EP75 Bruce Moyle | Cinematographer by Day, Fine Art Photographer by Night

[00:00:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Good evening and welcome to the Camera Life. This is not the random photography show though. This is the camera life episode 75. It's the 5th of May, if you can believe that. 2025. We're coming to you live from Victoria, Australia. And our special guest who's joining us tonight is coming to you live from Tasmania, which is part of Australia. She's not joined in any way. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Overseas, international. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's set apart. Set apart for a reason. But yes, we are joined tonight. Special guest, award winning fine art photographer Bruce Moyle. Bruce, finally. [00:01:05] Speaker C: Hello. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Got you on the show. [00:01:07] Speaker C: I'm here to be roasted as I have been roasting you guys in the comments for weeks. [00:01:11] Speaker A: This is payback time. So for any of you watching or listening along, whether you're watching live with us now or if you happen upon this a bit later on on either YouTube or on your favorite audio podcasting, podcasting channel or platform, I should say, yeah, leave your comments, ask your questions, roast away. [00:01:31] Speaker D: Get in the live chat. Hit us up. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Get in the live chat. Ask your questions of Bruce. So of course we've got Bruce joining us tonight, but we're also joined by Lucky Straps founder Justin Castles. Castles. Sorry, Castles, that wrong. I'm from South Yar, so I'm a bit posh and. Hey, mate, how are you? [00:01:50] Speaker D: Hey. I'm good. I'm really good. How are you guys doing? [00:01:55] Speaker A: Okay. Good to hear. And of course, we're joined by Jim. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Hey, Greg. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yet another fantastic shirt choice. [00:02:02] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:02:03] Speaker A: I love it. I do love it. So this is the Camera Life podcast and we're going to deep dive into Bruce's story. There's, there's a lot to learn. We've learned today. Justin and I have been doing a bit of digging. Justin's done some very impressive research, investigative research. [00:02:20] Speaker D: I don't know about that. I used Google and at least 20 minutes of Googling. [00:02:25] Speaker A: Can't you just let me have the fantasy? [00:02:28] Speaker D: Sorry. Yeah, I spent all day, all day. [00:02:30] Speaker A: And we, we've uncovered some, some, some truths about Bruce. And it turns out that Bruce is one of the founding fathers of podcasting. And here we have him on our own podcast. It's like, it's come full circle. [00:02:42] Speaker D: It's amazing. [00:02:42] Speaker A: It's like Christmas. It's like Santa arriving. [00:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe I don't have the red suit though, at giving gifts. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Get the beard ready though. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll give you that. [00:02:55] Speaker A: That's magical. I think mine needs a bit of a trim. It's gone a bit. I've gone a Bit wild. [00:03:04] Speaker D: Speaking of wild, the chat's already getting started. Glenn Lavender says, I wish I was watching this live. Okay. [00:03:13] Speaker C: All right. [00:03:15] Speaker D: Anyway, good evening. Dave Digifrog from Tassie. He says half your listeners are across bass straight. That's probably true. We get a lot from down that way. Philip Johnson, Katrina Ferguson. Justin picks up his beard game. Yes, I do. [00:03:30] Speaker C: Yeah, you do. [00:03:32] Speaker A: He's been growing one. That's actually five weeks growth. [00:03:35] Speaker D: This is 40 years of growth. It's coming in thick. Yeah. So that's all so far. Get in the chat, ask Bruce some questions. Yeah, that's what we'll be. So actually, yeah, maybe we. You should get. Do you want to. Yeah, get Bruce to give everyone a little rundown of who he is. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. Let's just have. Give us a little, kind of, a little summary of who you are and what it is that you do at the moment and then we're going to roll back and unravel your story a little bit more. So, Bruce, who are you and what do you do? [00:04:04] Speaker C: I'm a Bruce. I live in Northern Tasmania. I do things with cameras, sometimes with stills and sometimes with motion and general. Into mess. No, to be honest, I. I've been a stills and video guy for a long time and originally an audio guy. Been through a lot of different jobs in different places. Currently my main gig is working for the University of Tasmania, making a lot of specialist product product in video, land and animation and a few other places and in healthcare and really deep diving into the systems within Tasmania and the country with a lot of different people from patients and community through to clinicians and everything in between. Very documentary, very video centric. There is stills involved in that. Outside of that, I do my own art practice which is more based around abstract and portraiture. Have worked a lot in commercial and industrial and education and other spaces. Done fashion, done the gamut. Love my street photography as well, but I'm pretty much well known for the abstract stuff which is fun and enjoyable to make. So. Yeah, that's like at 1% of the stuff I do. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Wow. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Pretty all rounder by the sound of it. [00:05:38] Speaker D: He's an all rounder. During my digging today, I come across the phrase commercial videographer by day, fine art photographer by night. How much truth is there to that? [00:05:54] Speaker C: Yeah, that's pretty accurate because clients need. Well, it's funny, my work, I've only been in this particular role since COVID Due to Covid sort of destroyed and stopped a lot of stuff I was doing because I was Always traveling. So I took this job on as a interesting way of one, covering finances. But two was a way of doing something which was actually going to be not promoting and selling something because that's a lot of the work I ended up doing is selling stuff to people. And doing something in this space meant that I was making something that was going to benefit community and society, I felt anyway. And it seems to be doing that. So that's a 9 to 5 ish job technically. But I've also had been working for myself so long that I do the job when it's required. So before Easter I went and worked with a family where I documented a little boy with a syndrome called Angelman syndrome, which is a very highly handicapped little boy from his getting up out of bed when his dad woke him up to when his mom put him to bed that night and everything in between. And so there's like a 15 hour day sort of thing. 15, 16 hour day. That's for me. I don't mind doing that because you do the job when the job is required. So the art part of it falls in the cracks when I feel like it. In between. Sometimes I go through months without making anything and other times I'll just smash out a heap of stuff because I'm inspired and I'm not wanting to. Well, you know, you get fatigue of sitting in front of a computer or whatever else. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you, you're a dad. How do you find? I just want to dive into that because, you know, being a parent myself and you know, you capturing that content of that family, how does that, how does that work for you? How do, how do you engage with that as a parent, but also as a visual creative working with kids and families that are, you know, obviously sick and. [00:08:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I've seen it all. I've been in ICUs and documented people after surgeries and stuff and that. So it's weird. Like my empathy meter was kind of muted until I had a kid. Like I biggest horror movie fan you've ever seen and stuff like that. I, I actually said to the people who hired me like about six months in, I said, you guys never asked me if I was okay with anatomy and blood and guts and stuff like that. On the, when you hired me, okay, I haven't strong stomach, I can pretty much do anything, but when it comes to kids, after my daughter was born, Tarta, it's a lot harder. I, I think I commented. Commented? You had the interview the other day. Oh, sorry, my brain is blanking. Who, who was Your photojournalist. I should know because he's a mate. [00:08:51] Speaker A: I'm just Chris Hopkins. [00:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah, Chris. Yeah, all right, sorry, sorry, Chris. So Chris's Ugandan stories about, you know, kids with disabilities being locked up and stuff like that. And I, I put in the comments like, that stuff destroys me and yeah, you gotta take time. Thankfully, I haven't seen any abuse stuff and I don't really want to be around that, but I have seen very sick kids. So for me it's the empathy thing and just taking time and, and trying to process it. So at the moment it hasn't affected me at all, but I am wary. Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. [00:09:30] Speaker A: It's a, it's a, you know, it's a really unique. And it's a really unique opportunity you've been given, but it's also one that's based on trust and humility, isn't it? [00:09:41] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. A lot of the work I'm doing now is very much a. Based around trust because it's people at their most intimate and sometimes worst moments or whatever else. So I'm not seeing people after that next. And that these are people who've just disabled from whatever reason or, you know, had life changing trauma or stuff like that. And it's. Yeah, because I interview people. Like I had, I interviewed a guy about a month ago and he's his wife and I said like he'd been in a coma, it had like heart attack, it had all this trauma and he. And, and I was like, I'm going to ask the question. Like, you know, you went through all this stuff and you're an ICU for months and stuff like that. Did you have an advanced care directive? And you know, how, how did that work? Like, and kind of putting that documentarian cabinet. And I always go, you don't have to answer. But people are so open about trying to get their experience across to help other people that. Yeah, I have to ask those questions because otherwise I'm doing a disservice to them. And the people are going to watch the stuff later. Sorry, it's got very deep, very quickly. [00:10:55] Speaker A: No, it did, it did. We got into that very heavy. So thanks for the summary of it. Yeah. Justin, I feel like you've got a question. [00:11:04] Speaker D: I've been making notes. I'm, I'm interested. We'll get to it later. I've been making, I'm very interested in how, how that all that weaves in with your stills art and whether inspiration gets drawn from that. But I'd Love to. I'd probably love to unpack that a bit later once we've got a bit more of a background of what you've done with both like with your career basically and how you got to the point where you were, you know, you've done. Correct me if I'm wrong but exhibits, won awards, all that sort of stuff for stills work while also building a career as a cinematographer and among other things. And yeah, I'm just really interested about how all of that plays together basically. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's roll back the clock to. To some of your earliest inspirations. Obviously you're a creative, you've got a good eye and you've obviously got a good ear. What was your first kind of inspiration into that. That world? What was your first experiences? [00:12:07] Speaker C: Even I know what the experience would be. I inspirations. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Did you have like an artistic background, artistic parents? [00:12:18] Speaker C: No, mum and dad are healthcare. That was an ambo for like 43 years. Mum was a nurse for most of her career and high end, high dependency in ICU based stuff. So there's the full circle there. But we will never push towards health care. We'll allowed to do whatever we wanted. I. I was crap at school like no, not crap, just mediocre. I was never good at sport. When I got to grade 11 and 12 I did a year in art and a year in music. So I played guitar for up until grade 12 bit after that I played in bands and stuff like that. So that's probably the art thing and the art stuff was very much mucking around with I can't draw to save my life or pain or anything but I always been into technology so programming Commodore 64s and different things and yeah they had a power Mac in the art room which had like Photoshop 1 or 1.5 or something in it and I just went nuts on it. So I did art and I basically got. I learned how to capture footage. I got footage out of channel seven here off the feeds which was the ira the troubles and it was the stuff they couldn't put there. So I captured that and then put music to it. Ministry, New World Order and stuff. Totally, totally wouldn't get away with the stuff these days because it's mostly because I'm just using a lot of copyrighted material but. But it was just me being that angsty kid who really into like Screw the man and you know, things are horrible and stuff. I think if I was a teenager now it'd be probably be that on steroids considering the world order at the minute. Yeah, but. But yeah, it was. It was interesting. So I did a lot of photo manipulation, but wasn't taking photos. I wasn't using a camera. I was just using Photoshop and manipulating stuff and things and playing with it. And it's obviously Photoshop 1 or 1.5, whatever. It was really early days, some basic filters and. And I had to print because we had to display it and the only thing we had to print with was an A4 laser printer, so black and white monochrome, and it could only do A four, so. And I had to do, you know, you know, A two pieces or whatever. So I would grid it up, take every part of it, print it to an A4, get a big sheet, sticky tape or what. Now was it like glue. Glue it and try to make the collage? I did that, yeah, because it was like I didn't know how to print anything bigger. I didn't think that there probably was places to be able to print stuff big at that stage, but nothing that was affordable. And anything I'd seen that did print big stuff were plotters. So for architecture and drafting. So totally inappropriate for what I was trying to do. But yeah, so probably started there. [00:15:28] Speaker A: And so that was in high school. [00:15:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Out of high school, did you. Did you move into study? Did you move straight into work? What happened from there? [00:15:39] Speaker C: I went to Tafenid Audio engineering. I got into bands and I played in bands or a band predominantly, and I knew my limits, but I also was really fascinated. If you take anything away from this interview, I'm just a nerd for tech and really hard stuff as well at times. And so I got into auto engineering. I was recording our demos, I was, you know, four track and then I was mixing down and bounce downs and doing all sorts of stuff. And that was kind of cool because I got us onto Triple J for Unearthed with that song we wrote when Unearthed was still a thing that would travel and it wasn't website or anything like that. So I think we came fifth in Tasmania. It was first time it ran in Tasmania, so we had to play it live. And it's like, it is so bad. Somebody threw. Threw a soundcloud at me one day with it and I won't never show me that again. What sort of. [00:16:43] Speaker D: What sort of music was it? [00:16:44] Speaker C: Just, you know, we're all. I was a metalhead, I have been forever. But all the guys I was playing with were into like crunch, so they went to Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins and stuff like that. So it sort of sat in that Space. [00:16:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:57] Speaker C: But we had to play it acoustic because we're in a Launceston radio ABC radio station. And it was like. Like this is my studio and it's like not even a fifth the size of this. It was like a desk and enough room. Like the drummer had to use a snare and a hi hat and a symbol. It was. That's. That's as much space as we can give you. Yeah. So where was I going afterwards? I. I did. I went and did audio engineering. I did that for a while. I did. I worked in venues for a while. I. I was a roadie. I did all that sort of stuff. Big concerts. I did like Meatloaf and In Excess and Nice. All sorts of stuff that came through here. Not as an engineer but more as a. Like, you know. You know, hands on getting stuff done. Did Michael Flatley's Bloody Lord of the Flies, basically. I don't know. [00:17:54] Speaker A: I saw a poster for that the other day. Yeah, can't still be going. He must. [00:18:00] Speaker D: A current poster. [00:18:02] Speaker A: A current poster? Yeah. It was a big poster. [00:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:06] Speaker A: He's still doing it. [00:18:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So they. They came into Launceston because they really big at that stage. And Launces has a. A velome called the Silver Dome. So it's the biggest space in Launceston outside of the stadium. And it's undercover, like it's a sealed space. And so the. All the big concerts were in there for a long time. So we. That was where Meat Life was, was Tina Turner. You had everybody. So Michael Flatley was in there. They put 14 ton of lighting into the sky across the rig. And the guy who. Because you've got to have the sparky for the venue sign off the actual connections and he walked in and went, no, you got to call the other guy. I'm leaving. I'm not going anywhere. It was the operating limit to this venue. I was like, oh, God, it was. It was nuts. [00:18:59] Speaker A: And is that one of those cases where someone just needs to turn on the kettle and the whole place goes dark? [00:19:03] Speaker C: Yep. Pretty damn close. So, yeah, I did a lot of production work in lots of different guys. Is there. Plus corporate stuff like everybody does when you're in that space. And then. Yeah. What did I do then? And then there's a lot of other bits and pieces. End up going to uni, do a degree in computing with my mates and so went in and out of that. Dropped out because I had an argument with the dean and then went to the America and worked there for a while in Doing some work in Hollywood, just trying to learn my chops in audio and film. That was interesting, but it wasn't for me. I hate Los Angeles as a space. Like, it's a horrible setting to live in. I'm sorry. If anybody's listening from Los Angeles, it's. [00:19:51] Speaker D: It'S late there at the moment. We get a few on the, on the morning. Yeah, it's late there at the moment. If they're awake, then they're probably weird. [00:19:58] Speaker C: Yeah, you're better tomorrow, don't worry. Yeah, much, much, much bigger fan of Colorado, to be honest. [00:20:06] Speaker D: How good is Colorado? [00:20:07] Speaker C: It is awesome. [00:20:08] Speaker D: That is, that is the place to be. But yeah, I, I completely agree. LA's difficult. Difficult and weird. [00:20:15] Speaker C: And yeah, the first thing I did when I got home from, from there was I went, I flew in, I think it was six in the morning. Went and bought a pie and a. Like a 4x or something stupid at the airport. And, and then, and then I was just like, what, what did you miss? I just said I missed the color green. Green is something you do not get in Los Angeles. [00:20:37] Speaker D: Concrete, it's just. Everything's just concrete junk. [00:20:41] Speaker C: What. [00:20:41] Speaker D: So how long were you there for? [00:20:43] Speaker C: About six months. I was only 19, so I couldn't technically drink or do anything like that. So. No, we did. So. But yeah, yeah. [00:20:52] Speaker D: So went there for one specific project or tried to do multiple projects or tried to get work in. In sort of. [00:20:58] Speaker C: I tried to get work. I met the. I met a guy called Randy Tom at a, At a sh. At a thing that was in Melbourne. It ran by a guy at a RMIT called Cinescope, which. By a guy called Philip Brophy who was. It was about audio, audio in film. And it was like the world's first sort of conference on that. And I went over there just because that was where I always wanted to do post production sound for film. I couldn't go into the Australian Film Television Radio school because it's a private unique style thing and it costs a fortune and you have to, you have to do it full time. You can't work. And it's, it's a really difficult space to be. So unless you've got somewhere to live in Sydney and stuff. So at the time it was just like, that's no way. No. Um, but I met a guy called Randy Tom, who's one of the guys who made Star wars, and at this conference and I kind of wanted to go and work at Skywalker Sound because that is the dream. And I sort of tried to Put myself in that space and it didn't work. I did get on film sets. I. I got to work on a film called the Specials, which never got released here in Australia, but it was directed by a. A guy who has sort of gone up in the world. He's currently the code manager creative of DC Comics Film Universe. He's got three. Three big films under his belt minimum, which are the Guardians the Galaxy films. So. Yeah. James Gun. James. Oh, God, the Guns. They're both the brothers there. Sean and Sean Gunn and that. So it was like a little indie film he was doing, which he had no money for. And it happened to be in San Pedro where I was. I was hanging around at the time, which is a weird space to hang around, by the way. So the ports of Los Angeles. So I did that. Came home because I was running out of money and I just sick of Los Angeles and went back to uni, finished that off, got hired by the university to be a programmer because what I said was. Was right. And what they back. So they kind of backflipped on what. Why we had an argument and then offered me a job. Hang on. [00:23:13] Speaker D: This is. This is the uni that you had an argument with the day and you left. Got kicked. [00:23:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker D: Or whatever. And then you got. [00:23:19] Speaker C: I didn't get kicked out, but I. I came back and. [00:23:22] Speaker D: Right. [00:23:23] Speaker C: And yeah. There's a lot of other reasons in there, but. [00:23:26] Speaker D: And then they hired you. [00:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah. While still studying at an office. And everything was great. [00:23:33] Speaker B: That's good. [00:23:34] Speaker D: Nice revenge. [00:23:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And the funny thing was. So I did that and I came out of uni and it was when the bubble burst on the. What was the dot com bubble burst. And so nobody was hiring anybody, especially garage. And I got a job offer. Not a job offer. I got a contract with a friend of mine for the Australian AT. Not Army. Australian Navy. Making a multimedia city wrong with Macromedia Flash, if anybody remembers. And shot. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. [00:24:07] Speaker C: Yeah. It was a recruitment for their cadets. So I had to register a business and registered that. And we did the job and we made CDs which were sent everywhere around the country. And that got a check in hand from the Australian Federal Reserve and I took it into the bank and said, if this bounces, we're all stuffed. And then from there I've been working for myself ever since. Until current situation with COVID and that. So did lots of other stuff in there. So. That's a long winded answer. There's heaps more. [00:24:42] Speaker A: No, no, it's a good answer. [00:24:44] Speaker D: Is. Is that the N. Is that that business that you started? Is that Joffrey street or how do you pronounce it? [00:24:51] Speaker C: Joffrey. Yeah, you got it right. No, it started off as a thing called Ghostline Media. My autofocus is being weird. [00:25:00] Speaker D: Is it a Fuji film? [00:25:02] Speaker C: Yeah, no, no. A7S3 sitting here. But it's probably weird setting. I haven't. Yeah, no, it was Ghostline Media and it was basically built websites and stuff for ages for people and did all that sort of stuff and did audio gigs and things like that as well. But it was sort of. It really started the hodgepodge of what I do is really at that point. So I sort of, you know, as you do you try to go, I can do this and I can do that and yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So nice. [00:25:36] Speaker D: And so especially if you're passionate about all of it, it's hard to say no to. Yeah, it's a potential work. [00:25:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:42] Speaker A: And just for context, you were. When you're saying you were building websites and stuff, that this was early days of websites, wasn't it? [00:25:49] Speaker C: Yeah, this is like HTML 2.0 and earlier and it was like. It was the early days of php, so I was coding, making my own frameworks in that decode. E commerce was only just coming up. PayPal kind of was on the scene a little bit. But yeah, nobody was really using credit card online and that was starting to come out. So it was like, oh, this is scary. Don't put your credit card into things. [00:26:15] Speaker A: And yeah, yeah, we've all been stung there. Anyway, so at what point did you. Did photography or videography catch your eye? [00:26:31] Speaker C: Well, as it was into pictures, like, I loved watching like Christopher Ray, Superman movies and Star wars and all that. Me beeping all you guys, it shouldn't be me. [00:26:42] Speaker D: I don't hear any beeping. [00:26:44] Speaker C: Oh, I think it's my laptop over here. I've got two machines. Sorry. Anyway, just mute. You go away. That's better, what I do. Yeah. I was always into movies. Movies was a big thing for me, so. And I love visuals and stuff. I don't know, we. We were working together. I think the video stuff became more of a role when I was working. We had an office in town and me and my mates were doing stuff. We're podcasting and. And things and they had a background in video more than me. And they were teaching and stuff like that, particularly my friend David Quinn and. But we started doing sketches and stuff and I just got more involved and got more interested and then it was like, oh, you know, these are just handycams and stuff. Like, oh, we can adapt this lens onto the front of the handycam, you know, and we make, you know, depth of field and stuff. So this is before the 5D Mark I revolution happened. And so we did lots of stuff like that. We're doing time lapses, but we had to use a video camera and use different things to capture it and motion heads and stuff like that, all hand built by friends and stuff. So we're doing, started doing commercial work in that space. And I. And then the 5D Mark II revolution happened and sort of went, okay, it's, it's time to proper, proper step up and play. And obviously I'd been on film sets and that as well by that stage and done things in that space, but more on the audio side. But I'd seen camera. So the biggest thing for me was like learning what, how focal lengths work properly because even I'd worked on sets and that I, I hate boom swinging. So I'd avoided it when I could. And that meant that I never learned what focal lengths were, you know, what the difference between the numbers was. But that then changed because I had to learn to use a camera and it made much more sense. And yeah, it's one of those things where when you, I learned lessons of when you say you don't want to know, that's kind of bite you in the ass and become back to something you should know and then you have to learn the hard way later. So I tend to, I tend to say, oh, I don't know if I need to know that. I'll have a look at it just so I'm familiar. But I won't deep dive if I can help it unless it becomes really interesting. Because yeah, I've been too many times back in the past where I've gone, I don't need to know that. And it's definitely been, oh, crap, I should have known that. [00:29:26] Speaker D: Yeah, okay, so that's the lesson. Don't, don't leave things just because you don't need to know them right now. [00:29:32] Speaker C: Yeah, you hear the people who say that's not my job and it could possibly not be your job, that's fine. But have a little bit of knowledge to at least recognize what the job is and stuff is really, really helpful. [00:29:47] Speaker D: Was the 5D mark II the thing that kind of introduced you more to taking your own still images? [00:29:56] Speaker C: No. No. [00:29:57] Speaker D: What was it? [00:29:58] Speaker C: Okay, so my partner Tian got into roller derby. That was a big thing 10 plus years ago. Went Right around the country still is fairly big, but it's not on the scale I believe anymore. And it's like you go have your hobby and that and I'll come along and I'll. And I made some videos and stuff like that. But I got sick of doing post production on. On these videos I was making and that was just one of those things of a lot of work for not a lot of reward reality. I know they appreciated it, but for me it like this is eating so much time. So I decided to try and take photos. And that was one of those things where you're in a fast environment, fast environment, dark environment. And I didn't have really good quality lenses or anything like that for stills. And I, I just took it as opportunity to learn and I don't, I'm not a sporty person. I don't follow sport. I had to learn how the sport worked to actually photograph it well. And I had this policy that I would not buy anything that was going that could only be used for stills. It had to be multi purpose. I need to be able to use that bit of equipment also for video. Can you guess what? I was actually hamstringing myself on. [00:31:20] Speaker D: Primes. [00:31:21] Speaker C: No, no. [00:31:22] Speaker D: What do you mean? [00:31:24] Speaker C: I was actively stopping myself from buying strobes. I did not want straight. [00:31:31] Speaker D: Did you. [00:31:31] Speaker B: Was that a video thing? Like a fear of like learning something new? [00:31:36] Speaker C: Kind of, but it was more so video is my thing. I'm doing video. I don't need to do stills. [00:31:43] Speaker B: So you don't need a strobe if you, if you do video. [00:31:45] Speaker C: Video. Yeah, yeah. And then I. And the images were okay, but they were nothing amazing. And then I saw an image on the Internet on the early and it was like this crystal sharp crisp jammer and I was just like how the f did they do that? Talked to my friend on ICQ or something like that in Sydney and he just went that's off camera strobe. And lo and behold I went and bought strobes. Then I got interested in portraiture and then I got interested in everything else and we just went down that rabbit hole so far. Yeah, yeah. So then I ended up getting paid almost well at one point I was getting paid more for my stills work than I was for my video work because I was just getting so much work in that space and I, I separated myself I should probably say. My brother is a professional photographer. He went to rmit. He's younger than me. He's. He's done amazing things as well. And I did not want to be a photographer, because that's what he does, really. [00:32:50] Speaker D: So you pushed back on it that. That hard? [00:32:53] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [00:32:55] Speaker D: It got you eventually. [00:32:56] Speaker C: It got me eventually. And so I purposely also differentiated myself because he started with landscapes and then went into weddings and families and obviously portraiture sort of sits in there. I went, I don't want to do that. I'll do commercial work, I'll do fashion, I'll do, you know, furniture, still life, etc. So I did all that. Have done that. That's why I'm good at that stuff. I think so, yeah. Very much in that space. And once I opened up to that and I got good at using strobes, then it was like, okay, this is easy, and that's a technical thing. And then I went into how far can I push retouching and be advanced in that and, you know, all the rest of it and sort of went from I haven't used Photoshop in 10 years to oh, shit, I now know Photoshop back to front. And I know I'm way too geeky on it now. Yeah. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Maybe give us some lessons. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Do you still use it much? [00:33:54] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, I use Photoshop a lot. Yeah. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Like, other than for the art things or. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, if I do a headshot, I'll retouch it and stuff. Like, I still do headshots for people and things, so. [00:34:05] Speaker A: So is that where the portraiture work started for you? Was it just doing headshots and kind of. [00:34:13] Speaker C: I was doing stuff. I was doing the headshots. I started with, like, doing skater profile photos and stuff like that. And then sort of went, oh, I can learn how to do headshots. And then. And then I just continued on. People asked me to do things and I. And my blanket rules is I don't do. Basically, I don't do weddings because I not interested in video or steals work. Sorry, guys. You guys can keep that sector of the market. It's definitely not me. And so. And then I really got into the idea of fashion because. And it was. I have no idea about fashion, to be honest, but it was the technical of it. Like how to make clothes look good on camera, how to make people look good, the shapes, textures, and how to retouch. So I did, like, fashion stuff. I did some stuff for Melbourne Fashion Festival, VAM or whatever it is and stuff. And. And I did a lot. I did hair stuff as well. Like, you know, fancy hair competitions and stuff where the model's got to be immaculate and hair's got to be perfect. And, you know, because they've dyed it and styled it in particular ways. So it was. It was a really fun thing to learn. But ultimately there's not a lot of work in it and a lot of paid work here in Tassie at least. And I. It is very time consuming. People don't realize how much work goes into the post production of it to do really, really well. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Are you talking about fashion shoots in particular? [00:35:42] Speaker C: Oh, all of it, yeah. All of it, yeah. Like, to. This is where I tied myself up on the knot. I. I looked at the magazines and went, I want to be at that level. And that means I need to be working at that level in the output I'm putting. And that actually caused me to fall over. I got to a point where I couldn't do the work because I never thought it was good enough. That was that perfectionism kicking in. And yeah, I. I did a shoot and I couldn't. I couldn't get the. I couldn't get the output out. I couldn't do it. I stopped. It was. Was horrible. It was horrible for everybody involved. It was one of those things I couldn't do. So I took a break from it. But there was one thing that. And this is where the art comes in. I did a shoot in Sydney and this is not the shooter that I didn't deliver. And I made a mistake on the machine. On the shoot, I was using somebody else's strobes. It was like the. From the studio or whatever I was in. And then I hit a button on the. On the rush and I went into multi strobe mode and I got this weirdest image and I went, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'll just fix that. Sorry, I'm not used to these ones fixed. That went under the shoot. And then I. In the post production, I looked at it and went, that's really interesting. That's really cool. When. And I then went, I want to try that again. And I got somebody else in. The image we used for the promo for this is from the actual second shoot, the one where I purposely went to try and shoot, like, the mistake I made. And then it was just like, all right, on. For a young and old, I'm just going to keep making mistakes and trying weird stuff. And that's where the art came from. It was just like, stop being constrained by the idea of it has to be perfect, you know? Yes. Need to do that for the other people, for the people that are paying me. But for me, no, let's. Let's try. Let's try and make things weird and wonderful and strange. Who cares if nobody likes it? So yeah. And since then I've always experimented. The difference would be also is I generally used paid art models because they are experienced to know when things are different and strange and they like working this way. And it's also I found that like people get into trade for photo. And that's one of the problems is that I can't deliver to a trade for photo when I'm not happy with it. And also I'm going to make. Now I make stuff which is really strange and I don't usually expect people to like it. So unless they're coming in and going, yeah, I just don't care, let's just. And they're usually friends at that point. They're not just I'm in a Facebook group and going, who wants to do a shoot with me? No, no, not at all. So yeah, so that's. [00:38:42] Speaker A: Let me bring up your. If you don't mind, I just want to bring up your Instagram just so we can so p. Show people some of these happy accidents that you're talking about. Excuse me. Sorry guys. [00:38:56] Speaker B: It's probably not an accident anymore. [00:38:58] Speaker A: No. [00:38:59] Speaker C: Well, it's a deliberate. [00:39:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's have a look here. Talk us through this composition. Tell us a little bit about these kind of freeform experimentation to arrive at this position. [00:39:19] Speaker C: Yeah, so when I shoot, I usually end up with a couple of thousand frames from a few hours working with the model. And it's generally I start as a normal shoot, just portraiture, like just getting settings. Right. Just getting some nice, you know, portraits and that and getting to learn how that the person usually if I haven't worked with them, how they move and that. And then I just start doing things like in camera blurring or multi strobing or mixing the two together and stuff. And then because I don't hide what I'm doing and I show what I'm doing, I usually try to shoot tethered and make sure that we're just constantly looking and stopping and playing go. Oh, that's cool. Let's try more of this and that. Because once I get into the long exposure stuff and I'm mixing and matching, I don't know what we're going to get. And it's sort of that fun thing where we're just iterating and experimenting and trying stuff. And then I'll change the lighting or I'll bring a prop out or I'll add another light or. Or they'll suggest something or they'll go, oh, I've got this bit of clothing, I've got this idea or whatever. And then it's just I end up with what I call a digital mess. And I'll end up with like, you know, a few thousand frames which may look like nothing within reason. And then I'll go through at some point and it can be up to years later and I'll go what I call gold digging. And I'll find something that just stands out to me for whatever reason, just pops. And I go. Because a lot of the times I don't see it at the time. And then I go, okay, let's pull that in. And most of my work is about reducing. Not always, but it's about just removing anything that I find distracting. So like that one there you're looking at, it's almost in camera like that. The coloring toning is a little bit hit changed in post, but it's got like I've cleaned up the floor, I've removed a little bit of hair from above her hand. But all the, the glitching and stuff like that's all in camera. It's. That's how it comes out. And I usually shoot my stuff in black and white as a preview and I then look at the full color image later. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Why is that? Talk us through that. [00:41:52] Speaker C: It's two reasons. And I do this a lot with my commercial work out in the field like documentary or covering events or whatever. Because the camera, especially if you're shooting raw, doesn't matter. What I'm getting is because I can adjust it later or if I'm shooting auto white balance or whatever. So. But you can see luminosity way easier and better when it's in black and white, which means you can tell if anything's clipped or not. And it's reason why broadcast cameras a lot of time are have a black and white evf, especially the older ones. It's because color is going to be color regardless. It's more as long as your white balance is right. It's more about making sure you, yeah, your blacks and your whites are not clipping or anything like that. And you can't always tell that if it is in. If you have the chroma in there, they got the color in there. Also setting the camera to Adobe RGB for preview so you get the full range in the file, not an 8 bit like SRGB. So you just can see the tonality a lot better. So your histograms are much more efficient when you do that give you much more accurate result? [00:43:07] Speaker D: Something I've always wondered. Because the histogram operates off the preview, not of raw. So the histogram does get affected by your. Your choice. Yeah. Yes, I've always wondered that. And I'm like, why isn't this more commonly known? Or why does the histogram when so many people shoot raw, why isn't there a way to display that based off RAW data? [00:43:30] Speaker C: I think, well, it's gonna, it's gotta make a preview either way to do it off the raw. The RAW is just the, is literally just the sensor data plus the transform to be able to view it later. There's other technicals in there, but. But that's basically it. So it's gonna, it's gotta make an image anyway. It's gonna. And they're just gonna store it as a jpeg so they got the maths in there. And you've got to realize no matter what you're saying your ISO is, you're shooting at base ISO plus gain, digital gain to actually add more clarity or whatever you want to exposure to the image. That's the reason why you get noise because depending on how clean that signaling it will just bring the noise floor up regardless. It's just going, okay, got the RAW image in the pipeline, I'm going to throw it through the actual. The computation to give you an image on the back of the camera and at the same time I'll save it as a JPEG or insert as a sidecar or whatever onto the file. So it's same as what you do on a computer really, but it's just done efficiently. And then your color profiles or whatever you put on there, your Fuji film sims or whatever added into that mix. [00:44:39] Speaker D: Yeah. And, and affect the histogram if you're using that as a tool to, to try and expose correctly and stuff. [00:44:46] Speaker C: Yeah. So if you're shooting black and white, depending on how the flavor of the program is, if it's a pure straight saturation dsat, then you're purely seeing the chromaticity of the luminosity within the file. But they're all got their own ways of doing that. So it's, it's more about just making sure you can see what, what's working in camera. I just find it faster and easier. I can assess it. If you're shooting something for color and you need to know if it's going to clip the color values, then yeah, you probably should shoot in color. But a lot of time I just shoot black and white. And then look at the raw slider if I want to. [00:45:22] Speaker D: So I, I find it fun for a lot of the, the non professional work that I do, which is most of it these days. I find it fun to go back through the images later in color. It's almost like a new. Like I don't know what I'm going to see because I've seen them as I took them in black and white. Now I'm like yeah, I wonder what's going to pop out to me, you know like what's. Yeah. So I do, I enjoy that process as well. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Yep, same. [00:45:53] Speaker D: There's a, there is a question here. [00:45:55] Speaker C: Yep. [00:45:56] Speaker D: That I've been sitting on for a while from 20 century modern. Bruce, I know you're into doing your own printing. How has this influenced your editing and your photography practice in general? [00:46:07] Speaker C: You are correct. There is a big printer right there which you can't see. I think it affected it greatly to be honest. I only got into printing due to the APPRA awards and state awards for the AIPP when they first started because that's how you had to enter, you had to enter prints and so that was another technical rabbit hole. Went down pretty hard. I still don't think I've got it nailed but I've done a lot of work in that space and it's definitely something I think makes you a better photographer. Taking your word out of the digital land and making a print and learning how to do that makes you understand what is going on in your camera and how you're pro making stuff. I think it makes it way more efficient and effective learning tool than just looking at stuff on screens because every screen is different. Even though I've got an ISO here and I've got calibrations out there are zoo and everything else. Seeing something physically printed and yeah it's going to be different than your screen. Even if you've got something profile matched it's. There's the tactility in there as well. And I, I did this, I did a hair street quite a while ago and one of the things I did and then they'd run through different photographers doing it and stuff. I think it was for Goldwell or something and I proofed everything, I got everything happy and then I printed hard proofs and I took them in and I said I know you've seen them on the screen, have a look at these. And they were just like oh because it's a totally different look and feel and they were just gobsmacked by it and they went and then we went, okay, now pick them apart. What are the bits that you can see? Because you will see different stuff on a print than you will on a screen. And so I had this like, you know, a 2 print. And we'll just started circling things and noting. So I've got. I. I tend to when I'm doing art prints, I will print off a version and I'll write over it. Like, I know you've got the Magnum magazine book back there, Justin, behind you. And like the old contact prints where that circle and note stuff, I'm basically doing that on, on prints going, this is too bright, this is too dark. And that. I don't do it all the time. But yeah, it. I think it definitely makes you better at knowing how your artwork's going to present. Yes, it's expensive, not for everybody, but in this day and age where everything is a flick, it's way better. In the long run, it's going to last. Last the test of time compared to something that's going to be on Instagram and just looked at for a second and flick past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:48:56] Speaker D: You mentioned the AIPP and entering photo awards. What made you enter your first photo award competition? [00:49:06] Speaker C: I ift an art about it for a long time. I didn't want to. My brother was, was in. In it as well. He'd been in it for a long time and well known. So that was kind of funny when I turned up to my first Appa and everybody knew who I was and I didn't know anybody, but I, I entered it because one of the problems here in Tassie and you might get this because you guys like in Bendigo and that regionally and that, but it may be easier. Very small amount of photographers around who. This is not dissing anybody, but I. I felt like I got to a skill level that I couldn't learn off anybody around me or if they were, they weren't going to talk to me. I really wanted to learn how to be better. I needed that community. I didn't have the community here. Launceston is a very small town or it's a city, but. And yes, I know quite a few of the photographers here and that. But it was one of those, like, you're also competing for the same jobs and whatever else. So in the end I ended up joining and entering and I bombed out very badly because I thought I was putting in good stuff. And then I went and learned and did state awards and stuff. And I. One of the things I took away from it is Awards can be, you treat it like a client in some respects, a client that doesn't know what they want and you look at what they've liked in the past, then you can try and tailor it to that. That's a way of winning. Like this strategy involved in trying to play the game doesn't always work. And I tried that for a little while and I didn't do very well and I saw other people do it really well and I just went, you know what, I'm just going to put in stuff. And I've said this to quite a few people, including other judges and stuff I've said. I always wanted that moment because you, because they're physical prints and it has a turnstile on it so it's like a triangle. And they could put one print in front of the judges and they on the back end they could have one that was getting taken off and one that was going on. So then they'd turn it the next one so you didn't see the print until it was turned and it was in the lighting and stuff like that. And I always wanted, because it's always about that first impression when it turns around. And I was like, I really, really, really want to hear somebody say what the that was because they were always live streamed. And I was like, I totally want that. I don't care about the score. [00:51:34] Speaker D: Did you, did you ever get it got close? [00:51:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So I, so I, I just started putting in the weird stuff and I just went, it's a single swim. Like it's a Stanley Cruise cubic moment where either you're gonna love it or hate it. And I played, I played hardball on it. So, and that's put me in good stead. And it's also made me really appreciate once I became a judge, how hard that is for people to do. And like I remember still being really nervous when the first few times things turned around. And I also remember being scared when I first started judging next to legends like Tony Hill and Peter Eastley this way. But I did it and it's made me better. And the only reason it made me better is made better contacts because I was being. Because you go physically to it and meet these people and have conversations because everybody in that space is 99 of the time there to actually talk to you and have a good time and learn from each other. And the other thing was these ones had feedback like AIPP stuff, particularly on the later years. Everything got a comment and, or you got a discussion. The good thing about the stuff I was putting in. You'd end up with rebuttals and stuff like that as well. So people usually would be like, somebody would love it and somebody would hate it. And then I'd have to have a discussion. So, yeah, awesome. But competitions that don't give you much in the way of feedback or any feedback I don't think are really worth it unless you're really playing the hard game to try and get award or something. If you want to improve. They're more about, oh, I got an honor or I won a big prize. Yes, I've put in for those as well, definitely. But I don't put any grain of salt or anything. There's nothing in there that's going to give me a reward beyond that certificate or whatever, which amount to a hill of beans in the long run. It's nice to have a list of them. Cat, if you're still on here, She's. She tells me off because I haven't. I haven't got a list of all the stuff I want. I still don't. It's. I just never sat down and wrote it down because it's not about that. Like, it is nice. It's nice when you have to go write the bio and stuff, but it's about trying to learn from people and seeing what people and, you know, my work. I bring my daughter in and go, tell me what you see. And she'll say something completely different to what I saw when I was making it. And that's the whole point to me. I love. I love that idea of. Of people not knowing. And that's the reason why I love my abstracts. Because photography and videography is about documenting the world as it is. Unless you're into composites and stuff like that. It is very literal in the way you present the world. For the most part, this is not. This is. And this is the reason why. And you probably. I don't know if you thought about it, but most of my work comes out in square because it's not the same format that is in most cameras. I Look at the 6, 6 by 10 or 6 by 12 frame, it comes off the. Off the image and I'm like. I look at it and go. It looks like. Looks like any other photo. I don't like that I've deliberately put stuff in to awards which was matted and cut to a triangle because I didn't want a square or rectangle or circle mat because that's. That's what everybody else does. I don't really want to do that. Sorry, I. I rabbit on a lot. I. I apologize. [00:55:18] Speaker A: Please. [00:55:18] Speaker B: We're here to listen. [00:55:19] Speaker D: I don't think I've ever seen a triangle. A triangle photo print. I don't think that's. That's very cool. How did that one go? [00:55:29] Speaker C: I think it did all right. I don't think it never got amazing. It was printed amazing like the, the ink, like it felt like it was on velvet. I didn't print that one myself. A guy called Simon Olden and Full Gamut down at Hobart used to do my prints before I got a printer. He's great. [00:55:46] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think it's an interesting point that you bring up and we've heard other guests on the podcast talk about it. M. Bon. Have I said that right? [00:55:58] Speaker C: Yeah, it's Maker Bon. [00:55:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Maker talked. Mika for sneaker M talked about how when she was living up in. Was it Kakadu or Catherine in the top end. [00:56:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it was up. [00:56:12] Speaker A: She was submitting to competitions because she like how you felt she was isolated in her community. She had one or two photographers. But to learn and to gain feedback, she used competitions as that education tool that she wanted to improve her landscape work. So she would enter competitions, not so much to win the awards. That's a nice byproduct, as you mentioned, you know, it's another certificate or another. Another line on your list of achievements. But it was a really interesting story from her about how much she did learn from entering competitions. And now, of course, she's a judge and as is Matt. [00:56:50] Speaker C: Yeah. And they're good friends of mine, so. But this is the catch. When you put something in, don't be precious about it. When you get that thing where I didn't like it because of this or that, you can take it or leave it. Don't get upset about it because it's somebody else's point of view and they've got a good reason potentially to say that. And maybe if you take a step back, you could go, oh, yeah, I see what you're talking about. Don't always have to agree. And I definitely with my work, you know, because it's so hit or miss, we've definitely had people completely miss the point. And I've had people really, really get the point. But. But the whole point of that is, is that you're getting opinions and you're getting generally if you're going to like, like a pipe or NZIPP or like one of the big names which do the. Do the feedback and that. And if you're putting stuff at A certain level, that feedback is invaluable, regardless if you take it or leave it. It's. It's somebody else's qualified. I'm gonna put that in letters, in quotes, you know, somebody who's learned to be visually acute to what they're looking at and being able to be able to express hopefully what they mean. So some people are really good at that, and some people are not so good. I think I see the middle of the road. [00:58:14] Speaker A: I think Chris Hopton Hopkins called it visual literacy. [00:58:17] Speaker C: That's the, that's the term. Yeah. Yeah, it's. And, you know, the people who are just going to see it on Instagram probably are not going to see that. Like, like somebody like a judge who's been looking at a lot of images. But it doesn't mean it's like that. That judge has had that vitriol. And so if you need to rise above the cr. You know, go above the cream, like rise to the top, beat the cream and go, next step up. You need to look at somebody's seen thousands of images and then go, oh, they've got a point. If I want to be better or if I want to be better than the rest, then maybe I should take some of this in. [00:58:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:58] Speaker C: Yep. [00:58:59] Speaker A: I think it's invaluable feedback. [00:59:01] Speaker D: It is. [00:59:01] Speaker B: It's also, like, personal preferences as well. Like, you have 100 judges look at it and you're gonna get 100 different answers, potentially. [00:59:10] Speaker C: If you talk to anybody, like Matt Maker or anybody attended a lot of competition of you, you get something that just rises top and may win the outright of everything. You put it into another competition and it could bomb completely. And that happens to everybody. And it's because, you know, it's all now the beholder. And I, I've put stuff into Head on. Right. Which is the big Sydney one. I never get anywhere in there because I don't match what they're looking for, as far as I can tell. So maybe it's our grapes or not. I just don't put stuff in there anymore. I don't. I, I, I realize that I don't feel like I fit in that space, but that's not, that's not a problem because that's their unique space. I'm still trying, to be honest, I'm still trying to work out what the hell my space is. I tend to do okay in New York and Sienna and Italy and stuff, but, yeah, still haven't worked it out. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Fair enough. [01:00:08] Speaker D: So when you say you seem to do all right, in these places. Is that. Are you talking about exhibitions? Competitions? Like when. [01:00:20] Speaker C: So I've won a. In the aipp when they had the APPA Awards, the national ones. I ended up two years in a row as a finalist in the portrait category and I had the high scoring print. One year in portrait I got a 97 out of 100, which blew me away. I. I thought they'll pull on my leg because I was volunteering at the time, running live streams of plenty of old and I thought they'll take the mickey out of me and. But it wasn't. It actually happened. But they. How those would work is that they would. You'd end up with. If you're in contention to win that take the top overall scoring people and put them in the room and they'd look at it as a kind of like a folio. And I, I got the privilege to do this a few times in other. Other years and you sort of discuss everybody's work as like. Because you had four images and mine were always very much completely different. So that could be a good or a bad thing. But like the one thing you could say about me is my work isn't atypically consistent in the way I present stuff. Everything is quite different in the art space anyway. Like commercially it's fine, but that doesn't lean well for those sort of comps to be able to win in the top end. If it's a single image that can win. I've come close to doing that as well and I have. I did win the Portrait Conference award, which was 10 grand, which was awesome. [01:02:01] Speaker A: I think I read about that in the. In the Launceston Examiner. [01:02:06] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, that was funny because my mate Scott. Scotty Gaston, who's an awesome photographer. Is he? He took the photo and he's like, take a photo of the artwork because it's a nude. So he put me in the background. Yeah. And it was hilarious because we went and did that in a cafe because we're mates and we had a coffee in that and because I had the artwork there, these two people walked in who didn't speak much English, they were Russian and they were the principal dancers for the. The Russian Ballet. The. And they invited me to go and shoot the Russian Ballet the following night. So I went backstage and shot the whole Russian Ballet from end to end. [01:02:47] Speaker A: Sitting there having a coffee. [01:02:49] Speaker C: And yeah, because they love the work. It was just like, wow, you know, that's a completely different story there. [01:02:59] Speaker D: Lucky it's a podcast. [01:03:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. We're only an Hour in. [01:03:03] Speaker D: Well, speaking of which, there's a couple of comments here. Since we're an hour in, might as well just check off a couple. Katrina says it is a long list. Bruce didn't tell you that he cracked out a rather elusive Gold award in his first National Photography Awards with aipp. Very impressive. [01:03:23] Speaker C: You're like, no, I, I, they were very hard to come across and I think I pissed my brother off in the end because I think I ended up with more than him. Gold awards than he did. [01:03:35] Speaker D: Competition. [01:03:36] Speaker B: Is he still shooting now? [01:03:38] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he shoots. That's, that's his primary thing. Family's mainly down. Beau Morris. Yeah, he's down that way. So he's in Melbourne and, and that. So yeah. [01:03:49] Speaker D: Was he entering the wedding stuff during the. [01:03:53] Speaker C: Yep. [01:03:53] Speaker D: Was that. Because that was a pretty big part of aipp. [01:03:57] Speaker C: Yeah. I think you did very well in there as well. [01:03:59] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. With all those, I'm trying to think of all those guys that were sort of big when, you know, when Jerry Jonas was. [01:04:07] Speaker C: Yeah. So Jerry and his brother Nick. Yep. I'm friends with Nick. Jerry took my portrait once and I never saw it, so I'm a little pissy about that, man. [01:04:19] Speaker D: Jerry, what are you doing? [01:04:20] Speaker C: Get, get. [01:04:21] Speaker D: He might still be post processing. He got, I think he got a little behind. What year was this? He might still be digging through it. [01:04:30] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe, maybe Intimidating. Anything over like your event and stuff like that. [01:04:38] Speaker D: That's it. Your event. Yeah. There was a whole crew of them that were just sort of. He like that are always in that award. Yeah. [01:04:46] Speaker C: Rocco Cora and stuff. Yeah, Rocco's a good guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:04:50] Speaker D: There was, there was a ton and it was, yeah, it was pretty, pretty competitive. It seemed like amongst all those guys to, to keep leveling up with the award side of things. Yeah, yeah. [01:05:02] Speaker C: And like they, they earn it because it's the work they produce is insane. [01:05:07] Speaker D: Insane. [01:05:08] Speaker B: And their style as well, like is. [01:05:10] Speaker D: Yeah. Is like tough to produce on a wedding day. [01:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:17] Speaker D: And I just want this one other comment too. Just while we're, while we're going. Rick Nelson says, I love when someone can be unapologetically themselves in photography instead of following trend. Trends. [01:05:28] Speaker C: So. Yeah. Well, thank you. Because yeah, otherwise it's, I, I went through that trend thing like I think we've all done and yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't want to play that game anymore. I just shoot for me and trying weird stuff and that. So yeah, I look at that Instagram and It's just like I don't have a lot of followers and that, but people seem to like it when I put weird stuff up. And I even got like, there's a street photo on there from last week. [01:05:58] Speaker D: I saw that. [01:05:59] Speaker C: That was fun. We had the first lot of fog in here. I was like, I am going out with the camera. [01:06:06] Speaker D: So you do a little bit of street photography. [01:06:08] Speaker C: I should. I love street photography, mate. I love it. I just don't do it often. I do like haven't. I'm very hit and miss on this. But I try to do like a photo walk here in Launceston. Like I just call it Launceston Casual photo walks. And sometimes I'll get like three, three or four months. Like once a month I'll get them going and it's. And then I'll fall off the edge of the planet for six months. Like I've. I think I've done four months since I did the last one. But yeah, just go out and shoot stuff. I give. There's a guy called Craig Wetchen in Melbourne who's another guy you should talk to at some point. He's. Who was part of the app. But he was also. He was a photographer, NASA and stuff like that. He and. And he taught Swinburne and stuff and like just awesome guy. And he. He started doing walks for well, being in Melbourne. He does it I think once a month and he's been doing it ever since and lots of people go to it and I just went, you know what? I'm just going to do that here. But he's just really good at being consistent. [01:07:15] Speaker B: Life. Life gets in the way sometimes. [01:07:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. [01:07:20] Speaker D: What's. What's your. What's your go to sort of camera and lens when you just. If you're just rocking around for a street walk. [01:07:31] Speaker C: The main camera I use for stills is a Sony A7 R3. It's a bit longer than tooth. I've got an R2 there as well, but the batteries are pretty much cactus on it and I have more lenses than I care to admit. But the main one I tend to use as a bang around lenses. A35.1.8. The Sony and I use that a lot for video as well with the. Tied with the 80.81.8 because they don't have any focus problems and breathing and stuff and they just match really well. But I. I've kind of got cinema glass. I've got all sorts of stuff if I'm going out doing weird ICM stuff and that I'll use my 24 to 105 F4 and sometimes put an ND on that as well, like a variable ND. But yeah, some days I just go out and go, okay, which lens do I want to try today? I want to use the 20 mil. I'm going to use the 400 mil. I don't take the 600 mil out though. I've got a Nikkor 600 Fold 4 sitting down here in a box. It's huge. It's like seven kilos of glass. [01:08:44] Speaker D: What do you have that for? [01:08:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it was, was technically not mine, but my mates never asked for it back. It's fully manual focus, has no eye. It's like. It's from the 80s. It's like a. Oh, cool. It's. It's. I think it was used at the 80s Olympics or something like that. It's. It's nuts. And it has got two teleconverters with it as well. I have tried to do some weird stuff with it. I have shot portraits across the stadium and people's faces end up looking like they're a pancake because it's so flat, which is kind of fun. I've used it for a lot of video work, shooting into paddocks and stuff like that, or across waterways. Gotta be real careful though, because obviously it's so long that it can any bump. I've done a lot of science work with it. I've shot in wave tanks and stuff to get close ups of waves hitting boys and stuff like that for science and stuff. So I ended, I was a finalist in a science photography award for that stuff. Because in Launceston there's the Australian Maritime College, which is one of the only colleges, research hubs in the country for maritime stuff. And got friends who are professors and work there and stuff like academics. So occasionally they go, can you come and have a look at this cool thing and bring your camera? And I go, yes, I can. [01:10:09] Speaker D: So, okay, so a 7R3 for stills and obviously just a truckload of cameras for your cinema stuff. [01:10:17] Speaker C: Yeah, A7, A7 S3 as my B cam. The FX6 sitting over here is my A cam. And then mix and match what I need to. But I'm. I was a Canon shooter. I had a. I got 5D Mark III over there. But when Canon took forever to actually get onto the video game and upgrade and Sony were like kicking over like I, my. I fell on a drink at a shoot and. And the camera had to be sent into the service and I just bought a A7s because they were the low light kings and they had all these cool things and I was like have a go that. And at the time Sony had a promotion which was really clever of them that if you bought the S you get a Metabones Canon adapter for free. [01:11:06] Speaker D: Yeah, I remember that. [01:11:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up using that for video work and. And slowly ended up just end up because Canon took so long to get the game together that I ended up transitioning to Sony and it took me a good four years before I bought any native glass. But when I did I was like why did I, why did I wait so long? But, but I've shot with Ari, I've shot red. I've shot with everything you can pretty much think of at different points in time. Done. I've done massive. I shot with the Titan for insta360 for, for the planetarium show a couple years ago. Like it's worth 24 grand just for the body before you get everything else. I was like. And the guys who had it wouldn't let us take it from Victoria to Tasmania without somebody flying to them, taking it off them and bringing it. They wouldn't ship it. They were like so scared of it being damaged. Yeah. So I'm very agnostic. It's just Sony is where I've ended up. So I'm happy to shoot Fuji. I'm happy to shoot Nick on. Nick on have let me gear Olympus of L Big Gear OEM systems now I've got a good rapport with most of the manufacturers. It's just, I'm just. That's just where I've landed. Yeah. [01:12:23] Speaker A: So can I ask you a question? Of all the, you know, we're hearing that you have worked in a, in a very diverse field of genres and styles and approaches to photography and video making. What's been the one that's caused you the one sort of genre that's that you think, you know, I want to go back and master that more. You talked earlier about your perfectionism. Is there something that you've like, is it, you know, you've. You've gotten a taste of doing science photography. Is that something you want to explore more? Is there another genre Talk to us about that. [01:12:58] Speaker C: I think the one I and I have been going back to where I even started playing with it again like not last week and the weekend before is macro and science stuff. I did a 90 minute film for Baker Street Festival which was using cloud tanks and stuff. Cloud tanks is the way special effects for clouds and stuff were done back in the day like Close Encounters, the Third Kind and the clouds in End of Raiders, the Lost Ark and stuff like that before CGI Ghostbusters and things. So we ended up making that and it's. I did with macro and I did it with lighting and stuff and it came out really good. Like it's cool. But currently playing with my daughter who's almost 11 and building I'm making ferrofluid to play with that macro to the next level. Like how can I make interesting ideas and video and. Or steals with that? How. How can I got a lauer 100 mil two times over here, similar lens which I really want to take that to the next level and take it like I've seen what people are already doing with it but I want to move it further. And one of the big things which is not photography based but I'm really keen on is mixing and matching that with. It's basically plotting using pen plotters and stuff. So. So if you look at. I don't know if you can pull up the Instagram again. I can talk through it a little bit. [01:14:36] Speaker D: I'll go to Greg if you want. Yeah. [01:14:38] Speaker C: Because this makes it a bit more obvious. Sorry for people listening. So this I got when I almost won. I had that high scoring print at Appa. People told me that people were going to try and copy my style and that I need to change because everybody tries to copy the person who did really well. Scroll down, scroll down, scroll down, scroll down. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Go up. How do the guy looks like? It's Fire legs walking. So a bit higher. [01:15:10] Speaker D: I was like where that one there. [01:15:14] Speaker A: In the middle there? [01:15:14] Speaker C: Yep, yep. So that's a photography technique mixed with programming technique where the program traces the raw image to nut the lines out of either luminosity or a color channel or hue or whatever I tell it to. And so I'd bring the raw image in, I get the trace and then I'll sandwich it together and then I'll edit out what I don't like. So that. That's because I got told the style I was doing, everybody was going to copy it. They didn't, thankfully. But I'd already gone looking for something to change my style up and that was that. So I've been wanting to take that because I have the line work as well as the original photo and actually instead of just sandwiching it in Photoshop, print the actual underlying photo and then use a plotter to draw the lines on top of the of the Print. That's. That's what I want to do, but I haven't got the machine yet to do it. But it's also like mathematically and programically going to do my head in. So I've been putting it off for quite a while. [01:16:22] Speaker D: Oh, my gosh. And I don't know how you get the first of all the ideas to do this sort of stuff, but then the drive to figure it out. It sounds just daunting. [01:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, just muck around. Don't be precious if it doesn't work. [01:16:43] Speaker D: You say that I'm imagining more like when you say you, like, learn, learn new things. I'm imagining you just. It's like matrix style. You, like, plug in and you're like, all right, load, load. How to do fine art prints. Okay, all right. Now I know I watched way too. [01:17:00] Speaker C: Much YouTube and we've bought way too many master classes too. But also, like, I've had times where, like, because of AIPP and I made that network, I've been able to ring up, say I had a color issue once and I rang up a guy called Robert Copper, who's a great portrait artist out of Canberra, and fashion photographer. And we just try. We just worked it out over time, just talking to each other because he was having the same problem as well. It was to do with Capture one and calibration, because at the time X Write didn't have a calibration system and so it was like building linear profiles and stuff like that. But it was cool because both of us had a bit of knowledge but neither of us had the answers. So between us, we were able to piece things together a little bit. And that's part of the community thing as well. And we didn't know if we'd get it. And to be honest, it was such a pain in the ass in the end, I don't think either of us used it, but we worked something out which was really cool. [01:18:05] Speaker D: And you learned something. [01:18:07] Speaker A: You did and did you provide that. [01:18:08] Speaker C: Feedback to Capture one was an X. Right. More of an issue than Capture one, to be honest, which is now Calibrite. So different company now. Yeah, yeah. [01:18:20] Speaker A: Very cool. [01:18:22] Speaker D: What else? I have some. I've got some things written down, you know, what I wanted to know about. Do you shoot with anamorphic lenses and have you ever experimented with them for stills? [01:18:36] Speaker C: I haven't. I've looked at them many times. I don't use them in my video production work because I don't think anything I produce needs it. I think they're very gimmicky. At the minute. Like there are some cool stuff you can do with it, but there's a lot of limitations to it. And I think people very much. And this is. Goes back to following trends. People grab stuff to follow trends and they do that in the video world, in the creative world, just as much as they do on the stills world. They're not thinking about why they're using such a focal length or like that sort of thing. If it's there to help you tell a story, that's what should be used for. If it's there just because it looks cool, then it's not useful and it can be detrimental because it's so wide, depending on what aspect ratio you get. Is a really, really good example if you go online explaining this, which is to do with Jurassic park and their subsequent new movies. [01:19:37] Speaker D: So the original. [01:19:38] Speaker C: Yeah, so the original Dracula park is actually quite a square image and how it was shot, it's. I think it's only 16 by 9, which is. So people look small and the dinosaurs look tall because the frame is quite high. Whereas if you were shooting it in anamorphic, which is what the new ones do, the dinosaurs don't have the head space to actually look tall anymore. And you take. So it's the same way when you use your focal lengths to tell a story and that you could shoot everything in water, you could shoot everything in close up. But, you know, unless there's a reason to one or the other or you need to mix and match you. You don't need to use everything. You shouldn't have to use just the one thing. You need to work out what works for the story. So if you're working in a video production and like full team with everything, like for TV or film, you're going and you work out the lenses and package you want to put together and there would be a consideration to what you are telling, how you were wanting to tell the story. It's not just because it looks cool and 2, 3, 5 to 1 or whatever. It's. Yeah. So in long story short, no, I haven't. I'd like to play Suray or anybody want to give me some to play with? That'd be fun. I reckon it'd be interesting for some of the weird stuff I do, but it's not been a priority. Oh, we've got a thunderstorm above me. [01:21:02] Speaker A: I. I know a person. [01:21:03] Speaker D: Cool. [01:21:04] Speaker C: Cool. [01:21:06] Speaker D: Dennis Smith's in the chat. He says all the lenses all the time. [01:21:09] Speaker C: Dennis and I get along very well and just. [01:21:14] Speaker D: I should have Said this at the start of that, of that little question for any of those that don't know, including probably me mostly as well, can you quickly explain what an anamorphic lens is? If they've, if they've seen this sort of stuff popping up on, on YouTube creators channels and saying stuff like that. What. What are they? [01:21:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay, so traditionally an anamorphic lens. So. So most of the lens, all the lenses you usually use are called spherical. So the actual, the actual glass inside your lens goes concave and convex to bring it down to a circle onto the image sensor or the film plane. So that's traditional work. So somebody realized that back in the day they could fit more image onto a bit of celluloid if they squish it and then they re expand it when they project it and that's what it will say. Well, the lens does is it optically squishes the light rays into, from a wider space, into a tighter space. And then the projector then has the lens, the opposite lens to say to expand it back out. And that's the reason why you get the widescreen now. You get some really cool artifacts out of that. Like the flares are really, you know, like J.J. abrams got really famous for putting flares across his image and that because you also your B in the background isn't circular anymore, it's. It's cat side a lot of time. And the other thing it does is you can do focus shifts where it feels like people are squishing and that. You know, you've watched things which feel like the, the image is distorted as it's pulled focus. Not so much the severance stuff, that's a sort of slightly different way of doing things, but it gives you this weird feeling when you do it. So it was a gimmick basically on how to make cinemas more relevant back in the day because you can do Panavision, Cinescope and stuff like that on the. The catch 22 of that is, is that film is whatever, whatever you project on the film is what's captured. There is no boundary in the film in the negative. It's. It just, it's what's exposed. So taking a bit of celluloid and exposing it shallower but higher and then expanding it out actually was an economy of scale. You could do some more with it. Whereas on a digital sensor, unless you've got a thing called open gate where you get the full sensor height, you don't get the same amount of ratio. And that's the reason why a lot of the lenses out there you're getting for the full frame cameras like our digital cinema cameras and that are only like, like an aspect ratio of two because they're being digitally cropped in the sensor before they're saved. They're not giving the full height of the sensor. So when they say open gate, instead of having the 16 by 9, even though it's a 10 by 12 sensor, whatever it is, they're actually capturing the whole sensor. And then you put this squished image circle on it and then you'll get this massive frame. So reds Arris and that can do that and like the Sony Venice, but our like smaller center line lenses or if you're using a mirrorless or a dslr, don't do that. So you. There's not as much return for it, but it still looks cool and you can do some funky things with it. But the one caveat is on top of that is the focus distance that I think a lot of the new ones are a little better. It's actually quite long. You can't. The minimal focus distance is actually not as tight as you want it to be. And that's just an aspect of the optics. Right, yeah, makes sense. Mud. [01:25:07] Speaker D: I got 6% of that, which I think is quite good, considering. Yeah, no, that does. It definitely helps because I was doing some reading about it the other day and I was starting to get the idea like I didn't realize what was involved in essentially that process of like squeezing and then de. Squeezing the image to be able to utilize these anamorphic lenses that everyone seems to be make. Every company seems to be bringing them out at the moment as well. That's the crazy thing. Everyone's sort of releasing new and they're. [01:25:36] Speaker C: Tighter and they're small and that because back in the day. Well, to get a pro like a cinema anamorphic lens, not. Not these new ones, like they're like, you know, 80 grand. Yeah, yeah. And that's for one focal length. So yeah, they're not cheap and they're heavy and they're hard to use and you know, you got to shim the lens and do all these sort of crazy things to make them work really well on the more traditional lenses anyway. [01:26:03] Speaker D: Yeah, very interesting. I actually. Oh, you go. Greg, My questions. [01:26:09] Speaker A: I just. I just want to get a little bit of a crystal ball moment we're seeing in. In modern TV and film. So you mentioned Severance. It's a bit of a family favorite here for us. Severance. We recently watched Adolescence, the UK miniseries also. What's the what's his name? Rogan. Seth Rogen, Hollywood studio. [01:26:39] Speaker C: Studio, that's it. Yeah. [01:26:40] Speaker A: Studio. It's all being shot with a single focal distance. I think it's like a 20 mil or 21 mil or something. We're seeing filmmakers and we've probably always seen it, but I think with social media, we get more of the behind the scenes stuff of what's going on as it's actually happening. Like, there's a. There's a severance behind the scenes. It's all stills, but you're getting a very good look at what's going on, you know, behind it. So filmmakers, I guess my point is filmmakers are employing dynamic strategies to create captivating images. So where do you see the industry? Where do you think the next breakthrough is next for cinematography? [01:27:20] Speaker C: Huh? That's a question I wasn't expecting to be asked. I actually don't know. Like, I think the nice thing about the. The budgeting stuff, the way TV's been made now, is that they're getting chances to explore. Like, severance was really good. Mr. Robot's a great example of really being off kilter and trying different things and really playing to the different styles of storytelling. I think people, networks and that are much more interested in how to tell a story. I'm sorry if that's getting noisy because I am in a tin shed. I don't know. Like, I think it's now just comes down to. To people experimenting and trying different things. I don't know what the next place is going to come out with. I'm not in those talks. I am part of the acs, but not that I get to talk to people about this stuff. Wow, it's bucketing down. I apologize. [01:28:31] Speaker B: It's not too. It's not too loud in this end. Oh, there it goes. [01:28:35] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. I can't hear anything. I'm going to get headphones. Give me a sec. [01:28:41] Speaker D: Yeah, that's so good. [01:28:44] Speaker A: Just while Bruce is taking a moment. [01:28:47] Speaker D: Yeah, I'll mute him just to save the people who are on audio only. [01:28:51] Speaker A: Just a reminder that you are watching or listening to the Camera Life podcast. This is episode 75, proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps out of Bendigo Victoria, makers of fine leather camera straps. And yeah, look, head to Luckystraps.com if you're keen on getting yourself a new camera strap. And make sure you look at the personalization options, you can make your strap your own. And the team in Bendigo, Justin, Jim and Yelena will take care of it. Hands on. [01:29:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:29:22] Speaker A: And get it shipped out to pretty much anywhere in the world. Is that right, boss? [01:29:27] Speaker D: Anywhere, Anywhere. [01:29:28] Speaker B: If you order one now, we'll ship it tomorrow. [01:29:31] Speaker A: Yep. [01:29:31] Speaker D: Yeah, actually. [01:29:35] Speaker B: Use code Jim. [01:29:37] Speaker D: Look, you can use any of the codes, but vote with your wallet for who your favorite is. [01:29:41] Speaker C: Vote Jim. [01:29:44] Speaker A: Oh, damn it, Bruce. [01:29:49] Speaker C: I'm all for the underdog. [01:29:52] Speaker D: He is the underdog. [01:29:53] Speaker C: That's right. [01:29:53] Speaker D: He shoots Nick on. He needs all the help he can get. [01:29:59] Speaker C: Julie Crimson will knock on your door and say what? [01:30:01] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She lost me. Unfortunately, I was. I was a Nick on Nikon guy and she lost me to Canon. They wooed me. [01:30:14] Speaker C: Sorry, I don't know where we're up to. Yeah, I can't remember just talking about. [01:30:18] Speaker A: Interesting cinematography approaches and I think, you know, I think it's wonderful that we're seeing more of it, but also that we are seeing the behind the scenes stuff. I think that's. I think that adds to the mysticism of storytelling in some ways. I mean, some people will avoid that sort of stuff completely. They don't want to know what magic went into making the hallway running scene in Severance or, you know, the fact that they employed this massive. I don't know what it's called, but this robotic device held the camera. [01:30:47] Speaker C: The robot armies in Melbourne have that. And I really want to play with it. Yeah. [01:30:51] Speaker A: So there's, you know, and, you know, adolescence. We've talked about that. I think with the past guest about how I think every episode is a single shot. [01:30:59] Speaker C: It's a single shot. I, I actually really liked Adolescence for a production standpoint. But the V. The vision of it is impressive. But the audio is way more impressive than just the people. And that's the only reason I realized that is Ursa who do the straps and lab hiding stuff and that. It's one of the. One of the industry standards. They. They did a hour and a half chat with three of the production stuff and they talk through every episode and it's way more complicated than you would ever expect. [01:31:39] Speaker A: Ridiculous. [01:31:40] Speaker C: And it's because I'm an audio guy. Right. So. But yeah, I. I was so impressed by it. We haven't had a storm like this in a year. [01:31:51] Speaker D: Is that tin? Is that. Is that roof gonna hold up? [01:31:54] Speaker C: I'll hold up, but it's just so noisy. I'm sorry. [01:31:58] Speaker D: That's all right. [01:31:59] Speaker B: I wish we were getting it here. [01:32:01] Speaker D: Anyone that's in with us now is in with us no matter what. [01:32:03] Speaker B: Actually, guys, you're not leaving. [01:32:08] Speaker D: All right, let's. I. I have a I have a completely unrelated question to photography but still on the movie front. You got any, you got any favorite movies to talk about for us? You got any like all time faves? Whether it comes to production, cinematography or just story. Anything, just whatever comes to mind. Must sees from Bruce Mo, I wish. [01:32:30] Speaker C: You asked me this before. I would have got a list for you. I've seen as I was a movie podcaster for a long time I and I've seen a lot of stuff depends on what you want. [01:32:43] Speaker D: That's. This is how I would answer the question. I think I said this to someone the other day where I'd be like I wouldn't. I. I have so many different opinions but I don't have like a top a top three movies or anything like that ever. [01:32:55] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:32:55] Speaker A: What's your comfort movie then? What's your fallback? Never let you down like Back to. [01:33:01] Speaker C: Future 2 or Ghostbusters or what? I showed my daughter Raiders a few weeks ago. Maybe a bit young but she was, I pre warned her about the face mount and stuff. So she was cool. She's only 10. [01:33:16] Speaker A: Do you feel tempted to talk her through how they actually achieved that shot. [01:33:20] Speaker C: And oh yeah, yeah, I am so keen on that stuff but she's seen me do stuff like if I can I'll get her involved in little things that show her like when we're in Covid and lockdown, what she was like five or something and I, I got, we were locked down, we're bored and I, I set up a two cameras thing in the lounge room and that and I did an ask Ebony, that's her name anything I put out to our Facebook and just broadcasted it and because I'd worked with so many celebrities and people in industry and stuff like that who are on my Facebook page, they all just were bored and they were like well ask Ebony stuff. And so ebony being a 5 year old I loved her up and I put the lights up and she was interested for as much as she could be at that age. And then it went off the rails. She ended up in the giggle fits went out, grabbed every plush toy she owned and she owns a lot of plush toys and introduced them to the world. [01:34:20] Speaker D: Wow. [01:34:22] Speaker A: It was just waiting. [01:34:23] Speaker C: Very wholesome. It was very wholesome. Top movies, movies, movies. Come I'll have a think. I'll come back to it. [01:34:34] Speaker A: Have a think. So what's on the cards for you next? What's your next next adventure? Next gig? Next Next idea. [01:34:44] Speaker C: Next experiment playing with that Ferro fluid stuff. I've got to work out a decent surfactant for it just in chemistry land and then see if I can make some cool stuff with that and. May never happen, but we'll see. I've been asked to judge the Finnish Professional Photography Awards. I don't know if they announced that or not, which was weird out of the blue thing to be asked. They're not flying me there though. Bummer. I'm doing Australian Photographic Prize, which is currently open for entries. Recommend people jump on that if they want to get some good feedback and see some. [01:35:28] Speaker A: You're judging or entering? [01:35:31] Speaker C: I'm judging. I've got to get my act together and enter as well. And then I am going over in August to New Zealand for their photo awards as a judge and a speaker, running some workshops there, so. And then later I'll do BFOP because, you know, it's silly, it's fun. [01:35:51] Speaker D: Sweet. [01:35:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:53] Speaker A: And let's face it, I think I saw you more often at BFOP hanging out around that food truck than anywhere else. I think I've got some behind the scenes photos of you maybe just hanging around near the food truck. I don't blame you. [01:36:08] Speaker C: It was a great food truck. It was good. They definitely did good. Pulled pork and stuff. I was probably talking to Dennis about crap. [01:36:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah? Yeah. [01:36:19] Speaker D: Speaking of. Dennis says, love you guys. Gotta fly. [01:36:22] Speaker A: See you, Dennis. [01:36:23] Speaker D: Love you too. Where are you flying to? Just kidding. [01:36:28] Speaker C: Yeah, he's got a cool workshop coming out. He just advertised. [01:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah, he does. [01:36:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:36:32] Speaker A: With Adam Edwards. [01:36:34] Speaker C: Yep. Jump on that. [01:36:36] Speaker D: I saw that. I was trying to click the link and they. The link wasn't a link. And I was like, what are you guys doing? When people put QR codes in in Instagram posts, you're like, how am I gonna scan this? Yeah. Not that they did that. They didn't actually do that, but they did the link. There was a link in a Facebook post, but the link was just the text and I was like, so where's. [01:36:56] Speaker C: Your QR code now for people who are watching on their phone for their Lucky Strike. [01:37:00] Speaker D: Hang on. It's for people who watch that. Doesn't anyone watch YouTube on TV? [01:37:06] Speaker C: Not with the amount of ads sometimes. [01:37:09] Speaker D: Oh, you got to have YouTube Premium. It's the only way to fly. Nah, it changed my life. It's way. It's worth so much more than other streaming platforms or whatever to never see a KFC cricket box ad or whatever other junk they put on there. It's just. [01:37:25] Speaker B: It's the best I need to do it. [01:37:27] Speaker C: I mean, all the gambling ads. [01:37:29] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. [01:37:31] Speaker C: Ridiculous amount of gambling ads. [01:37:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:34] Speaker A: Just as a side note on that. That baffles me that. That we allow gambling ads to go up, but then that every single gambling ad, by law, has to be followed by a warning about gambling. It just feels so counterintuitive. [01:37:50] Speaker C: It's like smoking ads. [01:37:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess it is. [01:37:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:53] Speaker A: It's just my little rant. One of my little pet hates. So, Justin, do you want to ask. Ask Bruce about the. The whole zombie apocalypse scenario, so I don't know. [01:38:06] Speaker D: Okay, fine, I'll ask. I don't think this is gonna. He's got so many different facets to image making in cinematography. I don't know how he'll choose sometimes. [01:38:19] Speaker C: Limitations. Yeah, don't worry about it. What would your. What, What? [01:38:26] Speaker D: What would your what. What camera and lens would. Would you pick for the. Documenting the zombie apocalypse in the. In the weirdest, most unique way that you could think of without getting your brains eaten? [01:38:37] Speaker C: Ah, see, you haven't asked me about one of the lenses I use all the time, which is my lens Baby Edge 80. So I use that a lot. I don't know if that'll suit me on the zombie apocalypse. [01:38:53] Speaker D: They're not super durable, the old lens babies. I don't know if that would survive an apocalypse. [01:38:58] Speaker C: This, this 600 is heavy, but God damn, you could kill something with it. [01:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, good, good for whacking. [01:39:05] Speaker C: And I could document things from across. Like when you throw. If I throw it on my old 7D and I put all the teleconverters on it, I think it's a 2100 mil equivalent. I could document them from like a top of a rooftop, from ways away. That. That'll work. And then if somebody gets close, I'll just drop it on. That'll. That'll work. [01:39:29] Speaker D: Okay. [01:39:32] Speaker C: Yeah, it'll. [01:39:32] Speaker D: It'll weigh you down though, when you're running. [01:39:36] Speaker C: Yeah, probably. I'm good at. I. I ran. I ran with heavy stuff to try. [01:39:43] Speaker D: It's been your career. [01:39:47] Speaker C: The day I. I bought an easy rig was the day my life got a lot better. I don't know if you guys have seen them before. [01:39:56] Speaker D: Is that the backpack one? [01:39:58] Speaker C: Yeah, you can actually see it here. That's the back here. [01:40:02] Speaker B: And it has a cable that comes down. [01:40:04] Speaker C: Has the cable comes down. [01:40:05] Speaker D: I was watching someone with one of those who had an inflatable light on the top of his. [01:40:09] Speaker C: Oh, God. [01:40:10] Speaker D: Yeah, so for like events or something, you know, so he's got like his mobile softbox. [01:40:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I've seen that on the top of it. Yeah. [01:40:18] Speaker C: I kind of get it. [01:40:19] Speaker A: One that has like two arms and he's got two soft boxes on it. On these arms. [01:40:23] Speaker C: Yeah. I just. They want to be like Doc Ock with lighting or something from Spiderman. I don't know. It's. [01:40:31] Speaker D: It's a serious setup. If you go and full lighting and everything just. You're just a portable studio. Production studio. [01:40:37] Speaker C: You get. You get to a door and you have to go and then walk through. Yeah. [01:40:43] Speaker D: Duck. Oh gosh. David Dare Parker in the comments. Who doesn't love a zombie apocalypse? Agree. [01:40:52] Speaker A: I think David's probably had to run with some gear given his work. [01:40:56] Speaker D: Yeah, we got to get him on eventually. Rick Nelson says I would use my Voigtlander 40 mil 1.4. Adapted to my Lumix S5 II with a cage on my camera so I have a proper metal brick if they get close enough. [01:41:12] Speaker C: Yeah, those Lumixes are still pretty bricky. [01:41:15] Speaker D: Hasn't he hasn't. It's not like he's thought this through at all. [01:41:18] Speaker A: No, not at all. No, no, no. Not specific. [01:41:20] Speaker C: Very vague. [01:41:21] Speaker D: So Rick coming to us from Brisbane, who I believe works in a camera store. [01:41:26] Speaker A: You say that about everybody. [01:41:28] Speaker B: No, no, no. [01:41:29] Speaker D: Only one other person. [01:41:31] Speaker C: Another person. I don't know. I don't know. [01:41:37] Speaker D: I knew it. I knew it was you. [01:41:40] Speaker C: So we're creating your own meta now. [01:41:43] Speaker D: Yeah, I know. This is amazing. The world changes to suit my strange brain that doesn't work properly. [01:41:49] Speaker A: Let's not do that. [01:41:55] Speaker D: Never worked in a camera store. [01:41:56] Speaker C: No. No, I haven't. That Voigtlander. Is it weather sealed? Because if it gets blood in it, you could be out of luck. [01:42:05] Speaker D: This is true. [01:42:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:42:07] Speaker A: And Rick does work in the camera store in Brisbane. So you can just replace it. Even if he gets blood in it, he, you know, he knows where to go to replace it. I. I've run out of questions, Jim. [01:42:21] Speaker D: I have more stuff. [01:42:22] Speaker C: Well, no, you can ask as much stuff as you want. [01:42:25] Speaker D: Yeah, I got more stuff. I do need to go to bed at some stage. But so. Okay. So we're talking about the future of. Greg was asking about the future of. Of cinema like broadly, which is a pretty big. It's a pretty big thing. I actually had an even bigger question about the future. But it was more around where you see the future of. Of both photo and video. Answer either or both. But also like the future of that for both. Where you see maybe art going but also where you see the business side of Things going like you've had a business that's evolved quite a bit over the years. You've had a business that's sort of slid from the cinema and even audio, like audio cinema, photo back now probably obviously more so video production. Like where do you see that going? Like how photographers are going to make money, do they need to do video? Is that their only chance in the future? And, and then what about the art side of things? [01:43:32] Speaker C: I think it's going to whittle down a lot of. Well, we're already seeing it. The amount of people who are doing it in a professional sense, we've seen that decline for quite a long time in a sustainable way. Like there'll always be people doing stuff, but I think video is always going to be, I think both are going to be around art wise. I think you'll end up with more people appreciating, especially the AI stuff, legitimate art made by the legitimate artists because it's going to be harder for people to stand out initially. But then people will appreciate the real work. Work more like it's, it's. I hate this word but that whole idea of bespoke craft where people appreciate the craft because it's, you know, it's a, it's something that's not made much anymore. I don't think we'll ever get to that level. But it's more like yes, I, I like this because it was made by somebody that has the story behind it, which has always been the way art's sort of been around. But it's, it's not going to be as commoditized as I think it will go back towards like artists being appreciated for the work they do. So video wise, anything that can be done with AI will probably get moved that way. If it's commercial imperative, it doesn't require true realism. And that's the same like product photography. A lot of it's been replaced with 3D. CGI like IKEA is all done with 3D modeling as an example. But anything that's bespoke, that needs to be created in video or stills will have to be done traditional way. And I've shot a lot of fine furniture and other and things like that. You're never going to be able to model that. Why would you? It's a one off or, you know, it's a special piece. The work I'm doing on the documentary work, I'm not going to tell a documentary if I just doing AI, I'm talking to people, I'm seeing what they're doing in the real world. It's not something I'm going to regenerate just because it's easier. It's not authentic. So I don't think in a lot of. In the new stuff as well, people documenting news now where there is going to be an outlet to make money off, it's a different thing. But I'm kind of like in a space that they need it to be authentic. There is no way around it. Whether that changes in the future or not, I'm not sure. But I don't think it's. The future's bad, but I do think it will be slightly different than we're experiencing now or what we had in the past. But you know, if you're good at your job and you're passionate about it and you have the right people around you, I don't think it's going to hurt us in the long run. And in reality it could strengthen. Strengthen what we make as well. So. Yeah. [01:46:24] Speaker D: Oh, I have two more. I have two questions. Follow ups. Which one first? The AI one first. Are you currently using AI for any of your business or for your. [01:46:39] Speaker C: I've been using. I've been using machine learning forever. Audio wise. It's been a godsend with the Rx isotope and other tools like that, which are production tools now with lots of, you know, the stuff we use to remove noise from video and stuff. Been using it forever. But it's not generative AI. It is, you know, I'm using it to enhance and you know, fix things. I'm not making it to make something. [01:47:07] Speaker D: Brand new like that scene out of Super Trooper where he's like, enhance. [01:47:14] Speaker C: I don't think Topaz goes that far yet. But you know, I'm pretty sure if you watched an ad, they probably say it does. [01:47:20] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh yeah. [01:47:23] Speaker C: Oh yeah. But Topaz is a good tool. It generally makes, you know, the sharpening and that does a good job and things. And it's not creating stuff. I think some of the newer stuff in there might do, but I've definitely had to use the remove AI like the remove tool in Photoshop for commercial work because I've shot stuff and they said I want that logo gone because it's out of brand or whatever because I've shot it in more of a documentary like coverage style and it's like, well, I'm not going to sit there and use the clone tour. I'll just use a bloody remove tool. That's what they want, that's what they get. So. So it's made things easier. But I'm not sitting there and going into chat GPT or whatever, Gemini and creating stuff. That's not what I do at all. That being said, I was watching something today about video production because I'm obviously making infographics and stuff like that and I was like, actually if I need to make icons or other like basic tools which I need to animate, I can get a kickstart on that by just generating those like graphs or whatever else out of that. So I might play with it a bit more. But I'm not going to be using it to create my work, if that makes sense. It's like using it to start the blank, get rid of the blank page issue, which is what a lot of us have. Like you get a blank page, you've got to write something. You go, I don't know where to start. But if you generate something and then you go back and go, well that's shit, I'm going to rewrite it. Unless you know what you're going to rewrite. [01:48:52] Speaker D: Yeah, can help just get the ball rolling. [01:48:54] Speaker C: Yeah, 100%. [01:48:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:48:56] Speaker D: Okay. [01:48:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:48:57] Speaker D: All right. Well then my other question was what about, have you ever worn or do you own an VR headset? And what do you think about where that's going when it comes to video production? [01:49:14] Speaker C: It's interesting. I played with virtual reality way back when I first tried to get off the ground in the 90s and the Amigas were running. Yep. I actually had a conversation about that on Tuesday for weirdness. So did you know there's a director's cut of that film? I didn't until Tuesday. Evidently it's really boring, but okay, somebody made a director's cut. I haven't used any of the new stuff just to. Haven't been around it or had any interest. But like the stuff I've shot for planetariums and stuff and I've got 360 cameras and stuff. I've got the producers in that have taken that footage and are playing with, making it into VR style presentations. I haven't been involved in those talks though. And that I've just handed it. When you're working commercial work, sometimes you hand over the stuff and you find out what they do with it later. And that was definitely one of them. [01:50:14] Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. All right. So it's not really, not really currently on your radar as, as like people aren't starting to ask you hey, how, you know, how are we going to, you know, make sure this works for that in the future or Anything. [01:50:27] Speaker C: When I did the planetarium stuff it was definitely in the mind that it would be a planetarium show. Plus it will go to VR. So I definitely scoped for it, but I didn't really. But it was always planetarium first, so that was my main focus. So I think there's some really cool stuff with it. I've seen healthcare stuff done with it which is really, really cool. Where say this was between Australia and Vietnam actually where healthcare professional could be in rural Vietnam but they don't have the skills or the training to do a certain thing. And somebody in Australia or remotely can be. They could have the. I think they were using the Microsoft Hololens at this time we're using. So it's augmented reality, it's not full VR. So it's like the Apple one but a bit more primitive where you could see what was in front of you but you could put a heads up display in your world. And so they'll be able to go, okay, bring up the drugs, you got the right drug and the dosage, check, check, check. So they're actually seeing in real time what the person was doing with their hands because it's from a first person point of view. And they'll be able to go, okay in front of their vision, draw on the patient virtually and go this is where you need to do this thing and this thing and this thing. And what in this healthcare professional was in another place in the world with their 3D happening in front of them. A first person view of what's going on, plus the documentation of what this person's needing to know like the patient's charts and stuff like that. So I've documented things like that. So there's really cool things out there which are you most of us don't know about. That's one I didn't know about until I shot some stuff on it. There'd definitely be stuff for like in mining and other commercial interest industries as well and that like I've been down mines and stuff and seen how they're working. Not so much the virtual stuff yet but with the remote operation stuff. Which is nuts. [01:52:21] Speaker D: Yeah. Yep. Interesting. Yeah, it's something. It's on my mind a bit and I know it'll be a lot longer. It's one of those things. It'll be a lot further away than people think. But then it'll also come faster than you think when changes do make. And if there's a shift in that direction of way more sort of AR or VR content, I think it's going to take a little while. It's not going to be. [01:52:48] Speaker C: A lot of people use AR already, but not in the goggle sense, like just with their phones. Like I use Sun Sunseeker all the time and things like that. [01:52:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, that's true. [01:53:00] Speaker A: I think that the biggest hurdle is, is the cost of the unit. You know, everyone that's tried to put something out, you know, they, they just can't produce it at a reasonable price that most consumers could, you know, pick one up and that in itself would then inspire and spur on a whole growth in the industry. But if it's not in enough people's hands, people aren't going to invest in it. And in the content creation side, I think that's also. [01:53:28] Speaker C: Remember when the AirPods first got launched and everybody said nobody's going to wear like a Q tip hanging out of their ear and stuff like that, but they're still like Apple's second biggest selling thing in the world. Like they're insane. I use them every day, all the day. But. But something in your ears. Even headphones, all big chunky headphones is different than covering your eyes. [01:53:50] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:53:51] Speaker C: It feels weird to see somebody with a bit of plastic in front of their face like this. [01:53:59] Speaker B: Yep. [01:53:59] Speaker C: We got kind of used to it with sunglasses but we do tend to find unless we're in a bright environment that it. Well, for me anyway, that can be full. Quite rude if you walk inside and you leave sunglasses on. Right, yeah, yeah. So I think there's a whole thing where maybe a generation or something just get used to seeing people with. And I know Apple tried to sort of mitigate this with their eyes, the weird eyes but you know, it's just going to be one of those things and I think with Google trying to their smart glasses and that, which I think they're still doing commercially in the background and Meta's doing their Ray Bans and stuff. I think there's that in between where you can see the eyes but it's still got the heads up display but it's not as full featured as I think Apple wanted to go. [01:54:43] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:54:47] Speaker A: Be interesting to see what happens. [01:54:49] Speaker D: Rick Nelson says, can you imagine shooting a wedding in VR for watching later? I mean that, that. [01:54:54] Speaker C: Do it now. Yeah, you do it now. Just stick your 360 camera on your top of your normal camera. [01:55:00] Speaker D: Yep. Stick it literally on the bride's head and then it's like all day. Bride view. You can be, you can be the bride. [01:55:10] Speaker A: It'll be like that guy that does the train videos. What's. You know, we talked about it last week. [01:55:17] Speaker C: Go get one of those really small. So this is for Jim. One of those small action cameras that Insta360 have, which people put on their pet collars and get it. Paint it, paint it wide or whatever. Make sure like. Like everything is invisible to the dress as possible or to the. Or to the groom. [01:55:34] Speaker D: Get the dressmaker to sew it into the dress. Make it part of the dress. [01:55:38] Speaker C: Yeah, yep. [01:55:41] Speaker D: Broadview. [01:55:42] Speaker C: There you go. [01:55:44] Speaker B: That'd be weird for groom view though. The other way. [01:55:47] Speaker C: Do it both ways. One each. [01:55:49] Speaker D: Yeah. And then just mesh it all together. [01:55:52] Speaker C: Yep. [01:55:54] Speaker B: That'd take a long time. [01:55:58] Speaker C: Oh, actually, I don't know. This is totally aside, but I thought this was really interesting. Blackmagic Design who make DaVinci, Resolve Studio and a bunch of other amazing stuff out of Melbourne actually, by the way, they're Australian company. [01:56:10] Speaker D: Are they? [01:56:11] Speaker C: Yep. [01:56:12] Speaker D: Seriously, I didn't know that. That's insane. [01:56:15] Speaker C: So they posted up a story today about the. You know the band Korn? Yeah. [01:56:22] Speaker D: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:56:24] Speaker C: Cool. They because blackmagic made a phone app, a camera app for the iPhone and now on Android and it goes into their cloud. So if you shoot something it can sync straight into cloud and go into your Resolve project, which is your editor and stuff. Korn got their fans at a concert to all download the app and shoot the concert instantly going up. And they got. Got something like 14 or something plus hours of their concert from fans point of view. Instantly. [01:56:56] Speaker D: Wow. [01:56:57] Speaker C: And I'm just like. Because I play with the app and I've used it for shoots and stuff like that as a third camera because it's Apple Log's actually pretty useful. I'm just like spinning on the possibilities. I can do with some of the stuff I got coming up. [01:57:12] Speaker D: So yeah, that's nuts that it's that kind of stuff that probably hasn't been leveraged to any kind of huge amazing way yet. We've got, you know, a thousand different perspectives of an event or something like that and then. But then how do you pull it together? But is that, you know, is that something that. That AI tools or something are going to be able to help with where it. It figures out it can hear the audio. [01:57:36] Speaker B: Time codes or something? [01:57:37] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:57:38] Speaker C: Doesn't need time code. [01:57:39] Speaker D: This one fits here, this audio fits here. And then it's suddenly it's like the. [01:57:43] Speaker C: Beauty of it is all the cameras are on their network's time, so they've got the same time of day. So the times are right. [01:57:50] Speaker B: The time. [01:57:51] Speaker C: Yeah, the time's right. You don't need tone code. Tone code's a problem anyway because people don't realize timecode isn't going to keep you in sync. There's a whole thing in there I could talk about. But. But nice thing about timecode is that everybody, when they hit record, they all start at the same spot. So. But yeah, you could use AI to literally get rid of anything that's out of focus or it's, you know, too much of back of people's heads and stuff like that. Have the pulsing focus going on. But I, I just. My brain just went, oh, why hadn't I thought of that? Like, I've done some cool stuff, but that one's so simple but so effective. [01:58:38] Speaker D: So tell me this, because Rick's just put this in there. Have the annoying family members that insist using the. Insist on using their cameras at weddings. Use that. [01:58:46] Speaker C: That's. You could probably. Where I was going with this actually. [01:58:49] Speaker D: Could you actually do that? Could you literally. And would it be easy enough to then put it into a project just in time order? Don't worry about, like, you're not doing automatically. [01:59:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:59:02] Speaker D: So you could just literally be like. [01:59:03] Speaker C: All right, this time. [01:59:05] Speaker D: Yep. This is the wedding day from start to finish, as filmed by the guests whenever they felt the need to take a clip. [01:59:10] Speaker C: Yep. [01:59:11] Speaker D: And it just is what it is. [01:59:12] Speaker C: Yep. [01:59:13] Speaker D: Oh, that would be epic. [01:59:14] Speaker C: So you basically give everybody a login to the cloud project and you set up their phones to do it. And it wouldn't be that hard. I think, I think there's some tips in that to get people over the line. [01:59:25] Speaker D: But then the great. Then every time trying to figure out how to do. [01:59:31] Speaker C: There is a hurdle there. But say. Say everything goes right. All the young youngins and stuff like that all use their phones and that. And they just use this app. It means that they get a copy, but everything goes up and it's ready as soon. It's literally within seconds. Depending on how you set up, you'll have it on a timeline in order for a multicam. [01:59:51] Speaker D: That is insane. That's a. That's a business right there. Because then all you need. Then all you need, if you like. I mean, you could do it unedited, but you could also just have a team of editors just, Just sort of slicing and dusting. Slicing, tidying it up. Hey, fix that audio. [02:00:05] Speaker B: But even if it sounds a good. [02:00:06] Speaker C: Shot, but even if you don't do the wedding, you do the reception. Yeah. Where it's all. All off the chain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'd be wild. All right, well, I've just thrown that at you. I want a commission. [02:00:23] Speaker D: You're gonna have to help us do all the work. [02:00:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I can take you to technicals, but I'm not actually going to go shoot a wedding or work on a wedding. [02:00:30] Speaker D: Jim will do that bit. [02:00:33] Speaker A: No pressure. Jim. [02:00:37] Speaker D: That'S nuts. [02:00:38] Speaker C: That's a real. [02:00:39] Speaker D: Yeah, there's so many possibilities with that I'll have to look into. So a corn going to do something with it? Yeah, they got a plan to do some sort of. [02:00:47] Speaker C: Yeah, they've already done something with it, I think, I don't think they put it out, but yeah, I only saw it this afternoon on blackmagic. Posted it like, I don't blame them because it's such a cool use of their tech. Yeah, I was like, that's awesome because that's, that's the thing with the university stuff I've been doing, going right back to the beginning is I've got the leeway and the flexibility that I, I pitch ideas at them constantly of how to do things differently and that's been really useful because they're academics or whatever and they don't think about it in a commercial way and they don't have the knowledge of this technical stuff we can do. And sometimes it's really simple, like, but they never thought of it and, and when I go searching for it across the academic space, I've never, I can't find it. So I'm like, well why? Because this is simple. But, but it's because they don't think in the same space as we do. The really good example I've got is I filmed three different clients in a physio space with different things with a physio physiotherapist running through. Like it was like flying the fly on the wall, sort of two camera shoot, just observational. And I watched it and I went, okay, as a learning activity you can watch it and analyze what's going on in the space and what the physio is doing because they're not talking to camera, it's purely a session. And I went like what, what are you thinking? I'm thinking in my head what is the physio thinking when they're doing this? Obviously I'm not a physio. I asked her to come in and watch back the videos, the split screen videos and comment. And it was. And the way I put it in my brain was I'm just going to do a YouTube reaction video, but I'm just going to do it on healthcare, on somebody actually doing a real world job. And she sat there and we got 11 videos of her talking through all these clients and these interactions. And I presented it to him because it was off my own bat. And I presented it to everybody and they went, we're taking that to South Korea, we're taking it to Belgium. We're writing papers on it. We're doing this. And I'm like, this is. This is just normal thinking for me. This is for them. It's so outside the box. And that's why I think collaborating with people who do not live in this industry is really beneficial because you both bring different things to the table. And like, I'm not trying to be up myself there, but that's the sort of thing you can do when you get the leeway and the permission and the trust to experiment and try things. [02:03:18] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And not. Not just fit within a framework that was predetermined of like, no, no, we have. The videos all have to be this long and they just like this. And this is how we do things. [02:03:27] Speaker B: And just copy this one that our, like our competitor has or someone in a different state has. Yeah, we want it just like that. [02:03:35] Speaker C: So take that to photography. Let's bring it back to photography. If you want to collaborate with somebody, you could say, I want to do a fashion shoot, that's fine. Like, and you got the clothes or whatever else and that, but maybe pull in a dancer or something. Don't get your atypical model and go a bit ham on it and try something different. Yeah, Bring those personalities in. Try. Like that's just being kind of not left too left of center there, but trying something different. Don't, don't be afraid to go try stuff with. By yourself or with others who don't fit the mold or what you're initially thinking because they're receptive and open to talking and trying things, then you don't. You might find something completely different you never thought of before. And that can take you on a whole different space. [02:04:23] Speaker A: Think it's good advice. [02:04:25] Speaker D: That's great advice. Should. Should we end there? That's a pretty. [02:04:29] Speaker C: It's pretty profound. [02:04:31] Speaker A: I think that's quite a neat bow with ending in the episode. [02:04:34] Speaker D: I mean, unless there's anything you want to bring up. Bruce, is there anything else you want to talk about? [02:04:38] Speaker C: I don't think we talked enough about Fujifilm, to be honest. [02:04:42] Speaker A: It's overrated, apparently. [02:04:44] Speaker B: Who I haven't heard of them. [02:04:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:04:47] Speaker A: Hey, I just for the record, I'm. I'm not the one that brought the, brought it up. [02:04:52] Speaker C: Okay. [02:04:54] Speaker A: I was staying very quiet. I was trying to be good. [02:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Ever since we said it's coming out of the, the Japan budget. [02:05:01] Speaker D: Yeah, he's got very quiet. [02:05:03] Speaker C: Yeah, you're very quiet. But if Fuji. Fuji want to send me one of the, one of the big medium formats to play with to make this weird stuff, I'll happily have a go at. [02:05:12] Speaker D: That because, I mean, it would be, it'd be a very cool camera for that. Get the extra. Come on. Come on, Fujifilm. [02:05:24] Speaker A: Just. [02:05:24] Speaker C: Just saying, like I, I said, I'm agnostic, but I will talk about the good, good things about any camera I get because as long as they're good, I like Fuji. I just don't have any. I have actually looked at the. What is it, the 100 V6 or whatever. The, the, the. I want a range find basically, but I've just never had the money to do it. Yeah, yeah. [02:05:50] Speaker A: 106 is pretty nice. [02:05:52] Speaker D: It's. [02:05:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's at the top of my bucket list. [02:05:58] Speaker D: Nev Clark says terrible junk. Absolute junk cameras. And that was the end of his comment. Rick. Rick Nelson says just Jim and Justin, low key, rocking the Fujifilm green glow. [02:06:10] Speaker C: Yeah, kind of. [02:06:12] Speaker D: That's a good point. [02:06:14] Speaker B: We'll have to change that, dear. [02:06:18] Speaker D: Cool. [02:06:18] Speaker A: All right, look, I think on that note, we're going to wrap up, I think tonight's episode. For any of you listening or watching along live or later, I'm sure you agree that Bruce has demonstrated absolute stunning amount of knowledge about our industry, but also bringing. Drawing in other learnings that he's gained from other parts of his career and his journey to where he is today. And I think there's a lot to learn from that. But, but above all else, I just want to thank you, Bruce, for joining us tonight for such a fascinating conversation and, you know, sharing with us your story and your journey. It's. It's meant a lot to us. So thank you very much. [02:07:03] Speaker C: Well, thanks, guys. Thanks for having me and not roasting me just because I roast you guys in the comments. Because it's funny. [02:07:09] Speaker B: No, we, we appreciate you being in the comments. [02:07:12] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [02:07:13] Speaker D: Please don't leave us. You got to keep. Help us keep the other shows rolling. [02:07:18] Speaker C: I try. I'm not always here, particularly on a Thursday morning. I'm sorry I couldn't roast Tom on Thursday. [02:07:27] Speaker D: He roasted himself. [02:07:29] Speaker C: Yeah. It'd be interesting to see who talked more him or me, because I'm pretty sure I'm up with him on this one. [02:07:37] Speaker D: We'll have to get you both on for a talk maybe. [02:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll get you on and we'll just leave. [02:07:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:07:47] Speaker D: See how long we can keep the stream going for. [02:07:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:07:50] Speaker D: Yeah. Philip says thanks. Thanks, Philip. [02:07:53] Speaker C: Nice. [02:07:53] Speaker B: Philip. [02:07:54] Speaker C: Rick says thanks. [02:07:55] Speaker D: Thanks. [02:07:56] Speaker A: Yep. So look, on that note, we're going to close off, we're going to play a little jingle, we're going to do a little dance, and then we're all going to go to bed because we're old bearded men. Well, most of us. Just to recap, this is the Camera Life podcast. This is episode 75 or has been episode 75, available on YouTube. Please make sure you like and subscribe. And tickle the bell so you get notifications of upcoming videos in a couple of days. It'll also appear on your favorite audio podcasting platforms, so be sure to check it out if you haven't yet. Coming up, we've got some great guests coming up in the coming weeks. We've got Jesse Hisco from bfop. Jesse is a. He does a lot of elopement and adventure weddings, so it'd be great to hear from him. We've got. Who else we've got? We've got Matt Crummonds. Now, we've had Matt on a couple of times, but we've never actually delved into his personal story. So we're going to peel some of those layers back with Matt in the coming weeks. Yeah, we've got a. We've got guests booked up for the next three or four months, which is great. So stick around and. [02:09:04] Speaker D: But that being said, if there's someone you want us to get on, let us know. I saw there was one in the comments from earlier. I've made note of that. I have to. [02:09:13] Speaker C: Yep. [02:09:13] Speaker D: Gavin Blue from Heartfelt Photography. That's a great idea. So, yeah, anyone else, if you've got any suggestions, let us know. [02:09:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And, and remember, enter Jim for lucky strap Discord. [02:09:29] Speaker D: Yeah, whatever. I'll accept that. Or, or somehow screenshot this on your phone, then get someone else's phone and scan the QR code next to Bruce's head. [02:09:40] Speaker B: Yeah, you just take, take a photo of a tv. [02:09:44] Speaker C: That one might go to Justin. [02:09:46] Speaker D: It most definitely does because I made the QR code. A few more people in the chat. David. Dear Parker. Thanks, guys. [02:09:57] Speaker C: Paul. [02:09:57] Speaker D: Good night, all. Nev Clark. Great show, guys. Missed some of it as I was out taking photos. Oh, don't do that. Just watch. [02:10:05] Speaker C: That's rude. [02:10:06] Speaker D: Yeah, it's rude. Katrina Ferguson on your Bruce. Always a wealth of knowledge. And Nev's got a good. Yes, send it through Nev. Bird photographer. We haven't had one of them on yet. [02:10:19] Speaker A: We have. Good. All right. [02:10:23] Speaker D: All right. [02:10:24] Speaker A: Play the music. We'll see you on Thursday morning, folks. [02:10:27] Speaker B: Thanks, Bruce. [02:10:29] Speaker C: Thanks, Bruce. Any Bruce. [02:10:35] Speaker D: La.