A conversation with Jonas Wilson (EP215)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Well, g' day everybody and welcome back to the Camera Live podcast. It is Thursday 10th September, 2026 and for those of you that are keeping count, yes, it is only 29 days till beef up. That is the bright festival photography. That's as much as I'm going to say on that today. But welcome to yet another episode. And being a Thursday morning, of course we have a special guest in the studio. But before we say g' day to our guest, let me introduce someone who needs no introduction. It's the honey to my crumpet. It's Justin Castles. How are you, mate? [00:00:56] Speaker C: I'm great. Good morning, Greg. The honey to your crumpet. Yeah, I like that. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Just came up with that then. Yeah, I'm far better at things in the morning. Anyway, enough about you. How are you? [00:01:07] Speaker C: You good? I'm good. Busy. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Good. [00:01:10] Speaker C: It's a. Yeah, busy week. Lots to do, lots of fun. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Congratulations once again on your amazing news that you're going to be a daddy. J. How's your layer traveling? Is she good? [00:01:20] Speaker C: She's doing good. She's doing good. She's got a puppy to keep at bay as well, which he's. He's free roaming this morning. Yelena's about to go back to the gym. Puppy's free roaming. So if he comes in mid podcast, I might have to deal with that. But we'll see, especially if he's on the road. Stuff I was printing, I was doing test prints yesterday, trying out different Ilford papers and he was until I moved my office, the printers close to the floor and he just took a print as it was coming off the out of the tray and just walked off with it in his mouth. Just took one. [00:01:52] Speaker B: I was like, wow, he's got taste. He likes that good quality paper. [00:01:56] Speaker C: He's also got very sharp teeth and that print is ruined. But yeah, so anyway, fair enough. [00:02:03] Speaker B: Well, look, that is enough about you. We are joined today by German born, Melbourne based street and travel photographer, Jonas Wilson. G', day, Jonas. How are you? [00:02:12] Speaker A: I'm good, thanks. How are you guys? [00:02:14] Speaker C: Really good. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Okay. Doing okay. The light is golden. You're a Melbourne boy too, so you can see it. [00:02:21] Speaker A: I am. [00:02:21] Speaker B: It's calling. It is calling. Always calling. Yeah, we're going to unwrap your entire journey today and we're gonna. Well, as much as we, we feel like unwrapping them and we're gonna dig into your street photography and you know, what brought you to the craft. But you know, kicking off with a question, you know, as you know, I'm a street photographer too. I've been doing a lot of work around the whole street photography thing for a better part of a decade. And it's only just been recently for me that I've identified myself more as an artist than just a photographer. You know, I've sort of given myself permission to lean into that side of my craft. Where do you put yourself in that? You know, in that kind of spectrum of, you know, is it just something you do for kicks? Is it a creative purpose or is it art for you? Where do you put yourself on that. On that scale? [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's quite an interesting question. I think, starting out, it was definitely like a documentarian sort of lens that I was coming from. Just in terms of. I always just wanted to photograph and film, especially at the start, whatever I was doing. So I'd go out with friends and sort of check out abandoned buildings or go on some crazy hikes. And it was always just like, bring the camera, take photos of whatever was there, and then, you know, if they turn out well, so be it. That's like an added bonus. But I think as I started to then lean into just, you know, the trips and the adventures, becoming more photography based as in the photography was the purpose of the adventure. That's when I sort of realized that I was taking a lot more effort and care in what I'm actually composing and, you know, the subjects I'm choosing. It wasn't just, you know, pull the camera up every opportunity. It started to become more of a, okay, I'm looking for interesting scenes. I'm looking for cool lighting. I'm looking for something unique about this place. I'd say that was probably about two or so years after I got my first, like, proper camera, which was just a point and shoot Nick on. But yeah, that's when I sort of shifted into, I guess, the more creative mindset, if that's. That's the best way to put it. Or maybe like the artist lens. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah, right. It's interesting, isn't it? Did you ask question, Jay? [00:04:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I was just like, I'm just. I'm kind of. I was listening to you talk and I was scrolling back through your Instagram at the same time trying to see if I could see a change in things from being more. Because you've traveled a lot at like a ton by the look of it. How. Tell me a little bit, like, how many places have you been to off the top of your head? How many countries? [00:04:59] Speaker A: Oh, I mean, I was pretty fortunate just because we Would go back and visit family in Germany basically every year of my childhood. And I sort of kept that up in adulthood trying to visit maybe every like one or two years. At least I've got, you know, close family and friends there. And then just being so close to so many other countries, it was pretty easy to, you know, pop in and out of other places. But off the top of my head, somewhere in the realm of like 20, 25 maybe. [00:05:28] Speaker C: Yeah. And, and do you remember, do you remember a trip that was the first one where it was a purely sort of a photography focused trip? Do you remember planning one? [00:05:46] Speaker A: Well, I think I, I hadn't really traveled solo until actually, I guess the very simple answer is a trip up to Sydney that I did on my own when I was 19. So I went up there to join like a photo walk that was run by a group of sort of Melbourne based photographers that then did. They went up to Sydney to do a photo walk there and I thought, you know what, I'll fly up there for the weekend. And that was probably the first time I went somewhere that wasn't sort of around home with the sole purpose of I'm going here to take photos. But as far as like an international trip, I guess it's, it's tricky because I still obviously want to go to places that I just enjoy outside of photography as well. [00:06:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, rarely thought of them as just photography trips. [00:06:30] Speaker C: What, what was the Sydney trip like? Did you, did you, did it meet your expectations of what you expected when you hung out with all these photographers and just, just focused on photography for that weekend or was it different to what you thought it was going to be like? [00:06:46] Speaker A: No, absolutely. I mean, a few of the other boys that were up there at the same time, I'd also met at like the previous Melbourne photo walk. So there are, you know, a few familiar faces around. But I think going up there with that sort of sense of we're all going up here for the weekend and we're all like 18 to 20 years old, so it's kind of exciting. Like that really solidified a lot of those friendships and a few of those boys in particular, like I'm still friends with to this day, sort of seven and a half years later. One of them in particular, Max, who was actually also, he's German as well and I met him while he was here on exchange. We've maintained that friendship and then now since gone on to do like other trips together overseas and stuff. So I think it's, it really solidified that sort of sense of community for me. And it gave me a lot more confidence in just like, you know, there are people out there who I can share this with. And that was sort of early days of me posting on Instagram as well. So, yeah, it was a lot of that. My work is worth sharing and it's like fun to build a community around this sort of shared hobby. That was what changed on that trip for me. [00:07:48] Speaker B: That's great. That's a really important moment. I think you've mentioned a couple of moments in your timeline that really ring true for me as well. It's that time when it flips where you're just taking a camera because you're going somewhere. The camera is secondary. It wasn't the purpose of the trip to then flipping that to being actually, I'm going to travel just to do a photo trip, just to take photos. I really love that flip and that little awakening that actually, I can actually still have amazing trips, but just centering around the photography and the camera and the light will lead me to the amazing things I want to see. Yeah, I certainly found that with my first trip to Tokyo. That was that traveling for photography. Yeah, it's just something special about it. [00:08:37] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny, too. [00:08:39] Speaker A: Very different experience. Sorry. [00:08:41] Speaker C: Also, when you. When you're young. When you're young, finding a group of people that are all excited about the one thing that maybe in your normal world, in your normal circle of friends, no one's really into that thing can be a really. I don't know, I can only think of maybe one experience where I had that. So I didn't get into photography until I was like 30. But when I was younger, I was into wakeboarding. And then this weird sport popped up called wake skating. It's basically. It's like wakeboarding, but with no binding. So it's like skateboarding on the water. Super popular, but not really. Not really popular at all. No one. No one knows about it, but there was this sort of small crew in Australia of people doing it from, like, people that were really good. And then people like me that just did it for fun. And then someone hosted this event in Queensland called Winter Wakesgate Wonderland. And it was like in the middle of winter up on the Sunshine coast. And everyone from around Australia, it was probably only 100 people, but everyone came there for the one weekend and it was just. It was that like that first feeling of no one else understands this, but this whole group of people are here for the same reason. And it's very energizing and Maybe validating is the right word. I don't know. It was. Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker C: I wonder if that's, that's the kind of feeling you got on that weekend where you're like, wow, this is. Yeah, this is something. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. Especially, I guess I'd always just done photography like on my own or I'd had friends that appreciated what I was doing. But like you said as well, it's like having the actual shared interest where you're equally passionate about the same thing is very different than when it's just someone who says, oh, you know, those, those photos are cool, but doesn't really understand maybe the whole process behind it. So, yeah, it definitely was some of that. And it was always funny just walking around in groups of, you know, close to 200 people, all with cameras out, all in one big group. Yeah, yeah, those, those sort of events used to be huge. There's still a few that happen in Melbourne from time to time as well that I know are quite big. But I think those, the early ones that I went to, I remember, like, yeah, genuinely hundreds of people and obviously just seeing people's reactions to that many people with cameras, it's quite funny. [00:10:55] Speaker B: It is an amazing energy, isn't it? And Jay, I think that's so Jonas. Every year the Bright Festival photography happens in Bright, in Victoria. Have you heard of the festival before? So bfop. No. This will be our third year. I haven't. Okay, so it's, it's been going for 10 years. This will be the 10th year. It's in 29 days. It starts and it's a three day photography festival held in Bright. And that energy that you were talking about, when you're with community and people that understand your craft, it, it elevates your energy. It elevates your. I, I think it just elevates how you feel about what you're doing, that, you know, you're surrounded by people who get it and I think that's really empowering. But the Bright Festival is like that, Jay. It's that energy that we have trouble describing sometimes where. And it's all community. It's creative community. It's people that are, you know, given, given a space and permission to just be their true creative selves and that energy flourishes and it's inspiring. And people learn from each other and make connections and it's, you know, it's. And, and community is, you know, one of the core pillars of what we do here at the, at the podcast. You know, we're building a community of People, we, we have people who support us and, and, and we do everything we can to support them. And I think that's really important, especially in the face of, you know, what we're dealing with today as photographers in terms of the challenges around AI and image authenticity. You know, that, yeah, we feel a little bit threatened and attacked by this new technology. And I know, you know, we know lots of photographers who, who hate it, who are against it, and others dabbling it. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:12:35] Speaker B: yeah. [00:12:36] Speaker C: All right, Tell, tell, tell me, tell me what, you tell me your thoughts on AI. [00:12:41] Speaker A: I could go on a whole, a whole long rant about this, but I think, do it. Summary of it, let it go. I think allows people to try to access, like the end product without having to do any of the work that it takes to actually get there. So, you know, everyone thinks, I can make these images now, but they've never actually developed the skill set in what it takes to actually create a good image. Or, you know, same goes for paintings, any design, anything that can be generated with AI. Now basically, you know, you think of this like the 10,000 hour rule to become a master of something. You put 10,000 hours into it and it's, you're just bypassing that. But then because I guess people are relying on that, they've never had to do the process, so they never, they don't really have the skill set to be able to critique it either. So they can't necessarily tell when it's actually a good image or not, I think. So it's like you, you can make anything, but you don't really understand what it takes to make a good version of this. So you don't understand whether this is a good version of this or not. So it's kind of, I feel like you end up with a lot of these like, oh, it looks good enough. And you know, you see it on a lot of advertising now, video and photo and print and everything, where it's like, it could just be better and you could have just, you know, hired someone to do this for you and it would have looked 10 times better. But you think it looks good enough, but it just looks tacky to someone who does understand what it could be. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:13:58] Speaker A: I think it just detracts a lot from, you know, the meaning of what it actually is to be a creator of something. [00:14:05] Speaker B: And I think that's a really good point you raised. I went to the Fujifilm Creator Summit earlier this year and the, the general manager of Fujifilm Australia got up and did an opening keynote talk and he was talking about the threat of AI, and he said, I think that people will return to the authenticity of real photography because it will become very apparent very quickly that AI, AIs read and looked at everything we've ever done, and it's making up its own conclusions and it's, you know, and it's learning from that stuff, but it doesn't know what it feels like to stand on some kill, to be taking photos and the sun is warming your face. You know, it doesn't. It doesn't understand the emotion felt by a wedding photographer and seeing a couple who may have struggled to get to this point, you know, actually seal that. That moment and capture that moment for them. You know, it doesn't understand any of that. And the other interesting. I heard about AI the other day, I can't remember how exact word for word, but they said, you know, it's interesting that in the space of, you know, a handful of heartbeats, AI has learned everything that we've done to get to this point in our evolution. It's learned everything that we have recorded. And so all of that effort, all of that work, all of those heartaches and input and output have just become meaningless almost, because AI has just absorbed them all and now thinks it can replicate them without us having to do any hard work. And I fear that our progress, potentially even our evolution, will stall because of it, because we need critical thinking to survive, and we're losing that skill set. That's very deep for a Thursday morning. Starting off, I have been day drinking. I promise, I don't even drink. [00:15:49] Speaker C: I have two quick points on AI, two different things, but. So I was chatting to a friend of mine, he's a refrigeration mechanic. He's been doing that for Tony. No, not Tony, no. [00:16:01] Speaker B: What refrigeration mechanics do you know? [00:16:03] Speaker C: I know a few. This one, this one's delightfully known as Wombat. Anyway, so I was talking to Wombat and he was talking about using AI to help diagnose an issue that he was trying to solve with a large system. And he was saying how amazing it was, like, how fast it was able to do it. We're sort of chatting about it. And I said, yeah, but he is. He has well and truly done the 10,000 hours, probably more like 20,000 hours. And I said, if I was trying to do it with AI, would it have just worked? And he was like, oh, no, you wouldn't have been able to, like, you wouldn't have been able to communicate with it on that level. And understand whether it's saying the right thing or the wrong thing or whatever to allow it to. So it's not like. And that's where it's. If you have the foundation, it could actually be quite a powerful tool. If you're a, if you're a world class photographer, you might be able to do something really special with AI. Yeah. Because you understand what you're trying to create and you might be able to use it as a tool to do something, to either change something or create something from nothing. But you know what it should look like because you've put the work in and you understand the foundations. And I think that. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Well, Steve Parrish is a good example of that. [00:17:19] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Now using AI to shortcut some of the painful parts of what he's trying to achieve with what remains of his [00:17:26] Speaker C: life, you know, post processing and things like that. He's using it for sort of turning photographs into these sort of more painterly art pieces that he likes to create and he's embracing it. But he, you know, he's been photographing for 50 years, so he knows. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Well, and Julia at the time. [00:17:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Earned it. That was my one point. What was my other one? Oh, it was a goodie. It'll come to me anyway. AI. Hey. It's crazy. [00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I saw, I saw an Instagram post last night and I just couldn't believe it. And then I thought, oh yeah, that makes sense. Is that a Hungry Jack? There's a guy going through the Hungry Jacks drive through. And the. Instead of an actual human, an employee with a headset on asking how can I take your order? It was AI and it would ask questions based on what he, what he ordered. And it wouldn't surprise me if they, if they use either facial or, or you know like license plate recognition to, to say hey, last time you were here, you know, you had a double Whopper. No Cheat or double waffle, you know, whatever. Do you want the same again? You know, like it. But it's taken away some kids job. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Yeah, well it's slope as well because I think with that sort of thing, especially if it's got facial number plate recognition and you know, that sort of purchasing habit, pattern recognition, you know, you run the risk of is it going to start making things more expensive because it knows that you want them. [00:18:49] Speaker C: And oh, imagine if the pricing at McDonald's change per customer like because they're like. [00:18:56] Speaker A: I mean I know that's. This guy loves some supermarkets. I think it feels like I saw [00:19:03] Speaker C: there was some rumors about that. And then it kind of got, they pushed back and said, no, no, it's just for like, not, not that, you know, but it sort of seemed like it was going that direction. But then they were like, no, we just use it for this. And, and I can't remember. [00:19:18] Speaker B: So sick of the super. The big supermarkets here in Australia treating us like we haven't seen them do this stuff over and over and over again. The fake sales, like they put a thing saying, you know, on Special for 8.60 and you lift the sales ticket and the normal ticket is $7, 20. Yeah, it's like it's on sale. They put the price up to then entice you with a yellow sticker. You know, it's just that whole, that whole greed and dishonesty. [00:19:43] Speaker C: It's just disingenuous discounts. Like. So me, along with apparently everyone else in Australia, I started drinking that chocolate coconut stuff. Have you drank that, Jonas? It's like, it's like in a milk carton. It's like coconut, coconut water, but chocolate flavored. It's delicious. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Okay. Delicious in those, like big blue and white sort of carton containers. [00:20:09] Speaker C: One liter, blue and white. You'll see them everywhere now. You'll see kids just rocking around, just drinking straight out of the 1 liter thing. It's pretty good. Anyway, it's super expensive and sometimes it's half price. It was 2.75 house price. I bought like 10 of them, but then the next week, now it's $27 for six. And I did the math and I was like that, that's full price. That's just the normal price. But it's, you have to buy six of them and you get the benefit of buying six of them for $27, when in a week ago six of them would have been. [00:20:41] Speaker A: You could have just bought them. [00:20:42] Speaker C: 13, 14, $15. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:44] Speaker C: It's crazy. [00:20:46] Speaker B: It is. I mean, you know, the example I gave about the Hungry Jacks, I don't know whether they're using, you know, camera and facial and, you know, recognition software, but you can see where it could lead to. And I think I was more upset that, you know, some kid who was working their way through uni now doesn't have that spot, you know. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:07] Speaker B: But anyway, it's. [00:21:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Very quick. [00:21:10] Speaker B: That's what I meant earlier about going into the woods. [00:21:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Before we get onto actual, actual photography topics and street photography. Actually, I'll do, I'll do, I'll do some comments off everybody but this comment off Lucinda Goodwin Hey, Lucinda, what is up? She says I've used AI to create an automated booking system to sync to my Apple calendar via Google Sheets. Well, that's a cool use of AI. It's very good. [00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:34] Speaker C: And then you could just use AI to do the shoot. You won't even have to do anything. No, I'm kidding. All right, I'll just say good morning to whoever's here. Philip Johnson. Good morning. Rodney Nicholson. Good to see you. Julie Powell. What is up? David Mascara from San Francisco. I was actually just looking at a couple of Jonas's San Francisco. What's it called? The Golden Gate Bridge. [00:21:57] Speaker A: Golden Gate, yeah. He must have gone way back down the Instagram. [00:22:00] Speaker C: I go way back. Went deep. I was just looking at that. And I was looking at my pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge a while ago and yours are way better. Well done. It's hard to find a cool angle of that. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:16] Speaker C: Who else is here? Craig Alif, Paul. Good morning. Robert Varner, East Coast Photography. Good morning, shooters from Reigning Foster. Anyone want to buy an XE5? You're selling your XC5? [00:22:30] Speaker B: Justin wants one. He really wants one. [00:22:32] Speaker C: It didn't fit in my hand properly though. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Get over it. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Get a grip. Literally get a grip. [00:22:37] Speaker C: Yeah, buy a grip. Paul says supermarkets were shifting to electronic pricing on the shelves so they could adjust prices according to the time of day. A bit like Uber. Oh, surge pricing. Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker B: That's not terrible. [00:22:48] Speaker C: Can't do that to us anyway. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, this show is brought to you by Lucky straps. Go to Luckystraps.com if you need a camera strap for your camera. They're the greatest camera straps ever made. We put a lot of work into them. We've been making them for 12 years here in Australia. It's me, it's Greg, Yelena, Jim, a whole bunch of people. We're photographers. We understand how to make a comfortable strap for while you're out shooting. Not just one that looks cool on the Internet or in a box on a camera shop wall. So if you want an actual camera strap that'll last you a lifetime, go to Lucky Straps.com and see what we've got. And if you like them, you can check out with the code Greg. And then maybe one day, if Greg gets enough sales, we'll send him to Japan maybe. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:33] Speaker C: Anyway, just go back to Japan forever. Not just for a trip. Yeah, yeah, that wouldn't be so bad. [00:23:41] Speaker B: To be fair, I could. I could quite eas. Adapt to being forced to live in Japan the rest of My life. I'll miss Sash, of course, but, you know, there's face time for that. Do you think. [00:23:50] Speaker C: Do you think you could live? [00:23:54] Speaker B: I have, yeah. I. I've often sort of daydreamed, amused that idea that. And then I sort of settled on, well, maybe, you know, we'd buy a house there. Buy a cheap country farmhouse and, you know, slowly do it up or something and go and live there six months of the year and come and live here and then rent it out or, you know, that sort of stuff. Or we could go Harvey's. Justin. [00:24:15] Speaker C: Go Harvey's. [00:24:16] Speaker B: Get a big enough house, room for the baby, you know. [00:24:19] Speaker C: Yeah, well, if you babysit. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Oh, babysit. I love kids. So does Sash. [00:24:24] Speaker C: Jonas, have you ever lived. Lived abroad while you've been traveling? Have you? No. [00:24:30] Speaker A: No. No. So I've. I mean, the longest I've been away out of Australia, any one time I think was like 10 weeks, which feels like quite a while when you're away, you know, doing new things. But no, I've never lived like actually permanently anywhere outside of Melbourne. I mean, for as long as my. My conscious memory has existed, I've not lived outside of Melbourne. [00:24:51] Speaker B: So you were born in Germany. What part of Germany were you born in? [00:24:56] Speaker A: Small town called Detmold. In like, not best. Fine. So it's the northwest, sort of close to the Dutch border between like, be the Fed and Dortmund Hanover. Like if you made a triangle of those three cities, it's roughly in the middle there. Yeah. [00:25:13] Speaker B: And at what age did you come to Australia? [00:25:17] Speaker A: Like infant. Less than almost one, I think, or. Yeah. So we can. I was born in 99 and we came here in 2000. So. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you don't mind me asking, you know what. What was the incentive for your folks to come to Australia? [00:25:30] Speaker A: So my dad is Australian, my mum's German, and then I guess just he was working here and yeah, for whatever reason, my parents thought, you know, we'll come here instead of staying there. I think the idea was to, you know, go back and forth and trial it. But then I guess once you sort of build up like a network and you have your roots sort of tied in one place, it's. It's easy to just stay here. And I think especially when you have [00:25:53] Speaker B: kids, when you have kids in the game, you know. [00:25:56] Speaker A: Yeah, of course I've always toyed with the idea of like, would I like to go spend a year in Germany or something, but, you know, do you have. [00:26:05] Speaker C: So does that mean you have a passport for the. Is that how that works. You have citizenship there as well, so you could. It would be very easy for you to live there for. For a while. [00:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I have a German passport and an Australian one. So I can anywhere in like, the greedy. I can. [00:26:19] Speaker C: Oh, and you've got this. [00:26:21] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:26:21] Speaker C: You've got the secret pass that. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty good. It's not bad. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Yep. [00:26:27] Speaker C: Yeah. That's really cool. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Especially now I've been seeing, you know, they're introducing, I think, four Australians soon. I'm not sure when. You know, it's like a. An esta that costs money as well to go to the eu. Similar to, like the US or I think New Zealand. [00:26:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:41] Speaker A: So all that sort of stuff, I just. I get there. I showed my passport and it's like, there is. They just say, yep, you know, in you go. That's the drink. [00:26:50] Speaker C: Up in the stupid long lines where they. [00:26:52] Speaker A: No, exactly. [00:26:53] Speaker C: Fingerprints and all that stuff and. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a local. [00:26:55] Speaker B: I'm a local. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:57] Speaker C: Yeah, just walk on through. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah, nice. [00:26:59] Speaker B: And you said you go back home to your birth home in Germany, you know, every sort of year or two. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:07] Speaker B: What is that like for you? That. That kind of, you know, do you return and everything feels a bit familiar, you know, Are you at that stage where you kind of. You. You can adapt to both lifestyles? [00:27:18] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting. I think so. I'd always, obviously, just go back when I was younger mainly to, like, our hometown, like where I was born, visit, so grandparents, auntie, uncle, cousins, and that was always very much the same. And it was always nice to, you know, you'd go somewhere overseas. It's exciting, but, you know, sort of what to expect. And then maybe if we're lucky, you know, five or six days, go somewhere else. That's like new as a part of a holiday, so that we're all doing something nice together and going back sort of to the hometown always felt very familiar and comfortable. But then as I've gotten older, I'm realizing, you know, now my cousins are the same age as me as well. Basically. They're all moved out, they're all gone. I've had relatives pass away and it's. You come back there and it's no longer quite the same. I think going back as an adult is very different as well. [00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker A: I don't know. Yeah, it's just like a different sort of perspective on it all. Because I would go there as a kid and just think of it as so matter of fact, it's like, of Course I'm going back to Germany to see my grandparents. You know, who doesn't do that? And then going back now. So the last maybe 10 years, I guess that I haven't been going back as regularly, but whenever I have been there, it's been almost a bit melancholy in a way. Yeah. Really a bit. [00:28:31] Speaker B: Like, see the changes. [00:28:32] Speaker A: It's not quite the same because it's. It's. I guess, you know, it's like when you see that your parents are getting older and you see that your grandparents are getting older and in some cases, dying, and you've got, you know, relatives that just aren't. Yeah, I guess things change, and I guess that's. Yeah. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it's different. Is it? Because, you know, we take for granted when we have our family all together and, you know, in the one place or in the one country. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Like, I think all of our family are in Adelaide, Victoria, South Australia. Victoria and Tasmania. Between Sash and I, it's all very easily accessible. We get updates on everything that's going on. We see people regularly when, you know, traveling around. But when it's those sort of big jumps in time, like one or two years between visits, you know, so much must change. You know, even just little things. I painted the wall a different color or, you know, something else has changed in the town. A building's been demolished that you love to photograph. And now there's this ugly hotel or something you. It's that. It's that kind of re. Acclimatizing to what's new in this space. I think that's really fascinating. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. I think in the same way that I know I mentioned in sort of the little about me thing that I wrote to you, you know, I would often lack the inspiration in taking photos in Melbourne because I felt like nothing was changing. And it was almost like I've just photographed all these things so many times. It's all very familiar. But, you know, then someone would point something out to me, or maybe, you know, I have someone. Friends or whoever that would come into the city with me and say, holly, I don't remember this building being here. I think, you know what, actually, sometimes things do change and you just have to sort of revisit it maybe with that lens of I'm just a tourist in my own city and I'm. I'm looking at what's exciting and new again. [00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Which, again, sorry, it's a bit of a tangent, but, yeah, going back to Germany every, like every year, every two years or Whatever. You're obviously a lot more aware of what's changed. So it's easy to see what's exciting and new and what's sort of familiar. Whereas I think being here, it's always. Everything feels familiar in a way. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've talked about this a lot, Justin, haven't we? Where, you know, when you travel, you feel like all of a sudden you're seeing the world differently compared to when you're at home. [00:30:35] Speaker C: You know, I take way better photos when I travel than when I'm here. Like, it's, it's completely different. And I haven't. I figured out it's. It's essentially, it's curiosity and, and novelness that sparks my creativity. So I can get that here. If I see something I've never seen before. So if I get to go to something, the inner workings of like a cool business that does stuff that I've never. I didn't even know that that was a thing or that how they made this thing or their process or whatever that sparks the same kind of creativity. But I haven't figured out how to like, get around that or manufacture that. People often say, you know, you just need to put the work in. Into shooting your hometown and, and stuff. And I just can't. I can't turn that part of my brain on walking around Bendigo. I just can't. All I see is like, what I've seen for the entire. My entire life that I've lived here. And it's the same and it never looks good and the light's pretty average and the people don't want to be photographed. And that's, that's my own. And I know that someone else could walk around here and create great work. It's. It's a me thing. It's not a Bendigo thing. But that's how I feel and I can't get past it. [00:31:54] Speaker B: Sounds. It almost sounds to me, Justin, like you need to participate in a street level photography. Street photography workshop. I will teach you how to. [00:32:04] Speaker C: I'd like to see you do a street level photography workshop in Bendigo and see. [00:32:08] Speaker B: You're on. [00:32:09] Speaker C: We've got our own. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Can we bring the puppy? [00:32:12] Speaker C: Yeah, we can bring the puppy. We've got our own set of characters up here. That, that would make that quite interesting and difficult. We've got our own Claude, and it's not Anthropic's Claude, it's Bendigo's Claude. It's different. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Anyway, is Moon man still around? [00:32:26] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Moon man is still around causing havoc. Jonas, how do you. Do you have any other than what you just said where you said this is. Someone points out a new thing, a building that's changed or whatever have you? Like, so you've obviously, you've created work all over the world when you've traveled and it's great. [00:32:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:44] Speaker C: But you do shoot a lot in Melbourne. Is there some technique that you use to kind of fire up your creativity in Melbourne? [00:32:54] Speaker A: I wish there was because I feel like sometimes I become very aware of the fact that I haven't touched my camera in like close to a month. And I think, God, I need to get out and take photos of something. You know, sometimes it's just as simple as I'm gonna go out and just force myself to take photos. And then as I'm doing it, I'm noticing more and more. And it's just like getting into that flow state. Almost just doing the thing makes me more willing to then keep doing the thing, I guess, because I'm very much the same where I find when I'm somewhere new, like overseas in particular. But even just like new, like I went to Brisbane in June and even there I felt this. It's just being somewhere new, you feel like everything is so worth photographing. And my photos become so much better because I feel like I'm hyper aware of everything around me and I' noticing all these cool angles and cool lights and shadows and the people seem different and exciting. Whereas in Melbourne, it's very much like you said, it feels like I don't want to take photos of anyone. And everything that I do want to photograph, I've already photographed 100 times before. So it is, yeah, very much just to me, like, get out, take the photos. And then, you know, Maybe I take 20 photos and realize, okay, this sort of lighting looks cool or this is a spot that I've noticed explored that much in detail. So, yeah, you know, sometimes zooming in, zooming out, looking at small details. So even just like a couple of weeks ago, I recently posted some photos from just like corners of buildings and, you know, some cars going by and stuff like that. And it was just a really nice sunny day. And I thought, I'm just going to see if I can find anywhere where sort of the light and shadows mix in an interesting way. And then that became like my little mini project for the day. And as I started doing it, I was noticing more and more corners where that sort of looked interesting and looked like it was. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:34:38] Speaker A: yeah, exactly. [00:34:40] Speaker B: I. I like to, I think you talked about, you know, you'll find a scene where there's good light and you'll look for the detail and you'll try different vantage points. I call that kind of working the scene. You know, sometimes, especially in street photography, you'll arrive at a location and the light is good and the flow of traffic is good and the elements around you are good, and you'll just walk and work that scene. And sometimes, you know, I'll go into the city intending to do a walk around the city, and I'll be stuck out the front of Flinders Street Station for an hour because the light is just so damn beautiful. And there's, you know, it's the spring carnival and there's people in, in. In suits and hats and, you know, like it's. It. Yeah, it's really interesting and you get stuck there because it's just too good, you know? [00:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I can 100 relate to that as well. Sort of, you know, you, you have sometimes an expectation of, I guess what you want to go and photograph the day, spend the day photographing. But yeah, like, for me it was the. Is it the, the Queen Street Bridge or the, you know, the main bridge between sort of the art gallery and Fed Square? I always forget the name of the bridge, but for me it was that the other day I went over there and just. [00:35:41] Speaker B: Isn't it. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yes, that's the one. And I was just. I probably spent like 45 minutes just taking photos through the, like, round shapes on the side of the bridge. Yeah. Like different people and boats and stuff. And I thought, this is really cool. And I just sort of kept going up and down the bridge and as the lighting was changing, it was looking different every few minutes. Yeah, nice. I can relate to that for sure. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Jonas, let's change tech a little bit. I do want to come back to you, obviously, to your street photography in a little bit. [00:36:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:09] Speaker B: First, I always like to find out where a couple of things. Firstly, where did the inspiration come from to be a photographer and who were the motivating figures in your life? Or was this something you just discovered and took up on your own? [00:36:24] Speaker A: Yeah, interesting. I think early on it was very much sort of the typical, I guess, Gen Z childhood dream of I want to become a YouTuber. That was sort of the. A big motivating factor early on. So I, I got the camera and I thought, I'm just going to film myself doing things with my friends and it'll be cool and everyone's going to want to see this. And then I guess because I had the camera anyway. It was like, I'm documenting this on video, I'll take some photos as well. So that I guess the inspiration was just sort of having the camera and having the means to do it, like photography at all. But then as I started going back even further. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Sorry, Sorry, Jonah. I just go back even further like, you know, did your cat. Did your parents or family give you a gifted you a camera one day? Did you nick one of your parents cameras or did that photography not start so early for you? School influences really? [00:37:17] Speaker A: No, I don't. So neither of my parents were like photographers or really did anything beyond family photos. When you're on holiday. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I don't. I don't think there were many people around me that were really like actively photographing and like photographers as such. I think it was, it was very much like the social media and Internet influence on me. Probably more so. [00:37:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. [00:37:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [00:37:41] Speaker C: So and then you went out and got your own camera. Bought your own camera or. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was Nikon, Nikon D5600 that I got when I was. I used to work at the paddle boats at Emerald Lake out in East Melbourne, if you know about those. Oh yeah, so yeah, that was the. The fruits of my labor were the. Was the Nikon D5600 and the kit. [00:38:06] Speaker C: Twin lens kit or just one. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a 35 millimeter 1.8 and a 18 to 55. [00:38:13] Speaker C: That's actually, that's good. Most people just end up with the 8 into 55 and then the. Whatever the other one is. 55 to 55. Yeah, yeah. So getting a prime in there, that's. That's awesome. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. Someone at the. I think it was Ted's cameras advised me about that and then I had no understanding of what the F stop even meant. So I just, I thought, you know, why do I need this lens? [00:38:34] Speaker B: It's. Neither does Justin. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Don't forget 18 to 55. So. [00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I've already got that in the range. What would I use it for? Stupid camera guy. Now. Well done. Ted's cameras to push you to get the timelines. That's awesome. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Go prime. Love that. [00:38:51] Speaker C: I'm actually, I'm looking on your, your YouTube channel at the moment. So. Tell me, tell me. Yeah. Hey, one of your videos says 18,000 views. Yeah. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that one did. All right. That was. I've been saying for the last five years that I wanted to make a, you know, part two of that. I've just never got around to it. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Do it, do it. So fulfill that YouTuber dream. [00:39:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:14] Speaker A: What. [00:39:15] Speaker C: What made you stop? I think your last video was maybe three years ago. Roughly what made you stop making videos? Did you just get too busy with. With life or what? [00:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah, partly, I guess. I don't know. I just felt like I wasn't doing as much that was worth filming and, you know, making videos of. But I think in retrospect, there definitely have been plenty of things that I could have made fun videos of. And it's. It's always very much been the sort of thing that I feel like I'm making those videos for myself, almost like a visual diary, because I feel like no one's watched my videos more than I have. And I just love going back and thinking this was a photo shoot that I did now five years ago. And I look back and I think it's so funny to see, like, how differently I did that sort of thing then than I probably would now. Yeah. And I kind of. I wish that I had filmed more in the last few years because I feel like there have been a few turning points for me in terms of my, I guess, visual style and, you know, the subject matter and everything. And I feel like they would have been interesting to see those points documented a bit more concretely on video. But, yeah, I think I've had a few friends push me recently to try and get me back to make videos again. So. Yeah. [00:40:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think you should. [00:40:27] Speaker C: What. So what was that? What was the biggest thing? What was the hardest part about the process? What was the thing that. That made it difficult? [00:40:38] Speaker A: I. I was going to say the editing, but to be honest, the editing was always fun as well. So probably just having to be out. And in a way, I feel like it somewhat detracted from what I was doing because I would be worrying about filming it as much as I was just being there and doing it. [00:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker A: But especially when I was fighting myself, you know, I'm trying to experience something as well as take photos of it as well as film it, as well as sort of talk in a way that I think is interesting. I think it was just. It would almost become too much to the point where I'd be like, well, now I haven't even enjoyed the thing that I came here to do. So I think it was always easy with other people. If I had friends that could help me with filming and maybe help me with even prompting me to say, film this. This looks cool, or this is worth talking about. But I Think it was just that sort of overload of there are too many things that I'm worried about. So if I want to go out and take good photos, I can't do that and film at the same time. [00:41:30] Speaker C: That. That was the big. The. The big hurdle for me was that sort of. It pulls you out of the situation and it does feel like more work than just doing it, than just going and doing the thing. Yeah, I did have trouble with that. And then I've been. I'm in the same boat. I've been meaning to get back into it and do something and I just can't sometimes just can't get myself through that. But the easiest way that I've seen and the videos that I found the easiest to make, where if it was just doing some shooting, just doing the POV thing and just putting it on there and then not even worrying about anything to do with the video until later. You can always talk over it if you need to fill in some gaps or. Some of the videos I posted, like, there was tons of silence and stuff in them and people didn't seem to care. I watch. I watch a YouTube channel called Walk Like Alice. Have you ever heard of them? [00:42:29] Speaker A: No, I'm not familiar with them. [00:42:31] Speaker C: A UK couple, Jeff Askoff. Jeff and I can't remember his wife's name, but they both shoot. They both shoot Leica. They take these amazing street photographs over there around the beach, and they go to, like, these, I don't know, all sorts of dog shows and horse shows and things like that. And they just capture people doing their thing and they'll just have the camera on and they won't say a word. They'll do a bit of an intro at the start of the video and then it's just them just walking around and interacting from the point of view of the camera and just taking photos. And then the photos come up, obviously, and that's it. And it's like, yeah, there's. There's so many different ways to create that kind of content and I love watching those kind of videos. It doesn't have to be someone presenting to me about, oh, we're here and we're doing this thing and I'm doing that. And it's like sometimes you're happy just to sort of absorb for 20 minutes someone taking images. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I think so. Similar. I guess one of my favorite sort of photography youtubers to watch and even just have on in the background sort of for that sort of thing is Tio Crawford. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him as a photographer and YouTuber, he does a lot of. He. He will sort of film, I guess, with like a pov. Either it's on the camera or in his head as well, like out taking photos. But I think the audio is often just like commentary done in post, which is nice because you can tell he's just doing the thing to the fullest. And then afterwards, sometimes we'll chip in and be like, oh, here is. You know, I. I thought the lighting here looked interesting, so I took the photos like this, this and this, which is, I guess, easier for him as well. But it's nice to sort of just watch the process as it's happening rather than have someone always be, like you said, as well, like, you know, here I am doing this. It feels very authentic in that. In that sense, which is nice. [00:44:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I'll have to check out some of his stuff. He's. Yeah. Photographer and filmmaker, based in Austria. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:33] Speaker C: Wow. Very cool. Shoots a lot of film. [00:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:38] Speaker C: Do you shoot film? [00:44:40] Speaker A: I do. Not a crazy amount, but I feel like sometimes I'll get the motivation. I go out and buy, you know, three or four rolls of film and then shoot them over the course of maybe a month or two. And then other times, like, I've had a roll of film sat in my camera now for the last probably three months and it's probably half photographed. So, yeah, we'll see. [00:45:00] Speaker C: I do exactly the same thing. Just it's bursts and then you're like. And then there'll be one sitting there for ages and, you know, just sort of like, I gotta finish that roll off and then get it. I've got three. I've got three rolls sitting here that need to be sent away and then. But there's a half a roll in a camera and I'm like, oh, when I finish that one, I'll send them all away. But these are like, one of these have been sitting here for three months. [00:45:20] Speaker A: And I'm like, yeah, okay. [00:45:21] Speaker C: It's just. Yeah. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, it's funny, I find that I think I've got no film photos. Oh. So the most film photos that I have of any one subject is like the outside of Halide Supply in Fitzroy. Because the amount of times I would be there and just think, I've got one or two photos to take and quickly take a photo of the street there. So I've got so many photos of that sort of that area of Melbourne where the film shops are that I [00:45:44] Speaker B: used to go to. [00:45:46] Speaker C: That's Very funny. [00:45:47] Speaker B: It is, it is. So, you know, rolling with the time you. Did you study art subjects in school at all or. Or were you more sort of academically focused? [00:46:01] Speaker A: No, so I was. I've always followed a very, like, STEM focused pathway. I did the sort of. I did biochemistry, physics, methods, English. [00:46:12] Speaker C: Nice. [00:46:12] Speaker A: German and pe, I think, in high school. And then I went on and I've done a Bachelor of Science and then a master's degree also in science. I guess I finished last year. So, yeah, I've never had any professional creative. Thank you. No like professional or academic creative background, but I think it's almost because of that that it's sort of been the outlet that I've been drawn to because it's so, like, it's in contrast to whatever else I've done in my life, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:42] Speaker B: That's really interesting. And is your day job in the sciences or how do you. What. What does your week look like? [00:46:49] Speaker A: I wish. So, I mean, I finished end of last year, my second degree now and I've been looking for work in my science field since, but I've still just been working the same place that I've been working for the last, like four years or three and a half years now. I did do a bit of freelance while I was studying as well, sort of end of my bachelor's and inter, probably like a year before starting my masters. I had a few years off between and sort of just worked a few different jobs, but did freelance photography here and there as well and I did enjoy that, but I found I was never really photographing what I wanted to be and then it became too much of a chore in a way, and it was. Yeah, it's hard to find, like, you know, the paid gigs, taking photos of the things that I wanted to be taking photos of. I think the. The closest I got was selling a few photos to some councils here and there, which was nice because it was, you know, I had gone out a nice hike, taken a cool photo of a mountain and then they said, we want this for advertising. I say, cool, you can have it. But I mean, doing like events and that sort of thing was never really what I was drawn to. So, yeah, didn't really explore that sort of professional photography avenue too much. [00:47:59] Speaker C: Not. Not something that was ever really a goal or on your radar or anything. [00:48:03] Speaker A: I mean, like, definitely at times I sort of thought, you know what, I'm really going to, you know, knuckle down on this and try to get this going. But I just Think it ultimately then just detracted from the enjoyment that I had for it too much and I just didn't want it to become, you know, just another thing that I have to do because I think the, the real enjoyment that I find of it, finding photography is that it's something that I can do. You know, I have time off and I get to go out and take photos rather than I now have to go out and photograph these events and then have to worry about editing within a time frame and you know, going back and forth with people about touch ups and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, just for my own sake and the enjoyment that I get out of it, I just wanted to keep it sort of a passion project thing, I guess. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair enough. Because it's that fine line between, you know, a business venture and a creative pursuit, isn't it? Yeah, and I get that. And I often fear that, you know, doing paid gigs would exactly the same as what you've just said would detract. But I think more than anything I was probably making excuses for myself that not so much that I didn't want to do them, but I didn't feel like I had the. I didn't have a formal photography education other than art school. I did a year. Yeah. But yeah, it's just that it's an interesting kind of line that we cross sometimes and it either feels good or it doesn't, you know. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:27] Speaker B: And you know, one day you might find the genre that you think, oh, actually I can dabble in this. You know, you offshoot into things and you'll dabble and you'll go, actually there's a calling for this. Maybe I could take up that calling. You know, we'll see. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Yeah. There have still been times in between where I've had people like offer, I guess ask me for rates or wanting to do shoots about certain things. And I've, I've definitely explored like I've helped someone with like a clothing brand once and things like that that were different and fun to do as like here and there things, but never really found any one sort of niche where I was like, oh, I could really see myself doing this. Which I think from the business side is hard because I feel like you sort of have to market yourself as a XYZ photographer who does, you know, headshot portraits or does weddings or does whatever it may be. And it's hard to just be like, oh, well, I'm someone who likes to take photos and can probably take a decent enough photo for you if you need it. But hasn't really specialized in any sort of one niche. [00:50:26] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's definitely hard to get started if you don't either go after a niche or service a particular type of client. So it's either like, hey, I'm. Yeah, I do headshots. I'm great at him. Here's all my headshots. Or you go, I can do any type of photography you want, but I live in small towns or I this small town and I just do that area. Or I. Yep. I don't know. I do any type of photography you want. But for this type of person or this type of business or this type whatever, I do any type of photography you want for real estate agents or something. But it's like just. Yeah, if you are just a generalist and you're trying to get started, it's really hard to get a foot in the door because people just want something that is. Is simple to understand. [00:51:13] Speaker B: They're like, yeah, and fits their needs. [00:51:15] Speaker C: It fits my needs. Yeah. This problem will solve this problem. I need. Need a washing machine fix. I'm going to ring the washing machine repair place. Not the electrical repair place or the whatever. You know, it's like, it just makes more sense. [00:51:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:29] Speaker C: Especially if you're newer and it's. It is, it's tough. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker A: I think part of it as well was definitely just like a sense of imposter syndrome. I mean, even like when. When people did ask me if I would be willing to do shoots, you know, paid shoots or whatever, I almost felt like, oh, I feel bad asking for money for this because I'm not certain that I am going to be able to produce something that's good enough or like, would I be willing to pay this if I was the one receiving this product? Something that I still struggle with even now, where it's like you come through waves of. I look at my work and I think, God, I feel like my photos are just not as good as I want them to be. Or I've gone somewhere to take photos and they've just turned out like rubbish or whatever. But yeah, especially for that professional side. It was something that I struggled with when people would come to me just in regards of, oh, I feel bad asking for money or I feel like I shouldn't be because I feel like I'm not. I'm not formally trained. I don't have enough sort of proof to show that I can do this thing. [00:52:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, yeah, I hear you very loud and clear. I'm A gold card member of the imposter syndrome club. How do you deal with that when it happens in your creative life? You know, when, when you start to say, oh, I don't know if my images are where they're up to, how do you manage that? [00:52:46] Speaker A: It's funny because I think sometimes I look back at my photos and I think, wow, like I've taken some great photos and I love them and I love hanging them up on my walls and I love seeing them and knowing that I created something that I, and hopefully other people also enjoy seeing. But then other times it's just like I've never taken a good photo in my life and I don't know what I'm doing and I feel like I've just got no sort of creative inspiration or anything. But that sort of ebbs and flows. I think it definitely helps, like I've got obviously friends in the photography space and you can sort of get, I guess, feedback from them. And sometimes it helps when I've got a photo that I may be a bit, you know, 50, 50 on and I say, oh, do you think this looks any good? And you know, people say, wow, that looks amazing. I think, oh, okay, you know, thank you. But intrinsically, I'm, I'm not sure because I, that I wish I had like a definite answer, but it definitely still comes back. And I will look at some photos and think, oh, why couldn't I have, you know, photographed this place better? Or why did I? Why have other people taken photos at the same place and made them look so nice? And I went there and it just didn't work. [00:53:48] Speaker B: And yeah, yeah, yeah, I found, I found following Melbourne street photographers, yeah, I'll see their photos and I'll go, oh, that's Melbourne. Oh, how did you do? Like, and I just, yeah, it's so much better. [00:54:02] Speaker C: I thought about this a lot when I used to shoot weddings and when I was going from like the brand new wedding photographer who really only deserved to be charging not much, and I was charging not much and I looked up to, you know, I was at the bottom of the, of the pecking order, you know, and I was happy to fill that place and work my way up as I got better. But the thing that I always thought about was that I needed to have. I didn't realize this till, till sort of five or more years in a push and a pull with feeling one feeling like exactly like what you're saying where I'm like, I am shit compared to everybody else. This work is crap. But I equally had to be able to feel at some points like, wow, I'm getting really good at this. This is a great photo. I can't believe we pulled that off today or whatever. And if you don't have both, it gets very demoralizing. Or if you only ever think, man, I'm amazing, you're definitely leaving growth on the table and you're probably not looking critically enough at your work and you're just swatting around thinking, geez, I'm awesome. And you don't realize there's a whole world out there of people that are way more awesome than you. [00:55:18] Speaker A: And it's. [00:55:18] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's not getting stuck on either side for too long because you either, you either stop growing and you become mediocre or whatever, or on the other side, you get sort of just disillusioned and depressed with your work and you. And you're not excited to get out there and shoot or feel like you're making any progress. And it was really. It took me a while to figure out that I needed to try and actively work on those. Sometimes it just happened naturally for like the first five years. And then I would realized I was in different moods where I either felt like I was great or felt like I was shit. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:53] Speaker C: And then. Yeah. So anyway. [00:55:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:56] Speaker C: I don't know if that makes sense. [00:55:57] Speaker A: You made about the sort of like, needing to be critical sometimes to force growth, because I think you. It is easy to get stuck into, like, the, you know, the Dunning Kruger effect if you learn a little bit and then suddenly you think you've got it all figured out and then losing that ability to sort of look at your work and say, how could I have done this better? I've definitely had points like that in the past as well where I think, oh, this is it. Now I've mastered photography, this is as good as it's ever going to get. [00:56:22] Speaker C: I'm the greatest. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Everything that I've made is perfect. But then, you know, sometimes it's as simple as seeing someone else's photos or it's even just looking back at them a week later and thinking, actually, these aren't all that. There's still room for improvement. Yeah. [00:56:40] Speaker C: Do you ever look back at some of your older work and think, man, that was a really good shot. Like, like it's, it's more. I'm more impressed with it now than I was at, at the time. Like, I was. I was doing some good work then. Do you ever do that? [00:56:54] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I Maybe even just like, as simple as editing. But I think sometimes I look at old photos and I think this was a great photo, but I just didn't, like, edit it well enough or I didn't sort of see the vision. It was almost like I. There were. There's inklings of what I think is a good photo, and then I look back on it later, and I think I can touch this up now and sort of even just crop it differently or, you know, change the colors a little bit, and suddenly it becomes, like, completely new. Which is why I. I love going back through my old, like, travel archives as well. And I will share a lot of old photos on my account because of that. We can just repost old photos, but with new edits on them. Because it's almost like there are moments that have. That I photographed where I think this is like the photography style that I'm doing right now. But I did it by accident here in the past, I think I've just accidentally taken this photo that I now really love. [00:57:48] Speaker B: Yeah, interesting. [00:57:49] Speaker A: So you. [00:57:50] Speaker C: So you think that you were. You were sort of. Your style was accidentally popping up through the years, in the earlier years, and. And then you did. You didn't realize it then, but now looking back, you're like, oh, there it is. Oh, there it is. And. [00:58:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:05] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [00:58:06] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:58:07] Speaker A: So it's like, I think when I. That you mentioned before, like, San Francisco, that was. That was all on the D5600 still. [00:58:13] Speaker B: I hadn't. [00:58:14] Speaker A: Hadn't got a frame camera yet. Yeah. [00:58:17] Speaker C: Now I feel even worse. They're great shots. I. I had a Q3. They're nowhere near as good, man. [00:58:27] Speaker A: So I had that. And it was. I look back on it, and I think that whole trip to sort of. It was California sort of. I went to LA and San Francisco and then like, Yosemite National Park. And I look on most of the photos and it's very much just like, eye level. I've seen the obvious landmark, whether it be Golden Gate Bridge or, you know, Half Dome, Yosemite, whatever, just take the photo and then sort of leave it at that. But, yeah, so photos like this one, for example, the one you've just pulled up where I've sort of added the depth of the chain and that sort of thing. It's like. [00:58:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:57] Speaker A: And the reflection. You know, I look at the cool photo now, but I would have just done that and sort of thought, oh, you know, click one photo. Not thought anything of it and probably not looked at it for a while. And then I look at it now. And I think actually it's. You know, that's better than most of my work at the time. And I've sort of by accident, just taking this photo that I think is still quite. [00:59:14] Speaker B: I don't think it is an accident, though. No, I would. I would challenge that. You know, I get it because I. I have that happen as well. I get why you're calling it an accident. I think that you've. It's more likely that you've always had a good eye for composition and unknowingly, instinctively, you framed a shot that felt good, that looked good. You know, it looked right. You couldn't tell why. It's that thing again. You know, you couldn't. You couldn't really say why at the time. But looking back, you can see that it's well framed. It's got great. You know, it's got depth, it's got complexity due to the reflection. Like, there's so much going on in here. [00:59:49] Speaker C: Even just like the choice to go vertical on a bridge, you know, like, it's a bridge. You should go horizontal to get the bridge in, you know, like the choice to go vertical, frame it with the chains, making sure you didn't crop off the top of the towers in the reflection. That would have been easy to do, especially if you were newer to things, to just be sort of focusing on the bridge, get a little reflection, but just miss the top. And then obviously, you didn't have control over this. But the fact that the clouds, the foggy, cloudy stuff is engulfing the second hours or pylons or whatever, like, it's a great photo. I just. Yeah, it's like. I saw it. I was like, oh, well done. So, yeah, you've gone way down this profile. Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:30] Speaker A: I like to. [01:00:31] Speaker C: I like to see the. I like to see the journey. Yeah. I just think that it's. And then it was. It was interesting to see how things. Yeah. Have changed with you, with the style. You know, lots of. Lots of night shots, lots of neon stuff. The Yosemite stuff is obviously. Just. How beautiful is that place, by the way? [01:00:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's unreal. I'm pretty devastated. I've lost the raw photos for this whole Yosemite raw photos are just gone somewhere. I'm not sure where, but I've. I've not been able to find them now for four or more years, so. [01:01:04] Speaker C: Oh, it's David. Mascara says the chains are gone now. So those photos are even more. [01:01:10] Speaker B: There you go. [01:01:11] Speaker C: Now something. It's documented rather than just a thing that Everyone else can look up and photograph. It's gone. Oh, I saw before too. David actually said I lived in K town. I can't pronounce this as an army brat in the early 60s. If I wasn't so afraid of flying, I'd love to go back. David lives in San Francisco. Yeah. [01:01:37] Speaker B: And just very quickly there's a couple of comments here from Julie I just want to touch on. Julie Powell. I love watching my old stuff too. So Julie Jonas here, she runs a YouTube channel. It's educational photography channel. She's an educator. She's also one of the BFOP workshop instructors and just prolific with her craft. Like just always taking photos, always doing different genres to, you know, for self improvement. And then she's had to say gotta go shortly. Got a shoot happening. We'll catch up the rest on replay. Thank you Julie. And happy birthday once again for yesterday. Julie, a lovely dinner out last night and you got to see the movie you wanted. So yeah, happy birthday and we'll catch up in bright in four weeks. Yay. [01:02:24] Speaker C: Yay. [01:02:28] Speaker A: I was just. [01:02:28] Speaker C: Sorry, I'm just, I'm scrolling up, I'm trying to get to like trying to get to, to through the vibe changing [01:02:36] Speaker A: a little bit I think especially when you sort of scroll through it like that. It's very obvious to see when I've sort of changed the editing style just from one post the next and then stuck with it for a while as well. [01:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. [01:02:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:49] Speaker B: And then we were talking recently the other night about on our Monday night random photography show. Weren't we talking about going back and re editing old photos? [01:03:00] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. Which is always fun because. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And it was like you were saying Jones, you sort of look back and go oh, okay, I can see why I did that now. But actually I'm going to change that and apply my modern sensibility and eye to it to make it. [01:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:03:16] Speaker B: Or different, you know, it doesn't have to be better. [01:03:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:19] Speaker B: I also like going through those. [01:03:20] Speaker A: How I would do it now. [01:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. But I also like going through my older photos and just remembering those experiences, especially my travels to Japan and you know. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:29] Speaker B: Going into state where as we talked about, you know, you get excited about the photography, you see things differently, you see more because it's not your usual run of the mill local area, you know. Yeah, I love going back. [01:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's definitely part of it. [01:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm curious, do you ever go back and look at. Look at old images that you kind of thought were mid. When you took them mid, but yeah, mid, you know, they're okay. [01:03:55] Speaker C: Yeah, you're too old to say mid, Gregor. There's a cut off for that sort of language. And I think we're past it. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Okay. All right. [01:04:05] Speaker B: Thanks, boss. Anyway, yeah, like, I'll go through, especially my Japanese holidays. I used to do this all the time. And I'd go back through them and go, oh, actually, why didn't I four star that or five star that in Lightroom when I was going through it the first time, you know, and it's because we start to. We learn how to see things differently. Our taste changes, the way we see the world changes. There's so many influences that I always, you know, I think it's really valuable to go back, if nothing, if for nothing more than to remember those times. Because, you know, we don't remember every moment. We pressed a shutter button. And out of the thousands and thousands of images we take, there's a core group that stick in our mind. But we don't remember every photo we took, especially from years ago. You know, digging them up. There's a lot of joy to be had there. [01:04:52] Speaker C: I think I saw you dug these up recently, these vending machine images from Japan. [01:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that was just another one of those. Like re edit of the same sort of re edit the photos with a new style, you know, try to make them look more like how I want them to look today. But. So coming back to your question, Greg, I think definitely, like, I will go back through archives as well sometimes, and there are photos that I've just not even looked at or not even considered being worth sort of editing or worth sharing or anything. But then they turn out to be some of my favorites or turn out to be, you know, something that I. I feel like I've overlooked. Especially like, I think I mentioned this earlier on. But like the smaller detail shots, I'll look back and I think when I go through, like a photo shoot, when I'm somewhere new, you know, the Golden Gate Bridge or whatever, it's like the obvious. This is the one that I'm going to edit now because it's exciting. It's the. It's the famous landmark and whatnot. But then there might be shots of just like the water or, you know, a random street corner that I've not thought of, you know, not really thought much of. But I think the composition itself just looks interesting. And I think it's those moments that I've, like, maybe forgotten that I've even photographed. Like you said that then I Think, oh, where was this and what was this? And that's sort of like that curiosity around it. [01:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that now. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Yep. [01:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:20] Speaker C: How's. How's your editing stuff? You sort of mentioned you edit. Re. Edited them in your. Your current style. Are you editing in Lightroom? And if so, can you like, can you quantify how your style has changed with, like, certain settings and things like that that you use? [01:06:38] Speaker A: Oh, so, yeah, I've been using Lightroom pretty much the whole time I've been taking photos or had a camera that shoots raws. I think a few big points were sort of when Lightroom would implement new tools to edit with was when I noticed that I was changing things sort of in my editing style. Early on, I used to always shift the. I've forgotten what they're called now, but like the very bottom sliders where it sort of changes the color calibration. And I think it would. Yeah, yep, yep. That was sort of what I went into because I was. I just loved those, like, orange sort of orange highlights and blue shadows. Like everyone's sort of the classic teal and orange color palette that was always very easily attainable with sort of those sliders. But then I think the biggest shift for me was when they added the color grading circles similar to like video grading. That was when I sort of realized you can fine tune those things a lot more. And then, yeah, I guess over the time like that I've. Now, the last few years, I've just shot enough similar things to the point where I've just got a whole list of presets that I've made for myself that I think, you know, if it's a subject that's in harsh light, I can use any number of these. And if it's a subject that's. That's slightly underexposed, I can use any number of these and then sort of just use those as the baseline. But then do the small tweaks here and there that are sort of creating those shifts in my style. But I think it's been less of a drastic style change over the last few years. I think the photos that I maybe took and edited 3 years ago aren't necessarily too different from what I would do now, but it's sort of going back maybe like five or six years where I think there's a lot of me figuring out style that I want to have and just learning those editing tools as well. Still where I, you know, I see a lot of difference in my work. Yeah. [01:08:25] Speaker C: Is any of your science Training, learning your. Your special skills? [01:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:33] Speaker C: Has any of that in any way crossed over to photography? Like learning about how light works and all of that stuff. Is there anything where you're like, wow, I kind of understand this on a different level now. [01:08:47] Speaker A: Not so much because. So I, I did do a bit of physics as well in my. My undergrad, but then I did like environmental science and that was my masters as well. I'd say the crossover there is more so the appreciation for just the world in general and sort of going out and spending more time outdoors and, you know, landscape photography was sort of the big thing that really kicked off my passion for photography in general. But yeah, just going out and appreciating things more in like the natural world and then realizing that there is a lot that's worth documenting and sort of, you know, photographing around, but not so much on, like the technical side of the overlap. It's more so that sort of understanding that these things are valuable and important and worth protecting and worth sharing as well, you know, and worth being photographed in hopefully a good way. [01:09:37] Speaker B: I think that's a wonderful crossover. You know, it's. Has a lot of humility in it, which is lovely because often we see people or we talk to people or we've done this ourselves where. Yeah, you have a completely different career or education purpose to the creative side of you. You know, it's almost like you're. You're almost bipolar in a way. You know, half of you is. Is doing this thing and the other half is this. It's interesting. [01:10:04] Speaker C: Well, I mean, when we had Nick Fletcher on and he always describes himself as. What does. He just either says he's not a photographer or he's a. I can't remember what he says. [01:10:15] Speaker B: But he does something about himself, doesn't he? [01:10:18] Speaker C: Yeah, he does a lot of paid professional shoots for adventure dirt bike riding. So like, you know, loading up dirt bikes and riding, writing across, you know. Yeah, basically. [01:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:32] Speaker C: So he'll go and photograph that for magazines and all sorts of stuff. Paid work, really good work, very much to a high professional standard. He's always had a day job and always refers to himself as not, you know, not a proper photographer, just a. Just a hack. Well, yeah, yeah. [01:10:52] Speaker A: Any stage does it take to be a proper photographer then? [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I want to subscribe. But, you know, his day job is so. So completely vastly different as well. Creative side, it's chalk and cheese, you know, it's quite amazing, really. I'm really keen to understand or know a little bit about you know, street photography in a place like Germany, somewhere in Germany. You know, you. Have you been able to get out and about on the streets in Germany and document? [01:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit. So I've, I've like been to Berlin a few times sort of with the street photography like intention I guess and just a few other cities here and there. I mean aside from the obvious, like the architectural differences that are exciting, you know, you see cool old buildings and cathedrals and whatnot. I think it's also just interesting to see, I guess like different people and sort of how, especially in Germany, I think the public is very historically has been very like privacy centered and you know, we didn't have Google street view in Germany until like 2022, 2023 because people were so resistant to it. Yeah. So that, you know, you can't go back any older than like a few years ago on street view, especially in Berlin as well because I guess they've lived under like a surveillance state for a while when sort of east and West Germany was still split. So it's been very much that sort of privacy concern. But I think it's interesting to see. Yeah. Just how different people are as well. And like in terms of. I always feel a little bit weird when I'm taking photos of people in the street, but I think I feel like especially weird doing it there because of that. [01:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you ever have to explain yourself or defend your actions? [01:12:38] Speaker A: Do people come up? Not really. I think it's probably shifted enough to the point where people are sort of just like, oh, okay. You know, it's, don't think twice about it. But because I'm aware of sort of that history of it, I still just feel a little bit off sometimes. I'm like, I don't know if these people are going to want to be in my photos. [01:12:55] Speaker B: I mean. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah. As far as the people go, that's, that's one thing to consider. But then the. Yeah, just like different buildings and like the different history around it. I think again it's, I look at things very differently there and I sort of appreciate the buildings and the sort of streets and scenes maybe because of the history that they have as well. So I mean more recently when I was in Germany last year, I just walked around sort of like an eastern block part of Berlin. So you have a lot of these sort of cookie cutter houses or like apartment blocks from like former GDR times that are like for all intents and purposes pretty ugly. Just like big concrete buildings, very like brutalist and yeah. Simple. But Just for some reason, because of, like, the way the lighting was and the way that they sort of had this amazing symmetry about them and because of, like, the history behind them as well. I just. I love taking photos there. It was like, this is awesome. But I guess I wouldn't go and take photos of, like, you know, community housing in Footscray somewhere because it just wouldn't be. It's like, this is just weird, but I would. There was like, oh, this is cool. Know there's a story behind this, but. And. [01:14:03] Speaker C: And what. So what is that? Because I feel that very strongly as well. Obviously not. When I travel, I don't usually have much context of the country I'm in because, you know, you've. You've been around there, you've grown up traveling there, you've got a fairly good understanding of what's happening. But. [01:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that. [01:14:22] Speaker C: That's a really good point. Like, you wouldn't if you transposed it to Melbourne. A lot of the stuff that I shoot when I'm traveling, I would not shoot in Melbourne. And I have a particular thing with people in Melbourne. I'm always reading faces, expecting them to be upset with being photographed. And I. The only thing I can put it down to is you do tend to be able to understand, read cues easier from a culture you've lived in your entire life, the country you've lived in. You know how everyone works and you don't, but you think you do. So you're sort of assuming things before they've happened that this person will probably feel like this or this, you know? But when I'm overseas, I just throw all that out the window and I smile at people and take their photos and. Yeah, I don't know if it's. I'm trying to figure out, again, is it something that I've just made up in my head or, you know, does Melbourne or Australia have a particular kind of. Sort of sense about being photographed that you don't get when you travel to, I don't know, other countries that I've been to. Vietnam. [01:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:35] Speaker C: Even parts of Indonesia and stuff like that. Yeah. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts around that? [01:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny because I. I've sort of thought the same things as, well, where. Especially Vietnam. Like, the example you just gave. When I was there, I had the sort of this feeling that I'd be walking around with the camera and people almost like, trying to be photographed or would be, like, excited the opportunity. And it's like people sitting down, they're like, oh, hi, camera. And then like they would just like wave you down and sort of smile and almost like pose or like let you take photos of whatever they're doing. I don't know if people here just wouldn't be as receptive to it. Or maybe we're just more reserved in general. But I too also just like assume that they don't want the photo taken or I just feel like I'm sort of not doing something that I shouldn't be. But it's like, oh, this person doesn't want me here is sort of my assumption straight away. And I don't know if it's because I am reading the faces or because of like a cultural thing or if it's just maybe I ignore that feeling when I'm somewhere new as well because I think I'm just sort of like the fly on the wall, you know, I'm not, I'm not from here, I'm not in this context. So I can just be here and document and be removed from it. Whereas when I'm in Melbourne, it's like, I'm just like a regular person here who's taking photos of other regular people doing their thing. Yeah, they probably don't want to be photographed. So I'm like, I. I don't know if I. Yeah, I find it hard to cross that line sometimes as well. I'm like, I'm here to take, you know, interesting photos, but I don't want to be just getting in your way and I don't want to be in your space if you don't want me here. So. Yeah, yeah, it's a Australian thing or. [01:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it might be that, you know, we're fairly, we are fairly heavily monitored in Australia. It's cameras everywhere. Cameras on cars, cameras and dashboards, cameras outside every shop. You know, we've seen. It's a horrible example, but recent crimes over the past few years where they've pieced together the offenders movements by getting the camera feeds from all the shops that were on that street and then, you know, tracking the person's movement and they can almost get piece together exactly what happened before they've even found the person. You know, it is interesting though. But you know, I. A couple, I've been doing this course at my son's school parenting course, thing about teenagers. And on my way there every afternoon I take my camera because it's, you know, it's golden hour. It's good light and Chapel street and Prahran and hot and Windsor and places like that. And a couple weeks ago I walked in and I put my camera down and sat down to start the round table conversation. And, and people say, oh, you're a photographer? I said, yeah, this is what I do. I'm a street photographer. And you know, and we got onto that subject of, of photography and privacy. It was all fine, it was all, you know, everyone was very accepting, but. And these are all educated people. Half the room didn't realize that it was legal to photograph people in public without their permission. [01:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:18:26] Speaker B: They all gasped when I said, yeah, you know, I'm a candid street photographer. I, you know, this is what I do. And, and that, yeah, they didn't, they didn't know that it's perfectly acceptable to walk, you know, to be in a public place, take a person's photo in a public setting, or even be in a public place and photograph into a private space. That, that itself is also perfectly legal. It's not always right and there's obviously you have a balance of morals and humility in that, but yeah, that these, you know, that this, this small population sample, fairly educated people didn't, didn't realize that photography in public was perfectly legal and fine. You know, so it's interesting and I don't know that there's necessarily a need to raise people's awareness of that, you know, that, that being the case, I don't know how you would go about it, but it's, it's funny because, you know, me standing there with a real camera taking a photo, yet we're on Chapel street and they've probably walked past 100 photos, 100 cameras, you know, in that, in the last sort of half an hour, hour, and just completely ignored the fact that every Tesla that went past had eight cameras on it. [01:19:36] Speaker C: You know, that sort of stuff, they're not getting posted to social media or whatever they think is going to happen with. [01:19:42] Speaker B: Or are they? [01:19:43] Speaker C: Well, here's, here's a super quick example of the difference. So I was staying in, in Bali for a little while, but it was away from the tourist areas, in a very sort of normal suburb, you would call it. Lots of houses, families and stuff like that from people that just live in Bali, Balinese people and some expats. But every morning I'd go for a walk and there was heaps of villas under construction, so there's construction workers everywhere. And I go for a walk with my camera and the construction workers, I'd smile at them, they'd smile at me. Next morning I'd smart them, they'd wave at me. The next morning they're like posing on top of the buildings with their like, tools and stuff like that. And they're tapping the other guy on the shoulder. So they'd be both looking over the. And they're up on like a three story building looking over the edge. So I'd take their photo and stuff. And it's just. If you pointed a camera at a tradie in Melbourne, you're not getting that kind of reaction at all while they're on a work site. Not at all. Yeah, there's. There's very much this sense and it's not, I'm not saying that they're in the wrong or anything, but they've got this feeling of like, if you're taking a photo of me, it's probably for a bad reason, whether you're trying to like catch me out doing something wrong or whatever. Whereas over there they were just like happy to. They were just like, hey, that guy's taking a photo, let's be in the photo. And it was. Yeah. [01:21:13] Speaker B: And to extend on that, I've been, I've been. Well, I've seen one fellow photographer be accosted by a tradie and it turned in, almost turned into a fistfight. And I've been approached by a tradie who demanded that I, you know, insisted I didn't have the right to. To photograph them in public. I was in public, they were in public. It's not like they were behind a fence on a job site. And she got quite upset. She was managing traffic and, you know, it was good light, good scene, take the shot. But yeah, she, she became quite agitated over me photographing her in public. I said, look, I'll delete the photo. It's not worth it to me, you know, but just so you know, for your own education, this is, this is perfectly acceptable. And yeah, it, you know, and, and people have all sorts of different reasons to not be photographed or videoed or surveilled, you know, and that's fine. But yeah, raising public awareness can be a tricky thing. [01:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny that. I mean, even as someone who takes photos of people in public from time to time and is aware of like the legality of it, I still find myself, like when there are cameras pointed at me or around me in public, I sort of like duck out of the way or I think, oh, you know, I don't want to be photographed myself. I think I'm just as guilty of hiding away as everyone else is. So, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's not like a conscious thing where I'm like, I just don't want to be in this photo. It's almost like instinctive. I just sort of think I don't want to be in the photo. [01:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? [01:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Yeah. [01:22:44] Speaker B: The same thing happened to me on one of those walks to my son's school for the parenting course. A guy walked up to me and he had like, a little old. It was a Minolta point and shoot, compact camera with it and a flash. And he walked up and. And took my photo and then we. He laughed and I laughed and. But it was so confronting and, you know, especially because he was. He was going Bruce Gilden style, like he was getting that camera right in my face and the flash was going off. And then we had a, you know, we had a laugh and had a chat and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's sort of. It's. It's momentarily confronting and I guess people. People's fight or flight kicks in when they're surprised by things. [01:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:19] Speaker B: That they don't expect. You know, when some people become agitated and aggressive and others go, oh, my God, that wasn't a good look. Or, you know. And you do get those positive reactions as well from people, but. Yeah, fewer. [01:23:31] Speaker A: I mean, sometimes it's like, even if the photo is like a. An awkward or unflattering photo, if it's the right person, they can have a laugh about it as well. [01:23:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:23:39] Speaker A: I mean, I've always thought as well, if I've taken photos of people and they've sort of come up to me or wanted to not be in them, then I'd respect that, and that's fine. And I don't want to let, like, the. The legal standard be my, my ethical standard. But, yeah, like you said, you know, there's. There's nothing wrong or like, illegal about it in the eyes of law at least. But I just. Yeah, it's just that sense of. Whenever I have tried to take photos of people here in Melbourne, I. It almost feels like I know that they think that I'm up to no good. So then I start to feel like, oh, I'm sort of doing. [01:24:10] Speaker B: You feel a bit naughty. [01:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. [01:24:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:24:15] Speaker B: You're being sneaky. [01:24:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Let's. [01:24:19] Speaker B: Let's shift gears. Let's talk quite literally talk about gear. You know, you started off on. On that Nikon. [01:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:27] Speaker B: What are you shooting with these days [01:24:28] Speaker A: and why still the Nikon? Just Because I was very used to sort of the ecosystem, I guess, and the menus and everything. So that was a. That was an easy choice for me. I've been on the Nikon Z6 the last six and a half years now. So I got that one 2020 and then have the 24 to 72.8 and the 50 mil 1.8 that I use on that one. And then I've got like the F to Z adapter for some of the older lenses that I've got like the F series, but I very rarely use those nowadays, to be honest. I'm sort of just holding on to them because of the nostalgia around them. But. [01:25:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, okay. [01:25:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:05] Speaker C: You don't find the need to put them on ever? [01:25:09] Speaker A: Not really. I think just for the like Z series, the mirrorless lenses now, because it's, I think it's native to the camera. I just find the photos come out a little bit sharper, a little bit brighter, a bit nicer looking. So it's, you know, and the 24 to 72.8, even though it's 2.8, you know, the. It's still going to take a nicer photo on that camera for me than like the 35 mil 1.8 with the adapter I find. So. [01:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that's fair. And what is your go to lens for street? What is your favorite lens to head out the door with? [01:25:39] Speaker A: I mean, pretty much I've just always got the 2470 on. Basically. It's basically glued to the camera. Unless I know I'm taking portraits. I will bring the 50 mil in that case, but otherwise I'll just leave the house with only the 2470 and just hope that I can take the photos that I want. I mean, usually it's pretty versatile, so I very rarely find that I'm like, oh, I wish I had a, you know, 16 mil or a 200 mil. I mean, I do have the 20. I have the 70 to 202.8 as well. I think a Tamron that I can adapt to the camera, but it's pretty old and I find like I would rather just get closer to the subject than have to worry about the zoom with the old lens. [01:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's very true. I always love finding out what people prefer to shoot, what lens or focal distance they shoot with in street photography. You know, we caught up a couple of weeks ago with Thomas Forbes, or Thomas William on his Instagram shoots. Melbourne street photographer, but also does a lot of tramway shoots and loves his trams Loves his Melbourne trams. And I caught up with him for a street walk the, the weekend after that. We interviewed him and I was just fascinated watching him. You know, he shoots straight with a 70 to 200. He, he loves getting that really, that, that kind of really tight compression on the people. There's still context. The way he frames them are really nice. There's still a lot of context. There's still that the street story is there, but that person really pops because of the subject separation from using a longer lens. And yeah, I'm always interested to see what people prefer to use. I, I'm kind of. My favorite length. Focal length is 35 mil full frame. I'm a Fuji shooter. So it's a 23 and you know, and that feels good for me. That feels right. I might go down to a 16 or 24 mil full frame but that's. They're kind of the two lens, that sort of focal distance. And then, you know, I catch up with Thomas and he's carrying this big white Sony lens, you know, 2.8 constant 2.8. [01:27:35] Speaker C: And it's like we're trying to fly under the radar. Thomas, come on. [01:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah, [01:27:41] Speaker B: but it was fascinating watching him work. You know, he really gets, he gets into tight little spaces. He'll, he'll almost curl up on his hands and knees on the ground on a tram line and, and shoot in the direction of the tram line to a tram that's up on the hill on Bourke Street. You know, you really get down onto the ground on all fours to set up his shot. It was quite compelling to watch, which is. Yeah. Seeing other photographers work in your genre is always fascinating, I think. [01:28:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess especially if you've sort of, if someone like that's always sort of shot with that sort of lens. I feel like if I had that lens on for those photos, I wouldn't know what do to do with it. [01:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah, [01:28:22] Speaker A: yeah, yeah. [01:28:23] Speaker B: Well, I borrowed that. What was that? Tamron. I borrowed it. [01:28:25] Speaker C: Was it the 150? [01:28:27] Speaker B: 150 to 500? [01:28:28] Speaker C: 155. [01:28:29] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay. [01:28:30] Speaker B: Yeah, 150 to 500. Tamron Australia sent me a lens to try out. And whenever people I, I often review or receive lenses to play around with and, and whenever they do, my first go to is just let's put this to the test as street photography, you know. [01:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:45] Speaker B: And so, and you know, it's, it's really. It changes how you have to work because at 150 to 500, even at the 150 end, you know, you kind of. You're standing on one side of Chapel street and the other, and you're almost too close for the camera to even focus still. [01:28:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:00] Speaker B: You know, and so then you've got to get back more and you. And. And it flattens so many elements in the streets. It's really interesting. [01:29:08] Speaker A: Makes you appreciate, especially at 500 mil, I imagine that'd be. [01:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:29:12] Speaker A: Completely different. [01:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, nice, tight frames, but it just flattens lots of stuff, you know. [01:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:20] Speaker C: If. If you're mostly 24 to 70. Have you ever looked through, you know, like, recent work or whatever, through all of your favorite images and had a look at what focal lengths they sort of clump around, like, if there's somewhere you gravitate towards in. [01:29:36] Speaker A: It's an interesting question. No, but I probably should. I'll have a look through my. My Lightroom catalog. [01:29:41] Speaker C: Yeah, you'll have to do it. Yeah, yeah. And see, see, like, do you favor, like, the wide end or the tight end or. Or something? But it'd be interesting to know. Especially. I like to do it. I like to look at all the photos I've shot, and then I like to go to just my selects that I've really happy with and then see where they end up. And am I like, throwing away shots at a certain focal length because they never end up working or whatever, and just. I don't know. [01:30:06] Speaker B: It's. [01:30:07] Speaker C: It's interesting. [01:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, That's. [01:30:09] Speaker A: That's actually a good. Good question. I'll have a look through. [01:30:11] Speaker B: I often use that technique when people say, what lens should I get next? And so what are you shooting with? And they'll say, I've got a kit lens, 24 to 70 or whatever it might be. And I'll say that what Justin's just said. Just go into your Lightroom catalog. You know, look at all your images, all the ones that you've. That you favored or four star or five star or whatever. [01:30:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And. [01:30:27] Speaker B: Yeah, look at the focal distance. And that should tell you what if you are looking at getting a faster prime, for example, that'll tell you what you need to get, because you find out that 80% of your images were shot at 24mil or 35mil, or, you know, and then you can move to a faster piece of glass, because, let's face it, we all love the glass. It's all about the glass. [01:30:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:30:49] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [01:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:51] Speaker A: It was like, even before I really understood why it was important or really knew much about, like, you know, depth of field or anything like that. I just knew I want the 2.8, not the F4. Because it's better for some reason. [01:31:03] Speaker C: Because it's better. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:31:06] Speaker C: And then you realize that once you've shot for a while you're like, I could have done all this with an F4, but yeah, like F8. [01:31:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, same. [01:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah. A lot of my street stuff is at F8 and I've got a 1.4, you know. [01:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:22] Speaker B: And with the Nikon system, you know, you said that being in the same ecosystem system, you thought that was a good idea. How did that transition go from. From, you know, your first camera to the new one to the Z6? [01:31:35] Speaker A: Well, I mean like the Z6 now is like obviously getting on a little bit. It's a bit older, but coming from the D5600, that was like a crazy upgrade. And just the amount of things that I could change in the settings and the amount of sort of customization available within the menus, again comparative to the old sort of kit camera was. Was mind blowing at the time. I think the biggest thing though was just like the realizing how much more I could photograph now because it was just letting in so much more light and I wasn't worried about, oh, it's slightly too dark, oh, it's slightly too bright, whatever, and like how much I can recover from a photo as well. So not. [01:32:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And ISO management. [01:32:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. ISO especially. I think the only up to like 10,000. And then the. I'm not even sure what the max is on the Z6, but yeah, I think it was still good coming from sort of the old camera because it made me work on maybe the composition skills and understanding what it actually was that I was missing or felt like I needed from a new camera. So then when I, when I had the Z6, I actually, you know, could appreciate what it could do rather than just sort of figuring out. Then it was like, I, I know that I want a camera that can do this and this. And then having it finally was like, wow, it's amazing what like a full frame can do compared to like a crop sensor. [01:32:54] Speaker B: Allegedly, some would say. [01:32:58] Speaker C: I was just, I just noticed something you on your Instagram feed, you haven't got a single black and white image. Do you, do you edit in black and white? Do you. Are you a color only person? [01:33:10] Speaker A: Well, I just posted some yesterday. They're not in the front of the. So towards the back of the post. But from time to time I will do a black and white edit. But I think I've always been like a vibrant color sort of person. More so sometimes if the. Yeah. Just for whatever reason, I think the lighting looks better black and white or, you know, it just looks interesting if I'm trying to get the focus on, like, a subject rather than the lighting or the colors. But mostly I think I'm very much drawn to, like, the pastel bright sort of colors. [01:33:42] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. Black and white's something to try. If it didn't work in color or something, you might gravitate towards black and white. Yeah. Okay. [01:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Very, very rarely, though. Maybe like 1 in 50 will be like a. This will look better in black and white to me. But. [01:33:56] Speaker C: Yeah. Interesting. Have you ever set your EVF to black and white in camera to shoot? So you set your picture style to black and white and then go out and shoot in black and white, and then you're still getting raws. So it's one of my favorite things to do. I shoot in black and white and then I'll come in and then it's more the opposite direction where you're like, I wonder what this would look like in color. And it gives you kind of a second unveiling of the image. [01:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:26] Speaker C: You're like, oh, that or it doesn't work or whatever. And it's. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's like a flip it around. [01:34:32] Speaker A: No, that's. I've not done that. But that could be a good exercise as well because I guess it sort of forces you to focus on the composition more so than the colors and everything else. [01:34:40] Speaker C: It's just light and exposure. And exposure. It definitely fun if you're, like, kind of bored. Like, if you're. Yeah. If you're like, I don't know what to shoot today. Just set your camera black and white. Just go and have a look around. I. Yeah, I used to do it. I used to do it in weddings a lot. Yeah, it's. It's a really good way of kind of detaching yourself from the scene or something. I don't know. It's interesting. Yeah, I was. Yeah. I thought, I wonder what your black and white edits look like. And then I was scrolling through. I'm like, I can't see any [01:35:13] Speaker A: funny point about, like, removing yourself from the scene because I think sometimes I do get caught up in, like, worrying too much about how the photo is going to look once I've finished it, as I'm taking it. So I think, you know, I should just take the photo if I find it interesting. Now rather than worrying about how I'm going to edit this or whether it's going to be good or whether I can share this or whatever, it's like, you know, it sort of takes me out of the process sometimes because as I'm photographing I think, oh, this isn't going to be any good, so I won't bother. Whereas it's like if I thought this was worth photographing in that moment, then it probably was. So I may as well still take the photo rather than worry about oh, the colors aren't going to be great or it's going to be too hard to edit this well or so that. [01:35:49] Speaker C: Exactly. [01:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it could be a good exercise to try. [01:35:53] Speaker C: Yeah, it'd be fun to see how. See what you think. I find it really fun. [01:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:59] Speaker B: Sometimes I'll run street walks for camera clubs and one of the activities I do is, yeah, shoot in black and white and one to one square ratio and it blows their little pre retirement minds. [01:36:09] Speaker A: It really does. [01:36:11] Speaker C: Rule of thirds no longer works. Damn it. [01:36:13] Speaker B: What do I do? [01:36:14] Speaker C: Where do I put the subject? Yes, it's wonderful. [01:36:18] Speaker B: Square. Yeah, square and black and white and. Yeah. And it's interesting because when I start the walk, you know, at least 50% of the people don't know how to do that on their. Don't know how to change the aspect ratio or the color profile, you know, the live view color profile on their camera and it's, it's like, well, you know, you should try this because it just helps you continue to train your eye. And when you shoot in black and white and in square, it completely changes your world because that's not how you're used to looking through the viewfinder, you know, and all of a sudden you've got to think differently, you've got to react differently. You know, you're looking for tonal value and texture and composition, as you said, and exposure. Most importantly, where's the light? You know, it all begins and ends with the light, you know, and yeah, it's a good mindful activity as well. Especially if you're feeling a bit stale in your street photography or you feel like you shoot in the same place that you've always shot? You know, I've always stand out the front of Linda street station and thousands and thousands of images shot here. But you know, have you ever done it in square and, or go with a 16 by 9 aspect ratio or, or you know, really change up how you're seeing it? It can really help to develop your eye for those things sticking with the gear, you know, is. Is it a future up? Is an upgrade to your current camera system something that you hope to do? Are you happy just to ride along until the time is right? [01:37:41] Speaker A: I think I've. I mean, there have been cameras that have definitely sparked my interest. I think the Nikon ZF was definitely one that I was sort of on my radar just for that, you know, the. The retro aesthetic as well as the, you know, image quality, everything else. And I've seen good things about it. I think it just looks and feels really nice, but I think it's just too hard to justify, like, when I feel like I don't really need a new camera, it's more so just like a want. So I think I'll keep working this one until it sort of is on its last legs. And it's starting to get that way a little bit now. You know, the weatherproofing's beyond gone. It's got a big crack on the top of the screen, and the sort of grip is, like, at an angle to the actual camera body. So it's really. It's looking worse for wear. But they can. [01:38:22] Speaker C: They can regrip them, though. They can, they can. And you can send it to. Or you wouldn't be able to send it to nps, but you could send it to [01:38:32] Speaker B: Imaging by Design. [01:38:34] Speaker C: Imaging By Design in Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's a matter of what it would cost, but they can definitely regrip them otherwise. [01:38:44] Speaker A: But it's like the. The actual structural integrity of the camera is, like. There's a crack on the side. So the entire, like, handle side of the camera is, like, at a slight angle. [01:38:54] Speaker C: Oh, I thought you meant the. The grip had. [01:38:56] Speaker B: Had like, the glow. [01:38:58] Speaker A: No, no, no. Broken grip is okay. I mean, the grip's just worn. But the. The actual, like, shutter of the camera is no longer, like, parallel with the camera body. It's slightly at an angle. [01:39:07] Speaker C: Oh, no. [01:39:08] Speaker B: And given that, folks, we're going to Launch a. A GoFundMe for Jonas for a new camera. [01:39:15] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. [01:39:16] Speaker A: It's been that way for, like, a year and a half now, I think, and it's still doing fine. So as long as it's worth that, [01:39:22] Speaker B: literally work it into the ground, I think that's great. [01:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:24] Speaker C: Are you. Are you a sort of don't care about keeping up with the latest tech, or is it just a matter of. Hey, just not at the moment, but in terms of, like, you know, like the new iPhone announcement was, like, last night or whatever. Is that the sort of thing that's on your radar at all or are you like, eh, I don't need a phone? [01:39:41] Speaker A: Nah, not at all. I, I think I'm very like utilitarian when it comes to tech like that. It's like if I need it then I'll get it. But I think the one thing that I do notice is like I've, I've done this is sort of like when something does break and when it does need to be replaced, you know, whether it be the camera phone, whatever, I sort of tend to go for the newest and like best version of it hopefully because then it's going to sort of give me the longest lifespan, get [01:40:02] Speaker B: some life out of it. [01:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah, like my, my last phone, I think I had the same iPhone for like eight years or something and that was unusable basically by the time I was ready to replace it. And then I sort of just held on until the iPhone 17 came out last year and got that one. I thought okay, at least now it's like a, it's done its time. I can get the new phone. Hopefully I can get another eight years out of this one at least. So. [01:40:23] Speaker B: But how nice does that jump up? You know, we were talking about this the other night because I, I update my, I update my iPhone every three years because I, I pay off over three years. I get the 36 month payoff and so every three years I get a nice little surprise around the new features and the performance, especially the camera bump, you know, and I just got the 17 Pro. And yeah, the camera quality is just so much better than the one that I was previously on. But then the folks that sort of upgrade every year to the new iPhone, as soon as a new one comes out, they're in line. You know, the diminishing returns means that they don't really see, they don't really get the, that it's a different satisfaction for them, I'm sure. But they don't get to actually get those, those you know, usable. [01:41:08] Speaker C: It doesn't feel like it's just like [01:41:10] Speaker B: kind of the same, just a shiny new thing much. [01:41:13] Speaker A: Unless you get from you, the features I don't think change that much to the point where you'd really be like, wow, this is mind blowing. I mean, sure, like the new one that folds now, it's like, that's cool. But functionally I've seen it, I've seen it. [01:41:28] Speaker B: I haven't seen it yet. [01:41:29] Speaker A: I haven't watched it yet. [01:41:32] Speaker C: But do you photograph with your phone? Obviously I'm sure you do. But do you do it for like stuff that you would. You would post and share or like actual going out to take photos with it when you're traveling or whatever? [01:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So when I was in Vietnam, I did a bit of like phone photography because I mean, the 17 Pro here, it shoots raws as well, which is. They don't come out as nice as the actual camera raws, I find. And they're a little bit sort of harder to edit. Bit more temperamental, I find. But yeah, I definitely just was. The convenience of it was, you know, nice because I was. Had my camera stuck in the bottom of the bag, which was then in a plastic bag strapped to the back of a motorbike in Vietnam. And I thought, well, I don't want to have to unpack that every single time. So sometimes if it's just like a simple shot that I think. I think the iPhone will be good enough, then I'll do that. I do notice that the video quality on the iPhone is definitely better than on the camera, or at least I can edit it nicer. So the Nikon Z6 doesn't shoot log footage, which is a big thing that the iPhone can do now. So assuming I put in the work to actually color grade and edit the footage nicely, I find the iPhone video looks really, really good compared to the camera. [01:42:42] Speaker C: It doesn't have. It doesn't have n log, the Z6. [01:42:45] Speaker A: No. [01:42:45] Speaker C: Really? [01:42:45] Speaker A: That's. [01:42:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:42:48] Speaker A: You can sort of edit the picture profile to be close enough to be like a flat sort of look. But if you then actually put like a LUT on it the same way that you would for true log footage, it just looks completely like. [01:42:59] Speaker C: Oh yeah, you wouldn't like. [01:43:00] Speaker A: The colors are way too saturated and it's. Yeah, yeah. [01:43:03] Speaker C: You couldn't put a lot on it. You just have to modify the color manually if you're going to edit it. Yeah, I. Here's my hot take. I stopped shooting log unless I have to. Unless they're client requests. I've got one client that wants the footage in log, but like I don't. I shoot everything just straight out of camera, baked in color profile, edit it as it looks and it's. I've been enjoying it way more. The footage looks so good. I don't know. Apparently the standard profile out of a camera is better than how I can color grade, so. So I just do that instead. It's crazy. Yeah. I thought the Z6 would have had log. Yeah, it must have maybe two. [01:43:44] Speaker A: Got it possibly. I think it's definitely a thing now. I think it was like maybe the Z6 II and Z72 had like a. You could send your camera in and they would change the either hardware or firmware or something to get it. [01:43:57] Speaker B: I've heard of that. [01:43:58] Speaker A: Yeah. The Z6 is just no log picture profiles like I said. You can sort of make them close to it, but it's not. Not actually like native log recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:44:10] Speaker C: Crazy. It is crazy. So the iPhone is better than the Z6. You heard it here first for video off the record. [01:44:20] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. We won't tell anyone. [01:44:23] Speaker C: Sorry. Just quick sidebar on log footage. Greg, did you see that, that Chris Benny behind the scenes video? [01:44:30] Speaker B: I've only watched the start of it. Yeah. And I haven't seen it all. [01:44:33] Speaker C: Yeah, guy we had on the podcast does like high end videography for like Audi and stuff like that. And so he had to shoot an Audi car going around Albert park before the F1. [01:44:47] Speaker A: Oh nice. [01:44:48] Speaker C: This year. And they had like a four hour window to shoot this car. All this stuff went wrong. And he's just dropped the behind the scenes video of like how they did it. [01:44:56] Speaker A: And he. [01:44:56] Speaker C: So they used. So he, he was using like Arri Alexa cameras which are just ridiculously expensive. But they, they had two iPhones mounted as well that they were using with using so. Because I think they had probably 10 cameras running. And I think for some of the in car stuff, the iPhone because of the gradability and the. Because it could do raw I think as well. The iPhone can do. Oh no, it can do. What's it called like Apple Prores or something like that. [01:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:45:25] Speaker C: So they were rolling that in a couple of shots mixed in with like Ari Alexa's a red. Whatever thousand frames a second crazy red camera. And just also. Yeah, that behind the scenes video. I can't believe that. So this, these productions are so insane. And he does these awesome behind the scenes videos and because they don't promote anything, he gets like 800 views on YouTube and. And it's like it's, it's the most. [01:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:51] Speaker C: If you compare it to any YouTuber that makes like a behind the scenes video about a shoot, this is a thousand times crazier. Like the stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's just like. Yeah, they closed down. They did another Audi shoot. They closed down the Flinders street crossing like in front of Flinders Street Station, you know the, the intersection there right on the corner, closed it down to shoot. Shoot an Audi vintage Audi race car drifting through there. And there's just Behind. [01:46:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:23] Speaker C: Shut down the Great Ocean Road for a Red Bull. [01:46:25] Speaker B: For a Red Bull F1 shoot. [01:46:28] Speaker C: And all this is just on his YouTube channel under like Cube Productions. Behind the scenes stuff. [01:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:33] Speaker C: But no one knows it exists. And I'm like this, these are the best videos on YouTube. [01:46:37] Speaker A: It's anyway, the production, I mean the, the cost and the organizing must be insane. That's the thing as well. Yeah, yeah. [01:46:45] Speaker C: Trying to do this in the lead up to the F1. So obviously they're very like, they're trying to build a racetrack essentially so they don't care that some production team wants to shoot an Audi commercial there. So they got four hours access. The track had to be basically finished before they could get access. So it was like the day before four hours. And then he was like, but here's the kicker. They couldn't use the whole track. They could only use part a few of the turns. They only had 20 minutes on the start line at the start finish straight and the maximum speed that anything could travel was 40 kilometers an hour. And they had to make this, they had to make this car look like it was racing around the track. [01:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be infuriating, wouldn't it? Like imagine having a nice car on the F1 track and only got 40. [01:47:35] Speaker C: Trying to make a commercial to make it look awesome. And it's doing 40ks an hour. Anyway, they go through every way about [01:47:42] Speaker A: how they did it. So. [01:47:43] Speaker C: Yeah, sorry, derail that. [01:47:46] Speaker B: No, that's, it was good point and it's not, not, not a bad segue because I wanted to ask you about projects. You know, often street photographers or documentary photographers will, will from time to time land on a kind of an idea or a project that they want to explore more and extrapolate and dedicate some time, not just days but often years to projects. Is that something that's ever appealed to you? Is there something that, and I'm not trying to steal information here. Is there something about Melbourne that you think is worthy of a dedicated documentary project? [01:48:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it's something that I did notice was just like it wasn't an intentional decision, but I just noticed that I had taken a lot of photos of different bus stops. And that was just one thing that now that I have noticed it, I've been trying to consciously do it more as well. So it's a little secret folder on the computer. I haven't shared any of these anywhere but just like over time I'm hoping to get enough of them because I think there are lots of cool like obviously the stops themselves look different, but then because there's so many different backdrops as well and sort of like going out into the Daniel Ranges and Yarra Valley region and then like CBD and then just random suburbs as well as just having like different people in them. Sort of a little project that I've been working on for maybe like a year or so now. I say working on it. It's just like if I see something as I'm out taking photos, I'll get the photo thing. That's one to put in that folder. But. [01:49:05] Speaker B: But it's in the back, you know, to be aware of that and to see it take it. [01:49:10] Speaker C: Yeah, and so bus, Bus specifically like not tram, not, not tram. Like only bus. [01:49:18] Speaker A: Yeah, just like the bus stops. Just that's, you know, there's the. I think the first ones that I saw were those sort of. I'm not sure if you would see them around your areas, but like the Yara value, they're sort of the green like. I'm not sure if they're made of wood, but they look like sort of stone wood looking. Bus stops. Like the. [01:49:35] Speaker B: Oh yeah, Yep. [01:49:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I saw a few of those. I thought, you know, this is a cool backdrop here. Bust up looks cool. It looks interesting. Take a photo of that. And then I think another one was like an autumn last year. There were just a few like that had cool leaves scattered around them. And I thought this looks like nice. And then, yeah, just realized I suddenly had, you know, 20 plus photos of different bus stops. I thought this is actually a cool little project I'll keep, keep working on. And then yeah, if I can sort of collate enough different photos that are different and interesting, maybe it'll be a, a bigger project at some point but. [01:50:05] Speaker B: And maybe that's the secret to, to a really effective documentary style project is to let it come to you. Rather than rack your brains trying to force something to feel special and important and worthy of time and effort that, you know, it will reveal itself. And I found that too. Like I photographed the Pranskate park mostly in the better weather in sort of the spring and summer months. And I went out a couple of nights ago for the first time this season, it's my skate park season to start documenting, you know, the skate park again. And it, it just sort of came about by accident, you know, because it's around the corner from my home. It was on the way to Chapel Street. I had my camera, I'll take some shots and it just, it's something just you Know, Clicked. [01:50:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:52] Speaker B: And. And now I've got ideas about how I. You know, ideas and also apprehensions about how I make it into something else. You know, whether it's a book or an exhibition or, you know, or even if I commercial, I don't want to commercialize it. You know, create prints for the skaters. [01:51:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:13] Speaker B: And sort of bring them into my world, watching their world. Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. So, yeah, it's an interesting, interesting. [01:51:23] Speaker C: Have you ever made a book, Jonas, or even just for yourself from travels or anything like that? A photo book? [01:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I've got a few. I think I've got them sort of sat next to me here. There was one that I made going to Asia, like, a few years ago. I went to Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and Kuala Lumpur and then Singapore with sort of with Max, who I mentioned from the. One of the photo walk boys that I met back in the 2019. This is 2023. We went and like, checked out all new to US cities and countries, I guess, and I put together, like, a little book of sort of photos from that. And then I had another one of just like different photos throughout Europe, I think, over the years as well, that I made, but never, like, with the intention of making them. It was almost just like, afterwards I had the photos, I thought these would look nice together as a book. But I've never. I've never like, gone out and thought, I'm gonna make a photo book with this sort of subject matter or with this sort of intention behind it. [01:52:25] Speaker B: I think that'd be kind of productive almost. [01:52:27] Speaker A: In retrospect, I think these. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I very much appreciate having them because I think it's awesome to flick through them and look back on as well. [01:52:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I've been printing a lot because I've got a printer here, even though the puppy steals some of the prints. But I've been thinking I need to start doing some books and. But I've got to figure out a way to make it simple because it seems like a big thing. Like, I got to spend all this time laying out this book and I know, do I have to put any text in there or not or whatever. Did you. Did you put a lot of work into the design or did you just keep it straightforward? [01:53:03] Speaker A: I mean, I can show you if you want. For the most of them, please. It's pretty simple for the most part. Just like a. Different layouts, different pages. I just clicked a random page here. Just like, not sure how visible that is, but. [01:53:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Yep. [01:53:21] Speaker A: Somewhat by color and subject matter, but then other times it's just like, you know, a stack of photos that might look interesting together. Like this sort of three split photos. [01:53:32] Speaker C: Oh yeah. [01:53:33] Speaker A: Different subjects but like similar area. I did all the formatting just in Photoshop as well. So the website that I used for those had like a template of these are the margins to put photos within and then you can sort of just stick them wherever you like. But I sort of went through page by page Photoshop. I had the, all the photos that I wanted to put in and then just sort of ordered organized them just how they looked. It was very much a vibes based thing where I said as I'm putting them into Photoshop I thought, yeah, this just feels and looks nice. But no, real like I'm gonna strictly do this, this and this. It was just. Yeah. [01:54:08] Speaker C: What, what place did you use? Was it blurb? [01:54:12] Speaker A: I think that might have been. I've used two different places. One of them was the one that's built into Photoshop. Oh, into Lightroom, possibly. Either Photoshop or Lightroom has like the built in book feature and I, I did one through that and then I did another one that was. I've forgotten the name of now, but that had like the downloadable templates. [01:54:36] Speaker B: Yeah, just to sort of experiment with that. [01:54:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I preferred Blurb from Memory because it was sort of easier to use and the prints I think were a little bit cheaper as well. [01:54:47] Speaker B: So yeah, their interface is quite good. Just a downloadable. Yeah, I've done about four or five books, mostly from my Japan trips. Same sort of thing. Just sick of them being on a, on a hard drive like I wanted to have. [01:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:55:02] Speaker B: But I didn't, I couldn't afford to print and frame them all. And a book is a great solution. Yeah, yeah. [01:55:08] Speaker A: I think especially for like some of those just extra context photos I call them. It's like there's the obvious wow photo, but then there are sort of the, maybe the moments before and after. That's sort of just a nice context to frame that photo that I probably wouldn't print on their own. But like as a photo book it's really nice. Yeah, yeah. That's a great chance for those photos to be seen in a different way that isn't just, you know, the 10th slide of an Instagram post. [01:55:33] Speaker C: That's right. And yeah, and it puts things in context. You can make things bigger and smaller depending on how relevant they are to the story. I think I need to do more of them. Add it to your Visual board directly from. Oh yeah, it is. So it's partner with Blurb. The Lightroom Classic integrated model is partner with Blurb. So it's technically ordering through Blurb. Select your dimensions center blurb send to blurb book button. Okay. Sign up to an account and then complete your order online to finalize cover choice, paper upgrades and checkout. Yeah, okay. [01:56:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one thing I liked about Blurb is that they had, they had paper choice, they had cover choice. You can go hard or soft back, you can get, if you go hard back, you can get a slip cover like they can. You know, they obviously want to upsell you on, on additional options and services. But even just making a. My last trip to Japan, I made two 35 photo each photo books. One was black and white, one was color, and it was just that simple. I just had to call the images and then arrange them on the blurb template thing that we talked about. And yeah, just hit order. I just got one copy of each. [01:56:49] Speaker C: Okay. [01:56:50] Speaker A: I think the big one recently for me that I like shared online and people seem to love were the little mini zines, the photo books that I made. [01:56:59] Speaker B: That's how I came across your channel. [01:57:02] Speaker A: Your work doesn't surprise me. That's. That really took off for me. But it's these little like 8 page. I'll see if I can unblow my background. These little eight page photo. I call them photo books. But I mean it's just, it's one sheet of paper. But you get these tiny little layouts of, you know, a little series of photos. I think you can, yeah, two photos per page maximum. But it's just like a really simple and easy and very cheap way of showing your photos in a slightly different format, which I've, I've really liked a ton of these. [01:57:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's. The platform's called Dirty Little Zine and it's just browser based. Jay. And you can, yeah, you can add text. You can, it's just a really simple. You can print them out in a four or a three if you want a slightly bigger Z. Yeah. And then there's a video on the Dirty Little Zine site that just shows you how to fold, how to cut and fold them. And they're really effective and it's even got a QR code tool. So I've used them for my street photography workshops. Oh yeah. [01:58:02] Speaker C: So you print them at home. You can't, I can't just order them. [01:58:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, but it just gives you the layout download. [01:58:09] Speaker A: And then in my Case I just went to Officeworks and got like 10 of each and it was about $10 to print, you know, 50 different sheets off. So. [01:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And so on the back, I put the. You can generate a QR code on the dirty little zine site. And I put that on the back cover and people can just scan that. It goes to my. My Street Photography workshop page. [01:58:30] Speaker C: Okay, so. So this is it. This is the website name. Your zine. Yeah, yep. And. [01:58:35] Speaker B: Yep. [01:58:35] Speaker C: And then you can just. Do you have to have this coverage thing or can you. [01:58:39] Speaker A: No, no, no, you can have. No text as well. You can have just. [01:58:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:58:43] Speaker C: And you have captions. Us letter A4. A3. Yeah, hang on. So if it's A4, you. You have to cut them up. Do you. They become smaller? [01:58:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so the A4 becomes this big. So compared to the phone, it's like about that big. [01:59:03] Speaker B: Okay, that's the A3. So you have to trim. [01:59:09] Speaker C: Right. So you need. You need. Ideally need a guillotine. Unless you're an absolute wizard. [01:59:14] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no. Just a craft knife and a steel ruler. 3 bucks at office Works. And then you. You cut it, you fold it, and Sash printed some of these at work, but I went to officeworks and got [01:59:28] Speaker C: a slightly heavier stock and she printed them using official print credits of a job. Sure, that's. I love that. [01:59:35] Speaker A: That's. [01:59:36] Speaker C: That's. That's how to do it. [01:59:38] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's just a simple way. So here's the A4 ones. These are the ones that Officeworks did for me, is that. I can't tell if you can see that. [01:59:48] Speaker C: Yeah, we can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. [01:59:51] Speaker B: And this. These are the ones I give my Street Photography workshop participants. So it's got the. I've got the five elements of street photography, what to look for, and it's just a little visual prompt for people. Little cheat sheet images all over it. Yes. [02:00:05] Speaker C: If. If I want to put one of these in every bright festival of photography show bag. [02:00:11] Speaker B: One of mine. [02:00:12] Speaker C: Yeah, if I get them printed. No, like a Camera Life one with a little bit of info about the podcast and stuff. If I get them printed, will you put them together? [02:00:23] Speaker B: I'll pay one of the kids. Right, I know because I was going [02:00:26] Speaker A: to do it for. [02:00:27] Speaker B: For me. I was going to do it for my workshops. No, yeah, I was. I thought about that. Yeah. [02:00:33] Speaker C: You know how long that would take? [02:00:35] Speaker A: It is. It is a little bit. [02:00:37] Speaker C: How long do you reckon it takes you to put one together, Jonas? Like from, from start to like from after they're printed to like get it done. [02:00:45] Speaker A: I think the first ones definitely took a bit longer and there was a bit of trial and error where some of them are just completely misaligned. But now that I sort of. Because I've got like the craft knife and like a little map I can cut the lines perfectly straight on. So I've got the system figured out now but probably still about like two, three minutes per scene I would say just to get them. Nice. Because I, I'm very meticulous with how I fold them to make sure that they're actually opening nicely as well. [02:01:10] Speaker B: But yeah, I just went and got a cutting mat. Justin. Yeah I just ordered a cutting mat off Amazon. That's my desk mat. My keyboard and mouse sit on that. Got a steel ruler from Officeworks and a craft knife from Officeworks and you know the prints. [02:01:22] Speaker A: One of these. [02:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah I've got exactly the same one. And the prints just cost you. Yeah they cost you stuff all if you do them in volume [02:01:30] Speaker C: Greg. If you can work non stop and keep a consistent three minutes per zine pace you would get them all done in 30 hours. [02:01:39] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, I'm gonna outsource that. [02:01:41] Speaker C: Easy, easy. [02:01:44] Speaker B: But it's fun. It's a great little way to you know to even just to view your images in that format is so different to looking them, scrolling them on your screen. [02:01:54] Speaker A: 100. I've loved doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:01:59] Speaker B: And that was how I came across Jonas's work is because it just popped up on my Instagram feed. This little video. Yeah. And so that's when I reached him and said hey love your work. Why don't you come on the show and yeah, yeah, no they're a lot of fun. I would encourage. I almost thought about you know incorporating something like this into the print swap for BFOp Justin. But it was going to be a bit too messy. [02:02:29] Speaker C: Yeah it'd be a ton of. A ton of work. But I'm just looking at this is. Hang on. I got to bring the reel up here. I'm gonna bring the reel up about this. Zane. Add that to stage. This is it over here. It's had 1.7 million views. Yep. [02:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I think more people have seen that video of mine than anything I've ever posted anywhere. Like combined. [02:02:56] Speaker C: That's crazy. [02:02:57] Speaker B: It's awesome isn't it? [02:02:58] Speaker A: And it was so the, the one just before that I just posted the video of me like flicking through one of the zines and even that I think it has like 500,000 views. And that was when people started commenting and said, how do I make this? I thought, well, I may as well like post the video on how I made it. And then that just took off even more. So. [02:03:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:15] Speaker C: Wow, this is crazy. [02:03:18] Speaker B: Great video. Yeah, it is a great video. It really caught me straight away. But I think people are craving an alternative way to viewing images than just scrolling through a phone. [02:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:03:27] Speaker B: You know, and that's why we're encouraging people to print whenever possible. We're running up Jonas, we're running a. A print swap at this year's Bright Festival. So people, ah, yeah, choose one of their Images, they print 20 copies and that throughout the festival weekend, we're going to set up meetup points for people to come and trade their images with other people and talk about the craft and talk about their work and create those connections rather than just people, you know, liking something on a Instagram feedback actually get to physically, you know, hold someone else's work and evaluate it and reflect on your own. I think that's. We think it's going to be a really powerful project, so we're looking forward to that happening. [02:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think even just choosing which photo of your own you'd want to share would be. [02:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, quite interesting. [02:04:14] Speaker C: I can't figure it out. That's why I was doing test prints the other day. I've printed like 40 photos and I'm like, nah, not good enough. Next. Apparently my work, none of my work looks good in 6x4. It's like a 4 and above. Maybe my. [02:04:29] Speaker B: Some of your travel shots are amazing. [02:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's. [02:04:31] Speaker C: They apparently the way that I shoot or something, that the subject isn't clear enough or something, you know, I'm just not. They look all right bigger, but they don't look great small. [02:04:41] Speaker B: You're pixel peeping. That's what you're doing. [02:04:43] Speaker C: No, it's not the quality or anything. It's just when I look at them in a six by four, I'm like, what even is that? It's nothing. [02:04:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very small. It is. When I got mine back from. From camera house in Croydon who was supporting our project. Yeah, I kind of like these are my ones that I'm doing. So. [02:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:04] Speaker B: Taking 20 of these beautiful bold colors. [02:05:07] Speaker C: Big subjects. [02:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah. But I'm good at photography, Justin. [02:05:10] Speaker C: Ah, is that word. [02:05:11] Speaker B: Yes. [02:05:12] Speaker C: Damn it. [02:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:16] Speaker C: I did so many. Yeah. [02:05:19] Speaker B: I'm very conscious of time. We've been going for a little over two hours and I love how much time flies when we're having these sorts of conversations. [02:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:27] Speaker B: Quick Justin, let's, let's move into final comments and questions. Have you got anything burning that you [02:05:33] Speaker A: want to ask Jonas? [02:05:35] Speaker C: Well, I mean we don't really need to know what his desert island camera is because I feel like I already know. But I guess I could ask because we can throw in there. Do you have as desert island a zombie apocalypse camera? It can be one you don't own yet. Is there anything that you really like have lusted after that you were like, all right, if I was going to travel the world for three years with just one camera and one lens, it would be this. Or would you take the, the slightly broken Z6 and just know you've got what you need? [02:06:05] Speaker A: I think, I mean I do want to say that I would just take the slightly broken Z6 but I do really love some of the Fujifilm cameras just for like their size and. [02:06:15] Speaker B: Of course you do, you're only human. [02:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean just every time I've used them I thought these are so easy to use. The photos just always come out nice and comparatively they're just so easy to transport as well. Because that's sort of the one big thing. If I was gonna. Every time I've gone on a bigger trip with the Z6, it's. I'm very conscious of the fact that that plus the lens, plus any other lens I bring is know multiple kilograms of gear that I've just always got on me. So I think down and yeah, exactly like the ideal camera for me would have all of those functions but be the size of a phone. So yeah, that's where I think the Fujifilms really shine. [02:06:52] Speaker C: That's the dream. [02:06:54] Speaker B: Yesterday OM Systems, formerly Olympus, released their, their first pen camera since. Is it their first pen since becoming omn? No, I don't think it is. Anyway, an updated pen. I, I'm really intrigued by it. I think it will make a good street camera. [02:07:11] Speaker C: I'll dig into that and we'll talk about it on, on Monday night and see whether it's something that's going to be a cool camera or if it's a bit of a miss. But yeah, I, I've been. I lust after all sorts of gear and I've got everything I definitely need. But the g. The. Do you ever look at the Ricoh GRS for like travel and stuff because they're so small. They're so small. [02:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:31] Speaker B: Yep. [02:07:32] Speaker A: Those are sort of like the, I'd say like the even smaller version of like the Fujifilm X100 series. [02:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:40] Speaker A: I've seen people take great photos with those GRs as well. Yeah, I think as well, like the, the price point for me is always just like, oh, is it too much for me? Am I really gonna use this? Am I gonna, you know, can I justify spending like, like over a thousand dollars on a. Basically a point and shoot camera that [02:07:56] Speaker B: I. Yeah, well, the, the GR4, they're like 2200. [02:08:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:08:01] Speaker B: But to get a GR4 monochrome is closer to three grand to three grand. [02:08:05] Speaker C: Whereas they used to be. Yeah, they were like 1200, it seemed like. Yeah. Overnight, basically they doubled in price. I know they didn't, but that's what it feels like because I remember, yeah. Five years ago, whenever it was that I sort of first looked at them, they were like, at about 1200 was like, oh, yeah, it's a bit. Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty expensive point and shoot. But now they're. They're basically close to the price of an X100. [02:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And at that point I'd probably get the X100, to be honest. [02:08:30] Speaker C: But definitely better camera for overall, like a better, better do everything camera. Yeah, it's got a proper viewfinder and everything. Yeah. But, yeah, I think other than that, that's about, that's about all I need to know because I've. This puppy slept through the whole podcast and now he's decided that he wants to attack me and get me take him outside. There's that. All right. [02:08:53] Speaker B: There is that. How old is he now? Gosh, he's gotten big quick. [02:08:56] Speaker C: He's doubled in size. I think it's. It's a little over three months. [02:09:00] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [02:09:01] Speaker B: But yeah, so much energy. [02:09:03] Speaker C: Yeah, he's just ready to party now that he's been asleep. [02:09:07] Speaker B: Yeah, he is too. All right, well, in the interest of Justin not getting dog pee in his lap, I think that might be a good place to tie a bow in this episode of the Camera Life podcast. But on behalf of everybody in the chat and the folks that are yet to watch this, who will do so later on, thank you so much, Jonas, for your time and for your insight, your candidness about your journey in this craft, I would love to catch up with you at some stage and go on a street walk together. [02:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [02:09:35] Speaker B: You know, I think that'd be a lot of fun. And like I said, you know, I've caught up with, with other guests in the past, street photographers. It's, it's always a, a great, A great opportunity to go out and see how other people work in the same genre. I love that a lot. But we will draw a close there. Thank you once again. And just for the folks watching and listening along, where's the best place for people to check out your work? [02:10:00] Speaker A: Definitely Instagram. So you can search me up Jonas Wilson with an underscore at the end and hopefully one day YouTube Again if I get around to it. [02:10:09] Speaker C: Do it. Yeah, do it. We can be accountability by buddies. I need to make one as well. We've got. It's gotta. Yeah, it's gonna see. [02:10:17] Speaker A: I'll try to get one video out before the end of the year. That'll be my goal. [02:10:21] Speaker C: All right, It's a start. [02:10:23] Speaker B: We'll take it. It's a win. Yep. All right, well, let's roll the music, Jay, and we'll say goodbye to some peeps. [02:10:31] Speaker C: Thank you. Philip Johnson. Good to see you here. He says special thanks, Justin, Greg and. And Jonas. Thanks. Everyone else was here. JC Orange, David Mascara, Rodney Nicholson, Julie Powell. Who else was here? East coast photography. Ah, I'm getting attacked. This is crazy. Paul was here to see you. Paul, Lucinda was here. Craig, Robert Varner. I don't know. I'm getting. I'm getting taken down. I gotta go. Thanks, everybody. We'll be back on Monday night for the round of photography show. We'll talk about Apple's releases and the new pen and all sorts of stuff, and otherwise, I'm sure we've got another epic interview lined up next week, so. [02:11:12] Speaker B: We do. [02:11:13] Speaker C: Thanks, Jonas. [02:11:14] Speaker A: Sweet. Thank you. Thanks for having me. [02:11:16] Speaker B: All right, be safe, everybody.