EP43 A Lifelong Passion for Photography with Mark Bloot'hoofd (Photo Awards Judge)

[00:00:08] Speaker A: I thought doing some scat. Not scat, like scatting. Good morning. We are live and I. My first word out of my mouth was scat. Welcome to the Camera Life podcast, episode 43. It is the 19th of December. We're less than a week away from my imminent arrival down your chimneys. And this, this episode 43, it is a silly season. I am feeling a bit silly and tired. Brought to you by Lucky Camera Straps from Bendigo Victoria, the maker of exceptionally fine leather camera straps. Good morning, Justin. Speaking of the devil. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Good morning. I am the devil. [00:00:50] Speaker A: You are the devil. Devil's in the detail. Good to be back. We've got a guest today. Just before we jump to our guests to hear what they have to say to about today's show, I just want to welcome anyone watching along at home or listening later on our audio podcast. So the Camera Live podcast is available. All of our back catalog is available on YouTube and most of our episodes are also up on audio podcast. So please make sure you like and subscribe and you know, tickle the Bell in YouTube for notifications and that sort of thing. But let's jump to our guest and also, sorry, just before we introduce Mark. Stick around, we're going to talk about somebody who's had an extensive career in photography, starting off with film photography and currently works in volume photography with Arthur Reed Photos and. But there's much more to his story than just photographing school kids and we're going to get to that in just a moment. So welcome, Mark. [00:01:54] Speaker C: Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Justin. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Good to have you. [00:01:58] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Good. Now, I think the very first question that I think we just very quickly need to address is how do we pronounce your surname and what are its origins? [00:02:07] Speaker C: It's very Dutch and it's quite a unique name, even from Holland. It's not a, it's not an obvious name or not a very common name in Holland, but the pronunciation, or the, the Anglicized pronunciation is bloat. Ho. Bloat. You can call me, you can just call me Mark. That's fine. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Is there, is there a traditional pronunciation? [00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:29] Speaker C: Oh, it's sort of more blowth. [00:02:32] Speaker A: Blow. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Blowtorft. [00:02:35] Speaker A: It comes from the back of the throat more. [00:02:37] Speaker C: Yeah, they're bloat hoft. But there's so many variations that I've heard growing up. My two boys are hearing lots of variations at their school and. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure they are. And what. So it's, it's very Dutch, but like, how many generations have you been in Australia? Your Family? [00:02:54] Speaker C: I was born here, so dad, dad came out Post World War II, 1952. And yeah, so I'm born and bred. Mum was Australian. So, yeah, so I've got a bit of, a bit of everything. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:03:09] Speaker A: There's nothing wrong with that. We like a mixed bag of lollies. [00:03:12] Speaker C: That's it. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Now, just before we dive deep into your story, can you just give us a quick, very quick synopsis about what it is that you do with your photography at the moment? [00:03:22] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Well, I'm a volume photographer. That's probably, you know, the short answer. I've done predominantly volume photography over my photographic career. So I've been photographing for over 30 years and for over 20 years I've been actually judging at camera clubs and more recently I've been ramping my judging up. Yeah, really enjoy the process of going to clubs and meeting members and seeing lots of work and just being surrounded by photography and photographers and, you know, images, imagery and so forth as well. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah, Just quickly on the volume photography thing for, for those that don't know that, and also me a little bit. I understand what you mean in terms of school photography. So that'd be going into schools and literally taking photos of every single child for the traditional school photo. What other types of volume photography? Are there other types? And what other types do you guys. [00:04:17] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. As a company, we've covered sort of everything related to volume photography. So kindergarten photography, childcare photography, team sport photography. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Are there any, like, corporate workplace? Is that ever a thing? Like big, big workplace stuff or is that not really that. That. [00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah, look, we've done a little bit of that. We, we do probably corporate work in schools. So occasionally we'll go into a school and photograph, you know, their principal teams and things like that in a more. Oh, yeah, corporate, you know, manner, if you like. We've done, yeah. [00:04:53] Speaker B: What's your role within that organization for photography at Arthur Reed? [00:05:00] Speaker C: I started from the ground, but at the moment I'm the photographic manager. So you manage. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:07] Speaker A: So you lead a team of about 35 people, is that right? [00:05:10] Speaker C: I do, yeah. Actually, next year we're. We've got a team that'll be starting in, in the start of next year of over 40 photographers. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Wow, nice. [00:05:18] Speaker C: And that's one of the. [00:05:18] Speaker A: Really to hear. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the. Really one of the things that I think has kept me in the industry, other, other people, other photographers that I work with, you know, because we're all, you know, in a Workplace. You have diverse characters of course, and you know, some of them are there under duress if you like or whatever, but, and maybe even have Arthur Reed, but all our photographers for the most part have a photographic interest and, or background which makes it. Yeah, I love it. It's fantastic. And, and the diversity of photography and photographs we have is really, really inspiring. And, and that's something that yeah, I really enjoy. [00:05:54] Speaker A: It's interesting because a few of our past guests have more recently entered sort of the volume photography market more as kind of seasonal. You know, when it's their, their usual gigs off time they do some seasonal work around, especially around DEBs and graduations for universities and high schools and those sorts of things, which is really interesting. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Three or four guests over the past few months that have all said and, and these are very creative, you know, experienced photographers and, and not only were they sort of doing this, most of them seem to be doing it as a newer thing, you know, started in the last few years as a, as a secondary source of income I guess. But they also all said that they were enjoying it. They were really enjoying the work. You know, it wasn't just like I'm just doing this because I need to make some extra money. They were like, they were loving the, the challenge of trying to bring kids out of their shell and all that sort of stuff. It's, yeah, it was, it's been a quite an interesting thing that's popped up. [00:06:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I've listened to a few of those episodes. It's actually been really nice to, to hear that. And I think our photographers over, over the years have changed from in some cases, you know, sort of entry level photographers, enthusiasts, hobbyists, that's that kind of thing. Right. Freelancers and full blown professionals. Like we, we're actually putting on two fashion photographers. And you know, when, because I employ and go through the whole process and looking at their resume, looking at their websites, you know, the first thing I say when I phone screen or talk to them is you're overqualified. What we do. You know, and so that's, but they say that's fine. That's, that's, there's no, there's no issue with that as well. And look, there's, there's, you know, a lot of people can, you know, know assume that I suppose volume photography is not creative. You have to be creative in lots of different ways, not just photographically. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's what we've heard from past guests as well that you know, a photo is a photo, but it's how you engage and connect with every individual for the brief moment that you have with them that makes the world of difference. Just before we, we roll back the tape a bit and learn a bit more about your early inspirations, I do have to apologize to everyone. I've got to step out for a minute. Got something important to take care of. I'm actually going to do a quick delivery to Bendigo with Justin's Christmas present, but I will be back. So I'll leave you in Justin's more than capable hands. I mean, he is the boss after all. But yes, I will be back in a moment and we'll keep going from there. Talk soon. [00:08:32] Speaker B: Well, we'll keep on digging. I just want to find out a little bit about before. We'll dig into your story once Greg gets back. But tell me about, like, what, what do you look for if a photographer is looking to come and work in your team? What you're saying that there's some people that you're thinking are overqualified. What level of experience do you usually like to have someone to have? Is. Are you looking for people with uni degrees, previous experience in certain styles of photography? Do you, what sort of training do you offer for people? Are there, are there ways to work your way into the industry? Tell me a little bit about it. [00:09:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, good question, Justin. So look, we, we look for people. Look, photography is an important part of the process because, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a technical element to the job and photography is that there's troubleshooting and all those kind of things that are really important. And you know, the photographic eye, the ability to look at a, you know, a subject and work out what's right, what's wrong and all those kind of things, or, you know, technically looking at the lighting or the camera or, you know, something like that. So photography is an important part of it from a technical point of view, but from a creative point of view, from the, the eye of the photographer, that they all become really, really important. As far as beyond that, it has to be personality, okay? Because we have employed photographers that are, on paper are really prolifically experienced. But, you know, the question we always ask, can you work with a shy 5 year old? You know, if you can't work with, you know, if you can go out and win AIPP awards and, you know, whatever it might happen to be, but you can't deal with that prep child, then, you know, you won't get a look in. So we do look for personality. As well. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Is it just your experience that discerns that? Like, how do you, how do you find out if I, if I would be able to work with kids in those situations? Like, do you, do you just have a conversation with me and you can get a feel for it or do, do you sort of give them a, give them a test. Test run or like, what? [00:10:35] Speaker C: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good question. Look, I, I think first impressions do count. So, you know. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Oh, Justin. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Hey, I'm a great first impression Aurora. [00:10:48] Speaker C: So, you know, I mean, obviously we, we run a ccad and we're pretty proud at the way that we, we do our ad. We, we paint a really clear picture of what we do. We've actually created a video that's in our CCAD as well. That's sort of, it's not a. Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker B: A seek ad, you know. [00:11:07] Speaker A: I thought you said seek ad. [00:11:09] Speaker B: That's what I thought first too. I was like, oh, what's a secret? That sounds scientific. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Oh, sexy. Employment. [00:11:14] Speaker A: Sorry. Yep. [00:11:18] Speaker C: That'S it. So we, we've created a video that is kind of. It's not a, it's not a promotion of the business. It's. It's telling people what we do and how we do it and what we look for in people and, and try and try and tell people that, you know, it's not, this isn't glamorous work. You know, there are some schools that, you know, some of the elite private schools that we have, the, you know, the good fortune to go and photograph are just, you know, stupendously, if that's such a word, beautiful. You know, the buildings and it's the grounds and all those kind of things as well, but it can be downright hard work. There's no question of that. You know, there's pressure, there's conditions that are less than ideal sometimes. And sometimes the kids are you know, not supervised at the level that we would like and so forth forth. And that can make it a bit of a challenge. So we do look for those qualities of people that can deal in pressure, can deal with people and, and troubleshoot and think on their feet and all that kind of thing. I mean, I've seen plenty of graduates or people that have studied and, and, you know, got that piece of paper, but I don't consider that highly, to be perfectly honest. I respect it. But for what we do, it's not the be all and end all. We want, we want photography. It is, absolutely. Yeah. So anyone that has, you know, as they nickname it in the industry, hospital experience. You understand pressure, you understand customer service, you understand the need to change gears and move, you know, and that's. There's parallels there with what we do. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And so at the moment, Mark, you lead a team at Arthur Reid Photography or photos. Sorry, do you actually get to do many of the shoots yourself? Are you still active on the ground or are you. [00:13:01] Speaker C: I am, yeah. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:02] Speaker C: So. So I've got a team around me, you know, that support myself and our department. And we all actively photograph, particularly in our peak season. Our industry is extremely seasonal. Unfortunately, as soon as we went digital, schools decided that they needed their photos or our photos that we take, you know, for their internal purposes. Digital was a blessing and a curse. A lot of photos are used for, you know, internal purposes. ID cards. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:27] Speaker C: Intranet. You know, a lot of teachers will have apps for attendance. Those photos are used in that and on it goes. So we have a lot of schools that, you know, need photos, you know, sort of in the first part of the year or, you know, literally day one, you know, term one kind of thing. So, yeah, I am actively photographing as well. So I'm trying to get that kid in front of me to smile and then deal with crisis at other schools and whatever else. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's the time. [00:13:54] Speaker C: Never dull. [00:13:56] Speaker A: Let's jump to a couple of comments here. [00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly. Hey, we're melding this morning. We're right on top of it. I was just gonna. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Santa knows if you've been naughty or nice. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Yelena's in the comments. She says. Morning, all. [00:14:07] Speaker A: Morning, Yelena. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Paul Henderson from Bendigo. Morning, folks. [00:14:11] Speaker A: Hey, Paul. [00:14:13] Speaker B: And Jim, who's normally on the podcast, who's not today because he's packing 600 million camera straps to try and get them all over the world by Christmas. I think he's also looking after his daughter today, too, but, you know, he's. He's good at what he's asking. So jump in the comments, people, if you've got any questions, comments, anything. Yeah, throw them in there. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Morning, guys. Morning, Jim. Yeah, speaking of delivery, I just want to segue for a second there. I was going to ask you how things are going with the orders for Lucky Straps, but I was just telling the boys before we went live that we're in. I'm in Melbourne in central Melbourne in South Yarra, and I ordered a product from Queensland, and apparently Melbourne's distribution and delivery center for the Australia Post is so overrun that they sent my. My parcels and a Bunch of other stuff from other people I know to Perth to be processed of all places. So yeah, I don't know what I'm going to say that stuff and that was meant to be Express Post so you know. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's the, the hot tip for everyone this time of year. If you, if you can afford it. If you have to order anything online, obviously now you're probably too late anyway. Yeah, but, but anytime basically in December I will always pay for Express Post upgrade from anything to go anywhere because when things get crazy at Australia Post they, they always prioritize Express Post. It'll still take longer but they'll always prioritize that over, over regular posts. [00:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah, they'll send it to Perth straight away. [00:15:41] Speaker B: That's right. Rapidly to Perth and then back across. [00:15:43] Speaker A: Got to Perth in 24 hours. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yep, it's, it's been, yeah, it's been a busy season. [00:15:51] Speaker A: That's good, that's really good. Good to hear. [00:15:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Anyway, back to Mark. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Mark, sorry about that. Sloppy segue. [00:15:59] Speaker C: No, yeah, segues are good. [00:16:02] Speaker A: But let's dial back a little bit and talk about your first inspirations in photography. You started like, like us, you started it. Oh no, Justin didn't. But I started in film photography in art school very, very long time ago in a dark room printing, processing and printing my own photos. I imagine it was similar for you. Take us back to when you first were introduced to photography and what was that experience like for you? [00:16:32] Speaker C: I was, I'm a child of the 70s so I was raised on a very healthy dose of Spielberg and Lucas and you know, the fantastic blockbusters and movies of that time. So my interest was probably initially more in film and so forth. And I used to run around with, with a Super 8 camera with the Kodachrome Super 8 film still in the box unused. So I was a budding little filmmaker. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Wow. [00:17:04] Speaker C: Used to do animations with and all that kind of thing. So I had aspirations to sort of go into, you know, that sort of industry. Yeah, photography. I was in year eight and I, my parents gave me the. Their point and shoot to take on camp and I took a series of photos and every one of them was out of focus and terrible. But I love, I still look at those photos every now and then and it doesn't matter. They still, you know, sort of trigger a memory and all that kind of thing. Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. And then year 12 came along and I had the choice of doing some sort of more practical hands on subjects in sort of the art Realm and, and filmmaking was, was one component, but photography was the other. And I kind of fell in love with photography at that point and it really embraced it, particularly at school. And yeah, as you said before Greg, I spent a lot of time in the dark room. I really that. That whole tactile experience of shooting film and let me see if I have my very first camera that I learned on. So there's a bit of props today. So the old. [00:18:11] Speaker A: No, no, it's good. We love a prop. [00:18:13] Speaker C: The old trusty K1000 there I use. So learn on that great camera and yeah, spend a lot of time in the dark room and really embrace it. And that's. And then I kind of. And then went into photography actually then picked up a job. Yeah as a school photographer very soon after leaving school and sort of haven't looked back. But over the course of, you know, the last X many years I have flipped between film and video and photography. I actually ended up doing a. I studied when I first. So after I left school I studied photography. I enrolled into the New York Institute of Photography. They had. [00:18:56] Speaker B: So this is pre digital. [00:18:58] Speaker C: This was a. The old school version of an online course. Wow. It was a correspondence course. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:07] Speaker C: So they, they sent you the, they sent you the materials, you know, booklets and they had VHS tapes for you to watch. Bits and pieces and whatever else really. [00:19:19] Speaker B: They'd send you tapes. [00:19:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it was fantastic. [00:19:21] Speaker A: And so you would send your work back over. [00:19:23] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, they had, they had, they actually had an office here in Australia. So you'd send your, your photography, your assignments if you like to. I think it was in New South Wales. And then the, the lecturer or the tutor would send you work back with the audio tape with a critique. [00:19:42] Speaker B: That is awesome. It literally is. It's an online course, but just through the mail. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Literally analog. That's so cool. [00:19:50] Speaker C: So that was great. I, I really enjoyed that. And the, I still have the materials now and at the, even at the time I looked at them and it was all, all the reference photos and all the materials were all from the 70s. So this was in the 90s, so it was 20 years old and it was really, it was dated really badly. But, but you know, the core of the information was fantastic and I learned a lot. But then of course I was working at the same time as doing the correspondence course and I was learning a bucket load on the job as well. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Well, yeah, all right, sorry I just going to jump in and say just to. Just to add a little glossary for the kids watching along at home, a VHS tape was a, an old, an old recording medium that people would record videos on and you would go to the local milk bar and rent movies on VHS tape and could take them home and watch them. I still remember that so vividly that scanning the VHS aisles at like Blockbuster in the early days or even and before Blockbuster it was like at the local milk bar. [00:20:55] Speaker B: And then I used to go and get. There was, there was, there was always deals. You could get like, say like four weeklies and one new release for a deal. So you just like cruising around the store just trying to find the full. [00:21:09] Speaker A: Your four week, ten bucks or something like it wouldn't be. [00:21:12] Speaker B: And you walk out with this stack like this, you're like. [00:21:15] Speaker A: And they'd have the shop. It's a bit like a modern day video game store where all the cassettes are on display and then if you were returning it and it was out of hours, there was like a, like in a library. There was a slot where you dropped your tapes in. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I reckon, because I'm just judging by the comments that we get on this show, I would say almost everyone listening to this show has been into a video rental store. Not a DVD rental store, a video rental store. But let's. If anyone is out there that has never been inside a video rental store. Comment, please. We'd like to, we'd like to hear from you, you weirdo. [00:21:52] Speaker A: And, and the, the audio cassette. Yeah, the audio cassette that Mark's referring to was a smaller, it's like the size of a pack of cigarettes. [00:22:01] Speaker B: Surely everyone knows those. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Well, I don't know, it's kind of, I don't know who's watching. I mean, you know, my kids sometimes watch this and they've, they've only known digital. I know my older kids, my older. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Kids know VHS don't play around. Jim. You know what a bloody Video rental stories. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Yeah, you, you used to go to the curtain section, Jim. It was always a curtain section. Everyone. [00:22:28] Speaker B: In the back. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Yeah, in the back. So Mark, just, just to get back on track, all of a sudden we're talking about adult movies. When you started thinking about, you know, making your own films with your, your, what was it, a Super 8. Yeah, Super 8, Super 8 film camera. What was it that, I mean you said that the movies inspire you, but what actually, what do you think it was about it that made you want to actually try and create your own work? [00:23:00] Speaker C: I, I, I was, I really loved movies. I really loved watching movies and the experience and the imagination and the escapism and I suppose I wanted to create that my own, you know, you know, so. And share that with other people and all that kind of thing. I think that was kind of the motivation. Yeah, I just really enjoyed. Yeah. The, the power that film has to transport you and, and fire your imagination and things like that and. [00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:23:29] Speaker C: So I attempted to, to do that myself and. Yeah, particularly. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:34] Speaker C: With the Super 8 camera and then later. Later with a video camera as well. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Do you have any all time favorite movies? [00:23:41] Speaker C: Oh gosh, it does change. But I mean the cliche for me was probably the big block, the blockbusters, you know, the Star wars trilogy and Indiana Jones trilogy, you know, ET Very heavily influenced in my youth by Lucas and Spielberg. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:58] Speaker C: And then as I matured, I then started to, you know, look at Scorsese and De Palma and some of those really classic sort of 60s and 70s directors that weren't sort of the blockbuster guys but, you know, made quality films. [00:24:13] Speaker A: I remember Spielberg. Was it Close Encounter? [00:24:17] Speaker C: Yes. [00:24:18] Speaker A: That movie scared me because it just felt so real at the time. You know, I was only young, I'm 51 now, so. But it just blew me away and, and the way that the dad was building the plateau in his lounge room with the clay. Was it clay or mashed potato? [00:24:39] Speaker C: I can't remember. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Like it was my first experience of seeing someone that was really losing their mind. You know, it was, there was so much, it was so compelling and powerful. But yeah, like you big Star wars here and Indiana Jones, like just absolutely love that. I remember my mum took me to see the first one in the cinema. I think it was one of the first movies I ever saw in a cinema and pretty compelling stuff like it. And I wonder, Mark, do you think that that escapism and that wonder and whimsy that movies used to instill in us, do you think that that's gone now? Do you think that it's been dissolved by the massive, the mass volume of content that we're exposed to? [00:25:22] Speaker C: I, I think it's still there if you want it. I think there's still some fantastic stuff being produced, movies and TV shows. And I, I think in one thing that I've noticed, you know, since those, you know, you know, the good old days, if you like. Yeah. Of those big blockbusters I think is like the TV shows. Yeah. There was this whole sort of exodus, not exodus, but there was a move from the quality, you know, movie makers that went into TV to make the long form TV shows. You know. Game of Thrones is the One that sort of stood out to me as being one of those first ones. Real quality, high budget, you know, exceptional. But I, I think, I, I think if we, you know, the whole Gen X thing, you know, like if we talk about, you know, the music stars of the 80s and so forth as well, they, they, they were big and it's because you didn't have. Yeah, I suppose the idea, you start to have a broader range of artists and, and so forth. But at the moment we have such a broad way to consume content that I think it can be lost because, you know, people are watching films on their phones, you know, on their laptops and whatever else. And for me, the grandeur of a cinema and the sound and the picture and the overwhelming senses and so forth was a part of the experience. And if you're going to work and watching a film on your phone or something like that, or traveling or whatever it is, you lose that, you lose that. You know, the, the gift and the magic of, of that, you know, it's a, it's one part of it, but it's online. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Do you think that also applies to photography these days? Because we, we've often talked about, on this show about who we, who are we taking. Sorry, Justin. Who we are taking photos for and why are we taking photos, why do we shoot and how are we showing our work and is it, you know, postage stamp size grabs that we flick past in half a second? [00:27:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Do you think photography's lost its magic again? [00:27:19] Speaker C: I think it's there. If you want to, if you want to, you know, grab that, it's definitely there, like for me. So I present and judge at camera clubs and one of the things in one of my presentations I do talk about slowing down. Get off your phone, go to an exhibition, you know, stand in front of an image on a wall and just pause for a moment as opposed to the, the constant scrolling. I think it's there, but you've got to work a bit harder, you know, like I encourage people, you know, to look at photography books, you know, just slow down, absorb, take your time. I think social media's got its place and particularly for photography and so forth and, but it can happen too quick and you can lose that. So I think there is, yeah, my suggestion to, to anyone is just to, is to pause and enjoy, you know, where you can, you know, we live in such a fast paced world. It's crazy. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the other thing that I've, I've found lately, scrolling through Instagram, you know, I try to follow artists Illustrators because I used to be a sort of artsy when I was in art school. Funny that the. Just the amount of times I have to stop and consider, is this AI or is this real? And I'm seeing it with photographies too. And even some videos fool you for a couple of seconds. You know, the quick ones are the reels that pop up and you think, oh, that's really fast. And then something happens and it morphs and you see a telltale sign that this is AI and you think, oh, man, I was fooled. I feel dumb, you know, I feel stupid for being fooled by, you know, by this sort of robotic process. But. And I think that'll continue to be a big challenge for us in this craft is having, you know, making our work stand out to be differentiated from AI generated content. But yeah, it's a real challenge. [00:29:17] Speaker B: I'm actively trying to stand out by making my photos worse because then people will be like, well, that, that can't be AI. Yeah, it couldn't. It couldn't possibly be that bad. [00:29:30] Speaker A: And also folks, just, just on that, speaking of bad photography, Justin won't be showing us his 12 images this week, every week. For those of you new to the show or haven't tuned in for a while or missed this segment, every week towards the end of our show, Justin shares his photo essay assignment for the week. Set himself a challenge to produce a photo essay or a set of 12 images each week with some sort of storytelling element to them. And it's been an absolute pleasure watching Justin stress over these challenges, but deliver some really, really compelling photojournalistic style shots. Now, unfortunately, Justin won't be sharing this week's work because there is no work this week. No, he's been far too busy being a lucky strap man. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:17] Speaker A: So we will forgive him. [00:30:18] Speaker B: And it's Christmas. [00:30:19] Speaker A: We'll be generous. [00:30:20] Speaker B: I probably had time to do it. I didn't have the mental bandwidth to do it. And it was just one of those things where I had to make a call and I did. I decided rather than than half ass it just to say that I did it because I think this would have been week eight. I decided I need to take a little break over the holiday period and I'll get back started into it early. Jan, so, which is a shame because it would have been awesome to have someone like Mark critique my images. But if he critiqued this week's images, he probably would have gone, yeah, nice one. It's. [00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, Justin, do you want to go on? [00:30:59] Speaker B: Sorry, I was Just going to say so the lesson I've learned this week is it's good to challenge yourself and it's okay sometimes if you aren't able to live up to the challenge there's always tomorrow. [00:31:09] Speaker A: I was talking to the boys before the show and I said sorry boys, the men, the lads, the blokes. I said that I haven't picked up a camera in probably a month to actually do anything. I've been writing about photography, I've been very busy with work, writing about photography but I just haven't been out with a camera and I think that's okay too. I've got responsibilities for work, I've got bills to pay so we'll get there eventually. Hopefully I'll take some time off over Christmas and try and just make sure I've always got a camera on me. Do you want to jump to some comments there Justin? [00:31:43] Speaker B: A couple of quick comments just from Philip Johnson says good morning. Morning Philip. [00:31:47] Speaker A: Morning Philip. Where are you from? Philip? Let us know in the comments. [00:31:51] Speaker B: And Frog, Frog says he's an apology today. He must be busy too. Frog from Tasmania, he's a fellow bee fopper. Yeah and he said he's in and out and we'll catch up later but he seconds the minutes of the last meeting. Oh and another Good morning, thanks David. Lauren, Morning. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Morning Lauren, where are you calling? Oh sorry where are you watching from? Calling from? [00:32:14] Speaker B: Hello caller. Hello caller. [00:32:17] Speaker A: And Jim has said where are all the Davids? [00:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah last week we had four Davids in the comments we did have four. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Davids and I started even calling our guest Levin, I started calling him David. [00:32:26] Speaker B: Mark, do you do a lot of stuff related to photography? Like a lot if it's your job, it's been your job for a long time. You're presenting at camera clubs, judging awards. Do you, do you go through periods, seasons where you're using your camera for personal stuff and then when you, when you don't pick it up, you know you look back and it's been six months since you used a camera for, for something not work related like do you go through those, those periods of time? [00:32:53] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm lucky in my job that I'm constantly photographing constantly around photographers, constantly, you know, around photography and I, I suppose I, I always try and put my personal touch into what I do professionally but I really enjoy photography for myself and yeah there can be absolute times where I'm not photographing as much as I would like but you know I'm, I'm married, you Know with a family, two boys and you know they're high, their high school age now, you know, which is easier but you. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Know those in some ways. [00:33:29] Speaker C: Yeah, well that's right but the, when I started I was very fortunate to, to be working with some somewhat like minded people. You know they were photographers so I suppose they were like mind in that point of view but I, I was drawn to sort of nature landscape photography and so forth and, and a few of those key people I work with and who trained me and, and you know, sort of mentored me if you like were very much in that. Of the things with school photography is that you have to go to the schools. So you know and it's. We're a Geelong based company but we travel everywhere and, and back when I started we did a lot of regional Victoria and, and quite a bit of interstate work as well and it would literally be put the work camera down, pick up your personal camera and go and explore. And that was one of the, the wonderful things with, yeah with, with country runs just exploring and you know, just driving aimlessly and you know and hoping for something particularly pre Internet you didn't really have that resource to look up where you know what things were and so forth. So you know we'd be driving around trying to you know, chase the, the sun as it was setting and you know, oh there's something quick handbrake turn and you know then turn around and stop and jump the fence and get chased by a bull and take some photos and all that kind of thing. So I, that my first few years that was my life, you know, going away with work quite a bit and just embracing the people I was working with and going for it. So what I do now though is that we have a closed Facebook group for our photographers and we have a monthly photographic competition where we have a set subject. And so the idea is to encourage our photographers to photograph in that month for that theme and we just put it up there and have a look at them and there's a, you know there'll be someone with, within the circle or external will, you know, basically critique the images and choose a first, second, third and you get bragging rights and but it's. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Do you get to compete in that or. Because you're the boss you. It's like it's not really fair if you just win every month. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Awful dark photos in this year's calendar. What are the odds? [00:35:46] Speaker C: Well the, the images are, they're you know, anonymous to the person that's critiquing them. They don't know. [00:35:52] Speaker B: Ah, that's cool. [00:35:54] Speaker C: So, yeah, and that's. I really enjoy that because that. [00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really fun. [00:35:58] Speaker C: That gives me, well, and the others, too, hopefully, an incentive to get out and photograph. And the idea is to definitely get them out photographing outside of work. Yeah. I'm a great believer in, you know, that the skills that you bring from your personal photography translate into what we do professionally and vice versa. I'm very, very big on that. You know, it doesn't matter what field you're in. You know, if you throw yourself into, you know, the volume photography that you do, there are skills that are very, very transferable. So. [00:36:27] Speaker A: And I think it also prevents you falling into a rut of doing the same thing every day, in and out, without much thought. You know, if you're going out maybe on your weekends, because you want to get the shot this weekend for the calendar for. For work or for whatever that extra inspiration to go and do something personal is, you know, I think it offers you a little. A little mind break and a creative break from the day to day. And not to say that creativity isn't involved because, as you said, everyone brings their own little creative elements to volume photography. But it does help to just keep the mind limber, the creative mind limber. But, yeah, a couple of things I just wanted to touch on one, Justin. I think we should do a Lucky Straps calendar next year. [00:37:15] Speaker B: A calendar and. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, and we'll invite our podcast guests to submit images and we'll judge them and then you will pay for a calendar to be printed for everyone. [00:37:25] Speaker B: No, we'll just make one calendar. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah, just one. We'll just share it around month by month. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's not a bad idea. I wonder if. Yeah, but what about. Maybe people in the chat could submit, too. That would get comments. That'd be fun. But then we'd need a whole year of that before we do the calendar for the. [00:37:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it'll be for next year. It's too late to do one for next year. [00:37:48] Speaker B: It's a long project. [00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'm trying. I'm trying to secure my future employment. [00:37:56] Speaker B: 12 months, Mark, off the top of your head, if you can remember, there are a couple of examples of those themes that come up for those monthly competitions that you can think of. [00:38:07] Speaker C: So the winner of the last month's competition chooses a set subject. [00:38:12] Speaker A: That's cool. Yep. [00:38:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I encourage them to pick something that's generally fairly generic, so it doesn't exclude people. So they, you know. Oh, Well, I can't get to, you know, photograph. You know, I can't. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:26] Speaker C: Get into the city to photograph architecture or whatever it might happen to be sort of thing. So. Oh yeah, last month we shadows. It's, you know, sometimes it's open. I think next at the moment for December, January, it's color and light. We don't have definitions. It's very relaxed. It's just get out and photograph. You know, whether it doesn't. It can be on your phone, doesn't matter. Just, just get out and photograph and. [00:38:51] Speaker A: But I think I like those, those looser guidelines because when you tell someone to go out and shoot architecture, that's one thing. But to go out and tell someone, go look for light, or show me contrast or show me color at play in nature even, or just color at play. It takes you back to the very, very fundamental things of photography, of how you see light, shadow, color, tone, all those sorts of elements. I think it's really great. Mark, you raised a point earlier that I wouldn't mind exploring just a little bit because it is something that we often come across here and it relates back to social media. You talked about how in the early days, you know, you'd be driving for work and you would just happen to see something. You weren't able to research it. You weren't following a set of influences on YouTube or Instagram, who, you know, let's face it, they're great and they point out areas that are worth going to, but they kind of already capture the Instagramable moment. While, yes, they might influence you to go somewhere, say somewhere in Japan or somewhere in regional Victoria, to take a shot of something similar or the same place. There is, I think, a lot to be said for just heading in a direction with your camera and seeing what you come across as opposed to. I've just Instagrammed this and I found it on Google Maps and I've pinned it and I've, you know, I know where I'm going to stop the coffee on, like just heading out on a creative adventure without any real plans. You know, I don't think it's something that we do so much anymore. We often get out with groups, with clubs, photo walks, you know, beef up. But I think there's still a lot to be said for just getting lost with your camera. And I think that's something that we kind of lose. We're relying too much on, again, social media telling us where we should go and photograph things sometimes. What are your thoughts on that? [00:40:52] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I, I agree with that because, yeah, I've done exactly, you know, that just, you know, driving, walking aimlessly and just. Yeah. Looking for elements that make for a great image. You know, not so much the location that has to be ticked off the bucket list and so forth as well. Yeah, yeah. I'm, I really love the technology that we have available to us now. It's democratized so many creative pursuits. But I'm really glad that I've gone through, dare I say, the analog, pre digital, you know, kind of way of photography in particular. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you'd sort of have a bit of an idea of. All right, well, if I go here, I might come across something like even now, I, I probably still maybe don't do enough research. If I'm going to a location to find out what's there, I just kind of let that mystery on evolve. Maybe I'm missing out. Maybe, you know, maybe I need to do a little bit more research. And I do. [00:41:53] Speaker A: It's interesting, isn't it? I think, I mean, there's benefits and to both approaches. I remember some of my earlier trips to Japan. I would, you know, I would have a whole regime set up and I would have Google Maps and I would starve the locations on Google Maps here at home, doing my research of interesting places to go and photograph and create folders of different things. And, and that was great because I got to see the stuff that I really wanted to see, you know, not like, you can just head to Japan next weekend if only, you know, you've got to make the most of the opportunity. So I didn't want to miss out. But then in some of my later trips, I would often just, with my Suica card, my rail card, I would just jump on a random train and get off 15 minutes later at wherever it stopped and just wander. And they were some of my best photographic experiences and dare I say, some of the better shots that I got that weren't, you know, Instagrammable Influencer. Everyone's got a shot of Shibuya Scramble Crossing. You know, it was more, it was, it was far more unique for me that way. [00:42:55] Speaker C: Well, I, I traveled through Europe in my 20s and yeah, pretty much the same thing. I remember jumping on trains and just, okay, let's get off here. Don't know where it is, don't know what's happening. And, and just walking around villages and towns and cities and, and yeah, if I think back to some of my, yeah, more, you know, favorite images from, from those. That time is exactly. Just those happy little Accidents, Yeah, I like that. [00:43:20] Speaker A: And in fact, on my first, very first trip to Japan, I arrived late at night. I was staying in right and smack in the middle of Shibuya and in Tokyo. And I had a half day bus tour the next day to see the sights. Right. And we spent the first hour and a half just traveling from hotel to hotel to pick up everyone that was going on the tour. And along the way I was seeing all these amazing things. They weren't on our list of to see. They were just happened to be along the way between hotels. And I ended up getting off the bus and trying to communicate to the tour guide and the driver that I was okay, I was going to walk. I didn't want to be on the bus anymore because I felt like I was missing the best parts of Tokyo for me, not the stuff that all the tourists wanted to go and see, you know. And there was a couple, a very loud couple and they said, can we stop the coffee? And it just, it just was, it was just doing my head in. So I just, I just got off the bus and went, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. You know, I couldn't speak Japanese and they didn't speak much English and just disappeared for hours and ended up coming across things that I hadn't put on my Google maps. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's the way to do it. That's how I roll. I'm not a researcher in terms of photo spots. It doesn't never really appeals to me. I think it means you miss out on some of those epic shots but you find something else, you know, that just comes across your path. That's why we always try and rent a scooter if we can, if it's safe enough, wherever we're going to go to Vietnam and rent a scooter and just, just head off towards that way and just see what you find, you know. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker C: I remember when, after I sort of, you know, went through all my images after my European trip, you know, obviously it was a film based adventure. I, you know, sort of put them all together and had a, you know, I was shooting transparency slide film and, and obviously prints and black and whites and color and the whole lot and so when I eventually sort of got the images together to, you know, show my family. Yeah. Firstly, it dawned on me after showing all these images that I personally really liked that most of them were not recognizable to a country or a town or a city or anything. That most of them were just about either moments or shape or color or Contrast all those things you mentioned before, Greg, and, And just sort of. I didn't photograph. I didn't chase the cliche, things to photograph, which I think are important and they play a place, there's no doubt about that. But my personal favorite images were more about something that I found, you know, particularly interesting, you know, other than a monument or. Or whatever it may happen to be. [00:45:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very true. [00:46:00] Speaker B: That's exactly it. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Very true. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Translate. Yeah, sorry. No, go on, you go. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Sorry I interrupted you, mate. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Sometimes those images then translate beyond just countries, you know, spots. It's. It's real life and it's. It's. [00:46:18] Speaker A: It's the human experience. [00:46:19] Speaker B: The human experience similar but different in another country. And, yeah, that's. [00:46:25] Speaker C: It is. [00:46:25] Speaker A: It's very. [00:46:27] Speaker B: You think when you travel, you're supposed to be able to, like you say, tell what country you're in and this is where we were and stuff like that, but sometimes that, that stuff just. Just gets in the way. [00:46:37] Speaker C: I was specifically, you know, telling my family, oh, now this was in Germany, this was in Holland or this was wherever it was. And then, yeah, the images were not obvious to those places at all. And I thought, that's really interesting. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's kind of like that more. Yeah. I do want to jump in a couple comments. [00:46:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:46:55] Speaker B: Well, we've got locations. Lauren's in the Southern Highlands. [00:46:59] Speaker A: Is that Southern Highlands of Scotland? [00:47:02] Speaker B: I was just going to breeze past that because I was like, I don't know where that. Is that like us or Lauren? [00:47:08] Speaker A: Let's narrow it down, please. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Which. Which country? Which hemisphere? And Philip Johnson's in. What's that, Katumba? [00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I used to have family. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Monique Weir says morning or Mark judged our camera club comp. Definitely the best judge of the year. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Go, Mark. [00:47:28] Speaker B: But not the decade, but the year. That's still pretty good. Great constructive advice. Looks beyond the technical. Love it. What. What camera club was that, Monique? [00:47:38] Speaker A: Yeah, let us know. [00:47:40] Speaker C: Monic is at Williamstown. [00:47:43] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:47:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I've met Monica before and had, yeah, had a good chat with her and. Yeah, thanks, Monique. That's really nice. [00:47:51] Speaker A: That's lovely. I'll be coming to your camera club in February, Monique, to give a talk about the ethics of photography. Stay tuned for that. Halfway between Sydney and Canberra. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Okay, so, yeah, Australia Highlands, Right? [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Paul Henderson says what that mean. Maybe jumped off the bus at the traffic lights in St Petersburg to wander the streets and take some snaps. Hope we could find the hotel later without reading Russian. Yeah, that's cool. Get lot. You just get lost and you figure it out later. Hopefully you don't. [00:48:21] Speaker A: Getting lost in Russia doesn't feel quite so safe as getting lost in Tokyo. [00:48:25] Speaker B: But anyway, me pop now says that's an excellent idea. Not shooting landmarks. Yeah, I'm. I almost never shoot landmarks. It's just, I don't know, just doesn't really appeal to me. I always think someone else has probably done this better. So if I shoot a landmark, it's usually got. It's got Yelena in it or something just to be like, hey, this is us, we're here. You know, like Yelan is the landmark. Yeah, she is the landmark. I just take her wherever and just pop it in front of. [00:48:50] Speaker A: That's the only reason you let her hang around, really. You just need subject matter for your photos. [00:48:54] Speaker B: Yeah, she's my landmark. The drunk wedding photography photographer is in the chat from. From California. He is a film wedding photographer. Yep, he does. He shoots his weddings on film. Mark, do you still shoot film? And if you do, what sort of, what sort of cameras and film are you rocking these days? [00:49:20] Speaker C: I don't shoot film anymore, to be honest. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Too inconvenient or just, just, you know, like prefer digital. Why don't you shoot film anymore? [00:49:33] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. I think from a professional point of view, it was at times extremely stressful or could be extremely stressful. Yeah. [00:49:43] Speaker B: So you got a bit of PTSD from, from. [00:49:46] Speaker C: Yeah, this is. So this is, this is the work camera that we used. So this is. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Look at that thing. [00:49:55] Speaker C: I'm holding this. Yeah, so It's a Nikon F3. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Describe it for the listeners. [00:50:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So It's a Nikon F3. [00:50:03] Speaker A: What. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Which has got what we call a 250 back. And the 250 back would hold basically a cassette with 250 frames on it. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Oh, that is awesome. David, the drunk wedding photographer needs one of those. He could do this whole day on 150 frames, not change film. [00:50:25] Speaker C: That's the cassette and that's actually got film in it. So there's 250 exposures in there. And so you'd have to do constant checks, you know, just taking up, making sure that the slack the motor drive was actually pulling the film and so forth and whatever else. In fact, we back in the film days in, in our. So every term, every school term, we would allocate X amount of days for retakes because they were going to be technical problems whether the film didn't transport. It got exp. You know, it got light leak or Whatever else or was damaged in the, in the, in the processing part and so forth forth as well. Where now digital just doesn't allow that. It's a good question I think because it's, it's interesting. When, when we, when we went to digital cameras for school photos. Yeah Fujifilm. What about here? [00:51:23] Speaker B: Is that what you guys, is that what you guys use for the whole company? [00:51:26] Speaker C: No, we, so when we first, when we first went digital we went to Fujifilm. [00:51:30] Speaker A: So we don't actually surprise Justin. They can shoot volume. [00:51:34] Speaker B: It would be an odd choice. It would be an odd choice. I'm just saying you just made. [00:51:39] Speaker C: We shot with the this, the Fuji S1, the S2, the S3 and then the S5 weapons of choice. But unfortunately film stocks the technology of film at the sort of the. The late 90s, early 2000s were at were peak. They. They were fantastic. The skin tones and the softness and, and the warmth was, was beautiful. Really really stunning. And then we went to digital and it kind of. We took three steps back. Oh it was, it was almost, it was almost disheartening to be honest. And it was like we had to make the change to digital because of the products that the industry required and schools and so forth. But the quality dropped for a few, for a few years. Like when we. So all our portrait work were done on 35 mil film and then our group photography was all done on medium format cameras. So we used to use the Bronico 645, you know, in the clarity and whatever else. And then yeah, the quality then dropped. But over the years I've just kind of embraced I suppose each generational change with, with, with the digital, you know, revolution and so forth. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Past guest of ours, Jason Lau, who he, he's of a similar generation as usual and he started on film and then jumped to digital pretty much straight away. As soon as digital is available he ended up going back to film for a few years to wait for digital to bake properly because it just wasn't at the same resolution or standards or, or color as. Yeah, as film wasn't. [00:53:18] Speaker C: It was, it was a very steep learning curve. [00:53:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:21] Speaker C: Yeah well that's yeah one of our. So we we photographed graduations back in the day and we shot on film and, and we would have other providers so competition and I remember in particular they shot on medium format film for their graduation portraits and so forth and, and their work was always stunning. I mean we use good film stock and now our results were you know, fine too of course. But he got sponsorship from Kodak and went to one of the very first Kodak cameras and started photographing all the graduate, all the graduates. And I just remember seeing his sample photos thinking, wow, you've. It's not there, it's not there at all compared to. Because he was shooting, you know, medium format in particular. Yeah, yeah, I think. Oh, I just, I think the cost of film is probably a little bit prohibitive as well. In somewhat, in my mind, I think digital, you know, has democratized that. Like I used to shoot a lot of slide film and that was expensive back in the day. Although I, I did shoot the, the lovely Kodachrome. Okay. Kodachrome 64, which was, yeah, fantastic. That was, you know, it was more of a domestic film but it was prepaid. So you, you, the cost of the film included the processing and the mounting and really. So inside, inside this little box. So this is a collector's item, obviously there's a little envelope that you would then put the film in and it was pre, it was prepaid and it would go to, I think it would go to Coburg where and then it would be processed and then, you know, all the slides will be then mounted and then sent back for your, you know, for your slide projector. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Isn't that crazy? [00:55:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's very cool. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:07] Speaker A: And so a couple of things. Next time I'm in Geelong and out your way, can I, can I drop by and play with all your fun cameras and toys? [00:55:17] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:55:18] Speaker A: I think you've got a better collection than Justin. [00:55:20] Speaker B: Steal everything in that office? [00:55:22] Speaker A: No, no, I just, just want to hang out for a bit and play. We're gonna have a play date. How many cameras do you have, Mark? [00:55:29] Speaker C: Well, in front of me when I got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. So I've only got 11 in front of me at the moment. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Wow. [00:55:39] Speaker C: We used the old trusty Polaroid. [00:55:42] Speaker B: Oh yes, yes. [00:55:44] Speaker C: We used, we actually use that to photograph a class group and then staple that Polaroid to a piece of paper with, you know, back row, middle row, front row for the teachers then to fill out the names of the kids. And then occasionally we might take, you know, some selfies with the Polaroid. I think occasionally we might have a battle, you know, with each of us would have, you know, if there's two of us, for example, and we had a Polaroid each, we'd have a Polaroid War who could photograph each other's face. [00:56:15] Speaker A: Nice. [00:56:15] Speaker C: Occasionally you put the, the Polaroid camera on self timer and then throw it in the air and get a drone shot if the angle was right. So you'd have to climb it when. [00:56:26] Speaker B: It'S spinning around in the air. [00:56:28] Speaker C: We would always catch it. We'd always catch a Polaroid. But sometimes you'd have this fantastic sort of. Yeah, we were ahead of our time. It was, you know, before drones were a thing. [00:56:37] Speaker B: I love the Polaroid war idea. That's kind of like Jim and I used to have a similar kind of game at weddings, but this, we're in the digital times. So when we're shooting dance floors with flash on camera flash, doing like drag shutter shots and stuff on the dance floor at weddings, the game would be try and try and flash the other photographer in the eyes without them noticing at some point, to the point, you know, so that they can barely see anything, you know, so you'd be walking past, you just bang, right? And Jim did not enjoy that. It was fun. I had a good time done something similar. [00:57:10] Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt. I've just got to take a quick break. I'm going to leave you in Justin and Mark's capable hands and I'll be back in just a moment. [00:57:18] Speaker B: We'll go to some comments and say. So David, the drunk wedding photographer says that he only uses 35 mil film because he's a stubborn grandpa. But he's in LA, which is currently sunny but chilly. Have you seen any drones flying over there the size of cars? I saw a news report, I don't know if there's any around la, but I saw a news report that on the east coast of the US people are sighting drones the size of cars and no one knows what they are. So tell us, David, give us the lowdown from on the ground. Are there drones currently swarming the US and doing something or is it a conspiracy theory? Enlighten us. This is interesting, actually. We should find out. I want to ask you about what sort of gear that you guys are using now. But David's still using the D700 for its Panasonic sensor. [00:58:10] Speaker C: That D700, we used the D700 and it was. Yeah, it was a beautiful image that came out of it because it got. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Released in tandem with the D3, I think, and they both had the same sensor. Is that. I'm pretty sure that's right. The D3 being the pro, the pro sports body in the D700 was kind of like its little brother, but I think they both had the same sensor and everyone loved those, those two sensors. Like at the time, I think Canon had the 5D one or two or is like right in that area which had more megapixels. But the, the D700, everyone preferred the, the look of the rendering of. Even though it had, I think it was only 12 megapixel or something. Trying to remember. [00:58:56] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a bit smaller, but it's 15 maybe. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Yeah. What, what gear are you guys using now? And, and do you use the same cameras, like company wide? Like how does it, how does the gear side of things work when you got 40 photographers? [00:59:11] Speaker C: Yeah, good question. So we've, for many years we were very Nikon based. The Fuji, obviously. Well, sorry, I'm not, and I'm not sure, I don't know if that's the case now or not, but the, the, the, the initial Fujis that we use, the S1s and 2, threes and fives, they were Nikon mounted, so we use Nikon lenses with them. [00:59:29] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:31] Speaker C: And then we, and then, and then we sort of went to a nikon body, the D700 in fact, for our, for our group photography. And then we've progressed with the, the Nikons as they've, you know, been released and got better and better and so forth. And then we went to, we actually got Canon portrait cameras while we were using Nikon. You know, people roll their eyes at that and think why would you do that? But a very, very clever and creative color correctors were able to match with no problems. [01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:04] Speaker C: But going into next year we're all Canon, both for our group photography in our portraits. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Interesting, interesting. So was, would that have been a switch based on like, where was it at the time to jump from to mirrorless? Is that why that was a good time to switch from Nikon to Canon? Or like how did that come about? Do you know? Like the back. [01:00:25] Speaker C: The back, yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to think. I mean, yeah, we get probably about three to five years out of our cameras and then they start to wear down. In fact, our, some of our Fujis. This is actually quite interesting when we actually retired the, the S5s which we actually had for a long time, some of them had actuations of over a million. Nice. On the one shutter. Yeah. [01:00:55] Speaker B: And then longer than you think, like. Yeah, we've run, we've ran some of the, the Jim one ran one of his D750s which wasn't even as robust a camera is as something like a D700. They were a little bit more consumer grade. Yeah, I reckon he had one of those close to a million. Yeah. You were surprised how many you get out of a shutter. Sometimes they'll die early, but yeah, some of them just keep, like an older car, you know, Some of them just keep going. [01:01:23] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, look, it's, it's a combination of, I suppose, cost, practicality and all those kind of things and that come into. Because we're buying, you know, so many. Yes, it's, you know, it's a big decision. It has to be, you know, thought through pretty carefully. [01:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine there'd be a lot of quoting and, and back and forth of what if we did this option? What if we did that option? And, and yeah, assessing. Yeah, just what the next five years looks like. [01:01:48] Speaker C: Yeah. But so we've actually made the leap into mirrorless for our group photography next year. So that's exciting because what sort of. [01:01:57] Speaker B: Cameras would they be if they're canons? Are they like, do you guys go high end, high megapixel, like the R5 Mark II? Or are they like, how does, how. Yeah. So we need what cameras to use. [01:02:10] Speaker C: Well, I, when I went to my boss who controls the, the purse string, so to speak, I was pushing for the, the, the R5 mark II, but. [01:02:21] Speaker B: Good choice. [01:02:22] Speaker C: Yeah. But now we went for the, we went for the R6 mark two and we, we tested prolifically. So we were using. Our Nikon group cameras were 810s and 800s and they were, they were doing a great job, but we were having some pretty significant tethering issues with them, so we had to sort of move them on. And I was actually blown away because I, I have been DLSR for up until recently and hadn't even picked up a mirrorless camera at all. And I just, it's. Wow. It's just, you know, just the tech behind it. So kind of like driving a, you know, a manual car where you've got to be skilled with the clutch and changing gears and all that kind of stuff to now somewhat driving a Tesla, you know, where there's a lot of automation and, and, you know, that's taking some of the thinking away. There was one of your guests a few weeks ago and he was, I can't remember who it was, but he's just talking about the skill of the photographer in, you know, ISO and shutter speed and, and, and F stop and all those combination, you know, of the exposure triangle and just getting your way around the camera and setting up your buttons and all that kind of stuff. There's a skill to that. Absolutely, 100%. But if the camera can take some of that away so you can Concentrate on maybe some of the more important things from a volume photography point of view, then bring it on. Yeah, I'm not precious like that at all. I mean, I, I, we over the years have done a lot of kinder photography and photographing, you know, the activity photos of the, of the, the preschools and so forth, which I've always really, really enjoyed. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:00] Speaker C: But yeah, we, we take a, a fairly strong photographic approach to it. You know, sort of, you know, shallow depth of field, throw the background out of focus and all those kind of things, but, you know, focusing on the eye and, you know, I would miss shots all the time because, you know, the kid moves too quick or the camera's not quick enough. So, you know, I've spoken to a few people that have used mirrorless for kinders and the eye tracking and things like that. I mean, that's a gift. You're not gonna be, you're not gonna lose those moments. So, yeah, I'm, you know, somewhat, I think when my first five Mark II I picked up and when I took the first photo and it came up in the viewfinder, I almost cried. It was just so, such a beautiful thing. [01:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's, it is, it is nuts. And it's sort of. So we, when we were shooting weddings, we went through that period of time where we sort of went from shooting with, I guess, safer lenses to getting a bit more risky and a bit more creative with things like the Nikon. I know. Did you ever use the Nikon 105 1.4 lens? It magic, like just, it's, it had that kind of thing. Like I say, you shoot it wide open and you just cry because you're like, oh, my, my God, it's sharp. But it's just the creamiest. It was beautiful for weddings. And we started to get riskier and riskier with that sort of stuff. We were like, oh, maybe I'll, maybe I'll shoot the bride walking down the aisle with a 105 wide open and just, you know, get, get something. And, and that was with a great camera like the D850. Amazing autofocus. But you still had, you still felt like you were having to do work and be careful to try and get some shots in focus wide open with that lens. And then now it's like you put something like that on the R5 Mark II, then it just locks onto the eyes and tracks them around this. You can almost shut your brain off and get sharp photos wide open on that new camera. It's a different experience that's for sure. [01:06:05] Speaker C: I had, I had the, the good fortune of actually working for a different company. For the last three days I was at RMIT photographing their graduations and yesterday I was on the floor. So I'm not sure if, sure if you're familiar with how RMIT do their graduation ceremonies. They do it at Marvel Stadium. Nine thousand students are all graduating at once. So there's 20, there's 20 stages with about 500 in each stage. And so our role. So there's 20 photographers that all go and photograph the graduate receiving, you know, their, this scroll if you like, with the, the chancellor of that particular faculty. And yeah, just the eye tracking was just fantastic. You could just really concentrate on, you know, just capturing the moment, you know, which is critical and it happens so quickly. You've got to, you, you can't be mucking around with the focus. It has to be doing its job, you know, perfectly so you can, you know, get the moment really carefully. [01:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:03] Speaker A: Because there's no, there's no do overs with that sort of stuff. [01:07:05] Speaker C: No, no, absolutely not. It's funny though. It's a lot of, a lot of the, you know, you know, the high end lenses and all those things you were talking about, Justin, with the shadow focus and all those kind of things and creating those wonderful images and so forth as well. We occasionally, you know, will employ a photographer that knows it way around photography and lighting and you know, all the creative stuff. And so what we do in volume photography we have to keep things very, I suppose a uniform but also quite simple to set up and pull down and things like that because you just don't have time to be mucking around with, you know, five lights, you know, for example, and, but we, you know, our end product is, is fantastic. There's no issue with that. We color correct. Really well, we put a lot of effort into the capture the color correct and the printing. You know, each stage we do very. But we never, you know, we don't have ratio lighting, we don't have hair lights, we don't, you know, light the background and all those kind of things that you could do if you have the time and if you're creative and all those kind of things. But we never ever receive comments from parents or teachers or students or you know, the customer saying, except photographers, why aren't you using this and why aren't you using that? You know, it's sort of. Yeah, it's actually quite stunning. [01:08:22] Speaker B: A lot of that stuff is for the photographer. [01:08:25] Speaker C: Oh, 100%, you know, like, it's. [01:08:27] Speaker B: And it was the same with us with weddings. I mean, arguably, like, there are some moments with weddings where the background's distracting. You don't have control. You're not lighting anything. So being able to sort of obliterate the background with a. With a lens like the 105. 1.4, of course, was useful. And the. The couples don't know that it's happening, but they just like what the images are or whatever. Yeah, but, you know, we shot for ages with just the old, you know, a 15 to 35 or 16 to 35. It was then 2.8 or even. We were using F4s for a while on one camera and then the 7202.8 on the other camera. And everyone loved those photos too, you know, like, it does. You know, it. Yeah, I think. [01:09:11] Speaker C: I think. Was it Joel you had a few weeks ago? [01:09:14] Speaker A: Yep. [01:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a great episode. I enjoyed listening to him talk about. Yeah, particularly. Yeah. Just. It's about the moments, you know, and sort of. And, you know, if. So film does that for him, you know, and. Or any good photographer that. That's, you know, capturing people, you know, or photography in general. It's about moments. And so that's what. That's what it's about. I think there's one school that we would challenge photographically, which I actually really enjoyed the challenge. We were. We were asked to location portraits. So rather than, you know, in the studio with the backdrop and all that kind of stuff, we're actually asked to use locations at the school. And this particular school had five campuses. So every school, we had to find a location either inside or outside or whatever else and pushed us photographically. And one of the. One of the more challenging. Challenging ones was photographing in a church, sort of up on the altar, showing the stained glass windows. So we did it a few ways over a few years that we would have to sort of rely on the ambient light and then match that with the flash and then adjust our shutter speed as the ambient light changed. In particular to pick up the detail of the stained glass windows. So we had to crank the ISO up and. Yeah, so that was. And then you're working under pressure, you know, the students are coming through very quickly, all that kind of thing. At one stage, we actually set up lights outside to backlight the. You know, the stained glass windows as well. [01:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:49] Speaker C: So, yeah, it's certainly not afraid to. To push ourselves creatively and photographically where needed. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but you don't. You don't need to do that just because you have the skills. And then, you know, like, oh, this school's hired me to do this. I better set up nine lights and. And backlight the windows when it's not required at all. You know what I mean? I see what you're saying. It's like, it's. Yeah, but sometimes us as photographers, we get excited by the skills that we have and the knowledge that we have, and we want to just show it off all the time when it's often not required. Yeah, yeah. [01:11:24] Speaker C: However, on the flip side, I think from a creative point of view, I can't remember her name, for goodness sake. At bfop, I saw her presentation. She was. She did some work at Xavier College, where she was in, doing a residency as an art artist there. And so her expertise is photographing. Yeah. Portrait portraits of people, but in there that she builds the set and so forth. Do you guys. Can you help me out with her name at all? [01:11:56] Speaker B: I don't think I saw that. I don't think I saw that one. [01:12:00] Speaker C: Oh, but she would put so much effort into the. The design and the construction, particularly the design, and, you know, interview the person and get to know what their ins and outs were and so forth and create these beautiful sets. Very, very cinematic. And yeah, we photograph at a few schools where they have a dining hall because they might have borders on site and so forth, and in their dining hall will be all the. The Harry Potter portraits of the former headmasters and so forth. And they're all stunning, beautifully painted and whatever else. And I was thinking that, yeah, this particular photographer, you know, should be in there photographing and doing, you know, building those wonderful sort of cinematic sets and so forth. [01:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. Yeah, because that's. That's an element of photography that's often forgotten about, is the. Yeah, you can create the backdrop, you can create the background. It's not. Not always just what can we control with our camera and our lights? But, yeah, there's a lot more to it. Yeah, it's certainly not something I have much experience with. I'm not very good at creating things. I'm better at documenting things. [01:13:06] Speaker A: But that's okay. I set up some good shots for Lucky Straps products. [01:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. But even then I prefer to. I prefer to put them in a situation rather than trying to create a situation. You know, I'm not good with like, okay, here's a blank desk. I'm going to get props and create something that looks like, you know, the way probably a lot of product photographers would normally Work where they're kind of starting off with a blank slate and then they create this scene. Yeah, that's not me. I want to walk into like a weird looking shed or something and pop it on a shelf and be like, cool. That's the shot that I want. [01:13:43] Speaker C: When I judge camera clubs, I sort of talk about, you know, the process of photography and so forth and the, A lot of the images that I see that are presented to me and they kind of fall simply, I suppose into two categories. You know, as photographers we either capture moments or we create moments. So. And there's some very talented camera club photographers that, you know, do still life. But I always say to anyone that does. Anyone that's submitting studio or still life or I always say to them, you only have yourself to blame because you're controlling every element of this photograph. [01:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's terrifying. [01:14:22] Speaker C: So there's. The pressure's on. So if you have that blank slate and you've got to create. Yeah, I understand what you're saying, Justin. It can be quite. It can be a bit intimidating, you. [01:14:30] Speaker A: Know, if you're depressing the shutter button is almost the last step in the process, isn't it? You know, you've got potentially hours of work beforehand to set up a still life fine art shot, especially with a model. There's a lot of work involved. [01:14:46] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely, yeah. [01:14:48] Speaker A: You know, product photography is different because they behave and they stay still, your subjects. But when you're working with models or you know, even people that set up fancy shot, like the whole. We're talking with Emily Black last week. Was that. No, a couple of weeks ago. And you know, she, she started off doing newborn photography around the Anne Geddes period, you know, and it was all about building a narrative and then placing the baby in the last minute and then getting the shot while the baby was in the state of being calm and relaxed or whatever it was, because that's going to change in an instant, you know, fascinating process. [01:15:29] Speaker C: I enjoy that. Sorry, that, that interview with Emily or that episode. All your episodes are great. But I enjoyed the Emily one in particular because she was, as she said, the. The president of the Victorian chapter of the aipp. And she was prolifically batting for us during COVID and lockdowns for volume photographers. Specifically at points she was fighting for all photographers, but in particular she was fighting for the volume photography industry. So, yes, thank you, Emily, for all that hard work that you did back then. [01:16:04] Speaker B: So cool to hear, to hear those things that a lot of us don't realize are happening in the background that someone's doing that work and advocating for people in the industry. [01:16:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, she was amazing. [01:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:21] Speaker B: Philip Johnson, who was at Beef up as well, I think the photographer was Karen Dobier. [01:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, yeah, she. There was a great. I really enjoyed her presentation and her work and ethos and whole process and so forth. So, Greg, I have, I have a question for you. You said you're doing. You're doing a presentation at some camera clubs with. In regards to ethics. [01:16:46] Speaker A: Yes. [01:16:47] Speaker C: So when 1. I've had a chat to a few clubs about this and I'm. I'm interested in you on your take on it. So occasionally I will judge images and rate them fairly highly because, you know, as an image alone, they're great, you know, and they are worthy of commentary and, and accolades if that's what the club wants me to do. Workshops, there's, there's, you know, there's a lot of photo walks and there's a lot of sort of workshops with models and so forth. And, and when I see these images come through or. Sorry, sorry. When I see images of models being photographed and so forth, and I have in the back of my mind, has the photographer created this from scratch and pressed the button as a result of their hard work? And quite often I will see there's a steampunk model that I've seen at numerous clubs across numerous competitions over. Over the course of time. And so I know very well that they're, you know, from a workshop. So I, I then have in the back of my mind, okay, well, the image is actually really good. [01:17:48] Speaker A: It. [01:17:49] Speaker C: But how much work has that photographer put into that image? And arguably how much of the image do they own? Now, I don't talk to the club like this. It's just an. In a dialogue I have, and maybe I'm crucified for it. And I occasionally will speak to clubs about that as well. On the flip side, you know, sometimes clubs will have, you know, I don't know, a. A workshop where that they'll bring animals to the club or insects and so forth. And I've definitely rated some of these images really high, but literally the photographer has just pressed the button. The lighting, the insect placement, the scene, the set has all been created by someone else. Yeah. Yes. Have I opened a can of worms? [01:18:34] Speaker A: You have, but it's a really tasty can, I think. You know, like, I'm a street photographer. That's my fun is documenting the human experience. As we talked about earlier, which is predominantly why I went to Japan five times because I wanted to document how a place that I'm absolutely fascinated with and it's kind of my spiritual happy place. I'm not spiritual at all, but it, it kind of feels like that to me when I go there. There's a lot of ethics around street photography and who, you know, if I'm taking photos of strangers, you know, and they don't know about it or they don't approve it or whatever it may be, I don't seek permission. You know, where do I stand with that in terms of ethics and morals? But I think, I think there's different. There's different. There's like a scale, I guess, in a way with who owns the image. Even in a, in a staged setting, like a camera club where they bring a great model in, they know that the model is great, the model knows how to do everything. They don't need much direction, but they're doing their own poses, you know, and so you're right, there is very little that the photographer has to do. But I think in other situations where the photographer, like our friend Ian Tan, who was a cosplay photographer, he ran the workshop at BFLOP as well. And he's been on our show in the past, good friend of mine, and I've watched him do cosplay photography. And yes, these people spend months prepping their costume. The photographer has nothing to do with it, that part of it. And they spend hours doing their hair and makeup and prepping their costume to then walk through the hall at Comic Con and meet up with Ian. But what I think the photographer brings to those pre prepared kind of interactions is their connection with the model. And I guess an understanding or an unspoken contract or a spoken contract around this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And this is why do you do what you're doing? Why do you dress in cosplay? What do you get out of it? What are your favorite fandoms? And I would watch Ian work and he would create a connection that had absolutely nothing to do with the photography. The taking the photo was the end product. But he still put in hard work to create that relationship, to gain the cosplayers trust, to understand the law around the character, you know, and it's the same with steampunk people. That's just another form of cosplay in a way. It's not necessarily attached directly to a fandom, you know, like, like Demon Slayer or Monster Hunter or Star wars, but it's still, there's still a story behind it a narrative. So I think there's ethics in photo morals and ethics in photography can be a very muddy water because we all bring to the table our biases and our experiences. And some people, for example, with street photography, some people don't agree with. I think it's immoral and unethical to take strangers photos without their permission, you know, and I've been accosted on the street for taking people's photos and, you know, I've seen one photographer almost get into a fist fight with a, with a subject over it. But does that mean it's. Whilst it's perfectly legal, is it right to take photos of strangers without their consent? You know, there's a whole, it just, it opens up that can of worms, that tasty can of worms about what is right and wrong in photography. I haven't written my talk, by the way, I'm just spitballing. But it is an interesting concept because we also have the other side of ethics in photography that we didn't ask for, but we're getting, is the whole impact of AI and also around how we edit photos. You know, more and more of our editing platforms, Lightroom, Photoshop, Capture one, they're, they're embracing AI technology to make the process for us simpler, to take a lot of the thinking out of it. Does that mean that we're, are we contributing to an AI generated world of photography? You know, are we. By using those, you know, like the, the AI Denoise in Light Shop, in Lightroom, for example, you know, it's, it's saving us time. But can we really claim that we edited that photo completely? [01:23:19] Speaker C: You know, so the same could be kind of applied to, you know, so, so as a analog film photographer or as someone who started as a, as a film photographer, particularly when I shot color negative, I would drop my film off to my favorite lab down here in Geelong, run by a very talented guy, Dick Sailor. And the images that I got back were always top notch. The skin tones were where they needed to be and they were beautiful. Now I didn't do that. Yeah, the lab did that. [01:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:54] Speaker C: So, yeah, that's, it's kind of, that's, you know, a big discussion. We can talk about this for a long time, I suppose. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:00] Speaker B: And it's a little bit different of a discussion to what you were talking about with when it comes to camera clubs or even by extension like larger photography awards, you know, what used to be the AIPP Awards or whatever it was, you know, like those, those sort of larger awards. If you're if you're taking a photo that has a model in it at a workshop, and the photographer that runs the workshop has set up the lighting, and there's also 10 other people that are taking shots, and they each get their five minutes or whatever. And the model knows how to pose. It's. On one hand, it is a little bit like, you didn't really create that photo. Like, if we stripped the equipment down and said, okay, start again. Even with the same model. Because the models are great. Like, you can famous fashion photographers work with famous models all the time. That doesn't. Just because that model knows exactly what to do. Actually, there's a. There's a good example of this. There's a YouTuber called Peter McKinnon. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. He's famous YouTube guy, like, 4 million followers or whatever. Photographer, good photographer, and great video maker. He got to shoot with. Gosh, what's that actor's name? [01:25:28] Speaker A: Oh, that narrows it down. [01:25:29] Speaker B: Sorry, this story sucks, guys. You'll have to be. I'll make the story better, I promise, when I figure out the dude's name. He's a little famous. What's that guy's name? I've literally got him. Here he is. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You guys will know because you've probably seen it on YouTube. Super famous actor. He got five minutes to shoot with him, and the actor knew exactly what to do. Like, because Peter McKinnon started by saying, oh, you know, are you ready? Or whatever. And the guy said, just start shooting. I'll do it. Let this actor and, like, mess with his head, because he was very nervous as it was. And as soon as Peter McKinnon started taking photos, the dude was just doing the, you know, doing the looks that he's done a million times for a million shots over his career. Hang on, let me bring it up. And. But that doesn't. Like, that happens all the time in professional photography once you start working with actors and models and experienced people in front of the camera. So that doesn't. That doesn't necessarily mean the photographer isn't doing work, but that's right. That next extension of, like, all right, there were 10 photographers here, and a workshop instructor set the lighting up. Everyone essentially took the same photos with slightly different compositions, and now we're submitting them for awards. Grading. I think if you know that as a judge, you've really got to then start just grading it purely on composition and sort of the things the photographer could control. But Everything else is like, well, that could have been any scene set up by anyone else anywhere. So the only thing they were really controlling was composition and I don't know, also, I guess it's a camera club awards thing. So it's. [01:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah, the stakes change. [01:27:34] Speaker B: That's right. [01:27:34] Speaker A: For them, it's more of a learning experience and an opportunity for everyone to try the same thing. But when you're doing something, like you said, and I think Lauren said, it's Kiefer Sutherland. Was that the actor? Yeah. [01:27:47] Speaker B: Yes. That's trying to. Yeah. So he. It was. This is Peter McKinnon's dream to photograph this guy. He was getting a hat made off one of Peter McKinnon's friends, like this custom hat. [01:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:58] Speaker B: In five minutes in the shop to do a shoot with him. And, yeah, you just see, like, in that situation, as much as Peter McKinnon is. Is quite a decent photographer, Kiefer Sutherland was the professional in that situation. [01:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:14] Speaker B: And made that. But, you know, the guy's still a photographer. He still took the photos. [01:28:21] Speaker C: He would have trolled. He would have controlled, obviously, the lighting and the choice of background and. And, you know, the camera tech, all that kind of stuff. [01:28:29] Speaker B: All of that. He was shooting stuff on film. He did. He. So it wasn't like no one else set everything up for him. It wasn't that situation. But I was just kind of sort of saying, like, with regard to, hey, it's this steampunk person who's great at, you know, posing and stuff, because they've done it a million times, so they're going to do the look. It's not like the photographer had to sculpt them into a great pose or whatever. Yeah, but that happens at different levels for all photographers, depending on who they're working with. [01:28:59] Speaker A: But, yeah, it comes back to, like we said, about what are the stakes and what's the context? You know, if you. If you rock up to your local camera club and they've got us and you also did a. Do a bit of commercial photography and they post it to the group. Group as we're getting in. X, She's a steampunk model. She's coming in. We're going to set up in the laneway behind the club because it's, you know, kind of a bit grungy and. And everyone can have a chance to take photos. We'll have lights, we'll have, you know, all that sort of stuff. If you then go and use that, you end up capturing a good photo and you then go and use it, in your commercial work to, you know, promote a product or ends up on a billboard. Well, that's different. Different because that was never the agreement to begin with. And that's where your, your communication with whoever you're, whether it's spoken or unspoken, whoever you're working with, is really critical about establishing a context and, and understanding, you know, what do you want to get out of this shoot? And. Well, this is what I want to get out of this shoot. Is that, is that okay with you? Is that me? Your expectations of this experience. You know, photography should be experience for everyone involved. But, but, you know, the, the question around ethics, which is, you know, why I keep putting off writing this talk. It's coming up very quick. I've known about it for like six months, but it's coming up very quickly. Is it such a, it is such a can of worms. It's a big, big can. [01:30:32] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. Going. Gary, finish your thoughts. [01:30:34] Speaker A: No, no, you're right. [01:30:35] Speaker B: No, no, I was just gonna say. [01:30:37] Speaker A: Just. [01:30:39] Speaker B: A similar, but different context is so in the wedding industry, there was always wedding workshops, styled shoots and actual jobs and, and there was second shooting for more experienced photographers. [01:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:56] Speaker B: And you see tons of people putting images from workshops and styled shoots into their portfolio when they're newer photographers and just pretending that they shot that wedding on, you know, like this, this amazing looking bride who's actually a model. They're literally shooting over the shoulder of a workshop instructor who's, who's, who's actually styling the model and making them move around and all that sort of stuff. And the same thing, even with a second shooter. So there was, there was this sort of unwritten rule that, and we always told everyone this and pushed the same sort of thing that if you didn't actually get paid to shoot that wedding or it's a styled shoot or whatever. It's simple, share it. But you just have to say, that's all you have to do is say, oh, I shot this while I was working as a second shooter for Jim the wedding photographer. [01:31:48] Speaker A: Or you have it, you have a conversation with Jim. Yeah. Or the workshop instructor or. And the models. [01:31:54] Speaker B: Exactly. And all the workshops that we went to always said the same thing. They were like, hey, this is totally cool. You can share this stuff on your website or your blog or your inter. Just simply say, I shot this while I was at a workshop with, you know, with this person was a great experience or whatever. Don't pretend that you shot the wedding because you're. Then it's false advertising because you didn't actually. You, you might have pressed the shutter button. Button, but you didn't do all of the work behind that. And it, it's particularly different on a wedding day because it's very easy to get that shot when you've got unlimited time and a paid model, as opposed to you've got 20 minutes between the ceremony and the reception, you know, with someone who's not a paid model to try and get that shot. So it was like, don't, don't set up false expectations for your customers was the main thing. Like, like you're literally doing yourself a disservice because they're going to expect this, but the reality is going to be this. [01:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And Jim, Jim has pretty much echoed that. [01:32:53] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [01:32:54] Speaker A: Which is great. And I think you're right. I mean, you know, we talk about morals and ethics in street photography. It's a really hot topic because everyone has become so much more aware of their rights. You know, back in the 50s and 60s when street photographers were running around New York with, with, with you know, flashbulb cameras, shoving them in people's faces and, and actually documenting the shock value of being photographed, things were a bit different. The world was simpler. [01:33:22] Speaker B: Well, it was sort of like, where did that photo go? You people were probably thinking, well, it's either going in a newspaper or, I don't know, just, just kind of disappears into someone's film collection. It wasn't going to get put on social media, you know. [01:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Or the dark, or dark web, whatever that is. You know, it wasn't going to be used for inappropriate, it wasn't going to feed AI to create porn or, you know, there's a lot more involved in having your photo taken these days. But some of the chat made a very. Paul Henderson made a very good point. [01:33:52] Speaker B: Oops. [01:33:52] Speaker A: That. [01:33:53] Speaker B: Sorry. [01:33:53] Speaker A: Stop it, Stop it. Great, great question, Greg. I'm keen to do street but not game for that reason. On other side, they are happy to record everyone's life on their phones and sell or post to get likes and traction and all of that stuff that they would be the first to complain if you walked up and took a photo. I agree with your sentiment. And you know, I've had, when I've been doing street photography, I've been confronted by people saying, you don't have permission to take my photo. And my philosophy around that is it's not worth an argument, it's just a photo. It's just for my, my experience and my desire to document humanity interacting with a world that it doesn't make sense. And, you know, and sometimes I say, well, it's fine. I don't have to keep it. I can delete. I can show it to you, but I can certainly delete it. It's not a problem at all. But just so you're aware and you don't run into trouble in the future, I don't need your permission to take your photo on the street. I appreciate what you're saying. It's. It means nothing to me to get rid of it. I do this as a hobby. And, you know, like you again, you create context, you have a conversation. But yeah, people have become more aware in some ways, they've become more educated in other ways. They've become easily fooled by fake news around. Fake news. I can't believe I said that. Around. You know what, what we do and don't have a right to photograph as photographers. You know, like, technically, I can stand outside your house with a telephoto lens and take a photo of you getting out of bed in the morning. [01:35:26] Speaker B: Justin. [01:35:27] Speaker A: Not saying that's happened. [01:35:29] Speaker B: My blinds are closed. [01:35:30] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [01:35:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:31] Speaker B: You must have a cool camera. [01:35:33] Speaker A: I do. My camera inside your room. Oh, yeah. You know, but that doesn't mean I would do that. I don't stand outside Justin's house with the telephoto lens trying to capture a photo of his pp, you know, I just don't. It's not in my wheelhouse. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even as a street photographer, I still have rules about who I will and won't photograph. Even though I have a right to photograph anyone I want. It doesn't mean that I abuse that privilege. I abuse that. That angle of the law that lets me do that. You know, I won't photograph children. I won't. I won't photograph anyone in a school uniform. I won't photograph homeless people unless they. Unless I approach them and ask them, or they ask me to, or they choose to pose, you know, get in the way sort of thing. I don't photograph people that. For a couple of reasons that are clearly affected by drugs, substances or situation. Because I don't think it's fair necessarily. But also I prefer to avoid conflict. And I live in the city, you know, there's a lot of rough people around and you've got to be careful, too. So I guess it's about the context of what you're doing and why. Yeah, that's a long answer. Sorry, Mark. [01:36:49] Speaker C: That's all right. [01:36:50] Speaker B: Circling back to the Kind of effort, I guess. Where do you. Yeah, effort versus points kind of side of things. And you said it, you mentioned it about film photography. You know, used to drop it off and it would just get done and they looked amazing. And does that affect. So how important, from a judging point of view, how important is how I created the photograph? To judging the photograph purely with no backstory. Here's the picture. Tell me about it. Because even some. This. It's. It's a shame. I. This is the first week that I haven't had any photos to submit. This would have been fun. Sorry to let you. Sorry to let you down. You know, like, a lot of the weeks that I've done this 12 image challenge, I've shot JPEG straight out of camera. And I always mention that because it's harder. So the fact that the photos may not be perfectly composed or whatever, the horizons ever so slightly crooked or something, I felt it important to tell people, hey, I shot these JPEGS straight out of camera. But from a judging point of view, does that matter? Or is it just still like, hey, that's not good. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? So it's sort of like, you know, how much control did you have over this process? And does that affect the score that you would give? Like, if I said, hey, I shot this, I didn't use my hands, I operated the camera with my mouth to shoot this photo, would you be like, okay, well, that, that actually I'm gonna. I'm gonna award it more points than I otherwise would have. You know, if you had said, I had a team of 20 photographers helping me capture this image, you might say, well, it could probably be better than what it is then, because, you know, it's. Does that make sense? How important is how hard the backstory of how hard it was to capture that photo? You know, workshop versus. [01:38:53] Speaker C: Yeah, If I photograph a, you know, an open competition, which means at any genre, there's no locked in offset subject, any image can go in. So I suppose, firstly, I'm looking for, you know, images with impact, with a bit of depth, with a sense that I can see that the photographer has got an eye and has captured a moment by doing this, that or the other, and the difficulty of the particular genre, you know, so, you know, there's different kinds of photography that require different skills, so that comes into it as well. I'm acutely aware, though, that, you know, camera club people, some don't have access to post production, and sometimes those images come in and they're flat and they need a tweak and whatever else. So. And I think why I do well as a judge is that I'm very diplomatic and I'm encouraging and because I understand, you know, how camera clubs work in that, you know, they're enthusiasts, you know, and there are professionals in, in camera clubs because they, they like the camadre and, and the, you know, the relationship building and being around people and photographers and so forth. But there are, there are people in there that you don't have the facility for post production. So I'm very lenient on those images. But I will suggest, well, you know, if you had done this, you know, if you had the facility in post production, I understand that you don't or not everyone does, but it would be worth considering doing those kind of things. So I think the way I judge at a camera club is very, very different than I would for, you know, a professional kind of competition and so forth as well. But, but I would challenge Justin. I really like your approach, you know, with what you're doing with your, your, your weekly challenge and so forth as well. But I'll go back to the point that in the film days you would drop your film off and it would be processed and you would have it looking pretty schmick. The exception to that would be black and white. Unless you've got someone to print it for you, you would have to print it yourself. But yeah, generally photography in the film days, always when they ended up being a print, had processing, there was no sort of just straight out of camera. That's a, that's a modern digital statement. [01:41:14] Speaker A: It's also a bit of a myth too. [01:41:16] Speaker C: The exception to. Yeah, it is. Yeah, absolutely. The exception would be shooting transparency where there is no, there's no post production whatsoever. You had to get it completely right in camera. And that's, as a photographer, how I learned I actually discipline of shooting transparencies. You had to shoot to print, you had to shoot, you had to crop. There was no post cropping, there was no post production, there was nothing. So that's probably the only parallel I can see with, you know, with what you're doing. I listen to your podcast more than I watch it because I do a lot of driving with work. However, I did see your episode, I think, with your first set of 12 images from Vietnam. [01:41:57] Speaker B: Okay. [01:41:57] Speaker C: The green theme. [01:41:58] Speaker B: I think it was the green theme. [01:42:00] Speaker C: Yes. [01:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:42:01] Speaker C: And they, they were great images. [01:42:02] Speaker B: So thank you. [01:42:04] Speaker C: Maybe what you should do is that. [01:42:05] Speaker A: That'S so nice of you to say, Mark. [01:42:08] Speaker C: Maybe what you should do for those that can only listen to the show is have the critique of, of Justin's images at, you know, the one hour mark. So I can then go onto YouTube and go to that point every week. You know, I've listened to it now I'll just go and jump in and. And see your images at a particular time. [01:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Well, I've thought about making them into separate videos because we can just take that clip and, and upload that as its own. [01:42:33] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, or something. [01:42:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do. [01:42:36] Speaker B: We can put it. [01:42:37] Speaker A: We're looking at all of those things for the new year. Mark, I have a question regarding your, your judging experience over the years and have you noticed just in general do you think that you know, judging clubs, sticking at a club level, which as you said are mostly enthusiasts, a few amateurs, a handful of pros. Do you think the quality of photography has improved over the years or do you think it has? There's a consistency of output that comes through. The reason why I'm asking is that, you know, compared to say early digital and especially analog film cameras, current gen digital cameras as we've talked about, make photography simpler and easier to get stunning outcomes purely through the gear, more so than skill. You know, like I just looked at Panasonic are launching it or have just announced a brand new cropped micro four thirds camera. It's an entry level, enthusiast level. No, it's an entry level camera but it has image stabilization and the image that you can set it to actually shift the sensor to create a perfect horizon line in every shot even if your camera is tilted slightly. So if you think oh yeah, like I'm going to grab it, it's pretty close. I've got my image stabilization on. It's going to shift. It's actually going to shift the image and make it straight for you, you know, so that's just one little action cameras already do. [01:44:10] Speaker B: That's interesting. Yeah, like goes and stuff. Have that obviously more for footage, not for photos. Yeah, that's an interesting feature to put in that I've never. Yeah, that's very clever. [01:44:19] Speaker A: So it's, it is clever but you know, it composition, especially knowing where the horizon is is one of the fundamental, I mean it's a fundamental aspect of human existence that we look to a horizon to gauge where we are and how we are positioned in the world. And photography is no different. Right. Because that's, you know, we use horizon for reference and context. And scale, you know, are images getting better because of the quality of cameras is improving? [01:44:55] Speaker C: Well, I, I think since I've been judging, I think working camera clubs is definitely getting better, which is great, I think. I think that's a really, really good thing. And I think the quality of cameras definitely allows for better technical image making, no question. [01:45:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:17] Speaker C: And so I do a presentation and I talk a lot about this when I judge is that we're at a point now, I think, where, like traditionally camera club, and particularly back in the very early days when I started judging, it was very technical because it had to be because, you know, the learning curve of film and understanding all those kind of things was fairly critical. You know, if you didn't understand the technical, you weren't going to get an image that was acceptable. [01:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:44] Speaker C: So, yeah, my advice to new photographers nowadays would be that you can actually concentrate your learning curve in the creative side first. Forget the technical stuff. You can shoot in all the different, various auto modes that all the different models have quite effectively, and you can, you know, and I always encourage, you know, train your eye, you know, look at the art side of what you're doing, you know, rather than the technical side. So when I judge, to get back to your question, if I see a technically perfect image that's cold, as in, you know, it doesn't have any heart or warmth or a story or something like that, well, I can judge it on the technical elements, but I'm interested in being moved by an image. [01:46:30] Speaker A: Now. [01:46:31] Speaker C: There's, there's some genres of, you know, of photography that, that doesn't, you know, you don't, not every image has to move you. That's, you know, that, that's, that's fairly obvious. But I enjoy seeing images that, that, that tell a story, have captured a moment or, as I said, a moment has been created. Yeah, I'm interested in storytelling. I, I, you know, when I judge, I go on these rants how I imagine what has happened either prior or after the photo's been taken. And, and quite often I, I will engage with the photographer, if they're there, and ask the question, you know, what, what's the backstory or, or what's happened? [01:47:08] Speaker A: Get the context. [01:47:09] Speaker C: Yeah. So I'm a judge. That's very, very much based on the storytelling element and capturing moments, you know, of humanity or, or whatever it might happen to be. You know, it just depends on the image and so forth. But I, I think there are lots of technically proficient images in camera clubs, and that's as a direct Result of the technology. Yeah, but I push camera club people in my critiquing and in my presentation into. Go beyond that, you know, and, and look for opportunities to, to capture a feeling or, or a moment that hopefully can be enjoyed by the viewer. You know, there's this whole thing, I think, with, you know, and you would have experienced this in Japan, Greg, you know, when you're overwhelmed, your senses are overwhelmed by wherever you may happen to be as a photographer. And one of your aims is to capture that moment, that feeling and all those senses that bombard you, the way you see and hear and smell and all those kind of things. If you can encapsulate that into a photograph and let that viewer experience that, I think you're halfway there on doing your job. Yeah, true. And that's. [01:48:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't even have to be a technically good photo. [01:48:21] Speaker C: No, no. In fact, I've, I've judged, you know, recently images that are soft and I'll say, look, this isn't technically perfect, but wow, what a feeling this has got. Fantastic. Well done. [01:48:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:48:32] Speaker C: You know, it doesn't have to be always technically perfect to be a good image. [01:48:36] Speaker A: So just for the record, Mark, and for everyone listening at home, I don't have to go all the way to Japan to become overwhelmed. I just get overwhelmed getting out of bed every morning by the sights and the smells and the sounds. So it's not, not, not location specific. Well, you know Sasha, she's, she's lovely, but she's very gassy. Might be bad. Just want to let everyone at home know if you're, if you're, if you're watching along, you're listening or watching along, you're listening. If you're watching or listening along. This is the Camera Life podcast. It's episode 40. What did I say it was? 43. How did that happen? 43. 19th of December. We're talking to Mark. I won't try to butcher your surname because believe Bluetooth. [01:49:26] Speaker C: Just make sure that the two syllables sound the same. [01:49:31] Speaker A: Which one? [01:49:38] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:49:38] Speaker A: We're talking to Mark. And just another reminder that the Camera Life podcast is brought to you by the lovely team at Lucky straps in Bendigo, Victoria. 100 Australian made camera straps. If you're a photographer, might not get it in time for Christmas. Now, Justin, look it. [01:49:57] Speaker B: Depending on where you are in the world, it would be a slim chance. [01:50:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:01] Speaker C: Quite a trip to Bendigo. [01:50:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Or that's not to say that after Christmas, surprises aren't welcome. [01:50:08] Speaker B: That's right. [01:50:09] Speaker A: We will be shipping. [01:50:10] Speaker B: We Will be shipping it tomorrow. [01:50:11] Speaker A: Sometimes there's romance in the anticipation of a new strap arriving. Oh, I should write blogs. So. Yeah. So check out the Lucky Straps website. Is there still a sale on? Was the sale over? [01:50:25] Speaker B: There's. We got some deals on some stuff. Go and have a look. [01:50:28] Speaker A: Yeah, check it out. Anyway, you know, thanks for sponsoring the website. Today's show. [01:50:34] Speaker B: Look at our fancy business cards. [01:50:35] Speaker A: I love mine. [01:50:37] Speaker B: Oh, it's not going to focus these damn cannons. [01:50:40] Speaker A: Actually I sent some. [01:50:41] Speaker B: It wants a face. [01:50:42] Speaker A: I sent some camera straps that I had here that you've given me to a winner of a photo competition at a club and I was so proud to put my, my fancy Lucky Straps card in there. Oh, Lauren. Lauren has a strap arriving today. [01:50:56] Speaker B: What, what brand is it? Lauren wants to kick you off the chat if it's not one now. I'm kidding. I'm sure it's one of ours. [01:51:02] Speaker A: Is it coming from Bendigo? Lauren, let us know. [01:51:07] Speaker B: Just quickly meet me. Pop now says digital has made it much easier and quicker to learn due to instant feedback. I 100 agree. I didn't take up photography until digital was around and I since have shot film. I don't believe I would have made it to the point of being a professional photographer if I'd, if, if it was film. I think the instant feedback for my learning style was, was what enabled me to, to progress and I don't think I would have had the patience to do that with film. I know you guys can probably talk more to it, but I think there was a lot more documenting your settings, you know, all of that kind of stuff in the learning process to go, oh, what went wrong? What went right? Because. And I think I would have lost that by the time I got my film back. I would have thought, oh, I can't remember what I did with that one or whatever. And I think that that learning loop wouldn't have worked for me. [01:52:03] Speaker A: I think also, yeah, at the time when you know, like Mark and I were shooting film, we didn't have YouTube, we didn't have Instagram, we didn't have access to the Internet at all. And you know, my, my media at the time was carrying a little notebook and a pencil. So I'd write down my settings and I'd write down what film and what, what came out of it and what the teacher had said. And you know, that was. I wasn't getting feedback and likes off social media. It was very analog, the whole end to end process. The other thing nowadays is that we have access to all of those things. We have access to watch YouTube videos until the cows come home. There's so much content about photography on YouTube, you'll die before you watch it all, you know, as macabre as that sounds. And so there's so much more to learn and we can absorb that very quickly on the way to work, lying in bed at night, anytime. It doesn't have to be a set, you know, we go off and learn how to use a camera in a classroom or online or sorry, via correspondence. If you're from the stone ages like Mark and you know, like it's, it's a very different world. And this is why we see these influence influences young kids running around the world with, you know, expensive cameras making content because it is very easy to learn digital photography and the cameras are. [01:53:24] Speaker C: Incredible with my learning curve, you know, because I was shooting transparency in film, you know, when I was doing my personal stuff, my growth was, it was pretty slow compared to what it would be now. I think even since digital, my photography has improved tenfold as well because of that instant feedback as well. Yeah, yeah, I know there's a year. [01:53:46] Speaker A: Takes so much longer too. Everything, you know, you had to wait till you got into the dark room and you had enough to actually warrant getting the chemicals out. And, and, and I, you know, when I first started film, I was a poor student living out of home. Like, you know, my friend and I built a dark room in his parents ensuite. Like you know, we, it was, you know, it was. And so we, we were juggling. Do we, do we buy chemicals or do we buy beer? Like, you know, there was serious life altering decisions. Exactly. [01:54:15] Speaker C: Did you ever get confused by the two? [01:54:17] Speaker A: Well, I have said this story before. My friend Luke, who's still into photography, we went to high school together and we turned. His parents had a holiday house and they'd pretty much retired and moved to their holiday house. So we turned their ensuite into a dark room. We painted it black and we, and because it had plumbing already in there, we pulled out the shower stall and we put in a bench that went sort of 2/3 of the way around the room. And above the bench was all photography. And below the bench was homebrew. It was our homebrew experiments. And every now and then we'd be working on, you know, in the dark room and we'd start to hear bottles pop because it had gotten too hot or too cold in the room. And you know, so yeah, they were fun times. Good way to learn the olden days. The olden days. [01:55:06] Speaker B: The olden days. Did you. Did you also get the horse and cart to school? [01:55:10] Speaker A: No, no, there's no need for that. No need for that. Customer. [01:55:14] Speaker B: Just the odd little jab. Santa Frog's back, he says. Merry Christmas, guys. Did he miss any giveaways? Maybe a Canon R1? No, we didn't give away an R1 on this episode, unfortunately. Actually, you'd probably be sad if we said we did and you missed it, so. Yeah, don't worry about that. And Lauren says she's been waiting, wanting a wrist strap for ages, but she didn't get it customized and has regrets. We. You can always send it back to us after Christmas and we can. We can stamp something on it, so don't worry about that. [01:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Just let us know. [01:55:45] Speaker B: Just let us know. Mark, what, like, what else. What else are you up to? Is there anything else you want to talk about while you're on this, on this podcast? What other cool stuff in the photography world have you been up to? Or you got any projects you're working on? Anything coming up? [01:55:59] Speaker C: Well, it's. I've always. When I'm photographing for myself, it's. It's not really been projected base. It's just been kind of go for a drive, find something, or whatever else. But I must admit, you guys have kind of inspired me a little bit, I think, both through what you guys talk about, but also some of your guests in, you know, passion projects and things like that. So that's something that I'm. I'm kind of sort of formulating in my mind, I suppose. [01:56:27] Speaker A: Mark, you've just made my day. You know why? Because Justin and I didn't start this podcast to become Insta famous or YouTube celebrities. We didn't start this podcast to just talk about what we wanted to talk about. We didn't start this podcast to promote lucky straps and. And bring customers to the business. We started this podcast or reignited this podcast to give back to the photography community. And you're saying that you and some of our guests has created inspiration for you to do something new and unique, that. That tells me that we've won. That's exactly what we set out to do. So thank you for saying that, because we're not here for the glory. We're here for photography and photographers. [01:57:11] Speaker B: It's worthy. Sound effects. [01:57:16] Speaker A: There it is. [01:57:19] Speaker C: Oh, look, I. I think the. It's interesting because I think photography can be such a solo pursuit and to. To, you know, encapsulate a little community. Like, I think what you're doing is. Yeah. Is a great thing. So keep up the good work, gents. [01:57:32] Speaker B: So you're thinking is any idea of a, of a project crossed your mind or are you just thinking a project would be cool or you got something that potentially in mind or something for 20, 25? You think you might. Oh, or a trip or something like that. [01:57:50] Speaker C: You're not quite sure? I think direct photography alone. Oh, well, a dream that I've had and I've never shared this with anyone, I don't think, to be perfectly honest. So over, over the years I've, yeah. One particular photographer friend, a very talented press photographer, Phil Biggs from the Launceston Examiner. We used to do a lot of slideshows, sort of create a slideshow with our images. In fact, it was very funny. We had two projectors, we had a bit of cardboard with like a saw sort of thing. And we would put the cardboard over one projector and then pull it away and then cover the other one and sort of have photos fade in from each other and so forth. And then we'd have a video camera filming the screen and playing a cd, recording it. It's just, you know, it was ridiculous. It was just. That was the only way we could do it back in the day, though. So obviously there's a lot of digital ways to create sort of audio visuals now and so forth as well. Really powerful, simple tools. It's crazy, but I, I, I remember being very inspired by a visit to Kakakadu in the 90s when Steve Parish in the visitor center had this fantastic slideshow. Multiple, multiple screams, multiple carousel projectors, which were the bees, knees of projectors back in the day. And they were somewhat programmable, I think, and it was multi screen, all these images going up beautifully. It would be fantastic to create an audio visual, multiple screens in a big sort of theater with a live orchestra. How's that? [01:59:34] Speaker B: Okay, that's. [01:59:35] Speaker A: Imagine that like that a lot. [01:59:38] Speaker B: That's so cool. [01:59:40] Speaker C: So whether that happens or not, I don't know. But sometimes just the process of dreaming is, is enough. [01:59:46] Speaker A: But yeah, great idea. Gosh, you know, how to go big or go home, man. [01:59:52] Speaker B: Imagine if that, Imagine if that was like, you know, because with an orchestra and that. So you'd imagine, you'd imagine if you had eight to ten photographers that each had a, you know, a song, like a song, a piece with their artwork, their creative vision. They're not necessarily all related or whatever, but it's, it's almost like a, yeah, each, each person gets sort of Three to five minutes of expressing their own imagery however they want, and then it sort of flows onto the next and the next. And maybe there is a theme throughout that whole thing or something like that. You could put, you could pull together a show based around that. [02:00:35] Speaker C: But rather than just having one screen, you have multiple screens with multiple images all sort of happening at once and creating a really visceral sort of experience. I, I, I also, it would be the Steve McCurry exhibition in particular, Warm the Cockles of My Heart, which I saw earlier in the year. His images, you know, are great. Did you see that, Greg, down in Williamstown? What impressed me mostly with his exhibition was the gallery space, which was the old dock thing down there in Williamstown. All the walls were black, but all the lights were cut to a point where the light just hit the images. And I've seen that in a few exhibitions. I think the War Memorial in particular do that extremely well. And I'm sure there's galleries everywhere and you know, the lighting technologies everywhere. But just. Yeah, I've got this whole kind of philosophy, you know, one plus one is not two, it's three. You know, you have good images in a good presentation or collaboration and then you have a greater entity, you know, and like a audio visual presentation with an orchestra might make a four or five. You know, maybe not just a three. [02:01:49] Speaker A: No, that's amazing. That's a really, that's a very, very cool idea. Thank you for sharing that with us. [02:01:56] Speaker B: Do it. [02:01:56] Speaker A: Look, do it. Yeah, yeah, do it. Make that your goal for 20, 25. [02:01:59] Speaker C: All right, here we go. [02:02:00] Speaker A: All right. [02:02:01] Speaker C: Is there any composers out there? [02:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I know one actually. He's composed for movies and other musicians. I do know a good composer and. [02:02:11] Speaker C: A lot of the soundtracks that I've done in the past for these, you know, audio visuals were always cinematic. They're always soundtracks for movies. Yeah. [02:02:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Interesting. All right, well, we talk after the show. Speaking of which, it Is, it is 5 past 11 Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, and we might look at wrapping it up. Mark, we could talk all day with you about this stuff that we do, this image making, reaction generating, you know, medium that we've chosen to, to dedicate our lives to, given the time. Do you want me to just grab a jump, a couple of quick news articles, Justin, that are a couple of headlines before we wrap up. [02:02:56] Speaker B: Up to you. Unless you want to save them for the next show. We do. We'll just do a news only show. Depends how timely they are. Are they? [02:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll just I'll just give you a couple of quick recaps, a couple of industry things that are happening. So Voigtlander have just dropped a new 90 mil F2 for M mount. Nothing outstanding, but they've also dropped a 28 millimeter 1.5 for Sony. [02:03:19] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. [02:03:20] Speaker A: So Voitlander, I didn't know that Voigtlander was owned by a Japanese company. Is it chorus, something like that? No. Anyway, the other bit of news that I thought was really interesting and we've talked about immersive Apple Vision Pro stuff in the past is that blackmagic have just announced a what's called the blackmagic Ursa Cinema. Blackmagic Ursa Cine immersive dual lens cinema camera. It has dual 8k lenses. Yeah. So 8k for one eye and 8k for the other and it's dedicated and they've even developed their own software to pair with Apple Vision Pro. [02:04:04] Speaker B: This is where it's going. It's, it's definitely heading that direction. I don't know what it's going to look like and how long it's going to take. But take notice if you're, if you want to be on the, the front foot for the whatever the next iteration of sort of audio visual is. It is, it is going to be immersive vision and that's why it's cool to see Canon like on the, on the front foot with yeah. Multiple lenses now. [02:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that was first. [02:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And you can put it on your regular camera. You don't need to buy R series, you know, your regular, sorry, R series camera. [02:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:37] Speaker B: But they even have a lens now for crop sensored R series camera. So you don't have to spend a fortune to start producing that content. But yeah, blackmagic are doing it means that it's, that's pretty big. [02:04:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And the, the blackmagic camera, it's, the lenses are fixed. It's not like they're taking one of their existing Ursas. Like you know, They've got a 17K camera. [02:05:01] Speaker B: So they've made it. There's no swap. It's literally that this, you buy this to do this one thing. [02:05:06] Speaker A: This is one job and I think it was about 18,000 probably US. No, sorry, I take that back. It's US$30,000. [02:05:16] Speaker B: Bargain. [02:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Let's get to. [02:05:18] Speaker B: That's 400,000 Australian dollars. [02:05:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:21] Speaker B: One bit. One Bitcoin. [02:05:23] Speaker A: 1.6 million yen. Yeah. So it's just an interesting development that you know a really reputable brand like blackmagic developing this not as an add on to an existing camera system, but a whole new platform. And it comes, it has two. It has dual 5 inch touchscreens. So you don't have to apply, you don't have to fit a monitor. You can obviously, but it's got these dual touchscreens. So depending on how you set up the camera in a rig, you can access it from either side. It's really quite a powerful piece of kit. But yeah, at that price, I don't think it's going to be in my Christmas stocking this year. [02:06:04] Speaker B: Probably not. [02:06:06] Speaker A: The only other thing Nikon Z9 dropped, a firmware update. It adds tilting shutter for video. I don't fully understand that technology but apparently it's been long, you know, because the Z Knight is the flagship and it does amazing work in videography and now it offers tilting shutter to further support videographers and cinema filmmakers, which is pretty cool. Okay. And it's not firmware. You have to send the camera back into the store to get fixed. Like the Canon APS C. Did you. [02:06:38] Speaker B: See that mark that Canon have on their APS C cameras? Introduced a paid firmware upgrade that be perfect for volume photography. It's like, like guides for. [02:06:53] Speaker C: Well it's. They say it on their website. It is full volume photographers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's very, very. [02:06:59] Speaker A: You've got to send it back into Canon to get it applied or you have to buy it with the firmware at a higher price. [02:07:06] Speaker C: I was, I overlooked those details. I just saw what is potentially a bit of a game changer. [02:07:13] Speaker B: I can imagine for you guys to have consistency across hundreds or thousands. [02:07:19] Speaker C: So our photographers, we encourage, well, we train them to shoot, to print. We don't post crop, we don't. Our workflow doesn't allow for it. So our photographers, unfortunately, they do a great job. However, the cameras don't have really great sort of internal in the, in the grid lines. You know, it's not perfect. So there's kind of photograph review, retake kind of thing. Something like that's a game changer. So yeah, I can look back, it seems simple. [02:07:50] Speaker A: It's just odd that you have to send the camera back in to get it done. [02:07:55] Speaker B: It seems like it's something that they should just roll out across every camera they make. If they've got the capability to do it. Wouldn't that be a massive boon? [02:08:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Back in, back in the film days with the. So these fantastic cameras. If I can pull it apart. Stuck had a prison that you could Take off and take out the focusing screen really easily. And so we would actually draw on. We would actually draw on the focus screens. You probably can't see it. [02:08:21] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [02:08:22] Speaker B: Awesome. So you just put your own guide in there. [02:08:24] Speaker C: Yeah, so we did that prolifically. [02:08:26] Speaker B: Did anyone draw a dick? Did anyone draw a dick on someone else's camera? [02:08:35] Speaker A: Thoughtful content that would have gone back to grade school. [02:08:40] Speaker B: Imagine if you're like ready to shoot. [02:08:44] Speaker C: Mark, I've been. I've been done again. [02:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah. On that note, I think we're going to wrap up. But first and foremost, I just want to say a huge thanks, Mark, for joining us today and for sharing so much of your story and your insight, your knowledge and your understanding of the craft that we all love and, and take part in. Where can people check out your work? We haven't even looked at a single one of your images. I've just done. [02:09:18] Speaker C: I. I have a little Instagram page that I post my personal work to. [02:09:26] Speaker B: It should be linked below. Yeah, sorry, go on. What? [02:09:30] Speaker C: Mark, Underscore Blut Blot. Underscore photog F O T O G or just look for Mark Blotoft and you'll see some of my images there. [02:09:39] Speaker A: So. Yep. [02:09:41] Speaker B: Nice. [02:09:42] Speaker A: Very nice. [02:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, we didn't even. We didn't even get a chance to scan through it. We did that last week as well. We just got too busy talking. We didn't look at any photos. [02:09:48] Speaker A: That's all right. It's better for the audio listeners. [02:09:50] Speaker C: It's good for. Yes, exactly. Then that's the category I fall into. And speaking of audio, let's just hear some beautiful sounds. [02:09:56] Speaker B: Oh, nice. Listen to that. [02:09:59] Speaker C: And then. [02:10:00] Speaker A: Oh, someone give me a towel. [02:10:04] Speaker B: Hey, and be quiet for this one. [02:10:07] Speaker C: How's that? [02:10:08] Speaker B: Nice. I'm going to sample that for my. My sound pad. [02:10:12] Speaker A: Very good clunk, isn't it? [02:10:14] Speaker C: And you sound just the engineering. Very impressive. [02:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I used to always love the shutter sound of pro digital bodies like the 1 series cannons and stuff like that. And I do miss shooting it. Electric shutter, like electronic shutter sounds I don't like at all. I like a nice clunk. I don't care if it makes the image less sharp. Very quickly, Greg, you can probably answer this buzz Advent is saying they talking about the new refreshed Lumix cameras. Is that what you were talking about with the. [02:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's. I think it's The Panasonic Lumix ZS 99 or 97, something like that. It was only announced a couple of days ago. Yeah, so, yeah, stay tuned for that. They announced that at another compact point and shoot at the same time. But other than that, the news has been mostly about sales the last month. Yeah, sales, deals, cashbacks, offers. It's, it's. Yeah, it seems to be just from my observation, because I deal with this stuff every day. This seems to be a real. I'm going to call it greed from a lot of the big retail places that they just like this morning I'm receiving emails saying Boxing Day sales starts early. So I'm getting styles for Boxing Day now. [02:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't look at that as greed. I would, I would potentially say that that's. I mean, if the deals are good. The deals. [02:11:46] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [02:11:47] Speaker B: So it's. I wouldn't look at his greed, but I would say maybe it actually is more so. [02:11:51] Speaker A: Desperation. [02:11:51] Speaker B: Desperation. Yeah, is what I would say. Maybe sales haven't been quite as good as they'd hoped, so they're pushing it harder. Yeah, everyone's trying to compete and it, and unfortunately it's a lot of noise and, and a lot of the deals haven't been amazing. And I think that's the same. [02:12:06] Speaker A: Like I'm sympathetic to businesses like yourself, like small, local, you know, you've got more to lose. And then the bigger brands who have that padding, especially when they're joined to a big global corporation, you know. But like I got an email from Big W and for the out overseas viewers and listeners, Big W is like a. It's like Kmart and Target. [02:12:30] Speaker B: Walmart. [02:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, this morning I got an email from them saying, you know, boxing down. So starts now. That's weird Christmas, like, come on. And Black Friday felt earlier for a lot of places they tried to get the jump on Black Friday and said early Black Friday sale. [02:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:12:47] Speaker A: And then early Cyber Monday and early Wacky Wednesday and what did I call it last week? Taco Tuesday. [02:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, just, just stick to like that's what we, when we did we do our family sale. But then when, when it's Black Friday, our sale starts on. I think I let, I start it technically on Thursday night because I didn't want to do it Friday morning. But like, yeah, it started on Friday. It's Black Friday. Don't, don't do Black November. Come on. [02:13:10] Speaker C: Yeah, just. [02:13:11] Speaker B: Let's just focus. [02:13:12] Speaker A: I don't know. I think I'm becoming a bit more cynical in my age. Shut up. Shut up. [02:13:20] Speaker B: That's not fair. [02:13:21] Speaker A: Anyway, on that note. Anyway, I'm Going to end this row. [02:13:25] Speaker B: Okay. I'm gonna see if I can get this. [02:13:28] Speaker A: Thank you again. [02:13:30] Speaker C: Thank you. [02:13:30] Speaker A: We would love to have you back on in the future. We're looking at having a bit of a. A group podcast with some fellow photographers like yourself that have judged competitions. Or perhaps we'll do one with people that do volume photography work and just have a roundtable conversation about the ins and outs of those. [02:13:48] Speaker B: I keep thinking. I'm getting to the point now where I'm starting to think maybe we need to start doing, like a wish weekly critique segment. Not that much critique, what I was thinking, because when we're talking about other people's, like, judging people's images and stuff like that, like constructive feedback on people's images, including mine. But like, just anyone, listeners, anybody that wants to submit an image, you know, whoever wants to pop on, can help give people some constructive feedback, like you do with camera clubs. And then if they want, they can tick a box that also says, roast me. And if they tick that box, willing for us to absolutely just tear it apart in a fun way. Yeah, I'd be happy for my images to get roasted. I think that'd be quite funny. I think that'd be fun segment next year, too, with some of these. We've had a few judges on, and they're all. It would be great to see if we can give some of that knowledge to people without. If they don't have access to a camera club or something like that, we might be able to do it on the show. So. [02:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. Sounds good. All right. [02:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Any final words, Mark? [02:14:52] Speaker C: Thanks for having us. Thank you for having me, J. It's been good. [02:14:56] Speaker A: Anytime. Been a blast. We love it. [02:14:59] Speaker B: And with that, let's get some Christmas music going. [02:15:02] Speaker C: Here we go. [02:15:05] Speaker A: Oh, it's building. I can feel it, people. [02:15:10] Speaker B: Merry Christmas. [02:15:12] Speaker A: Merry Christmas, Happy holidays, all of that. Bye, everyone. [02:15:19] Speaker B: Goodbye.