Ep 105 David Cossini | Award Winning Australian portrait photographer

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Saving everybody. [00:00:29] Speaker B: And welcome to the Camera Life podcast. It's the 7th of August 2025 and we seem to have some. Good morning everybody and welcome to the Camera Life podcast. [00:00:43] Speaker C: Playing on YouTube in the background. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Oh no, it's looping. What are we doing? [00:00:58] Speaker A: Sorry, Gu. [00:01:16] Speaker B: I blame Justin, personally. All right, I think we're good. Are we good? [00:01:22] Speaker C: I think so. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Can you guys all hear me? [00:01:24] Speaker D: I think that's better. [00:01:26] Speaker B: All right, sorry everybody. Well, just pretend that never happened. It's not like we ever have audio problems at the start of a show. But look, this is the Camera Life podcast. It's the 7th of August 2025, this is episode 105 and of course we're joined by a special guest today who we'll get to in just a moment. But it would be remiss of me not to mention that the Camera Life podcast is proudly brought to you by Lucky straps. Head to Luckystraps.com if you're looking for a premium handmade leather camera strap. And Jim will hook you up and use Code Greg for a healthy discount. Either Greg for Greg Chromie or get Greg Carrick. But I hope everyone that's watching along at home as well and safe. We are joined today by David Cassini who's an award winning Australian portrait photographer. G', day, David. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Hello, how are you? [00:02:16] Speaker B: Great to have you on the show. Thanks for having me, David. Of course we want to get into the woods and understand a little bit more about you. But just very quickly, 60 second version of who you are and what you shoot. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Mate. I'm an amateur photographer from Newcastle in Australia. I been shooting mostly street documentary, sports and portrait. Although, you know, I started out doing a bit of landscape and stuff. But these are the four things that I really enjoy shooting. I enjoy travel, so I like to shoot overseas when I can. Yeah. And no, I just really like to shoot anything that has people in it. Yeah. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Well, welcome to the show. You're in good company today, Dave, because Greg Carrick is also a street photographer and, and I've done. I've dabbled a little bit as well myself. So great to have you on the show. Yeah, just a little. Jim, did you want to say hello to the chat? [00:03:24] Speaker C: Yeah, we've got Dennis Smith, he said yeehaw. Philip Johnson. Morning gents. Morning, Philip. [00:03:30] Speaker B: G' day, guys. [00:03:31] Speaker C: David Mascaro from the Bay Area in San Fran. We were late again, sorry. And obviously sorry for the Chromie on repeat. Heaven. [00:03:44] Speaker A: So, dentist. [00:03:47] Speaker C: And Morning, Lisa. Look, we're lucky it wasn't something about Fuji on repeat. But that's, that's a normal show. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Always can always organize that gym just for you. Yeah, but, but yeah, so it's good to have everyone on board. We're going to get, we're going to get to know David a little bit more. So David, just before we get into your current work and your current projects and, and what you've been shooting lately, let's roll back the clock a bit and, and talk about some of your early inspirations into photography. You know, things like, were you raised in an artistic household? Did you have access to cameras at a young age? Was there someone who inspired you to take up photography? So if you can just give us a little bit of a rundown of your, you know, the early days of you taking up photography. [00:04:31] Speaker A: No, I wasn't really brought up in an artistic household. I actually grew up playing sport, which is probably the furthest can get from the art world. But you know, along with the, with the sport, I used to enjoy a few beers after the game with the boys and I used to end up being the one that used to take the camera and you know, so we could, you know, kind of at the time we didn't really know it, but documenting what we were, what we got up to. And that's kind of how I started taking photos. I went overseas to live at first. I've spent 11 years overseas living. But I first went over, I think it was November 2002. I went over to live in England and I used to photograph all the time while I was there. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Yep. [00:05:24] Speaker A: And we used to. All the best photos. We used to hang up here down in the, in the kitchen where, where I stayed. And I didn't think too much about photography until I think it was about, I think it was 2018. I decided that I wanted to try to learn a little bit more about it. And I saw that there was a course, just a one week course in Sydney with Magnum two photographers. It was Beaker Deporter and Olivia Arthur. And I didn't know anything about the two ladies, but I wanted to get better. So I went in to do this course and it was a bit of an eye opener. It was 25 people for one week were doing this thing that I, it was in a part of Sydney with that Cremorne or somewhere like that, that rich suburb of Sydney and I don't know that area very well. I've got no reason to go there and I, I was running about 10 minutes late. I couldn't find a park anywhere. I'm not from Sydney. I didn't realize when you go to these. Some of these suburbs, you just can't find a park. So I parked all the way in Buggery and had to walk to this thing. And by the time I walked in, they'd already started the introduction. And then, you know, these people turned around and looked at me. And then someone said, oh, are you sure you're in the right place? I said, oh, this is the Magnum course, isn't it? They said, yeah, but you've played way too much sport to be here. And then they all did that, kind of sneaking at me. And I thought, oh, this is not a good start. Yeah, I just. Well, look, people can only bully you if you let them bully you. So I just ignored it and got on with it. And by the end of the week, I'd made a couple of good friends who I'm still friends with today, and I realized I knew absolutely nothing about photography. They asked you to turn up with, I don't know, 30 photos. So I just turned up 30 of what I thought were the best stuff that I'd done. I didn't realize it was supposed to be some kind of project and was supposed to have some kind of theme or anything like this. I didn't know anything about these photographers they were talking about. They were even the real basic ones like Henri Carter, Bresson, these kind of guys. And I'm going, who are these people? So what I did was I, I went away and I kind of, you know, went over everything they. I'd learned that week in my head and all the mistakes that I made. We were supposed to go out and do one project and then work on it from there. But I just wanted to shoot everything I was out there doing. I, I chose a gym in Sydney there, which is not an easy project, and I. And what I wanted to show was this idea that these people that go to the gym are actually confident. If you're really confident in yourself, you don't pump yourself full of steroids and, and, and do this kind of thing. It's actually a deep insecurity. It's a body dysmorphia and all this kind of thing. But, yeah, get it through to these people that what I was trying to show this, this vulnerability and the insecurity behind these people that pump themselves full of steroids and get all these tattoos and walk around. Because we're men, we don't need to walk into a room, you know, like, we're, I don't know, this alpha male Thing we're intimidating enough as it is. So why do these people do it? It just, it lies in that insecurity and that vulnerability. And I, I know this kind of world and I saw these guys that they see, what they see in the mirror is not the person that we see. And they're very harsh. And I wanted to show this. That is not a, that's not a project for someone who's just starting out because that's, that's complicated and it takes a lot of nuance. And anyway, so I was doing that, but then the, the gym would finish. They, the people that I was photographing would finish about 8:30, 9:00 clock at the latest. But I still wanted to shoot. I didn't think, you know, I wasn't thinking about going home and editing, going through the photos that I went editing, trying to work out a sequence, seeing what, you know, what am I missing here? What am I not getting? Like, I was getting no detail shots of anything. And yeah, so then I was going out to some gay bar with. There was a gay Canadian photographer, his name was Dave as well, and he was going to Stonewall, I think it is in Oxford street there. And we were going there and we were photographing all these gay dudes stripping on the stage. There was drag queens dancing. And then people getting up, doing some amateur strip night and all this kind of thing. I thought, oh, this is fantastic. And I'd get home late, you know, upload all my photos, go to sleep. I was getting up early in the morning, going back to this course and then sitting down, you know, through the class from 9 o' clock in the morning till I can in the afternoon, just taking in all this information and I realized that I really enjoyed this. I was getting a lot out of it and I wanted to get better at it. And so I went back and I started looking at all these photographers that they were talking about on the course. And I think everyone should have a look at Henri Carter, Bresson, these kind of people. But for me and the type of photography that, that I do, this is irrelevant. For me, it's. Then I started to come across these people that were more suited to me. So I went out and bought some book on Bruce Gilden. Actually, I come home, I was overseas at the time and I bought nine books. It was Robert Maplethorpe, Bruce Gilden, Diane Arbus, Mary Ellen, Mark Moriama, and there was a couple more. I can't remember who they were, but I remember coming home and then I was a little bit under. I Sent them home to Australia while I was overseas. And then I got back and my mum had received the package. And then I was under suspicion for being gay because, you know, I've never been married. No kids. I smell nice. I keep my, my, my room clean and now I've got these books full of. Yeah, penis. So can you say that on YouTube? Yeah, but not too often. Yeah. So when I started to go out and, and, and find photographers and then for me, I find Brisson very boring. [00:11:50] Speaker B: You know, Can I just jump in for a sec? How did you convince your mum that you weren't a gay photographer? [00:11:56] Speaker A: I don't know, mate. I'm still under suspicion because in order to do what I do, there's no dating, there's no, you know, I'm, I'm. I've basically chosen photography over wife, kids, dating. Yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker B: You know, and so how do you, how do you define that drive? Because, you know, having done street photography, I know I, I know that draw because of wanting to just get out back out on the street with a camera, not spending time in front of a computer going through your images like it was just all about the shooting process. Did you find that too, Greg? Or do you still find that, that there's a, there's a call to get you out on the street? [00:12:39] Speaker D: Yeah, there's, there's times. Where am I on? [00:12:43] Speaker A: Yes, you're on. [00:12:45] Speaker D: There's, there's times when it's almost this compelling urge to get out there and spend hours on the street and you're totally focused on other people and scenes and trying to get capture shots and you, you're immersed in that world again. It's like stepping through a door into another world. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:05] Speaker D: And you're in this world and the world you've just left behind isn't even in your mind anymore. [00:13:10] Speaker B: You know, it's all what's in front of you. [00:13:12] Speaker D: It's all in front of me. [00:13:14] Speaker B: How do you define that for yourself, Dave, that. That desire? [00:13:19] Speaker A: Well, I've, I've found. I found something that gives me purpose, something that I really enjoy and more importantly, I joy above all else. And it's that human connection. I meet the most interesting people and if it wasn't, if it wasn't for the camera, it doesn't mean I wouldn't meet them because there's a reason why I choose these people. But it just, it definitely makes it easier for me and I just, Yeah, I, I just think I. If you actually look in, look, look at looking, really think deeply and when you Meet people, you don't really meet very many people that are happy and they've got no real purpose and they've been sold this kind of lie that they're supposed to, you know, get a mortgage, go to work, you know, give all their attention to someone else who sometimes doesn't give that attention back. They basically look at the role of, I think of someone like myself because I'm a male and you basically give your life to other people and in the end you can lose everything. Just see a lot of people that are unhappy and don't have any purpose. So I just feel like I was lucky enough to come across something that interested me and then to be able to, you know, have enough self awareness that I identified, you know, what this kind of thing gave to me. And yeah, through that I'm actually able to help other people. Will help. I don't know, basically when I come in, I'm able to spend time with other people that, you know, that they enjoy it as much as I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:25] Speaker D: I'm wondering if there's some sort of almost gender bias in photography in the sense that women are supposed to be able to multitask better than men. So when men start to do something, they're totally focused on it. So when you get out there with the camera, that is the world and you've left your other world behind, you're not thinking about your family life, this, that and the other for hours at a time when you're shooting. Because we're single, focused sort of people as men. [00:16:02] Speaker A: Well, if you look at going into psychology and, you know, neuroscience, after puberty, the male and female brain are completely different. They the way it thinks, it's much easier for us to clear our head and focus on something. The reasons behind that, I'm not an expert, I can't tell you that there's people better qualified than me to explain that to people. But yes, I think that's why you find it's easier for males to have hobbies and also have a hobby and you actually enjoy it. You're not trying to turn it into a hustle or a side hustle or. Yeah, because that's not a hobby, then. That's. I don't know what it is. It's. It's an attempted side hustle. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Well, it's work, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And it's a tricky one for photographers. You know, it's. It's something that I've always been mindful of, you know, taking on because photography for me started As a hobby, it was, it was therapy for me. It got me out of the house. But it's always been a tricky balance to keep my photography in that kind of happy zone where it's not necessarily work and it's not just a hobby, you know, it's kind of, it straddles that, that boundary and because I always feared that doing photography for work would ruin or taint the hobby element, the enjoyment I got out of it, it would just become a jaw or a task or something like that. Because I didn't want to make photography my full time gig, you know, I wanted it to be part of what I do, you know, and, and it's interesting, you know, because we, we come on here twice a week talking with people like yourself, Dave and Greg, and then outside of that time where, you know, Justin and Jim and I were always talking about photography stuff or what's going on and it's, you know, we message each other interesting news articles and you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a hobby, it's fun, it's, it engages us, it makes us happy to do it. But yeah, I find it interesting hearing people's stories where the hobby became the work and whether they missed that way. [00:18:15] Speaker D: It used to be maybe there's, there's three stages instead of two. Instead of hobby work should be hobby project work. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Yep. [00:18:27] Speaker C: Well, the project is, I guess, the passion before it maybe turns into work. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:35] Speaker C: You know, like, like Samantha Olson's book. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:40] Speaker C: You know, like that, That's a huge project that's fueled by passion. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:46] Speaker C: And then once you've got through the project, then like part of the project, like the work begins to then compile at all. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Let me just jump to. I think this is Justin in the chat. He said, I'm guilty of always trying to turn hobbies into businesses. Yeah. And look, some people have that knack, you know, I'm not business minded. Justin's very business minded. You know, he had great mentors, especially with his father in the world of business. So I didn't have that sort of upbringing, I guess. What about you, Dave? You know, were your, were your parents or your family or loved ones supportive of you putting so much into your photography? Did they, you know, kind of say you should turn this into a business, Go and shoot weddings or how did that work for you? [00:19:41] Speaker A: Yeah, this always blows my mind. Everyone's always trying to tell you how to make money out of it. And I'm like, I've already, I've already come to peace. So this is what's going to make me poor. When you, when you truly have a passion or an addiction to something, it's very hard to explain it to someone else who doesn't understand it because they don't have any, anything in their life where they feel that way about. Yeah, they just. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Creative pursuits. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Yeah, they just look at you like you're a weirdo. But it's okay for me. I've never fit in anywhere I've been. I look like everyone else, so I can just walk down the street and no one thinks, geez, that guy's a bit of a weirdo. But I've always thought differently to everyone else. And this is why I like to be around the people that I photograph because they also think like that. Only they also mostly look like they think like that. But I'm very at peace that I don't fit in anywhere. I don't have this longing to fit in with any particular group. Often the longer I hang around a particular group, I think about how I want to run away from that group. You think about. I've been to a few photography events and it always brings back this thing that Anders Peterson said in a podcast once, and he said, you got photography and it's like a pyramid. And when you, when you start out, you're down the bottom of that pyramid and the, the higher you kind of go up through the pyramid towards that pointy, and the more horrible everyone becomes. And you know, I'm thinking, geez, do I have to hang around these kind of people in order to, you know, get something out of my photography? And just sends me away and makes me think, well, what am I doing this for? What's my motivations? Yeah, you know, and then I remember that and then, yeah, I just get back on track and I, I worry about doing what I enjoy and being around the people that I enjoy. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, We've talked often on the show, Dave, about, you know, why do we, why do we shoot? Why do we take photos? Who are we taking photos for? And you know, we've talked about, are we just taking photos now for a little tiny square window on your, on your social media feed that someone's going to flick path? Is that what we're taking photos for? Are we taking photos for personal gratification and, you know, that sort of thing? Dave, I'm really interested in understanding more about, you know, how you said you've never really identified as fitting in with a group. And I've had a very similar experience personally it took me probably 30 years to realize that I don't need to conform, that I can be my own person. And that was a pretty, it was a hard earned lesson. But the realization has actually liberated me to be who I naturally am, to be myself, you know. Did that come to you early in life or was that something that, you know, took some time to realize? [00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's hard because I think I always could see things differently and I never kind of understood why. But once I hit a certain age, I became very introspective and it's part of my personality. I'm, I'm introverted and people always confuse that. We've got this thing at the moment where it's an epidemic of people self diagnosing themselves with anything that they think makes them sound good. So I've never heard so many people claim to be empaths. I've never heard so many people claim to be introverts when they're clearly not. I was, because being introverts, it's, it's not about being shy. There's people that are really shy and they think they're an introvert. But do you, as an introvert, you give people your energy. So it's not necessarily, you can still be shy and be an introvert, but it's not necessarily an introvert, introverted thing to be shy because you're going, you're seeing people and you're conversing with them and you're giving them off energy until you, your energy is depleted and you've got to go back and then you spend time by yourself. But when you're spending time by yourself, this is your favorite thing. You're energized. You love the peace in being by yourself and just putting yourself towards whatever interest that you have. Um, and there's some people that say they're introverted but they can't spend an hour by themselves without, you know, trying to find someone to come and visit them or trying to invite them. [00:24:22] Speaker B: And so is that what it is, is about your love? You know, you just love your own company and that's fine, that's absolutely acceptable to be happy with just your own company. And I think, and Greg can probably talk to this as well. You know, as a street photographer, I always preferred to shoot alone. You know, I've done meetups, I've done meetups in Japan, I've done meetups here. I've met up with, with our Fujifilm group. There I said it, Jim Fujifilm with Greg Carrick, because, you know, he's a Fuji shooter as well. And we've gone on a lot of street walks together. But the interesting thing I find is that people like Greg often disappear from the group. There's people that like to stay in the group and they'll chat the whole way and they'll take very few photos and then Greg will disappear from the group and he'll show up at the agreed meeting point at the end. You know, haven't gone and explored and followed the light. And I think, yeah, as a street photographer, I much prefer to do shoots alone or just as a photographer in general. [00:25:18] Speaker A: But. [00:25:19] Speaker D: But, yeah, yeah, like this, this big thing at Bright coming up in a month or two big photographers meet. I think I'm actually going to be on holiday in Bright that week. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Yay. [00:25:32] Speaker B: We'll see you there. [00:25:34] Speaker D: You might want me to be in the street. That's about it. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker D: Hundreds. Hundreds of photographers in one room freak me out. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it can be a bit much beef up. Can definitely be a bit over the top and a bit. A bit confronting until you get used to it. Dave, you talked earlier on about, you know, that you didn't have those sort of creative inspirations. Can you talk to us about that point where you realize that actually you've got a good eye, that you actually know how to. How to work a camera to create an appealing image, at least for you? [00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah, well, what's appealing for me isn't not appealing for everyone, of course, but I. I always had a. I always had a pretty wide imagination and I always had a interest in anything that was unusual. And then I enjoy. I really enjoyed being the one that had the responsibility of having the camera and taking all the photos when I was growing up. I still do. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:47] Speaker A: So, yeah, I just kind of. I just kind of ran with it. And when I decided to go for that, when I decided to do that first workshop that I did, the one I was telling you about earlier. Yeah, I just. I just realized that I wanted to make more of an effort or just at least learn how to get better at it with no intention of ever doing anything of it other than getting better. But the more time I spent with it, the more I realized the enjoyment I got out of it and I just went from there. [00:27:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And sorry, go on. [00:27:22] Speaker C: I was gonna say it's. It's interesting, Dave. Like the. You say that maybe your photos aren't that appealing. Like having a look through your Instagram. I would say that they're very, like, very appealing. They're such a broad range of subjects all captured very differently, but all uniquely like a unique style to them. [00:27:48] Speaker B: Let me bring up, while we're talking of which, let me bring up some of David's work so we can have a bit of a squeeze. Sorry. For those of you who are watching an audio only podcast, but this is the Nature of the Beast. So this is your landing page of your website, Dave. Obviously you know that, but straight off the bat, you know, you've got these unique, interesting characters and these images are really raw and, you know, really raw and unscripted and, you know, just sort of capturing life in the moment. Talk to us about this, the process that you go through. So say for example, this series here with Grande Bruto, you know, how did that come to be? How did that project evolve for you? [00:28:36] Speaker A: Well, my relationship with my father's difficult. I grew up and I realized my father was very different and he had some problems. He liked the bottle. When I was about 14, I think my mother said to gave my dad the ultimatum, it's me or the kids. And the alcohol. So he chose the alcohol and he left. And then I didn't have any kind of contact with him for about 20 years. Wow. After that time he, I. I had a. A work accident and I was living on the Gold Coast. I came, had to come back down to Port Stevens for the recovery and dad was living in Newcastle. So I got in contact with him and went to meet up with him. And yeah, we started this relationship again. And because for me, I realized that I had spent a lot of time around people that were having addiction or certain weaknesses and I was giving them more compassion than I was giving my own father. So as hard as it was, I started this relationship back with him. But one of the things that made it easy to spend time with him when he was going through these periods, which was tough to be around him. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Was to have the camera. Because the camera really is something that kind of protects you. It puts this barrier between you and them. And if you can use that excuse of being with them and taking the photos, you end up staying there longer, which, you know, it's better for you and them in the end. But I, I was like, I was. Started photographing him and his life and I went and did a three week documentary course for Magnum, which is one of the best things I ever did. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yep. [00:30:41] Speaker A: And part of that we were going through the Tate Britain one day and. No, not Tate Modern, sorry. And there was these photos on the wall through this. So we went in this photography space and there was all these photos of people like Stephen Shaw and just really kind of. I know this. I hope this doesn't piss anyone off, but if it does, too bad boring photos, like photos of uninteresting things with beautiful light. So really it was photos of beautiful light. And. And I'm looking at. I'm going, yeah, it's not bad. But I mean, anyone that's with half a brain can kind of learn how to do that, can't they? There's like a formula to that. And. And where's the challenge? And, you know, and then I was walking through, thinking about how uninspired I was by this. All this work, which. Which was absolutely celebrated work. And other people, they love it. And we're all. We're all allowed to love what we love, but it usually has to do, you know, what you. What you enjoy and what you don't enjoy generally has a lot to do with your personality and your life experiences. But that didn't speak to me that work or all I saw was probably someone who, for me, doesn't really like people and. And has their own way of interacting with the world. That was. Just. Didn't resonate with me. So then I come across these pictures, man. Are you guys familiar with a work by a British artist called Richard Billingham called Razor Laugh? [00:32:11] Speaker B: Billingham is familiar to me, but I don't know that I can pinpoint it. [00:32:15] Speaker A: If I'd have known we were talking about it. I've got the book up there. He's latest one would have get it for you and show you. But basically he photographed. He come from council flats in Birmingham in Britain. And I think. I think the photos were taken around the 19. The 1980s. And he. He documented his parents because he was doing an arts course. And he actually. This is the reader for the book. Have you ever seen this? But he. Yeah, he was documenting his parents and he took all these photos and. And he wanted to use them as a. Because he was doing painting and he wanted to use them as a. What do they call it when the. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Artists like a reference material. [00:33:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway, he ended up doing this fantastic project. He was the first person to kind of photograph their own family from. Which is a little bit dysfunctional. His father was an alcoholic who didn't leave the house. His mother was like a big kind of woman who kind of beat up the husband. But she also had this fantastic way of decorating the house that made. Aesthetically, I just think you couldn't. You couldn't beat something like that. But I saw this And I thought, wow, people actually are allowed to take photos. Like, this is exactly what I'm doing with my dad. And then I went away and I. I looked through everything I could find about it on the Internet, and I decided to keep going with it. And I ended up spending the next. I came back into the country, actually, and then Covid hit and I had to stay here. I couldn't work on the punk thing anymore, so I decided to throw myself at that. And I spent three years with these guys pretty much every day. And I developed this friendship with my father. But when I say that I. There's. There's moments where you have this guy who's really imperfect, not a good man, he didn't treat my mother very well, and he has a lot of weaknesses. But on the upside, these grandiose, narcissistic people, they can be very brilliant at some things. So it's kind of hard to know, but you've got to understand that people aren't black and white. There's a lot of gray. Even. I said this the other day, and someone looked at me like I'm an idiot. But even serial killers, mate. Everyone thinks they must be just the most horrible people in the world. But hang on a minute. They convince someone to marry them, you know, they. There's parts of their life where they're not this horrible person, you know, that's an extreme example, but yeah. So it's difficult to. It was difficult to kind of have this friendship with my father, but I realized I'm not a perfect person I make, especially in the past. I've made plenty of mistakes that I wish I didn't do, but I'm lucky enough that I learned from those. My father, he doesn't really learn from his mistakes, but I realized he wasn't perfect, so I cut him some slack. And he said to me at one point, because when I first started this, he got thrown out of his. Where he was living by the bailiffs. And I had to clean his place, organize all of that. He was in a psychiatric hospital at the time because he'd had a breakdown and he'd been had the crap beat out of him by the next door neighbor who was my age, and a lot of. And the woman next door had stolen all his money. And it was just. Yeah, it was a really difficult thing. And he turned around and he said to me, you know, I've never had a friend in my life like he was. Geez, he was 72 at the time, I think. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:58] Speaker A: He said, I've never had a friend in my life like you. And I just. All I felt for him was sad. How do you get to that age in. And not. Not understand, you know, a real, a friendship, like a proper friendship. And I just felt sad for the guy. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:17] Speaker A: But during that time I again, I wanted to get better as a photographer and I knew I had an interesting subject. So I used all my life experience from. And I was in real estate previously and how I got good at that very quickly was I actually sought out the very best and offered to buy, buy them lunch, spend some time with them if you. They could mentor me and they have no problem with that. What you often find is really successful people, they don't have any problem bringing someone else up. They want to see other people be successful as well. So it didn't intimidate me to try to go to the top. I remember I looked and I thought, who are the best photographers in Australia for me? And I come up with Trent park and Stephen Dupont. And for a brief time I flirted with trying to contact Trent park and I realized he was very difficult to get a hold of. But I was buying some books by Rennie Ellis, which you guys should know. He's from down there in Melbourne. [00:37:20] Speaker B: Yeah, we went to the exhibition with Beef Up a couple of months ago. [00:37:23] Speaker A: Yeah, you know what, I was down in Melbourne at the, at the library and I saw that. I went there with my friend Renata and we sat there for the half an hour or whatever it was. They had all the music and the thing and all I could think was, man, I've got to put more effort into this. This guy is photographing everything all the time. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:44] Speaker A: You know, I've since learned how he did that. It wasn't, you know, he didn't. He had systems in place that allowed him to, you know, be able to shoot every day. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah, but he was shooting film, slide film, you know, and he was going to nightclubs and, and underground drag queen bars and you know, and I think and drawing that comparison with your work as well. You know, life is messy. And you mentioned earlier about how, you know, we're kind of raised to believe that there's this path where, you know, you'll meet someone and you'll, you'll buy a home and you know, those sorts of things, those sort of social expectations that take quite, they take generations to erode. But life is messy. And I think that's what we're seeing in your work is that reality, that rawness of life that's unscripted you know, this is just how people are living. [00:38:43] Speaker A: It is. And I find that it's easy for me to photograph this kind of thing because I have the personality traits to. To be around these people, even with all their imperfections and, you know, and for these people to like me as much as I like them, which is very important, and, you know, try and bring some kind of value to their life. Because if you're gonna sit around and spend so much time documenting people, then you, you know, you need to make sure they're getting something out of it as well. Everything's a. Is quid pro quo the same? Well. Oh, is that. Is it? No. That's not transactional? No. Oh, yeah. Jesus. I don't know why that come to my head, but obviously I'm way up there, but. Yeah, but when I was photographing my dad's stuff, I contacted this mentor. So I ended up. Oh, sorry. I was buying the book by Rennie Ellis and I was chatting to his old secretary who run. Who was running his archive up until just recently, Manuela. And she mentioned she knew Stephen Dupont because he did the editing. So she put me in touch with him because he still had some books available to buy. So I bought them directly off him. And when he sent me the email to send them off, I said, listen, I'm not some tight ass who's trying to save $22, but can I come and pick him up off you? Because there's something I wanted to have a chat to you about. And he. So he said yes. So I went and saw him and I basically asked him if we could strike up some kind of mentorship. And we did. And so while I was doing this project of my father, I was able to spend a full day with Stephen Dupont in his studio once a month. And that was invaluable to have that knowledge and guidance. And he also come up with the idea, because I had this idea that when I do these projects, I always think about where it's going to go and what's. What the projects the finish is going to be. So I was thinking about how to really capture these guys in order to get people excited about it. When the book was ready, I wanted to have some video and I started videoing them and I showed him, and then his idea was to do a documentary movie on them. He said, you know, so. And I was like, ah, yeah, but I know nothing about it. I don't know anything. I'm just. I'm trying to learn how to be a good photographer. That Seems like a lot of extra effort. And he goes, just do it. And that's not my style. I remember when I was living in Sweden, I was thinking, I'm not gonna. That's right, I'll go away, I'll learn this language, and then I'll talk to people once I know how to speak already. But I learned that's not how you do it. Babies don't sit there and be quiet until they know how to talk. They just talk their bad language and they get better and better. That's how you get better. So I gave it a crack and, mate, I've got over 700 hours of footage of these guys. And I had the intention of doing a documentary movie with it, but I actually think it might be a docu series. This is something I put on the back burner because I just simply don't have the finances to go a little bit further with it for the moment. [00:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:54] Speaker A: So I've got some other priorities, but, yeah, I can't even remember the original question, but I hope I answered it all in that anyway. [00:42:00] Speaker B: No, no, it's fine. Really. It's great. And just. Just completely aside from all of that, I have renovations going on upstairs. I'm sorry. So every now and then I'm going to have to myself because of the noise, because they're literally drilling into concrete. You don't want to hear that on a podcast. So from your. From the project you started with your dad, how did you. How did you then take the next step to start seeking, you know, new subjects to work with? How did that. How do those sort of projects evolve for you? Where is it an idea or do you meet someone and that person sparks the idea that maybe I'd like to document them, photograph them, talk us through that process. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah, mate, I. Everything starts out on the street. I get the camera and I go out and I'm photographing. And then I'll try your more traditional street where you're taking candid photos to start with. But if I'm not happy with the photo or I know that there's a better photo to take there, I'll interact with the people and, you know, I'll take a street portrait or something like this. And this is how I came to meet people. But I'd already started to think of projects after that first Magnum course I did. And by the time I. I'd done, then I did a course in Arles in France with Antoine Diego, and that was interesting. That guy is unbelievable. His knowledge of photography and he's What a great person he is too. But then I did the three week Magnum course and then I'd already started thinking of projects, but I still lacked a lot of guidance because I was. I started this as an. At a more advanced age. I didn't have friends that were interested in what I was interested in. I had no real photography friends outside of a couple of guys that I had made friends with in that first. The first course I did and a friend that I was introduced through through one of those guys. And I didn't know what to do, but I was already thinking of projects. So, mate, I did it all wrong. And if I can advise this to anyone, start a project, maybe just do two or three at the same time, try and get it done and then do it that way. Mate, I've still got 18. No, she's gone up. It's 22 open projects at the moment that happen. Yeah. No, but I tell people and they go, oh wow, that's so good. No, it's not. It's a nightmare. And a majority of those are from overseas. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:44] Speaker A: So it's not like I can just pop an hour down the road and know. Work on it. This weekend takes planning. And the longer you stay away from certain places and projects, things can go very, very wrong. Or things can change whole everything. Even to the fact I've been doing a. A project on Muay Thai in Thailand for seven years. So it's almost. I haven't started to do the edit on it yet, but it's. I'm pretty close to it. It's just a matter of getting the time to do it. But if you look at the first half of those photos, it was before COVID and when Covert came, all those gyms and stadiums shut down and did renovations. And it looks like two completely different places. And what I fear is it might two separate projects. And for me, I do majority of time, I do flight sports in black and white as a. Because black and white's my favorite kind of photography. And it's a nod to the old. One of the first photos I ever saw that I really admired was that famous one of Muhammad Ali standing over someone. Kind of a bit of a nod to. Yeah, but if I was doing it in color, the whole thing would be ruined because this big stadium that I was, I have the media pass for that had this really rundown aesthetic or the kind of aesthetic that I like for the stadium in the background in the back. And now it's got freshly renovated looks kind of sterile. And like anything here In Australia, but with fluoro yellow walls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of. A lot of challenges. But I, I tell people if there's anyone here that's starting out or has this idea with what they're going to do with projects, I mean, I have this list. I've got a list on my phone. It's. It's. As long as it's huge, I'll never get to do all this stuff. But just don't go too hard too soon and go for everything and keep it close to home. And all those things people say listen because they know what they're talking about. By the time I'd sought out a mentor, I'd already. I'd gone in pretty deep with a lot of this stuff and now I've had to ignore a lot of this thing and then new things pop up all the time and I'm like, ah, do I really need to start this or what should I do? It can become quite overwhelming. [00:47:16] Speaker B: Yeah, Sorry, Jim, you go. [00:47:19] Speaker C: I was gonna say, does it feel consuming having like so many, I guess, un. Like so much work that you're still wanting to complete or to, you know, work through, you know, with so many projects on the go, does that sort of feel consuming, like, mentally as well? [00:47:39] Speaker A: Mate, this is what I mean. I, I've. Every, Every, Every waking moment is. Nearly every waking moment is thinking about this, working on this, researching something, all to do with all of these projects. So, yes, it's consuming. It's. You've got no idea. It's. But in. In a way that I do enjoy it. But this, at this point now of having all these open projects and so many of them without a close conclusion, it's just now I feel like, just I can. I feel very overwhelmed and there's a lot of pressure and there's. But I feel like it's one of those situations where I, I mean, no, I'm putting control of a lot of. A lot of things. I. Yeah, so. [00:48:40] Speaker B: So Dave. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Smart enough that I'll learn from this. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, and I think that's the crux of it, isn't it? Is that you, you know, you evolve, you learn from it. And we, and like you said earlier, we are all human. We do all make mistakes and sometimes pattern behavior is something that's hard to shake. Do you think that those projects, aside from the, you know, the logistical challenges of having to go back overseas to gain more content for a project, do you think that for you, you know, having reviewed your work, your, Your Work is about the rawness of life. Is it? Because that. That never stops? Is that. Do you think maybe there's a reason there, right, why you've got so many open projects is because life continues, you know, in the way that you document things that. Is it hard to find an end to approach? [00:49:33] Speaker A: It is, mate, because I. I have a relationship with all of these people and the groups of people that I photograph. And so on top of all of this, you know, being overwhelmed by trying to find a way to get to the end of these projects and then don't even get me started on then trying to find a place for these projects to live, because in the current environment, it's not going to be easy for me. But that's a whole nother discussion. But Jesus, what was the question? [00:50:08] Speaker B: I've lost track. I started going. [00:50:10] Speaker D: Well, one of the things is, as photographers, we do get heavily involved in our projects. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Ah, yes. [00:50:19] Speaker D: Now you have multiple projects that you want to complete and many of them, there's no completion date sort of coming at you, so that can be overwhelming. But do you also have other things in your life that interest you, that you can have a break from these projects and do totally separate from photography? [00:50:43] Speaker A: No. No, I have. I have photography and then I have the relationship with the people that I photograph. That's my life. [00:50:53] Speaker B: So it's really all consuming for you. It's. You can't let it go. You're always working with a photographer's mind. [00:51:00] Speaker A: It's a decision that I made. I'm not joking, mate. I. I'll never get married, I'll never have kids, I won't date again. It's photography for me. [00:51:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow, that's really. That's really powerful. So, Dave, what. What sort of advice would you give people that, you know, that are looking to sink their teeth into a project? Where, where should people start? How do they. How. How do you recommend they get into something? [00:51:28] Speaker A: First thing, close to home. Second thing, find something that you're really interested in. Don't go and look at what someone else has done and decide that you want to do that too, because that person got a lot of likes and comments and things on Instagram. Find something that you really like and that you're happy to spend a lot of time on. And it's not going to feel like work when you're doing it because you're enjoying it. And yeah, depending on where you are, ask someone that you admire or, Or a friend who's got more experience than you to take a look at it and ask, ask them for genuine feedback. Don't ask them just to tell you, oh, that's wonderful, that's fantastic. If you want to get better, you're going to have to get used to getting a little bit of criticism. And when people criticize your stuff, don't be so attached to it that you can't take that, like put your ego away and then just throw yourself at this thing and consume yourself. Have a look and see what's best been done around that to see if you know what, what can you add to this conversation. But have a real think about it. I see people that are good photographers that are doing, chasing projects that they think is going to help them become famous or get attention or get published, whatever it is. But it, it's not a project that suits their personality or their skills. So I don't know what's a good example. I see a lot of stuff at the moment where you have these very good portrait photographers and they'll go to some environment, like for example, Slab City in United States. It's a famous kind of place where there's all these people that live in caravans and you know, and they fly in for three days and they shoot with a format camera, portrait, 400 beautiful, in the beautiful light and they take some very nice photos. But then when it gets published in the newspaper and stuff, they go on about how this inter. It's so intimate and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's nothing intimate about it. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Yeah, you flew in, flew out, very skilled. [00:53:37] Speaker A: Pay them. Sorry, give them the credit for what they are, which is very talented photographers who have found aesthetic that they, they can really nail and it looks good. But don't try and paint it as this because what I'm seeing a lot at the moment, if you go back and you look at these documentary photographers of yesteryear and you do your research, they did great subjects, really good topics, but they did it very well. And they, they spent a lot of time and, and that has to do with, you know, back then when they were getting paid for these kind of things, they were given a decent wage where they could spend a lot of time and. Yeah, have a look at. Was it Eugene Smith when he went to Japan? You know, he got to spend a lot of time and had the resources. But so now you're doing it often on your own finances and you have to find your own time to do it. But yeah, made. I've lost track of what I was saying. [00:54:35] Speaker B: No, no, it's all good, really. It's all good. We're talking about people taking up projects and you know, and I think the point that you're making, which is obviously, you know, you can see this in your work, is that you know these people, you have a relationship with these people that's, that's developed and fostered over years, not days. And I think that's, that's kind of the difference we see in your work at the, at that sort of polish level that it's at. It's very raw, it's very real. But these people clearly feel comfortable around you and that, that takes a relationship to do that. You know, most people, when you point a camera at them, they change their Persona changes, their ego kicks in. You know, it's like doing street where, you know, I prefer to do candid street photography more documentary style without engaging with the person. But every now and then I'll sit down next to someone, we'll have a chat and I'll take their photo, you know, and, and again that's, I'm not really building a relationship because half an hour later I've forgotten who they were, what their name was, you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think that there's definitely an investment there in projects that maybe people misunderstand or, or you know, eventually that overwhelms them because like, oh wow, there's so much involved here, you know, getting to know these people. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Well, mate, when I started, when I did that Magnum course and I started to look at all these different photographers, you know, I, at first I had a real thing for Diane Arbus because of the kind of people she photographed. But then I bought, got her book, the Revelations. It's a kind of like a retrospective of her life. But then I, I was reading her direct letters and I realized she didn't like the people that she photographed. And this is no man, she hated them. She just was going out to photograph freaks thinking that was going to make her famous. When it did happen, she topped herself. Yeah, it's, it's a. And so I kind of went off. I still enjoy and think she's taken some really good photos, but it kind of put me off her because it's not enough for me just to take good photos because anyone can kind of learn how to do that. It's this relationship. But that's when I come across the old Mary Ellen mark, you know. But this, this is tiny, I think. Is it? Yeah. She did a, I think a 20 something year long project with her. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Wow. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Yep. But I, how I. The first I saw her work. And I thought, this is fantastic. This, this lady is probably the most underrated portrait photographer out there. And then I watched a, I watched a, a lecture she did on YouTube and she was rattling off all the names of the people that she photographed. The photo would come up and she'd tell the name. But then you actually go on to YouTube and I go into these massive deep dives when I find a photographer that I really like. And I was watching stuff about Diane Arbus and at first this narrative that they've put out there in the photo community, that she was this champion of freaks and that she was such a nice person, blah, blah, blah. If you actually go on deep dive, they come across these people that she's photographed and there was this tattooed guy and he was just going, yeah, she was a weirdo. I don't know. When I first met her, I didn't even like her. I got a really bad vibe from her. I didn't want her to photograph me. But then she stalked me down and I just thought it, I'll let her photograph me. And then, yeah, anyway, the photo went everywhere. But the narrative that these photo people have given her is very different. And like I said, if you, if you get that book and you read through and you actually read her, her letters to someone else, you can, yeah, you can really see that she, she had no affinity for these people. And that's why I like Mary Ellen Mark. I think she's the love and affection and kindness she showed to the people that she photographed. And she also had this ability to go into a community. And if you look at Mariella Mark, as opposed to Diana for example, Diana was taking these one off kind of photos. I think she did a good series in a, in a mental institution somewhere that was pretty good. But Diane, sorry, Mary Ellen Mark would go to a whole community. So she was in say Bombay for example, in. Was it Bombay or Bangladesh? It was either the Indian or Bangladeshi, this very famous red light district. And she embedded a. Amongst these people and did a whole photo project there. And you've gotta, in order to, to spend that much time around people, you really need to, they. You need to really get their trust and to. You need to be bringing some value to them, you know, whether. Even if that's just that you turn up, you know, tomorrow to photograph them and when they first see you, and this for me is success in photography and they smile and you see it in their eyes, that genuine twinkle they have in their eyes that when they see you for the first time and they forget you were coming. And they're so happy to see you because they genuinely like to spend time around you. [00:59:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I see that in Mary Ellen. I don't see it so much in Diane. [00:59:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So with, you know, obviously you seek a lot of inspiration and guidance from peers of the past. So from these people and you had their books. What sort of lasting impact do you hope to have with your work? [01:00:12] Speaker A: Mate, I never really thought about that. And to be honest, I'm actually. I hate that when people say, to be honest, I don't know. I was listening to some YouTube stuff yesterday and now I've picked it up, but I. I'm putting it off the. To think about that. I did a lot of deep thinking about why. What's my motivation behind taking photos and what's my motivation behind entering competitions or trying to get these things published? And I answered them and I'm happy with those answers. But this idea of what do you want to do? Like, how do you want to be remembered? How do you want the people you photograph to be remembered? Probably should be more important. I haven't come to a definitive answer on that yet. All I know is that I'm. I'm doing something that I enjoy. [01:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:09] Speaker A: More often than not, the people that I'm around enjoy it as much as I do. And it brings me some kind of purpose. And I think purpose bring. If you have a purpose, it brings you like a happiness. [01:01:25] Speaker B: Yep. I'd agree with that. And so is. Is a book on the horizon for you? [01:01:30] Speaker A: Mate, it's been on the horizon for a long time, but I think I've got a bit of a problem with. The problem with having all these books around here is that I've seen so many good books, good quality books and good work that you realize when it comes out in a book form, you can't add to it. So it's a finished product and it kind of holds me back and. But I was supposed to be putting out my first book in November, but I put that off and now that was going to be to do with the wrestling that I'm doing at the moment. The Sydney scene. The wrestling. But it's now going to be two books. I've decided. One will be the Sydney scene for the wrestling and the second one will be a portrait book for wrestlers, but that'll be Australia wide, so I need to spend a bit more time to do the Australia wide part. And. But even then that's. That's that specific book. There's not going to be so many photography fans that'll buy that. But it's more for the people that I photographed because. [01:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yep. [01:02:36] Speaker A: They have this kind of short. It's like a professional sportsman, you have a short life where you do this kind of thing but you kind of want these memories. So when you're fat and old you can show your kids. Yeah, this was Mumble dad and this was us, these people. And yeah, so it's more for the, for them, the fans. They have this very loyal fan base as well. So yeah, I'm looking forward to try to get that together. But closely followed after that. I think the. I really want to get the punk one done and dusted but I'm not quite finished there yet. Last year I went there and I really should have finished it but this is that problem you get when you really have this relationship with these people. They needed a friend more than they needed a photographer last year. So yeah, okay, here I am and I haven't finished it. But you need to human being first, photographer second. Yep, yep. [01:03:36] Speaker C: We don't want to like ruin the relationship or push people when they're not necessarily in the right headspace to be accepting of photos and stuff like that. Like you've. [01:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well Jim, you're spot on, mate. But the thing is I've had now relationship so I started photographing them when I did that three week course in 2019. So that's what, six years. So you've got six years of people that are basically homeless. Basically. Majority of them poly addicts. Not you know, the way that they eat, they skip. They go out to the, to the garbage bins behind supermarkets and things and get the food out of there. It's not a healthy lifestyle and I've known them for six years but they were doing it well before that. So it started. These health problems and issues have started to come up with some people. Yeah. Like I said they. I ended up spending more time taking people to the hospital and cleaning up. Yeah. Feces they'd put all over like you know, when they pooped himself. And it's. It's a. Yeah, it's a different, it's a different thing. But it goes back to what I said. You can't just go in and get what you want and. And then not. [01:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Life is messy. [01:05:01] Speaker A: Well, it's a genuine friendship and a genuine. Ship's not a one way thing. It's. It goes both ways. So you can't just. You want. Without giving anything back. [01:05:12] Speaker B: Yep. Might just jump to a couple of quick comments. This one here by, these are from a little while ago, but from Roy. G', day, Roy. I'd love to go out on the streets, but then I remember all the people. Yeah, I, I, I have that problem sometimes. Sometimes I don't want to go out and face people and take photos. I get it. Nick Fletcher. G', day, Nick. Sorry I'm late. And, uh, well, just turned up to the bit that is going to get you all canceled. I think that was when David mentioned someone's penis, but we'll let that slide. It's from Justin. We talked about that earlier, didn't we? Sorry, guys. Dennis Smith from School of Light. Dave. Thank you, man. This is perfect. And Neil Leach. G', day, Neil. I think our tolerance with people lessens the older we get, especially if you are an only child. I'm not an only child, but, yeah, I get that. [01:06:12] Speaker A: But shouldn't it, shouldn't it actually be. I understand the thinking behind that. Because you get frustrated easy because, you know, things annoy you. But shouldn't you be learning to be more compassionate as you get older and understand people? [01:06:26] Speaker D: I think so. Wouldn't it? Yeah. I've seen that so often. [01:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah, Used to be perfect. [01:06:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:33] Speaker D: Grumpy old man syndrome. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's a, it's a real thing. You, you know, your tolerance for things does lessen and, you know, sometimes I'll go down a spiral on something that really annoys me and then I'll have to pull myself back and say, well, hang on, that's, you know, you just being a grumpy old man again. And my partner, Sash will, will often call out you being a grumpy old man. So I've got that nice safety safety feature baked into the relationship from Lisa this time. Lisa Leach, just 30 years ago, Greg. It's a tricky one to navigate. I can't remember what that's in. Relationship relation. [01:07:09] Speaker C: You're saying that it took you 30 years to sort of realize that? [01:07:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, very much so. I was raised by a family where we had to conform and it took me a long time to break that, so. And here's Sam. Speak of the devil. Sorry I'm late. Just open to see Greg 2.0, only the beard is a little bigger. Yeah, that's me in the future, Sam. That's, that's how I'm going to turn out. Just like Greg Carrick. It's, it's a dream of mine. [01:07:39] Speaker D: You have to work your eyebrows down. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I'VE got to thicken them up a bit, Greg, to be like yours. I think it's from Dennis again. The Billingham work is incredible. Yeah, agreed. It's. It's pretty masterful. David, dear. Parker's in the chat. A brother from another mother to me. That's for you, Dave. [01:07:59] Speaker A: He's quite a very well renowned photographer, I believe. [01:08:03] Speaker B: He is indeed. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Yes, indeed. He's in a. How I know about him is he's in a collective with Stephen Dupont and the late Tim Page and that kind of thing. And that was. It must have been like a golden age of Australian photojournalism or, you know, slash documentary or whatever then. Unbelievable. You know, the photos that those guys take. [01:08:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And we will have David Dare Parker on the show in hopefully before the year's out. We're just trying to negotiate a date that suits him. Lisa, again, talking about your, you know, your passion for photography and how it's everything for you, Dave. Lisa said it's a, it's a vocation for you. [01:08:47] Speaker A: Well, I thought that Vacation when I. [01:08:51] Speaker C: First read it and I was like, oh, that's a bit. No vocation. [01:08:58] Speaker A: It has a connotation of work, though. [01:09:00] Speaker B: It does a vocation, doesn't it? Yeah. And Robert. G', day, Robert. It's too dangerous to photograph street people. It can be. You've got to be careful. You know, we've talked about this on the show before and Crackers and I have been on shoots where people have objected, you know, and I think it's a tricky thing to navigate, you know, because. And we see it a lot more and more and more these days where people claim they know their rights or they claim they know the law and they'll call you up for photographing them when they're in public and say that that's illegal and that they don't consent and, you know, it's, it's a minefield. It's. It's tricky. And if you happen upon the wrong person, they can be, they can be tricky to deal with. They can have anger, they can be, you know, threatening. So there's always that, there's always that risk with street photography. Greg, have you ever been pulled up by anyone that you've taken a shot of and, and they've had a crack at you? [01:09:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, it does happen, but it is rare. Most of the time you can calm them down by giving them a win. It's their ego. They want to be able to control what you're doing. So if you panted it a bit to you know, delete the photo, whatever, walk away, apologize. Then they think they've won, so they're happier then. But if you stand your ground and, and argue back, you're just going to get our long argument. [01:10:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I've seen, I've seen a couple of them turn aggressive, not against me. I've had people question why I'm doing photography. You know, had plenty of that, but I've never had anyone kind of get really, really angry. I know, I've seen it happen and it's. It's pretty ugly. [01:10:53] Speaker D: Once they realize you're using a Fujifilm, they settle down. [01:10:57] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They know that you're harmless, basically. [01:10:59] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:11:01] Speaker B: A word to the wise. [01:11:03] Speaker C: Have you had any pushback with your work. [01:11:07] Speaker A: Mate? Yeah, but it's all how you handle it. Yeah, I've been in some pretty dangerous situations in, in some pretty dangerous parts of the world. The, the. One of the toughest place is to take to do street photography is actually in Britain because you're dealing with a. Where there's a high instance of mental health problems. But they also tend to carry knives. So you have to be able to have a real situational awareness. There was one particular time in Chinatown there, in London around Soho. There was a massive, massive homeless guy who he got. And it's always someone. Most of the time it's someone. The person getting upset isn't the one you're even photographing. I was photographing someone else and this person decided to get upset. But I started out to be so, you know, man, I'm not out here to piss anyone off, you know, I've got no problem. I'll delete it. It's all right. Just relax. And he, he saw that as some kind of weakness and he kept coming closer and closer. But it's that situational awareness. I knew what he was doing. He was measuring me out. He was trying to get close enough and he was going to hit me. So then I turned around and stood up to him and, you know, gave him a few choice words and told him how it was and for him. And he kind of, you know, rode off a little bit, then turned around, abused me all the way up the street. But I had to leave. I had to leave the area that I was photographing because they come back. Yeah. When I was in Uganda, I had five guys. I. This was the first. My second day in the country and I had two cameras hanging off me. And I'd been into this particular place where even the locals don't go. And it was Just a naivety. And I was on my way home from there after I'd had a. Had a problem in there. But I was on my way back to the hotel and these five guys jumped out and said, you give me the camera. And I said, what? And they basically were trying to attempt to mug me for these cameras. And basically I thought, okay, how do I deal with that? So I picked them up and I looked at the camera. So you want these ones? And he. And he go, yeah, you give me the cameras. And I said, ah, no, no. I said, these ones are for the big boys. I said, you go away and grow some muscles. You come back, then I'll give you the cameras. And he's. Four friends started laughing because they have a really good sense of humor. And it broke the. And he lost all these confidence. And now I. Every time I go back, I go past where these guys sell their clothes. He's not. His name was Musa, the main guy. And I take them back the photos I took from last time. I give him a couple of. Of prints, small prints, the shitty ones you get from Kmart and that kind of thing, but they're happy. And then they beg me, they say, send me, because they try to work out a way they can work for me while they're on there that time. And they say, we'll be your security. And I said, I said, if I need you guys as security, I'm really in trouble. Yeah. So it really, it really has to do with how you deal with situations, but it really helps to have some. This is something I learned from real estate, where they. Everything they say to you is a script. They've already practiced this in the office when they do this scripts training. So I have, you know, things that I say, it's there in my head straight away. And then when something happens, I say it. And I've already practiced how to say this. And it comes. [01:14:21] Speaker C: So you're not flustered. [01:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah, not at all. Because, you know, tough, really tough guys don't go around telling you what they're going to do to you before they do it. Yeah, Someone that does that is measuring you for. To see if they can intimidate you. And if you show intimidated, then you're. You're in trouble. But again, it's a situation where you need to know how you are. And we're all different because a advice that for someone who is. Looks like me compared to someone who's of the opposite sex and, you know, 50 kilos less, it's going to be very different. You know, but you need to, you think about these things in advance. But one thing I'll say is when the gentleman that made the question about going out on the street, I don't know if that was because he doesn't like people, he doesn't want to go out there or it's, they frustrate him or whatever. But being someone, a couple of guys who've been out on the street, the two Greg's, you kind of went into this thing about how some people don't like to get their photos taken. But we have this thing in our head and people do it all the time. They have this idea that if they photograph someone that they're going to be pissed or if they go and ask someone if they're going to photograph them that the answer is going to be no. So I would say I've probably asked maybe a thousand people, I don't know if it's accurate but at least on the street if I can take their photograph. And probably no more than 20 have ever said no. I've to look like me and have a big camera like me. You, there's this idea of going to some place, especially in a foreign country and blending in and no one seeing you and being able to take candid photos. You turn up there, you try and get your candid one but once they notice you, that's gone. [01:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, so I noticed that in a lot in Japan, you know, I'm a big guy and I've got, I've got a big ginger beard. At the time it was probably as long as Greg Carrick's and people were asking to take photos with me, like I was the subject and I was there to do street photography. That was the purpose of the holiday, of the trip and more often than not they wanted to take photos of me. It was, and you're right, it does change as soon as you step into a scene, you know, when you look significantly different to other people, the whole mood changes, you know, the whole, the, you are influencing what is going on before you. You know, there's no avoiding that in that sort of situation. It's, and it's, you know about working with what you've got. Dave, you mentioned that you know about having a couple of cameras hanging off. Let's talk gear. What, what sort of gear do you shoot with when you're doing this sort of work, mate? [01:17:01] Speaker A: So when I first started out I did a bit of research trying to work out what kind of camera I should get. And the consensus was that Canon seemed to Be pretty good. So I bought Canon. My first ever camera was a Canon 7D. And, mate, I've stuck with Canon ever since for what I do, the variety of things. So for sport, portrait, street documentary, I just don't think you get a better camera that does all of it. So. [01:17:33] Speaker B: Especially once you throw sport into the mix, mate. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Sport, yeah, you can't. So we'll. But when I say that you've got offerings from Nikon that are probably as good, nearly as good with the sport, I think Canon has a better autofocus, has better color science. The thing I like about it too is for all of the situations I've been in and all of the travel and everything, they're unbreakable. It's like, they're like, built like a tank. But I've got a friend who works in a camera store and they said the number one camera that's constantly getting sent in for repairs are Sony's. And he said, followed by Fuji. So they're always in for repairs. He said. So, yeah, you might not be spending as much when you buy these cameras, but is it worth it when you, you know, they're always in for repair. But yeah, so I think the best photographer, the best camera for a photographer, what is that? People say, oh, is the one you have on you. Yeah. Okay. But if you've got the one on you, if you've got like a Leica Q2 and you want to shoot a football match, no, it's not the best camera you can have. So really? Yeah, you just got to find the best camera for what you do. And what. What kind of photography do you do? Okay, now I know what kind of photography I do, then I can determine which camera is best for me. But I, I can't speak high enough, highly enough about Canon. [01:18:56] Speaker B: So you're shooting mirrorless now you've moved on from DSLR or you still shooting DSLR? [01:19:00] Speaker A: I shoot with a. An R5. And me, I think it's. It's not. I don't think it's the best camera at anything, but it's the best camera for anything. And if you also factor in that I shoot film. So you've got those four types of photography that I predominantly shoot and then film. And the Canon R5, it shoots 8K. Very nice. It's shooting C log. I'm getting. There's not another camera you could give me that would be. Would be close to capable enough to do the stuff that I do? [01:19:36] Speaker D: Okay, that's. That's bodies. What about lenses? [01:19:40] Speaker A: So, mate, Because I'm poor. And in order to fund these trips to try and. To try and, you know, finish off these things overseas, I've sold everything off. I've got one camera, one lens. So the lens is a 28-70 F2, which is just brilliant, but it's a one and a half kilos, so. Yeah. [01:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's a workhorse, isn't it? [01:20:03] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I've got the camera here. I've shot some, you know, like, look at the size of this bloody thing. [01:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:11] Speaker A: You know, everyone's, everyone says to me, geez, that's a big camera. I see. Here, feel it. And I always joke around with. People say. I say, you know, I've never been to the gym. I just carry this around and they go, really? [01:20:24] Speaker D: I, I haven't seen a rig like that with the side handle and the flash on top of that since my film days. [01:20:31] Speaker A: Well, mate, the old. I got the inspiration off the old Hammerhead flashes. Yeah. Because if you, you only need to move that, you know, move the flash off the camera just slightly and it makes such a difference. Of course, I would love to be on a. If you look at. There's a really good photographer who was good with flash. His name was Larry Fink, he died last year. I think he's American photographer and he shot some pretty interesting things from high society in America. He did a project on boxing, he did some other things, but he actually was teaching. So he would bring this because the students would volunteer so he wouldn't have to pay him. And they would come out and he would basically get them to stand, I don't know, about 45 degrees to 60 degrees off camera with this flash and he would shoot and they would basically just have to watch where he is and go over and stand there. So he was having some really good. For me, he was probably the, the first guy I saw that was doing off camera stuff off camera flash. That was really interesting. But so for me, I'm going to invest in a Ricoh GR4 when it comes out at the end of the year. [01:21:40] Speaker B: Nice. [01:21:41] Speaker A: That camera, it's just got so big and heavy that I just can't carry it around with me everywhere. Yeah, I want something I can carry with me everywhere. I really enjoyed the Ricoh GR2 and the Rico GR3 and I wish I'd never sold them. [01:21:55] Speaker C: So it sounds like you need a lucky camera strap. [01:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, nice segue, Jim. [01:22:03] Speaker C: Banner and everything. Look at this. [01:22:05] Speaker B: We do have the banner going, all. [01:22:07] Speaker A: The buttons, even the way you said it you wouldn't even tell he had anything to do with them if you. [01:22:12] Speaker B: Not at all. Yeah, but yeah, the, the smaller ricoh, the Ricoh GR4. I think the biggest issue that I've always had with, with wanting to. Because I shoot Fujifilm and I have to go for lightweight gear because I've got a bad neck. So you know one of my favorite street cameras is like this little Fujifilm X70 fixed lens, 35, 27 mil equivalent. You know for me shooting street, I don't think it would matter. Sometimes I'll use my phone, you know some it's. It's more about the process for me than the, than the final image because often those images I don't even publish, even on my socials. It's more about that experience. Yeah, but yeah, the gi. Sorry about the knocking guys. The GR4, when that comes out, I just hope that Ricoh get on top of their stock control issues because the GR3s, the X and the. What was it a HCF version for both. So there's like four force core SKUs plus they've got about three special edition models of the GR3. I've got like a street, a diary and there's a four. There's a third one but they were never in stock. You could never find stock of them. They were perpetually out of stock. So you know, I just hope that that Ricoh do get on top on top of that and actually meet demand. [01:23:37] Speaker A: I fear that they're not going to because I think it's actually become a bit of a bragging give a brag with the camera brands. Oh well our stuff's selling so good that now we can't get any parts and then they're hoping that then makes their product look more popular than it is and everyone wants, you know what people like their sheep. But I just. Ever since the first company did that in covert, they're all doing it now for every camera thing that come out. Can they really be struggling that much or is it a marketing? [01:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I've often wondered that. You know, especially with some of the Fuji releases over the past couple of years have been called into question over that, you know the, the X100 mark VI, you know they announced stock delays before it was even released. You know and the recently Sony with the R, Was it the RX1R Mark III? Is that what it's called? The new one that just got released the fifth but same thing, they've just claimed that, you know, it hasn't even hit markets yet and Sony are claiming that they're having trouble meeting demand, but someone did a bit of investigative reporting and said, yeah, but they're in stock in every shop. Everyone's saying they've got them like for pre order. So, yeah, it is, it is an interesting state of play when, when camera brands claim that they can't meet demand. And I wonder how much of that is about caution for them, about not overproducing products, not being caught out in another Covid like situation where they've ramped up stock for sale and then all of a sudden someone, you know, the world shuts down and everyone stops buying. I think camera companies, obviously, they were hurt by that, that experience of COVID but I think there's a lot of caution from them now about overstocking a product or creates. [01:25:31] Speaker D: They got to the stage now where they will stop production of a line for maybe 12 months before the replacement comes in. Yeah, because before you used to be able to buy the camera and then the new one will come in. They'd both be on the shelf. Yeah, the X84, like the X84, they stopped making that ages before the XC5 came out. Yeah, you just couldn't get them. [01:25:55] Speaker B: Yeah, no, you can't. Yeah, you're right. You'd be lucky to find a new one anywhere. Let me just jump. [01:26:00] Speaker D: I don't want to have all this stock, you know, sitting in a factory somewhere. [01:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and look, storing stock is expensive. You know, it's real estate. That's what it requires to store product is, is real estate. And you know, that's one of the most, One of the biggest overheads for any company is real estate. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to see if that continues into the future or if brands actually, I mean, I, I just can't with all the data that they have on sales over the last, you know, someone like fujifilm, they've got 90 years worth of data to pull from. I just don't understand how they can misjudge the demand. Every single late release, you know, it's. I think there is, like Dave said, I think there's something more at play there. Let me just jump to a quick question from Dennis because he's had to bolt. Have to go. David, this has been a memorable hour. It's a remarkable hour. Thank you so much for the inspiration, honesty and genuineness. I'll be back for the rest later on. Have a great day. Dennis, thanks for, thanks for hanging out. So you said you shoot film, Dave, what sort of film camera are you Running around with. And what's your go to film stock? [01:27:09] Speaker A: Well, no, mate, I've got one film camera to Yashika635. So that's the old twin, twin lens reflex, but it's the one you can also shoot 35mil as well. It's got, got an adapter there. [01:27:21] Speaker B: Oh wow. [01:27:21] Speaker A: I haven't pulled it out for a while, but when I meant film, I meant filming I make. Yeah. [01:27:28] Speaker B: Oh, sorry, I misheard you. [01:27:30] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, so for, for filming I, I, I use the same camera I used to shoot. So. [01:27:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so you're doing like a hybrid setup. [01:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah, get my bang for buck, that's for sure. [01:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah, Justin does. [01:27:44] Speaker D: We got this new word nowadays called video. [01:27:51] Speaker B: Wow, A slick burn there from Greg Carrie. Yeah. So Justin, our, our, our humble leader. He also, he shoots with a Canon R5 Mark II. That's his prime body and he was an original R5 owner, but he also shoots hybrid content and yeah, he can't say enough good things about the camera. Does the Mark II interest you or is it not necessary for what you do? [01:28:18] Speaker A: No, yeah, yeah. Market Mark 2 is a fantastic camera. [01:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm not offering to buy you one, don't get me wrong. And we've got one here in the box though. [01:28:29] Speaker A: Well, mate, I'm, I'll be in the market for one but for the moment I, I can't afford to upgrade. The best I can do is get the RICO when it comes out and that'll help. I'll really get out and shoot more straight. I've been pretty, yeah, I haven't shot straight for, I think I've only done Geez in the last five or six months. I think I've only been out three times. So. Yeah, yeah, I need, I need to get the, the RICO just to make it easier and then to always have a camera on me because yesterday I was driving. I don't know if you guys have been getting a lot of rain where you are, but we've been getting a lot of rain here. I've never, I've never remembered a winter this wet, but I, We've got a thing down near the local shops and they've this massive, massive pothole and it's now filled up with water and someone's put a rubber ducky in there. [01:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think having a little fixed lens point and shoot for that sort of incidental stuff is so much nicer than. Yeah, you can pull out your phone, you can take a shot of it and that's fun. But It's. It's a different experience, isn't it? Because you. We just use our phones for so much stuff. It's nice to have that, a camera that's independent, purely for capturing those moments. Can I ask you. Sorry. Sorry, buddy. [01:29:49] Speaker C: I was gonna say, like, on your phone, like, it can just get lost. You take a photo and then you just kind of forget it's there. [01:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then you go to notification. So you go to that and then you. Yeah. So, Dave, looking ahead, what's coming up for you in the immediate future? What have you got planned? What. What's going to be happening? I know that you've done. I mean, you've. You've entered a number of awards and won a number of awards in the past and you've had exhibitions, anything like that on the horizon? [01:30:24] Speaker A: Mate, I've got. Well, I don't know. I don't know what I can say. I've made it to the final of a competition. But you're not allowed. I don't think I'm allowed to say anything about it yet. As for things I can talk about, part of a group exhibition, September over in London. It's called Shrine of the Muses. It's run by Chloe Juno and Danielle Brown. I have a solo exhibition. I don't know if I'm allowed to announce that either, but with like, with Head on in November, and that'll have to do with wrestling. What else have I got on? I know I've got more, I just can't think of it. But early next year will probably most likely be the wrestling book come out, so. And then for me, it's just I really need to get back overseas to try and complete the punk thing and to keep working on my movie over in Uganda. So, yeah, mate, that's it. But really enjoying shooting the wrestling at the moment because how I even got into that was I was shooting my project on my dad. And as rewarding as that could be, it can also be very difficult. So I wanted a bit of a mental break. So I was looking at my list of things that I thought about photographing and I saw the. The wrestling. So I got in contact with one of the federations, went down and shot that. I went and shot another one the next night and I was hooked up. I thought, right, yeah, I'm going to do this one alongside the project to my dad. So I've been doing that for five years, I think. Although last year I didn't get to shoot anything because of. I was overseas for some time. But yeah, man, I've really enjoyed it. The, the people in the community are really, really good. The fans, the wrestlers, everyone that helps out with the whole shows, they're fantastic people and I really, really enjoy getting to spend time with them. [01:32:40] Speaker B: And what drew you to that subject? What drew you to the wrestling, mate? [01:32:44] Speaker A: I like anything that's got a bit of action, something with a bit of excitement. I've had a pretty exciting life, so I tend to gravitate towards things that aren't boring. And wrestling is definitely not boring. It's made. It's actually like a really fun two and a half hours where they put on this show and it's kind of escaped from the rest of the world. They, they have these matches. Usually there's a heel the bad guy and a face the good guy, and it's quite good entertainment. But for the wrestling, when I was a young kid, I, I really enjoyed it and then somewhere along the lines my dad ruined it for me and told me it wasn't real and I, like stopped watching it. So then I got back into it. But I now photographing it, you see all the nuances and I realized just how, how good these people are. And yeah, I really enjoy it. [01:33:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. Is it? I remember growing up watching. Was it WWF originally? The American? [01:33:44] Speaker C: Yeah, originally, yeah. [01:33:46] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. [01:33:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:47] Speaker C: Wf. Sorry. [01:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's okay. It's, you know, and it's funny. Then you see, you know, you see these people that we watched as wrestlers as kids and like Hulk Hogan's just passed away recently and you get these little snippets of them every now and then. You're like, oh, wow, they're still doing something. You know, they're still still relevant in some way. It's. It's really interesting. [01:34:11] Speaker A: But another thing to answer your question with that, if you want to do anything with your photography, it's a good idea to shoot things that no one else has already shot or other people aren't shooting. [01:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:27] Speaker A: In the day and age of, you know, social media and the narcissism academic epidemic, people just see what someone's done on, on Instagram and go, wow, that person got this many likes and that many comments. If I shoot that, I'm going to get the same thing. And they rush, they rush out and just basically do the same thing as everyone else. And you also have that thing of the narcissistic supply where everyone's uploading all the time. Even though the photos are bad, they're not being selective with what they're uploading or. So we're just in this sea of photos. And if you, if you just want to photograph what everyone else is photograph, everything's going to get lost amongst all those bad photos and some of the good photos and nothing's really going to happen. There's nothing special. So that was part of the reason when I looked at my list of things to photograph and I saw the wrestling, no one's done a, in Australia has done a project on the wrestling and I thought, okay, I used to enjoy the wrestling. Let's go back and have a, have a look to see if I enjoy it now. No one else has done this and it fits into the things that I like to do where there's some, some kind of excitement and for the people involved, fantastic people. So I can spend a lot of time with these people. Yeah, but I think that's a point a lot of people don't get. They go out and copy other people or they're influenced by other people or they just shooting what other people are shooting. You said before you get on the streets down in Melbourne, you've got some really good street photographers down in Melbourne, but they don't need to shoot all the same stuff, I think, because I think they'd maybe get more recognition than they get because the quality of street photographers down there is very good. But it's just everyone photographing the same thing, the same place and yeah, it just lost. And I just don't, I don't think it helps them to get the, get the, you know, the attention on their work that they should be having. [01:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? You know, doing street photography in Melbourne or anywhere really. You know, you go to these places where you think, okay, well, this provides me with a, a great composition. And the lights, the right coming at the right angle and you're just waiting for the right characters to step into frame. But you look around you and there's 30, 40 tourists holding up their smartphone doing exactly the same thing. You know, you're the, you're the weirdo with a, with a normal camera. You know, it's, it's an interesting thing. So what, what is your advice to people? To seek that are looking to seek something that makes them unique, something genuine, something that's different from everyone else. What's the best bit of advice you'd give someone? [01:37:11] Speaker A: Spend a bit of time with yourself. Learn about yourself. Be introspective. You want to know what? Something unique. You're unique. So what is it about your personality? That's unique. What is it about how you see the world that's unique? We all see the world differently because we all have a different way that we're brought up. We have so many different life experiences. We have so much art, films, literature that we've consumed that makes us very different to other people. So if you want to just. It's okay when you learn and you're starting out is to imitate a photographer that you admire. I don't think there's anyone that's picked up a camera that hasn't done that at some point. But what can you add to what they've done? If you want to stay with that style, or if you. You can't just try and copy other people, or you can't just do what everyone else is doing. It's, you know, and you think about. We live in Australia. It is a. It's a fantastic country with so many different personalities, so many different things. So many different. Different things are on. If you can't find something unique to photograph in this country, then send me your camera. I'll. I'll. I'll take. I'll take it off your hands. [01:38:26] Speaker D: There's a flip side to that, though, in the sense that just because someone famous has a style doesn't mean you can't do that as your own style. In genuinely, you know, I find I like Mariama very good, and that's the way I like to do my street. And. But to me, it's. It's so much the way I would do it. I'm not thinking I'm copying someone. That style suits me so much that it really. In my mind, it's my style. [01:39:06] Speaker A: But that's the way to do it. So you can do what they do, but you need to do it in with your eyes the way that you see. Yeah, yeah. And it's perfectly fine. I think Dado Mariama is probably the most copied photographer in the world ever. [01:39:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:39:22] Speaker A: And even some very famous photographers have said that he's been an influence for them. Anders Peterson. The reason Anders Peterson was shooting black and white and in that was he said he was influenced by Daito Mariama. You know, look at William Klein. He's another one. Similar kind of style. He's very imitated, so you can do that. But I mean, for example, it's not copying Dado Moriyama if you use his kind of style, but you're shooting in Melbourne. But if you want to. If you want to even go to the length of shooting in his style, but then Going to Tokyo to do it and then trying to hunt down the places where he's done. And you know what? I. [01:40:11] Speaker D: Yeah, Eggleston found that when he started doing his color, everybody's like, what a waste of time. This is rubbish. Blah, blah, blah, you know, but he did it so well. [01:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but everything that's worth doing, anything that's any good, it'll get some pushback at first because. Yeah, you got to cut through the pushback. What a lot of that pushback is, it's from kind of other narcissistic photographers who, instead of looking at this new thing and saying. Or someone's style and photos and saying, wow, that's not what I do. But geez, that person does that. Well, instead, that narcissism is that bit where they look at it and they go, oh, this person's doing something that I can't do. Ah, that's terrible. It's horrible. Look at Bruce Gilden, for example. Now, I think his best work is the stuff that come out of Haiti. So it's a completely different style to what he's very famous for, but he's very divisive. But if you actually look at what he's done and he's. He's been imitated a lot, but they missed the whole idea of what he's doing. If you actually look at the. He's. He even copied off Mark Cohen. So I think he got influenced by a guy called Mark Cohen, who was the original guy that was doing this very. Getting close in people's personal space flash and. But if he was trying to capture the hustle and bustle and. And how he found the New York streaks at the time, and he did it because it's not even the style or anything like that. But have a look at the feeling you get when you look at his photos. And so these other people try to copy it and then they don't have the same feeling. You can't, you know, Melbourne, for example, Sydney, London, very different to New York. And that New York attitude of. And have a look at the people that he photographed. It's very different. Again, you know, even when he went to do the Black country stuff, which was the book that I bought when I first was looking at his work, which was. That was Face. And so he was doing these very. Almost mug shots. [01:42:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:19] Speaker A: Kind of striking people. You know, there was a particular way. But he. He would get straight on and he'd fill the frame with the head. It was the most interesting thing. Now you have these people trying to in imitate what he's doing by walking past someone, flashing them as they go past. [01:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's very different. There's a quote on his website for Bruce Gilden that says I'm known for taking pictures very close and the older I get, the closer I get. And he does. He feels the frame. He gets in extremely close to some of his subjects, which is quite fascinating. [01:42:57] Speaker A: Yeah. But he, he did that work and then he moved on. It's not a style. Even though people associate it with him, it's not a style. It was two things that he chose at the time on two places and then he moved on. He went and did the. I don't know, he did something in Naples, I think or, or Sicily and then he's gone and followed around. Black bikers in America. Not a work that I think is particularly strong. But you gotta. The guy's 80 something years old so you know, you've got to cut him some slack for that. [01:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Even you look at Kadoka, if you look at what he's doing now, he'd be about that age too. Very different work to what he was first doing. [01:43:35] Speaker D: Yeah. Luckily we're not famous enough to get put pushback. Nobody cares. [01:43:44] Speaker B: Let me just. [01:43:45] Speaker A: Benefits. [01:43:48] Speaker B: Let me just jump to a couple of quick comments. So. Rodney. G', day, Rodney. Afternoon. Afternoon. Geez mate, where are you? Just got in. Looking forward to watching this later tonight. And he also commented with. Loved Jack Little. I don't know who Jack Little is. Sorry. [01:44:07] Speaker A: I don't even know what we're talking about with Jack Little. Did we say, is that a wrestler? [01:44:11] Speaker C: Maybe. [01:44:12] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:44:13] Speaker C: I feel like that was around when we're talking about wrestling. [01:44:15] Speaker B: Yeah, possibly. There's one here from LTK Photo. I went to Washington D.C. in the U.S. i photographed the White House. I'm happy with the photo I took but I know it's a highly photographed building. I try not to think about what other people have done. Yeah. And I think that's a, that's a probably a good lesson I think to extract from that is, you know, by all means be inspired. Seek inspiration. Seek ideas from people that have done it before you and then put all of that out of your mind and, and build your own skill set, you know, whilst taking. Whilst taking photos. [01:44:52] Speaker D: And. [01:44:54] Speaker B: And the final comment from Robert. Maybe I'll come to Australia to photograph the nightlife in Alice Springs. I don't know if, if you, if you're aware what the nightlife would be like in Alice Springs in Australia. [01:45:05] Speaker A: That's actually on my list. So it's. It. No one else can. No one else has done it. There's a reason why no one else has done it. So it takes a person with a certain personality to do it. But I'm telling you through that and you can nail it. Good luck trying to get it published anywhere in Australia with all the wokies in the media, but it'll be a fantastic project. Yeah, it would be. [01:45:26] Speaker B: David. Dear Parker again, if you listen to Gildan talk about his life, you get a real insight into why he shoots the way he does. So certainly something worthwhile Googling a little bit later. [01:45:37] Speaker A: And there's a lot of podcasts where he's done. So. Yeah, David's. He's right. Go and have a listen to a couple of podcasts and you can actually, if you're gonna talk about his work, it helps you to listen to his podcast for sure. [01:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And just for clarity, David and Rodney have said that Jack Little was a famous wrestling commentator. [01:45:59] Speaker A: There you go. Jack Little. [01:46:00] Speaker C: So he was an American born Australian media personality. [01:46:05] Speaker B: There you go. [01:46:06] Speaker A: Jack Little radio. I, I was very WWF centric. So it was Mean Jim Oakland and this kind of thing. Yeah. [01:46:14] Speaker B: And, and what was that one? I still love he'd wear a kilt. Was it Rowdy? Rowdy Piper. [01:46:22] Speaker A: He's Australian. [01:46:24] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:46:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:25] Speaker B: Okay. I wasn't sure. Interesting. Well, look, Dave, I'm a bit conscious of time, but there is a question I have to ask on Justin's behalf because he asks this of, of every podcast guest. So consider yourself. The world is ending. The zombies are marching. What camera lens do you grab to document the end of the world? One camera, one lens only if you had your choice. Say that again, sorry. [01:46:57] Speaker A: Okay, I'm thinking about it. You only get one chance to shoot this. Obviously no one else is going to be shooting it with that length. I like to get close. Yeah, I'm going to get up close to him. [01:47:09] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. [01:47:10] Speaker A: Well, when I photograph them with the. [01:47:11] Speaker B: 21 mil, I fear for your brains because they will be munching on it if you get too close. [01:47:17] Speaker A: You might have to have a shotgun in the other hand. [01:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah, something. Yeah. And, and, and a pair of good trainers to run. Look, I think, I think one thing that's coming through today's conversation with you, Dave, is just that, that genuine approach to understanding humanity and finding ways, meaningful ways and unique ways to document. I call it messiness because I've certainly had my messy periods in life, but life can be messy. And I Think a lot of people avoid, you know, even talking about sometimes about how messy life can be. You know, it's not so long ago that talking about a person's mental health was considered taboo. You know, families held shame over having someone in the family with mental health. And we look at the world we live in today. There's a huge amount of awareness and education around mental well being and mental health issues that affect society. And I think, you know, documenting people where life is, is genuine and it's raw and it's hard and it's messy tells a broader story about humanities, how humanity is struggling with the world we live in today. So on that note, I just wanted to, I guess thank you for joining us today and, and sharing with us your story and your journey and of course your, your influences. There's certainly a couple of names there that, that I've taken down that I want to go back and, and have a closer look at. So I thank you for sharing that knowledge with us. And I think that's, you know, I think that's something that maybe it's not an obligation, but as photographers, you know, we need to, we need to look forward and see can this support people that, that enter photography down the track. You know, you've talked about the people that have influenced you and you've obviously bought a lot of books about those people to understand how they thought and how they worked. And I certainly think there's a lot to take away from that. So once again, thank you so much for your time today for joining us on the Camera Life podcast. And we'll drop, for those of you watching or listening along at home, we're going to drop David's websites and his Instagram page in the notes. Check them out, give him a follow. Yeah, yeah, have a look at the. My, I can't log into my Instagram for, at the moment for some reason but, but yeah, so David, I think, Sorry, I've lost my train of thought. My brain's just running away from me. [01:50:00] Speaker A: Can I ask one question before in the morning, boys? Like, is it, is there a reason you have it so early in the morning or. It's not early. I was up, up at 7, but I mean my brain still doesn't wake up till about 11. [01:50:11] Speaker B: Yeah, no, sorry mate, that's, there's. I don't know if we had a particular reason. I think this sort of just worked for Jim, Justin and I, I think. [01:50:18] Speaker C: So we can catch America as well. [01:50:20] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:50:21] Speaker C: So it's sort of, it's a time that works for Australia and us. [01:50:25] Speaker B: Trying to balance. Yeah, a little bit because we have a lot of listeners in the. And viewers in the U.S. but we appreciate you getting up early and rousing your brain for. For this conversation. Jim, do you want to go through a few. A few farewells before we. Before we close up? [01:50:42] Speaker C: I do. I got one last little question before we get to that, though. [01:50:45] Speaker B: Yeah, go for it. [01:50:46] Speaker C: Is it Dave or David, mate? [01:50:50] Speaker A: It doesn't. Doesn't matter. I actually think it's an indicator of. It's almost like a detective, because you think about it, in Australia we shorten everything. So if your name is David, you don't probably don't mind being called Dave. Some people call you Davo. If you're in one of those clubs and there's four people, someone's got to be a Davey, you know, if you. It's all right to have a preference. But I think in, in Australia, if people insist, like, you know, someone like a Joshua and you call them Josh, they pull you up on it in a real kind of. Almost like a school teacher talking down to a kid and tell you about how. No, it's Joshua then detector in our country. So whatever you want. One of the. One of the guys that runs a wrestling federation, he calls me Steve. So call me whatever you like. [01:51:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad I asked. [01:51:46] Speaker C: That was good. [01:51:47] Speaker B: There's a couple of people I follow. [01:51:49] Speaker D: Greg. Hey. You'll notice we're both Greg. Yeah, we are both Gregory by our mothers. [01:51:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny. Spot on. [01:51:57] Speaker A: Like, it's like you guys dress at the same place and you have the same stylist. [01:52:01] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. We call each other and compare wardrobes every morning. [01:52:07] Speaker C: That's why Greg Carrick had to get white headphones so that we knew that there was a difference between them. It wasn't just the same. [01:52:12] Speaker B: Don't get them mixed up. [01:52:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:52:16] Speaker B: My brother from another mother, it seems. [01:52:20] Speaker C: So. [01:52:21] Speaker A: Sorry, was that the one question you were gonna ask? [01:52:24] Speaker B: I think that was his question, wasn't it, mate? [01:52:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. It was something I was going to chat about earlier, but yeah, I thought it'd be good. [01:52:31] Speaker D: Very deep and meaningful here. Is it Dave or David? [01:52:34] Speaker C: Yeah, and speaking of David, we've got David Dare Parker. He said In Good Company 21, the fave page lens, by the way. [01:52:43] Speaker A: Here you go. I haven't met David de Parker in person. Big fan of his work, though. I've seen it. It's. It's very, very good. And you're doing Pretty good. He's a very. Not only is he a good photographer, but he's very well respected, which I think is more important. But ask him, is he a Dave or a Dave? Dave or David? [01:52:58] Speaker B: Which is it? David Dare Parker. [01:53:00] Speaker A: He might. You might ruin my whole theory on that. [01:53:04] Speaker B: But it is very Australian, isn't it, to. For people to turn your given name into some sort of slang name? You know, there's a couple of Americans, Canadians also, that I follow on social media who are spending time in Australia and, and they do these bits, these reels about how Australians just manipulate words to suit the slang, you know, and, you know, when they start talking about some of our colloquialisms, like, you know, can you pass the dead horse instead of asking for the source? You know, that's. That's just an example. But, but yeah, it is. It is fun. We do have a lot of fun with language down here. [01:53:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:53:45] Speaker B: But look, on that note, I think we're going to wrap for today. Dave, David, Steve, whoever you are, thanks once again for joining us. We really value your time that you've given us today to. To chat and. And learn more about your work and your journey. So I'm gonna. With that note, I'm gonna roll the music. And Jim, do you want to say some farewells? [01:54:07] Speaker A: Yep. [01:54:07] Speaker C: All right. All right. Thank you. [01:54:08] Speaker B: Thanks again, Dave. Great to have you on. [01:54:20] Speaker D: I've got one last thing to say. [01:54:22] Speaker B: Penis. [01:54:28] Speaker C: You've waited all the whole show. [01:54:32] Speaker B: He's. He's held on to that one episode for two hours. Thanks, everybody for joining us. We'll see you on Monday night. [01:54:42] Speaker C: Thanks, Lisa. Thanks, Robert. Thanks, Rodney. Ddp. [01:54:48] Speaker B: Ddp. There you go. All right, guys, we'll see you next time. Bye. [01:54:53] Speaker C: Thank you. Bye.