing them, Right? But the photos are there, you know, once I pass them on to my son, if he ever wants to. If he ever wants to develop him, he can. And then, you know, I have, like, a. A side of me that is based in. In play and experimentation and that fulfills that need. So I have all these different facets of my creativity. Because, you know, sometimes you might go out and you just might not feel like photographing, right? You just. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:38:04] Speaker B: but maybe you want to. Maybe. Maybe it's that you don't want to photograph in, like, some serious, deep, contemplative way. Maybe you just want to have fun. So that's where the playing experiment comes in. Or maybe you don't want to do that at all. Maybe you just want it to be casual. But you still want to engage with the world. So that's where my iPhone comes in. So, you know, I've built all these different facets of my creativity that feed my creative self, depending on what I need. And, you know, I just kind of pick whatever one I'm feeling at the moment and I run with that. So, yeah, yeah, like, heading out with one lens like that, that is kind of an exercise in that you're heading out with a film camera or just your iPhone or, you know, that's how. How many different ways can you engage with the world around you through a camera? And. And what does each thing bring you? And, like, once you're curious about that and introspective about it and you dig into it, you kind of. You start to discover things and you start to answer things and, you know. Yeah, [00:38:54] Speaker A: yeah, 100 agree with that. You know, it's. I find nowadays, given that I've worked so hard, especially this year, at training myself and pushing myself to be a visual artist, if I go out, even with. Even with just my phone in my pocket, I find myself seeing compositions and light and opportunity without even having a camera in my hand. You know, that's. That's kind of where I've gotten my brain to. In terms of thinking about all of the elements that. That I use when I do have a camera in my hand, that I'm just naturally doing it, you know, and sometimes, oh, shit, I wish I had my good camera, but otherwise I'll pull out. Yeah, the iPhone and. And go with it from there. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all valid. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it's what works for different people as well. You know, you've got to find that. That mechanism that triggers that in yourself. Really keen to understand a little bit about where this all began for you, the creative side of your life. You know, rolling back the clock a bit, looking at, you know, your upbringing, you know, were you raised in a creative family? Did you have creative mentors? You know, when did photography come into that element of it for you? Tell us a little bit about where it began. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is on the east coast of the United States or near the East Coast. People get upset if you call it the east coast, but it's more east coast than Midwest. Everybody's like, that's Midwest. Like, it's not even mid, and it's not even west anyway, you know, I grew up in a rural area, and my, My. My formative years were spent outside wandering the forest. Right. Like I was rarely inside, I wasn't a video game kid. I was outside getting dirty, riding dirt bikes, climbing trees, swinging on vines, getting lost in the forest. And then once I, you know, graduated high school and, and, and college, you know, worked in the culinary industry, I was also big into snowboarding. I'd been, you know, I started snowboarding in 1990 when I was, you know, 10 years old and, and that became my life. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna move to Oregon where I can snowboard all year round. So I did, I moved to Oregon and you know, I just kind of fell in love with the Pacific Northwest and hiking around Oregon and. But when I was in culinary school, like, I always knew, like, I always felt that I had something to say artistically. Like even when I was like in, in middle school or you know, like, you know, my, my younger years, I'm like. But I didn't feel like it was painting and I didn't know what it was. And when I found photography, I was like, I think this might be it. But it was when I got a camera for culinary school because I was working, I did an, in an apprenticeship. So I had to go to school full time and work full time for four years. And my job was a class. So I worked in a, you know, a golf club with a chef who like helped me follow the, the, the, the out. The. The program outlines as set forth by the, the you know, American Culinary Federation, which is like the governing body of cooks or whatever. I don't know, that's all hoity toity stuff. I don't care about that anymore. But you know, it's a program that in order to graduate this school I had to fulfill these requirements. So I had to take photos of my, the food that I was making. So I, I bought a camera and I went to like, and I spent so much money on a camera, there's like 200, which at the time I was like, oh man, this is a good camera, right? Never, never, you know, thinking of the fact that, you know, like fifteen years later I'd be buying a six thousand dollar rig. [00:42:29] Speaker C: So [00:42:29] Speaker B: times have changed. But you know, that was, it was, you know, it didn't have interchangeable lenses, it just had one lens that zoomed in and out. But I fell in love with it. Like I fell in love with looking through the viewfinder. And at that time in my life I was going to like a lot of punk rock and hardcore shows. So I took my camera with me and I started experimenting and playing. I Was doing multip multiple exposures back then. Like, you know, I do one shot like blurring all the lights and drawing all over the. And it was film. So I draw all over the film with, you know, a long exposure and then I take a flash shot of like, you know, one of the band members and you know, kind of like making like a little bit more of an artistic shot of the band. And that was kind of like my introduction to photography and I just really enjoyed it. So I started, you know, taking it out, snowboarding and skateboarding with my friends. And then when I moved to Oregon, I didn't know that like there was a nature photography industry. I knew that Ansel Adams existed. Right. But I didn't know that they were like, you know, there was a whole industry with workshops and tutorials and, and this is back in like, you know, 2008, 9, 10. So it's definitely not what it was, what it is now. But there was still, you know, there was like Nature Photographers Network. There were like all these websites, there was a community. And I, I was a hiker. Like I moved to Oregon, I was like, I just started hiking, but my camera came with me on those hikes. And then soon enough it became, you know, instead of it like me going on a hike and taking my camera, I was taking my camera out and hiking while I went to go take photos. So it kind of like it started to switch a little bit. Yeah, but you know, that, that has its, you know, dangers too, where it's like, you know, I'm only gonna go outside when I'm taking photos and like photography and you know, you know that cookie when I pushed the button that became the goal, you know, like I'm gonna go to this place and take a picture of this thing rather than just, you know, so it was like I was going out into nature before it was, I was going out into nature and photos were happening. But then it became I was going out to photograph in nature. What happened on the side? So it kind of flip flopped. And when I realized that I kind of like, you know, set myself back on the course and just realized that the whole point that I got into this and, and what I truly value about of it is, is being out in nature. Right. And like now, you know, this is my full time job and I understand that it's a luxury that I get to go to a beautiful place and not pull up my camera for four or five days because I don't want to. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:44:35] Speaker B: I just want to. I just want to acclimate I want to exist. Like, I don't need to just show up and start creating and, like, taking from the landscape and making pictures to, you know, bring back home. And I get. And I know that's a lu. So, you know, it's. I don't know. I think I've gotten a little sidetracked from the question, but. But that's kind of how it all started. [00:44:55] Speaker A: That's how we, [00:44:56] Speaker B: you know, and living in the Pacific Northwest, you know, I don't. I wouldn't be the photographer I am today if I didn't move to. To Oregon. You know, just the diversity and the. The. The accessibility to really beautiful areas. And while I was initially relying on that beauty in order to make photographs, like, you know, I was able to stay true to myself and. And start learning, you know, how to become an adaptable photographer and learning that I can make. I can make photos anywhere. Even a pilot of trash bags in New York City or, you know, a Costco parking lot or, you know, last year I was, you know, when it was raining, you know, I'd be up till 4am and I'm photographing leaves off of my deck under street light. So it's like, it's not. It doesn't have to be that I was going somewhere pretty to make. [00:45:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Make photographs. I could just make them wherever because I just kind of built my. My vision to do that. [00:45:46] Speaker A: Yep. And do you think that that's. That's a part of what helps a person to elevate their craft, where they go from? I'm going out to do something. I'll take my camera as the side quest, you know, and then you go, well, I'm going out to do photography. And the side quest is now the other thing, whether it be walking in nature, walking city streets, whatever it may be. But do you think that, you know, eventually we reach a point where neither of those things matter because they're just one now? It's just part of your life that [00:46:20] Speaker B: you [00:46:20] Speaker A: go out, you do this thing, you'll have a camera with you no matter what. You know, it's not like that either one is the purpose anymore. They're both the purpose. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And I've been, you know, and I think people struggle with that sometimes. You know, I think it's gotten better with. In recent years with, you know, people like me and other people kind of just talking, you know, like expectations for conditions like, you know, you. You know, you have a shot in mind. You're gonna. You're gonna, you know, and I Get it? I totally get it. Like, no, like, I know that this is, this is my job, this is my profession, right? And I know that, you know, other people, they, they might work, you know, nine to fives in a, In a stressful environment, and they only get to go out on weekends. And when they go out, they, you know, they wanna, they want to bring something back. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's important to, to let go of those expectations. And, you know, even if the conditions didn't line up the, you know, like, oh, you want to go photograph a beautiful sunset on the, on the, on the coast, but you get there and it's just socked in, right? And you're let down because you, you're not going to get the photo that you wanted. I think, I think that's something to pay attention to, right? You're still in a beautiful place with an expensive piece, Piece of camera. Camera, expensive piece of gear. And, and not a lot of people in the world get to do what we do, right? Not a lot of people in the world get to go to pretty places or own expensive camera gear or go to pretty places with expensive camera gear, right? So, you know, just understanding our privilege that, you know, that we get to do that to begin with and being grateful for that and understanding that, you know, what? Like, yeah, the conditions didn't line up, but I'm still filling my heart and I'm still feeling my soul and I'm still, you know, engaging in an exchange of energy with the world and the landscape around me. Like, there's, that's the value, right? Like, at least for me, like, like I said, you know, the, the photos that you get out of that, like, they, they can be gifts and postcards from the experiments and not the goal. And if you're able to make that switch, it's just, it's a lot more freeing and it allows you to just go out and be like, you know what? Like, because sometimes, like, I know for me, like, sometimes, like, I just, I don't feel like photographing. And that's fine. Like that, that's fine. But at the beginning there was a lot of guilt with that. It's like, like I should be photographing. I'm a professional nature photographer. I'm somewhere pretty. Like, I should, like, as soon as I show up, I should, like, open the car door with my camera in hand and immediately start snapping, right? So, yeah, no, I think, you know, I think, I think, you know, like I said, giving yourself permission and just Letting go of the judgments and the expectations and all that and just understanding that this is. You're getting to do something special whether or not you get a photo out of it or not. That's. That's where the world value lies. And if you can do that, then they kind of become one. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Yep, [00:49:00] Speaker C: yep. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Great, [00:49:03] Speaker C: great. Did you want to. Yeah. Check in with the chat. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:06] Speaker C: Because there was a couple of good comments earlier when we're talking about all sorts of other stuff from way back, but a couple of good ones from Lisa Leach, amazing landscape photographer. She says being a photographer is not what you do, it's who you are. [00:49:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yep. I just. Yeah. [00:49:25] Speaker C: She also says, I see rules as suggestions and guidelines. Not one to use on traffic cops, not one to use on traffic cups. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Oh. Like if you get pulled over and you say no, I just see rules as suggestions. [00:49:37] Speaker C: Oh. Oh, I get it now. I get it. Yeah. So she. Okay, for photography, it's cool for photography, but not for [00:49:43] Speaker A: not [00:49:43] Speaker C: cool. I'm in trouble. Okay. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:45] Speaker C: And Glenn Lavender says every photo we take is a self portrait. It. That's deep. That's a. I saw that one pop up. I've been thinking about that on and off throughout this conversation because that's been up for. It's been sitting there for about half an hour and I keep looking at it thinking, [00:50:01] Speaker A: yep, [00:50:03] Speaker C: what. What do they say about me? That you're a trash bag. I'm [00:50:12] Speaker B: a trash [00:50:13] Speaker A: bag. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker C: I should also quickly just say that this show was brought to you by lucky strap. Luckystraps.com that's us as well. As well as podcasting, we also make leather camera straps here in Bendigo, Australia. So if you've been searching for a leather camera strap or any camera strap, but leather's just really, really comfortable and nice, go to Luckystraps.com and check them out. That's what helps keep the lights on, helps keep Greg's cats fed and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, if you like use [00:50:41] Speaker A: code Greg at the checkout, you'll get a. You'll get a nice discount. [00:50:44] Speaker C: That is true. That is [00:50:46] Speaker A: true. [00:50:47] Speaker C: I'll [00:50:47] Speaker A: look after you. [00:50:50] Speaker C: Tj. You're so. You. You somehow went from a real job to. To becoming a full time landscape photographer running a landscape photography business, which I assume I'd love to find out more, but has. I'm assuming it has many sort of facets of what you need to do to. To pay the bills. Different, different ways of, of making a living within that landscape photography business. How did you make that jump, like what, when did that plan kind of come together in your mind that this was going to happen and then how did you make it happen? [00:51:27] Speaker B: Well, the jump happened very sloppily and not very well prepared, which is just my, my M.O. apparently. I like to say, you know, I tell people when they ask what do I do for a living? I tell them I'm professionally unemployed because that's kind of what it feels like is where like, like, like yeah, there are parts of, you know, being of doing what I do that feel like work and that I don't enjoy like a lot of it based around social media and stuff like that. But you know, I've, I've built my life to, to be able to handle the amount of work that I'm willing to do. You know, I've, I've worked my ass off my whole life. I, you know, I worked in restaurant industry working, you know, 12 to 14 hours a day. Like at some points I had two, you know, a lot of points I had two jobs, two, you know, a full time job and a part time job where I was literally like waking up at 5, 8, you know, 5am traveling to one job, getting off at 3, traveling to another job starting at 4, 4:30 and then working until 11, 12, midnight, riding you know, the train back home, getting it up and doing it again the next day and then the day after that and then the day after that. So I've worked my, I've, I' done my time but I'm in my, my era where I don't want to compromise on what I do in order to make ends meet. I'd rather shorten my ends. Right. I think I, I don't know if I said that earlier but. [00:52:48] Speaker C: So [00:52:49] Speaker B: Instead of paying $2,000 a month for an apartment, I, I pay $300 a month for a van. Right. And that allows me a little bit more freedom. Like I can turn down jobs or I don't have to like, you know, worry about selling prints or taking on some kind of, of, you know, job or that I don't want to take on. But it hasn't been easy. You know, when I was working in the restaurants there was, and in my, and I was also kind of like growing my name and growing my brand in the, the nature photography industry. There are times where people were reaching out to me for private workshops, like, hey, can you do a private workshop with me next week or next month? And I'd be like, well, I gotta ask for time off and see if I can get it, and a lot of times, like, I couldn't get the time off right. And I'm just, man, like, I would make just as much in these three days doing photography and teaching this person as I would in like two weeks working my day job. And then, you know, so there's kind of like this, like this battle of myself where I'm just like, man, this is like, you know, my, my job is now starting to get in the way of my future and what I want to do. And there came a point the company that I was working for got bought out and all of my stocks and my stock options got liquidated. So they, you know, they basically paid me out what they were worth at the time. And, and that gave me my nest egg to, to start, you know, kind of like. And, and the thing about nest eggs and being professionally unemployed and starting a, a new career with no plan, that money goes really quick, like really quick, especially when it's not coming in. Right. So, you know, it was a bumpy start. And that wasn't helped by the fact that, you know, I, I had been doing some photography workshops in the Columbia River Gorge with my friend Ted before I quit my job. So, you know, I knew, and that was where most of my income came from, was running these workshops in the Columbia River Gorge. And my business was built on a one legged table, a one, one income stream. And I knew that wasn't a good thing. Right. That's not, that's, that's very risky. Whiskey. So I knew I had to expand my income streams eventually. Well, I put in my two week notice and with a week left, the Columbia River Gorge caught on fire and basically burned to the ground like it was, you know, really dry summer. And a kid with a smoke bomb threw it into the forest and it ended up burning like some of the most beautiful land in the Pacific Northwest and the place where I earned 99 of my income. So, you know, I, I did what I had to do. I worked odd jobs and, you know, got back into restaurants and you know, but I, I never gave up on my dream and I just kept pushing. I kept pushing and then, you know, so I, during the next few years, you know, so that was in 2017 when that happened. And then during the next few years, I expanded my workshop options. I figured, you know, like, it's still a one legged table, but this is the easiest entry. Like, you know, I can't do workshops in the gorge anymore. I'll start doing them on the coast, I'll do them in Death Valley. I'll in Olympic national park, still a one legged table, but expanding my options so that I was able to run more than like two, you know, like four workshops a year. Like I would do like a five day workshop and then a shorter two or three day workshop in the spring and then a five day workshop and then a two or three day workshop in the autumn in the gorge. So being able to add in Death Valley and like these other locations, I was opening myself up to more opportunities to be doing these workshops. And then Covid happened. So. [00:56:24] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:56:25] Speaker B: so I've like basically had to start from ground zero, like you know, three times essentially, you know, the first time and then right after the, the fire and then after Covid. So, you know, you just kind of do what you need to do. You know, I invest in myself. You know, when I have extra money, I try to, you know, build a new income stream. Like I bought like a, a printer that I had no business owning. A 44 inch printer that was, you know, the size of my living room. Because I wanted to grow my, my print business and I didn't want to rely on a, you know, having to like, oh, somebody ordered this print, but I've never printed it before. So I have to order test prints, which means I have to pay for the test prints and then wait for them to come in the mail. And then once I got them in the mail, if I had to make adjustments, I had to order another test print. I was able to get that immediate feedback, that immediate ability to like fulfill their order. And, and that was also very freeing. And you know, in Covid, Covid actually like I, I came out of COVID a stronger, a stronger business person. Like I was like, all right, well you know, that sucks, but what can I do, you know, So I pivoted to more online, you know, tutorials and online presentations and built presentations that I give now and still give for, you know, for cash money. I created tutorial videos which I need to create. I have ideas for new ones because that's one of my next goals, right? It's like I'm still heavily into the workshop income stream. That's my main income stream, but I'm also doing one on one mentorships with people, which is what I value more because it's, it's, it's, it's just more, it's, it's basically helping people find, find what I found with photography and, and becoming their own artists. Right. And, and you know, so in 2027, kind of once I get through this transition of my life where I'm building out this van. Once I'm settled into my van and I'm, you know, kind of just living the life, I'm going to start more passive income stream things. So I have some ideas for video tutorials and things like that and maybe some video downloads. Downloads and licensing of videos. I know licensing is kind of the, the, the way of the, the dinosaurs. But, but yeah, you know, it's. I, I've been, I've been maintaining and you know, it's, I kind of, it comes down to what I call the three P's. Patience, patience, passion, patience and perseverance. And if you have those three things, I don't think that you could make it as a professional nature photographer. Especially if you don't have those three things, because when the times are tough, you need to rely on the passion and the perseverance and, and you need to be patient. And you know, when things are good, like, you don't really need all three of them. You need the passion, obviously. But you know, time, times get leaned, things happen, economies, pandemics happen. You know, it's, you're kind of at the mercy of it all. And in nature photography, it's, it's, it's a luxury, you know, it's not. So, you know, when, when the economy starts to go downhill or, you know, there's, there's a war and you know, the. When, when the markets are uncertain, people aren't spending money and they're not spending money on nature photography or nature photography workshops. So you kind of need to have, you know, a little bit of a. And just instead of wallowing in your unfortunateness, you'd be like, okay, well what can I do now? How can I change this? What can I, what are my options? So, [00:59:32] Speaker A: yeah, [00:59:32] Speaker B: yeah, [00:59:33] Speaker C: if, if you could. So you've had to start over essentially three times. Kind of. If you could go back and give yourself a little bit of advice, 2017 or whenever it was, is there anything that pops to mind that you would tell yourself. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Work on SEO and mailing list. I [00:59:55] Speaker C: love it. [00:59:56] Speaker B: I think, I think, I honestly think that like, that's what it would be. You know, obviously, you know, it's, you know, save money and have a bigger nest egg before you do it and understand that, you know, money goes fast, faster than you think when it's not coming in every other week. And, but, but yeah, I think, you know, to my saving grace coming out of COVID and everything, luckily was SEO in my mailing list. You know, we, we think about, you know, like, I don't want to, you know, businesses. I'm not. I'm not a good businessman. I've made it work somehow. But, you know, we think about, like, the funnel, right? Like, we. The. The goal. My goal is to get everybody on my mailing list because that's where I have control over who I can reach. Without the interference of any algorithm or any. Any third party, I can reach them. And the people that sign up for my mailing list are my most engaged people, right? Like somebody that's following me on Instagram, like, oh, cool photo. And you know, they're gone in half a second, right? But somebody that signs up for your mailing list, they're invested. Like, they want to hear from you. You know, it's not some kind of, like, passive thing, like at the checkout where they're just buying a candy bar because it's there, you know, so. So that. That is my goal. So I, you know, I'm not the best at it, but I try to use social media and all these different things, like, like this podcast, you know, when I go to conferences. Like, my goal ultimately is my mailing list and visiting my website, because that's where I get to turn them into paying customers. And so, yeah, I think really. And. And that's. And that's the part of, you know, being a professional that people don't talk about a lot is. Is that side of things, right? Because you're not just a nature photographer. You're. You're a marketer, you're an accountant. You're. You're all of those things. And it's. Some of it sucks. Like, I hate account counting, and I usually have to spend hours and hours and hours at the end of the year getting my books caught up because I just ignore them throughout the, you know, the first. The first 12 months of the. Or the first 11 months of the year. But, you know, it's. It all. It's all part of the game. And, you know, you have to be just willing to do whatever you're willing to do. [01:02:04] Speaker C: Well, speaking of what you're willing to do, you said earlier when you're talking about sort of, you know, instead of just trying to make more money, you can also shrink your expenses. Is the other. So that you don't have to do things that you don't want to do. I think you mentioned something like that things in your business. Is there anything like. Is there. Are there things that, I guess, whether it's other photographers do or things that you've Seen in the industry where you're like, I know that would make money, but it just doesn't sit well with the way, you know, with the way that you want to run your business. Is it that or is it more just you don't want to, you know, if the work isn't something fulfilling to you, you try to avoid taking on that. That work. [01:02:46] Speaker B: It's, it's more the second thing. Like, you know, and like, yeah, I don't, you know, I don't judge people for, you know, the, how they run their businesses. You know, like, they have different goals, they have different situations and, and, you know, just different lives or different people. But for me, it comes down to like, you know, if it's, if I don't need the money and it's, and it's not fulfilling, then I'm probably not going to do it. Right? So. And then also, you know, it's, you know, just like, you know, when I, and I thought about this when I was, you know, doing, you know, I was working a regular job and when I was doing photography, it's like, you know, time is our most precious asset. It's the one thing that we have that we can never get back. And [01:03:23] Speaker A: yeah, [01:03:24] Speaker B: the more time that passes, the more expensive our remaining time comes, right? The more, the more valuable that time is. So it's a, it's kind of like a, A diverging value. Value. Right. We lose time. But it's so, so as this happens, you know, I'm just thinking like, like, if I'm going to be spending time, my time, like, I want to spend my time in ways that I enjoy, in ways that bring me value, in ways that make me fulfilled and not, you know, cooking burgers over a grill from 9 to 5 or, or whatever it is. Right? Whatever. Whatever your job is. And that's not to say that, you know, that, that, you know, like, like obviously, like I'm, I'm. I'm a special case. Like, I, I'm like, I know not everybody's like me. And you know, there's. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, doing it my way, you know, and there, there it comes with its challenges. But again, like, I'm willing to compromise on my comforts. I'm willing to compromise on my situations. And as long as, like, I'm able to put my time where I feel is valuable and I, I enjoy it and it allows me to do what I'm doing, then that's, that's what I'm gonna do. So, yeah, I Think it's. Yeah. [01:04:34] Speaker A: And I think again, that comes back to giving yourself permission to be that person. You know, because we're, we're often pinned into a, you know, into a work life balance that we necessarily didn't sign up for, but needs must, you know, and, and there's, you know, we feel that we need to conform. There's family pressure, there's peer pressure. All of those sorts of things push us into these, these streams of what we think is the right thing to do. But giving yourself permission to follow a creative life is probably one of the bravest things you can do because it does mean that you have to be everything. The buck stops with you. You have to be the accountant, you have to be the marketing manager. You have to be, you know, the tech support for yourself. Sometimes, as frustrating as that could be when things go wrong. Wrong. So, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting concept. [01:05:24] Speaker B: Or you need to be willing to work on your business enough that you can pay people to do that. Right. Like, you know, you might, [01:05:30] Speaker A: that's, [01:05:30] Speaker B: you know, like, I know people that run, like, you know, they run 15, 20 workshops a year. And like I, I wouldn't want to do that. Like, I love teaching workshops, I love working with people in the field, but I'm not, I don't want to grind myself and like have most of my, my, you know, my free time, like doing 15 to 20 workshops a year, that's really impactful. Like you got to travel for those. So that doesn't leave a lot of room for your own personal travel and your own personal time on the side of those. Like, you're there for work, you're there to teach, and then when you're done with that, you're going back home tending the family, tending your responsibilities. And then like you're just preparing for the next workshop and then the next workshop and the next workshop. And I, I don't, I don't want to do that. Like, I'd rather, you know, like do one on one mentorships. And of course they're not as, you know, they're not as profitable. Like, you know, workshops are profitable. Like I could spend five days and make, you know, or 10 day, I spend, we do two, five day sessions of workshops in Death Valley. And that's like a big significant portion of my income for the year. And it's 10 days of work, right? [01:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:27] Speaker B: But if I do a one on one mentorship, like, it's not pulling that kind of profit, but that the one on one mentorship is what I would rather do. So they're, they're just more fulfilling for me. So, you know, I think it's just, you just got to find your own path. Like what are you willing to do? What are you willing to compromise on? And [01:06:42] Speaker A: yeah, [01:06:42] Speaker B: you know, like, not everybody, like I haven't shout powered in a week and I in a hole in the ground a couple days ago. Like if you're not willing to, you know, I'm willing to do that so I can, you know, I can make these decisions. Right. If I didn't want to do that then like maybe, you know, and if I, you know, own a home and you know, have a brand new car and, and not buy clothes at the, at the thrift store, then yeah, maybe I needed to run a couple more workshops or get a full time job or, you know, run my business differently. But again, like, you know, I'm a, I'm a, you know, I'm a, a. I'm a dirt ball. I'm fine with it. Like, [01:07:13] Speaker C: you [01:07:14] Speaker B: know, I'm, I'm living, I'm living my best life, you know, me, my cat in my van, traveling around like, and living in beautiful areas for as long as we want. We're, we're dandelion seeds. Right. So it just feels very freeing. But it comes with its costs too, for sure. That not everybody's willing to make. [01:07:28] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. But I love it. I think it's, I think it's an equation that everyone can look at, you know, and it doesn't always have to balance out to, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, live in a van and in a hole. It can, it can just mean giving up some of the, the things, giving up a little bit of the chase that people sometimes fall into, you know, like I need that, I need that new camera body or I need that new car or whatever it is. You give up a little bit of that and that means you might have to give up a little bit less of your time trying to pay for that stuff. Yeah. It doesn't have to go all the way to. Yeah, to [01:08:09] Speaker B: in the hole. [01:08:10] Speaker C: Yeah, to shooting in a hole or you know, being a dandelion seed. But it can, it can certainly free you up a little bit. I think it's definitely the way I try to live is, is not, not on the edge and not constantly chasing your tail, you know? [01:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:26] Speaker C: Yeah. And [01:08:27] Speaker B: you know, and I have, you [01:08:27] Speaker C: know, [01:08:28] Speaker B: and I have, have a son too. So, you know, like there's There was a, you know, a responsibility and a desire and an obligation to, you know, make sure that he was taken care of and that I was present in his life. So, you know, it. And that wasn't easy. And, you know, that obviously created, you know, friction between his mother and I, but we made it work. You know, it wasn't. It took a while for, you know, her to adjust to me being like, hey, I'm going to be gone for two weeks on this workshop or on this trip or whatever. So, you know, you know, and, and that can be looked at from, from many different angles. But, you know, like, [01:09:03] Speaker A: yeah, [01:09:03] Speaker B: at the end of the day, like, I have a wonderful relationship with my son, and, you know, my son's proud of me. And whenever he turned 18, I was like, what do you think about your dad? And he's going to be living in a van. Like, what do you think about that? He's like, I just think it's weird that you didn't do it sooner. I'm like, all right, [01:09:20] Speaker C: all [01:09:20] Speaker B: right. So, like, you know, it's like, I have a wonderful relationship with my son, and it's like, you know, it's gotten to the point now where it's less a father son dynamic and more of, like, friends. And, and I'm grateful for that. You know, it's like, yeah, I'm, you know, maybe, maybe I wasn't in his life every single day because I was off, you know, running, you know, gallivanting around the Oregon coast or Death Valley for a week. But the time that I spend with him, like, you know, I, I, I'm proud of the job that I did as a parent, and, you know, the relationship that he and I have helps me find comfort, that I, I did it right. [01:09:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:58] Speaker B: And [01:09:58] Speaker A: I think, I think there's a lot of. A lot of good that we do for kids when we choose to pursue unusual careers. You know, we're not just clocking into a 9 to 5, you know, never see daylight kind of lifestyle. You know, we're actually pursuing something that we're passionate about that's artistic, it's creative. And I think there's a lot to be said for that influence that we have over our children when we choose to pursue that sort of lifestyle. Lifestyle, [01:10:24] Speaker B: yeah. [01:10:24] Speaker A: You know, [01:10:24] Speaker B: absolutely. [01:10:25] Speaker A: You teach them that there's options, that they don't have to be penned in again, you know, that they [01:10:30] Speaker B: exactly [01:10:31] Speaker A: choose their own path and make it work, whatever that. And [01:10:34] Speaker B: it, you know, it's, it's harder for kids, you know, now than it ever has been. You know, when you look at just like the, the way the world is going and the economies and, you know, here in the U.S. you know, the, the. The minimum wage is like, you know, hasn't. Hasn't been updated in like 15, 20 years or something. I can't remember. But it's, you know, it's, you know, the. Our. Our. My, you know, my son isn't being set up for success by, by society and by the economy, you know, like, so, you know, I feel like I've. I've taught him the important things in life and, you know, that it's, it's not about, you know, like, you know, the expectations. Like, you graduate high school, you immediately jump into college, you get a career, and then you work the 9 to 5 and you work until you're 60 and, you know, you get the house and the garage and, you know, all these things. And it's like, you know, you don't have to. Have to. You. You don't have to do that. You could. You. And he's already talking, much to his mom's dismay. He's like, he's like, I think I'm just going to move into a van. She's like, absolutely not. I'm like, [01:11:32] Speaker C: yeah, maybe, [01:11:33] Speaker B: maybe not right now, but, you know, [01:11:37] Speaker A: one day, [01:11:38] Speaker B: if you ever want to in the future, just. Just talk to me. Don't tell your mom. Yeah, you know, like, I would. I would rather live my son live fully and authentically than, you know, feeling like he has to jump into a career. Like, you know, we, like, he's, we just had the conversation around tuition for school. Know, the student aid program in the United States was, was basically gutted. So he couldn't get the, the. The money that he needed for school, so we had to take out a private loan. I'm just talking to him about the numbers, and I'm like, dude, this is the, this is the biggest financial decision that you're ever going to make in your life, and it's going to impact you for the next 25 years at least. Like, don't make this lightly. Like, if you want to take a gap year to think about it, like, you know, you're only going to be this age once you have the rest of your life to chase a career, to ch. To be the adult. Like, you're going to be this age once, you know, go. Go join the Peace Corps, go, go do a farm, like a work study down in like, you know, Peru or something. Like, go live your life and you Know, you don't need to take the traditional path. But, you know, like I said, like, I've always been a contrarian, somebody that's, you know, willing to make those, those choices and amends and his mom isn't. So we kind of, you know, we have disagreements there, but, you know, he made his decision and he's, you know, kind of split the middle and he's getting cheaper credits at a community college and then he's going to get his degree later. And, and I know, like, he, like, I, I, I value, like, he, he joined like, the mountaineering and hiking club in high school and he went to trekking in Nepal. And, you know, he, [01:13:04] Speaker C: oh, cool. [01:13:04] Speaker B: He, he, he's, he seems to be following in my footsteps a little bit, so I'm a little proud of that. [01:13:10] Speaker C: Does he, does he have a career goal in mind yet or, or is that still coming, like, becoming clear as he moves sort of forward through college and things? He's going to figure out it out. [01:13:20] Speaker B: He, I don't know if he wants, if he knows exactly what he wants to do, but he wants to work in for, he's always liked, you know, other cultures and other languages. So I think he wants to kind of like, work in foreign relations in the government in another country. So he's majoring political political science. [01:13:40] Speaker C: And I was gonna, that's what I was gonna say because that's where it becomes really important, where it's like, if it's a job where you have to have a degree, degree, that's very different. You know, whereas there's something, you know, I was listening to a podcast the other day from a very good marketer, and he, and he runs a big, a big agency, and he was like, we don't, we don't look at anyone's degrees anymore. We don't, we don't care if they have a degree or not. We give them, they come in, we interview, we give them some tasks, and if they're good, they're good. We have no interest as to. It's almost for some people that they have come in, they're like, it's. The degree's almost, almost a sign that they might not be the right fit for what we're trying to build at the moment. But that's for marketing, that, that's for a private business. Whereas, yeah, foreign relations, government, that they're probably absolutely going to require some sort of degree and you have to do it. [01:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, and it's just, you know, and I've been Having these conversations with them through the years, like, you know, just think about if this is what you want to do and if this is what you want to spend this really significant, you know, sum of money on and that you're going to have to live with through the rest of your life. Like, you know, this isn't a decision to make life lately. So, you know, I've kind of primed him for this decision and just for him to make the right decision. And you know, I think financially, for at least the situation that we're in right now, he made the right decision to not go directly into the university and pay, you know, the amount of money that he would have had to pay for credits that he can get for cheaper somewhere else. [01:15:05] Speaker C: This, this is so far off the regular topics of this podcast. But it's exactly why I started the podcast is I haven't. So do you think, do you think that. Because it's a bit different here in Australia, but there is still in Australia, I don't think our university fees are quite as high, but you still basically can defer payment for a long time. That's, that's correct, Greg, isn't it? It's like, you know, you can, you can sign up. Yeah. [01:15:34] Speaker A: The higher education contribution scheme is still a [01:15:37] Speaker C: thing that, [01:15:38] Speaker A: you know, you basically pay back later when you pay tax. [01:15:41] Speaker C: Exactly. And just comes out. But do you think it's like, that's a lot to ask of an 18 year old to make that kind of financial decision at that age? If they don't have a decent support network of people, kind of explaining to them the commitment, the financial commitment that they're making. It almost makes it very easy to spend a lot of money. It'd be like giving an 18 year old a credit card with a hundred thousand dollar limit and just being like, hey, careful. But here you go, you know, [01:16:11] Speaker B: like [01:16:11] Speaker C: it's a, it's a pretty easy way to spend money because it doesn't feel it's not coming out of anything right now. So it doesn't feel. Yeah. Do you think, do you think that at all? Like, is it kind of. I don't know. [01:16:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, I, I know so many people, myself included, who aren't doing what they went to school for anymore. Right. Like, you know, we change as people and especially, you know, 18 years old, like, you know, our number one, our brains haven't fully developed yet. You know, we can't, we can't rent a car, but we can spend, you know, 100 grand on school, right? Like for, like, you know, because, because we've been told that we should and we've been told that, you know, we need to decide what we want to do for the rest of our lives right now. But like, you know what, like, [01:16:54] Speaker A: but it happens even earlier than that. I know. You know, here I've got, my son is 15, he's in year nine in high school. And you know, at the end of last semester we had to go to a, like a parent student briefing about, you know, choosing subjects to align with the career of the future. It's like this kid's 15. Like, you know, even at, even at 21, I was scratching my head and bumping into things. I had no idea what I was doing with my life. And you know, these 15 year olds are being sort of asked to make these potentially, you know, life decisions about when, you know, my kid can't even work out how to keep his underwear clean for three days in a row. You know, like, me [01:17:35] Speaker B: either. [01:17:35] Speaker A: No, no, I don't either. Yeah, I'm a dirt baby too. But, but, you know, and on the, on the topic of, you know, social expectations or just expectations that are placed on us, especially once we, we, we hit adulthood, you know, do you see that the role of social media is influencing or heavily overhandedly pushing people to feel like they have to meet a certain criteria as a visual artist artist, that they have to meet a certain stream of activity [01:18:08] Speaker B: in terms of like their, their engage or like how much they're using social media. [01:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah, like, or how they use social media to, you know, because at the moment, you know, I think we're very seriously seeing how little social media actually does for photographers. Whereas it used to work the other way around. You know, social media used to be for photographers, especially things like Instagram and it's flipped. It's more like we're feeding it now. We're having to keep this up to keep it happy so that it promotes our work and we're just feeding the machine that sort of thing around photography. I'm having trouble putting it into a sensible structure considering what you were saying earlier about sometimes we just take the photo and we never take it off the memory card. Whereas expectations being placed on younger creatives is that social media is a young. Anyway, you can promote your work, you know. [01:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, [01:18:59] Speaker A: I [01:18:59] Speaker B: mean, I think, yeah, they're, you know, there's, you know, I think we may have, be, we may be all in the same age range where we've grown up within, you know, without the Internet, you know, kind of like during our, you know, our later formative years. But there are people, you know, most of the world at this point, like, we're in the minority. Like, most of the world has grown up in, you know, in the Internet age and the social media age at that. And, and I don't know, like, it's, I have strong thoughts on social media and it's, it's net negative impact on humanity in general. And just, you know, the way that, you know, it's, you know, I was just talking to somebody about this the other day, like, and I am grateful that my son, like, doesn't really use social media, at least not in the way that I did or the way that I thought he would. You know, like, he's, he's, he's still out hiking and living his life and camping and climbing mountains and, and doing all that kind of stuff. He's not on social media every day. He's not playing video games every day. Not, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just not the kind of life that I wanted him to lead. I wanted him to be a little bit more in touch with the natural world and in touch with himself and just like living his life to his fullest. But, you know, the, like, our brains haven't, like, they haven't evolved any further than when they originally evolved when we became Homo sapiens. Like, we still have the same brain, right? And when our brains weren't, didn't evolve to be able to handle social media and, and the information age and the, the attention economy. Like, you know, our attention, you know, we have very finite amounts of attention. You know, like, well, what did we have to worry about when we evolved? Food, water and shelter, right? And like, maybe the biggest numbers that we had to conceive of were like, about what, Like, I don't know, 20 to 30, if we were hunting a herd of bison, mason or elk or something, right? And now we're being, you know, bombarded with like 30 newspapers worth of information every hour. And there are companies that spend billions and billions of dollars learning how to get our attention and keep our attention. And, and just like the effect that that has had on the attention spans of humans, like, it's, it's evident and they've done studies and it's, it's so, it's so terrible. Like, [01:21:23] Speaker A: yeah, [01:21:24] Speaker B: yeah. Anyway, so it's, I, I, yeah, I, I, I hate social media. And my idea of making it in this world is getting to the point where I can nuke all of my social media accounts and my business won't suffer because of it. Right. Like, because my, I've built my SEO and my, my mailing list to the point where I don't need social media media. But yeah, it's just, it's, it's a, it's, you know, it's a show out there and it's just everybody trying to clamor over everybody else for, you know, a spot attention in the Spotlight for their 15 seconds of fame. They'll go viral for one post and, you know, they think they made it and then that fades within, you know, a week and they're right back to where they were. And there's just so much attention placed on the metrics of, you know, engagement and audience and followers and likes. And just like that validation that comes with it, I think it's, I think it's super unhealthy. So, you know, my, my, my hope is, you know, at least, you know, all I can worry about is myself and my son, right? So I, I hope he doesn't fall into that trap. And I know that, you know, I've, I'm so far out of that trap that I can't, I don't really need to worry about it, but I don't see it going anywhere good if we continue to go on this path. And, you know, just [01:22:38] Speaker C: the, the shift that, the shift that social media has caused in society, which, yeah, I remember quite distinctly because I remember what it was like when people were talking about, like, I had a MySpace page for my band. It was awesome. The page was awesome, not the band. You know, I had a MySpace page. And then I remember, I remember people talking about this thing face to face and it was already, you know, a thing in the schools in the States and it was when they were just starting to roll it out to people and we're in Australia, obviously, so it sort of was just getting rolled out and I think you even had to know someone, someone had to invite you or something to use it. At the point when I started hearing about it and I was still in school and, you know, it was sort of. And I, and I remember that and then I was, I was very much on the front side of like, social media marketing and things like, like that early on, and I've seen it all unfold in a near enough kind of history and in my life that it's very distinct. And I can't help but feel that AI is going to have a very, very similar, if not bigger impact. And Shift that. I'm not quite sure what it's going to look like yet because I didn't know what was going to happen. Obviously. I was way younger, though, to, you know, there was no way to know what was going to happen with, with Facebook. It was just a thing like, where you could connect with your friends and share stupid things where you were like, justin is feeling sad, you know, remember that? It [01:24:13] Speaker A: was just an advert forum page, really, wasn't it? You know. [01:24:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it was, it was just. Yeah, it was just. It was just a cleaner MySpace with slightly more robust tools. But, but AI. I don't know what impact it's going to have, but I just have this feeling at the moment like this, there's this surge in momentum with it. Everyone's talking about it. I was at an event yesterday and so many people are talking about it and they're, they're not as up with it as I am, but they're all asking questions about it. It's. And it's sort of. I don't know. Do you feel that and do you think there's going to be another big shift and will it be positive, negative? What, like, where are we? [01:24:56] Speaker B: You know, it's. I think it all depends what, what side of the coin you're on or, or how you use it. You know, I, I think, you know, number one, like, the genie is not going back in the bottle, right? Like, AI is out. Like, it's, it's. The, like AI infrastructure is only going to continue to grow and, you know, maybe there's a bubble right now and there probably is, but AI isn't going away and it's going to become part of everybody's life whether they want it to or not, you know, and so that's, so that's going to happen. But, you know, I think the way that it's going to change the economic landscape of the world, and I'm not an expert, you know, I'm not like reading studies and everything, you know, I'm just going off of, you know, my involvement and, you know, in my circles and my experiences. But I think that AI is going to change the world on par with the way the Industrial Revolution changed the, the world. I think it's going to be the AI revolution and where they're going to write about this, you know, this revolution and this change in the economic structure of the, the global markets and the globe, you know, the world in, in history books, because, you know, yeah, people are going to lose their jobs and what are those people going to do for money. And then you, you talk about you know, like when you look at like the trading markets and you know, the stock markets and everything like AI is already, already has their hands in trading markets and they can trade better and faster than 000 people. And you know, so there's just going to be so many changes and, and so many different you know, like sectors of employment in industries that it's gonna change the world. And like you know that's, that's another reason why like I'm trying to get mine now, right? Like I want to buy a piece of raw land. Like I'm living in a van where society is optional and I want to learn how to be self sufficient because I don't know what's going to happen in the world like you know, just based on you know, and then I'm admittedly very cynical but you know seeing the world where I was when I was younger, albeit through rose colored glasses and seeing the world where it is now, you know, albeit through my tainted, you know, cynical glasses, it's, it just seems to be devolving. Right. So you know, is there going to be some kind of like catalyst that kind of forces it in the other direction? Is AI going to solve problems that we as humans just didn't have the, in an intellectual capacity to solve, you know, or is AI going to be like our overlords where we're like what should I, you know, like there's a, there's a, it's like a YouTube skit or something. It's like you know when, when you use chat GPT for everything and like the people like they're just trying to have a general conversation but they're putting everything through chat GPT and then chat GPT goes out and they're just like they can't function. Right. So you know it's going to be, but it's going to be somewhere on that spectrum and you know we need to prepare for it right, like or not and you just roll with the punches. But you know I think there is going to be a, you know, in the next at least probably before or five years where we see some major economical impacts of the way AI is impacting the world. Whether it's you know, kind of eliminating jobs and you know, those people having to you know, know find ways to make money and, and who knows. Yeah, but it's, it's an interesting and a scary time in the world right now, you know, and many fronts with AI with you know, politics, with just everything. So you know, but hey, at least we got a, at least we got a car that can flip upside down and, and land on its, on its right [01:28:34] Speaker A: as well. Yeah, we [01:28:35] Speaker B: can't, we, we can't buy groceries, but we got that, you know. [01:28:38] Speaker C: Yeah, [01:28:38] Speaker A: yeah, [01:28:39] Speaker C: I didn't see the price on that thing. They didn't make that very clear. But I'll order one for sure. If it's the price of, the price of a Toyota Camry, I might get one. The thing I'm interested in on AI now after this, I promise everybody, we're actually going to have a look at some of TJ's images. We'll get back to photography. Thing I'm interested in AI, though, is how it's going to change the way people interact. Like you were saying that there was that sort of thing about people are interacting with acting essentially. That's no different though than when people were googling things in mid conversation. Whereas back in the day we used to just, you know, get drunk or whatever and just look at the stars and, and have these conversations. Now you just go, oh, I'll just check whether, how big is the universe or whatever, you know. Whereas we used to just talk about it for four hours and have no idea what would say anyway. But now you can talk to AI like it's like it's a place, person that's helping you or, you know, working through things with you and things like that. And I'm just, I'm wondering how that's going to affect people long term. Where, you know, do you start to lose meaningful relationships and things because you get, you get what you want from this, this bot. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't push back. It doesn't, [01:29:56] Speaker B: it just agrees with you. [01:29:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it gives you what you want, it gives you what you need in terms of whatever you're looking for. You're just seeking validation for something in your life or whatever. And it's like, yeah, your boss does not, you know, treat you well or whatever. And it's, that's what I'm worried about anyway. It's an interesting [01:30:14] Speaker A: same here. I, I fear that, you know, things like AI, I mean, and I think you use this term two, two sides to every coin that I feel like we're at risk of, of stalling our evolution at an intellectual level and a societal level, a level, because all of those critical thinking skills, those communication skills, those ability to empathize and read a room, all of those things will be lost. And it's like the example you gave where imagine if there's an outage of your AI agent and you have no capacity to fulfill tasks yourself, to find meaning and do things without this kind of, kind of this thing on your shoulder, this, this amorphous thing telling you what to do. And I fear mostly that the artistic side of, of humanity will be the one that is the greatest, that receives the greatest impact. Because all of a sudden it brings image making into everyone's hands except, you know, and almost to the exclusion of the folks that know how to create authentic art, you know, all of a sudden they become the minority priority in a negative way. Where do you see the future of photography when it comes to using a social media platform like Instagram? As I said, it used to work for us. It used to be a far more enjoyable experience and photographers flocked to it because it offered this accessible way to showcase your work and who you were. And now, now, you know, sometimes I'll come across a post that Justin put up and it was from two months ago and it's like, why am I saying this now? Why didn't I say it when Justin put it up? You know, we're online talking to each other all the time, you know, but it doesn't work that way for us anymore. Where do you see it's heading for visual creatives like ourselves? [01:32:08] Speaker B: Honestly, I have no clue. You know, it's, you know, like the. Even just, you know, in the past few years, the way that can people consume media has changed with, you know, the popularity of TikTok and Snapchat and you know, and reels and short form content and, you know, and we had precursors to all of that with, with vine, right? Like, you know, these really, really short form content things. And you know, I, I can't remember the specific numbers, but there was like a study done on like how, how long people look at a piece of art in a museum. And it was like way lower than you would expect. Like if you were to guess how long somebody looks at a art museum like me, I'd probably guess like I'm, I don't know, 45, 50 seconds a minute. It was like seven seconds in a museum, a physical museum, right? So, and then, and we're all guilty of it on Instagram, like how, how long do we really look at an image on Instagram, right? [01:33:05] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:33:06] Speaker B: 1, 2, 3 seconds, if that, you know, and then it's just, there's like our, again, our attention is just, it's being followed, fought over by these corporations with not good intent. Right? They all have ill Intent like they, there's, you know, the, the algorithms are designed to, to, to feed us divisive topics, rage baiting, you know, because that's what gets people to talk. Like, you know, I can't remember the, what it's called, but there's a, there's, it's, it's called something, but it's like the fastest way to get a correct answer on the Internet is to post the wrong answer. Because everybody just wants to correct you, right? Everybody just wants to tell you that you did something wrong. And it's just so, it's just like, you know it and that's what the Internet has become. It's like you post a picture of a puppy and there's going to be people, you know, fighting about politics underneath it or you know, how one puppy is better than the other puppy or cats are better than dogs. And they're going to be, you know, they're going to be rude to each other, they're going to be terrible to each other in these comment sections of like these, you know, rather, you know, innocent videos. Anyway, I, I could talk about that so much because, you know, this is where I feel like my old man boomerism comes out. Even though I'm not a boomer, I am of the cool generation. [01:34:16] Speaker A: Yep. [01:34:18] Speaker B: I, we are in the middle of the boomers and the millennials and we're just innocent bystanders anyway. [01:34:25] Speaker A: But we were influenced by a boomer generation, so a little rubbed off. It's okay. [01:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know, but it's like, you know, we're, you know, so whether or not, you know, and we've seen video, like, you know, people don't care so much about stills anymore. Like it's about video. It's about short form content. It's about, and it's, it's about getting people's attention. Right? [01:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:34:43] Speaker B: but there are going to be, you know, subse of people that you know and you look at, you know, they're even in the boomer generation. You know, they're, you know, Facebook is like the boomer generation, right? They still love their, their like bad memes and their, you know, their what the things boomers like. Right. And we're gonna, eventually we're gonna be the boomers and we're gonna, we're like, oh man, we're gonna be liking our still images while there's, you know, like, you know, 14, 15 year olds like you know, loving their a content videos. And we're gonna be like, oh, but we just want to steal a Picture, you know, so you know, it's the world, the, the wheels will continue to turn and you know, we just need to do our best to, you know, just find our own personal meaning and you know, and that's, you know, we can, we could, we can get caught up in all of that and like what's going to happen and you know, the terribleness of it all or we can just be like, you know what, like I'm just gonna worry about me and mine and I'm gonna do what I want and I'm gonna live life to the fullest and I'm going to make decisions that allow me to do that and I'm just going to take each day as it comes and be a dandelion seed and blow about in the wind and in holes and not shower for a week and you know, that keeps me happy. So it's, it's hard to say, you know, where everything's going to go and if I knew the answer I'd probably start doing it now just so I could be ahead of the curve. But, but I'm also probably not willing to do that. So you know what, I'll just continue my path. [01:36:03] Speaker C: Yeah, here's, here's a fun one. The. Speaking of demographics and generations and things like in terms of your following, your engaged following like your, I'm not going to say just the people that attend your workshops because there might be a bit of a monetary filter there where, but looking at say like your email list and what you know of those kind of people. Are there many young people getting into landscape photography now or is it a little bit of a kind of a hobby for us Older, older folk still is. Yeah that I'm interested in that like where, where's photography going or, or most people that are younger that are getting into. Because I've been to a few different photography festivals in Australia. One that's very much like an older. It's called the, the bright festival of photography. Very much older demographic. Like I think the average age would be well into the 50s, maybe even higher. Like late 50s probably would be fair. Very passionate people love landscape birds, macro portraiture, all sorts of photography and do it for the joy of it. Hungry to learn then I've been to a creative festive. I can't remember what sort it was. Ran lots of brands there and things like that. Lots of young people very heavy on short form video, you know, playing around with cameras and gadgets and things like that but very much on that sort of that skewed side of Things. It was very. Yeah, it was either like you're creating stuff for YouTube or Instagram basically, or Tick Tock, you know, not, not for to be hung in galleries or whatever you sort of photography side of things is. And I'm just interested to know if. Yeah. Is, Is that side of the photography world going to become kind of of a, a more niche hobby and practice? That, that's sort of something that an older person, I don't know has the time to do or are there still young people that are like, yeah, I love hiking. I'm gonna get a camera and just go out and, and make landscape images. I don't know. [01:38:14] Speaker B: I mean, my immediate answer, I know that I'm viewing it through those cynical glasses. Right. But I know that there are people like, you know, and, and, and this can be, you know, construed as cynical as well. But, you know, like, it seems like a lot of the younger crowd that are doing photography, they're doing film, they're going analog [01:38:36] Speaker C: because [01:38:37] Speaker B: it's, it's contrarian. Right. You know, to the digitally native world that they grew up in. Right. So, so there's, there's hope out there, [01:38:46] Speaker A: but [01:38:46] Speaker B: is it going to stick? Right. You know, like I said, like, you know, a week grew up with, you know, without the Internet and then we, we had the Internet, but most of the world grew up with the Internet and most of the world grew up with the short form content with Tik Tok, with Snapchat, with, you know, that, that, that's all they know. So, you know, there's a, it's, it's hard for us to kind of like really, you know, put ourselves in their shoes because we just, we don't, we grew up in a different age, but, but you know, I, I, the ro. The romantic in me kind of believes that there's, that there will be, you know, younger generations that are still into photography and into analog photography and into stills and, and things like that. But you know, like even, you know, when it comes to drawing and painting, I know more younger generation kids that do it digitally than pick up a palette with paints and a canvas. [01:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:39:42] Speaker B: you know, they're using procreate, you know, blender, things like that to like animate and 3D render and things like that. And you know, that's, that's just the world that they grew up in and they don't, they don't know any different. So, you know, there, there's an opportunity for people like us to, you know, kind of pass that on. Like, you know, My, My son, like, you know, he told me, and maybe it's changed since then, but when he got it, he told me it was the best Christmas gift that he ever received. Where I bought him a Pentax K1000, which is. I don't know if you know about the Pentax K1000, but, you know, [01:40:16] Speaker C: you [01:40:16] Speaker B: need millions of them. And it is like, it is the. As far, you know, aside from a pinhole, it is like one of the most basic cameras out there, right? Like there's nothing. There's not. It's all manual. The. It has a light meter that's powered by a battery, but it's all manual focus, manual, you know, everything. [01:40:37] Speaker C: Fun fact. It's probably the most commonly referred to first camera of all of the amazing photonics photographers we've had on this podcast where we asked them, like, what was your first camera? [01:40:47] Speaker B: And it's [01:40:48] Speaker C: K1000. Yeah. [01:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's because it's like it was the. It was the photography class, camera and, and school, right? If you took a photography class, like, they were cheap enough, they're bomb proof, and they made enough of them that, you know, like, they're just everywhere. So, you know, and, and that's what I learned on. I learned on a Pentax K1000. So I bought him a Pentax K1000. I had my Pentax K1000 refurbished and, you know, and, and resealed and, you know, cla. All that stuff. And we went out and we shot film together and then we developed it together and I hadn't developed film in, in such a long time. And I ruined like his first three roles. Oh, no. Careful. Yeah, but, you know, but, but that's part of the game, right? You're gonna screw up and you need to like that. That you just need to be willing to, to have those things happen. [01:41:37] Speaker A: But, [01:41:38] Speaker B: you know, right. Part. And part of me still dies because, like, we went to New York City and like, he, he shot like his first roll of film in New York. Ruined it. Anyway, still, I still. The [01:41:50] Speaker C: memories. The memories remain, though. That's what's important. [01:41:54] Speaker B: But, you know, [01:41:55] Speaker A: I figure your kids have got to have something to talk about in your eulogy, right? [01:41:58] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [01:41:59] Speaker A: They need some stories. [01:42:01] Speaker C: Some stories. [01:42:02] Speaker A: Analysis. Yeah. [01:42:03] Speaker B: He needs something to hold over my head. [01:42:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:42:06] Speaker B: Trevor. So I don't know. I. I think there's still hope out there. You know, I think, you know, [01:42:10] Speaker A: I [01:42:10] Speaker B: think there's still. And you know, and, and then as we go further in, into this digital world, and, and AI and stuff. You know, I think, I think there will be a, a value that is placed on Trevor. Says young person here, [01:42:23] Speaker C: young person here, 24, Trevor Vilinga. Perfect. [01:42:26] Speaker B: You know, and, you know, Trevor, Trevor actually took one of our workshops and it was a few years ago, so he was probably like what, 12? Trevor. But no, it's, but, but, you know, and, but, you know, to, to kind of like, you know, lean into your question, like, you know. Yeah, yeah. Most of my work workshop students are, are older. Right. But there are people like Trevor out there. There are, you know, there's my son out there. There are people that are interested in this. And I think, you know, there's going to be a value that is placed on, you know, things that are provably humanly created that, you know, that is going to have value that we don't maybe have right now. So, [01:43:04] Speaker A: yeah, [01:43:04] Speaker B: you know, I think there's space for it, there's room for it. You know, is it going to be what, you know, I'll see, you know, pseudo boomers want or envision? Probably not, but you know, [01:43:13] Speaker A: yeah, [01:43:14] Speaker B: living life and all we can worry about is what we do. [01:43:17] Speaker C: Yeah, [01:43:18] Speaker A: yeah. And I agree, you know, we've had guests on, younger guests, you know, Jonas, who we had on a couple of weeks ago, David Amel, who's very, very involved in, you know, digital content creation and they both shoot film. You know, they, they, it's, it's their creative escape from an overly saturated digital world is that these younger people, despite having access to, you know, phenomenal gear, they're choosing to, to step back and go analog and try to achieve something authentic that they created through chemistry and, and physics, you know, as opposed to, and [01:43:55] Speaker B: latency too. Right. Like in this world, in this digital world, we're, we're used to that immediate feedback. Like you were saying, Justin. Like, you know, it's like instead of talking about the universe, just Google it, it, Right. We can, you know, I, I, we can just, we have a world of information at our fingertips, which is kind of scary how many people don't use that world of information at our fingertips and just, you know, [01:44:13] Speaker A: yeah, [01:44:13] Speaker B: go about the Internet spouting things that aren't true and stuff like that. But I digress. But yeah, it's like, you know, there's, there's, you know, that latency of, you know, these younger people kind of coming in and be like, hey, I took this picture, but I'm not going to see it for a week or two weeks or a month. Or ever. You know, there's, there's kind of a, like a, I think there's, you know, we're human at the basis of it, so I think there's still a desire for it. You know where these were, these analog creatures, these bags of meat and consciousness living in this like, you know, in these digitized worlds that we just weren't built for. So I think there's something human about analog and about that tactility and that romance and latency that, you know, that we just desire as a species. [01:44:55] Speaker A: Goosebumps. Got a couple clip [01:44:56] Speaker C: that. Yeah, hopefully clip it. Trevor Linker says. Yep, I was 20 at the time of the workshop. Couldn't drink or rent a car, but I could take out a hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt. [01:45:09] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:45:09] Speaker B: they were happy to give it to you too. Trust me Trevor, they were happy to give you that and charge you the interest. [01:45:15] Speaker C: David there, Parker in the chat. Good to see you David. Long time, [01:45:18] Speaker A: hope [01:45:19] Speaker C: you're doing well. David's a wonderful photographer. He's a, what would you, what would you call him? Craig. He's a, he's done motion picture stills but also conflict. [01:45:29] Speaker A: Photojournalism. [01:45:30] Speaker C: Photojournalism, Long career. Yeah. [01:45:33] Speaker B: Amazing. That's some risky stuff. And I saw, I don't know a lot of the people, you know, different markets but my friend Brent commented earlier. Brent goes outside. That's Brent Clark, a wonderful nature photographer. Hey Brent, Hope if you're still [01:45:47] Speaker A: welcome. [01:45:47] Speaker C: Hey [01:45:47] Speaker B: Brett, thanks for coming. [01:45:49] Speaker A: Thanks like and subscribe. [01:45:50] Speaker B: He was one of my, actually one of my, yeah, smash that subscribe button. He was one of my first workshop, one of my first workshop students at all ever. So I've known for a while and he's really come into his own and, and he won recently. Won, it was in last year maybe the year before the Natural Landscape Photography award. So [01:46:10] Speaker A: he [01:46:10] Speaker B: is an award winning photographer and he credits me with all the of, of that because he took [01:46:15] Speaker A: one [01:46:15] Speaker B: workshop from me 10 years ago. Yeah. [01:46:20] Speaker A: On that topic, I noticed on your Instagram page you have listed yourself as a multi award boycotting photographer. Tell me about your relationships with photography awards. [01:46:30] Speaker B: I just don't think that they're healthy. You know I get their point. I think a lot of them are extract. Extractive. Extractive. Extractive to just creativity and you know, just the, the photography market. You know there are some out there that, you know, they just want to make money. They don't really care. But I don't know. I, I, I see, I see the, the value in it for Some people, it's not a value that really, that I have, but I've also seen the bad side of it where, you know, like, the results come in and, and people are like, oh, they just kind of want to give up. Like, I'm in a, a discord with, like, you know, a lot of other nature photographers, and they, there's a big ruckus around, around the, the results of the, the Natural Landscapes Photography Award. And, and I've seen some, you know, some people be affected by it negatively. And I just, I don't know when it comes. It's, you know, like, it, Art can create. It's subjective. Right. So you're putting this work out there, and you're giving a lot more weight to someone who has no concept of who you are, what you do, what drives you, what your values are. And they're judging you based on, you know, know, this piece of art. And then, like, if they, if they don't like it or this group of people don't like it who have different tastes, who have different experiences, like, then, you know, it's hard to not be impacted by that. So. I know. I just, I, I don't think that competition and creativity is healthy. I think, you know, there, there are avenues for feedback and avenues for growth and avenues for, or, you know, getting constructive feedback that don't need to be tied to some kind of award. Right. And, and before that, I used to have my profile, and I never saw anybody else have it. I was, I, I, I came up with it on my own, but I did see other people have it after. And I'm not saying they got it from me. I'm just saying that I'm the only person that I had seen at the time put Mom's Favorite Photographer Award winner in their Instagram profile. [01:48:33] Speaker A: So [01:48:33] Speaker B: I'm the winner of Mom's Favorite Photographer, and actually [01:48:36] Speaker A: that's all that matters. [01:48:38] Speaker B: Right. And I'm an idea guy, so I'll never execute it. But I thought of how funny it would be to have an actual Mom's Favorite Photography competition where it's, like, judged by her moms and you have to, like, join. You have to just submit your work on Facebook. And, like, they obviously don't know anything about photography. And, you know, first place comes with a, you know, a monetary prize, plus, you know, a dozen chocolate chip cookies baked by mom, something like that. I think you could be, then you could be a legitimate Mom's Favorite photographer. [01:49:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and get snacks and treats. I like that. [01:49:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Very conscious of it. An award winning photographer. That's all just marketing too. It's like, what award again? Mom's favorite photographer. I'm an award winning photographer because I won Mom's favorite photographer award. Anyway, no, [01:49:18] Speaker A: no one needs to know the details. [01:49:20] Speaker B: Right, [01:49:20] Speaker C: right, exactly. [01:49:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm very conscious of time. That time is absolutely flowing. We're coming up to the two hour mark, so we might move into final questions you've asked at the start of the show, I think before we even went live, how we came across you. Excuse me. And one of our past guests, Ben Mays, who's also a nature and wildlife photographer, recommended that we get you on board. And we are so very glad that he made that recommendation. So in that spirit, you know, if, if you were to recommend someone to take the hot seat and have a chat with us about their photography life. Life, their camera life, who would that be and why? [01:49:58] Speaker B: Well, just because he's staring me in the face. But I would say reach out to Brent Clark. He is, you know, I've watched his whole journey and he's really come into his own. Really a big fan of Brent. He's not just a great photographer, but he's also a great person and a great friend. My, and I'm going with people that mean a lot to me right now. So my friend Tara Workman, she's on Instagram as Tara in Abstract. Same thing. Like, you know, when I, when we kind of first started chatting, she was, you know, kind of just going through the motions and, and taking pretty photos. But she's really came into her own with her own photography. And she's also experimenting with using a lot AI, having an AI branch of not her photography, but of her artwork and using AI and creativity. Not that she's giving AI creative decision decisions, but using AI to kind of supplement her, create her creativity. And that's an interesting, that's an interesting intersection. And then I think another one that I would recommend is Beth Bulow. B U E L O W Huge fan of Beth. She is a great teacher. She took our Death Valley workshop. And she isn't a nature photographer first and foremost. So when I have people that aren't primarily nature photographers on workshops, they bring a perspective that is kind of fresh. And she was, and she was just exciting and like, you know, her work, it's, it's so experimentate. Experimentative. Experimentive. I don't know what the word is. I'm tired. But she likes to experiment. She, like, she, you know, giving yourself permission. Like she gives herself all the permission all the permission. And she just loves engaging with the world and things around. You know, she just uses a camera in really interesting ways. She does a lot of multi exposures. She's just really, really a really dynamic, dynamic person to talk to. So those will probably be my top three. [01:51:52] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you. I've made note of those and I'll certainly look them up and if I get stuck finding them, I'll reach out to you. [01:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. [01:52:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Incredible. Justin, do you want to talk a little bit about gear before we wrap up today's episode of the Camera Life podcast? [01:52:07] Speaker C: I do, but I thought before that I want to have a look at a quick. We've run out of time, but I want to have a look at some pictures. Would be best to bring up some of your images to CJ on Instagram or your website. [01:52:16] Speaker B: Yeah, Instagram's where I've put most of my recent work. But. But do know that a lot of the stuff on Instagram isn't like, it's. I kind of just crap it out. I haven't really finished them. They're kind of like works in progress. But. But that is the. The best representation of kind of like what I've been working on lately. [01:52:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And I. And I see, like, some of the stuff that you, that you post, you know, some of it will be in little sets, or it feels to me like they're in little sets, little vignettes, little themes from times of year or things you've been working on. And then. Yeah, like, other times it's just kind of, maybe not random, but bits and pieces coming about. Do you have, like, do you have themes, many themes that you're working on? You talked about walking down different paths, taking. Taking a little side quest and then coming back on the path. Have you got sort of five or six or ten or two things that you work on at once in terms of themes of photography? [01:53:17] Speaker B: No, not, not. Not right now, I think, you know, kind of I've reached this point in my artistic journey and my career where I want to present things with a little bit more intent behind them. So instead of, you know, like Instagram, it's kind of like a. Again, it's like a dumping ground. Right. So it's like, you know, none of these, like, they're. They're great pictures. I mean, I'm not saying the pictures are. That they're wonderful. They're great pictures. I mean, they're. It. They're pictures that I enjoy. You know, that could be subjective, but. But there's there's no theme necessarily to them. You know, maybe they have a, an aesthetic that I've been curating lately, but they're all kind of like they're not on my website because my website is a portfolio. So it has, you know, sections. So the thing that I've been working on for the past few years, which has been in ide is a collection called Sunlight Sonata. And it's going to be all kind of like again, I love shooting midday direct light, even the photos of the sun itself directly. So, you know, kind of like this evocative, really high contrast, really, really intimate light basically. But I didn't really know what I wanted to say with it. Like what was going to be the. What, what was that? I communicating. But I think I finally discovered that and I think it's just going to kind of tell the story of the last nine years of my life and the things that I've been through. Kind of like that one that is in the second row next to the dune. So it's the kind of looks like a out of focus cloud left. [01:54:48] Speaker C: Oh, this one, [01:54:49] Speaker B: that one, that [01:54:50] Speaker A: one. [01:54:51] Speaker B: So, so, so this is kind of like the stuff that I like to do. So I call that one phase change. Because again, like, you know, what I've been through in the past few years of my life, like I'm entering this new change in my life life. So I'm kind of like changing phases. But what this is is salt that has precipitated out of saline water in Death Valley. So the water was so saturated with salt that it couldn't hold this, the soluble salt anymore. So it started to precipitate out. And as I was photographing, so this is direct light on those salt flakes that are floating on the surface of the water. And you know, like I said, like, you know, there are only three settings on your camera, so how many. How can you change things up a little bit? So one of the things that I do a lot is photograph things out of focus. So when I photographed this, these, this out of focus, I was like, it kind of looks like a cloud. And I was like. And then the specks underneath it kind of look like rain. So if I did like kind of like a reverse focus stack where like I focus stacked it, but I didn't focus stack it the whole way and I left that top part like be like a cloud. So not only is it a physical, like a chemical chemical, a change of state, like a phase change where it's changing from the soluble salt to solid Solid salt. The. The rain cloud is also a phase change. You know, it's changing from. From a cloud into rain. And then that just kind of speaks to what I've been going through in life. So there's. It kind of comes together from three fronts, and it's not the greatest photo ever, but it's very meta. It's the most meta photo I've ever taken. But, like, you know, it's kind of like that. That is a way that, you know, when we talked about intent earlier and like, you know, fine art versus whatever, again, all just marketing, but these, you know, this is kind of like the intent that comes from it. It's like, it's not just. I'm not just taking a picture of salt. I'm taking a picture and I'm applying meaning to it. And I'm using my, My, my. The visual language of photography, using out of focus to soften details. You know, photographing direct light to kind of let everything in the shadows render into black and. And using it with intent to say, like, look, this is a phase change, and it speaks to kind of what I've been going through in life. But, yeah, that's. That's kind of the direction that I like to go with my work is. Is communicating something a little bit more. You know, there are a lot of just kind of that pictures that I just consider to be pretty pictures on my Instagram, which I enjoy. They're very meaningful, but they might not say so much. Right. Like this 1, the 1, 2 to the right of that, you know, kind also kind of speaks to what I'm going through now, where. What this is, is a path. It's a salt creek and death valley. So we have this. These streams that kind of pour out of the hillside into the lowest point in the lower 48. And it's getting hit with sunset light, but it was direct sunset light. So as I hide, you know, as I exposed for that bright light, it rendered everything else into black. So when I look at this, I see a path, you know, my path of light leading me forward through these challenging times that I've been through. And it speaks of hope. It speaks of a way forward. It speaks of, you know, just kind of like, you know what, as long as I stay on this path, I won't be in the darkness and I can just continue on. And there's hope, there's peace, there's a future up there. So that. That's kind of what that. That photo says to me. So that those are the photos that become the most meaningful to me is when I'm able to make that connection. But then again, there's just a lot of pretty photos on my Instagram feed too, that maybe don't have that. That depth or that connection to. And those are fine too. You know, they're. They're great for marketing, but these are the types of photos that would make it into a portfolio project and might be part of my Sunlight Sonata. A project. [01:58:16] Speaker A: Yep. Amazing. Yeah, [01:58:20] Speaker C: it's. Yeah. The Instagram feed. For anyone that as much as we've picked on social media today, highly. If you haven't come across TJ's work before, it's. It's well worth a deep. A deep scroll, as is the website. And the website is, Is very. Hang on, I'm going to just bring that up here. And [01:58:39] Speaker A: for those watching with an hour later, links to the sites will be added to the show. Show notes. [01:58:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think they're already in there now. So you can go there to TJ thornphotography.com and just hit the subscribe thing and then you can easily get on the newsletter, in which case then you'll be getting everything with no algorithm. No algorithm. And, [01:59:00] Speaker B: you know, and I don't put a lot of emails out. And I'm trying, you know, that's one area where again, to, you know, draw people to my newsletter, I'm gonna, I try to create a little bit more value. So instead of just being, like, using as a marketing tool, like here, you know, new workshops. It's like here, read this article that I wrote on creative friction or, you know, giving you, you know, the permission to suck kind of things like that. Like a lot of, you know, so, you know, it's. I'm trying to create value. So I'm not just trying to blow your inbox up with me trying to sell you shit, but actually give you useful things that you can. But you know what, that I am a professional, so I do have to try to sell you shit. I'm sorry, that's just the way the world works. But you got to. You got to take it. You got to take it. [01:59:36] Speaker C: Hey, we do it as well, you know, go to Luckystraps.com if you need a camera strap, head there now and purchase one, please, because then we can interview more people like tj. Okay. Yeah, we've. We've kept you for basically two hours. I should very, very quickly ask you about gear. What, what do you shoot with now? How important is gear to what you do most used lenses, anything like that? What comes to mind [02:00:00] Speaker B: gear specifically is not something that I necessarily care about or that isn't, you know, it's, it's a tool, right. And some tools are, you know, if you're, if you're a carpenter, you might like one hammer over another hammer because of the way it feels or you know, the weight swings. And it's the same thing with cameras, right? Like, you know, cameras, a camera, it has three settings. They all kind of pretty much do the same thing. They just have different bells and whistles. Right now my main camera is a Canon. My main lens that is on the end of my camera 99.9% of the time is the RF100 to 4, 500. Because I do shoot a lot of intimate stuff and zoom into the details. And then I have my Pentax K1000 with a 43 millimeter prime. There it is. Yeah, [02:00:43] Speaker C: I just got this very recently. [02:00:46] Speaker B: My favorite lens I've ever used, my Pentax K1000 with a 40, 43 millimeter prime. Because that's, that's different, right? It's, it's different than what I normally do. And then I also have some TLRs. I have a Yashica 365 and a Rolleiflex old standard that I like to use and my iPhone 17 Pro Pro Max. That's [02:01:09] Speaker C: it. You cut out very quickly when you said the camera body. It was the Canon R. [02:01:15] Speaker B: R5. [02:01:16] Speaker C: R5. Nice. [02:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, just the original R5. I'm not rich enough and rolling deep in money and if I get a couple workshop sign up, sign ups out of this, maybe I can buy a new rig. The R5 is great. I love it. It gives me everything I need and I like that. I can. You know, with Canon you can pretty much program all of the buttons to do what you want them to do. So it becomes like your tool. If I, if I pick up my friend's R5, like it's not going to be the same camera as mine. So. Because he just has different settings and everything. So it kind of becomes, you know, an extension. And there's a, there's a fluency that you're able to do when you have a tool like that where you don't need to think about the camera, you don't need to think about the gear. And as soon as I start fussing with the gear and filters and all that kind of stuff, less it becomes about the experience, more it becomes about managing gear. That's usually when I stop photographing. So. [02:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah, [02:02:03] Speaker B: yeah, [02:02:03] Speaker A: yeah, [02:02:04] Speaker B: keep it simple. [02:02:04] Speaker A: Agree. Amazing. [02:02:06] Speaker C: Love it. [02:02:07] Speaker A: And the. The ultimate question, Justin. The zombie apocalypse. [02:02:11] Speaker C: Let's [02:02:12] Speaker A: wrap on [02:02:12] Speaker C: that. End of the world. We're coming to it now with AI anyway, and everything else going on in the world. If it was the end of the world and you had to jump in your van, grab the cat and get away from the. The horde of zombies or whatever, what one camera and lens would you choose to take to document the end of the world? [02:02:37] Speaker B: I kind of want to feel like I should answer with an analog, but. But I think if I'm. If I'm documenting the end of the world, that means that my demise is soon coming and I probably want to do it with some fluency. So I'd probably just grab my R5 and my 100, 550 and sail off into the Armageddon. [02:02:56] Speaker C: I love it. Yeah. Yeah, a lot. It's funny, a lot of people will say, yeah, like a film camera or something like that, and then you're like, developing it or what do you just leave roles for the future to figure out? You know, like leave a middle. [02:03:08] Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe that's your legacy, [02:03:09] Speaker C: time capsule somewhere. [02:03:10] Speaker B: Well, there's a. I think it was. I think his name's David Johnston, the guy that photographed Mount St. Helens and Washington State erupting, and that's basically what he did. Like, he's like, he just took photographs of it and until, until he was overcome by the, by the, by the explo. You know, the, the eruption and the, the gases and just, you know, they, they retrieved his film afterwards and, you know, so that's. I think that's a pretty close to what we're talking about. And it was [02:03:35] Speaker A: filmed pretty [02:03:35] Speaker B: much, so it's arrived. [02:03:38] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you very much, tj. On that note, I think, note, I think we'll wrap today's episode of the Camera Life podcast. Folks, thank you so much for watching and listening. Of course, we are live right now, but if you're watching this later, make sure you leave a comment. Give this episode a like. It certainly helps out a lot because it does tell those algorithms that we are here and that we have content worth sharing. And of course, subscribe. It costs you nothing. Tickle the bell icon. That way you'll get notified in your time zone of every time we go live with the Camera Live podcast, which is every Thursday morning, 9am Australian Eastern Daylight Time at the moment, where we interview an amazing photographer and get to discover more about them, their journey and the creative processes. And then of course, Every Monday evening, 7.30pm Australian Eastern Daylight time, we have our random photography show where we talk about everything from industry news, product launches, right through to reviewing your images live on the podcast. So make sure you subscribe, check it out and also head to Lucky Straps, today's sponsor. That's also us, but it just feels better to say today's sponsor. [02:04:41] Speaker C: Yeah, [02:04:42] Speaker A: you get just [02:04:43] Speaker C: do [02:04:43] Speaker B: it, do [02:04:44] Speaker C: it. [02:04:44] Speaker A: But tj, most importantly, thank you so much for your time today. But more importantly, your amazing insight and perspective on why we do what we do and you know, how to, how you've made it work for you was inspirational to others. So thank you so much for sharing that story. We really appreciate it. [02:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity and thanks to everybody for listening and anybody that will listen in the future for, you know, giving me a little bit of your very valuable time that you'll. [02:05:12] Speaker C: I never get it back. [02:05:14] Speaker A: Yep. Oh, now we're frozen. [02:05:16] Speaker C: Yeah, he's frozen. Oh, no. [02:05:18] Speaker A: Oh, no. Let's, let's, let's roll the music and we'll say goodbye. [02:05:23] Speaker C: We'll roll the music. We'll see if he comes back mid. Mid music roll. Andrew Thompson, thanks for joining us on a live. It was good to see you. Sorry we lost you there for a second. DJ Rodney Nicholson, thanks for joining us. Matt Palmer, good to see you. Hey, hope you find feeling better. Lisa Leach says. Thanks, guys. Amazing interview. Thanks, tj. Thanks, Lisa. Dennis Smith was here, says can we start again? Well, you can, Dennis. Once it's over, just go back to the start and start it. You'll be right. [02:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:52] Speaker C: Who else? Philip Johnson. Thanks, gents. Special thanks, tj. Who else was here? There was tons of people here today. I said Rodney Nicholson. Oh, JC Orange was here. Some of the photography sites like 5,500px is starting to lose the grip on AI generated images sneaking in. Yeah, it's a problem. Brent goes outside photo. Very cool. Hope we see in the future. Yeah. Glenn Lavender. Sam Olson was here. Colleen Oliver from Hawke's Bay, New Zealand. Obviously Tristan was here. Lucinda, everybody. Paul. It was a party. Thanks, everybody and we'll catch you guys in the next one. [02:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah, be safe, everyone. [02:06:33] Speaker B: Thanks. One.