EP72 Chris Hopkins - A Career as a Freelance Photojournalist

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Well, good morning and welcome to the Camera Life podcast. It is the 24th of April, 2025. I hope you all had a amazing Easter, if that's something you celebrate. This is episode 72 of the camera Life podcast, proudly brought to you by Lucky camera straps out of Bendigo Victoria. Speaking of which, we've got head strap packer Jim with us today. G'day, Jim. How are you, mate? [00:00:26] Speaker B: Hey, Greg, how are you? [00:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm doing okay. Doing all right. Still kind of recovering from trying to get my brain into work gear after work mode after a few days. Kind of doing very little too much. No, I didn't, I. No, I've been avoiding the chocolate. Just. Yeah, just doing stuff around the house mostly. And we've all been crook. We've all had a flu here, so it's going around, that's for sure. I'm still sick from like two weeks ago. But enough about me. Joining us today is freelance photojournalist Chris Hopkins. Chris, welcome to the show. Great to have you on board. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Thanks, Greg. Thanks guys. Thanks for having me. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Yeah, no worries. So just a reminder that, that this is the. The Camera Life podcast. If you're new to the channel, if you're watching for the first time, if you stumbled across us at some stage down the track, make sure you like any videos that you watch. Make sure you subscribe and tickle the bell button so you get notifications. We run two podcasts a week. We've got obviously Thursday morning where we interview amazing photographic guests such as Chris and we also do a random photography show every Monday night at 7:30pm AEST where we just basically talk about photography, whatever's going on in the industry, what's going on in us, with us. So, yeah, so we'll, we'll kick off, Chris, just before we deep dive into your, your full story. Yeah, can you just give us a very quick summary of what it is that who you are and what it is that you currently do in the world of photography? [00:01:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm a freelance photojournalist based here in Melbourne. Most of my work is with local media outlets, specifically the Age and the Guardian. I, I do other work for like I have worked for the New York Times before. I freelance for Al Jazeera, who I write for as well. I do a little bit of corporate work, events, editorial style portraits, bigger campaigns for certain select sort of clients. I do a little bit of video work. Yeah, that's sort of me in a nutshell. It's different every day. You know, I do things like this I'll, you know, talk to education facilities about photography. Yeah, it's pretty varied. Yeah. But, yeah, nuts and bolts is photojournalism. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Photojournalism. Now, for those of you that are watching along, you may have noticed that Justin's not with us. He's got some family business to attend to today, so he won't be joining us. But obviously we've got Jim on board. And Jim, you were. You started off as a photojournalist yourself. Yes. So I imagine you, you two have a lot in common and a lot to discuss and learn from each other. So we, we're gonna, we're gonna dive into that. But just before we do, I think maybe we'll just jump to some comments to say good morning to everyone that' that's joined us already. Kicking off, we've got Bruce. Morning, Bruce. [00:03:18] Speaker C: Morning. [00:03:18] Speaker A: Great to have you on board. We've got Bruce coming up in a future episode soon, I think on a Monday night from memory. Maybe I've got that wrong, but it's very soon. Message from Justin. Sorry I couldn't be there today, guys. Very excited to listen to all the stories from Chris. And from the School of Light from Dennis. Hey, Dennis. Yay. He's on the road. Let's see how good the coverage is. Thanks for all you do, Chris. [00:03:41] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Hasn't even done anything yet. Jesus. Wookie. Shane, fellow Fujifilm photographer. Surprise, surprise. Good morning, all. Good morning, Shane. Philip Johnson. G'day, mate. Great to have you on as always. Nathan is back with us. Morning, Chris. And finally David from the Bay area of San Fran. Good afternoon, guys. So what time is it there for you, David? It must be late afternoon. That's morning for us. Yeah, sorry, I think it's morning for Jim. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:04:19] Speaker A: And another one just dropped in from David Dare Parker. Hey, guys. [00:04:23] Speaker C: Hey, David. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Great to have you on. Oh, we've got some big names dropping in now, David. We want to get you on the show. So stop avoiding our. Stop avoiding our pleads, please come on the show. And for David In San France, 4:00pm late afternoon. Welcome, everybody. Chris, before we get into your current body of work and some of the amazing projects that you've been working on, especially in the last couple of years. We want to dial back a bit to talk about your earlier inspirations. I think there's a lot of people in the photography world who maybe misunderstand and I'm just as guilty of this. I'm not a photojournalist and I don't, I don't pretend to be or know a lot about it. There's a lot of. Probably a lot of misunderstanding about what photojournalism truly is. And so we want to unpack that. But before we do, I always like to roll back with guests and talk about some of those earlier inspirations. So, you know, we're talking about whether you had a creative household growing up, whether you. You know, when you first picked up a camera and what was the inspirations behind that. So can you just talk us through the early days for you? [00:05:33] Speaker C: Yeah, early days. I guess I came to photography pretty late. Like, I'm. I'm 48 now, but I didn't graduate from college till I was. I like, early 30s as a kid. I sort of. I wasn't one of those kids who carries a camera around everywhere. Like there were cameras in the house. Like my mum. I remember we went to Papua New guinea on holiday and to see my grandparents and she bought a new slr, sorry, a, you know, like a nslr, and took that over there and I had a bit of a play and it was exciting, you know, because it was a camera and, you know, and stuff like that. But I never was one to carry one around. I got given one for Christmas one year and I remember taking it out to our friend's farm and doing pictures of horses and. And shadows of horses and thought that that was really creative. But I sort of. I never kept on with it. I used to draw a lot and I was a pretty quiet kid and, you know, I'd spend a lot of time by myself sort of drawing, drawing animals. I used to love wildlife. I mean, I still do. The household wasn't overly creative. My father's a classically trained guitarist, so. Music. There's a lot of music in our house and that's probably where. Yeah, I still draw a bit of inspiration from music. But then I guess sport took over. I was a reasonably good cricketer and. And that sort of took over my life a bit. So the creative side of things went out. Out the window and I sort of spent, you know, from the age of probably 11 to 20, just heavily involved in cricket and ended up that what. That's what took me overseas. And that started getting me. I started traveling. Having the chance to leave a small country town up near Mount Macedonia and just be by yourself. And I was traveling. It was just like this freedom that I'd never had before and, you know, start writing poetry and playing music and things like that. And that got the creative juices flowing again. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah, and. [00:07:34] Speaker C: Yeah, and not having to have that sort of sport and that very. I don't know, I sort of didn't. I started to not enjoy that. That scene, if you know what I mean. And then, yeah, got the chance to travel to Africa, which I'd always wanted to do, and I had a camera with me there. And that really got me going, like, well, shit, I really love doing this. I love taking pictures of wildlife. Maybe that's a career. And I'd already done an accounting degree by then, which was just not. I don't know. I don't want to sort of bag out accountants and people who have done it, but it was just not me. It was fucking horrible. [00:08:10] Speaker A: It's okay. My parents wanted me to be an accountant and I. All I wanted to do was draw. I was like, you. I just. I love drawing. [00:08:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. I did it for three months in London and I was like, what the fuck am I doing? Is horrible. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Horrible. [00:08:23] Speaker C: So, yeah, so I sort of back and forth from Australia and travel and. And ended up working in construction, but still with this nagging in the back of my mind that I wanted to do something creative and ended up going back to Africa and thinking, I really love doing this. Why couldn't I give it a shot? And my partner at the time said, oh, why don't you enroll in a camera, like a. A camera club or a course or something? Which I did here in Melbourne at psc, which fantastic school. And so I didn't really know. I didn't know what I was doing. Like, I knew that I wanted to work in that field and I wanted to be a wildlife photographer. And my first year, Tudor said to me, he said, that's very niche. Like, you've got two little kids under the age of two. You need a job that's probably going to take you 20 years to get something decent. But your images, I've noticed, sort of tell a story. Why don't you look into photojournalism? And so I did. And that was it. It was just like full steam ahead. [00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So just. Just rolling back a little bit before we move on with. With the rest of that. That first trip, you said you went to Africa. Was that. Was that a holiday? Was that a. Was that on a cricket? [00:09:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So I just jumped. I. I got the chance to. I was playing cricket in England, got the chance to go to Germany with a family friend and strap a backpack on. I did that for a month and loved it and thought, this is the life for me. This is what I want to do. There's no Responsibility, do whatever the hell you want. And I thought, where do I want to go? I want to go to Africa. So I went, went and did. I worked in London for three months, earned enough money, took myself off to Africa, did that, fell in love with the place and then went back to England and then came home for a year and then went traveling and lived in Canada and did all sorts of stuff. Yeah, through Central America and America and. Yeah, it was pretty wayward for a while. It was, you know, you got no one to answer to you sort of doing things you probably shouldn't and. Yeah. But then ended up back here doing the camera course. So the, the first time I went was purely just for the love of it. Got to go through Serengeti, Masai, Mara, see all the wildlife and, you know, meet the people and, you know. Yeah, like I said, I just fell in love with it. And that was. Yeah, that sort of led me into wanting to always work there. Although initially it was to photograph animals, but now it's. It's taken a very serious turn. But. Yeah, yeah, but I guess come back to your inspiration sort of question. It's because I sort of came from like, nowhere. I didn't really know. I wasn't one to, you know, grab photo books and look at people's work. I sort of. When I was at college, I. I just looked. Used to look at other students work and see what they were doing and see where I was, where I was in the pecking order sort of thing. And, you know, there were some quite, well at the time, good student photographers there. And I'm, oh, that looks pretty cool. How'd you do that sort of thing? And then just sort of bounce around learning like that. And then, yeah, as we went on, you know, and I started in the photojournalism stream at psc, you know, they got me looking at other people's work like James Nuckway and Sebastian Salgado, you know, you know, sort of the legends of photojournalism. And yeah, you see their work and you're like, far out, man. That's just something that, you know, that's what I want to do. But you don't have the skills, you know, and you don't have the access to be able to do that. So I was trying to put myself in positions where I could get that sort of deeper sort of work. Like, I like my. For my final year, Folio, I did. I followed a. A funeral director around for. For about eight months and I. That was for my video and. And a video and stills combined folio. And then my stills folio was. I shot it on a, the kill floor of an abattoir. And like, you know, there was people turning their heads going, what, what's going on? There's something going on with you. You know, it's all pretty dark and. But I sort of knew that that was, you know, you got to get your hands dirty to get work. So that was, and that was why I did that. And it sort of. But it meant that I, I was in positions to get that sort of moody work and serious sort of overtones rather than photographing, you know, my mates at parties, which you know, people were doing. And that's, that's all fine, but my goal was to get work and get a job and I was very, very determined and I knew I had to make that course pay. So I took it very seriously. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Big, big point of difference too. Yeah, it was versus maybe what your colleagues are doing. [00:13:07] Speaker C: Most definitely. You know, some of these, my fellow students were, you know, they were 21, so sort of straight out of school, whereas I was, I don't know, like I was probably, it might be 30 and I had two kids, 31 when I had two kids. I had to, there was a responsibility there that I hadn't had before. So I had to, you know, like I said, I was just very determined. [00:13:29] Speaker A: But you also, I guess, you know, at that age, I mean, I remember when, vaguely remember when I was like in my early 20s, you know, going into art school because I wanted to do something to do with drawing and design. You know, I, I had no idea what I was doing. But then I look back at 30 year old me or, you know, 35 year old me and obviously it's a very different story. You have, especially if you had kids and you know, you've experienced a bit of life, you have a different perspective on, on what it is that you want to capture or what sort of stories you want to tell. Because maybe it's just as a. You lose that innocence about the world the older you get. You know, I, I'm 50 to this year and you know, I can see that I'm becoming a bitter old man yelling at the clouds, you know, standing on my, on my lawn in my bathrobe, yelling at the clouds. So, you know, the older you get, the more kind of wisened you get to, to, you know, what the world actually really is and what it really represents. And I think that's where photojournalism kicks in perhaps. [00:14:31] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good point. You make like. Sorry to cut you off, but that's. [00:14:34] Speaker A: No, no. [00:14:35] Speaker C: Like, When I was 20, I did an accounting degree, you know, like. Yeah, because I wanted to, you know, work for the AFL or Cricket Australia. But like you said that life experience, you know, that. That period of travel teach. That was probably the best learning I ever had, you know, and it's held me in good stead for what I do now. You know, you learn to listen. You learn to listen to people. You're out on the road by yourself, you know, backpacking around, and you need. You don't speak the language, so you need to get to that next town where you got to listen to whoever you're talking to to get there, you know, so you got to pay attention. And that's, you know, a big part of the work that I do now is you sort of. You listen a lot and. And you can. You see different things when you're traveling and you can form opinions about, you know, different cultures or. Or different parts of the world and that sort of thing, again, helps in my job now and. And, yeah, being an older student and coming into it a bit older, I think. Yeah. Probably had that experience that those younger guys didn't. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of naive. Naivety about the world, isn't that when you're at that age, you know, you've only really just left home. You've only, you know, you're still calling on mom and dad for, you know, a loan to pay rent every now and then, you know, like, still, you still are fledgling, regardless of what you're doing. [00:15:50] Speaker C: Actually, for that first trip to Uganda. Sorry, I think I still owe my dad some money for that first trip. [00:15:56] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah, see? Yeah. I was shocked to discover that my mum has a little notebook by the phone. And every time one of us kids calls to us for money, she. She notes it down. She's got a little. She's got a journal I discovered the other day. Yeah, that was quite disturbing. I don't want to know how much I owe. So you said earlier that, you know, you grew up in a. In a regional area in Macedon. And for those of us that. For those of you watching along who aren't Victorian or Australian, Macedon is. [00:16:25] Speaker C: I grew up in Riddles Creek, which is even smaller than Macedon. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Oh, it is very small. Yeah. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Ye. [00:16:30] Speaker A: I used to go camping up that way. But. Yeah, Macedon's in regional Victoria. What would it be like? North, slightly northwest of Melbourne? [00:16:37] Speaker C: Northwest, yeah. Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: A couple of hours out of Melbourne or it's, it's faster now than what it used to be. [00:16:43] Speaker C: It's part of the range. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah, part of the ranges. So it's, it's a gorgeous area. Well worth a visit if you're looking for somewhere to go with a camera. Um, let me just jump on a couple of. So sorry, say that again. [00:16:56] Speaker C: Salon is a sponsor. Oh, give him a plug. Get up there. See the trees. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah. A couple of comments. Sorry, I've got notifications popping at me from everywhere. 100 Greg yelling at the clouds. Yeah, I think Shane seen me do that before. Online. Finding wonder by travel when you were young is so important and not a lot of people get that opportunity and I feel that even less well with the current state of the world. It's a really good point Bruce. You know I, I think about. I didn't travel overseas until I was, it was about 202009 and I only went overseas with my wife and two kids were about, I don't know, 10, 12 and I didn't. So I didn't travel for the first sort of, you know, 30 or so years of my life, at least 35 years. But then once I did travel, New Zealand wasn't really travel, it was just like going to somewhere in Victoria for me. But it was until I went to Japan in 2015 that it really opened my eyes up to the world. But, but yeah, I, I agree Bruce. I think travel is really important kind of learning opportunity in life, you know and we often talk about here about, you know, would you buy the new, whatever it is, five, six, ten, twelve thousand dollar camera. And we often say look, don't buy that camera, buy something cheaper and spend the rest of the money traveling. Take that camera with you and actually achieve something with it rather than just sitting on your shelf like a pretty expensive paperweight. Yeah. And I think travel and photography, I mean they've always been, you know, done hand in hand by, by most people. But I think it's a really, I think it teaches you a lot about your craft too, traveling with a camera. Yeah, because often you're out and about, you don't have the luxury of running home to pick up that lens or that spare battery. You, you know, you make work what you've got with you. You, you know, you develop a sense for how the world works, all those sorts of things. [00:18:54] Speaker C: So it teaches you about interaction as well, you know, like you, yeah, you sort of, if you want to make a picture of, of someone in a place where you don't speak the language, you have to sort of approach. I mean, I hope people do approach them and ask if it's okay or have a chat to them to see what they're doing and is it okay to make a picture while I'm here with my camera? Know that that's, that's a huge skill that. Yeah. Probably a lot of younger generation don't sort of have, I guess like that you need to. There's a little bit of courage to be able to do it, but also people skills, you know. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:28] Speaker C: I'm quite an introverted person. So you sort of. I do have to work myself up to do it. But yeah, once you do do it, you break through that wall a little bit. And I think that's an important skill as a photojournalist as well. Yeah. Is one of those things that can help you do that. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Oh, go Jim. Sorry. Oh, sorry, Chris. [00:19:47] Speaker B: I was. Do you find like when you do have a camera that it is much easier to say, approach someone, say that you maybe wouldn't necessarily talk to if you didn't have the camera? [00:20:02] Speaker C: It depends on the situation. I think he. Here in Australia, probably not like. I think there's a difference between like people here are quite wary, particularly in a capacity with the media. Yeah. Sometimes it sort of has to be like if you're out in public, sometimes we have to go and do, you know, like a weather picture or something for the age, you know, because it's a bright beautiful day or whatever and that you always, you start walking across to talk to someone who's with their kids playing in the park or whatever, having a picnic and you can see that look on their face as soon as you start walking over and because you've got the camera hanging off you and you're always in your mind like, okay, so I've got to. Now I've got to talk around this and what we want to do or whatever and I'm likely to get knocked back and then I got to go and find someone else and whatever. But overseas generally there for a purpose. So the people that I'm. I don't really do much sort of street stuff overseas where it's just sort of off the cuff in situ photography. The work that I'm doing is quite. There's a focus to it. So the subjects that I'm photographing are generally, you know, there's been research around them and we've found them and so they know that I'm coming sort of thing. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what advice would you give to say someone that's you know, new in photography, they've gotten their basic skills. You know, they haven't traveled yet. What advice would you give to someone new to photography that wanted to get into, say, photojournalism, but, you know, felt quite shy and intimidated by approaching people? What. Yeah. What tips could you give, given your experience? [00:21:52] Speaker C: I'd say try and work into it. So maybe find a project that you're passionate about and that's reasonably close to home and, and work on your skills that way with people that, you know, I mean, that. That will sort of tend to grow and it'll. It'll evolve into something bigger and people that you don't know, but they might be friends of a friend or something. It's easier to sort of take baby steps, I guess, rather than just jumping in. I mean, you're not going to go if you're new to photojournalism, you're not going to fly to Afghanistan and start photographing, you know, the rise of the Taliban over there. [00:22:32] Speaker A: Like, wasn't that your first assignment, Jim? [00:22:35] Speaker B: No, I didn't quite get that far. [00:22:38] Speaker C: You know, and I did the same. You take baby steps. You just do smaller projects that you, you know, you can manage and that, you know, you can work within your. Within your world, and then they'll start to grow. You know, like the, the larger project I've been doing in Uganda for 10 years, that grew because I did a. I did a job for the local, for a government. And then the lady that I was filing the pictures to, she said, there's this. You should go and see this choir who. They come over from Uganda. They're these kids who. They used to be child soldiers. So I sort of went to that show, watched the show, spoke to them, said, oh, would you mind if I tagged along? And it wasn't for anyone. It was just for me. And then through that, it evolved into I, you know, they said, oh, you should ring this guy who lives in Queensland, and he, he helps with the church that run this. So I rang him and then spoke to him for a little bit, and then he told me, oh, you should go. If you do go to Uganda, meet up with this guy, he works in mental health in a refugee camp over there. And so it's all these little steps. And that took, you know, a year or so to organize that. And then from there that work got published. And then an organization in America said, oh, we love that work. Could you come and do something similar for us? And then it took years to sort of get the grant to get over There and then it's sort of. So it's like a, you know, it's a large project that takes a long, long time, but it grew from something very small. Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, any, anything can. So, yeah, if you're trying to get in, I'd say just work on your own projects. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Jim, how does Chris's early story compare to your own? Because you were a photojournalist when you first started out. Did you go into photojournalism as a course straight from high school? What. Tell us a little bit, just quickly about that. [00:24:33] Speaker B: So I went to uni in Bendigo. Chris, just a question. Did you work at the Bendigo Advertiser? [00:24:38] Speaker C: No, no, I never did. They were Fairfax, weren't they? [00:24:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yep. [00:24:43] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I started at Fairfax, but in the city, in. Okay, what were they called then? No, I started at the Melbourne. Melbourne Weekly. Yeah, yeah. Which. And they were like the suburban local papers. Yeah, yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker B: So, yeah, I, I started at the. Like the local paper here. Yeah, almost for five years. And so, yeah, I was in uni when I started. So I sort of did full time uni, full time work in my last. [00:25:18] Speaker C: Darren Howe there for a while. And. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah, so Darren came in just when I. When sort of things changed at the paper. So most of the photographers left. Darren came in. [00:25:29] Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah. My very first editor at Melbourne Weekly, he went. Left the Melbourne Weekly to go and work for the Addie. Yeah, but I forget his name. He's a lovely guy. But yeah. Anyway, I have been in that office, though. We had to, I had to photograph a. Remember Reclaim Australia, that right wing sort of, you know, group that were. Yeah, they would do this big protest up in Bendigo and I had to go to the Addy office for a. A security meeting because. Yeah, they worried about security, which was interesting. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:01] Speaker C: Okay. [00:26:03] Speaker A: That's a topic I want to get into a little bit later around security and especially when you are traveling to, you know, some countries, often war torn countries, or whether you're doing even protests. You know, you photographed a lot of the protests here in Melbourne. What I. I read something on your. Was it on your bio? I think I read something about that. You've received specific training for certain things when you are doing photojournalism and you are going into either conflict areas or areas where you know there's going to be things like protests. What sort of. What do you have to do to prep for that sort of thing in both at an education point, but also just personally. [00:26:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I just put as I. Yeah, I've. I'm not a war photographer and I'm not. Definitely not a conflict photographer. I've never been. Never been to a war zone. [00:26:55] Speaker A: But you are traveling to country, like third world countries and. [00:26:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, there's safety issues, obviously. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:03] Speaker C: Place a lot of. I mean, for that type of work, you place a lot of trust and importance in the fixer that you. You hire. You know, you go there because you're not going to speak the language you need. You don't just get on a bus and arrive at, you know, a place where there's disabled children, you know, tied up in a hut. There's a lot of research goes into it and you work a lot with teams on the ground over there. And so you are putting a lot of trust in their skill and, and that just. I suppose that builds over time. And I've worked with the same people in Uganda for the last five years and used the same people. Yeah, I mean, I've traveled around where it's gotten hairy and you know, you're pulling into towns at. At nighttime and stuff, and it's not. Not ideal, but I mean. And I come back to that travel experience as well. Like, when you're traveling, you're sort of knowing not to turn up after dark in certain places. You know, bus depots are general and translations are generally not favorable places to be after night. So just certain things like that, like jumping on the back of someone's motorbike who you don't know is. Is a. No, no, you just, you just. There's certain things that you. You sort of know and it's a lot of. It's instinctual as well, you know, like your b. It's starting to get dark and. And the bus is pulling in. You know, your heart starts to go, so, you know, something's not quite right. So. Yeah, it's about trying to mitigate that and, and put, you know, plans in place so that. That type of thing doesn't happen. Yep. Yeah. In. In regards to protests and things, you sort of get. I know I've been doing that for a while now, and you get a feel for it and, you know, you generally know when things are going to peak. It sort of goes in like a roll, a bit like a roller coaster, like peaks and troughs and you sort of, you know when the intensity is starting to build and then. Well, I do. I sort of know where to be because I'll know what type of picture that I'm trying to make to cover that for the paper. [00:29:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:18] Speaker C: So it's just sort of practice, I guess. I remember the first one I did, the very. The second one I did, actually. And Nathan, who you had on the show a few weeks ago, he was at this one as well, and it was the first one and I was like, this is like a big adventure, you know, this is unreal. But when I think back about it, I was just putting myself into the wrong places and I was very lucky not to get injured. And like, I had this one frame of the police horse just coming straight at me and I had a wide lens and there's all the. All the protesters falling underneath it and everything. It was a fantastic picture. But like, geez, that wasn't that smart, you know. Yeah. I would have been knocked out. My gear would have been gone. And, you know, so I've not done that before. And you sort of. You learn from those experiences, I guess. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. You're trying to be just far enough away that it's. You're not in the firing line. [00:30:10] Speaker C: Yeah. I also made a conscious decision to change. This is a bit nerdy, but it's like. To change gear. I mean, you used to. As a press photographer, you're sort of always carrying around a 70 to 200 lens on one side and a 16 to 35 on the other side. And, you know that old Robert Capper thing, if your pictures aren't good enough, you're not close enough. So you're always in there wide, getting real close, but you've got a 1635 and it's, you know, you're sort of zooming and it's. You're trying to get the width in and everything. So you're getting really, really close. And I mean, those sorts of pictures are great if you nail them, but they can tend to be really messy as well. So I started using just a fixed 35 mil lens and I made a conscious decision just to use that all the time. And that helps because it means you stand back a bit and you can. You can sort of view the scene a bit from a bit further back and compose the image rather than just shooting away at whatever, hoping that you get the frame. Yeah, yeah. You'll find a lot of those project pictures are sort of. There's just pepper spray everywhere and there's a head over there and one over there and there's not. It's not really a picture. It doesn't really tell a story other than, you know, it's probably good for pepper spray sales. But, you know, if you. With a 35, you are composing the image. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:30] Speaker C: You know, so you think more about the work that you're making. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Jim, what was your go to press kit in terms of lenses? [00:31:38] Speaker B: It was pretty much what Chris has said. It was a 7200, a 2470 and a like 16 to 35 or 17 to 35. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:46] Speaker B: And that was pretty much what we ran. No, we never had primes or anything like that. It was. [00:31:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It's a bit of a point of difference and I like it. Like I've sort of. I'm. I guess I'm the only one that runs around Melbourne with just a prime 35. And it gives my work a little bit of a different look, you know, and that's what you're always looking for, is your work to be, you know, to stand out. Your own style. They used to say in uni, try and come up with your own style, which I found is like you're a uni student and you're just starting out. What is your style? Because you're trying to get work, you know, you're trying to get work and that client might want a certain thing, so you have to shoot that thing. So that's. That's theirs. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:30] Speaker C: With your own is. You know, it's very hard as a, as a young photographer to do that. And that is just something that takes time, I think. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Very cool. I just want to jump to a couple of comments just so we don't fall behind too much. Just a little follow up from Bruce earlier when we're talking about travel and the lessons that travel can teach you. And Bruce has said empathy can be amplified with travel. And I agree. Yep, 100 on that. Dennis sends lots of loves and then texted something obscure whilst driving. Dennis, that's a no. No. Well, I want driving. So many questions. I think generally Dennis throws a lot of questions at our guests. He's. He's an avid learner. We'll just leave it at that. Love you, Dennis. Bruce. Another one from Bruce. The idea of a fixer and trusting someone you potentially don't know in a foreign country, it is absolutely wild. How do you know that that person has your best interest in hand the first time you work with them? That's a great question, Bruce. [00:33:32] Speaker C: That is a good question. I mean, because I've worked with the same ones for so long. The first time that I met them, they were part of an organization that was helping me find access. So I knew that and they were going to benefit as well from the publicity that the story was going to you know, generate so, you know, that they're not going to do anything, you know, untoward, I guess, in terms of if you're traveling to, you know, a conflict zone or something, then you'd want to be, you know, dotting your eyes and crossing these and. And probably asking other photojournalists who they use. Yeah, other photojournalists and colleagues that you trust. It is. It is a small industry. There's not lots of people doing the same thing. There's actually a Facebook page called the Vulture Club where you can put in. If you're going to Algeria, you write in any. Any recommendations for fixers in Algeria. And generally coming back, you know, is trustworthy. But I'd still be doing a hell of a lot of research. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good. It's a good question. And the point that. That Bruce made about empathy as well. That's very true. Very true. I mean, yeah, my work and the results I get are based on empathy. Trying to draw empathy out of people. So for me to want that from other people, I have to give it to the subject to get those photographs. And travel very much. One of those things, you see people. We live in a very fortunate part of the world. And, yeah, when you travel, you see people who. Who aren't quite as fortunate, and you have to have empathy for their situation, you know, and, you know, taking a photo is taking something from them, you know, so, yeah, you want to try and give something back, but having that ability to empathize with their situation. Yeah, he's probably born from travel. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that's great to hear. Let's jump onto another question. This is from David in San Fran. So, as a working journalist, do you use whatever equipment you want or are you assigned gear? [00:35:39] Speaker C: No, I use what I want. That's what I was saying before is. Yeah, I. I tend to use just a 35 mil prime, and then for portraiture, a 50 mil prime. Yeah. But I'm given the leeway to use whatever I want. You know, sometimes I like light subjects, sometimes I won't. When I'm on assignment, it's more about. It's probably not the equipment, it's more about the style that the. The outlet is sort of known for and required. That's more the limitation that's put on you, I guess, if for want of a, you know, like work for the Guardian, my picture editors there generally, you know, Carly will just let me do what I want and what I see best for that story. And often it's not lit, you Know, I'll just be using ambient light or natural light. Whereas for the age is probably, you know, it's a little bit more glossy in a way. So things are sort of expected to be, you know, lit and lit well. [00:36:42] Speaker B: But in terms of off camera flash and everything. [00:36:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you can't be shooting a front cover for the Spectrum section, which is their arts and entertainment section. You know, just with ambient light, you know, you have to be setting up off camera flash and making it look nice and, you know, doing it justice because that's what's expected, you know, like, my first. I start at 12 today and my first job's a food shoot. So I won't be sticking the food next to a window, you know, I'll be lighting it properly, like a proper, you know, so. But in terms of the gear, yeah, we're allowed to use what we want and we're given that sort of. I guess that's on you as a photographer, you should know what lenses and cameras best suit. That type of job. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, I did a job yesterday where had to be a little bit covert, so I didn't take in the big, you know, 72 and a 35 on this side. I just had a little Nikon ZF with one lens and had that in a backpack and went in and did the job. So that's, that's on me. If I'd have turned up with the kit, then I probably wouldn't have got into where I had to do the photograph. So that's the photographer's job rather than the outlet's job. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think when we spoke to Emily Black a couple of months ago now, and she talked about her early days as a photojournalist, I think with the Leader, she worked with Leader newspapers throughout parts of Melbourne. I think she was assigned gear. All right. I think, like, to begin with, like, there was. This is. I think it was all Nikon. This is what we shoot, this is what we use. Here's the camera, here's the lenses, kind of off you go. So David's just followed up with a. With a clarity question, I guess. I mean, is the gear yours or is it gear that you. That the outlet provides? [00:38:34] Speaker C: Oh, as a freelancer, it's my gear. [00:38:37] Speaker A: Your gear? Okay. [00:38:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Sport, I use. I use when I use. Yeah. Early on, for the age, when I was doing Sport, I borrow their long lenses now. Nikon gives them to me. But, yeah, early days, I would get them from the age. Yeah. If I didn't have that gear that was needed. So. Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, sometimes, yeah. [00:39:02] Speaker A: What about you Jim, what was your experience like with that? Did they provide the gear for you? [00:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we just had like three or four kits and you kind of fought the longer you'd been there you could claim kind of a better kit. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Yep. [00:39:13] Speaker B: As, as you were I guess moving up and yeah, we had a couple of long lenses and then most people's gear was the same but you know, maybe a different, a newer body or something like that. [00:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah. But did you ever kind of introduce your own gear into that mix? [00:39:28] Speaker B: Sometimes I did, yeah. Sometimes I'd have a different lens or something but also didn't want to break stuff. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Your own stuff. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When? [00:39:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the, that's the thing, isn't it? Like as a, as a freelancer you're covered by there. I'm a full time casual with the nine stable so the Age and Sydney Morning Herald. So I'm covered under their insurance. But what, what good's that to me if the next day I've got to go and do a freelance corporate job? [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:04] Speaker B: I don't think when you're getting paid like $20 an hour it's worth bringing in. You're really expensive gear for a shoe. [00:40:11] Speaker C: Yeah. David makes a good point there too. I can see that. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Using kit that doesn't get in the way or make you a target is important. [00:40:18] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean you just talked about conflict zones and so he would know more about that than I. But I, I tend to, when I'm doing projects like the one in Uganda and the one in public housing here, you sort of, you have to be discreet and because some of the situations you're in, it would put the subject off if I'm walking in with cameras all hanging off me. So I tend to just take one camera with one lens in and you know, I throw it around the back first. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:50] Speaker C: So they can't see it and they're not put off by the camera. Yeah, that's important as well. And these are all things that you sort of learn along the way. But yeah, that's a good point by David's that yeah, you don't want to be a target as well. I got those protests. You're a target because we've got your lanyard and you have to, you have to show that your media. Yeah, those things particularly I was going. [00:41:12] Speaker A: To ask you earlier when you're talking about, you know, you might have to go and you're Talking about having to go out and shoot, you know, a picture maybe of kids playing in a park because it's a nice day and you've got. You've got an assignment. How do you approach people for newsworthy stories? Like how. How do you identify yourself? How. What. You know what. I guess for people that want to understand a bit more about how you approach potential subjects, how do you do it? [00:41:41] Speaker C: I just be nice. Approach them with a smile. Like, we're all humans and I'm still a human, you know, behind the camera. You still, still. You still have to be polite and use your manners. And if they tell you that they don't want to, well, you respect that decision. Yeah. And walk off. It's. It's different. Like a lot of jobs you're assigned. So the. The subject knows you're coming, knows you're in the way. Yeah, yeah. Which is fine. It's more. Yeah. Those type of things where you. You're doing something a bit more in situ and off the cuff. Yeah. I mean, protests and stuff are different. Rallies and things because everyone's in a public space. So it's. You're allowed to photograph whatever you want. But even in saying that if it's, if it's something, something that's a little bit. The topic's a bit. What's the words for it, like sentiment, like close to your heart, like sentimental or whatever, you would have to. You. I try to be a little bit more careful rather than just walking up to. Like that you'll look and try and make eye contact. Make sure that they recognize that you're a photographer. You know, I always have my press lanyard on so that they. They are aware without me saying anything. And then, you know, maybe raise the camera and give them a nod or something like that. And if they, if they don't want to, they will tell you and they'll shake their head or do that or that or whatever. There's just little ways and means in it. But it's common sense, really. You know, it's just being not. [00:43:14] Speaker A: Not everyone's born with that. [00:43:17] Speaker C: The leader of the free world, wasn't it? [00:43:20] Speaker A: Clearly not. You mentioned earlier about, you know. And Jim, you said it about, you know, you fight. There's. There's a group of you and you fight over the kit and, and, and, and that's a few years ago now. What is the. Is. Is photojournalism still a competitive industry for people to get into? [00:43:39] Speaker C: Is that for you or Jim or me? [00:43:40] Speaker A: For you, Chris. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:43:42] Speaker C: I'd say it is. Yeah, it's very, very competitive. There's. [00:43:47] Speaker B: The pool's smaller, like. Yeah, the amount of jobs available is, is smaller. [00:43:53] Speaker C: Yeah, the amount of full time jobs is. I mean The Age have five full time photographers, the Herald sun have five. Getty in Melbourne have two, AAP have two. So what's that? That's 14 full time jobs. They have one. So that's 15 full time photojournalists and, and you know, a lot of them, that's a lot of, that's press work as well. Like it's not pure photojournalism. There's hardly any. Yeah, it's, it's ultra competitive. [00:44:26] Speaker A: So I mean between press work and photojournalism in your mind? [00:44:30] Speaker C: In my mind, I, I think there's a clear, there's a clear line. Like press work is working for an outlet doing their day to day work. Whereas photojournalism for me, I feel encompasses press work, documentary work and you know, the projects that I'm sort of doing. So yeah, I feel that photojournalism is like an umbrella term for a few different. And they are labels. Like everything crosses over, you know, like I do press work and documentary work but I call myself a journalist, you know, because. Yeah, yeah, it's, I think. But yeah, I think there is a definite difference. Like being a press photographer working for AAP in Melbourne is a different set of skills to what I, I have. You know, like I probably, if I worked for aip, I probably wouldn't be able to file as quickly. They have different, like they have to be able to shoot sport and news very well. You know, they stand outside sometimes for seven hours a day and they have to nail that shot, you know, like I've done that but day to day it's not what I want to do. So yeah, so that's, I think there is a different definite difference. [00:45:44] Speaker A: And is that where you cut your teeth as a photojournalist doing the press stuff? Just standing outside the courtroom doing the crappy assignments? [00:45:53] Speaker C: I wouldn't say I cut my teeth doing that. I cut my teeth doing local newspaper stuff like, much like Jim, I sort of started out at the Melbourne Weekly where it was all local suburban papers and you know, you had some stuff that was, you just felt that just wasn't important, you know, like cracking the concrete out the front of someone's house. You know, you try, but you're trying. It teaches you to be creative. You know, you've got to make that picture look good and get towards the front of the Paper. So you sort of, you know, you're doing all you can, busting out all stops to get a decent picture out of something. That's pretty bland. But I was always doing stuff off in the background, you know, like, I went to Vietnam to photograph second generation of kids that had been affected by Asian orange. In 2012, when I was doing all of that local press stuff, I was always working on something in the background that was a bit more. Had a bit more meat on its bones and. And sort of helped me show editors that. That I could do that work. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:00] Speaker B: I think a lot of the, like, local stuff is very rarely are you shooting real news, is what I would, you know, like there was a lot of, as you say, like the press work was majority of the work. And occasionally there'd be something that was like real news. Kind of photojournalist, you know, on the run, doing something. [00:47:22] Speaker C: You jump on it as soon as it comes. [00:47:24] Speaker B: It's like, yeah, yeah, 100. [00:47:26] Speaker C: I'm good here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Just speaking of Vietnam, I just want to jump to a couple of comments David's following up on. David loves gear. I think we've lost count of how many cameras David has. Mostly film. I think all film and I think all Nikon, remember? Does that sound right to you, Jim? [00:47:44] Speaker B: What was that? Sorry, sorry. [00:47:46] Speaker A: David in San Francisco. I think he's a Nikon shooter and I think he only shoots film. [00:47:51] Speaker C: At least David could sleep well, you know, you have a clear conscience that he didn't steal likers. [00:47:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So he said, I had a friend who was an army photographer in Vietnam and was assigned likers. And at the end of his tours, you're supposed to turn them in. He did, but many didn't. He regrets not keeping them. Yeah, he follows up. Yeah, he's obviously got a good conscience. Plus, as an army photographer, you don't get photo credit. Not back then, anyway. And yes, David is a nick on shooter. [00:48:25] Speaker C: That's. Yeah, that's true. I had to. During the bushfires, I had to. What were you doing? Had to try and get through a roadblock or something. And. And the. The army were blocking it up, so we end up back at their base. And they said, we can give you our photos. And I said, oh, the age won't, you know, blah, blah. And they said, oh, we can give them to you, but, yeah, we won't credit the photographer. So that's. That's very true. [00:48:50] Speaker A: It's interesting. What do you think that is? [00:48:54] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:48:55] Speaker A: I don't Know, security, State secret. Yeah, maybe a security thing. Maybe it's just blanket rule so no one slips up. You mentioned. Well, talking about competitiveness, is there still, you know, we live in an age of. Of everyone's a photojournalist that. Well, I think they are because they have a smartphone. As soon as there's anything dramatic going on, a crowd of people whip out their phones and start recording and taking photos. Given that the world that we live in now with that and such an abundance of access to media, thanks to the Internet and social media and people sharing things, is. Is photojournalism still a relevant topic? Like, is it still a. An essential part of the process? Or are we. Are we sliding into a world where media outlets just rely on stuff that people send them? [00:49:49] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's definitely relevant, but I think it's becoming. I think the general population are getting used to seeing the iPhone pictures and the supplied stuff, which is done by untrained photographers. We're trained to tell a story with an image. You're taught to fill the frame with important information, and if that gets cropped out, then the image doesn't sort of work. And I feel that that visual literacy is getting lost in this day and age. And it's probably due to that prolife of images. There's just too many photographs. And people see them, they see Instagram, they click through and, you know, they put. They see an Image that's got 700,000 likes on it, but it's a picture of a rainbow. And then, you know, there's an image that's going to change history and it's got 25 likes. You know, they don't sort of understand what's good or not or what. What a good image is. And that's because visual literacy doesn't get taught anywhere. It doesn't get. A journalist doesn't learn it, you know, so we're trained to make good pictures and represent that story properly, visually, but because there's just so much out there, they tend to get lost a bit. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Yeah, and I was going to ask you about that because, you know, we, little, as much as I hate the term, we live in a world of fake news. Often there'll be some events or a disaster or a protest, and people will harvest footage from years ago, sometimes decades, and claim that as current, current events. You know, we've seen that about storms and how bad something is and. And then later on it's discovered that the footage that was. Was circulating and got that 700,000 likes was actually from a storm five years ago. You know, like, you see that a lot. How, how tough is it, do you think, for photojournalism to. We've talked a little bit about how it stands out in such a noisy space, but also for authenticity. What, you know, what are, what are your thoughts on photo authenticity in a world of fake news, AI, photo generation, those sorts of things. [00:52:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess it comes back to the outlet as well. That's putting it out there like that type of instance where something is not. Is done from. It's passed off as the wrong. So you would say a storm, you know, and they're using something from. That's just sort of laziness and ineptness by that outlet. And I'd like. I mean, there are outlets out there that do that. You know, there's a couple here in Australia, you know, that aren't quite as trustworthy as they should be. And that's probably where this trust in journalism's falling down because, you know, there's that one bad egg that ruins it for everyone. It's that sort of information and then everyone gets tarred with the same brush. But also they sort of, you know, they're struggling for relevance a bit in that hardly anyone picks up a newspaper anymore. People are getting their, their news from their curated feed on Facebook or wherever they are. And that, that means that the media outlets are struggling for income and they're struggling to find relevance. So their relevance and income comes out of clicks, which means, you know, no one's going to sort of click on my sort of work if, you know, they're not going to read that on the train on the way home. It's, it's more in depth work. Whereas, you know, a cat that, you know, I don't know, ate a hot dog whilst, you know, surrounded by butterflies. That's the sort of thing that people click on, you know, so they're getting that towards the top of the news stream when it's not really new. And that's what I mean, that's, that's because they're struggling for revenue and relevance. And that's just the media world at this point. And they've, they don't. Their business model sort of doesn't. Isn't made to make money and that's, you know, classifieds died. Yeah. [00:53:53] Speaker A: I was talking to someone the other day about, you know, like the Trading Post and yeah, I remember picking up copies in the, you know, the news agents when you were looking at buying a new BMX or Something like, you know, secondhand BMX or something as a, as a teenager like we'd, yeah, we'd go and pick up a physical trading post and, and actually I still laugh today watching that Australian film the Castle where there's a running joke throughout it about how much is he asking? Nah, he's dreaming, you know, about doing a trade in the trading post. For any of our overseas viewers and listeners, if you haven't watched the Castle, it's an Australian film, highly recommend. It is not how Australia. Well and there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I guess there's a lot of truths in it but it's just a beautiful movie, beautiful piece of Australian filmmaking. Let's just jump to a couple of, of comments. We've got David J. Parker. Not sure what the new generation is drawing their inspiration from these days and I think that's an interesting point because you know I've got five kids who all live at home. Half of them, more than half of them are adults and you know, they don't go out and do stuff like we used to. Yeah or like I used to. And I was, I was a pretty quiet kid. Like you said yourself Chris, I had my wild years. But you know they're not, they're not sort of enjoying the same experiences and I do wonder where that creativity spurs from. And I guess it's, it's different, it's a new world. It's all online and all that sort of stuff. But it's interesting point Bruce, for outlets who just want stories and cheap and fast work, close enough is good enough. Even if its quality is totally crap. Eyeballs are the only things that count. [00:55:34] Speaker C: He's pretty much hit the nail on the head you know, in terms of yeah media these days. It's, it's very true. Eyeballs down now. It's just a shame that those eyeballs don't recognize good, you know, photojournalism because trained and they're sort of now trained to see rapid fire stuff on, on social media and whatever catches their eye is deemed as good rather than tells a story. [00:56:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well he goes on to say the local press photographers where I am aboard because I've been told to shoot things that are popular but are interesting purely for clicks. Community stories are lost now. [00:56:16] Speaker C: Yeah we, that's where I find the relevance will be is because people still want to know what's happening in their community and they'll want to. You can't replicate the local fella who makes pasties for the footy Club, you know, that can't be reproduced by AI or anything like that. You need a photojournalist or a photographer who knows their. To go and photograph it and photograph it well. And that's. I did. Yeah. Talk about I last year. And that's what I come back to is like the work that I'm doing or like David De park has done in the past, that work can't be replicated by AI because it's so specific and those stories still need to be told and people will want to read them and. And hear about them. But you can't type into AI a story about a specific person, you know. Yeah, you photographed just. It can be, can't be. It's not true. It can't work. That's where I find photojournalism will always have relevance. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back to the. Sorry, the clicks. Like our biggest galleries when I was working at the Addie one month we got like, I don't know, six and a half million clicks or something like that through the website, which was huge for like a regional town. And I think we'd had like the Bendigo cup. There'd been a. A big event on or big news event. And so like the gallery clicks is what we were celebrating, you know, and most of that was like a people in places gallery. [00:57:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:48] Speaker B: You know, we'd go out to shoot the video cup, but we'd also. So we have to shoot the racing, obviously, anything that kind of happened. But also everyone had to come back with a minimum number of people in places. You know, it might be 20 or 30. Just groups of people like no involved. [00:58:06] Speaker A: In, like, just people that are standing around watching crowds like, hey, Greg and. [00:58:10] Speaker B: Chris, can I take a photo of you too? You know, at the races? And you. [00:58:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:58:14] Speaker B: You're just standing there like. [00:58:16] Speaker C: Yeah, just a pure. Just a photo. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Just a photo like, so that then that would go in the gallery so that you would then be like, oh, got to go on the Bendigo Advertiser website to have a look. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Yeah. That's purely two people to see their photo online. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:32] Speaker B: And you know, and we were selling ads in the photo gallery as an ad. So, like you'd click through 10 photos, the 11th would be an ad, then you. And like we're manually loading these in. Like it was early days of trying to work out how to monetize all this. And I think they've gone away from it a little bit now, but it's still. Yeah, I think a big. [00:58:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I think they have Gone away from a little bit like the age. Don't they have their pictures of the week? But they've only just started putting them up on the, like the front page of the, of the online paper and that's, you know, you're talking what, 10, 15 years ago. [00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:11] Speaker C: Like the age used to have their pictures of the week up there. Then they took it down for some reason and now they're just putting it back up when it's just pure, pure clickbait. It's easy, easy money. Yeah. You can add in there and boom, it's done. [00:59:22] Speaker B: And then you can sell, sell that to. Yeah. You know the advertisers can sell it to the, like their clients. Yeah, that we get X amount of clicks. This is good for your business. Pay us more money. [00:59:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Which I thought was the, the business model but they sort of like you said, they've gone away from it a little bit. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Well I don't think people would. It wasn't making anyone else money and, and people weren't buying it versus say like an ad in a paper that full page ads is X amount of money. [00:59:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Which is Harvey Norman at the moment of filling up the ages one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tricky. Like I don't, I don't profess to be know how to fix it but no, it's a bit drab. I think it's becoming, it's probably going to become a bit more niche, you know, like a bit like the New York Times. Like the New York Times is huge obviously but it's, it's still sort of a niche brand if you know what I mean. Like it's not, it doesn't have a, I don't know the Guardian are doing it. Well I think in Australia they've sort of cottoned onto some way that's working for them but they, you know, they don't have quite the, the team that a Channel nine does, you know I think that, I think you find that what Channel nine have done will happen a bit more where there'll be like these media corporations that have print television streaming online as a whole media sort of package and they cross pollinate with one another and that's, that's what nine's doing now with you know, the age. Stan. Sydney Morning Herald. I think that's probably the way things are going to go. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Well I think that they own the regional newspapers but I think that they unsold them. [01:01:10] Speaker C: I think they, yeah, they sold them, they sell them to acm, isn't it acn, yeah. Which is. Yeah, that started Domain, who. He sold it back to Channel nine. It's all very incestuous, but, yeah, not in a great spot, I don't think. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And it does make me wonder. We've often talked about the impact of, you know, AI on photography here on the show. And I've also done Camera Club talks about AI and ethics in photography. And it's kind of making me realize more and more the importance of traditional, genuine photographic applications like photojournalism. Because amongst all the noise, we need something to be validated. Yeah. We need something to be in some way certified or proven to be true and correct. Because we live in a world where there's so much confusion about news and media. You know, we hear stories, especially coming out of America at the moment, count the stories and about what's going on there, and it's really hard to know. I mean, it's fairly obvious that there's problems. It's really hard to know what's real and what's. What's relevant and. Because so much noise coming out of it and so many different ways of people reporting on it and, and I think that's where photography will once again shine through as the, as the, you know, it's the one true medium because it is authentic. There is authenticity in it. [01:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. The, the authenticities. It's when that authenticity gets. What's the word for abused? I think. [01:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:59] Speaker C: You can, you can go into like an AI thing and get pictures of the Ukraine war and they're created. They just, I don't know, they look, to an untrained eye, they look real. But if you, if, you know, I come back to visual literacy, if you know what an image should look like, you know that it's fake, you know, like, know that that bit shouldn't be blurred because that bit there's sharp. Yeah. [01:03:25] Speaker B: The depth of field isn't correct and. [01:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:03:28] Speaker C: But again, what do you do? Like, do we start teaching visual literacy to kids at school so that then they can trust news outlets? Like that's never going to happen. [01:03:40] Speaker A: No. [01:03:40] Speaker C: So it's all. I think it's on. It's partly on the audience to, to be a bit better, but it's also on. On the outlets to make sure they're, you know, not chasing the dollar too much and they're doing right. Like journalism is a. A public service. It started out like that. That's what it's always been. Now it's turning into a business. So it's not about. It's about shareholders and profits rather than it's about providing information to people who don't otherwise get that information, which is the basic premise of what, what media is supposed to do. Yeah, I mean once you've introduced money then those type of things go out the window, don't they? [01:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Not going to report on every story. [01:04:27] Speaker A: Political influence, all that stuff comes into play. You know, we've, I write a lot of blogs for, not just for lucky straps but for other companies too, photography related blogs. And it's becoming harder and harder for genuine content to be picked up by Google. For example, you know, I'll do an honest review of a new camera. But if you type into Google, you know, let's look for the X, the XT5 review, it'll bring up a summary review that Google's AI summary AI thing that Google and I think that's a, that's another slippery slope where like visual literacy actually, you know, validating, authenticating, exploring, investigating, traditional literacy is also sliding away because instead of Google presenting, here's the best articles, genuinely written, 100% unique articles about the XT5, here's a summary about it that we've pulled from other articles, some of which may have been written by AI. You know, and so we're slowly degrading the knowledge chain that Google is giving us. You know, we no longer can, can just go, well we shouldn't but we will as a society because it will just become easier and faster just to look at the summary and go, oh okay, that's what it says. [01:05:55] Speaker C: Yeah, like rather than actually and, and it's like most things, it's about education, isn't it? So we're educating, critical thinking coming through that that's probably, that's not the right thing. You know, like we all knew when Wikipedia started that you could go on and change things probably made it a less than reliable source. Well now those Google summaries, someone's got to start teaching the kids at school that those Google summaries are AI. And why that's not quite right. And maybe don't trust it. [01:06:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's not going to happen. Just like with people being trained about visual literacy. It's not going to happen. It's not, it's not, no. [01:06:35] Speaker C: Well, my youngest daughter's doing a media class at school and I would hope that the, the teacher does say that type of thing, you know, and that's where it can start. As long as you're putting that seed of doubt in the kid's mind about that AI. Summary. You know, some of them are going to go, oh, hang on, I'm not going to use that for my assignment because it might not be right. You know, and it's as simple. It's as simple as that, you know, like. Yeah, it's, it's planting those seeds early. [01:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And it definitely needs. I, I think there needs to be more. You know, we're letting these big sites. There's a whole nother podcast, really. But we're letting these big sites take far too much control of our thinking in that they're telling us what we could do. Bother reading the whole thing. Here's a summary of what we believe you need to know. You know, it removes that, that inquisitive mind element in, in learning something. [01:07:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:32] Speaker A: Because it makes it quick and sexy. [01:07:33] Speaker C: And fast and well, it's all about speed, isn't it? And making things easy. And that's, you know, that's like you. [01:07:39] Speaker B: Said, that's a whole other issue, probably attention span. [01:07:43] Speaker C: Attention span related to things. Broader photography. [01:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very true. It's just for those of you watching and listening along at home, don't forget that this is the Camera Life podcast. We are joined today by freelance photojournalist Christopher Hopkins. Chris. I first met Chris at Beop Be 2024. That was my first befop. And for those of you that don't know, be is the bright festival of photography. Happens every year in the. One of the most beautiful places in the country. If you're watching along, make sure you like and subscribe. If you're listening along. Yeah. Make sure that you subscribe to our podcast. Please feel free to add comments now in the live chat or if you're watching this later, add comments and we'll get back to them on one of our Monday night random photography shows. Chris, I just wanted to ask you something about the, the writing side. Now, you know, I'm a photographer and a writer. I'm not a photojournalist, but often I blend the two. Tell me about that part of your role where you're required to actually also document and write a news story to accompany your images. [01:08:55] Speaker C: That's my decision to do that. So I will. If I'm working on one of my projects, then I'll decide whether I want to engage a journalist or write it myself. And generally it's to make the, like the product more attractive to get it in your pitch, to sell it, because it's very hard to tell an entire story with just the photographs and the Captions. So you need, you know, you need the words, you need the article, but in this, the media in this day and age, it's, you know, they're watching their dollars. So sending a photographer and a journalist is going to cost twice as much. So I've always written, and I find it's a skill that I'm reasonably good at. It's definitely not my primary skill, but I find that I can do it well enough. And, you know, I've been published, so proof's in the pudding, but it means that I can provide them with the stills and the words in one package and it makes it easier to pitch and get picked up. Yeah, I just, I think it was. It was sort of born of necessity. Like, I know I've come into photojournalism in the last 12 years and things aren't really that rosy, you know, like, you don't go out with a journalist hardly anymore, so. Right. So it's on you to, if you want to sell the story, make it as attractive as possible. [01:10:28] Speaker A: And is that true for most photojournalists now that they really have to upskill and be able to do both or upskill? [01:10:33] Speaker C: Yeah. But I think most. Sorry, I got an itchy back. Most of them would probably be pushing more to video and saying that this is my secondary skill is to do video. And that's handy for, you know, like your. Your agencies, like Getty and aap, they sort of would like to have a little bit of video at whatever news event the thing photographers at, as well as providing the stills rather than a written word. But, yeah, I don't do written word for smallish news stories. I'll only do it for the projects that I'm working on, the bigger stuff. [01:11:07] Speaker A: Yep. [01:11:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:08] Speaker A: Jim, what was it like when you were. When you were a photojournalist, were you also writing content? [01:11:15] Speaker B: No, I. I steer clear of writing. We did shoot a little bit of video and it was early days of, like, video on DSLRs and it was pretty clunky, but. Yeah. Which we had to make do. We were trying to learn. Learn new things in a, you know, new world. So. [01:11:31] Speaker C: Yeah, you're doing whatever to keep up. Right. That's what. Yeah, if that's what's required, you go and do it. You know, I worked for Fairfax's video department for a year shooting AFR video interviews, you know. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:44] Speaker C: Because that was. That's money in the bank, you know, you do what you do, get by. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah, very cool. Let's jump to a couple of comments because they're building up again. Dennis, who's on the road. This is so great. I think your work is so much about connection and trust. Making someone safe enough to be vulnerable takes astonishing skill. And your photographs are bathed in this, mate. Thank you. [01:12:09] Speaker C: Thank you, Dennis. Yeah, that's very kind of you. [01:12:12] Speaker A: Also thanks to Vodafone's new coverage. [01:12:15] Speaker C: I wonder where he's driving to. No, that's very true. Yeah. Trust is a huge thing. Trust from the subject to the photographers, you know, that is what my work's based on. Really. [01:12:27] Speaker A: Yes. [01:12:28] Speaker C: You know, like, you don't. If they don't trust what you're doing, then there's no picture, really. You know, so. And then that's, you know, it's. It takes a while to. To get that, I think. Like, it's not just you walk in and there it is and they're gonna. And you photograph that scene. It takes a lot of time, like, research, talking to the subject. Like the picture that won a Walkley Portrait of the Year last year, like, that was a job for the Good Weekend magazine. And they told me what. What it was. And then I, you know, I rang the subject and spoke to her a couple of times and we spoke about the photograph and what she was comfortable doing and things like that. It wasn't just I turned up at her house and went click and boom, there it was. And that was all. If I hadn't have reached out to her, then there's no. That's where the trust sort of thing starts, is. [01:13:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:33] Speaker C: Reached out and you've gotten in touch. Automatically that person thinks, oh, this person is invested in the photograph, and then you work from there. And, you know, even sometimes when I do turn up on. On a job, you know, I mean, a lot of photojournalists say it, that, you know, you don't pull the camera out straight away. And it's very true. You know, you have a chat, you talk to them, you have a cup of tea. You know, you. If you find a common interest or some common ground, that you've got to build a relationship, and that relationship builds and it might be built and you've done the photo within an hour. It might be 15 minutes. If you have a connection, it's about who you are and your demeanor as well. Like, being humble, I feel helps. Like, don't be. You know, try trying not to. Listening, basically. Not talking about yourself the whole time. Yeah. And again, just explain what you're doing as well. Like, explain what you feel would make a good. Particularly for portraiture explain what would make a good portrait and what they're comfortable doing. The other work, like the work in public housing and in Uganda, the long term projects I'm doing that. The trust I've built there is pretty much just through the time that I, that I put in. Into it. You know, like I'm just looking at a picture here. I'm photographing Ali and his mother in Uganda and I. If you can see, can you guys see that? I don't know. There's reflection. [01:15:10] Speaker A: I can just see myself reflect now. [01:15:12] Speaker B: I can. [01:15:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:12] Speaker A: There we can. [01:15:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So that like I met, I made, yeah, some lovely pictures of Ali and his mother. But I was with them for probably an hour and a half and we'd. The, the team and I had sort of, they prepped me about what her story was and what Ali's story was and then, then they knew probably two weeks in advance that I was going to be there that day. So all that sort of helps them prepare for my arrival. And then the fact that I don't just turn up and go boom. Straight away, you know, sit, look, you have a bit of a chat, you learn their story, write some notes, you know, I record the interviews and then sort of, you have a bit of rapport. You know, like she spoke reasonable, reasonable English and you know, we're having a chat and chatting about Ali and, and what she's going to do the rest of the day and just, you know, day to day stuff really, rather than talking about the issue that's at hand. And then, yeah, then just sort of slowly bring the camera into the, into the conversation and it works as simple as that. But it's. Yeah, it's that. That is what building trust is all about, I feel, is just taking, taking the time to listen and yeah, it comes back to that empathy that David mentioned before. You know, you can't have empathy if you don't know the person's story. So, you know. [01:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah, and there's no point faking it because it just stands out a mile away. [01:16:46] Speaker C: Yeah. Insincere pictures. Exactly. You can tell, you can, you can tell straight away. Yeah, yeah. [01:16:54] Speaker A: A couple more comments. Really great questions coming in. Another one from Bruce. How are you choosing the stories to document when not on assignment? Is there anything that you always gravitate to and how are you selling those stories in this landscape? [01:17:10] Speaker C: I guess I sort of. How I choosing the stories? They sort of fall. Aside from the two major projects that I'm working on, they sort of fall into my lap a little Bit. I don't. I don't really go searching for them. It might be something where I've photographed a story for the Guardian or the Age, and it's run and then it's gone away. It's been part of that media cycle and it's finished and forgotten about. But I've felt that it's. It's important that that gets a little bit more recognition. So I've. I've followed up and made it my own sort of thing and then I'll. I'll work on it for a few months or whatever and then on sell it. That's generally how they sort of work. Yeah. The other. The two major ones are sort of the projects that I'm working on. They've been born and evolved into these bigger things. But, yeah, they're pretty much just not ideas that I come up with. It's more things that just sort of, I feel, need more attention than what they were given in the media. Is there anything that I always gravitate to? Oh, you know, people's stories, basically. People that need more their story told rather than your big, sexy. You know, that's. I mean, conflict photography is. Is sexy and it's great. It gets heaps of coverage and stuff, but I don't. I'd sort of prefer the human element. Yeah. So things that happen afterwards. And I think that's where my skills lie as well. [01:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:54] Speaker C: And how am I selling those stories in this landscape? That's tough. It's. It is tricky. I'm very fortunate that I have really good relationships at the Nine Stable with my editors there, Danny Sprague and Paul Revere, and with Carly Earl at the Guardian, and they know my work, they trust me as well. And I. If I have a story, I'll pitch to them. Yeah. With the hope that they, you know, they will show it to their editors and. And trust the work, essentially. It is difficult in this day and age to be. To be selling stories. It's very difficult, particularly based ones. [01:19:41] Speaker B: Sorry, like, how do you, like. Do you. How do you charge for, like, such big jobs that maybe do take a. [01:19:50] Speaker C: You basically take what they offer. It's sort of. It's. The market's not in our court for this type of work, you know, unless you, you know, if you're. If you're a freelancer at the New York Times or Time magazine or whatever. I mean. And yet selling to them, you know, I've tried to sell to them before and they're sort of like this. This type of work. Chris Is great, but come to us first and then we'll commission it rather than just we give you something and buy it. Yeah, it is, it is tricky. Like Al Jazeera, whom I work with on the Uganda work. They, they just have a set rate that they pay. I could give, I could two photos and a thousand words or I could give them 3,000 words and 20 photos and it's, you know, it's the same. Yeah, yeah. It's about being smart about it like potentially if you want to make money out of it. And look, I'm lucky enough that I have enough sort of cash cows going on and I do enough sort of corporate stuff in the background that this type of project work I can afford to break even on. So I don't approach it with the, the, the, the need or the view to make a profit. It's worth. [01:21:07] Speaker A: Because the story needs to be told. [01:21:08] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. And that's. That, you know, sounds a bit holier than thou, but it does need to be told and there's no one else doing it, so why not me, you know and like I said, I am fortunate enough that I do have enough work that, that's, that's, you know, I can, I make money, you know, and I can live off of. Yeah, yeah. [01:21:28] Speaker A: I think that, I mean you, you use the term fortunate and I think it's true we are fortunate in, in many ways but also you've done the hard yard. You know, you're, you're a multi award winning photojournalist. You've documented and photographed some, some really big stories and you've obviously developed that trust with agencies that you're now in a position where you can take on these, I don't want to say passion projects because it's kind of a bit cheesy throwaway social media line, but you know what I mean? You're able to take on these things that you think like you said, these need to be told. These are stories that no one else is going to tell this and it's a crying shame. So I'm going to tell it and you're in a position now where you can actually do that. But someone coming straight out of photography school shouldn't expect to be able to pick up a gig like that straight away. It's going to take time, it's going to take effort. You've got to learn to live a little. [01:22:22] Speaker C: Yeah, you've got to learn to live a little. And it's, it's probably because of the, the hustle that I say that you Know that, that I'm fortunate. It's, it just feels like you're never, you're never quite there, if you know what I mean. Like you're, there's always this hustle. So unfortunate because I have you know, regular shifts with the age and regular assignments with the Guardian and, and the corporate work and yes, you're right, I have built that up and, and, and that's due to hard work. But because of the hustle there's always someone breathing down your neck, wanting, wanting what you have, you know, so you still have to push. I feel I still have to push. [01:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And I did mention that you are a multi award winning photographer. Anyone that's watching or listening along at home, check out Chris's website. There's a whole page dedicated to all the amazing achievements. You're a three times. I'm assuming that this is up to date. Chris, this is off your website. A three time Walkley winner which is Australia's highest honor for journalism. Which is nice. [01:23:25] Speaker C: It is up to date. [01:23:26] Speaker A: I'm just, it is up to date. Okay. You've two time National Photography, a Photographic Portrait Prize finalist and in 2025 you were the winner of Picture of the Year in the World Understanding Award category. I mean they're, they're pretty significant accolades and, and again that sort of stuff builds towards that People trust you because you know what you're doing, you're, you're obviously getting work, you're producing award winning work that, that obviously places you in good stead. [01:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah. And it often, you know like if you, you meet someone like I do, I'm, you know, I'll meet people in Uganda and they'll want to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. They'll need proof, you know, that I'm not flying, fly out. So you having these, you know, those accolades and published work, you can show them what you've done and where it's being published and, and they're often appreciative because they know that their story is going to be, you know, is out there and that's. I work with Al Jazeera on this particular project is because they have a huge reach in, in Africa and outside of Africa. So the people that I'm photographing and, and the, the organizations, they are sort of aware of that and that's almost, it's almost consciously a marketing decision in that, you know that the audience is the right audience for that story and it's broad enough that they're going to get the publicity that they Feel they need. [01:24:58] Speaker A: Yep. [01:25:00] Speaker C: And the awards will help talent again because the awards come in later. So you can re. Re. Purpose and keep pushing it. [01:25:09] Speaker A: Yep, yep. No, it's a very good way of looking at it. It's not just about you. It's about repromoting the story, isn't it? It's about. That's great. It's another notch in my. What's the saying? Not to my belt, is it? No, that's irrelevant as well. [01:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:25:24] Speaker A: It keeps you relevant. But also like you said, it gives another opportunity for this story to be retold because more eyes will be on it because of the accolades. I just going to bring up your website. I want to just show some people why isn't it adding it. There we go. Now this collection here is from. [01:25:44] Speaker C: This is what I'm talking about a lot about the project in Uganda. This is. They teach us to sing, but there's no songs about Us. Sort of follows. It's documenting the crisis of Ugandans with disability. They're, you know, they're still at this point where culturally they don't understand, like, as a broader topic, they don't understand disability. It's still treated as a curse. You know, there's still. You still find children mercy killed, tied up, tethered. And often that's not because of any malice. It's because the family just doesn't have any. Anything else they can do. They still have to go to work. And the child, you know, this particular boy, he. Perez, he. He used to run away and get violent and, you know, ruined. So he strip off and he'd run around naked, screaming and, And. And punch people and. And so they had to tie him up. [01:26:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:47] Speaker C: You know, I think there's a shot. [01:26:48] Speaker A: In this collection of this one child tied to their bed. [01:26:53] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's from last December. I. I met that boy, David, and it's purely because he. He can get. He's a. Generally a lovely boy, but he punches up his old brother and the gr. The fam. The mother and father have had to leave the village because they're destitute. They need money, they've got three kids, so they. The only work they can get is out of town. So they basically live away from his village and the care is left up to his grandmother, who's old, you know, she can't care for a teenage boy with a disability. [01:27:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:26] Speaker C: So the only thing she can resort to is tying him up, you know, so that's. That you find that quite. That's a regular occurrence over there. So this. Yeah. Rapes another. It's quite horrible. But rape of women with disability is a huge issue. This young girl on the. On the. Well, my. Yeah, the rider frame. [01:27:56] Speaker A: Yep. [01:27:57] Speaker C: She's mentally intellectually disabled. She was raped by her neighbor who lived like five yards away from their house. He would come in nightly and rape her. She didn't know what was happening because of her disability. She gave birth to that young boy there, Edwin. And he doesn't know that that's his mother. So he knows that's his mother, but she doesn't know who the boy is. That's the sort of grandmother looks after this boy. [01:28:25] Speaker A: Yep. [01:28:26] Speaker C: And that's, you know, that. That again, that's a regular occurrence. You know, there's the. The man fled and he's not. Never been charged. Never. They've never seen him again. There's another one of the first images. That's where she sleeps. You know, that's. That's her bedroom. So she sleeps in the. In the storehouse with coal and. And wood. Yeah, it's pretty. Yeah, it's pretty ordinary. Like ghosts. Goats are untethered, you know, like. Oh, I had the chance to. Yeah. Visit. Which. Which. He's a witch doctor, Robert. Yeah. That's an interesting. Yeah, the witch doctor is very interesting that that's still commonly used as a form of. Of medicine and practice to cure these kids. And, you know, there. There are witch doctors there, or they call themselves traditional healers who milk that system like. Right. Charge exuberant fees to pretend basically to cure someone of disability. But there are one. There are witch doctors there who genuinely feel that their work helps. Yeah. Like Robert. But it obviously doesn't because, you know, there's no science to it. And. Yeah, it's a pretty ordinary way of. It is a cry. I said it was a crisis and I think it is still. There's no. No money goes towards disability over there. I think like one and a half percent of the. Of the health budget gets put towards disability. And that, you know, in. In money, monetary terms, I think that works out to like $200,000 a year. [01:30:09] Speaker A: Goes towards. It goes nowhere. [01:30:12] Speaker B: And then scratch the surface. [01:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:13] Speaker C: I spoke to the. The minute. The assistant Commissioner for Health while I was there, and he said that, you know, that money doesn't do anything. You know, it's just not enough to do anything. Yeah, it's pretty dire, you know, and then usa, they're pulling funding in. In there as well. Yeah. [01:30:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And so you've been working on this project. Did you say eight years or 10? [01:30:39] Speaker C: Well, I first went over there in 2014, and that was for a story that was more about mental health of these child soldiers. And then that's sort of. And it sort of evolved into mental health in. Yeah. Ugandans who are victims of conflict, which. Because there was the war over there with the lra, which in the north went for years and years with Joseph Coney and Kenneth Banya leading the. They would basically steal children out of villages and turn them into child soldiers to fight the army. And that all got done and dusted. But a lot of the children had mental health issues. So I went over there to document that, and that sort of led into. That got published in. When was it? 2015 and 2017. An organization, an American organization that worked with children with disabilities, saw it and got in touch and said, we'd love if you came and did the same sort of thing with children with disability, because this is what's going on. And they explained sort of what I've just been talking about. And that was. That took a long time to get a grant for me to get over there. And a journalist and I went in 20. Early 2020, about just before the pandemic, actually. The journalist, he had to go back to Ireland because they were shutting the borders. And then I got in. I got back. I came back two days early or something, and I got in. Yeah, I think they shut the airports, like three or four days later. Yeah. So that was this. So basically this body of work. Yeah, I started in 2020, so I said five years. [01:32:23] Speaker A: And so can I ask you, what is it that keeps you going back? What is it that keeps you invested in this as a. As a human, as a parent, as a photographer, a storyteller? [01:32:37] Speaker C: As a storyteller, I feel that because it's not really getting any better. There's still things I. I feel that. I feel that the work that I'm doing gets a bit of promotion for the cause or for the issue, and then that's. That's great. But then nothing ever happens. The. The work. The work was used in a court case with Perez, who you just had on screen, I'm looking at now. He. His family took the government to court for human rights abuses, and they end up winning. Wow. On the premise that the government didn't provide enough education or facility for Perez to not be cleaned up. Basically, they were saying that the government should be providing information about autism and. And intellectual disability, and they weren't. So that led to his being tied up for. He was tied up for 11 years. He was tied to a tree. And, and then, and that the work that we did in 2020 got referenced in that case. So as a photojournalist, that's sort of what, why you do it. You know, it's like you're enforcing change. And the government was. The punishment was to create these guidelines that would mean children once they're born, like we do here, you screen kids when they're little basically to implement that sort of a program where children, I don't know, at the age when they're toddlers, they get screened for intellectual disability. And then you would be able to identify them and get them the help they need from a young age to, you know, assist them through life. Yeah, they, I went back in was it 23 and I sat in on the, I photographed actually the, the working group that was putting together these guidelines and there were no government officials there. Right. Basically left up to different organizations to get together a board. And this one man, Stephen Kabenge, he, he put this board of people together and they put together the guidelines and then presented them to the government when it should have been the government who was building the guidelines. So they just. There's a lack of prioritization over there. So I mean, that's one reason why I keep going back is because these court stories keep jumping up and. Yeah, you need to go back photographically. Yeah, I don't know how much more I can do in terms of, of new work. But you know, I'm part of a, a charity that's working over there in Soroti so that it's sort of now evolved into that sort of level of, of work. Yeah. Which is. Yeah, we're trying to get their website sorted and stuff now, but it's. Yeah, I'll be back at some point. I just don't know when. You also need, you need a reason story wise to be going back as well. You know, like. Yeah, last year, like there's a place called the Home of Hope who, who needed help and they had, you know, that's where I met this rape victim who the, the. She's 13, she was raped by a neighbor up the road and didn't know she was pregnant. The mother's pregnant. So she, when I met them, she was seven months pregnant and her daughter with. Who has an intellectual disability was also seven months pregnant. But they didn't know. And then this fella who, who raped her said, yeah, yeah, I'll look after the child and I'll look after you guys. I'll give you a bar of soap and a bag of sugar every month until the child's born. And like, oh, okay, we'll take that. And then he left. He just left. No one knows where he is. And no justice. And then they got the family. The mother's quite brave and courageous. Got the Home of Hope involved, and they're trying to get to the bottom of the case now. So that's why I went back in December, was to cover that side of the story. [01:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's an impressive body of work and there's certainly something to say for your maybe sense of worldly community about being a part of this, this, you know, this plight. And it's just one of countless stories that are happening throughout the world through an underdeveloped world. Yeah, that, that go on. That go unspoken that, you know, people aren't. Aren't aware of. I just want to jump to a couple of comments and then I want to follow that up with a, with a question for you. David said strong, Chris. And, and I 100 agree with that. Poetry, emotion. That is. Well, some of this work must keep you up at night. And then followed by. This breaks me. This is from Bruce. Sorry, the previous one was from David in San Fran. How do you process this, Chris? PTSD can come for everyone. And that, that kind of leaves me. I think Bruce has already asked the question, but how does it, how do you deal with seeing these situations? You're a parent, you've got, you've got your own flock. And going to these places and seeing these kids in these situations where there's, there's a lack of education, there's a lack of support, there's no facilities, you know, that that young girl who had been raped was sleeping in a. Basically a shed. How do you cope with that personally? [01:38:07] Speaker C: Probably not as well as I should. It's. Yeah, I think I, I, Yeah, I definitely have. I wouldn't say I've had. I have ptsd. I've never been diagnosed with that, but it does, it does have an effect. Yeah, I'd, I think that the best I can do is being prepared. So knowing what I'm getting as much information as I can when I go into a situation like that and knowing what I'm going to see probably alleviates any shock. I remember the first time that I saw a kid tied up there within 2020, there was, there was an element of shock. And that I think is what starts to breed any form of mental health issue, is trying to process that shock. [01:38:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:38:56] Speaker C: So now. But even and even then I knew what I was going to see. But seeing it for the first time was when there was that shock. Now that it's been a few times, it's. And I know what I'm gonna, I'm getting myself into. I think that helps in a way. Decompressing when you at the end of the day helped as well. And I don't mean by, you know, having 10 beers or whatever, just sort of sitting there going through the pictures, processing them and then leaving it alone for a bit and doing something else that's not work related. It helps. And then when you come home, you know, decompressing when you're at home, like I, the last time I was there in December, I just jumped straight back into work and I pretty much haven't stopped since. And I feel that it's starting to now get a bit like, you know, I need a break, you know. Yeah. Because I've written the story, I've sent it off to Al Jazeera, now we're rewriting and I'm just editing bits up and that's what I've been doing this week. And yeah, it's sort of like, okay, I'm back here again and I don't want to feel like. So I'm feeling that, yeah, having a break is. [01:40:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:10] Speaker C: Break away from work, like just. Yeah. In a week off doing nothing. You know, I try and do a week, a year where I do absolutely nothing and this year I haven't done it yet and I normally have. So yeah. Yeah, I feel it's time. [01:40:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's important for everyone. I mean, I know it's not always possible for visual creatives to find the time to take off, but when you are working on heavy hitting assignments or you're doing big jobs, it's always important to find that time to step back from it because otherwise you start to kind of cut off emotionally, I think from. [01:40:40] Speaker C: Yes. [01:40:41] Speaker A: What you're doing. I think that's the risk that you. Our natural defense of shock is to bottle up that emotion like cut. Cut that side of it off. And that's obviously very, very dangerous and unhealthy. [01:40:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:40:54] Speaker A: Just quickly from Greg Carrick, friend of the show, has helped me co host a few times. Hats off to you, Chris. Keeping your empathy throughout these years. And I think that's a really great, really valid point there, Greg. So what's on the cards for you next? [01:41:13] Speaker C: Next? [01:41:14] Speaker A: What are you working towards? A break, well earned break. I think we can all agree that you deserve a Break, Chris. [01:41:20] Speaker C: I. I mean, I'm still working on a project called Windows in Public Housing that's sort of taken a bit of a back burner because of. Basically because of what we've just been talking about. But once. Yeah, once I've. This is published, the Teachers to Sings published and. And I've had that break, I'll be jumping back into that project, which is quite a bit. That's. That's a real. That's a longer, ongoing look at the sort of ingrained racism that's sort of permeating in the public housing system at the moment, which there's a lot of going on in that space. And yeah, I think I might. Earlier in my career I mentioned that I went to Vietnam. I think I might try and revisit that. That story maybe later in the year. I got a few phone calls to make about getting that off the. Off the. Up off the ground. [01:42:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I just wanted to touch on. On this image here of Genie and Jasmine. When I was prepping for today's podcast, I came across this image. This is on Chris's website. Sorry, for those that are podcast listeners only, you can check out Chris's Instagram or his website and links will be in the show notes below. But Jeannie and Jasmine I've known since my kids. My eldest, who's now 26, was in primary school. So Jeie. Yeah, they used to live in. In. In Pran, around the corner from where we are now. And my kids and Jeannie's kids all went to school together. And I knew Jeie when she was the first time she was relocated and some of the traumas. I remember we would meet for coffee often and some of the traumas that she faced and hardships and just the lack of communication and understanding from, I guess, the government side of things, who were demolishing her home and expecting her to move her life to a completely different part of Melbourne. Yeah. And. And just that. Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that because I think it's just small world that I was going through your images and I came across. Oh, that's Genie. Like, I know. Yeah, Genie and Jasmine. I've known about this story, you know, I think Jeannie's the mum of, I think seven or eight kids. [01:43:33] Speaker C: Yeah. It's a small town really, isn't it? Everyone will know someone who knows everyone. [01:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating for me, I guess at a personal note that, you know, you're telling this story that I. That I saw firsthand through knowing Jenny, through the, you know, the parents Group. [01:43:56] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I've got a. Her interview is. Is. Is very, very, really, really strong. And yeah, I'm gonna put that all together, and that's probably the next thing that I'll start doing is I gotta get back down, see Genie, and shoot some B roll stuff for the video and some more stills. But it's. Yeah, things just keep piling up, you know. [01:44:16] Speaker A: Yep, yep. World keeps turning. The news keeps coming. [01:44:20] Speaker C: It does, it does. Did a pope die the other day? I think. [01:44:23] Speaker A: Yeah, he did. Apparently J.D. vance is being held accountable. More American. So, Chris, a couple of questions I want to ask because Justin wouldn't forgive me if I didn't. Every podcast guest we like to. Justin likes to ask the zombie apocalypse question. No, I'm not either, but. But basically the. The concept is the world is ending. Okay. The zombies are on the horizon, and you've got to. You've got to grab one camera and one lens only to document the end of humanity or what's going on in front of you. And so what is your go to zombie apocalypse camera and lens? [01:45:08] Speaker C: Wow. Nikon. You know, they. They pay me to do some things, so I better be smart about this. Well, it would definitely be my trusty 35mil 1.8 Nikon S lens, and I would probably have it on my zf. That's the one. That's the. That's the kit that I pretty much. That's all I use when I'm in Uganda and when I'm in public, the public housing, that's all I. So. And it serves me well. It's light, small, like David said, it's unobtrusive. So there would be that. [01:45:44] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. [01:45:45] Speaker B: Speaking. Speaking on that. Just really quickly, will you get the 1.2 or too big? [01:45:50] Speaker C: No, too big. [01:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:52] Speaker C: Yeah. I've been at them for ages. If Julie Kimpton's watching this, you'll be sick of me hearing me say it. But if they make one of the smaller pancake ones in a 35 mil, I'll. You know, I won't use anything else till I'm dead, but because it's just the perfect. That 40 mil size is perfect, but it's not a 35 mil. And then they have made this new 35 mil. That's a monster lens. And it sort of. You put it on the ZF and it's just too big and. And it doesn't sort of. It's not quite right. Whereas all the one. Once they make the smaller one, that'll be me. I'll throw the Rest of the kit out. Yeah. [01:46:30] Speaker A: David, who is a. A Nikon fanboy, agrees that this is the best. I think he means the best answer to that question so far. [01:46:39] Speaker C: Jim. [01:46:40] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. Yes. We should get Julie on the show, Bruce. Most definitely. [01:46:45] Speaker C: That would be manic. [01:46:48] Speaker A: Sorry. Julie is well known to us. [01:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll give her a call. [01:46:53] Speaker A: Yeah, let's get her on. Let's get her on with someone from Canon or Sony. Let's just see how that goes. So well earned break is on the cards. Let's hope that the world stays relatively stable just for a little bit for you anyway. And no major, no major local events take you away from your, from your recovery time. Revisiting some past projects. What else have you got on the cards? I mean obviously we've got beef up. When's that? October. November. [01:47:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:47:31] Speaker A: Are you, are you rejoining BFOP this year? [01:47:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so, yeah. Pretty sure that I'm there. What else, what else have I got to go? Nothing really. Those are the things. I mean Nikon are trying to get me. I'm sure that we're working on some workshop stuff in Melbourne's education, like some unis that sort of kicks off over the next couple of months. Yeah. Regular work with the Age and the Guardian. [01:48:06] Speaker A: Yep. [01:48:07] Speaker C: Yeah. It's just pretty much the focus has been on these two projects and not thinking too far ahead, I mean I'm looking at maybe doing a project on religion and the like religious rights among around different religions and looking into that and that would probably be more a bit of a sort of a book project maybe. Oh yeah, that's very early, early, early days. I photographed the. Was it the. The Shiite Muslim used to do this thing in Melbourne where they'd like to be thousands and thousands and they'd all self flagellate and walk around Melbourne for an hour or so on a specific day. I'm not exactly sure what it was, but it was relevant to their. That their former Muslim Islam and just make these wonderful pictures and I just thought, oh, I wonder if I could build on that and incorporate other religions and the rights that they have specific to their religion also. [01:49:04] Speaker A: By rights you mean R, I, T E S. Yes, religious freedom. [01:49:09] Speaker C: Yes, yeah, yeah. And ceremonies and things like that. So. Because there's a lot, there's a lot there that could be photographed. I don't know that. [01:49:17] Speaker A: Would you keep that local to Australia that this is what. [01:49:20] Speaker C: That's a travel one? Yeah. There's another photojournalist in Melbourne, an Italian guy and he's Told me there's some things that happen over there in, within the Catholic Church that would be good to photograph. So that's in the back of my mind when that sort of starts. I don't know, keep planning for that. [01:49:38] Speaker A: But yeah, it would be an interesting time to be a photographer in the Vatican right now. [01:49:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:43] Speaker A: Because of events don't happen very often and there's some very deep seated, long standing traditions being. [01:49:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Right now that's the movie Conclave. It's perfectly timed, isn't it? It's like an educational movie now watching there at the moment. Yeah. [01:50:02] Speaker A: Well, I think, I think given that and given that you've, you've got a shift starting very soon, I think we might, we might bring today's show to a bit of a close. Did you have any other questions, Jim, that you. [01:50:13] Speaker B: No, I think we're got through a bit of it. [01:50:17] Speaker A: Yep. Last comment just dropped in. Might be coming to Bright. [01:50:23] Speaker C: David is. [01:50:25] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe might be coming to Bright this year. See you there. We'll all be there. Lucky straps will be there. We'll probably do some camera life shenanigans from there. [01:50:32] Speaker C: I'll give you a ring in a minute. Right. [01:50:37] Speaker A: But look, just before we do wrap up, I think it's fair to say impressive body of work, Chris, you. And I think that your approach, you know, talking about trust, building, humility and just being grounded and approaching work, this sort of work, you know, as a decent human being and wanting to tell stories that otherwise go on untold. And I think there's a lot of value in that and I think there's a lot for you to be proud of as well. That. Yeah, it's come across to me that this is more than a job for you, that the need to tell stories, the right stories and to tell them effectively is, is a resounding theme from today's discussion with you. So we thank you for joining us on the Camera Life podcast. It's been an absolute honor. You've been on the top of our guest list for quite some time probably since beef up and, and Justin and I saying let's, you know, let's. And Jim obviously as well saying let's get this podcast up and running and because I attended one of your workshops, we talked about this yesterday on the phone and, and, and learned a huge amount from it. Just a couple of hours spending time with, with yourself and other photographers and you know, great experience for sure. I feel very privileged for those of you watching and listening along at home. This has been the camera Life podcast, episode 72, if you can believe that. And it's the. It's. It's the 24th of April. I hope that everyone has an enjoyable weekend ahead. It's Anzac Day here in Australia tomorrow. We celebrate all the soldiers and service people who fought in past wars for Australia. So today's. Tomorrow's actually a public holiday. Chris has got a day off and sounds of it, which is nice, but. But look, thanks everyone for watching and listening. Continue to add your comments on the show. We will get to them on Monday night's episode at 7:30pm But I think that pretty much wraps it. Jim. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:52:38] Speaker B: Thank you, Chris. [01:52:39] Speaker C: Chris. [01:52:40] Speaker A: Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for your time. [01:52:43] Speaker C: Thank you. Thanks for having me. [01:52:46] Speaker A: It's been our pleasure. But look, on that note, we will say goodbye, everyone. Make sure that you like and subscribe. Let us know what you think in the comments. Is there anyone that you'd like to see on the show in future, in future episodes, let us know. But above all else, grab a camera, just get out and hunt some light for a while. It'll do you a world of good. And on that note, we'll say goodbye. Alrighty. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Jim. Thank you. Catch you on Monday night. All right, everybody, have a good one. Bye. Sorry there's no music. By the way, Chris is going to sing. [01:53:20] Speaker B: House behind him. [01:53:21] Speaker C: There's a guitar there. I'm not singing. [01:53:23] Speaker A: No. All right, we'll let it go for now. Have a good one, everyone. See you soon. Bye. Bye. [01:53:28] Speaker B: Thank you.