Kris Anderson | How to Stand Out as a Performer (Headshots That Actually Work) (EP182)

[00:00:25] Speaker A: Well, good morning everybody and welcome back to the Camera Life podcast. It is Thursday, Thursday the 14th of May, 2026. And being a Thursday morning, obviously we're going to interview a guest. Joining us today is Chris Anderson who's an award winning. Oh, there's so much to list in your resume. Let's just stick with award winning for now. Performance arts photographer, portrait photographer, focusing on performers and the needs of producers. And a bit of photojournalism in there as well, I believe. [00:00:57] Speaker B: So there's probably most things in there if you dig a little bit you can find those genres somewhere in the resume. So yeah, yeah. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Well, look, welcome to the show, Chris. It's absolutely fantastic to have you on board. Thank you for making the time for us today. It's funny that, you know, when I, whenever I research guests, the first thing I do is I go to their, their website and I look at their about page. Now I think previously the record for the most obnoxious amount of information on their about page might go to Alex Kearns, who one of our past guests and works with, you know, pet photography at Houndstooth Studio. She also does a bunch of tours and workshops and she's a BFOP and all of that. She's prolific. But I think yours might be even more obnoxiously long. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Even more obnoxious. Is that a good thing? Is this a good title? [00:01:50] Speaker A: It's terrible grammar but yes, I believe it is a good thing and I [00:01:55] Speaker B: want to do, I'm going to add something to it now. I'm going to add a new title which is, you know, I think you should most obnoxious about page. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, just put it, just make it bold. Put it, make that the title. Get rid of the about us bit. But yeah, I want to lean into that. We'll get to some questions around that throughout today's interview. Let's kick off with a bit of a question. Just trying to remember what it was now. Gosh, my brain has just gone blank. See, I'm 53 almost and as we talked about before we went live, certain things no longer make sense. You know, not needing the bathroom, suddenly needing the bathroom. What is that about? I don't get that. [00:02:35] Speaker B: Well, my friend, I'm 54, so I've got a year up on you. So any excuse you have, I can probably one up a little bit. So you know, you get it, right? [00:02:42] Speaker A: You get it. You get the, you get the trials and tribulations of being over 50. [00:02:47] Speaker B: The youth is wasted on the young. That phrase has never made more sense. Than it does now. It's like. [00:02:51] Speaker A: But yeah, that's true, that's true. Now in a past life or maybe just in your life, you were actually a performer yourself before you got into the performance photography. Tell us a little bit about what it was, what sort of performance work that you did in the past and where did that spring from? [00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so I still am. That's still part of the ongoing resume. But I've always been a musician. I've played piano by ear since I was really small and that was always a just, you know, mucking around at home by myself kind of thing. In high school I got into bands. So if you were wandering around the Queen street mall in like 1989, 1990, and you saw a five, five or six fresh faced young kids begging with a guitar case, busking, I might have been one of those. So did you know that that was kind of, that was the band thing. And that went on for a little while, but then I fell into improv theater, which is always something that I kind of loved while I was at school and used to go and see people perform when I was at uni and stuff like that. If you don't know improv theater, it's absolutely a niche within a niche. Whose line is it anyway? Isn't sort of an example of that. It's a little more on rails than a lot of improv. But I have a lot of friends that were acting and doing that and I thought, well, I could do better that too. So I went to acting workshops for improv theater and sucked was so bad. But because I can play music, one of them said, hey, do you want to come and do music for a show? And that kind of led into I guess a multi decade career of doing music for improv theater. And Brisbane's a pretty supportive place for that. There's a whole lot of different improv groups and you know, from the short form stuff like whose line is it to longer form things with. Like there's times where we've done like full length musicals based on an offer from the audience with an Act 1 and an Act 2 and completely improvised with the story completely coming from whatever inspiration we got from the audience up front. So there was a period where I did a ton of that stuff, especially at uni when you've got a lot of time to play with and you know, you don't have family and stuff like that. So like that improv theater has been a pretty big deal for me for a long time. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And you still, you still participate in that, you said you still like to call yourself a performer. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And all of that. Definitely not as much as before. I'm probably doing 15 gigs a year now, which doesn't sound like a lot. And it's often just one off shows or there's a. There's a group in Melbourne called Improvised Whodunit to do a show called Murder Village, which goes to all the comedy festivals. They did Adelaide Fringe or Adelaide Comedy Festival, Melbourne Comedy Festival. They came out to Brisbane a couple weeks ago. And as they tour, they get local musicians to do stuff. So I did a couple shows with them as well. So it's still like. It's still a thing you do. And I think because it's improv as well, you can kind of step into it. You don't. You. You don't rehearse. You do have skills. You need to keep strong, but you're never kind of. It's like. It's not scripted, really isn't planned. Like, no one's got time for that. Yeah, so. Yeah, but, yeah, I still do a bit of that. But there was. There was kind of a point where I started taking photos at home with the kids. I think that's like a lot of photographers kind of get into photography when you realize, oh, you know, photograph the kids and whatever. And I was learning basic portraiture like any parent does, and then realizing, oh, well, I work with all these actors and actors, like, having photos, and this is a good place to experiment. And I'm an experimenter. So I started with, you know, the. The main group that I perform with. I started going, hey, you know, let's shoot headshots. Let's shoot some, you know, after this show, can I get some shots of everyone in costume and stuff like that? You know, just to kind of sort of start playing with how to. How to shoot, how to direct people, how to. How to light and that sort of thing. And it's pretty exciting photographing performers because they. They're very. Especially improvisers. They're very giving. You know, they want to inject ideas and. Which can lead to some really fun images. So that's. That's kind of where, you know, it went from just taking photos of family to, oh, this is a thing. Like, maybe this is a thing I could do. So that's. That's sort of how that started. [00:07:26] Speaker A: Now, that's amazing. [00:07:27] Speaker B: And. [00:07:27] Speaker A: And I'm curious because often I imagine that those first jobs you did for your own company, the group that you were always performing with, were they, you know, Kind of pro bono shots. Like, more part of experimentation, your learning. When you had to flip that to start charging folks for your output as a photographer, how did you. How did you navigate going from doing free work and people know that you're taking photos all of a sudden asking for money? I know it might not have been in the same group, but, you know, it's just that switch that people need to make from. All right, I'm done doing favors. [00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Now I need to earn some cash. How did that go? [00:08:04] Speaker B: So that was. That was interesting because I think I didn't flip for the performance side right away. I did flip for family stuff. So, you know, right when I kind of started taking money from people for shooting, it was, you know, family portraits in the park. And I think I managed to. Hey, they referred me and this is a maternity session. And then it started like, I started kind of. There's a friend of mine who I also knew through the improv world who shot weddings. So I assisted her for a couple of years, which was. That was incredible, actually, like doing weddings. I don't shoot weddings anymore. Um, but when you're involved with shooting a wedding, you're covering so many genres of things. Like, it's excellent, excellent hardcore training. So kind of I think I started taking and I don't think I charged a lot. Like, let's be honest, when you, when you're. You're fighting against, oh, I've never charged you money. And you know, imposter syndrome is standing over you ready to clobber you, which, you know, still does, but, you know, when you just started, it's like, how can I charge money for this? I'm sure I wasn't charging a lot, but there was that kind of the non performance aspect of things. And I pushed that for a while. Like, yeah, even though I'd kind of cut my teeth on working on, like, photographing live shows and photographing performers and. And stuff like that, I kind of went, well, that's not what photographers do. So, you know, I will take. I'll be a portrait photographer or whatever. And I think I photographed paint cans, you know, like, everything, just whatever you could possibly photograph, because that's what you do, isn't it? [00:09:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. There is that journey of, you know, going from photographing your feet to, you know, like you said, assisting on weddings, photographing as much stuff as you can. And I remember when I. Very similar to you, I. I learned film photography in art school and then, you know, had to get a real job. Could be an Artist and families, you know, came, kids came along and so I started photographing the kids. And then that was always just a bit of a point and shoot thing until, you know, later when I, when I invested more invested back into getting a decent camera. And yeah, I photographed everything. And at first I thought it was because I just found everything fascinating, but I think you're right. I think it's more about that learning process and discovering what path actually suits. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Like, I think I pretty quickly learned that being a newborn photographer is not for me. I'm just not that patient. It's something that I, I think I have the technical capability to do, but I don't have the temperament for it. So it's like, okay, cool, well, that's out. I can't shoot landscapes. I just cannot see them. I can see architectural landscapes, but I cannot see landscapes. Plus, when you, you know. And now I hang out with people that can see them really well and there's a little bit of, all right, well, you, you, you be awesome. I won'. There's a point where I kind of, I started doing more theater photography. And at that point, now I'm. Because I'm charging money for family photography and stuff like that, it wasn't such a big deal to think, okay, I can charge to photograph a live show or to do headshots or whatever. And that started to pick up. And then I hit this point of going, oh, like I actually really like doing the theater stuff. And it's not that I don't like photographing families and weddings and stuff because I'm a people person and you get to hang out with people and meet new people and that's, you know, I get a lot of motivation from just hanging out with people, just happens to have a camera at the time. But I get way more enjoyment out of, I don't know whether it's working with people that are performers or creating assets that can be used as, you know, whether it's documenting or promoting performance. That was just, you know, if I had to pick one, I'd pick that. And I kind of went, oh, you know what? Like, life is busy. I have a non photography job, I have kids, I've got other responsibilities. Why am I photographing paint cans? That is not something I want to get better at. But it's not okay. Doesn't make me happy. So there was a point, it's probably like seven or eight years ago now, where I went, I'm done with that side of things. And it's just, you know, if it's if they're, you know, close friends of the family, sure, you know, we can do a shoot together, but that's not where I'm going to spend my time. It's more performance stuff and then stretching myself with whatever random personal projects I have as well. And, and that was probably the key change because it meant I was doing work that I really liked and jettisoning the stuff I could probably do without. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah, no, and I noticed that reading your bio and having a look at, you know, reading about who you are and what you've done and yeah, can definitely see that, that, that, that side of it. All right, cool. Now look, before we go on, there's a couple of little bit of housekeeping things I have to do. First and foremost, I've got to pay the bills because Justin's not here, of course, and he took the, he took the company card with him, which was probably clever. This episode of the Camera Life podcast is proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps. At Lucky Straps, we're Lucky Straps. See, we actually support ourselves. I don't know how that works from the books, but we do. If you're looking for a handmade Australian made leather camera strap that will fit pretty much any camera on the market, Then head to Luckystraps.com and have a look there. Now if you use code, if you find something you really like, add it to cart. And if you use code, Greg, you'll get a healthy little discount at time of checkout. But our camera straps are made from fine grain leather, amazingly built, durable, they'll probably outlast you and they have a ton of amazing features. So we've got slash proof nylon webb, we've got a quick release system that allows you to add and remove your camera strap to any camera quickly, even when you're on the go. So head to Luckystraps.com, use code. Greg, get yourself a healthy discount. Now, while we're, while we're in admin mode, just for a moment, I think I might just jump in and say good morning to the folks in the chat. And being a Thursday morning, it's a little quiet at the moment, but Philip Johnson was, was first in queue. Good morning, gents. Good morning all. Philip sent me a very interesting video this morning. It was the reveal trailer for the new Sony A7R6 that just dropped was announced I think overnight. It's been one of the worst kept rumors in the industry for a number of months. But thank you Philip for sending that through that. We'll talk about that on Monday. Night on our random photography show which airs at 7:30pm Monday evenings. Strains Eastern Standard Time Ticking all the boxes here today. Julie Powell. Morning from Melbourne. You're back from New Zealand, Julie. I imagine I've been following her journey on socials as she's traveled. Lucky straps. I've never heard of them. That must be Justin. And good morning gents. Greg, I didn't think you were that old. I am that old and some many days I feel older. Let me tell you, many, many days it hurts. [00:15:10] Speaker B: How mentally old are you? Well, that's a whole other question though. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Look, it's interesting. Sometimes I can be like a, you know, like a 20 year old brat and then other times I feel like I'm 80 because I'm just hearing the tropes that my parents used over and over when I was, when I was 20 or 18 or 16 and I'm starting to hear and I go, I'll say something to the kids and I'll stop and go, sorry, ignore that. My mother just came out of my voice. So you know, it's swings and rounds a bit. Roundabouts Chris. Swings and roundabouts. Speaking of the way things were, let's roll back the clock a little bit for you. You talked about getting involved in, you know, in improv theater and performing. What was it that drove that desire, do you think? What was it that created that spark of interest in, in an industry like that? [00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it, it's funny because I have stage fright like and it's when I first started doing like piano, I think I took lessons for about five weeks and then recitals were a thing. It's like, okay, I'm not doing that. Like I really, really, really do not like getting up and on. Well, I didn't like getting up on stage and doing any of that stuff. The idea that people are focused on you and you know they're watching what you're doing I think really, really freaked me out. So I don't think I had any intention of getting into a performing space. I just started jamming with friends at school and well after school to have a band and it's like that was super fun and we would hang out, we'd learn songs and you know, oh, and then we had a gig and I think the gigs coming up, it's like oh my gosh, like we're going to be in front of people. I hadn't really thought about that. And I think our, our very first gig was if you're in Brisbane, remember Amazon's water park, which is now, like, the DFO generally, that was our first gig that we ever had, that I ever did as a. As a musician, and it's like, oh, no. And got through it alive, but, you know, super awkward. [00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:22] Speaker B: So I don't think it was ever. There were no designs on being a performer. I kind of backed into it. And then the more of that you do kind of, you know, like. Yeah, it's a bit scary because it's your first time doing. Okay, well, now it's your 10th time doing. Oh, now it's your 100th time doing it. It's okay. Like, you kind of know the routines and you know how it works. Pretty similar for, like, the. The improv theater thing. And one of the nice things about doing improv music is most of the time I wasn't on stage, so, you know, you didn't see all this. I don't have to use my words, you know, it's. It's kind of the. Just the music that comes from off stage. So it didn't feel like being presented to people. It was just providing the music. So, yeah, it didn't come at all from a desire to, you know, be that guy or anything like that. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, because you've mentioned a couple of things that really stood out to me. One was about stage fright, and the other was about imposter syndrome. And I'd never. I feel like I suffer quite significant imposter syndrome. I have quite an anxious. I have anxiety, and sometimes it [00:18:34] Speaker B: uses [00:18:35] Speaker A: imposter syndrome to punish me for thinking that I can do even something like this. You know, I was always a shy person, and I want to know how. Do you have a routine or a trick or advice on how to manage those naysaying voices, whether it be, you know, anxiety, imposter syndrome, or stage fright. Do you have, like, a process or a method perhaps that you use to deal with that sort of experience? [00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I do, actually. There's a couple things like imposter syndrome. It's because I keep talking about it with friends and whatever. You know, I kind of think about why is it and where does it come from? And I feel like imposter syndrome is actually really closely related to, you know, how, like, forget, you know, like, just in general life on. On social media, people post photos of their best life, right? And people usually curate the best possible versions of themselves, and you go, wow, you know, they've got their life together. Oh, man, my room's really messy, and these bills are Late. But look at those people. And they, they got their shit together. I think imposter syndrome is actually not far from that because, like, as a photographer, for example, we see other photographers putting their best work out there. They're putting the work they choose to show people, they're advertising themselves, they're doing reels about their shoot, and they're probably, nine times out of ten, they're not posting their lows, they're posting their best. So you only get to sample other people at their best, but you get to sample yourself through the whole range of, you know, yeah, you're best. And then the man, I've got no idea what I'm doing, or this is never going to work, or this is a fail, or I can't believe I spent all this time with it. So, you know, kind of the level of, of data that you have about yourself sucking is way more than the level of data you have about other people sucking. And then you realize, yeah, because they're just curating themselves. So they actually probably spend as much time in those spots as you do, and they're doing the exact same thing that you're doing, whereas they're looking around at other people going, wow, they've got their, they've got their act together. So, yeah, from an imposter syndrome point of view, that's how I quiet that voice a little bit. Yeah. It's funny because some people think, oh, you know, when you win awards, that gets rid of imposter syndrome. And it absolutely doesn't like it. It gets rid of for like a week and then. And it comes back again. So that's, that's probably my imposter syndrome trick. [00:21:05] Speaker A: I think that's a really great way of putting it, actually, because you're right. We, you know, we have expectations placed upon us, whether it be social media, advertising, even just the shows that we watch, you know, where they. Some most of the time, not most of the time, but we often choose to shoot. We often choose to watch shows that make us feel good. And so, you know, we've got that, that kind of idyllic family environment being, you know, or whatever it is that it's about pumping at you through screens, not just tv, and then you've got, you know, I always had a lot of parental pressure about what it was that I was going to do and be right. And, and I think that that feeds into it too, because if you don't live up to those expectations, you feel like you've either let people down or you just, you couldn't do it. Yeah, it's an interesting mix. It really is. And so when you were moving forward and you started to photograph other performers, how did. How did you approach that? How did you say, well, I'm going to start doing this, guys. Is that okay? Like, what was your. You know, do you remember what it was like to get sort of everyone, [00:22:15] Speaker B: like, to get consent, like, just starting out. These were all friends, right? So they all knew that I was. Because your friends know what's going on in your life, and they knew that I was developing photography skills. So it's like, hey, you guys mind if I shoot some behind the scenes? Oh, that's totally cool. Hey, this is useful for our social media, for this group. Is that all right? Or whatever. So it kind of. It just grew little by little by little. And so it wasn't at that stage, it wasn't about approaching new people and trying to build that rapport or get consent or whatever it was with an established group. So that was really easy. And then it's. There's a fair amount of empathy if you screw it up, right, because they're your friends. So it's a safety. Yes, it's totally. And it's having that safe environment to experiment. Like, I'm. I am very big on experimentation. I'm very big on failure. Failure is totally cool. Like, that's how you learn stuff. So, yeah, with those groups, it was. It was. That was never an issue. I think the harder part is going, right, well, now I'm going to make myself available to people that I don't know. And even then, like, theater communities are. They're usually like, in Brisbane, everyone knows everyone. Like, it's the nature and like, you know, kind of moving outside of improv theater into wider theater. It's the nature of theater people to work in different companies for different shows, and everyone knows everyone. And so before too long, people were coming to me saying, hey, could you photograph this? Can you photograph the show? I need headshots. Our group needs headshots. So it kind of became. There was like a natural networking thing where you got a little bit of reputation, and if you can solve someone's problem for them, that's really helpful. And people thought I could solve their problems for them. So I was kind of getting pulled into opportunities to shoot rather than having to, you know, put the word out. And even then that imposter syndrome stuff comes in. It's like, oh, I don't know these people. How am I going to. And eventually you go, like, I don't have time in life to, to not charge money for it. And there's this, there's this, okay, so when you've got a non photography job, there's an argument to say you don't need the money from photography. Like you know, you're making enough money to eat and have a roof over your head. So why are you charging money? And I flipped that and went, no, because I have a non photography job. I don't need this particular, this specific photography opportunity to make money. I can charge whatever I like and if I don't get it, it's okay. So to me that's, that's how I've kind of gone right, well, I can charge what I consider to be a healthy amount of money for my services even though I have a non photography job. And I think it's funny because as soon as I started changing the amount that I was charging people to not be cheap, people stopped trying to negotiate with me on price. Yeah, it's like, okay, well you are charging an amount that shows that you're a serious player. Great, we respect that. And then either they are my client or they're not. So you know, it's, it's. I think that's a lucky thing about being in an industry where you already have that network and then kind of moving or I guess diversifying from just being a performer to, to being a creative partner. From a photography point of view is the network that does the work for you and it's still working now. You know, like if I work with the producer and I've done good work and they've gone off and worked with a new theater company, they're likely to pull me in. And honestly if the work that I do is terrible, they're not likely to pull me in. So it's self selecting. It's in my best interest to do good work for people. [00:25:56] Speaker A: I think it's interesting that, you know, it is a bit of a flip because often people start out like we've talked about, you know, you learn photography, you go around shooting everything. You start doing, you know, shoots for friends for free. You start charging friends of friends a little bit, you know, just to feel the scent. There's a, there's a mosquito in here. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Sorry. Sure there is Greg. Sure. [00:26:21] Speaker A: I promise. They're promised. I promise. And Justin, this is not a signal that there's a problem with the audio because before we went live, Justin, who is, is probably still watching in the background, he's away at the moment. He's in Indonesia at the moment I said, well, if there's any problem with audio, I'll start waving my arms. But that's, I've just given him two false flags and I've completely lost my train of thought. Flipping it so that you've, you know, you didn't have to go start this endeavor as a, as a paid photographer and have to go out and claw your way into some sort of list and gain potential customers. You kind of bypass that in a very organic way that you built these relationships with other people. As you said, everyone in theater industry knows everyone in the theater industry or the performance industry. There's, you know, there's a lot to, a lot to learn from that around, especially when it's around doing something that you love, you know. And as you said, this photography isn't your full time gig. However, looking at your About Us page, I can't imagine how you fit a full time job and all of your creative work into a day. So what is it that you do for a full time job? Earlier you said you were in it. Was it software engineering or development? [00:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I work for a software company and we make the most exciting software imaginable. Telecommunications billing software, super exciting. So. And like I've worked there for a long time. I'm coming up on my 31st anniversary with this company. So you know, it is a long, it is a long term career and it's one that I like and I get to work with really smart people and I have found as I've kind of in that role, I've transitioned from being a software developer to being like I'm a manager and I look after people and most of my day I'm responsible for people, culture, scope, delivery, support. You know, there's a whole bunch of different things that are my responsibility. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:14] Speaker B: And a lot of my peers are very, very technical and they will probably bias on the side of the more technical side of their jobs. I'm more of a people person and now less technical. And so I kind of my work biases fall into communication and coaching, empowerment. This is going to sound very woke. I apologize. But you know, it's like helping people to be the best versions of themselves, you know, whether they're developers on teams or other managers or whatever. And I've actually found that's been really compatible with photography. Like a lot of, a lot of the things like if you're working with someone to photograph them, you need to get to know them, you want to understand what their goals are and you need to be able to build rapport quickly. If you're managing people, it's the same thing. You need to have that rapport and help them to develop the best versions of themselves. So I found that they've, I think I probably would have gone insane if the, that job was the only job I had. So yeah, I was going to ask about that. [00:29:20] Speaker A: You know, which one is the greater pressure release for you? Is it, you know, slugging? Not slugging. You said you loved your day job and obviously you love what you do with your photography. Do you find that one helps to kind of balance out the other? You just said, you know, if it wasn't for this, this job would be, would be driving you mentally, maybe you wouldn't have been there 31 years. How big a part do you think in your tenure did the, your sideline projects, your photography and your, your continuance in performance, how much did they benefit your tenure here? [00:29:51] Speaker B: 100 totally. Like, I think part of it is if you're working for a larger company, you don't have a lot of control necessarily over a lot of parts of it. And as if it, like in my photography business, I've got control over what I do. So there's an amount of, you know, scratch that itch. You know, I, I, I can invest my time where I want. There are problems to solve in the it side of things that are, that are fun, that are satisfying. You know, you get to work with people and see their progression. You get to go through a tricky technical event and get through to the end in a positive way. Like those are good, they're motivating. You know, getting paid isn't terrible either. Like that's, that's quite nice. Especially it was really interesting around Covid time because like the performers that I knew, well, that was like they had a really hard time because obviously Covid didn't really, you know, facilitate live performance in the same way. And photographers that I knew, same thing, right? Like a lot of photographers found ways of flourishing during COVID from the day job perspective. We just transitioned to working from home and there was not a hiccup. Right. So yeah, I was seeing a lot of my friends who were more full time in those other creative industries really struggling and like, you know, a lot of them, a lot of them have, you know, they're fine. A lot of them have transitioned out of creative, creative industries because it was out of necessity and they haven't gone back. So like, I do think those two things, they are in balance with one another. And if I, you know, I need both of them to get by. Yeah, you kind of have to be like, one thing is you have to be really careful about not having the slippery slope of letting your creative job eat into your work job time. Like, there's a commitment that I make to them about the hours that I work. And because I work with people all over the world, my time is like, I can be up for, you know, at six in the morning, I can be in the meeting at 11 at night. Like, it's. My time is fractured, which actually kind of suits the creative side of things, weirdly. So they do work together. It's, there's a, there's a balance that seems to, it seems to work. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's, it's. I love the way that you describe how, you know, I mean, and I think you've got an incredible fortune that you've got a day job that you love and that provides you with security and income and paid leave and all those sort of other benefits that come with a, with a secure job. And then you've got your, you know, you've got your, the other side of the coin, which is your creativity. And you get, you get, you know, granted, probably not as consistent income. I don't think any photographer does, but, you know, you get, you get the benefit of that. You get to explore your creative side. You get to spend time with people who you love and admire in that creative space. I think you've got a really healthy balance and I think half the Internet probably hates you for that right now. [00:32:50] Speaker B: Sorry, half the Internet? [00:32:51] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I think it's always fascinating, you know, and just before we went live, we were having a chat with Justin before he disappeared, and we're talking about other creatives that we know, you know, like, you know, Nick Fletcher, who organizes the Bright Festival for photography every year. He's very big on, on action sports. You know, he goes out and goes up to the base camp of Mount Everest and he go. He does all of these amazing things, but that's just not his job. He works in a very serious corporate space around, you know, recruitment. And it always fascinates me that the, that people have that, you know, the two sides of the coin kind of mentality. And it makes me think of no Face from Batman. Do you know Batman much at all? [00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. [00:33:36] Speaker A: So, yeah, I'm not saying that, you know, the other side of your, of your work is cooked and burnt and molded and, you know, I think you're [00:33:42] Speaker B: calling me an arch villain. I think that's basically what you're doing maybe. [00:33:46] Speaker A: So maybe that will be a superpower. Fantastic by day, software engineer by night. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Look, I saw, I don't know Ben Von Wong if you know his work. He's Canadian, everything photographer. And I'll explain what I mean in a minute. But I saw, like, I've been a fan of his for ages and I saw him speak at a, at an AIPP convention here in Brisbane like 10 years ago and he was talking about how you develop your photography career. And he was saying, and this, this has really stuck with me, this, this thing. He spoke about his whole background. First of all, he was an army brat, right? So his family moved around all the time and every six months he'd be in a new school. So he had to like, as a kid, you know, that's, that's potentially a pretty traumatic thing. But he made that work. He was a martial artist. So that was, you know, something since, again, since he was young, that was just part of what he did. He. Oh man, there's an extra thing. I can't remember. This is terrible. This is the memory thing. This is getting old. He was an engineer as well. So like he studied engineering, I think he did civil engineering. And that was his chosen career path. And then he kind of fell into photography as a, you know, it was just an interest and it became more and more of a thing. And the photographer that he is is completely influenced by all that stuff I just said. So like when you're, when you move around a lot as a kid, you're, you have to develop skills so you can build rapport quickly and connect with people quickly to survive. And he's, you know, quite a funny guy, right? So, you know, that's, that's part of his Persona that came from that martial arts helps you understand how the human body works and how shape works and how flow works. And so he, he kind of understood, like he has a, now an instinctive understanding of, of, of that as an engineer. He learned project management and logistics. So, you know, he, there are skills that a lot of photographers may not pick up in their everyday life, but he had these things drilled into him as a civil engineer. And then when he got into photography, like he's, he's, he works on projects that are usually, I think now if you go and look, he does mostly like social awareness type projects. Like one of his things he's quite concerned about is the amount of plastics that are in the environment. Whether it's, you know, should we be cutting back on using plastic straws or should we Be trying to lobby big like manufacturing to reduce their use of plastic and cut it off at the source and stuff like that. So he does these elaborate projects that use all of those skills and they're kind of unique to how he grew up. Right. So. And you know, you'll hear people at conferences say, oh, you're your own competitive advantage. And I think this is a good example of that. So I kind of figure all the, the random weird stuff that we do in life that gets us to where we are adds up to the skills that we have that we can apply. And so I know in my, in my work life, I like, I have to, you know, build rapport reasonably quickly with people, understand their goals and motivations. And that applies to photography for sure. As an improviser, I've got to listen and react and never fail. Like, you know, you can, you can, you can turn something bad into something really good by refining it on stage. So problem solving on the fly is a thing that I've learned and I think all those things kind of add up to be that's the photographer that I am. And the photographer that you are is going to come from all the random weird crap that you've done in your life. So, you know that, that idea that you've got someone who has this, you know, button down HR job, that's really high pressure. I'm willing to bet a whole bunch of the skills that come from that benefit the other side of things and vice versa. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so too. I think there's lot to be said for the whole person looking at not just what they do today, but where have they come from, what have they achieved, what are they looking ahead to. All that sort of stuff shapes who we are in the moment, even what we're thinking about that's going to happen in the future that informs how we behave and act and think today. And I think, you know, one of the best things about, for me anyway, photography is that it's quite a mindful activity. You know, I don't do a lot of work with clients. I mostly do street. I do some product photography when I'm writing reviews, but I rarely work with people, you know, when I take photos. And I think given my nature, I think that's, that's kind of okay for me. You know, I've identified from my past experiences that I like to do things solo. A bit of a lone wolf when it comes to photography, you know, and I know why and I know where that's come from in my past. Oh, I Just thought of a ripper question and now I've forgotten it. Senior moment. [00:38:44] Speaker B: Excellent. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Not as old as you. I'm not as old as you. All right. Yeah, I'm having one of those moments where I feel older than I am. Oh, gosh, I wish that question. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Just play back the video for the ad and you know, have that break and then, and then we're all good. [00:39:02] Speaker A: So, yeah, we'll go back to the start, actually. We'll just start from scratch. So moving forward from those experiences and building up the photography, you know, you've looking, you've worked in a lot of different genres. You know, like you said, you've tried everything to funnel down to where you're heading. Do you foresee that there's more funneling yet to be done to refine or specialize perhaps? I'm not saying you need to. I'm just curious where your thought process is. [00:39:32] Speaker B: No, it's interesting. I think, I think from the performing arts perspective, I'm kind of where I want to be. Like, and maybe the ratio of different things will change. Like, it's, it's, it's very interesting. So I should give a little more background on kind of, you know, the bits of performing arts photography that I do. So actor and performer headshots, dancer portfolio work, marketing for theater companies, and live production work or even rehearsal photography for theater companies are probably the main kinds of performance stuff that I do. So, you know, and some of that studio based and some of that is you're just capturing a live show and you've got no control and you're using their lights and that sort of thing. So there's a, there's a fair range of stuff I found in the last little while. The demand for, like, especially in the last two or three months, the demand for headshots and dancer portfolio work has probably fall back. Falling back a little bit. And I think that's probably because of, you know, current economic conditions and everyone's going, what's, what are things gonna be like in 36 months? But I've also found theater company's willingness to invest in marketing and production has gone up. And I, it's like, great. So, you know, there's. My ratio of work does fluctuate. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:47] Speaker B: From time to time. And I think that's probably how it's going to be. Like I need to be smart enough to roll with that and make sure I'm making it really easy for people to hire me, I think is one way to look at it. Right. So, yeah. But also I'm not convinced that the niche that I'm in is one that I could stay in exclusively if I were to go full time. And you know, I'm at the, like we're not getting any younger and like, you know, we've got two kids and one's, one just moved out like a month or two ago, the other one could be here for life. I don't know. We'll see. But you know, the kids are getting older and because those things change, like it's inevitable that at some stage my, you know, the day job side of things will change. I don't know when that's going to be. But you know, one potential future path is being a full time photographer and that maybe that's a retirement career, I don't know. But I don't know that I could, that would just be performing arts. So there would probably be an opportunity for me to look at. Right. Well, what else could I do? Would I like to do either? It's, you know, I don't have to enjoy it as much, but I need to make the money or is there something that I would enjoy as much? And it is something that, you know, is enough to, to keep us moving. So I think there probably will be changes to that sort of, you know, the, the niching down. But sometimes there's really weird opportunities that show up. Like, I don't, I've never really considered myself a portrait photographer, which sounds weird because I photograph people. But I started, I have a really weird product offering called the Wild Card portrait. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I saw that. How does that work? [00:42:27] Speaker B: So basically with a wildcard portrait, you book me and I don't want to know anything else. So you show up. Either you show up in the studio ready to go or you show up early and you get ready or whatever. But if you've got a concept, if you've got an outfit, do what you like. Do not warn me. And so someone steps out of the dressing room and they're wearing whatever they're wearing and it's like, okay, I've got 45 minutes to cook up three creative shoots and do that on the fly. So. And at that point it's. The control is now mine. So I will set up, you know, I'll come up with ideas, I will shoot it, I will select the images, I will edit them the way that I like and I will deliver what I choose to deliver. So it's this huge trust exercise and it kind of came from being thrown in the Deep end with theater shoots from time to time and going, oh, yeah, we made that work. I wonder if I can make this a. A product. And had a few friends. Renee Robbins, a amazing photographer in Canada, and she had a similar. She'd have a whole day where basically show up, you know, wear what you want. I'm going to shoot you and get what you get. And it's like, I wonder if I could do that. The very first time I did this, it was with a subject that I'd shot before. And she got changed into the Lorax. So it's like, what, she comes out of the dressing room and she's wearing a fork orange suit with the mustache and, you know, the makeup and everything. And it's like, here we go. And I've got 45 minutes to make three shoots. And it. And it went okay. And I think that's the thing is, [00:44:01] Speaker A: like, it borrows heavily from your improv work, I guess, your ability to think on the feet, to be with. To think on your feet, to be witty, to be responsive, to be, you know, always taking in the output from other people, to then process that very quickly internally and then process it in [00:44:20] Speaker B: action and lean on. Like, you know, we all build up a library of skills, right? So, like, I do a lot of gelled colored photography, so I know that that's, you know, there's a bunch of different buttons I can push there. And it's like, oh, okay, well, how can I use that technique to accentuate whatever this person, whoever they are, what they're wearing or whatever, like, make something new. And sometimes it's like, I have a target in mind. Let's go. And sometimes it's. Let's throw some ingredients in the pot and let's, you know, okay, well, this is interesting. Let's pull that thread. There's definitely a very large fake it till you make it component in that fake it till you make it is not a bad thing. Like, some people kind of go, oh, that just means, you know, you don't know what you're doing. It's like, no, fake it till you make it means you've got enough confidence in yourself that you'll solve this problem actually no matter what. So that's. That's very much for those kinds of environments. That's my shooting style. So that's like, you know, you asked about, hey, you know, niching down or whatever. That is a total sidestep. And it's a, it's kind of a. It's a fun one. And it's been really good. So, you know, having people come in and every single one of them is challenging. And I'm really proud of the images that came out of all of them and the clients like them. So, you know, there's. There probably still is room to discover new, I guess, you know, you call it a product, but it's still an avenue of doing stuff with clients or doing stuff with people. I'm not done figuring that stuff out, that's for sure. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's always evolving, you know, from my limited experience working with clients and how we approach a task. I think it's ever evolving how you approach it and what the output looks like. Because like you said, all of those little factors influence who you become. And, and you never stop becoming someone. You know, I, I believe you never stop that, that process, it slows down a lot when you become an adult. And then when you hit 53, it really slows down. But, you know, it's. It's that, that, that evolution that we need to embrace as creatives, I think. [00:46:23] Speaker B: I think sometimes that stuff slows down because we, you know, as an adult, you kind of like, you're meant to be responsible and you got a home loan and, you know, you know, all that. Right. So there's one of the. Actually, this is a useful technique. So I don't have my own studio. I book like a full day of studio time when I do, and I'll book client from the start of the day. I will book clients, you know, with a small, you know, small gap between them, but I'll book them back to back. But at the end of the day, I reserve usually 2 hours for personal work. And that can be shooting with a friend or whatever. Right. And it's. Those are projects that I'm not taking any money for, and they can fail and it's okay. And if those images never make it out to the world, it's all right. And I've pretty consistently, when I have those studio days, which is probably 15 a year, is probably the amount that I work now, I will try new techniques. And, like, one of the things that I'm fascinated by is doing in camera work, because I kind of. There was a period where I was doing quite a lot of Photoshop storytelling work using composites, and there was very much, oh, that's not real photography from some people. It's like, okay, well, I'm going to show you. I'm going to do some real photography. So there's. I've started experimenting with things that look Photoshopped, but aren't that are pure straight out of camera. And like this weekend coming up, I've got two projects that I've got in the studio where I'm doing a bit of that. So I think, you know, that's, that's part of the staying mentally and creatively young is being open to experimenting and by budgeting time for keeps me doing it. Does that make sense? [00:47:59] Speaker A: Yep, absolutely. Yeah. No, it is, it is important. I like the way that you've, you know, you've hire out a studio space but always allocate some time while you've got that space and the lighting and everything that goes with it. Make the most, make the most of that opportunity. I'm curious about, you know, your current, with your current photography work and your day job. Does the day job ever get in the way of clients who say, oh, well, can you do it on Monday at, you know, 1 1pm or does that get. How do you manage that with, with the tv? [00:48:31] Speaker B: I'm just not available to photograph them. Sorry, it's. I'm just not like that. That's the slippery slope that I will, with one exception, I will not break that. So because I, you know, ultimately I do rely on that job to eat right and so I need to make sure that I'm, I've made a commitment to them that I'm going to do my job well. So, you know, I'm not going to take a photography job. If I, if I really need to do one, I will take, you know, annual leave for that time. The exception is now and again I will do a charity shoot and the company that I work for is actually really, they're quite good. They have two days of volunteer leave per year. So if you, you know, a million different things like if, however, you might want to volunteer to your community and give time back, they support you in that. So there's a, I don't know, there's a project called Christmas Wish which is, I don't know if you know, Karen Alsop in the story Art group, but they, they do this, we do this thing once a year. I think there's, there's probably 15 teams worldwide that do it, where teams will go into hospitals and photograph people that like kids who don't necessarily get the chance to go in and see a shopping center Santa or they, you know, they're kind of on track to have a pretty crappy Christmas, honestly. And maybe they're, you know, their family situation doesn't let them do that or whatever. So these teams of people go into hospitals and photograph them on green screens and then other teams of people go and composite them into or composite for our North American prince into like Christmas pictures and then those are delivered to them. Most like sometimes digital, sometimes is frame prints. In Brisbane we go to a place called Hummingbird House, which is a hospice. So a lot of those kids, you know, they're, they're there all the time. That's, that's where they live or you know, they, they just don't, for whatever reason, for whatever, you know, long term health situation they have, they're never going to be able to go and have Santa Claus shopping center stuff or for that matter go into a traditional portrait studio and get family photos taken. So that's one of those things that we've, we've, I think, I think we've been doing it for about seven years. It's, that's probably the example where it's like, okay, day job, you're going to give me that time. And they're okay with it. But it's being transparent with work about it is I think really important. So yeah, you never want to be in the situation. Well, for me, I don't want to be in a situation where I feel like I'm doing the wrong. I just to want straight Canadian. I don't want to feel like I'm doing the wrong thing and sneaking around. That just makes me super anxious. So I'd rather just be open with people. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Yep. No, I think that's important. Most definitely. And so when you look at maybe transitioning away from your day job more into that, what have you considered? I think you mentioned earlier that you couldn't just do the concept. There'd have to be some other projects ongoing. Have you thought about other genres that you haven't shot that you'd like to experiment with, as you say? [00:51:35] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's like, I think right now I can experiment. Okay. And it's low risk. So, you know, if I ever push that button, it will be to move into something that I have experimented with that I know is not as high risk. So like if I were to choose to go into family photography, which I, you know, then I will be very sure that's the thing that I can do. And I, you know, whether it's your ability to photograph under those conditions or you know, interrelate with people, which I'm usually pretty good at, is, you know, the whole building report quickly thing. So I want to make sure that I've, I'm ready to do that. I Think it's just a big scary call, you know, like. And I don't think I'm. I'm. I'm not grown up enough to. Or maybe I'm too grown up to make that call. You know, it's like, it's a hard thing. So the time will be right someday and I'll take it, but I don't know when that is. [00:52:29] Speaker A: You'll know. But I think it's wonderful, wonderful that for now, it's not like you're desperately trying to get out of this day job. Touching it ideas. It's a process that you've developed. You're developing and evolving over time. And I think it's wonderful that you have a great relationship with your current job, you know, because it's. It, it. I imagine it removes that pressure that the photography, it's all or nothing, you know, that you've got this day job that you love. Happy to do work. You're happy to go to work. You work around it for your other, your other tasks and projects. And speaking of your other stuff, going back to your obnoxiously long About Us [00:53:09] Speaker B: page, [00:53:13] Speaker A: and there's a question in the chat, actually, I'll just, I'll just jump to this question very quickly. There's a couple of other comments here from people. Julie Power. Yes, we had an amazing time. Well, your photos certainly tell that story. Julia, you took some gorgeous, gorgeous images. Shane Henderson's here. G', day, Wookie. Roland. K2Z AI has killed headshots. We'll come back to that. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Come back to that. I got so many. [00:53:41] Speaker A: We'll come back to that. Yeah, I want to hear that. Absolutely. This from Maya hall and Maya. Maya. I think it's Maya. Maya. Thank you. Maya sent us an email to Justin and Justin, forward it to me. Just providing some feedback on the podcast and maybe some ideas about things that we could include in future episodes. So thank you so much for sending that through. It means the world to me. We do what we do for our viewers, you know, and to get someone who takes the time to write us an email or send us a message, you know, it's. It's priceless. It really is priceless. It means that we're doing the right thing. You know, we're on a good wicket. Anyway, so Maya says, hi, Greg and Chris. This is fascinating conversation. Chris is fabulous, insightful communicator. Has he ever taught photography workshops or considerate. So that leads me to the question about your obnoxiously long About Us page. You've done A lot of stuff. You're a professional judge here, and in New Zealand you've entered copious amounts of competitions and photography prize events. And I want a sub question, just very quickly. What is the difference between a photography competition and a photography prize? [00:54:56] Speaker B: I'm not sure there is one, actually. So you're, you're, you're asking about the Australian Photographic Prize? Probably, and. Yes, yeah, yeah, I think prize probably has connotations of like, art prize. It probably feels a little more prestigious, but I think they're, they're very similar things. So. Yeah, it's an unsatisfying answer, maybe, but, [00:55:16] Speaker A: you know, no, no, it's a perfect answer. No, that's great. And so there's a lot of. There's a lot that you contribute to that supports other photographers in, in meaningful ways. So why is that important for you to do as a photographer, as a, you know, as a working photographer? Why is that something that you strive to maybe not so much tick off list, but to continually contribute to the dialogue around photography? [00:55:45] Speaker B: So I don't know that I set out to do that. Like, I don't know that that's, oh, I have to go and teach people today, you know, or whatever. I think that's. You fall into stuff that interests you. So with things like, okay, the judging, for example. So one of the things that I really like about the competitions that I judge with is the educational side of things. And I'm really lucky to be in a position with the Australian Photographic Prize. I'm the director of judging for that. So I get to recruit judges and help to set the tone about how I want them to speak to images and recruit people that are naturally good with that. So. So, you know, yes, it is a business. Yes, people pay money to enter in. There's prizes and all that stuff. But a really important part of it is helping people move the needle on their own photography skills. So we do. Like, we've just. We've had three image critiques in the last month that have just, you know, filled up immediately. And we've had an international panel of judges do live judging on that for two hours. We've got one more of those coming, and then we have our live judging in July. And yes, we're assessing, but a really big part of it is talking about images and talking about what are the successful choices that someone made. And you try and figure out what was their goal, what did they do that really worked for that? Talk about that. What is the next thing they might want to do a little bit Differently to help them get the outcome that they wanted. That feels really good when you can help people potentially with I guess, moving to the next step and always learning stuff. And I know that's something that I valued when I was coming through. So like, you know, yeah, I did training courses. Yes, I went to conferences and lectures. I have my work judged, leaned on mentors for advice with photography or whatever. I think everyone does a bit of that and then maybe it becomes natural that when you start to learn a few things you find ways of, of contributing back to that chat. Maya's question was interesting. Like there was the. Have you ever taught photography workshops? Man? That's where imposter syndrome pokes me in the face. It's like who is gonna, who is gonna pay money for me to talk about all the random crap that I know? Like that's probably one where I'm still very much going, you know. But I guess one of the, one of the fun things is because I do this judging for international stuff often they at 10 Thomas conferences. So I've, I speak all over the place now. Like I've had the good fortune to teach in London for the last couple of years at the Society of Photographers convention in January. And like not, not this year but last year I taught a four hour hands on long exposure photography class which if, if you've hunted through my portfolio and you've seen like the spinny rainbow circle in camera thing, we, we did one of those and we did it, you know, so everyone got to watch and we all got to do it together. So yeah, I really do like teaching and speaking and that sort of thing. Running workshops as a, as a regular thing is a time consuming beast. Right? Like the, to get the material together, to be able to really work with photographers at all skill levels using all different kinds of equipment and then devote that time in life to doing it. And it's, I've, I found that really difficult to, to start that journey. So I think it's something that I need to spend more time on, I need to get good at. But it's, it's one of those future plans things that with no date on it, it's just like that would be a good thing to get better at. So yeah, that's, that's, that's going to [00:59:32] Speaker A: go and so what, what would be your advice to say to someone who is an experienced photographer? Great body of work, you know, well beyond the beginner stage, you know, well into prothusias maybe, but sitting on the fence about maybe entering a competition Or a prize. What would be your, your advice to those, you know, who is, you know, like, like me, who has imposter syndrome? It's like, oh, I don't think anyone's gonna like it. Like, what? [00:59:59] Speaker B: Right? [01:00:00] Speaker A: What would that be? [01:00:02] Speaker B: So, like, the really short advice is just have a crack and here's the longer advice. And this is kind of like, I'm an awards junkie. I will out myself now. I find it, you know, it's fun, it's motivating. But I look back on the first time that I ever entered a photo competition was in 2012. And I was certain when I entered that work that I was going to win all of the things and everyone's going to go, oh, my gosh, who was this new face on the scene? And I sucked. Like, you know, the judges correctly hammered my work and going back and looking at it later, and this is probably, maybe not as gentle judging as we might encourage now. It was probably a little bit harsher. But going back and having a look at the scores that I got, they might have been even a little bit generous. So. But it's one of those things where I found. [01:00:53] Speaker A: Maybe it was. [01:00:54] Speaker B: Maybe I get it. I took again, look at all this. Well, it's anonymous. I don't know who they're judging actually. So this has got nothing to do with. I definitely found that when you have someone who is giving you objective feedback, it helps you. And okay, so like, you can tell people all day long, hey, make sure you're thinking about this when you photograph. But until your next been on the line and you've missed out on something you wanted to because of that, it doesn't. That lesson isn't as painful. So I'm certain that I've had an image judged and a judge said, you know, it's a shame those feet are cut off. And it's like, oh, my gosh. And I will never, ever cut someone's feet off again. You know, so there's. There's this process when you, like, kind of get into the swing of things with entering competitions. And when you first start, it's really weird because you don't know how the rules work. And it feels really weird. And you know, who's gonna look at my image and. But then you've got to curate your work and you gotta decide, like, am I entering client work or am I creating new work? And identify what you're gonna enter, which is, you know, what's like portfolio. When you build a portfolio, it's the same kind of skills. How do you curate it down to a small set that's gonna be strong? You gotta take each of those pieces and try and make them as strong as they can be because you're gonna have a picky judge look at them. And when you get good at that process, that's like, you know, you learn really good skills trying to make images individually as strong as they can be, then you submit them, then you get, you know, judged and you get feedback. And, like, winning a title or whatever, you've got no control over that because you can't control what anyone else enters. Like, you just can't. So, you know, anyone who walks away from a competition, it's like, yeah, it's because the only way to, like, to make sure you win is by knocking off all the other people who are going to enter. Right. You know, you don't have any control over that. You're competing with you. You're competing with you of a year ago. Like, have you learned since then? Yeah, I. There. There are things that I've had to learn as I've gone through and, you know, entered photo competitions that have absolutely improved the work I deliver for clients. So. Okay, that's good. You know, if I've. If I've invested my time in this, you know, composite monstrosity for an award, and I've, like. I remember I did an image a while back that had, like, a ship on the ocean and, you know, there's waves rocking and all kinds of stuff. And that's where I kind of learned about blend modes in Photoshop. So it was really painful at the time, but it's those skills now that have carried through. There's things that I've learned getting those images to be really strong that now it's elevated the client work that I do. So I think it's made me a better photographer. I think getting into judging and having to be able to. Having to articulate. Your having to come up with an opinion very quickly and articulate it clearly to people has made me a better thinker when it comes to my own photographs as well. So, you know, for me, there have been a whole lot of benefits. I think the. The competition side of things, though, if you're open to getting feedback, it's a good entering your work and, you know, putting yourself out there and it's. It's really personal. Right? I mean, like, when you enter work in a competition, you're not entering, oh, just throw any old garbage in. You're entering the work. You're the. You're the proudest of. And so you're probably the most personally invested in it. And that's really vulnerable. If you can take lessons from that and you may even disagree with what judges say. And that's totally okay as long as you understand what, you know, what were they trying to get at? Like, what was they, they weren't saying it to be mean. Judges want to see work do really well. Like, yeah, we don't want to knock anything down. Understand where their advice is coming from and then see how you can apply it. I've always found that to be really useful. So to me, that's one of the motivations that I've had with competition. [01:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's interesting. You know, we've interviewed obviously quite a lot of guests here on the Camera Life podcast, but every now and then we'll talk to someone and Mika Boynton comes to mind very quickly. You know, when she started out in photography, she was, she was a teacher or librarian in the top end. And she was very isolated. You know, she was isolated from other photographers, she was isolated from, you know, peers to give her feedback and support. And so she used competitions as a means to get that connectivity and that feedback to enhance her craft. I mean, and now she's a, you know, she's a judge herself. She's an award winning, amazing photographer. You know, she's got her own gallery with Matt. Like, that's, that's amazing. And you know, when we spoke to her, that, that process and that opportunity presented by competitions and receiving, you know, judges commentary and feedback, that no doubt that that was a major contributor to her elevation as a creative, which is, and like I said, we've had, we've had other similar stories. I, I don't think I've ever entered a photo in a competition over the years. And I don't know if that's because of that imposter syndrome. I fear the feedback, I fear the rejection. And it's also this, you know, that I'll be found out as a fraud, that I run a photography podcast. I talk to, you know, photographers all over the world, yet I take photos. You know, like, it's, it's that whole, it's that whole negativity in the mindset that often when I think about it, that and the fact that I have to pay to submit a photo to then win a competition, I think that's, that's a Ponzi scheme. I'm sure it is, but, but yeah. Now speaking of Mika, we've got Matt in the chat. What did he have to say? I think that was on the comment of who's going to pay you. [01:06:39] Speaker B: Oh, that'd be right. Matt. Okay, so full disclosure piece. Yeah. Matt. I was Matt's best man when they. Mika and Matt got married not too long ago, so. Of course you're gonna say that, Matt. Thank you. Matt and Mika are two of the most articulate, caring, insightful photography judges you will ever come across. Yeah. [01:07:01] Speaker A: And people in general, they're delightful. [01:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. [01:07:05] Speaker A: Sickeningly. Sickeningly delightful. [01:07:07] Speaker B: I know, right? [01:07:10] Speaker A: How can anyone be that nice all the time, let alone two of them? [01:07:14] Speaker B: Right. [01:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:16] Speaker B: That's so good. Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker A: A couple of other comments here from Julie. Again, he who will pay me to teach the crap. I know. I love it. Imposter syndrome can hit hard. Yeah, it's a. And it's interesting, Julie, that so many photographers that we speak to or that I speak to in one way or another will indicate that imposter syndrome, you know, they might ask, oh, why would you want to interview me? Or, oh, I don't know if I. Or they'll start to jump into, oh, but my Instagram's not up to date. And, oh, the images on my website are old. And, you know, and it's interesting to see that visual creatives often have that trouble. Couple more comments here from Roland. I can't read it. Don't let negative judgment demotivate you. Indeed. And it's hard not to sometimes. And, you know, and a lot of that comes back to the way that you were raised around feedback, the way that you, you know, have dealt with the world, how employers have treated you, how teachers have treated you. There can be a lot that can influence how you receive negative judgment and what you turn that into. And final comment there from Roland. Competition focuses technique. Roland, thanks for your comments. [01:08:33] Speaker B: Nice way of saying that. [01:08:34] Speaker A: It is. I'm not sure if you've watched the Camera Life podcast before. I don't. I don't recognize the name, but let us know. Where are you from? Where are you watching or listening to us from right now? Always curious to know [01:08:48] Speaker B: that negative judgment comment was really interesting because, like, you know, we have seen competitions where there are definitely judges who will use negative language and can make an entrant feel small. And I've been in that spot, you know, where it's like, if you had any imposter syndrome, it's just times 10 now because you've had someone say this thing. And that's one things where, like, we coach quite a lot on is I want someone after they've. After you've critiqued an image, I want them to be energized. I want them to be excited about the next thing they're going to do. And I think when you're genuinely enthusiastic about photography and images and you're open to looking at new work and you recognize people are at different stages of the journey, you can put words together like that. You can hold people to a standard of photography and be kind and empathetic about it. So that negative judgment thing, Roland, that you talked about, that is a potential bad outcome from competition if. If judges are maybe not being really thoughtful about how they provide feedback. [01:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I don't think that feedback should ever take the form of negative judgment. You know, I get a lot of that from my mother. That's enough. But it is interesting that, you know, often you'll come across that. And, you know, we see that in. In all sorts of different industries, employers sometimes are negative in how they deliver feedback to their employees. You know, I worked in. Course I worked in Optus, actually. And I hate you for the billing system comment earlier because telecommunication billing systems are horrendous. They always have been, and I'm sure they probably always will be. [01:10:28] Speaker B: We should talk after the live stream because. Anyway, we'll talk. [01:10:33] Speaker A: We'll talk. [01:10:34] Speaker B: Optus CEO for a while. Their name was Chris Anderson with a ch. Just saying. Not the same person, same. So, you know, the different. Different prescription. [01:10:44] Speaker A: So was that the one that resigned after they leaked everyone's data? No, that was. That was a different one, wasn't it? [01:10:50] Speaker B: That was a newer one. Yeah, I think so. [01:10:51] Speaker A: There was a newer one. Yeah, absolutely. We've gotten very much off off topic here. Judges, mentoring and workshops. Is that something you'd like to. To increase over time, do you think? [01:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I do mentoring now, which is usually once someone has sought me out, it's because there's something that I do that resonates with them and I don't do a lot of it. But for, you know, for the right client, we'll sit down and spend time together. And I think that's really good. And mentoring is never about me telling someone what to do. Always, you know, it's about helping someone find what they need in themselves and unlocking it, and everyone's got that, so that's cool. I. I think I do need to. I need to practice the teaching and the workshop thing more because I do find that quite intimidating. Maya's gonna pay as well. [01:11:39] Speaker A: That's good. Maya's Gonna pay you already got people offering to throw money at you. [01:11:43] Speaker B: Fantastic. Yeah, I'm not gonna charge Pat, so, you know, like, charge him. [01:11:50] Speaker A: Maybe just get him to cook you like some pork belly or something. I hear he's pretty good. [01:11:55] Speaker B: Yes, he has cooked the pork belly before. It's very good. [01:11:58] Speaker A: I think you're entitled to another one just for that. [01:12:01] Speaker B: Take some notes, Matt. Pork belly better be on the list. [01:12:04] Speaker A: So, you know, and what do you think? You know, speaking of mentors, I think it's a really interesting idea, mentorship. Do you think that there's enough recognition or enough awareness within professional photographic community that a mentor. Having a mentor. Sorry, having a mentor mentee relationship where you're the mentor, do you think there's enough awareness of the value that that holds not just for the mentee, but for the person giving the advice? Because, you know, it's that like you said, a mentor relationship should never be about telling someone to do. It should be a conversation fleshing out of ideas, brains, you know, that sort of stuff. [01:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good question because I think sometimes, like when you use the word mentor, it puts you into a box, right. And you have an expectation of what it looks like. But I think I've had and continue to have lots of opportunities where I can either accept mentoring or give mentoring in ways that are super organic. Like, really good example. There's a friend of mine, Rachel, who is a great photographer and is becoming a great friend and she was studying at TAFE last year and I do some, occasionally I'll lecture and do guest lectures or judge at this, their competitions and stuff like that. So I kind of know the TAFE crowd reasonably well and have made friends with lots of the students. And one of the things that they'll say, hey, can I come in and assist? Like, sure. Like, you know, come in and you can just watch if you want. You can do what? You know, just watch me go through stuff with clients. Even when people do that, it's like, okay, watching any other photographer work is incredibly insightful. Maybe not because it's good, maybe you'll learn things you shouldn't do, but you know, you're still going to learn a lot when you watch someone else work. Rachel's one of those ones who came into the studio and was hands on. And I'd say, like, there's aspects of our working relationship that is. Feels like a mentor mentee thing, but we're also just peers and we, we work together really effectively and is a. She's a good creative person to bounce off of. And I'm learning from her while she's learning from me. So, you know, I, I think sometimes, like, I don't want to box people by saying mentor mentee, because it just, you know, it, it's very Jedi Master Padawan. You know, it's like that actually. [01:14:25] Speaker A: It indicates that I think the, the social or the industry concept sometimes leans too heavily towards mentor and then. Or the mentees are new, they're young, they're green, they don't know their stuff yet. But that, that never has to be the case. Like you said, you can work with an equally, if not more experienced photographer than yourself and you will continue to learn things and they'll continue to learn from you. [01:14:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:14:53] Speaker A: So I think that's one very important note. Matt Palmer has agreed to. To cook you some roast meats. [01:15:01] Speaker B: Fantastic. Excellent. [01:15:02] Speaker A: He promised that to me too, last year. So beware. I mean, you know Matt obviously very well, but he promised me, he promised me some sort of delicious cooked meats at Beef up last year, and I just ran out of time. So I think that means that this coming year I get two lots of cooked. [01:15:16] Speaker B: I think you're right. I think you're right. [01:15:18] Speaker A: I've banked, I've saved ahead kind of thing, you know. [01:15:21] Speaker B: Excellent. I should have hit that up for a print because, like, one of the, like. Okay, so this is, this is totally a divergence. Like, you can see this prints on the wall. None of those prints are mine. I print swap with people and I like, I'm really lucky that I get to meet photographers from all over the place that do incredible work. And sometimes it's like, hey, would you be interested in the print swap? Like, sure. So, you know, I value their work, they value my work. We send each other prints and then they go up on the wall. So I kind of had this art gallery in the house and they're all on like these Velcro, like 3M Velcro strips so I can move the frames around and change, change the gallery from time to time. And like, I have a couple of my pieces up on the wall, but not many. But I don't have a Matt Palmer yet, so, you know, neither do I, probably. I don't make it either. [01:16:10] Speaker A: Who have I got? I've got a Bruce Moyle. [01:16:13] Speaker B: You can see a Bruce Moyle, right? Oh, that's a Bruce mole right there. [01:16:16] Speaker A: So, yeah, nice. Yeah, Bruce came to Melbourne last year, apparently, if it was before or after bfop. Anyway, we went for a street walk and we went to the state library and did some intentional motion blur work, which obviously Bruce is a master of. And then he sent me a print of it. One of the shots that he took on the day. Yeah, we've, you know, we framed it and it's. We've got quite a lot of framed art. Not, not so much all photos and prints and things like that. And yeah, Bruce's image takes pride of place. And then earlier this week, my friend Exe gave me a print. Well, he didn't give it to me. I actually paid him for it because his. Now my cords are tangled. Hang on. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Sorry guys, [01:17:04] Speaker A: it's all falling apart. [01:17:06] Speaker B: Oh, man. Technology is not everyone's friend. Always. [01:17:13] Speaker A: Wow, such a professional, professional outfit. We are here on the Camera Live podcast. So Etsy gave me a. A print of like one of those little underground strip malls in Japan, which I absolutely love. And I bought that off him. So I'm going to have that up on the wall soon. [01:17:28] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. [01:17:29] Speaker A: Don't have a Matt Palmer. I don't have a Mica Boynton. There's lots of work I don't have. But I love the idea of a print swap. I think that's a really cool idea. [01:17:39] Speaker B: Greg, would you like to do a print swap? [01:17:42] Speaker A: I would love to do a print swap. [01:17:44] Speaker B: Excellent. Let's do that. [01:17:46] Speaker A: So what are the boundaries? What are the rules? What are we, what are we setting here? [01:17:52] Speaker B: Okay, so I can't print swap anything that I sell as a limited edition print and which is one print. So, you know, that's nothing. That's pretty small. There's no boundaries. Like when. So when this. And I just saw Julie's comment, like people will not be worried in, in weird stuff. Are interested in weird stuff. I'm totally interested in weird stuff. Like, you know, if you've seen Bruce Moyles work, all of his work is weird stuff. Like that's, that's the fun. Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I'll say to someone, hey, just, you know, go through my website, go through my awards page because it's kind of the ones that I've. That are usually the most interesting or whatever. And you find something you like, let me know and I'll send you a print and vice versa. Those are the rules. There's no rules. That's great. [01:18:37] Speaker A: I love it. [01:18:37] Speaker B: So I, Steve Scalone, who's unfortunately passed away, amazing, amazing human, amazing commercial photographer, amazing lands like architectural landscape photographer. Years and years ago he was a judge at Appa and one of my prints was up being judged. And he went bananas for it, which was great. And I still have the recording of him speaking through the challenge where he talked through this thing and, like, after judging was done and, like, the wrap parties happening and, like, this is, like, it's. It's Steve's cologne. Oh, my gosh. Like, you know, this guy's an absolute legend. There's work of his that I adore, and he's just said nice things about my thing. So I went up and introduced myself at the after party, and then, you know, and it was this image of mine. He's like, oh, wow, do you want to do a print swap? And it's like, okay, so this. This person whose work I massively respect wants my work on their wall, and I get to have a piece of theirs? Yes, please. I'm into that. [01:19:38] Speaker A: And that's a really cool idea. Love it. [01:19:41] Speaker B: And it's like, since then, it's like, this is. It's. It's. It's great. Like. And. [01:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:47] Speaker B: So, yeah, like, if you're watching and this is a thing you're interested in doing, go find people that you respect who you know. And you never know, just offer it. What's the worst I can do, say no? But they probably aren't. They're probably considering digital file. It's like. It's a thing. Well, see, I like to print it. I like to send the print. [01:20:04] Speaker A: I see you send it for family, too. [01:20:08] Speaker B: I print it. I want to choose the paper that it's on, you know, like, I want to have a physical thing because, like, how excited do you get when you get something in the mail versus something in your email? Like, I. That's very true. It's like, getting a print in the mail is exciting. Getting a physical thing the other person touched is really cool. So that is really cool. Okay, that's. I think that's one of my rules then. Sorry, I didn't. I didn't realize I had rules, but I guess that's one of them. [01:20:33] Speaker A: It's an evolving thing. Let's. Let's set some boundaries. Yeah, I'm gonna make a note of it. [01:20:41] Speaker B: All right. [01:20:42] Speaker A: I think it's a lovely idea. I think it's really cool because a. It fosters a stronger relationship between yourself and that artist. You know, you're showing each other a mutual level of respect. It's also a good sort of kind of like a bit of a tool in understanding yourself, because you've got to make a choice based on what you know about this person and what you know, about your own work and you, you know, because what you're doing is you're sending them a story or a message in a print. You know, this is what, this is what I thought of you thought, this is what I thought when I was thinking about swapping a print with you in particular. You know, because I imagine it's not a random process. It's, you know, you put a bit of thought and time into understanding why. What it is you want to give them and why sometimes people, there's a [01:21:28] Speaker B: specific thing they want as well, like. Oh yeah, and I'm open to that. Like there's so. Okay, this is weird. I got an example right here. So there's a print that I'm about to send for someone on a print swap and you can't see because it's in a, it's in a thing and it's. Oh yeah, I'll tell you this, I'll tell you the story about it. So there's a friend of mine years and years ago who was quite unwell and she was in the hospital and she had multiple tumors doing their thing. And you know, I think, I don't know that her life expectancy was bad, but, you know, it was definitely a traumatic thing that could have gone either way. But the person that she put out on social media was always happy and always positive and she'd named her tumors and she was quite open about what was going on and it was almost like she'd. Despite all this really crappy stuff that was happening, she'd kind of built a happy place around her whether, you know, and now she's doing great, right? So like, life is good. But I was kind of taken with that idea that you can build an environment for yourself in your head that helps to push back on the shit that's happening in life and made this image which someone saw a few months ago at a workshop I was teaching, I taught a two day judging intensive workshop for the Photographic Society of Queensland here for club judges. And there was one person there and I'm not going to go into too much detail, but it pushed buttons about their life and they saw it and this is a really rare and unusual reaction. They saw it, they couldn't say anything and they started crying and because it just, it showed up in their face at the right time and it snuck in past their walls and, you know, it accessed something that was really primal and really emotional and it's like, okay, well I have, I have to send that person this print. You know, I think Although I value that work because I made it, they value it for a totally different reason. So I think they, you know, they've selected that image. I think so, yes. Sometimes I'll choose, but more often I want someone to choose something that's meaningful for them. And sometimes it can be a really big deal. [01:23:42] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think, you know, at its. At its core, it's such a beautiful way to build connection and community, you know, [01:23:53] Speaker B: and we're visual communicators. Right. This is the plan. Right. So, yeah. [01:23:58] Speaker A: But we're often terrible about sharing our stories with each other, especially through images, because me, I'm not sure why we don't do that more. It is interesting. Although I guess with. With my closer friends, like with Justin and Jim and Exe and other photographers who I work with, I'll send photos directly to them. And it also comes back to that, that whole thing around people who share all of their work on social media and on their website versus those who. Who only put the stuff that they think people want to see. [01:24:31] Speaker B: Right. [01:24:32] Speaker A: And I've gotten into a point. I've gotten to a stage with some of my street art where I'm not even posting it anywhere. I'm just. I took it, I edited it, and it was just. For me, it didn't go anywhere. [01:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:44] Speaker A: You know, it was just something that I wanted to hold close. And it's almost a little bit of anchoring, you know, for me that I don't have to share it all. I don't have to put it on a screen where people are going to look at it for 2.3 seconds and flick past. I don't need to feed that system necessarily. [01:25:04] Speaker B: There's an extrovert, introvert thing there. Right. As well. [01:25:06] Speaker A: It is, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's this swinging door. [01:25:12] Speaker B: Yeah. When you do, like the Myers Briggs test, I test way on the extrovert side, which is weird because I'm sure I wouldn't have as a kid, but, you know, definitely extroverted now. And I will share all kinds of stuff on social media, including on the, you know, the business account. I'm saying this because it's not super serious. Like, I'll share the work that I do for clients or they'll do collab posts or whatever. I will share random stuff. I will share personal work. You know, if it's an awards, like, yeah, I'll share awards work because that's. It's a credibility marker. Right. If someone's. If, if you're trying to sell your work to someone and you're promising them you're going to make something cool that doesn't exist yet. You kind of want them to have faith the money they're going to spend is well spent. Awards are, it's kind of the cream [01:25:55] Speaker A: of your crop, isn't it? [01:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:56] Speaker A: That award stuff. Yeah. [01:25:58] Speaker B: And it's showing that, hey, there's a. There's an independent third party that thinks this work is all right, so maybe you're safe spending your money here. So like it is worth me advertising that stuff. But I will share personal work or experimentation that maybe didn't work very well or whatever. Like I tend to. I'm probably an oversharer. So, you know, that stuff does, does get out a little bit. [01:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's an interesting concept over sharing, especially on socials, you know, because we all know people who just maybe once in. Once in a week or two, you'll see something from them provided the algorithm gets it to you and other people will show, will share every moment of every day almost, you know, in. In different. For different reasons and in different forms. Yeah, it's social media. It always. I always think of the Bo Burnham's Inside album and Netflix show that came out. Was it during COVID or just after Covert? It was all about being locked away and being, you know, it's very self deprecating in a lot of ways because of that, that whole situation. But he does a song called White Women of Instagram and it's about these perfect little maquettes or setups where you know, like a perfect cup of coffee on a little table with some autumn leaves. You know, it's that whole kind of staged life. And every time I see those sorts of. I always think of his song because he just sort of nails that whole, you know, it's a facade, it's a pastiche of what life really is. [01:27:26] Speaker B: Right. [01:27:26] Speaker A: It's interesting commentary. Anyway, I'm rambling. Let me look at some comments. Phil Thompson's Sounds interesting guys. You're right about the mutual respect plus the interesting. It is interesting to see and appreciate others ideas. It also tends to inspire me to try another form of photography. And it's a really good point, Phil. We talked about on Monday night how I went to the Fujifilm Australia Creator Summit here in Melbourne on the weekend. And whilst it was beautiful to see, they had a whole bunch of different little mini workshops in these little locations. And whilst it was amazing to see and photograph those experiences, it was, I found it even more interesting watching how other people take their photos, because we often don't get to see that, you know, and actually watching how they move and where they position themselves and whether they're shooting from low or high or. And I got a lot of inspiration from that. In fact, I did a workshop in the morning that Charlie Blevins of Fujifilm Australia hosted with Taiko drummers. They had three Taiko Japanese drummers. And such an incredible feeling, like. Because we were only like 2 meters away from the drums and you could just feel this. This air pressure pumping into your. Into your chest. [01:28:46] Speaker B: Chest. [01:28:46] Speaker A: Like. It was inescapable. It was so visceral. It was amazing. And I did the first one and then I wasn't overly happy with the shots I did, but I was watching other photographers as well and seeing what they were doing. And then by the second time in the afternoon when he ran the workshop, I really wanted to photograph it again and do it better. And just from observing my peers, you know, people I knew on the other side of the area, you know, watching how they were working, it was really fascinating and I took a lot of inspiration from it, you know. [01:29:14] Speaker B: No, that makes sense. [01:29:15] Speaker A: Yeah. What else we got Phil Thompson. Also, Greg, thanks for. Oh, thanks for that encouraging comment on the train shot. Amongst my fog shots yesterday, Phil dropped a couple of. A handful of really nice landscape shots. But also there was like a. Like a bridge. And he'd done. He'd shot V Line trains, which is like our country services in Victoria with a slow shutter speed. And just the outcome and the effect is absolutely beautiful. Keep it up, mate. Roland's back. I've never disregarded any of my own photographs. Maybe a few digital images, but I keep all prints because maybe one day they will mean something. Yeah. How do you store them? Where do you keep them? Are you actually talking about physical prints? Are you shooting only in film or do you print all your digitals? Let us know. Roland. Really fascinating point to make and old mate, Nev. G', day, Nev, from Western Australia. I have to admit I share a fair bit, but a lot of the people that follow me actually really look forward to seeing my posts. And a lot of them are elderly people in my local community. Yeah, that's. That's a good call there, Nev. Because, you know, where you live is such a vast space and I imagine people, even people with like, mobility impairment or that just can't get themselves around, they don't have a car, whatever it may be, will love to see those images of the local area, the landscapes and the aerial shots that they otherwise can't get to see themselves. So I think there's, there's an important element there. It kind of ties into what I often say to people that as a photographer, I feel we have an obligation to document what is before it becomes what was. And yes, sharing online can certainly contribute to that. And Roland's come back with big boxes and drives. Yeah, I can imagine, I can imagine. There was a question, there was a question or a comment earlier about AI that we said that we would come back to. I'm just trying to. [01:31:14] Speaker B: AI has killed headshots, I think, is what it was. [01:31:17] Speaker A: AI's killed headshot. Now, that was not a plant. All right, Chris. I did. [01:31:21] Speaker B: No, no, no. And it's funny because, like you asked before about, hey, you know, if you go full time, what are you going to get into? And part of my brain's going, well, what's still going to be viable once AI takes over? Because it is changing things. And I kind of assume that if you are doing. There are types of commercial photography that will be eaten up partially by AI. But I think a lot of domestic photography that requires authenticity won't. Like, you know, you're not going to have a. Can you generate some pictures of my wedding? You know, like, wedding photographers are probably okay. Like, that's a. You don't want to have a rendered, you know, for now, you don't want to have a rendered picture of your dog or your baby or whatever. Yeah, the headshots thing is really interesting. So, like, and the tools are good now, right, like, so you can generate AI headshots that. Look, they're still a little uncanny valley, but, you know, they're playing right on the edges of that. There are, there are a couple of gotchas. One of them is, I still think people can sniff that stuff out. Like, I, I, I, I. It's getting harder for sure. But yeah, like, actually you can look, you know. [01:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's a good. I just wanted to focus on that little point just for a moment about how people, at the moment, people can sniff it out mostly. But Fujifilm Australia sent me some stats based on some experience surveys that they did. And it was something like 60 of the people surveyed admitted that it was getting harder to determine on social media what was a real image and what was AI. Yep, that it's getting to like that. Like you said, there's still a lot of uncanny valley out there. There's still a lot of, you know, six fingers showing up from time to time. And big corporations are making Massive stuff ups with AI advertising, you know, and they just get called out straight away because they're not. And it's not that uncanny, uncanny value thing. Where is it real? Isn't it real? It's, it's glaringly obvious emissions or inclusions, you know, where someone will suddenly have their arm around a person plus they're holding a camera with two hands, you know. [01:33:30] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:33:31] Speaker A: You know, it's that kind of ludicrous. It's like, who in marketing didn't pick up on that? And then other people say, well, they're doing that on purpose. Well, no, no, as a, as a. Let's, let's get people talking about it, you know. [01:33:46] Speaker B: Right. [01:33:47] Speaker A: Was it Coca Cola did. Was either Coca Cola or Apple and I think it was Coca Cola. Every year they do a Christmas, a big Christmas kind of image of Santa and the trucks or the slaves. And the last two years they've used AI and both times they've been called out for the shoddiness of the image making. But then someone pointed out to me, well maybe that's what Coca Cola wants you to think. [01:34:08] Speaker B: Right. [01:34:08] Speaker A: But either way, it's generating conversation about Coca Cola. People are saying Coca Cola over and over again. [01:34:13] Speaker B: That's true. [01:34:14] Speaker A: There is loud. It starts showing up on her phone, [01:34:17] Speaker B: you know, that's it. And now you're in the algorithm again. I've started like when I see an, an ad that is up and like you see it in theater a lot. Like there's, and I get it because it is, it's way cheaper for someone to go out and render a picture than it is to get a photographer to come in and do stuff. It is like. And if you're, if you're working on a really tight budget and theater companies do, and you can get something that is 80% as good, making that number up for a much lower amount of money, would you do it? And like you see people do it, I start to have a reaction as a consumer to go, there's, I don't know, maybe it's the photographer. Me talking was like, you don't believe in your product enough to photograph real people. Like it's going to get harder to tell. There is one of the tricky things with AI is who owns that image. So if you are doing a headshot, if you get an AI tool to generate a headshot depending on where you live, copyright restrictions, that image is now fair game for someone to use on a medication ad. You know, like you don't actually have control over the use of that image. Anymore. So you're probably never going to feel [01:35:27] Speaker A: like genital thrush cream or something that [01:35:29] Speaker B: you really don't want to be. I wasn't going to say it out [01:35:30] Speaker A: loud, but I know that's what you were thinking. That's what you think. Because we're of a generation where that just comes straight towards the dirty stuff. [01:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So like that's the thing. But I think authenticity and someone's just said that in the chat as well, like authenticity is a, is a big deal if you're doing. For me, if you're a performer, you are selling your authenticity. Oh, it was Matt. Excellent. Like that's the purpose of a headshot is to put your physical self in front of a casting director to help you get a role. And when your headshot and reality don't line up, it's not amazing. So I think authenticity is still going to be a big part of that. I think the general public will find it harder and harder to pick, honestly, but. Well, we'll see. Maybe headshot photography is dead, but I feel like authenticity is going to win out. [01:36:24] Speaker A: I hope it does. A couple of points on that. Last year I was asked, I used to write reviews for ShotKit. Shotkit.com I don't write reviews for them anymore for a couple of different reasons. But last year I was asked to do a review on a phone based app that was a headshot AI headshot creator tool. And I, I downloaded because we get free code. So I downloaded the app and I had to play around with it. And then I wrote back to, to my boss and said, hey, I, I don't feel comfortable writing this. I think this software is, is dangerous. I think there's already examples of it being misused in community and basically what the app and even the promotional material that I received for the review was that you can take a selfie with this app or you can just have a photo in your image file of someone and it will create the headshot. But you can then put yourself in all kinds of different situations in a limo with two models wearing nothing but lingerie or, you know, like. And a lot of the advertising was, was making yourself out to be something that you're obviously not. But it just was really dangerous in that, you know, and there'd already been cases, I think there was one here in Victoria where students use a similar app to create some deep fake porn and compromising images of fellow female students as well as female teachers. And I think that they were, I think they're either suspended or expelled. Or whatever it may be. But, yeah, it's that side of it that's kind of a little unregulated. That's quite dangerous because you can make deep fakes of people with AI. You can put people in all sorts of compromising stuff. And we're seeing political leaders, especially in America, do it as well. We're seeing this. This abhorrent use of AI to. To send a message that just is so far from reality. [01:38:19] Speaker B: And as soon as you've, like, instilled enough, like, because it's getting harder and harder to pick that stuff, and people are posting images that are clearly not reality, but they have, you know, they look realistic, there are going to be instances of actual authentic photographs showing bad stuff that will get, say, oh, that's just AI, you know, like, so our ability to differentiate between real and not real is going to hurt us on both sides of that, I think. [01:38:45] Speaker A: I think so. And especially photographers, because people may call out an image that we've made, you know, and accusing us of using AI to make it, saying it's not authentic. But the other point I wanted to talk about just at the Fujifilm Summit on. On Saturday, the. I can't remember his name, but he's like the head honcho of Fujifilm Australia, and he gave the opening keynote and it was wonderful. And he spoke about the risks of AI and he spoke about authenticity a lot, but he also made some really good points. And one of the things that resonated with me was that he said, [01:39:20] Speaker B: you [01:39:20] Speaker A: know, AI has already read everything we've ever written that's online, which is everything. AI has already looked at all the places in the world, all the people that are in photos. AI knows a lot of stuff. But he said. But AI has never lived a day. You know, it's never had an experience. It's just been. It's just chosen to mash together a bunch of stuff to. To emulate an experience. But AI never stood there and photographed its own newborn baby and had meaning behind those images, you know, and so I hope that people still cry for and call for authenticity. And I hope that this whole AI, especially in the image. Well, especially in the art space, you know, and we often see memes which says, you know, why can't AI do my dishes or mow the lawn? Why does it have to take over all the art jobs? [01:40:11] Speaker B: It's done all the art jobs so I can get back to doing chores. [01:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah, or, you know, or you can be more corporate focused and not worry about, you know, it's yeah, and that really bothers me. That. That side of it bothers me a lot. It's interesting. And I worry. Sorry, you go. I've been rambling. [01:40:28] Speaker B: I was gonna. I was gonna say, like, I use AI as a tool in some commercial work, and I will only do that once I've had a conversation with the client. And to me, I put it in a similar bucket to using stock. So, you know, do I actually want to set this person's arm on fire or do I want to use a technique to do it? You know, AI is a way to do it. Stock photography is a way to do it. Setting them on fire is a way to do it. Not having that effect is the thing, you know, so what do we want to do? Here are the different costs and all that stuff. So I'll have. And when I have those conversations with clients, we'll. We'll talk about the ethics of it. We'll. We'll talk about all that stuff. Um, and the authenticity of the photo that you're generating and. Sorry, of the. Sorry. The authenticity of the finished work that you're creating and the amount of it that was generated. For me, it is part of my toolkit as a professional delivering commercial work. But I don't get satisfaction out of creating that in the way I would get satisfaction into creating something that I shot myself. So, like, there's a big, huge difference [01:41:29] Speaker A: between what you create in camera and what. Yeah, and you're right, it is just another tool. [01:41:36] Speaker B: There's a. There's a commercial piece I did for a theater client, and it involved having. It was really cool show called Disney Off Ice. It was about Walt Disney being woken up out of cold storage and owned by a media company. And the Make Dance Monkey Dance and, you know, kind of in the near future, dystopian media conglomerate land Super Cool Shout. The branding shot had, you know, Walt Disney. You know, he's. He's kind of slight madness in his eyes, standing in front of a wall of retro televisions. And all the TVs had different versions of his face on there. And at the time, our timeframes were really, really tight. And it's like, okay, here are the options for that. I can look for stock, but I haven't been able to find what I want. I can generate it. And we came to a conclusion, yes, I will use AI to generate that wall of televisions. I will then superimpose images on top of it. So a lot of it was still photographic. And then I went, oh, this is really good. I Want to enter it in competition. So I did actually go out and source the 30 analog TVs, and I went and reshot all the stuff that I did with AI and remade the back of the image so that every element is photographic. And like, yes, I need to do that. Because nearly every competition is going to say, you know, you can't have generated work. This have to be. It's got to be your photograph. Can't be stock, can't be someone else's shot, can't be generated, you know, and live and die by the rules at school. But I feel a lot more when I look at those two pieces of work. One of them I feel a lot happier about. I feel like I've done the work and every bit of it was mine. And the other one was a little bit unearned, if you know what I mean. So I know I get a lot of that. [01:43:09] Speaker A: That says a lot about our experience as the creator. You know, let's, let's, let's use one of Matt's glorious images from anywhere. You know, landscape image. People see the final product hanging in the window there in Bright or online. People see the majesty of the landscape, but they don't see the experience that Matt and M had climbing that mountain at four in the morning to be there for sunrise. And it was minus 5 degrees. And they were worried that their tracks in the snow were going to leave footprints that would be evident on that image. And it might actually, you know, disrupt the composition. You know, AI won't ever generate that sort of experience for people. And I think you're right. [01:43:58] Speaker B: It's. [01:43:59] Speaker A: There is a little bit of a soulless part to it, you know, that it's. It's almost like I think this is what you want. You know, when you create an AI image, it's not. It's not necessarily what you climbed that mountain to get that you needed to get. You know, you've had this composition in your mind all year, waiting for winter again. You know, it doesn't do that. [01:44:21] Speaker B: Yep. [01:44:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So it will be interesting to see where it leads. [01:44:26] Speaker B: And it's, it's not going away. Right. So not anytime soon. So I think it's important for me as a creative to understand how it works and then make choices about how I deploy it. And there are, there are things I won't do and there are things that I think are okay under certain circumstances. This topic is so fraught, though, you know, like, people have really strong opinions, as they should. So it's a, it's a Tricky one. That's why it's good we're not in front of a live audience right now and having things thrown at us. [01:44:57] Speaker A: So, you know, we can organize that if you want. I think for our generation, I think. I think we can. We can handle AI. The reason why I say that is because we've lived real life. We've seen real photos, we've taken real photos, we've written real words, real text, real, you know, prose. And so we know we have a better radar for picking the. Out of the AI when we're looking at stuff, or picking the AI bullshit out of content when we're looking at stuff. But younger generations, you know, the kids that are currently using AI to write their homework and to make funny memes for one another, they don't have. They don't have that grounding of what real life actually looks like. To be able to determine between something that is real and something that is fake. [01:45:44] Speaker B: Right. [01:45:45] Speaker A: And I fear that future generation, or, you know, our kids are probably of an age similar age that that will be all they know. [01:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah, Um, I. I think I have a lot more faith in humanity than that. I think people push back on stuff. That maybe I'm eternal optimist, I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I'm not saying what's full of, but I'm a glass half full kind of like, you know, I. I kind of believe people will push back on that. I believe people want to have real experiences. [01:46:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:46:16] Speaker B: Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I have to hope for that. So. [01:46:19] Speaker A: Yeah, well, because the other side of it is quite bleak, isn't it? [01:46:23] Speaker B: It's very Wally, you know, the old people on the deck chairs being fed their little nutritional supplements while the ship [01:46:34] Speaker A: only half the bones that they need because they're not using those parts of their body. Anyway, there's another comment here from Matt. People wanted real even before AI. Before AI, it was, is this photoshopped? But really meaning, is this real? [01:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a great point. Okay. Even the first cameras that were created as photographers, we still have the ability to misrepresent reality because we're choosing what we put in the frame and what's out of the frame. So, you know, you can take something that has a certain meaning and then you can go, well, actually, if I just show this part and this element's not there at all, it changes it. So there's always an amount of control that we have as an image maker. But AI just looks like I don't Know, we talk about authenticity and communication and all that stuff. We've always had access to tools. The next generation has always been, oh, no. Like, is digital photography okay? Is Photoshop okay? I don't know what happens after AI that we all freak out about. That'll. That'll be fun. [01:47:33] Speaker A: But, yeah, probably. Probably the lack of water in the environment, you know. [01:47:38] Speaker B: Oh, no, I wish you weren't kidding. [01:47:40] Speaker A: I know. It's quite. It's quite weird. It's quite weird, yeah. It's. It's a crazy. It's a crazy part of what we're dealing with these days, you know, and we've had conversations with photographers about how, talking of younger generations, you know, how there's this whole influencer mentality. And, you know, I saw that a lot. I mean, we see it all the time on social media. A lot of these people going out with the Fujifilm X136 and, you know, not editing any photos and shooting straight out of camera. Like, they're often younger people that are traveling and energetic and all those sickening traits. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not an optimist. No, I don't think I am. I really don't. Oh, gosh, I've lost my train of thought again. [01:48:27] Speaker B: I'm here to balance. You were influencers who were shooting straight out of camera, and, [01:48:34] Speaker A: yeah, I've completely lost much. Oh, and. And at the Fujifilm Summit, that was very much a flavor of the day, that it was about creators, you know, and they had people that called themselves influences to keynote speeches, and it was interesting to see the mindset, the mentality of younger creatives. But having said that, to Fujifilm's credit, they had such a diverse mix, not only in their. In their lineup of talks and workshops, but also in how they advertise it and managed to pull in quite a diverse mix of participants, ticket holders. You know, there were kids, there were a lot of people sort of in their early 20s. There were a lot of gray beards like me. There were older people who, you know, had been in the, in the, in the game for 40, 50 years. Like, it. It was good. It was, it was. It was actually reassuring to see. Yeah. And, you know, often there was this thing, you know, you'd think that there'd be this net of the twain shall meet between young influences and seasoned photographers, you know, but there was a beautiful mix of people and it just seemed to work, which was absolutely. It's what made it one of the best photography events I've been to. [01:49:47] Speaker B: That's really cool. [01:49:48] Speaker A: Hands down, I think. So. [01:49:50] Speaker B: One thing that's probably, maybe it's a Covid post Covid thing but like people leaving the safety of their home to go in meet space and you know, go to conventions or conferences or see people. Like I get the impression and I've seen it firsthand in a lot of, you know, for like conferences and stuff like that, that numbers are dropping for people coming, for some, for some events, for some things, not all. And you know, it sounds like you found an event that's really, really good. Actually the thing you just described is amazing because people are going to it and it's a mix of generations, like 1200 people. Wow, that's really good. [01:50:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:27] Speaker B: Yep. [01:50:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:28] Speaker B: And the all ages thing is, is that's really good. Like, you know, the way that we learned, you know, is different to what people. How people pick stuff up today. The communities that we curated and the friends that we leaned on 20 years ago the way we did that is different to, you know, people have different tools now. They could. They're relating people differently. It's all, it's, you know, it's not all digital, that's not fair. But you know, it's just, it's different. So it's really nice to know that there's a group getting together and that was able to have that cross section. That's very cool. [01:51:02] Speaker A: It was, yeah, it was a successful day in that regard. In lots of regards. They handled it really well. But speaking of Fujifilm, because everyone here accuses me of earning $1.24 5 every time I say Fujifilm. I am a fanboy. I am the number one ticket holder. Let's talk gear for a bit. I am conscious of time and I don't want to rob you of your whole morning, but what sort of gear are you shooting with these days? [01:51:27] Speaker B: I'm a Canon guy for the pure reason that I. Yeah, sorry, that I. That was my first camera was a Canon and it's sounds lame, but it's an extension of my hand. Like I know where the buttons are and I. I don't need to think about it while I'm working. That's the important thing. I actually don't care what brand it is. I don't care. I now have, you know, obviously I've got multiple bodies and lenses and equipment and stuff. So I've made an investment that helps to lock you in, but honestly, I don't care. And in. If you wave a flag and say this brand's camera is the best camera at the moment in two years time, it's a different camera brand that's waving their flag. You know, things that I care. Sorry, Roland. He hates me now. Yeah, okay. I have a Polaroid too. Does that count anyway? [01:52:16] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, why not? [01:52:17] Speaker B: Like, low light is important for me for theater gigs. So, you know, naturally, if I was going to start from scratch, I'd be kind of going, right, well, where am I going to get the best performance for that? Now it's just like that's the equipment that I have, but I kind of don't care. I use Godox lighting. [01:52:31] Speaker A: What is your go to body? [01:52:33] Speaker B: It's an R5. I'm actually using my R5 now as my webcam because I didn't have a webcam when Covid hit and you couldn't just go to officeworks and get one anymore because they were sold out. So. But you could get HDMI converters. So, you know, there you go. I like to have the most expensive webcam in my office. So that's nice. But like the R5 and then R5 Mark II are my. The bodies that go with me to shoot. I tend to shoot with the 70 to 200 for headshots. It just feels good to me. If I'm shooting dancer portfolio work 2.8. [01:53:05] Speaker A: Sorry, [01:53:07] Speaker B: no, I'll probably shoot an F8. I tend to not, you know, I tend to not go really narrow field of focus unless I want to do something specific. And I need to make sure that I need to have some amount of forgiveness because my job there is to deliver a large variety of work for a client. So, you know, if I'm shooting in studio, then I'm, you know, lighting appropriately and shooting probably. But you know, the answer is it depends. If I'm shooting dancers. I like distance between me and the subject. I will tend to shoot using the 70 to 200 unless I'm trying to achieve something different. I've got a wicked 28-70 f2 lens that is heavy and awesome. And I did some in a. In a non prime. It's pretty nice actually. And it's heavy. So it's probably. I think it's meant to be. [01:54:04] Speaker A: Oh, okay. That's right. Whatever works. I think that's a litmus test when. When you do find a zoom where the output and is comparable to a prime, I think that's a really good indicator that you found a good zoom. [01:54:16] Speaker B: And like I find for theater work, if I'm shooting at F2, I have the benefit of good. You know, it handles light well. And it helps me isolate the subject that I want on stage, which gives me particular effects at particular times that I find really useful and are usually the ones that clients will pick when they go to media. So, you know, it's useful for that. I'm a Godox lighting guy, and mostly that's to have one ecosystem with one lot of software and one lot of flashes and one lot of triggers and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, they. They work pretty well for me. I don't know what other gear you want to know about, but. [01:54:58] Speaker A: No, that's good. I was going to ask you about the lighting, given that, you know, you do. You do work in some fairly dark spaces, and obviously lighting helps with headshots, but also, you know, in studio work. So when you rent that studio space, do you take all your own lighting kit or does the space already have a lighting setup? [01:55:14] Speaker B: I do take my own lighting. They. The studio that I use has their own lighting, but it's not mine. And in a crisis, I won't know how to fix it. So, like, if it's my own gear, I know how to reset that flash. If it doesn't work, I know I can put it in the box and get a spare. And, like, I'm just ready for problems to show up. Because my job is not to be wasting time getting back to the stage where I can shoot. My job is to shoot. So, like, minimizing the recovery time when something goes wrong is important to me, which means knowing the equipment's important to me. Anytime I've had to use someone else's body or lights, I've hit something and I've stalled and it's. It's caused delay, and I hate delay. So, no, it's on my own lights. I tend to use my own modifiers because I know how they feel. [01:56:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's important. [01:56:06] Speaker B: And it's. It means I can get the result that I'm picturing without mucking around too much. So, yeah, although I can access their stuff, I tend to use my own. [01:56:17] Speaker A: It is interesting about the whole temporarily using someone else's kit or a different kit that you're not used to. And we've talked about how the gear doesn't make you a better photographer. And one of the offshoots of that was that even when you do buy new gear, yes, it may be a better performing system. It might be a camera body with higher megapixels and better IBIs, or it might be a lens with a, you know, a faster aperture or whatever. It May be the lens. The. The new gear won't make you a better person overnight because you now have got to relearn, you've got to rebuild that muscle memory. You need to be able to shoot that thing in the dark, you know, with one hand. And that takes time to relearn gear. And I think that, you know, your work could suffer potentially for a short period of time during that, that handover period. And, you know, and it's. I think it's why a lot of our guests that have been professional photographers, there's been quite a healthy percentage that still stick with their DSLR, you know, their flagship D850 or. Or a Canon equivalent, you know, they stick with that because it is just a workhorse. It is a tool. It's not broken. But I know it. I know it backwards. [01:57:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. For a little while, I had one mirrorless and one DSLR in my kit and was swapping between them in shoots. And my eye could not deal with that, like, you know, but, like, I still have the DSLRs, but I only use them when I'm doing something really weird, like I want to change the zoom and I want to change the focus on the lens during an exposure because I'm doing a crazy long exposure thing. I do some weird stuff. And mirrorless seems to protect you against making stupid decisions like that. So you got to wheel out the old mechanical stuff every now and again to get the choices that you want, but they're still around. Although my son has nicked one of my DSLRs and. And so annoying. You try to get your kids interested in the stuff that you want and then they. They don't fall into it and that's fine. And then they find another photographer and they go, I really like their work. I think I want to be a photographer. It's like, oh, the ultimate insult. Ultimate insult, yeah. [01:58:19] Speaker A: Plus, I want your gear. Yeah. But it's wonderful. It's wonderful to see. [01:58:23] Speaker B: It's quite nice, actually. Yeah. [01:58:25] Speaker A: Do you ever go on photo shoots together? [01:58:28] Speaker B: We haven't yet. We've been talking about doing like a photo walk together and he's assisted me in the studio a couple of times, which is fun. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a. There's a photographer named Leigh Highland and he trades under Steam Kittens. So if you. If you're in Australia and you go to any of the, you know, Supernova or Pax or anything like that, and you're a cosplayer, you know, this guy, guy, he's one of Australia's most well known cosplay photographers. And we have, we have a few mutual friends and I've totally cribbed his work. Like he does a lot of gel work and stuff like that and so I learned a lot by looking at his work. One of, we have some mutual friends and I talked myself into assisting him at Supernova in Brisbane a couple years ago and now I'm a regular. So I'll assist him in Brisbane and Gold coast and I've been to Sydney once. This is one of those times we're watching. Our photographer work is amazing because he has excellent communication with people. He does excellent lighting. Lee has a slowly developing motor neuron disease and it's pretty well like it's advanced a long way. So he's. For the most part he's non verbal now. For the most part he can't, he's in a, he's in a wheelchair. He can't hold things that are too heavy. He can't gesture very quickly. So he, you know this thing about, we talked before about like being in the studio and watching people communicate and stuff like that. I totally use my voice all the time to communicate with people. To watch someone else that used to have, that doesn't have access to that like they used to and they've had to build new communication techniques. He is excellent at communicating with clients and he's excellent at communicating with his team. He's built tools for this and I've learned so much about lighting and communication from him and the way that he shoots and how it's different and he's, he's pretty well loved in the cosplay community and he's made no secret of the fact that there is, he doesn't know when like the clock's ticking on this. There's going to be a point where like he's, he uses a Sony with a really light lens and you know that that is the right camera for him because weight is incredibly important. So he'll have his like his elbows are propped on the table and he's got, you know, a special grip and everything. So he can get everything done. And actually he shoots and everything he shoots is immediately uploaded straight out of camera for people to access. So there's no net, right. So he's using, he's using gels in a makeshift studio live on site and uploading immediately and giving people a QR code when they, when they leave so they can access it. So like that's so clever. It's so clever. And he's so good at what he does. He is the photographer that my son's gone. I like his work. I want to be a photographer. So I will forgive my son on this, on this instance. [02:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah. That deserves all the support and love it needs, I think. [02:01:21] Speaker B: So that's beautiful. [02:01:25] Speaker A: Cosplay photography. I. A friend of mine, Ian Tan, who's also a cosplay photographer, mostly in Melbourne, he goes under the handle Guitar Pug. He does a lot of cosplay folks at the conventions and things like that and then even privately he does work with them. And I, I love the genre because I'm a big, you know, I'm a big nerd. I geek out over all the, the cosplay stuff and all the fandoms and you know, I'm a gamer and all that sort of stuff. And I got to spend a day shadowing in. I think it was Comic Con, one of the events in Melbourne. And out in the main hall, yeah, he sets up and he's got like one light on a stand. He's shooting with medium format. But it's the way that he deals with the cosplayers, it's that respect he shows them and, and he, you know, he under, he takes the time. He's a bit of a geek too. Bit of a nerd. And he takes the time to learn the fandom. [02:02:18] Speaker B: Yep. [02:02:18] Speaker A: So that he can then support the artist. The cosplayer in pose and movement and look. [02:02:26] Speaker B: Yes. [02:02:26] Speaker A: You know, and he'll often, he'll often say, remember how such and such made this look. I want you to try and emulate that. You know, like, I think it's wonderful. I think it's such a fun genre [02:02:36] Speaker B: and they're speaking in the same language and there's mutual respect and you know. [02:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's really cool to really. And cosplay seems to be. Whilst this com. Whilst it can be competitive as an art form, it seems to be this kind of close knit world because often and I felt this growing up, you know, it wasn't cool to be a nerd. Wasn't cool to be a geek, to have fandoms to love anime or, or video. You know, it was, it was kind of frowned upon and now you can [02:03:03] Speaker B: find your tribe now if that's you. [02:03:04] Speaker A: And yeah, yeah, the tribes in cosplay are huge. [02:03:08] Speaker B: You know, I hadn't, I hadn't really done the supernova thing before like and that, that wasn't my space. I'm a nerd as well. But you know, when I now that I've been there a bunch of times. There's an, like, the atmosphere is people are there, they're all different ages and shapes and sizes and orientations and you name it. And everybody is excited about everybody else. Like, everyone is excited about, hey, you know, look at the work you put into that. Oh, you look amazing. Oh, that's incredible. Like, you know, and I'm not saying there aren't bad people around, because there are, but, you know, the, the, the vibe in that place is so good and yeah, it's lovely. Like, I think as a photographer as well, like, you're helping to celebrate people with their enthusiasm and the thing they love. And I, I just, I love that environment. It's so good. I think the first one I did was on Remembrance Day and we're in the Brisbane Convention center and, you know, at 11:11, there's a moment of silence and it was dead silent except for, like, you know, you could hear like a video game hold screen playing over there somewhere. And it was like, you know those movies where time stops and everyone just kind of stands still and they keep going again. It was like, you know, there would have been thousands and thousands of people in this center and they're excited and it was quiet. Like there was an underlying sense of respect for one another. That was really cool. And I think it's one of the reasons I like that community so much is everyone's, everyone's excited for everyone else. That's what I want out of a [02:04:39] Speaker A: community, which is wonderful. When you, like you said, when you look at the diversity of the folks that participate in cosplay and geek and nerd fandoms and things like that, it's amazing to see, you know, that diversity. [02:04:53] Speaker B: I do feel sorry for people when I'm the one who recognizes, you know, the nerdiness because it means that's an old person nerd thing. So, you know, like, that's less cool. [02:05:02] Speaker A: It's got to contain that, that geek out just a little bit. The fascinating thing about cosplay photography, cosplayers, and as subjects too in photography, is that they're not just performative, they're actually makers. They actually are resourceful, highly resourceful people that will 3D, print, cast, sew, stitch. Like they just have. They accumulate these skills as makers and often cosplayers will carry with them somewhere, or they'll have a friend who's carrying a cosplay repair kit. You know, they'll have it, they'll have a glue gun and they'll have needle and thread and Spare pieces that they think, oh, that might not hold out the whole day. You know, it's. It's such a beautiful culture, you know? [02:05:47] Speaker B: Yep. Where when Steam Kitten sets up at Supernova, it is right next to the repair guild. So there is a volunteer set of people that go from Supernova, the whole thing. Thing. And their job basically is, if your cosplay has had a problem, show up and we'll fix it for you. So they're repairing things all day long. I'm they. And it was so weird. There. There's this horn that goes off every now and again, and you'd hear them go, and I never knew what it was. And it's only recently it's dawned on me. It's the shoe horn. If your shoe's being repaired and it's ready, they hunk the shoe horn. It's like, oh, now I get it. And they're shouting shoes. So I feel like an idiot. Took me some so long. But, you know, like, where do you go to something like that where you've. You've gone to a convention and there's repaired a bunch of volunteers who will help to repair your thing. Like, that's. That's. Yeah, that's part of that super cool community thing. Yeah. And we'll get into times when, like, Lee is. Is getting things set up and setting strobes and whatever, you know, by remote. So I'm talking to the person and asking them, hey, you know, like, where'd this come from? It's like, oh, I made this and this. This skirt's all this. And this is radio and the stories behind it. Like, if people are. And they want to talk about it and they want to share and I'm excited to hear about it. Like, it is. If this isn't a thing you do go into, like, cosplay things, folks go. Go along once and just check it out. It's actually like, it's. It's. It's super cool. It's super cool. [02:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And as a photographer, it makes for really, really cool portrait work with context, you know? [02:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:15] Speaker A: Environmental portraiture with. Because these people make props and. And some, you know, some of the costume, like I've seen people dresses like. Or create like an Optimus prime from Transformers suit. And it is, you know, tall because they've worked out how to build stilts in. And they 3D printed this and. Oh, it's fascinating. [02:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a. It's a fun scene. It definitely is. I'm very Conscious of time because we've just hit the two hour mark and like I said, I don't want to steal your. Your whole morning. Let me ask you this. Rolling back to gear very quickly. Justin always likes to ask a question about. Imagine there's a zombie apocalypse. Okay. All right. The sirens have been blaring, the emergency broadcast has gone out on all platforms and the wave is headed towards you. And you've. You've got to grab one camera. It doesn't have to be a camera that you own already. It could just be. This is the camera I want to document the end of the world world. One camera and one lens. What would you grab and why? And I know you said you don't care about the gear, but let's just hear what you've got to say. [02:08:22] Speaker B: Can I just grab my phone so I can use that as a camera and also, you know, call for an Uber eats before the world ends? That would be. [02:08:28] Speaker A: That's a good idea. [02:08:29] Speaker B: That's not a good answer, is it? That's a bad answer. That's. Yeah, I. I don't really know. [02:08:36] Speaker A: That's a. [02:08:38] Speaker B: I'm going to give you. Not the answer you want, which is I'm. I'm not interested in the gear that I have. I'm interested in the people that I'm spending that time with. So the zombies, you know. Well, hopefully people aren't zombies yet. Right. I don't know. No one's gonna look at those photos anyway. Right. So I can, I can use like. [02:08:57] Speaker A: No, because, well, eventually everyone will be zombies. Even you. [02:09:00] Speaker B: Everyone will be zombies. All right. Maybe I'll just grab my first digital camera, which was one of those Sony Mavicas that had a three and a half inch floppy and you push the button and it went for 20 seconds and then you could take another one and make a pixel shot. Like, maybe I'll just grab one of those. [02:09:14] Speaker A: It took a. It took a three. What were three and a quarter inch, [02:09:18] Speaker B: three and a half inch floppies? Yeah. [02:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [02:09:21] Speaker B: So. And I think you could. I think from memory you could fit like eight photos on one of those. And yeah, you. They were 1 megapixel. And you know, it was a nice lens and everything. It was like a strange shape of a body because it's got to have a floppy disk in it. That was. That was my first digital camera [02:09:43] Speaker A: and [02:09:43] Speaker B: it was of a noisy beast. I still have it somewhere. I'm pretty sure I don't have a battery that works in anymore, but. That's insane. Yeah. [02:09:49] Speaker A: Floppy disk. And then I remember they went to mini CDs. [02:09:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. [02:09:54] Speaker A: At one point, some of the cameras. And then they. And they created their own. Their early. What were they called? Their memory cards, Zip drives, something. Yeah, that was kind of long. They were long and. [02:10:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:10:06] Speaker A: But then they brought out short ones for some reason, which you could then buy an adapter for to make it long, like. [02:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. [02:10:13] Speaker A: Because I think I had some of the original. One of the original Sony Digital is there's power shot. Was that Canon? [02:10:21] Speaker B: Oh, no, that's Can. Sorry, Can Power shot. [02:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was something like that. And it fascinated me, that camera, because it was. Yeah, it was so clunky. But I had to go and buy this special media that was hugely expensive. [02:10:35] Speaker B: Yep. [02:10:35] Speaker A: They've always done Sony. [02:10:38] Speaker B: My dad, I remember he had whatever camera he had used SD cards and he had all of his used SD cards, you know, on his desk with a rubber band around them because you shot on them and then you kept the cards. Like, dad, that's not what that's for. You're meant to put them on your computer. Oh, wait, I've seen how you use a computer. Maybe this is for the best. [02:10:59] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's just building a catalog for the future. [02:11:04] Speaker B: Maybe. [02:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I think we've even had a guest on who admitted to doing that. Oh, yeah, Just once the memory card was full. It just went into a draw. [02:11:12] Speaker B: Oh, man. [02:11:14] Speaker A: I shoot, isn't it? [02:11:15] Speaker B: There's no way that's happening. There's too many images on there. I got to cycle those things too fast. [02:11:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And given the cost of. Of, you know, physical media, a physical media storage these days. [02:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah. It's kind of crazy, hasn't it? [02:11:27] Speaker A: So it's gone bananas. Oh, gosh. I hope that something changes there because it's not just cameras and photographers. It's going to impact. It's going to impact anyone that runs any sort of storage. Yeah, it's crazy. Even my WordPress site for my website, for my blog, that's doubled in price. [02:11:43] Speaker B: Really? Yeah. [02:11:44] Speaker A: So I filled up my storage and now I want to get more. And it's like it's more than the amount of monthly subscription again, just to go to the next storage level. So it's. Yeah, it's. [02:11:56] Speaker B: It's. [02:11:56] Speaker A: It's crazy. So I'm being very selective about what photos I keep on my. On my storage drives. [02:12:02] Speaker B: I was really lucky at the Icon Awards is one of those American competitions, and I managed to snag a first place this year, which is great. And first place winners got a 4 terabyte Samsung SSD. And I'm pretty sure that the value of that prize at the time that they announced it and the value when they sent it out to people were not the same thing. It's worth a lot more by the time I got it, which is excellent. [02:12:27] Speaker A: That's a good score, though. That's. That's. That's kind of a prize that you can actually use that you need, you know. [02:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's here. It's plugged in and working as part of my backup strategy right now. So, you know, I tend to mirror my working drives in multiple places as well as having, you know, normal backups and stuff like that. So, yeah, if any one bit of media fails on my currently editing jobs and I've got something to. To fall back on. So it's. It's in that ecosystem now. Thanks, Icon. [02:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's good. Storage has always been something that I've always struggled with. I. I don't know whether I buy quality storage media or what it is, but I. I just. I hate the whole. I especially hate the whole Lightroom cataloging thing. When you fill up a drive, you need to get a new drive in and it's referencing a catalog, and it just does my head in, you know, points like that, where I. Where I realize I'm not very good with tech. [02:13:18] Speaker B: All right, so let me suggest something you might want to try. [02:13:21] Speaker A: Please. [02:13:21] Speaker B: I. I haven't. Every single one of my jobs that I do has its own Lightroom catalog. It has its own folder, it has its own code. So my first headshot of 2026 will be H2601. And every single job, well, it's. It's in a small, fast drive on my computer while I'm working it. When it's done, it gets archived off. That whole folder gets archived off? Yep. So all those jobs travel together. Every asset associated with that job has that code in it. So even the client galleries, when they go online and have a look, that code is. It's in the URL and it's in the thing. So I can track any job really, really quickly. But importantly, I'm not dealing with my entire life in Lightroom. And like, you know, if there. There's some. Some photographers really need to have a giant Lightroom catalog because they're composite libraries in there or whatever, and it's fine. But for me, it's like each job is its own catalog and they just get archived away and so that's worked really well for me. And it means I don't have that problem you've just described. Never shows up for me. So it's a massive change if you're not doing it. But it's super useful. [02:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I might look into that because. And the other thing is, I'm so sick of Lightroom paying so much money for something. I'm not a commercial photographer. I'm not a professional photographer, you know, and I'm paying, you know, for a pro plan, and I just. I just need to pare it back a bit and look for a much simpler workflow for my stuff as well. But that's. That's a work in progress, as you know. That doesn't happen over overnight. All right, well, look, I think this might be a very good place to tie a knot, a neat little bow in today's episode. But just before we do, if you allow me, one last question. What's on the horizon? What have you got your sights on creatively and professionally in the coming months or remainder of this year? [02:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, so the rest of this year, I'm. Oh, my cat's just let himself into the room. That's exciting. So, hello, cat. [02:15:21] Speaker A: Please help up on the desk. Please help up. [02:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. No, he's not. He's not a desk cat. The other one's a desk cat. Now that. Now that there's access, a big part of my life for the rest of the year is the Australian Photographic Prize. So, like, we're in the stage now where entries close on the 31st of May. So we're kind of. We're getting to the pointy bit where we go into judging for that and then live judging. So that kind of takes over my life for a good couple of months. And then. So, yeah, that's. That's probably the biggest focus. I'm heading over to New Zealand for their Iris Awards in August as well. And one of my responsibilities is as a board member on the New Zealand Institute of Professional Photography. So I've got some responsibilities there. So, like, those are the things that are looming large. And when I have something that's looming large, everything else kind of disappears. Other than that, it's continuing to do good client work, to get into theater work. Not pushing too many boundaries at the moment. I think I'm in a. Survive the next couple of months and then see where it goes after that. But, yeah, I think the next kind of interesting personal project stuff is leaning into some of that in camera. Looks like it's Photoshop, but not work and spending time to develop some of that. So that's the creative boundary that I reckon I'll be pushing for the next little while. [02:16:46] Speaker A: Oh, that sounds amazing. Look, we all certainly look forward to seeing what it is that you're going to produce next. On behalf of all of us here, [02:16:55] Speaker B: just me, all of you, excellent. Thanks for Mosquito. [02:16:58] Speaker A: But on behalf of the team, Chris, thank you so much for taking the time to, to share your journey with us, but also to show how to be prolific in your craft, not just through the taking of photos, but through the engagement you have with clients, the network you have with peers, the contributions you make to the industry at a broader level and a global level too. It's all very inspirational stuff. And I think if there's, if I was to highlight, one thing to take away from this is that it's, it's super important. It's not easy, but it's super important to always try to do something that you love because that, that's what feeds your soul, whether it be a creative pursuit like photography or you work in a particular field, whether it. Be it or, you know, you're a mechanic or whatever it may be. And I think your story today has certainly inspired a lot of people and, and we appreciate your time and thank you very much for joining us on the Camera Life podcast. [02:17:57] Speaker B: This has been super fun. Enjoyed reading all the comments for people, enjoyed the chat. We didn't give Bruce mo nearly as hard a time as we promised he [02:18:05] Speaker A: would, so we were going to dedicate half an hour to that, weren't we? [02:18:08] Speaker B: Half an hour, half an hour. Can I come back and just abuse him for half an hour? [02:18:11] Speaker A: Another time maybe. Maybe I'll get you and Bruce on and you can just trade insults. I think for amazing viewing. [02:18:20] Speaker B: We have talked about having an exhibition together, so, you know, I don't, I don't know if us trading insults is going to be excellent for the lifetime of that exhibition, so. Well, let's. Maybe that's after the exhibition. We'll see how we go. [02:18:31] Speaker A: Maybe. [02:18:32] Speaker B: Cool. [02:18:33] Speaker A: Maybe, you know, like some exhibitions, you said they've got a little media room that's kind of away from the main exhibition, but there's video on loop. That's what you could have. Just that trading insults, it's like. But how did they create this amazing work together? [02:18:45] Speaker B: I'll just cut out the bits where I'm talking and make it sound like Bruce hates me and play that because that's going to be hilarious. [02:18:51] Speaker A: That became very Dark very quickly, Chris. But look, on that note, I'm going to say goodbye to some folks. I don't have any music to play out because I don't know how. Usually that's, that's Justin's job and clearly he's. He was said to us before he left this morning, I'm going back to bed. [02:19:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:08] Speaker A: And yet here I am. Unbelievable. All right, let's thank some people. We had. Nev Clark, great to see you as always, Nev. Thanks for the comments. Phil Thompson, thank you so much. Roland, great to meet you. Thank you for the subscription. Make sure you hit the bell icon. And that goes for all of you watching or listening. If you join the Camera Life Podcast on YouTube, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Please hit the bell icon that gives you notifications and that way you'll get notified in your, your time zone when we're going live. When do we go live? Every Thursday morning, 9am Australian Eastern Standard Time, we interview an amazing photographer such as Chris Anderson sitting here before me. And then every Monday evening at 7.30pm Australian Eastern Standard Time, we air Live, Always Live, the random photography show where we talk about what's going on in the industry. News, product launches, we even unbox stuff live. I know how much you guys like the ASMR of that. But more importantly, every Monday night, we get you guys to send us your images. If you mail your an image, maybe one main image and maybe one behind the scenes, mail that to justinuckystraps.com along with the camera settings for the shot. And also a little, a little blurb, couple of sentences, small paragraph of how you, why you took this shot and why it's important to you and send that into us. And then every Monday night we'll bring it up and we'll discuss it on the show. But who else have we got to say thank you to? So, Roland, thank you so much. Who else? We had, obviously Matt Palmer. Bruce didn't show up. I noticed. I think he was scared. That's fair. Julie joined us, Phil Thompson and anyone else. I'm sorry if I've missed anyone, but that has been this episode of the Camera Life podcast. Thank you once again, Chris. Amazing, amazing to have you on here and to learn more about you and everyone. Be safe and we'll, we'll see you Monday evening. All right, thanks everybody. Bye.