EP135 | Live Music Photographer Lucas Packett

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Such sorry. Snapping frames chasing light shadows dance day to night lens sharp, soul in sight. [00:00:19] Speaker B: The camera whispers hold it down. [00:00:22] Speaker C: Crank it, boss. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Click, click Moments free time captured in the breeze the camera light, the flash ignite. [00:00:41] Speaker C: It's growing on me. [00:00:43] Speaker B: I mean, it's not the worst AI song that you've ever heard. [00:00:46] Speaker C: Nah, Glenn Lavender's is pretty bad. [00:00:48] Speaker B: He's probably the worst. [00:00:50] Speaker C: It's probably the worst, but. Good morning everybody, and welcome back to the Camera Light Podcast. This is episode 135. It's the 20th of November and it's bright and early here in here in the studio. So we are joined today by a special guest, Lucas Packet, who is predominantly a live music photographer, recommended to us by our good friend, Shane Henderson. Wookie. He's in the chat. G', day, Shane. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Hey, Shane. [00:01:17] Speaker C: But Lucas, Lucas also dabbled. Well, more than dabbles. Dabbles is probably an inappropriate word to use, but he, he shoots a lot of other genres which we're going to unpack as we, as we head down the, down the podcast route. Now, I'm just rambling, I don't know what I'm saying, but. [00:01:33] Speaker A: G'. [00:01:33] Speaker C: Day. G', day, Lucas. [00:01:34] Speaker A: G'. Day. G' Day, guys. How you doing? Good to be here. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker C: Morning, Justin. [00:01:40] Speaker A: How are you? [00:01:41] Speaker B: I'm good. I got my coffee. It's not raining here. Apparently it is. [00:01:46] Speaker C: Has everyone got their beverage? [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:49] Speaker C: Here's cheers to coffee. [00:01:50] Speaker A: I have my Malways cup. [00:01:52] Speaker C: Oh, actually old school. That's close. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Elena actually prepares me two in travel cups because the podcasts are so long. [00:01:58] Speaker C: So we don't have PAs. So good to go. But look, we are going to dive in and, and unravel your entire story. All the dirty goss, all the skeletons. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Wow. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah, it's that sort of podcast. But before we do, Lucas, could you just give us like a brief 60 second version of who you are and what you're known for? [00:02:22] Speaker A: Well, I, I think I classify myself as a documentary photographer. All I want to do is documenting what's happening around us, which I think is probably all photographers, to be honest, but that's what I do. Live music, photo journalism, commercial work, some editorial work and some artistic work for one of a better term. [00:02:41] Speaker C: It's quite greedy of you. It is very greedy with one, at most two genres. So you've got a whole collection going. That's amazing. [00:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:49] Speaker C: Well, look, we are gonna, we are gonna roll back the clock. But before we do, Justin, do you want to say good morning to the good people watching live with us. I do. [00:02:57] Speaker B: I like this one. This is photos by Carl with an F high from tall Carlos Croydon. Does that make Sen Lucas? Is that. [00:03:04] Speaker A: It does from Croydon. He's a good friend of mine. He's my neighbor. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. [00:03:10] Speaker A: And a photographer as well. [00:03:11] Speaker B: And a photographer. Well, thanks. Photos by Carl. Good to have you here. We've got Paul in the chat who says Harrow. Felicity Johnson. Good morning. Thanks for my new Lucky Straps T shirt. Oh, nice. Yeah, I hope you're enjoying it. I'm actually wearing. I'm wearing a cube T shirt this morning. Check this out. We need to get something like this. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Yeah, they're pretty cool. We need a mega pickle T shirt. We need to get a cartoon figure. [00:03:36] Speaker B: With a bit of a graphic. I need to get on to Chris. Our friend Chris. Benny sent us down these T shirts and they are awesome. David Moscaro from San Francisco. Good afternoon. Good evening, whatever it is over there. Rodney Nicholson. Good to see you. Wookie, of course. [00:03:52] Speaker C: Hey, Shane. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Philip Johnson, the one and only. And Lucinda, another live music photographer, Lucinda Goodwin. Hey, gang, what's up? [00:04:02] Speaker C: Hey, kiddo. Good to have you. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:08] Speaker C: Everybody ready to party? We do. We are ready to party. Just before we get started with today's interview, just a reminder that today's podcast is proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps. That's right. Premium handcrafted leather camera straps. And we have a whole range. And is the sale still on, Justin, or is the self. Have we missed the sale? [00:04:27] Speaker B: One hour, 50 minutes and two. One. No, one hour and 50 minutes. [00:04:32] Speaker C: One hour and 50. [00:04:32] Speaker B: One hour, 49. 57. It's just counting down. It will. It will end about the time this podcast ends. The sale will be done. I probably should have thought that through, but you can do two screens. If you're listening to this, you could buy something. It's fine. [00:04:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:48] Speaker B: And otherwise, if you're listening to this in the future and our sales over, you can always save 15 off with code Greg. So that works. Yeah. [00:04:56] Speaker C: Okay. I have my own discount code. I feel very privileged. But yeah, make sure you also like and subscribe. It helps us out a lot. And tickle the bell icon, so that way you get notifications of every upcoming live Camera Life podcast episode. Anyway, enough about that. Let's get the housekeeping out of the way. So, Lucas, thanks for joining us today. We're really keen to unpack your story. You know, as we've mentioned, we've had Shane Henderson on the podcast in the early days of Me Joining the podcast, we've obviously had Lucinda Goodwin with us. Both amazing live music photographers. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Great for. [00:05:33] Speaker B: You know who. You know who we had Greg, who. I don't think he does much of it anymore, but this was before Greg. This was in the b. The BG era of the podcast was a guy called Jay Collier, who was another Melbourne music photographer. And I think in his. Yeah, not so much anymore, but used to. He's, you know, got shots of Metallica and all that sort of stuff. So we've had quite a few. Yeah. Music photographers on that, have done some. Some big things. So it's. It's very exciting. It's always, you know, it's bad. It's like the first thing you do is you go on their website and you look for famous people and you're like, I shouldn't. You should be looking for, like, the best photos. But you kind of like, whoa, they've shot some big people. Yeah. And I did that with you as well, Luc. Like, oh, oh, oh, okay. Wow. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:06:19] Speaker C: Certainly. We certainly will check out your. Your website and your Instagram a little later on. Now, of course, live music isn't your only genre. You, as I mentioned earlier, you also shoot photojournalism. You do a bit documentary work. You're working on a project about motion and image. You do portraits, corporate, you do a whole bunch of stuff. But before we get to those. Those separate genres, I want to find out, where did this all start for you? So when did that. That interest in photography or documenting the world around you, when did that first kind of come to life? [00:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I was thinking about this before I came on, and my earliest memory is when I put. I bought my first camera, which was Hannom X110. You know, those little. Yeah. [00:07:05] Speaker C: My nan gave me one. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. Well, I think my grandfather was involved because he was a keen photographer. Photographer. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:11] Speaker A: I went down to the local toy store, I think it was. And either he bought it or I bought it. I can't remember. But it was a red Hannom X110 camera. Yeah, the. You know, the long one. And I have the cartridge. 110 films. Yeah, the neg's about as big as your thumbnail. And I still have it. I still. It sits on my. My other studio wall and that's awesome. It's. Yeah, I. I haven't used it for a long, long time, but that's. I think. I can't remember what inspired me to buy that, but I remember getting it and Just going, yep. And fell in love with photography. I remember from that point on and it's been one of the constants throughout my life has been, has been photography and the love of the still image. And always had a camera with me. You know, obviously that was back in the film days because I'm an old guy and I grew up as a teenager. All my mates were skateboarders and I tried to skateboard but I wasn't very good at it. But I, So I took photos and, and I graduated to a, another little Kodak point and shoot, a little, A blue, which I still have as well, a blue Kodak 35 millimeter point and shoot, built in flash, all that sort of stuff, all plastic everything, plastic lens, plastic body, plastic everything. And started photographing them skateboarding. And then you. Those were the days sort of in the 80s when you'd have famous skateboarders just come from America or from Europe and just visit and do this. I don't know, they just came. I don't know what they were doing, but they were great. They were good. And there'd be heaps of people and you'd go down to the local half pipe and you'd photograph. I would photograph them. And no one, back in the day when no one really worried too much about photographers or not that I can remember anyway, and then capturing those images and just going, oh, actually I like doing this. I think I've got some okay images. Everyone seemed to like them and you know, people were asking for, for shots and enlargements, just your friends and that sort of thing. And it really grew from there. And I grew up in the country, so there was limited resources. There was one place in town that would process the film and you know, you have to save up for a while and get it processed, all that sort of stuff. And then I, I learned, learned how to take a photograph and learned how to compose stuff, I think, which was really, really important. And that was just. And became an instinctual thing, I think, just learning how to compose stuff. And then other people would take a photo and they'd be real and, and they'd go, oh, how do you do that? And I'm going, I don't know, I just. You just do it, you know, it was an instinctual thing. I'm a really bad teacher because of that fact, you know, because, you know, someone asks you how you do it and I go, well, you just. So trying to teach it is hard. I, I graduated high school, went on to university at Monash University and thought, okay, what am I going to do here? So you do an arts course when you don't know what you're going to do. [00:10:13] Speaker B: And. [00:10:16] Speaker A: That was all I was really good at anyway. I wasn't good at academics or any of that sort of stuff. Was always the art classes, graphics classes, woodwork classes. Went into Monash University there and majored in photography there. And that was a really pivotal time for me just learning, learning the craft there. Had a really fantastic lecturer there called Susan Purdy who was. Who still is an awesome photographer and she did a lot of stuff that was out of focus for one of a better term, which seems like a really strange thing to come and talk about on the camera podcast. And I was fascinated by that. [00:10:55] Speaker C: And it's okay, most of Justin's shots are out of focus. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Hey, you're the fousey film shooter. [00:11:00] Speaker C: Hey. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Hey. [00:11:04] Speaker C: Sorry, what was that, what was that your lecturer's name that you talked about? Susan. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Susan Purdy. Yeah, she's. She's a great photography. She exhibits semi regularly here and around town and around the city and state. So she was really influential in, in that end of things. So I took a lot from what she did. So she would. Taught us a lot about just the mechanics of, of cameras that I guess the tech side but more the compositional side there as well. Just really pushing us into our own imagery. Learning how to use the dark room well, you know, a lost art I guess these days as well. And yeah, that was a really, that was a real eye opener and just that whole thing of going and shooting a roll of film, not knowing if you'd got anything at all or anything decent. Then came back and just going into the dark room and processing and seeing the stuff appear before your eyes and. [00:12:04] Speaker C: Sorry Lucas. That end to end process is so unique. Yeah. Like you, I, I studied. I went to an art college after I finished high school to do like a folio preparation and photography was my favorite subject. We did everything. We did ceramics and yes, illustration, all that sort of stuff. But photography was where myself and my friend really, really dove into it and that whole end to end process is such a different experience from, you know, even loading your own film canister. Yeah, get out shooting. Not like you said, not knowing, but you've applying your skills and your learned knowledge to make sure that you get the best shot you possibly can. And then there's that whole unknown that you've got to wait until you get back to the. Yeah, you know, school's got to open again on Monday. You've got to go in, but you don't have, you know, I'm in the dark room until that afternoon. It's just that whole. There's almost like an excitable energy behind developing film, behind shooting film that like you said, I think it is a bit of a dying art. And you know, we've got some friends who still shoot a lot of films. Every now and then Justin shoots film. But actually this morning I was looking at Joel, Joel Elston's collection from the recent Bright Festival. He shoots film. He was doing a little Bruce Gilden style work with the flash. He even ran a workshop about it. And so you just. And I'll be hanging out at the festival in the middle, you know, late at night and someone come up and shove a camera, a camera and a flash in our face and you kind of get your sight back. They're gone. But. But yeah, it's a, It's a very different approach to what most people see the craft as being digital. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, it's. And that was all, that's all we had anyway. So you kind of. We didn't know any different at that point. And. But it was such a. Such a cathartic process and I loved. Yeah. Getting in on the Monday morning after shooting on the weekend and coming in and just going, yeah, what have I got? And sometimes being bitterly disappointed and sometimes thinking, oh, actually that one shot is. That's the one. That's one I'll print up and I'll do something with. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was a really good, good journey. Yeah. [00:14:10] Speaker C: And it's interesting, we often speak to people who, especially who started in film, but even those who didn't, who were more recent than us, younger, I should say that they can identify like an influential person, whether it be a family member, a teacher, a mentor of some sort that really inspired them to make the most of the craft. And I love the fact that there are still people out there that are doing that. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:39] Speaker C: Influencing others to be better, to learn more, to Absolutely. Find new ways to get out and hunt that light. So. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that was really influential. And you can, you know, and probably the same as you guys, you can pinpoint people throughout your life that have been those influential people in. In everything. But if it, you know, in photography. But definitely there's been been a bunch of them. But that was one of the, the most early, earliest. Although I did have an experience in a dark room in primary school. I remember we were doing something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if it Was a, that's cool. We were doing like a dissection or something, and I, I ended up just turning a wider shade of pale and the teacher's looking at me and going, oh, that's not good. And so I ended up in a dark room with another teacher. Probably stuff you can't. Probably stuff you can't do these days. But I ended up in a dark room with another teacher, and he's going, I'll show you how to develop a roll of film. I think they just wanted to get me out of the classroom before I fell on the floor. [00:15:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:38] Speaker A: And that was actually, I just remembered that then as we're talking about it, I can't even remember who that particular teacher was, but I remember going, wow, what is this? What is this art that you're showing me here? And. Yeah. In the dark and rolling a film onto a canister and cutting the end and yeah. You know, why are you doing in the dark? You can't see. Yeah, all that sort of stuff. [00:16:00] Speaker C: So can I ask you a question, if someone sent you today? Firstly, do you still shoot film? [00:16:06] Speaker A: Occasionally? I do, yeah. [00:16:08] Speaker C: And do you develop your own or do you send them off to a lab? [00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, depends on what it is. Black and white I'll do at home, and color I'll send off. And then also just Polaroid. Polaroid stuff. I guess you classify that as film, so. Yeah, but yeah, 35 mil film and usually some 120 on some various cameras I got at home. [00:16:28] Speaker C: So it's just interesting because I, I, I haven't developed or touched. I mean, I've shot with some film, but I have sent it off to labs and all that sort of thing. But, you know, I, I don't know that I, I'm fairly confident I wouldn't know what to do in a dark room anymore. You know, I feel like it's a skill that I lost because I didn't know it. I didn't keep it up at any point. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:48] Speaker C: And I have regrets about that. It's interesting when you sort of look back on that some go. I wish I'd stuck with film photography, even just as a side gig like what you're doing or. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think, I think you'd be surprised. I think it's a little bit of a muscle memory there with, with film development as well. Yeah, that's right. You have to agitate for 30 seconds and. That's right. And you know, blah, blah, blah. It's, it's all become incredibly expensive, though, these days, as well, to do film. So that's the other challenge. And everyone wants stuff instantly as well. So yeah, there's multiple challenges on that. So it depends on the arena you're working in. For me anyway, so most of the stuff I'm doing on film is just for myself. Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Got a couple of film fiends in the chat right now. David Mascara, he shoots a fair bit of film rocking around San Francisco streets. And the drunk wedding photographer is near LA in California and shoots all film, wedding photography, which is pretty cool. And I'm sure because of that knows. That knows the pain of the cost of processing. I'm sure thanks to the time change I can watch the stream live. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, because the daylight savings. So it would have. Yeah, it would have changed a fair bit for your local time. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:56] Speaker B: But yeah, it's. It's very cool to see people still making sort of bodies of work or even like photography businesses out of film is pretty impressive. I don't know how people do that. [00:18:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. And you know, you need. I guess you need some kind of budget there as well. I did one shoot on Polaroid just recently for. For an artist and he was wanting a 70s California summer California vibe. You know, the palm trees, sort of that warm light. Yeah. And you know, we both live in Melbourne. I'm going okay, well that's a good challenge. So we went down to St. Kilda and found some palm trees and it was in the middle of summer. We. We managed to do it and we shot that almost predominantly on. On Polaroid. So that was fun. That was fun. But yeah, not particularly cheap. [00:18:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Just quickly, just a comment from friend of the show, Simon Pollock. Can you guys do sign? I'm on a work call but watching at the same time. Haha. Can we all please just give Simon Pollock the bird? Everyone at home, give him the bird. It's the ult. Go on. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Sorry. Sorry Simon. Hopefully you saw that. [00:18:59] Speaker C: Enjoy your word sign language. We know. I think this is. Hello. I think that's about it. I used to know a lot more. [00:19:06] Speaker B: I wonder if YouTube will do something for us for that. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Kick us off. [00:19:11] Speaker B: So what happened after. What happened after studying? Like what did you do after that? Did you have to go and get a real job or like what was. What was like? [00:19:21] Speaker A: I did. Moved. That was. I did all the studying in the country. Monash Town in. In Churchill in country regional Victoria and moved to the city and moved to Melbourne after that. Ended up working in a record store for a number of Years and then ended up working in a. In a camera store. I got my first job in a camera store then. And that was, that was good. Was actually fun looking back and just going, oh, yeah, that was, you know, a whole lot of resources that were available and around other, you know, other photographers that couldn't get work and everyone's ended up in the camera store. And it was, it was good. And you get lots of photographers coming in. That was sort of in the 90s, I guess paralleling that was then taking my camera to music venues and just photographing. And you could then as well, you know, you could just walk up to anywhere and take your camera and photograph. No one really cared at all. [00:20:19] Speaker B: From memory now you can't even take your camera into a shopping center in Melbourne and take a photo because it's. But you can, your phone's fine, iPhone, no problem. That's it. You can make a tick tock in there. But God forbid you walk through there with your Leica Q3 and you're trying to check some of the settings and you take a photo on. The security guard walks up to you and says, excuse me, you cannot do that here. Yeah, it was so weird. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I was shooting a show last night and as a festival hall and just to get in, I was taking my, my bag in the. And the security said, no, you can't take that backpack in. It's too big. And I said, well, I need to. It's got my gear in. It's going, you can't take it in. And I go, well, I'm actually working here tonight. And anyway, eventually got in, but back in the day, you could, you could, you could do that. Yeah, I remember going to things like the big day out and taking a 35 mil camera. There was film then as well, and you know, with a big long zoom lens and just shooting all day long, you get up to the front of the barrier. You know, we didn't have backstage passes or anything, but you just shot and it was fun and you could. There was zero restrictions and no one, no one cared. It was great. You know, and all the venues around town here, you could, you could do that. And you know, even, you know, going to the bigger venues like the Forum, I remember shooting in the Forum in the, in those days and no one kid. Anyway, at some point that changed. [00:21:42] Speaker B: Why do you think that changed? Like, what forces were at work? Is it. Is it bands struggling to make ends meet because of, you know, declining royalties and things like that? So they were clinging on to Everything where they're like, hey, that's our image. We need to, you know, we need to make sure people aren't making money selling our imagery without us getting a cut or whatever. [00:22:05] Speaker C: Like, what. [00:22:05] Speaker B: What do you think it was? [00:22:07] Speaker A: That's a real. That's a really good question. I often think about that and wonder that as well. And I think that's tied up with the whole. You know, as music photographers, you're only granted a little bit of time to shoot bands, usually the first three songs, unless you're working with the band or you. So I think it's tied up into. I think it's tied up into money, definitely. I think. I. I don't know, to be honest. I believe the first three song thing was tied up with. I think Chrissy Amphlett was one of the ones that instigated that. I believe. So the rumor goes. I don't know if that's true or not, you know, because she would go, I look better in the first three songs at the start of the set. And I do it the last three songs. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's only a rumor. That's only. We're trying to work out why this. I think it's tied up in. In those sorts of things as well and being a little bit precious and, you know, as we age, you know, people don't want photographers in their faces often. Yeah, unfortunately. So. Oh yeah, it's a really good question. I'd be. I'd be interested to see what your. Your thoughts. Are you guys thoughts on that or anyone's listening as well, because it's really interesting. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Well, that's the only thing that popped into my head whether it was, yeah, like a control thing in terms of shortage. They were struggling to lose to. To keep control of their recorded music. And it was like. And. And obviously the proliferation of digital cameras and stuff. They're probably like, God, you know, every. Every man, his dog's got a camera at our show. Yeah, we don't want this anymore. Well, let's. We need to like, cut this off. Because like, say when. When you were back in the day, maybe two people brought. Three people brought film cameras to a show. It was like, it's no big deal. [00:23:45] Speaker A: It's like. [00:23:46] Speaker B: And then what happens to the photos? No one really knows. Whereas maybe it was the visibility too. It's like they see them pop up on social media and they're like, hang on a minute, we got to put a stop to this. Whereas no. 1. The. The other photos weren't going worldwide. They Might get seen locally in a magazine or you know, a zine or something. But it wasn't like the band wasn't getting exposed to these photos. Getting taken by a non, a non sanctioned photographer. I don't know. [00:24:12] Speaker C: Yeah, marketing. I reckon it's pure marketing control. You know, it's. Let's regulate it. Let's put, let's put some barriers around it so that we control what goes out. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think control, control and money is. It always comes down to things. Yeah. She'd have a great perspective as well. Yeah, yeah. [00:24:32] Speaker B: I think it's about abuse of power. Can't regulate punters using flash, etc for the entire set. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I was guilty of that back in the day. I remember having point and shoots at the front row. Bang, bang being flashing. It would have been so. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:46] Speaker A: But you know, you don't, as a young kid, you don't really think about it too much and go, okay, yeah. If you put yourself on the other side. Yeah, yeah. [00:24:53] Speaker B: And also it's like, hey, you've got stage lights and your band's like, dude, it's kind of part of the, it's kind of part of the gig. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:25:03] Speaker B: The flash hurts my eyes. Okay. Yeah, but you're a metal band. Calm down. Yeah. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. And then, you know, you fast forward and you know, we just had a well known American Americana artist on our shores who, who won't allow any flash photography of any form. Phones, definitely not professional cameras because it triggers a condition that he has and he'll walk off stage if it, if it happens. It's a flash. Yeah, I've been at those shows. Yeah. [00:25:34] Speaker B: And also I guess the other thing too is like. Yeah, it's one thing if it's, if it's Parkway Drive, a couple of flashes in the front row aren't going to make much difference. [00:25:41] Speaker A: You're not going to know. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah, but if, but if it's a solo acoustic, absolutely, you know, performer and it's just constant like bang, bang, bang, bang. Like it could ruin the show for everybody. So there's certainly. Lucinda says, oh yes. And he did crack the shits. Interesting comment from David mascara in the U.S. he says here you can take a 200 to 500 mil lens into a major league baseball game, but not into football or basketball games. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Really. [00:26:12] Speaker B: It's interesting. Baseball must be just. It's still got that old school vibe, does it? Where they just don't care too much. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah, fascinating. [00:26:21] Speaker B: Maybe that Is very interesting because I would have thought they'd have. Have it all locked down. It's so locked down over there now you have to wear a bloody. And I think it's coming in here. You have to have a stupid little plastic backpack. You can't even take a bag. Your bag has to be see through to go into a lot of the venues over there. Oh really? You can't have a back. If your backpack is black. You might have stuff hiding in it. So you have to wear like a little. Like a little kids clear backpack with this stuff in it walking around all day. It's. [00:26:51] Speaker C: It's. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Anyway, it's interesting. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:55] Speaker C: Crazy. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:56] Speaker C: I've got a couple of questions about your involvement with the music industry. And I guess my first question for you is, you know, do you remember your first concert? What was the first concert you went to and what was that experience and did you take a camera with you for that first concert? [00:27:09] Speaker A: The first concert I. I guess I technically went to. We actually couldn't get in. But this was. We went to, my brother and I, we had a V8, Holden Knob, Kingswood and Nice. I grew up in country Victoria and Susie Quattro was in town. She was playing at the local Memorial hall and we couldn't get in. But we drove the Kingswood up against the side of the thing and stood on the roof, tried to peer in through the window and wow. We heard her. We heard her warming up out backstage somewhere in the toilet or something and was fascinated. So I think. Guess that's kind of technically one of the first concerts. [00:27:47] Speaker C: That's a great story. [00:27:50] Speaker A: So I can't tell you anymore about that because I don't think we saw much more than that. And we kind of saw bits through the cracks in the windows and that was about it. Didn't have a lot of stuff coming into town, but yeah, that was probably one of the earliest ones I can remember. We were only teenagers then and probably didn't even have licenses, so probably shouldn't have been driving. But no one cared back then. [00:28:09] Speaker C: Lucinda's just said that's the. That's about the most regional town story ever. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I can. I can picture that scene in my head. Yeah, that's the only scene out of an. Out of an Australian movie, you know. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh well, it was very Aussie and you know, we loved every second of it. But you occasionally get touring bands coming through town and was so good, didn't matter who it was. So that's why all those things that. That sort of things like Triple J have done later on where they did all those regional tours with bands and stuff have been really important for. For kids and anyone in. In parts of town. But that was good. I think. I think one of the other ones after that was Choir Boys. They played at one of the local pubs in town. And I remember that being insanely loud again with my brother and I when we went and stood up front. Yeah, this sounds good. And then just having our hair parted by the sound and it was so incredibly loud, you know. But it was good. That was good. So we just love music and just whatever was coming through town would go and see and then. Yeah, so that's one of the earliest. Couple of the earliest, yeah. [00:29:10] Speaker C: And do you recall the concert you first took a camera to? [00:29:15] Speaker A: Yeah, there was a few. Some of the earliest ones when I was really into. Into metal when I was a teenager. Still do like metal a lot, but I was into as a teenager. There was a band from the States called Striper who were. Who were huge and they played at Festival Hall. And I had my little 110 camera that I mentioned before, my little red Hannah Max 110 camera. And I remember taking that in and standing right up against the stage and getting photos of the drummer from sort of side on at Festival hall there. So that was one of the earliest memories, I think, of taking things. And then I think I snuck a camera into BB King when he came out. So our blues guitarist from the States departed, you know. Great. And that was sort of off the back of him joining forces with you two. And when they did the sort of Love Comes To Town. That's Right track. And that was all. That was all. Yeah, he's been. He'd been playing for decades and was a legend, but fairly unknown. You two did. They did that pairing of Love Comes to Town. So he was doing solo tours. I snuck a. A huge big lens into that. That was at the. The Glass House, which is now the. Across from Rod labor there, which is now the Collingwood Football Club's headquarters. But that was. That was a music venue once upon a time. [00:30:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it was, yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And saw him there and that was. That was a really good show. That was. He was fantastic. So I. I should try and dig those shots up. But I think they were very good. [00:30:44] Speaker C: But it doesn't matter. [00:30:48] Speaker A: It does. And there was a great show. So. Yeah. [00:30:50] Speaker C: Justin, do you remember your first concert? Obviously it wasn't the Wiggles. [00:30:56] Speaker B: Like, big concert. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker C: Like proper. Proper name. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Proper concert. Because we used to like. We used to obviously we used to play in bands and organize gigs and stuff in Bendigo and I think. And like before that, we. I went to a few sort of small, like, Battle of the Bands and things like that around town. I'm just trying to think what the first big one was. Oh, I don't even remember. I've got to tell you my memory. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:21] Speaker C: Go Aerosmith. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Wow. [00:31:24] Speaker C: What your first one, first concept was Aerosmith. [00:31:28] Speaker B: It's all downhill from there. Yeah, I know. [00:31:31] Speaker C: I got to see Guns and Roses at Quarter park when they had that at the Thunderdome. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, remember that? [00:31:37] Speaker C: That day. And it was like 40 degrees and it poured with rain and it turned the whole. Because it was set up in, like, pit lane. Not pit lane, the drag strip. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Yep. [00:31:46] Speaker C: And so the berm around the drag strip that was there for noise suppression became where everyone stood or sat. And you watched Guns N' Roses. And I can't remember who else was at that. It was massive mad. And because it rained and it was so hot, like the security were just hurling bottles of water into the crowd and it was just. It just became a mud pit. It was. That was impressive. But, yeah, Aerosmith. Steve Tyler, he was like an athlete. He just didn't stop moving. [00:32:11] Speaker A: Where was that? [00:32:13] Speaker C: Oh, gosh, it might have been first. Yeah, it was in Melbourne. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was in Melbourne. [00:32:18] Speaker A: Probably Festival Hall. [00:32:19] Speaker C: Probably Festival Hall, Yeah. [00:32:21] Speaker A: My music bowl or somewhere like that. [00:32:22] Speaker C: No, well. Oh, maybe if it was indoor anyway. Yeah. But yeah, it was an amazing concert. Really cool. Loving an elevator. That kind of. That kind of era. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:36] Speaker C: Avery Smith. Yeah. [00:32:37] Speaker A: So 90s sort of era. [00:32:38] Speaker C: Yeah, the 90s. Yeah. [00:32:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Wow. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Right? [00:32:41] Speaker A: The. Yeah. If I can name drop for one second, please do. I have two kids and we were in the States and their. Their first concert was Aretha Franklin. So we saw her only less than a year before she passed away in New York City. We were there. It cost a small fortune to go and see, but let's go do it. We had the kids and we couldn't leave them, so they thought, okay, they'll come with us. And so now they. They're quite happy to brag about that being their first. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:12] Speaker A: Really good show. It was in the round in. In. Just in Queens and it was. Was so good. She was unwell and she was old, but she. Man, her voice just. Yeah, she came out. She had a big, long leopard skin jacket on and she just commanded attention and did all the hits and was awesome. Yeah, wasn't that very cool? [00:33:36] Speaker C: Just a Couple of comments from the chat. Wookiee's confirmed for me that Skid Row and Rose Tattoo were there. Yes, they were. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Yes. The Tats, of course, the Tats would have been there. That. That's a good lineup. [00:33:46] Speaker C: Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was pretty impressive. And then, of course, to finish with Guns N Roses, like, that was massive because it was during that time, it was when they brought out that album, there was a blue version and a red version. [00:33:57] Speaker A: Is your illusion. [00:33:58] Speaker C: Yeah, it was that period. Yeah. It was crazy. And yes, Lucinda said I was born in the wrong era. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker C: Felicity Johnson first concert was Adam and. Oh, that's cool. So old school. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Ant Music. Yeah. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Yep. [00:34:16] Speaker A: That would have been real. [00:34:18] Speaker C: That was pretty cool. [00:34:19] Speaker B: I'm. I'm annoyed now. I can't think of who I. Yeah, it's. It's just a full blank. [00:34:24] Speaker A: It's. [00:34:24] Speaker B: You need to find a friend to who it was. [00:34:26] Speaker C: You need to get your PA to investigate. [00:34:27] Speaker B: No. One of them. I. I do know a friend that I could probably call right now and he would. He would figure out within five minutes what the first one I went to was. He's. You know, he's got a memory for that stuff. But, yeah, we went. You know, my. My big regret is I never went to Big Day Out. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:42] Speaker B: I always. Because that was sort of like the era when I was younger, and I was always like, I'll get there one year. But I would always think about, like, oh, you're probably better off going to the side shows anyway. You know, if you. If you really like a band, you go and see them at their own show. But now looking back, I'm like, I should have just gone to every single one of those. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's right. We're all in the same boat there. It was. It was such an iconic time. And I know, you know, I don't want to be another old guy just reminiscing about the. The good old days, but there hasn't been much like it since. And there's been. There's been a few things that have been kind of a little bit similar, but it was. It was such a good event. And, you know, at the Melbourne showgrounds there, and, you know, it was a touring show and I actually have a book, which I. I don't have it here, but it was by the. The touring photographer whose name. I can't forget her name. She would. She toured with the Big Day out for years and she created a book, and it was. It was such a good time, you know, oh, wow. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a cool. [00:35:38] Speaker C: Yeah, that'd be epic. [00:35:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to see that. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:41] Speaker B: There's some funny comments in the chat. David Mascara says the 70s was the greatest and Robert Varner says, I'm in my 70s. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:50] Speaker C: Robert was watching the Beatles, I'm sure. Hanging out. Classics. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Level 42 at Wembley Stadium. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Level 42. Wow. There you go. [00:36:02] Speaker C: Unless it was definitely. Sorry. [00:36:05] Speaker B: No, you're right. The Wiggles. [00:36:07] Speaker C: But which version of the Wiggles, was it the OG Wiggles or was it, you know, the woke version? That's terrible thing to say. [00:36:15] Speaker B: Well, the, the new, not improved version. Rodney Nicholson says Eagles doobies Santana for 6.50. That's ridiculous. [00:36:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's crazy. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You got ripped off, Rodney. That's way too much to spend on those tickets. That's insane. Oh, dear. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Okay. [00:36:33] Speaker B: It's going crazy. OG OG Wiggles. [00:36:36] Speaker A: We were. I took the kids to see Oasis when they were in town last month and that. I did have to sell a kidney to go to that show, but I was reminiscing on again. I'll pull out my ticket stub for when I saw them last. And it was at the Forum here in Melbourne and it was, I think it was $60 and which was a lot at the, at that time. That was in the early 2000s and, you know, compared to now was hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. [00:37:05] Speaker C: I think the greatest show I ever went to was Midnight Oil and it was an open air venue. I can't remember where it was, but it was open air. And I remember that the tickets were like only 20 bucks. And it was at a time when, like you said, tickets were up around the 60, 80. They were creeping to 100. And it was the greatest concert. Peter Garrett's energy was just so infectious and they. I just played banger after banger after banger. It was great. [00:37:30] Speaker A: I could talk about Midnight off. I know I was saying I probably don't have enough things to talk about, but I could talk about me. Not all for the next two hours as well, if you wanted, which we weren't, but. Absolutely, absolutely. I have been fortunate enough to photograph them a bunch of times and yeah, good memories of going to see them back in the day as well. We, I, I did go and see them at the old palace, which was next to the Palais in St. Kilda. I don't know if you guys remember that it burned down suspiciously in the. A number of years ago now and the Oils played there and I Remember having shirts off, Things you wouldn't do now. Shirts off. And my. So. And take. My socks and jeans were just dripping with sweat by the end of the show. And it was so much fun. It was so much fun. So, yeah, nice. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Those were the days. [00:38:23] Speaker C: Yeah. Now, obviously, we're a photography podcast, so let me pose some photography questions to you. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do that. [00:38:32] Speaker C: For a music podcast. But what, what's been the most technically challenging concept for you to shoot, do you think? [00:38:39] Speaker B: And why? [00:38:41] Speaker A: A lot of them. Because there's, as any music photography will tell you, they're, they're, they're a challenge for a whole lot of reasons. And every concert is different. Sometimes some venues are a little bit similar, but it's the, you know, the things you. The obvious things like changing light conditions, a moving target, sometimes other factors to deal with, good punters behind you, depending on if there's a photo pit for you to shoot in or not. You know, various projectiles flying, you know, people crowd surfing above your head, all that sort of stuff. And, and then if you've only got restricted, excuse me, restricted amount of time to get, you know, 20 or 30, 40, 50 shots within only a few songs. Getting good shots is. Is the challenge. Nailing, nailing everything and doing that is, is the time, is the challenge. The most probably one that comes to mind was I was photographing the Lime Spiders. They're a great band from the 80s Australian band, and they were playing at the Croxton here in, in Melbourne. They didn't, they didn't fill the big room, so they got moved to sort of a front bar and at the last minute, and the, the lead singer was unhappy with the lighting in there, so he kept asking for the lights to be kind of turned down and turned down and they kept going. And then he just got so annoyed with them, he goes, just turn the lights off. So he performed in the dark. [00:40:17] Speaker C: What? [00:40:18] Speaker A: Wow. And it was, it was literally in the dark. And he just, he got so annoyed. So that was a challenge to shoot that. I don't think I got much out of that one. I know one of the other photographers that was there pulled his flash out and started taking photos. And he was a brave man because. Yeah, Mick Blood, who, Who fronts the Lime Spiders, is. He's a tough dude. He's a tough dude. So I don't know if I'd. [00:40:40] Speaker B: He's. He's tough, but he couldn't handle the front, the house lights. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Yeah, not that tough. [00:40:46] Speaker A: Yeah, that's Right. I wasn't going to find out. Put it that way. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Give him some sunglasses. [00:40:52] Speaker A: So that was a challenge. That was a challenge to shoot that. But I think every show. Every show is a challenge. And there often. I love the challenge to do that because sometimes it's presented differently and, you know, different bands present different challenges as well. Paul Kelly at the My Music bowl, he was doing his Make Gravy, how to Make Gravy Christmas shows. He was doing a runoff for a while there. And. And the. My Music bowl, the big amphitheater. So it has, you know, it's a big amphitheater, sloping on the hill. It bucketed down with rain there just before he came on. And the rain all just came down the. The. Under the seats there, sort of all paved. And the water filled up in the photo pit. And the water kept coming up and up and up, and it got up to. I kept. I stood back onto the front row, and then, you know, the seats were, you know, half a meter off the ground. And then it came up to those seats and went to the next row, came up to those seats and just kept thinking it got to about a meter and a half deep, at least. And all the speakers were on the ground. Like, all the sub subs were on the ground, and they all floated and then just fell over into the water. There's all these power cables and audio cables. There's no way I'm gonna get into that water or. And, yeah, the show stopped, and I thought that was going to be the end of it, but they kept going. They kept going. They pulled the speakers out. Some brave souls got in there and put him out. And then Paul Kelly came on. It wasn't during. He was just before he started, and it came on and he played a set. So that was a challenge to shoot that one as well. So. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah, although the. The photo. Oh, I'd love to see photos of. Of the chaos. Not. Yeah, like, the speakers and the. [00:42:39] Speaker A: And it was crazy. It was crazy. [00:42:42] Speaker B: Lucinda says I was at that show as a punt. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Oh, really? Really? [00:42:45] Speaker B: Speakers. The speaker stacks were floating in the pit. [00:42:48] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:42:48] Speaker B: They were on the grass with my sister because her friend bowed. That's probably a safe place to be. Listen, I think that's a good. [00:42:55] Speaker C: Although it could be on the grass. [00:42:59] Speaker B: She was on the. Okay, yeah, I get it. Never mind. [00:43:01] Speaker C: We know what you're up to, Lucinda. [00:43:04] Speaker B: I remembered. I think I remembered what my first concert was. My first proper concert. I've been thinking. It's been processing in My brain, it just takes a while. It's like an old hard drive. Takes a while to boot up, to go deep into the archives. But I think it was actually. I think my dad took me to see Eric Clapton because I was. I was playing guitar and stuff like that. And I always enjoyed listening to Eric Clapton, obviously. So he. And that was when I learned what a. Because I was. I think I was starting to play in a band already and there was always. Was always talk about like tightening up, you know, tightening up the song and having a tight rhythm section. Rhythm section being generally bass and drums for a rock band. And that show is when I learned what an actual tight rhythm section was. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Because it was perfect, but with so much punch and vibe all night. The entire like, I think it was a two hour show or something insane like that. And you know what? These session musos that play with someone like Eric Clapton alike, just the best of the best. Yeah, it blew my mind. I thought I was there to see guitar and I learned what a band, like what a band could do. Yeah. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Can you remember where that was at? [00:44:18] Speaker B: I can't remember. No, I'm trying to. It'll give me another hour. [00:44:22] Speaker C: It might pop up once you do frags. [00:44:26] Speaker B: Because I was trying to work out like how old was I and stuff, but it's just. Yeah, it's all a blur. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Wow. [00:44:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:44:35] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:44:35] Speaker C: Sorry, Jay. Oh, speaking of David dear. Parker's has joined the. Joined the fray was not my first, but Queens A Night at the Opera tour was highlight. Seeing Queen live, that would have been amazing. Also Clapton's 461 Ocean Boulevard tour and George Benson's Breezen Breezen tour are both up there. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. [00:44:57] Speaker C: Amazing performances, I'm sure. [00:44:59] Speaker B: Wow. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:00] Speaker B: Awesome. Gosh. [00:45:02] Speaker C: Yeah. People have seen some crazy stuff in the chat, that's for sure. [00:45:06] Speaker B: You can see. And so is this why everyone loves bands, right? Everyone loves going to live shows. Not everyone, but most people. Is this why it became so difficult to make a living as a photographer, shooting live shows? Because who wouldn't want to be front row for any of these, you know, bands that have popped up. And if you can do that and then you start making that trade off where you're like, oh, well, it doesn't. It's not really going to pay my bills. But gosh, I'd love to see that band. Is that the negative spiral that makes it really hard to make a living in that industry? [00:45:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it can be. It can be. I think these days everyone has a camera as well, so there's, there's photos everywhere and. Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a really good question. I don't know. But yeah, it is hard to make a living as a music photographer and I know Lucinda would attest to that and, and Shane and you know, there's other ways you need to kind of make money. You can do it and there are, there are, there are probably only a few full time music photographers in Melbourne. Correct me if I'm wrong but I. That make a full time living out of it. So it's a challenge. It's a challenge. But yeah, everyone has a camera these days and you're getting access is a challenge. Yeah. [00:46:25] Speaker B: Are you one of those people that make a full time living? Is it your thing? [00:46:30] Speaker A: I, I do make a full time living out of photography, not out of music photography alone. [00:46:34] Speaker C: Okay, that's what I was going to say. I think you know, like Lucinda often does, you know, works with bands and does. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:43] Speaker C: You know, and portraits and green room stuff and. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot to it than just showing up at a live concert. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Oh absolutely, yeah. The live shows. There's not really much in that financially at least from my end. The promo stuff and being connected via labels and management is, is, is, is great. Also a lot of video work. Video work's probably a bit more profitable than photographic work. I do a bunch of video work as well. So yeah, that's, that helps. [00:47:12] Speaker B: What sort of video? Like what, what does that look like? What's a video job for you? [00:47:17] Speaker A: They're all different. I don't, I do some music stuff but a lot of the stuff I work with a not for profit and we do a lot of work around the world so I get to travel with them really. Fortunately just doing interviews, telling stories, people's stories from all, all sorts of parts. So that, that is, that is really good. That pays the, that pays the bills amongst other stuff and some music stuff in there as well. So some live stuff. But yeah, yeah, it's, it's hard and yeah. [00:47:49] Speaker C: Starting to take on video. Was that, was that something that you had previously said? Oh, I'm not going to do video, I don't. I'm just a stills photographer. But you know, the needs must. You had to expand the streams of income for yourself or was it. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it actually came up through. I was offered a job as a video editor a number of years ago and I'm going, I actually don't know how to do that. Why are you offering me this job? And I was actually working as an audio engineer and as well as a photographer and in a photography store. And they go, we just think you could be good at this. I go, okay. So I gave it a shot and really enjoyed it and learned a lot. Steep learning curve. Lots of crossover, though, with video cameras. I remember having a video camera and we had a small one, this company that I began working for. And I remember, you know, with a stills camera, you shoot landscape and you shoot portrait. I did that with the video camera. I started shooting it. Portrait. And I took it back in and the guy's going, why have you turned the camera on its side? So everything was on its side. It was just. It was just dumb. I don't know why I was doing that. I was so green. [00:48:58] Speaker C: So ahead of your time. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Everyone's shooting it now. Yeah. So yeah, but. But learning that and then kind of fell into that. And I learned a lot of skills. Learned a lot about live videos, stuff like live switching, directing and editing. And while still my main passion and main love was stills that sort of parallel that and this. I kept that in my pocket for a while, went away from it, came back to it, and then doing a lot of that now. And I have a studio here where we do a lot of video work. And a lot of it's on location stuff and some of it's fairly dry, but, you know, it's. It's all doing stuff. Someone can be just, you know, recording conferences and that, but, you know. Yeah. [00:49:42] Speaker C: Still got a camera in hand. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. [00:49:46] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Okay. There's a lot of. There's a lot of parallels and crossover from audio engineering to video editing. From what I found in terms of like just. Just the editing. Yeah. Like obviously having a sound background for video itself. But even just these kind of the layout of an editor and how. How it works is it feels similar. [00:50:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:09] Speaker B: But then there's some frustrating differences too. But yeah, I had that same. I was scared of video for a long time. [00:50:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker B: And then. But had that same background in audio engineering. And then you sort of start to. You're like, oh, it's actually kind of similar. [00:50:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's it. When you take the audio component out and, you know, it's working with sound waves and it's, you know, editing and cutting and chopping. And again, that was coming from an era when you had tape recording onto tape and having to physically chop stuff and erase things, you know, all that sort of stuff. [00:50:38] Speaker C: Wow. [00:50:38] Speaker A: You know, to then going into the digital world. So it was a big Change. But yeah, there are lots of parallels which I think probably helped. I think you're right, Justin. That was. Yeah. Did help sort of. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Familiar kind of a setup. When you open up the program, you're like, oh, yeah, okay. [00:50:51] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:50:54] Speaker C: And speaking of that transition from. From film and tape for video, but film into digital photography, how did that pan out for you? Were you an earlier adopter or did you kind of hold off until it was. Until digital was properly cooked? [00:51:09] Speaker A: I'm not the latest and greatest guy, but I love technology and I love all that. I don't go out, but I'm not. I'm not a Luddite either. I remember. So I was working at a camera store then and when all those, when that transition was going on. Yeah. And so you'd have these digital cameras that came in that were huge. I remember Kodak making. They're essentially a 35 milli camera. I don't know if you remember them. They were 35 millimeter camera with a huge sort of base on them, like this big with the camera sort of on the top. And that was the digital camera. And you know, the specs, you know, these days were so, so average, you know. [00:51:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:45] Speaker A: I can't remember what they were, but they were really horrible. And I'm looking at it and going, I'm not so sure about this digital thing, but watched it and then you kind of. And then it became forced to in the end anyway, to a large extent in some regards, but I don't think I held off. I, I don't think I was an early adopter either. I was somewhere probably in the middle, I think for me, working in the video world. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Was it like that? [00:52:13] Speaker A: Something like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah. The Nikon Kodak partnership. Yeah, there you go. And they were huge. Heavy. They were heavy. [00:52:22] Speaker B: State of the art. [00:52:24] Speaker A: They were, they were. Then that was. And yeah, I think they were even bigger than that initially. But yeah, that's. That's pretty much what they were. And they were. They were huge. [00:52:31] Speaker C: But to be fair, the top, the actual camera body, not the, not the block at the bottom, like the design for, for, you know, digital mirrorless cameras. Isn't. That. Doesn't stray that far from that, does it? [00:52:42] Speaker A: No, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. DSLRs at least. Well, they just took. They just took a camera body and attached on there. But they. [00:52:50] Speaker B: Oh, you know, they're cool. Look at, look at the. What, what were those Serial port. Yeah, serial port. That's right. I can imagine that in the, in the brochure, like serial port. [00:53:01] Speaker A: Well, you got, you gotta, you gotta remember at this time there was. If you were working as a professional photographer, like a studio photographer, you would have Polaroid backs on your film cameras. So you would, you would set up your lighting, you would get your talent in there, or you'd get the assistant to come and stand in there. You put, you have your Polaroid back on your 35 millimeter or no, probably more so your 120 or your 4 by 5. You take a Polaroid of the setup, check your Polaroid for your exposure, and then take that off and put your film back on and do your actual shots. So when digital came in, it kind of was going, okay, we're going to take all of that away. And you only have to. You can see straight away what you're getting. Pretty much. Yeah. Or downloading onto a computer or connecting via the serial port onto your computer onto a screen. And so that was, you know, there was the cost of Polaroid film, Polaroid backs, plus the cost of film. So that was the transition with them. So taking that out of the equation was huge. So having something like that. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:03] Speaker A: Looking back now again, while they're. They're crazy, mad big clunky things and they were really expensive too then as well. But that was the genesis of, of that change, I think, which kind of sparked where we are now. So. [00:54:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it is interesting about the Polaroid back. I didn't realize that was a thing. [00:54:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:22] Speaker C: But now today we have like some of the Instax cameras technically are a digital camera with a Polaroid back. With an Instax back. [00:54:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:29] Speaker C: But is it DJI, just who was it that just insta360 just released that new camera with the. And it's got a. It's got like a tiny film printer. Well, it's. I think. [00:54:41] Speaker B: You know what, it's almost like they kind of copied that. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:45] Speaker C: From. [00:54:46] Speaker B: From the image we just looked at. Let me just find a picture. If you. Have you seen this thing that they're, they're selling this. It's like an action camera. [00:54:55] Speaker A: I've known the 360. [00:54:57] Speaker C: Yeah. So they've released a new grip with a couple of actual. [00:55:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:55:00] Speaker C: No, I haven't seen dials, tactile dials to change things. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:04] Speaker C: But they've also included like a. Let me find like a Polaroid printer that sticks to the bottom of it. [00:55:11] Speaker B: And so it's all modular. [00:55:13] Speaker A: That could Be really helpful. Yeah, well, they're fantastic. Those sorts of things are great for traveling. When we're traveling overseas and photographing and you're in a context, like a third world context or another, where you have all the kids coming around, you're taking their photos, it's good to actually give people something. [00:55:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we did a few times. [00:55:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, right. [00:55:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:55:33] Speaker B: So, yeah, like, I've shut. [00:55:37] Speaker C: Where I've set up an Instax camera over on like a table with a. With a book and a white, like, black page photo book with a white pen. And people could. I'd take their photos and they'd stick it in the book and then they'd write a message with the white on the black paper. They always look. [00:55:49] Speaker A: Oh, excellent. Yeah. [00:55:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Nice for weddings and all that sort of stuff. [00:55:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, there was. I did. I actually did a wedding. I don't do weddings. Right. Actually did one last. Last month. I was, I was reluctant and it was a friend of a friend, and they, they, they rang up and they said, oh, would you mind doing it? I said, I actually don't do weddings. You know, there's a whole lot of really good wedding photographers out there. And they said, no, no, we want. We want a photojournalistic approach to our wedding. [00:56:17] Speaker B: That sounds nice. Got me there. How. How were you able to stay true to that on the day? Or did you get pulled? Did they pull you into kind of like, Like. Yeah, we said documentary, but we actually want you to do all this setup stuff. [00:56:35] Speaker A: No, they were great. They were really, really great couple. And they did that. They. Yeah, they fly on the wall stuff. It was really, really good. So I'm kind of going, okay, that's awesome. I can stomach. [00:56:46] Speaker C: Key question. Did you get fed? [00:56:48] Speaker A: I did, yes. They looked after me very, very well. Me and the dj, we had a table. And the reason why I brought that up was when you just mentioned about having stuff. They had digital cameras on every camp, on every table for their guests to take photos of, which is, you know, used to be disposable cameras back in the day. It's disposable film cameras. But they looked like they bought them just probably off TEMU or somewhere. They were just unbranded little digital cameras and people could. It's a great idea. Great idea. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Just quick, quick little. [00:57:18] Speaker C: Now those, those disposable film cameras. I was at W the other day. I'm sure I saw one for like 40 bucks. [00:57:27] Speaker B: Wow. It's like, it Adds up, Adds up pretty quick. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it really does. Yeah. [00:57:33] Speaker C: Like it's crazy. What do we got here? Yeah. The waterproof one is 48 for 27 exposures. The Kodak one is 50. That has a flash. The Fujifilm one is 44. That's crazy. [00:57:46] Speaker A: Wow. [00:57:47] Speaker B: I guess film, film is so expensive now. [00:57:49] Speaker C: Maybe it's. [00:57:50] Speaker B: And that comes in a tiny little roll, so. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:53] Speaker C: But you know, for 50, there's one here for 95 bucks. [00:57:57] Speaker A: Wow. [00:57:58] Speaker C: Kodak Water and Sports Disposable 35 mil. But for 95 bucks you can go and buy it. [00:58:03] Speaker B: I mean, but at that point just buy an X half and just toss it out when you finish with it. [00:58:09] Speaker A: I mean. [00:58:12] Speaker C: Sorry. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I just, just quickly. [00:58:18] Speaker A: I wanna. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah, like that wedding, you know, would you do more of those if you, if you were guaranteed that it could be like that, like, like proper documentary, you know, because that is obviously I love that. That's your, you do a lot of different genres, but in general that's your overarching style. It is documentary. [00:58:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think that's. And that was only a realization I've come to only probably recently, but I think, yeah, just documenting the world around me and going, yeah, I can do that, I can do that. I can do stuff in the studio, I can do this and that. But just documenting what's going on around me and trying to do that in an unbiased way is a challenge. Yeah. Look, I might do more of it. I don't know if someone asked, but I'm gonna. It's still a long day and it's, it's slightly stressful. Yeah. [00:58:59] Speaker C: Pressure, isn't there? [00:59:00] Speaker A: Oh yeah, absolutely. I was waiting for them in, during the ceremony for the, the kiss. You know, there's always. There's the kiss. Not always, but there's the kiss. And they didn't have a kiss and I was getting stressed out. Cuz when's the kiss coming? And they didn't kiss. They got to the end and they haven't kissed. I was worried about missing the shot and. But they weren't, they didn't care about it. So, you know, there's, there's those sorts of moments that you just got to get and the little flower girl walking up with the rings and yeah, blah, blah, blah and all that sort of stuff. [00:59:26] Speaker B: So that's one of the things that you look like. Because we did it, we did the weddings for quite a while. Jim still does them now. I don't, I don't do them so much anymore, but we did them for 10 years as a business, and they're the sorts of things you start to learn that different celebrants have different formats. So we would always. We'd rock up. The first thing we do is talk to the celebrant, be like, hey, what's the structure when you do the first kiss? Is there anything weird? Anything weird happening? And then the final question always is, where do you normally stand during the first kiss? And they usually say just, well, I'll be just there behind the couple. And you're like, would you mind not being there? You know, could you maybe for that, for that part, just take a few steps off to one side and then do that part. And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Because when there's just like half the head of a celebrant behind. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's weird. [01:00:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's weird. [01:00:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:17] Speaker B: So. But you only learn those things, though, after it happening, and then you're like, oh, yeah, that's right. [01:00:25] Speaker A: Well, we have these wonderful integrations now with AI. You can just remove all that stuff fairly. That's true. [01:00:31] Speaker B: Add some other in the background. Put the elephant back there or whatever you want. Actually. [01:00:36] Speaker C: That's a very good segue. Thank you. There's a comment here from Paul who says, I think live music will get a boost as people lose confidence in online or streamed music. [01:00:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:44] Speaker C: As AI generated sludge starts drowning out the human generated art. And I think that could be said, hopefully that could be said for photography too. What are your thoughts on that? [01:00:54] Speaker A: So what's the. What's he actually asking? [01:00:56] Speaker C: Well, he's not asking. He. He's just saying that he thinks that people will move back to live music more because they'll get. [01:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:01:04] Speaker C: You know, mass produce fake music, so to speak. [01:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there was, There was. There was watching. I don't know if you guys watch Rick Beardo at all on YouTube. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, a little bit. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I haven't caught up on all of his stuff lately about sort of all of that topic. I'd love to know what. Yeah, what's great. [01:01:21] Speaker A: Well, he did a. He did a thing. He's going, I'll show you how easy it is to. To create a song in AI from start to finish. And he did it in a matter of minutes. And I mean, he's. [01:01:33] Speaker B: I was gonna say he. He is a wizard in terms of. So it's like that's kind of like a. The world's best photographer being like. Like, look how easy it is to just put this cannon on auto and take. Great. And it's like, yeah, but you, you know. [01:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but what he did, what he did was he goes, here's the prompts. I'm going to use some fairly specific prompts. I want to create a song. I want to create a country song that's written about this, this and this prompts. And I want, you know, name and I want a photo and I want lyrics. And he did all that and it came up, you know, comes up really quickly. Then it drops that into another AI music generating program where you take those lyrics, you just literally drop them into this other program, you give it a few prompts and then bang, there's a song there. And he did it within a matter of a few minutes. And I know, yeah, he's a pro. But what. In that context, I'm going, it actually wasn't. You don't need a lot of skill, if any, to do that. [01:02:25] Speaker B: Especially if you do it 400 times and you only need one hit. So, you know, like, because you can iterate so fast and then every one stumble across one, you're like, wow, that's got, that's got something on it, you know, like I've, I've hit it. So, yeah, you don't have to be an expert. You just got. That's right, keep cranking on it on that. [01:02:41] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah, keep, keep generating. You get something that you want. So, you know, I think there will be a push back towards. Yeah. Actual photography in the flesh doing stuff. I think the AI is going to go too far. It's an interesting thing. It's a tool. You know, everyone's got their own thoughts on AI and I love how it's integrated into things like Lightroom that I use all the time or Photoshop. And those integrations have been helpful. But when they're starting to be whole AI generated bands that are going to the top 10 on the Spotify charts or whatever, I'm going, whoa, what, what's happened here? What? What? Yeah, what is that? And the songs are, they're okay. They're not bad songs when you listen to them and they're hard to pick, if you could pick them at all. That was the other thing that Rick Beyond I talked about. He talked about, here's some songs on the top 10 that have been generated by this. And, and. But he couldn't pick out where they were coming from. There they've appeared. But again, who's doing this stuff? Yeah, you know, who's doing that. And they're generating huge amounts of money, so. [01:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah, but what's interesting. What's going to get interesting, though, is they're generating huge amounts of money. But why are they generating so. So much money? Yeah, because. Is it. Is it because they get some traction and then how are they getting discovered? People aren't. People aren't sending AI songs to each other and being like, oh, man, you got to listen to this. This is. This is the new track from Nobody. So is it because Spotify is pushing them? I think algorithm's pushing them. [01:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Be something to do with that. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. [01:04:17] Speaker B: Like, how are they going viral? [01:04:19] Speaker A: It's something to do with all of that type of thing, you know, and. [01:04:21] Speaker C: There'S literally almost no overheads for them. [01:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, so is. Right, but that's what I mean is, like, is. Is that why Spotify is pushing them? Because it's like, this will be a more profitable way for us to have people. You know, like, rather than paying artists, we can just pay people to generate AI songs. And. [01:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, very few. Very few artists are making money off streaming platforms anyway. Unless you're Taylor Swift or Ed Sheeran, you know, where you're getting the gazillion streams. Yeah. [01:04:49] Speaker B: And even then, they're probably not getting what they should be getting for that. For that level of popularity, you know, compared to, say, what. What a superstar like Michael Jackson would have got from album sales back in the day. [01:05:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:03] Speaker B: I'm assuming he got a lot. [01:05:05] Speaker C: Yeah, well, he bought a monkey in a giraffe. I'm sure he earned lots. That's true. [01:05:09] Speaker B: That's true. [01:05:10] Speaker A: He had Neverland. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's. There's. There's a real. I think these things will come back to the real tactile. I want to have something that I can touch and feel and be a part of and that human experience. I was working with a band just recently who they. They've released an album which is a little bit of a pushback against AI where they had. They. They wanted all the artwork that they were associating with their record to be generated by music. And the way that they did that is they. They created a. They called it, which was essentially a speaker, and they put a canvas on the top of that speaker with paint, and they played the songs through that and let the paint generate these artworks. So they had a different artwork for every song. So you go to Bandcamp, you can find that. You know, there's the COVID and then each song Has a different artwork that's generated by the music. And there was a little bit of a pushback against AI just going, let's get the human side into this, or let's let the art speak. Not something that's generated by an algorithm or the like. So I thought that was a really cool project. Yeah, that's. [01:06:19] Speaker B: That is a very cool way to take a stand in a fun way to organ your album. We will get back to photography, I promise. But I want to. So AI is fun to talk about. So we've hit this point where it can generate songs. You know, you heard our crappy intro song. That was. That was one. One problem. It's really unfortunate. One prompt. Yeah, really. It. Actually, I found with this thing that I tried a few times sooner or whatever, and now I'm not a. I'm not a AI music person, but I do know a little bit about music, so I kind of know what I want. But the thing I was finding was I was trying to refine these songs and make them better with additional prompts. They got worse and worse. It was often the first. The first, like, spin up. I was like, wow, that's catchy. It's got something. I just like to maybe try and make it, you know, change it this way, that way. Got worse, got worse, got worse. It was really interesting. It's probably just my lack of prompting ability, because I don't do that. I just did this for fun and turned out we'd like having an intro song. [01:07:31] Speaker C: Just a little slight interjection there. I saw a thing on, I think it was Instagram this morning. I was just doom scrolling while I was waiting to start here. And there was something about a new Coca Cola ad for their crisp because they're big about Christmas, Right. And they're Santa Claus, they're White Santa and all of that. So they created an AI generated ad and it had like 700 or maybe it was even like thousands of prompts to get to the final image. And it's like in that time frame, you could have paid an illustrator. [01:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:02] Speaker C: To just do the drawing, like do the. Do the graphical art. You know, it just. [01:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:07] Speaker B: Yep. [01:08:08] Speaker C: Frustrating. [01:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I do. I do worry about the future and, you know, their kids having jobs and all that sort of stuff, but. Yeah. [01:08:15] Speaker B: Well. Well, this is what I want to talk about because a lot of the people in. So. So where I was getting at that is so that that app can. Can generate music off a single prompt and you can tweak it and people can make songs and they, they end up in the charts. Yeah, that takes a fair bit of computing power. But at the speed that AI is getting better, there is a lot of talk that we won't be that far from feature length films that are AI generated with prompts. So rather than it being like, oh, I made a cool song, it can be like, I made it. I made a movie about Greg, you know, like, just for fun, you prompted it in and like make a feature length movie about Greg with Greg in it. And that seems pretty crazy. [01:09:02] Speaker C: I just found the Coca Cola ad. It was seven. Over 7,000 prompts to generate. It's a video to generate this year's special Coca Cola. It's the second year in a row they've used AI to generate their ads and it's the second year in a row that people are protesting. [01:09:16] Speaker A: It's really interesting, isn't it? It's interesting that there's a lot of clauses being put in place by different companies saying you cannot submit generated AI generated artwork. Or. I have a friend who's a digital artist. He's a, he's a really great digital artist and he's, he's huge. And he creates all his stuff on a computer. It's not AI generated, but he creates it digitally. And, and yeah, if you're submitting stuff somewhere, there's different clauses coming with different people that won't except AI generated artworks. Which, which raises some other questions. I'm going, how do you know it's AI generated or not? It is getting harder to tell. And I was having this discussion with someone the other day about, you know, there's once upon a time you could believe a photo that you saw. You know, there's a photo taken of, of a UFO in Midwest American going, yeah, it's proof. Or there was this thing that happened, but now you can't believe any photos. [01:10:16] Speaker B: You know, and, and then there was a point where it was like, well, if you, if you were filming while you took that photo, you could be like, here, yeah, this is me standing on the mountain when I took this sunrise photo. But now soon you're going to be able to generate the footage. You could fake the footage too soon. [01:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:35] Speaker B: Like, it's true. [01:10:36] Speaker C: Like you get halfway through like a video on say, Instagram and you're convinced that something's actually happening. And then, you know, something like a. I watched one this morning and this, this car ended up crashing and flipping and then everyone rushed to the car. I think it was like a rally car. And then it zooms into the window, and it's a cat that just turns around and sticks up its finger. Like. But until the cat. [01:10:56] Speaker B: What are you doing? [01:10:58] Speaker C: I watch a lot of cat videos, but until I saw that there was a cat in the driver's seat, I was convinced it was real. Yeah, like, there was no question. [01:11:07] Speaker A: For me, it's crazy. [01:11:08] Speaker C: Some sort of car accident thing and cat with a helmet on and sunglasses just sticking its finger up at you. [01:11:14] Speaker B: So it's crazy. [01:11:17] Speaker A: Does it actually happen? [01:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you don't know. [01:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [01:11:23] Speaker C: And I. I think that's the biggest problem is what people choose to believe from that content. You know, it's what people. I mean, that example is pretty extreme, obviously. I watch a lot of cat videos, so that's. You know, people can pretty much just send that. Oh, that's not real. But they're getting real. [01:11:39] Speaker B: You know what's sad for me is it's we're going to see the death of UFO photos because they were so blurry and so grainy, and you never knew exactly what it was, but it just gave you some sliver of hope. There's something out there. But now there's no excuse for these fake UFO photos to be grainy. You can just generate a real UFO in AI and be like, look, I saw one. [01:12:01] Speaker A: That's right. [01:12:02] Speaker B: So we won't even have that genre anymore. [01:12:04] Speaker C: Anymore. [01:12:04] Speaker A: Yes. UFOs in the loch Ness Monster. [01:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Bigfoot. Yeah, it's all of it missed. The joy of what might be out there in the universe of mysteries is it's over. You just generate and just people will be like, oh, there's Bigfoot. Yeah. [01:12:20] Speaker C: Let me just jump to a couple of quick comments. One from Lucinda. I hate when I get to the end and I realize it's AI, which is like the example I was just talking about. But also, the mermaids chasing the fishermen are on my for you page. I haven't seen that one yet, but now that I've said it out loud, my phone is probably already loading up my algorithm. And finally, from Lisa Leach. Good day, Lisa. You mean it was not real? Next you'll be saying that there's no such thing as Santa. Nobody tell her. [01:12:45] Speaker B: No, I've seen him. He's in photos. He's in photos all the time. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. [01:12:51] Speaker C: You could always pass for a center there, Luke. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. [01:12:58] Speaker C: Things get rough and AI takes over. You can always switch careers, I think. Pixie photos. [01:13:03] Speaker A: Right? The pixie, they still exist. Oh, I remember. I think you're talking about might have been on Lucinda's one year where you're going. It's great to have some female. A female on here, not the, not the gray bearded old guy. So. I'm sorry. [01:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a pretty beard heavy podcast. All right, speaking of podcasting, we should get back to talking about photography. What year do you shoot with for all the of your work? [01:13:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think like I mentioned before, I'm not the latest and greatest guy. So I, I have a whole lot of Canon 5Ds that I've been using ever since they came out and I really, really like them and I've used other mirrorless ones and, and they, yeah, they're okay and there's nothing, I have nothing against them. I just like the clunk of a shutter and yeah, they have a serious clunk. [01:13:50] Speaker B: I miss the, the good clunk when you're shooting in the crappy electronic shutter modes. [01:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [01:13:56] Speaker B: Of the new stuff. [01:13:57] Speaker C: So. [01:13:57] Speaker B: So we talking like 5D mark fours or what? [01:14:00] Speaker A: Threes. [01:14:01] Speaker C: Threes. [01:14:02] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, that's. [01:14:05] Speaker A: Well, you can pick up a three for, you know, like four or $500. Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's a full frame 35 mil DS camera. [01:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, the autofocus jumped much better going from the 2 to 3. The autofocus was way, way better. [01:14:23] Speaker A: And then to the four as well, you know, but I've just had those and I'm going, okay, I'll, I'll run them into the ground and I've got, I've got a case full of those. And they're, they're really, really good. They're, they're, they're solid. They're, they're rocksty. They very, very rarely let me down. Yeah, they are, they are beat to crap. And the, all of them, no joke, are missing the top dial, the, like the, the mode dial, all of them are all missing that. I don't know why, it's obviously a design flaw, but, you know. Yeah, it doesn't matter. So I've memorized all the mode clicks on the thing because I can't see it anymore. And they're all beat up, but they're, they're really good. I think that that came about when Canon brought out the 5D and offered the video feature on those. And it was. You could get this crazy depth of field on your video, which really wasn't available before to. At like an affordable price. You had to buy A really pro grade cinema camera. But now you could use your 50mil 1.4 land, 1.2 lens with this crazy depth of field in a video or making movies that you know, I think Breaking Bad, I think the first series was all shot on like a 7D I think or most of it was shot on a seven day. And again, you know, that's just crazy. That's just crazy. [01:15:44] Speaker C: Amazing, isn't it? [01:15:45] Speaker A: And, and so that, that really drew me to that as a video maker as well. And because again, what is this? And had another friend that was using it goes you got to try it. And we did. And then I just stuck with them and went through all of them and you know, I haven't even got a 4 yet. So you know. [01:16:00] Speaker B: What about for your video work? [01:16:03] Speaker A: No, I've got some other cameras I use for video work. Some Sony's that I use for that. I do use these occasionally but I kind of. There's a, there's a lot of limitations around the video work work with them because they're still, at the end of the day, they're a hybrid camera when it comes to video work and just connecting mics in and they can only record for a certain length of time before the effort. [01:16:25] Speaker B: That's what I was wondering. I thought you must have had the, like the Magic lantern. [01:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I do, I do run that as well. [01:16:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And what's that? [01:16:32] Speaker C: What's the Magic Lantern? [01:16:33] Speaker B: It's just like a jailbreak for, for better video settings essentially. [01:16:38] Speaker A: You download it. Yeah. Firmware. You download it onto your card and it opens up all these other features. It gave you like audio meters and. Yeah, it creates, it keeps your shutter rolling the whole time. [01:16:52] Speaker B: Some very, very smart nerds that wanted better video features that obviously saw the potential of that sensor and stuff and they were like, why don't Canon just make this better? So they did it themselves. It was, it was pretty brilliant. You can still, it's still like all. You can still use that stuff on. If you buy a 5D Mark III now you could go and get Magic Lantern software and put it on there. I'm sure it's all still up and live running and. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. So it's quite amazing. [01:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:20] Speaker C: Well, I'm really surprised Canon hasn't tried to take that down. I'm sure other brands that have similar kind of things. [01:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah, probably have. But I mean I don't think it's a for profit company. I think it's more of like a, an open source. [01:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:36] Speaker B: It is. [01:17:36] Speaker A: That's really great, great resource. There's a whole lot of functions on there. Like so many functions that you probably know something you're not going to use but just good to have. Yeah, yeah. [01:17:44] Speaker B: I think it even might have had some, some photography functions and stuff. Maybe like more expanded like intervalometer sort of stuff and things I think. [01:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah it did have an intervalometer on there and yeah some other stuff like that. Maybe some more histogramming stuff. I can't remember there was yeah a bunch of stuff on there but you know they're really good so. But yeah, I need to probably upgrade. I don't hate mirrorless. I a big fan of it but I just to change the system again it's like yeah, that's a big, that's. [01:18:12] Speaker C: A big leap and you're right. Especially when you can go from oh this camera's. I need to upgrade this. I can pick one up for four or five hundred bucks. Four or five, four or five grand. [01:18:21] Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean it's gonna say you could buy 10, 10 5D Mark III for the price of one new mirrorless camera and just be like well when they run out, they run out. I'll change over. [01:18:31] Speaker C: So what about lenses? Do. Do you. What. What lenses are you carrying to a typical event? [01:18:37] Speaker A: Depending on the event. But my go to's are always 70 to 202.8 fixed and 24 to 72.8 fixed. They're my two go to's then you're like a 16 to 35 wide or a 17 to 40 wide depending on those. Those really wide ones are good for the photojournalistic work. Particular protest stuff. If you're doing a lot of that. It's just good to get when you want to. We're not sure what's going to happen and you want to get everything in and then 50 mil for, for other portrait work. But generally 70, 224 to 70 are always there. Always on me. [01:19:10] Speaker C: On two bodies. [01:19:11] Speaker A: Two bodies at least. Yeah, minimum. And because they're not, because they're not heavy enough I put a motor drives on them as well. Or the grip because it's just, it's just. I just like it. It makes them so heavy. But again, I don't care. [01:19:26] Speaker B: You know, it's a workout. [01:19:28] Speaker A: It is, it's a workout. And you can drop them and you can bump them and particularly with music and the, and protest stuff, there's stuff's getting bumped all the time and kicked and beers spilled and you know, blah, blah, Blah. So they're just, they're good for those. And then it, and then I've got a 150 to 600. Oof. Sigma. Sigma. The big Gigantor. [01:19:51] Speaker B: The big, if you will. [01:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah, the big one there was the, the longest lens that I could afford without going into stupid money first for the stadium shows. So when you go to shoot from the sound desk at the back of the room. I'll take that one. So, you know. [01:20:06] Speaker C: Nice. [01:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:20:08] Speaker C: So let's talk about, you mentioned earlier about the, about, you know, shooting, documentary, shooting photojournalistic style protests. And on your website there's a, there's a range of amazing images from mostly Melbourne protests. From what I can tell. Where did that, how did that come about? How did you. I mean, you've said that, you know, you've come to the realization that you're actually always documenting. That's just, that's your style is to document. When did moving into that kind of, you know, David Dare Parker, Chris Hopkins territory come come up for you? [01:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah, the. I think living in Melbourne, kind of the protest capital of the world, helps with that when on any given day you can find a protest. I, I'm just really interested in that human side where, what, what motivates someone to do that thing. I love passion in whatever form it takes and documenting that passion and that, that comes out in a whole lot of different ways, the human condition, all that sort of stuff, trying to capture those moments. And I'm going, some really important stuff that's also happening in our city that doesn't get documented or doesn't get documented well. So trying to document what's happening and with a. None, with no bias is a challenge. And we've lots of stuff gets documented with major biases. You know, we look at, you know, a lot of big media companies, mainstream media, it's all, there's a reason why they're doing stuff. But I'm going, how do I document something without me? Like if I took a photo, you wouldn't know where I stood on that. If there was a divisive topic, hopefully you wouldn't know. [01:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah, okay. [01:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the challenge. [01:21:52] Speaker B: I, I wrote notes down about this because I wanted to ask you about this because we've had, you know, various people on the show that do protest photography. And yeah, most of the time they do have a political leaning, which I, I think is totally fine because it's, it's. But, but I'm very interested in that line between photojournalism and activism. Because we all know what you leave in and out of a frame and. And how you wait where you position yourself. You are making a choice of how to portray that scene. And I do believe that that's totally fine. It's not. It's not like, oh, they're doing it wrong because they showed the bad side of this crowd or something like that. It's just that was. That was what they were there to do, to write an article on whatever. But. Yeah, but I did look at your. You know, and I found myself thinking, I wonder what he thinks about this scene, you know, like, you know, and that. So to me, that meant you have portrayed that in an unbiased way. And whether or not you have a bias, it seems like you left it out of it. [01:22:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we all do. Yeah, I think we all. [01:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:58] Speaker A: Everyone's got an opinion. Everyone's got their. Their thing. I think I was driven and still are, particularly with I standing next to reporters who would blatantly lie about a situation for whatever reason. And I'm going, that's not. That's not right. That's not good. Why. And why are you doing that? I'm gonna. I just want to. Yeah. Just want to go, here's what's happening. [01:23:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:22] Speaker A: In our city and getting it out there. And, you know, that's the challenge. So. But, yeah. [01:23:28] Speaker B: Well, congratulations, because I. I think that's. That's the best way I could explain it is I was having a hard time thinking, I wonder where he stands on these issues. And that means that you're not portraying it through your imagery. You're just displaying the imagery, you know, like. [01:23:41] Speaker A: Like. [01:23:42] Speaker B: Like this image. I don't know where you stand on that point based on this image, but it's a great photo. [01:23:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. All protesters need to have a break and have a smoke. [01:23:52] Speaker B: That's. That's right. And I think that's what gives it. I don't know if it gives it, like, some tension or a bit of, like, it lets it swirl around in your head. If you're like, you know, it. Are you. Are you. Yeah. What are you saying with this image? And it leaves it up to me to interpret as opposed to you kind of. [01:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. [01:24:11] Speaker B: Putting that on me. [01:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right, Justin. There's just finding that moment and going here. I do do what it. With you do what with you will. Oh, I'll get my words around the right way. Do you know what I mean? Here's a. Yeah. You tell you Interpret it as you will and not knowing what's going on. That particular one was around our premier introducing more powers for police, I think and taxes at the time. I can't remember exactly what that one was from. And cbd. Oh, yeah, that was the day. Yeah, there was multiple protests happening in the city. Yeah, there was, I think that day there was at least three happening in the city. Someone told me there was six. I only got to three or four of them. But yeah, just finding that moment and just finding those maybe not the really passionate moments sometimes and just. Yeah, the decisive moment is. Yeah. [01:25:04] Speaker B: So what do you have any advice for, for other people that might be covering protests to. Because again, I don't want to say that anyone should or shouldn't, you know, photograph with a bias or without a bias or whatever. That's, that's their choice to make, personal choice. But if they wanted to try and be more objective. Do you have any advice on how to get into that mindset and be more objective on. In a heated situation? [01:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a challenge because yeah, like you're saying, wherever you, whatever you frame, wherever you stand, what however you edit, even the choice to do black and white or to color. Well, if already, there's already all those choices already made about stuff. I think getting yourself and trying to go, okay, if I'm a person standing here in this moment with that going on, what am I seeing, what am I just viewing? What am I experiencing? You know, that particular one, the police had blocked a bridge. There was a protest plan to go do something with the bridge. And, and the right cops were all there and they're super intimidating. [01:26:14] Speaker B: They look really intimidating. [01:26:17] Speaker A: That's the idea. They're supposed to be so trying to go, okay, I'm actually feeling intimidated. I'm standing really close to these. And they had these big armored vans as well. [01:26:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:26:26] Speaker A: And, and they, they got weapons and they shoot a whole lot of stuff. And okay, I'm actually feeling pretty intimidated. I'm standing in that sort of no man's land in between a wall of protesters and a wall of police. And I'm going, that feels. That's a little scary because if it all goes pear shaped, I'm right in the middle of it and I'm going down. So I think just to kind of find your viewpoint and, and stick with it and being a little bit bold and, and getting into the middle of it, I think it's easy to shoot from the fringes, but you really do need to get into the middle of it and Just going, okay. I mean, you need to be, I don't know, you need to assist, assess the situations, and if safety is of a concern to you, then you need to take it in. I, I don't concern myself too much with it, and I've been very fortunate so far, but there's always the potential for it. But I think most of the time when you got a camera in your hand in these situations, the, not always, but the police are pretty, pretty. They let you kind of just roam. [01:27:24] Speaker B: Around, providing they don't see you as, as any kind of threat or something like that. You found that they're, that you're not their concern, mostly on the day because they're worried about other things that are happening. [01:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not, I'm not a concern. I'm just there documenting and. Yeah. [01:27:41] Speaker B: Do you think, all right, let's, let's go this direction. Do you think there are ways that you act, dress or whatever that makes you seem less threatening to either the police or protesters? And is there ways that maybe you see other photographers act and dress where you're like, or that's, that's maybe asking for more trouble than you would like? [01:28:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, look, I, I, I have, I have two cameras hanging off me, and that's, that's a red flag. I, there's so much stuff where you've been. I've been abused, kicked, punch, spat upon, shot at, all that sort of stuff by, you know, by police and by protesters because of the fact they've just had cameras hanging with. They don't know who I am or what I'm shooting for. But just purely by the fact that you have two cameras there, a lot of other press guys will have press, depending on the situation, they'll have press on them, on their front, on their back, which sometimes helps. Sometimes it makes it worse. [01:28:38] Speaker B: Makes it worse. [01:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, there's, I don't know, there's minimizing. I think we were talking before about compact cameras off camera. We're talking about compact cameras. So I'm actually looking at investigating that for this very reason. Just to go into a situation where I can just look like a regular punter, not have two massive cameras hanging off me. Just a little camera that can fit in my pocket, I can pull it out and get good shots with. So, yeah, that's probably, if you want to be inconspicuous, it's probably that's having two big cameras hanging off is not the way to go about it. [01:29:09] Speaker B: It's interesting because I wondered whether that Was potentially better to be. To be. It can be, you know, like, so, so the police look and they're like, okay, this guy's. He's here to do that. I'm going to take him off my, you know, radar and focus on this as opposed to when it's a little bit unknown. Are you, Are you a protest? Are you not a protest? I got this little camera, but yeah. And so I was, that's what I was interested in. Both directions. [01:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think generally, I would say 80 to 90% of the time, it's, it's, it's not a problem because the, the, the authorities will see you as someone who's neutral. And I try not to abuse that. Even if I have a strong opinion about what's going on. You kind of go, I'm going to be partial. The police will often ask you if there's a protest and there's a clear divide. They'll go, whose side are you on? And I'm going, I'm on. Neither is always my response with that, which doesn't help because you can't get anywhere. And going, well, that. But through the COVID lockdowns, the protests that were happening then, happening then, it didn't matter if you're a photographer or not. [01:30:12] Speaker C: The. [01:30:13] Speaker A: You were targeted. Everyone was targeted then. And. But it was important to document a lot of stuff that was going on in, in our city then. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It depends on the time. Yeah. [01:30:25] Speaker B: What happens to your protest images? What do you do with them? [01:30:30] Speaker A: You try and shop them around. I don't shoot for anyone specifically with those. Sometimes they get picked up. Most people don't really want to touch. [01:30:39] Speaker B: Them. [01:30:41] Speaker A: Because of the nature of them. Because sometimes they can be divisive. Yeah. And stuff. Some of the, the COVID stuff got picked up by the BBC overseas and they ran with that going, here's what's happening in Melbourne. Because, you know, we were, as we all, you know, we had the worst lockdowns in the world and there was these really violent protests going on and there was people getting, you know, all sorts of stuff was happening. [01:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, sorry. [01:31:04] Speaker A: And that got picked up, you know, particularly when the CFMEU had their protests down here. I know. [01:31:08] Speaker B: If you remember, didn't they camp out. [01:31:10] Speaker C: On the tram line or something in the middle of the day? [01:31:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there was all sorts. It was pretty much nail guns versus police guns. That's an analogy. But it was, it felt like that you had. Yeah, they had just. Where the CFMEU is with net that intersection down near the big market. Yeah, that was all. That was all blocked. It was a war zone. It was brutal. And they were breaking the windows into the cfmeu. The police were trying to stop it and it was, it was brutal. But there was an image there of. I got. [01:31:41] Speaker C: Of. [01:31:41] Speaker A: I don't know if, I don't think it's on the website, I don't know if it's on the Instagram. I don't think it is. But it was of three or four guys in front of this wall of CFMEU protesters kneeling down, holding hands. They saw their heads down and took a shot of that. And again that's really interesting. Didn't know what it was. That shot got picked up by the BBC as well over and they ran with that. And what I found out later was some was three or guys just praying. They were, they were from a local church community. They were praying in the midst of all this. It just made for a really interesting shot. [01:32:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:32:11] Speaker A: And the guys that were in. One of the guys actually saw the shot and he contacted me and it was kind of cool and so told me that story. That's how I found out. But I didn't realize that at the time. But yeah, there's all those sorts of moments that you, you can find. Yeah, yeah, we used to be. Have happened to happen. [01:32:27] Speaker C: So you head out to these protests or AKA a regular day in the city of Melbourne. [01:32:33] Speaker A: Yes. [01:32:35] Speaker C: With the intent to document what's going on. Not necessarily with the attempt to make money off these prints or. It's all about storytelling for you, isn't it? [01:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just storytelling what's going on. I think it's easy to forget about what's happening in our city sometimes. And you know there was the, the regular, the. The Palestinian Gaza war protest that was happening in the city every week for however long it's been since October 7th. And you know, that was a regular thing and I was just trying to document that as well and just go, yeah, here's what's. I think it's just trying to be an informative thing and it's hard to find an avenue to get those out though. So other than just your regular social media channels. So yeah, like I said, most people really, most organizations I should say, really don't kind of go, we don't care. [01:33:24] Speaker C: It's interesting though, isn't it? We. A few months ago Justin and I went to a one day photography event organized by the guys that do bfop, the Bright Festival of Photography in the city of Melbourne. And we Saw Rennie Ellis's exhibition. [01:33:37] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [01:33:38] Speaker C: Where they basically dug up all of his slides and film and images. And he was protesting fringe protests and fringe events, particularly in queer culture, the hidden queer culture of Melbourne. And it didn't seem like he. He wasn't doing those shots for, you know, full media either. [01:33:59] Speaker B: He. [01:33:59] Speaker C: He was like you. He was documenting what was going on in his world around Paran and. And South Peran and Windsor and. And secured her, especially down that. [01:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that. [01:34:09] Speaker C: Down towards the beach. And I think it's really interesting that, you know, often it's we. We find these. These caches of amazing documentary images often well and truly after the fact, and in some cases even after the. The photographer has passed and someone has found an archive and gone, holy crap, this person documented everything that went on in Melbourne, or, you know, whatever it may be. I think. I think it's fascinating when they come across those kind of treasure troves of history, and I think that's where this sort of work is particularly important about documenting. And I've been saying this a lot lately, documenting what is. [01:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:46] Speaker C: Before it becomes what was. [01:34:47] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I agree. It is really important. And there's, you know, there's. I know a bunch of photographers. There's a. There's a really good community of photographers that are doing this stuff all the time. As in protest stuff. Yeah, you know, a really great community of photographers. So. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. It's. It's important. [01:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think it is. It is really important. [01:35:13] Speaker C: And especially, as you say, at a time. Sorry, Justin. When newspapers and media outlets are swaying in one direction or another. [01:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:21] Speaker C: Sorry, James, I cut you off. [01:35:22] Speaker B: No, no, that's fine. It's just the more I look through these images, the more I keep coming back to the same thing and I just, I. I'm blown away that it's not something I've noticed before. But, you know, you. Very rarely would you see someone who does protest photography that has both, potentially both sides of an issue on their Instagram page. Yeah, like, often if you. If both sides of the issue are on their Instagram page, the other side will be the worst shots of that. [01:35:54] Speaker A: Of that group. [01:35:55] Speaker B: You know? You know what I mean? And. And again, it's fine. I just. I haven't seen it before. [01:35:58] Speaker A: Oh, that's cool. [01:36:00] Speaker B: I haven't seen it where you could have shot both sides of a protest and they're not. Not one side hasn't been like, oh, this is when. This is when this side Punched a horse. But then the other side, it's like when they handed out cupcakes kind of thing. You know what I mean? When you know that both sides had good and bad going on but they've chosen to show certain elements of it and, and which I think leans just that slight step towards being an activist as opposed to a documentary photographer. [01:36:31] Speaker A: That's right. It's a fine line and that's really good. That's great feedback. Thanks Justin. It's really, yeah, it's really important because I do that and then I find that really, really hard to do because you kind of, you seeing something that's going on and maybe every fiber within your being is going, I really dislike that. What's happening there. [01:36:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:51] Speaker A: And maybe that's a, maybe that's a motivation to help you get some shots. There's been a number of times when I photograph stuff and I've come home and I'm just to going, no, I'm not even going to look at those. I'm just going to download them to the hard drive and just forget about them. Maybe go back to them. Because I'm just going, I just didn't like what happened today and I felt like I was one sided potentially. So yeah, it's a challenge. And you kind of go, if I put something, if I post some stuff around this, is this going to encourage more people to do that stuff as well? Am I glorifying that? I try to, I try not to say too much about what's going on. A lot of other photographers, when they post protest stuff, they'll, they'll give a highly documented thing. Sometimes I do, but most of the time I just date it. Here's Melbourne today on the 20th of November 2025. Yeah, that's it, you know. [01:37:39] Speaker C: Yeah. No commentary, no views, just, just, just reading to it. [01:37:43] Speaker B: Yeah. This, this date, this time was this, this issue was being protested. Do you ever get any pushback from people like maybe on social media that have, they've started following you and then they're like, hey, why are you posting the opposite to what you did last month? Aren't you on our side anymore? Kind of. You do really? [01:38:02] Speaker A: All the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had someone who was going to report me to the police for something, something they thought I was doing the covered stuff. And when There was the 5k limit and I was in the city, they knew where I lived. Reporting you to the police and okay, well I'm working here anyway. There was that you, lots of kickback. You get there Lots of hate. Lots of hate. [01:38:30] Speaker B: But you do get a bit of hate from, like, why are you posting a picture of that horrible group that, that doesn't make them look so horrible or something like that, or vice versa. [01:38:39] Speaker A: It can be. Yeah, yeah. You can get. There's lots of stuff. Yeah. Political stuff, particular stuff around the war in Gaza was. Yeah, that's a hot topic. [01:38:47] Speaker C: It's a hot, It's a very hot topic. [01:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you know, and that, and that'. You know, people can be really mean and, and grumpy around that. So. Yeah, but sometimes you turn the comments off, try and delete stuff, but sometimes you just go, yep, no, it's not worth it. [01:39:02] Speaker C: Not worth it. [01:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but, you know, that's the challenge. More of the challenge with that stuff has been in person, when you've been at something and often people will think that you're shooting for mainstream media. So you get conflict around that and physical conflict around that. People, you know, particularly being a bloke, they'll just, so another bloke will go. You, even male or female, though, they'll go. [01:39:27] Speaker B: And they make an assumption that your media that's there to portray them poorly, basically, whichever side they're on, they're like, oh, this guy's trying to make us look bad. [01:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I can understand that, totally understand that, because that's happened and you see that. And I've worked a lot in Aboriginal communities around the country, so you walk into any Aboriginal community with the camera straight away, there's, dude. You know, and, but yeah, yeah, a lot of, a lot of negativity around that. But, you know, that's, it's, I don't mind that sometimes it can, you got to be careful it doesn't sit with you for too long. But yeah, yeah, it happens. It's part of the, part of the territory when you, when you're photographing and documenting these divisive topics, that's why they're protesting, because people feel strongly about something and there's, there's always two sides generally, sometimes more, but there's always two sides. And yeah, yeah, people want to respond. Everyone's got an opinion. [01:40:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Whilst I, I, I hate violence of any kind, unless it's in the Legend of Zelda video games that I'm fine with. But, you know, I, I love the fact that in Melbourne or Victoria or Australia, however you want to classify it, that people can do that. They can stand up for what they believe in. [01:40:37] Speaker A: Yep. [01:40:38] Speaker C: Peacefully. Do you ever get frustrated or Angry. When you've been at a protest, you've seen what took place and you know what each side, you know, you've got a fairly good idea of what you witnessed each side do to one another and then you get the news comes on and you see a very slanted one sided view. Does that, does that enrage? Because you were like calling Channel seven and going hey, I was there. [01:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Yeah, absolutely. All the time Greg. It's. I think I mentioned before, I'll be standing next to a channel, I won't say mainstream media reporter and listening to what they're saying to camera and go. And I'm looking at what they're talking about again, that's not what's happening here. So yeah, it's, it's really the, the, I think one of the biggest ones was when the, the through cover, when the police were firing upon the public. They were firing 40 millimeter. [01:41:32] Speaker C: Bullets. [01:41:33] Speaker A: Yeah, 40 millimeter. And yet that's big, big. And you know, and no one, virtually no one believed me. I don't even know if my wife believed me but they, I think she did. But we had photos of it and I'm going. Had photos of. And this harks backed a little bit about the arm. This is sort of before AI was really kicking in. [01:41:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:41:49] Speaker A: And people were going no they weren't. No they weren't. And I was standing next to a photographer, the cop one in the abdomen, kidney area and had all this internal bleeding and they bounce them off the ground. They fire them into the ground. They bounce off. Yeah, this one was, this one was direct. Yeah. So there's lots of angst around that and people, I think people didn't really want to believe what was happening at that point. Yeah, people were angry that they were angry for a whole lot of reasons. We're locked down and had all this going on and then here were these lunatics in the city doing this from their perspective, you know. [01:42:20] Speaker B: Yes. And that was, and that was the issue was in this instance. So, so police brutality, you know, on a, on a different protest would be that it would be like hey, these guys are the, the devil. They've done this to, to this nice peaceful protest. But because these were portrayed as like the loonies are in the streets protesting and then, so then they didn't want to portray the police as doing the wrong thing in that instance. And it just. So, so you're seeing, depending on what media channel it is and, and what their political alignments are, you might see more or less Coverage of what the police did or didn't, you know, do or whatever. Wow. [01:43:06] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [01:43:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:08] Speaker A: So you're seeing both sides and you can, you know, you get to see. You didn't really talk to any police because they don't engage. But you're getting to hear the stories of people that were in there that were just, you know, they had their reason for doing what they were doing, and there was, you know, whatever you think of that time, they were. They were humans, as are the police as well. Everyone says human beings with a story to tell and they have families to go home to and. Yeah. So once you start to hear the stories, you become sympathetic and that kind of. But then he's also. You sort of become. You can become biased in as well. You kind of get, oh, okay, they're sympathetics. I'm going to get more of what's happening to these guys. Trying. [01:43:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:43:44] Speaker B: The underdog. I need to. [01:43:45] Speaker C: Because at the end of the day, you're. You're human, too. You're just pointing. You're just looking and pointing your camera where it. [01:43:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:52] Speaker C: It concerns you or interests you or bothers you or whatever it may be. It's. And it's. And I think it's hard. I mean, I think, you know, humans are all about bias. That's. That's how our brains function. We weigh up two sides in most situations. And do I run the red light, do I run the orange light, or do I stop? You know, we're constantly applying bias to what we do, but, yeah, I think it's. It's fascinating. Now, there is a. There is a conversation that we need to have. We tried to start this conversation before we went live and. Justin. [01:44:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:44:24] Speaker C: Lucas, you want to ask. Ask the question again. [01:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:27] Speaker C: Advice. [01:44:28] Speaker A: Well, I. I was. I've been looking and researching compact, compact pro digital cameras that I can put in my pocket. [01:44:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:44:38] Speaker A: And take with me that is small and I can whip out. I've been researching and having a look at a bunch, but I thought I'd ask you guys because you. This might be your word a little bit more than it's mine and doing gear reviews and all that sort of stuff. What's a good. Good professional compact camera, potentially fixed lens that I can put in my. My pocket and get awesome shots with. [01:45:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Now, I'm a Fujifilm fanboy, so you'll have to forgive me. My first recommendation would be the Fujifilm X100. Either the 4, 5, or 6. [01:45:14] Speaker A: Yep. [01:45:15] Speaker C: The 5 and 6. Especially good because they've got the 40 megapixel sensor. The 6 has IBIS. It has the latest X processor, 5 HR Pro, I think processor. It's quick, it's fast, it's compact, it's discreet. It's a great street photography camera too. But it is. No, it's a fixed lens. Fixed 23F2. [01:45:37] Speaker A: Okay. [01:45:38] Speaker C: And I think at version 5 they upgraded the lens a bit. They made it a bit faster on the focus performance. It's a leaf shutter because it's fixed. That. That would be kind of pro grade output. The next step up from a Fujifilm perspective is the medium format or the larger format version of the X100 which is. You can just watch it back later is the, the. What is it? [01:46:04] Speaker B: It. [01:46:04] Speaker C: The, the GF100, GFX100RF. So it's basically, it's, it's a Fuji X100 but it's a medium format or larger format. [01:46:14] Speaker B: But that gets me to the point, I was going to say that gives me the question of. Basically the first question is how big is your pocket? Because that, that can, yeah. Sway it a little bit as to how, you know, are we talking proper pocketable, like back of the jeans pants pocketable? Yeah, we're like an overcoat. [01:46:31] Speaker A: Great. Yeah, yeah. I was looking at some like the Sony RX100 and like they're like, they're little, they're small and you know, Justin's got one on the shelf maybe if. [01:46:45] Speaker C: You'Re happy with a fixed focal distance. [01:46:47] Speaker A: Not really. [01:46:49] Speaker C: Okay. [01:46:49] Speaker A: So yeah, happy to make that compromise though. Yeah. Yeah. And what about the Canon, the GX7? Oh yeah, there you go. [01:46:59] Speaker C: Yeah. And Lucinda's actually dropped that in the, in the comments saying the Mark 3. [01:47:03] Speaker A: Good. [01:47:04] Speaker C: Especially if you like the Canon. If you like the Canon ecosystem then definitely go with that. I mean it's very different to shooting with the 5D but yeah, you know, you get the color science of Canon. [01:47:15] Speaker B: The other, the 1 inch sensors though, I was just going to say. So those, the RX100 and you know, the G7X3 that you're talking 1 inch sensors which is, which is good quality but you are talking a smaller sensor which is very different to like the X100 look of an actual APS C sensor. [01:47:36] Speaker C: The best choice that I would. Sorry, mate. The, the ultimate option I think would be the Ricoh GR. Either the 3 or the new 4 when it finally comes out. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the three is, the three is a gorgeous camera. It's. It's you know, I mean every camera has its. Has its quirks, but it is a great little truly pocketable point and shoot with great color science and you know, and it's, it's a clever little camera. And the four is just being announced a couple of months ago and as we were talking at the start of the show before we went live, you know, they're not quite in the street yet, but they're, you know, literally days or weeks away. But yeah, but even if you picked up a GR3, you know, you'd get. [01:48:21] Speaker A: Get. [01:48:21] Speaker C: They're still expensive and they're hard to find new even. You know, Rico have had stock problems for a couple of years now and. And there's like five different versions of the, of the. No, maybe seven different versions of the GR3. Right. Because there's two different LE. Two different lens, fixed lens focal distances. There's ones with different filters and then there's some special diary and street and pocket editions and things like that. But for a truly pocketable, I would certainly look into that. [01:48:56] Speaker B: What's your favorite focal length? Like if you were fixed, you know, if you could just design your own point and shoot, what. What would it be? [01:49:06] Speaker A: You're asking me? Yeah, yeah. [01:49:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:10] Speaker A: That's a really good. Yeah. I would go from something. Something wide with a decent zoom. I like, I really like fixed. I like fixed wide angles as well from anything like a 24 or 28 or some of the translators around that. [01:49:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:26] Speaker A: So not, not too distorty but wide enough to get, get the stuff in. I do like having a little bit of the zoom though. But I do like. [01:49:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:49:34] Speaker A: And something. But I think for me low light is the really something that works well in low light. So something that has a decent aperture and the sensor that's going to do that. I have, I'm yet to find anything that works really well in low light and I'm so used to the full frame sensors that do work well in low light because that's my, that's my world most of the time is it's zero to no light. So having something that works in low light is. Yeah, I know. [01:50:01] Speaker B: I've got bad news for you. But there is one camera that will do that. Yeah, the Leica Q3. It's not, it's not pocketable though, because it's not. You know that the lens sticks out quite a ways. It's another level again from the X100 in terms of the lens size, but it's f 1.7 28 mil. But it's actually slightly wider than 28 mil. It's closer to 26, so it's got a nice wide field of view and it's full frame sensor that you can shoot in super low light. But it's a long. Obviously it's insanely expensive as well and it's just a long way from being actually pocketable. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's not pocketable but small enough. [01:50:44] Speaker A: To just be discreet, I guess. Well, depending on. [01:50:48] Speaker B: Put some tape over that red dot and yeah, it's quite discreet. [01:50:53] Speaker C: The other option was something smaller like a Fuji XM5 or the new XE5 new camera and just with a compact, a compact prime on it. [01:51:04] Speaker B: But again, well, and yeah, but I mean not pocketable. [01:51:08] Speaker C: So. [01:51:08] Speaker B: So maybe going from a GR. Like a GR. The GR4 is probably the best bet in terms of like it is actually pocketable. The, the lens retracts. They're quite slim. They weigh 250 grams. It's, it is pocketable. So I feel like Greg's on the money with that. It's either that or, or maybe one of these one in one inch sensor cameras if you decide you want, you know, a zoom. [01:51:31] Speaker C: But otherwise. [01:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah, once you go to the X100 it's not pocketable. Like it's not much of a step to go to that XE5 with a pancake lens. But then you can, you can invest in a little zoom too which makes it then not pocketable but still discreet. And you can decide, hang on, am I going to go rock out with a pancake 28 mil lens or put my zoom in? [01:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That flexibility there is great. I do like the X100 size. It's a good size. It's, it's a, you need a big pocket but it's still discreet and it's. [01:52:05] Speaker C: A fun camera to shoot with. [01:52:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. I was using one just the other day. Yeah. [01:52:09] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like, it's like picking up an old 35 mil film camera. You know, it just, it just has that feel to it and that, it makes you think differently about how you're photographed too because there are some limitations. [01:52:20] Speaker B: And the image quality won't leave you wanting whereas it, it might on a 1 inch sensor. Like those 1 inch sensor, sort of smaller cameras are great for what they are but you're going to look at them compared to full frame images and know what you shot it on. Whereas I think the X100, you could certainly blur those lines with image quality because it's a pretty epic sensor. So. [01:52:43] Speaker A: I don't know. Yeah, you have to. I love the likers. I. I was just thinking about that because I. I do some work with the film company and one of the guys there, he has a. He has a Leica just on him and he leaves it lying around all the time and just. It's the reporter. What is it? The camo green one. [01:53:07] Speaker C: Wow. [01:53:07] Speaker B: Well, that's easy to lose. They just blend right in. [01:53:10] Speaker A: Chris just told him this. I've told him. I've given him two warnings. So. [01:53:14] Speaker B: Yeah, man, they look good. They look so good. [01:53:19] Speaker A: Yeah, they're really nice. Cameron. I really am envious of that one. It's a good size too. Yeah. [01:53:23] Speaker B: Well that seems like your cheapest and best option. [01:53:25] Speaker A: Really. [01:53:25] Speaker B: If we weigh up all of the options is just a pinch his. Yeah, yeah. [01:53:30] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. So Matt, if you're listening, look out. [01:53:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:53:32] Speaker A: Watch out. [01:53:33] Speaker B: Even Lucinda agrees. Just pocket it. Lucinda. Also, I didn't realize this girls jeans don't have pockets. Where do you put your stuff? [01:53:42] Speaker A: They don't. Yeah. [01:53:43] Speaker C: Often they're just. [01:53:44] Speaker A: They're just like. [01:53:44] Speaker C: If you look at jeans, they're just stitching. They can't actually put anything in them because apparently girls don't need to carry stuff according to the fashion industry. Yeah, it's a real. It's a real issue. Really? Yep. [01:53:53] Speaker A: Faux. [01:53:54] Speaker B: Faux pockets. [01:53:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [01:53:56] Speaker B: I had no idea. [01:53:57] Speaker A: There you go. Mind blown. [01:54:02] Speaker B: Should we have a look at some of your insane live music images before we let you go? Where should we start? Instagram website. I want to see you some stories. Tell us about some of the. Or direct me to like just some of the most coolest moments. [01:54:26] Speaker A: Have you got the flaming lips on there? If you keep going down the flaming lips, they're always. Yeah, there. That one there. Yep. [01:54:33] Speaker C: Just. [01:54:34] Speaker A: I'm pointing at you guys. To the guy with the gray curly hair. [01:54:41] Speaker B: This guy? [01:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the one. And then if you just go through to the next, as you can see he's wearing a harness there. This is their Yimi and Yimi battles the Pink Robots tour. That was just. I think. Was that this year or the last year? Can't remember. Big inflatable robots. If you keep scrolling, keep scrolling through that. You can. [01:55:02] Speaker B: Oh wow. [01:55:04] Speaker A: That's. That's him standing there in between the two inflatable robots. And if you keep going to the right, he has these confetti guns where he was shooting big inflatable balls that were bouncing around the room. I've shot the flaming lips A couple of times. And they're. They're fun. I shot them once at Hamer Hall. This one was at. This one's at Festival hall. And it's. I haven't been in a war zone to photograph, but I think this is the closest thing to being in a war zone. Oh, wow. [01:55:34] Speaker C: That's crazy. [01:55:36] Speaker A: Have they have the all. There's so much going on. Those big inflatable robots in this one just started inflating in the first song. They didn't know they were there because they were just obviously just flat on the floor and they just started inflating. He's got, you know, got lasers, you got. You got confetti going on. You got these pink balls. Towards the end of the show, the lead singer gets inside a big inflatable ball. You like those big zor balls? [01:55:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:55:58] Speaker A: He gets inside one of those and goes out onto the crowd with his mic inside and bouncing and seeing. I don't know how he does it. And he's got a harness on there, so he does all sorts of other stuff. And that's. They're insane shows and there's always a heck of a lot going on and you get whacked in the head with all sorts of objects flying around, but they're fun, so. [01:56:19] Speaker B: Oh, there was actually a question here earlier that I missed. Where is it, where is it, where is it? Where is it from? David Mascara. Question for Lucas. Are you working for a magazine or do you get access as an independent photographer? How does that work? [01:56:34] Speaker A: Both, Both. I shoot for a handful of publications and sometimes as an independent photographer, depending on the arrangement. If you've been hired to. Or if you have relationship. Yeah. So generally you need access either way these days. Mostly. Not always, but mostly. Particularly if you're doing big touring bands that are coming through town. You need access to that. All these ones there, the Schizophonics there. If you go back. [01:57:01] Speaker C: Back. [01:57:01] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's. [01:57:02] Speaker B: Which one? [01:57:03] Speaker A: Yep. That one there. Left, Left. Yeah. [01:57:07] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know who. Any of these. [01:57:08] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. That one there. Yep. That's the Schizophonics that was playing. That was at the tote. So this was a really good show. And, you know, at the Toad Hotel, if you've ever been, there's a tiny. [01:57:18] Speaker B: Little pub I've played there. [01:57:20] Speaker A: Oh, have you? Yeah, yeah. Love the tote. And they were just a really. They're a wild band. And he just doesn't stop moving. The lead singer, guitarist, he's a. He's a bit of an Energizer Bunny. He just runs and runs and jumps. And people were putting their glasses down onto the stage and he would be removing them because I'm going to break that and cut myself or cut you. So anytime there's a glass on, he would remove it. He's very, very particular. But they're just a husband and wife team and the drummer and the guitarist, their husband and wife, I believe. And they just tour around and make for a really fun stuff to shoot. You can. That was a good show. You could shoot all night there. We weren't. There was no restrictions. They're a really good band, really friendly bunch of people. And that was. That was just a fun, fun shoot. [01:58:07] Speaker B: Very nice. [01:58:09] Speaker C: And so question for you, Lucas. When you are granted access to go to a concert, is there like an agency that does that, that organizes all that for the photographers, or is that up to you to actually work with the touring company? Or is it the venue? Where does that all begin? [01:58:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird old world. And it's a little bit. It's lots of power struggles and everyone wanting to have their size and stuff. But it's generally, it's done through publications. I don't deal with it too much, thankfully, Again, depending on the show. Sometimes I do deal directly with label managers or PR agents, but generally it's. It's all through the publication. And so they organize all that. They. They will tell you what the restrictions are or if they are, or if they aren't, they'll relay them to you. And then hopefully that's. That translates to when you turn up at the venue and people on the door, people on the box office, security and the photo pit all get that same message about, you know, how many songs you can shoot. Yeah, all that sort of stuff. And if there's any restrictions on flash and generally you can't shoot flash too much these days. Sometimes you can. Yeah. So there's lots of challenges around that. Last night we're shooting in Festival hall, it was the first four songs instead of the first three songs. And I'm going. Hopefully that's translating to security. So it doesn't always be the case. [01:59:33] Speaker B: They just try and boot you out after three, because that's the standard. [01:59:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't always get communicated down the line, but generally it all works really well. But sometimes you turn up and it hasn't been communicated and there's nothing you can do about it. Sometimes. Sometimes you can call people at the last minutes, but yeah, so it's all done through them and it's all funny, some of the restrictions. I shot the Oils on their last tour and they were. They go, you can only shoot songs 12, 13 and 14. We're in the middle of the set. They were doing their lengthy, lengthy sets at that point. And as they were winding up and so we're. And they're going, it's going to be. I know the oil stuff pretty well. And they're going, it's going to be this song, this song and this song. And I'm going, ah. So we're trying to remember and trying to count songs. And so that was a bit of a challenge. Some songs, some bands will do the last three songs, some of them will let you shoot all night, you know, so there's all, all sorts of stuff. [02:00:28] Speaker C: Yeah, lots to coordinate and work with. [02:00:30] Speaker B: What, what's. What's the deal with. So say you take photos for a bigger band. I'm trying to find one. [02:00:38] Speaker A: Sorry. [02:00:39] Speaker B: Oh, no, I was just gonna say I was gonna try and find one for an example, but if there's any, any. You can directly just go down. [02:00:45] Speaker A: If you just go. Keep going down. Yeah, that guy in the hat there. Oh, go back up. Sorry. In. Keep going up on the far left to give him the lap. Yeah, that one. That's the, that's the Brian Jonestown Massacre. I don't know if you guys. Did you hear about their last show they did here in Melbourne? No, no, you may not have. And this was, this was. They were playing at the Forum and it was a really good show until it all went a bit pear shaped. The, the singer, before they started, we were just waiting in the pit. There was me and a couple of other photographers there. This guy wanders down into the pit and ended up being the lead singer. And he was coming along, shaking everyone's hand and introducing himself to all the photographers in the pit. Quite. How would you say? Not himself affected by some chemicals, I would say. But he was there introducing himself and again that was. And then he gets on stage and then he started berating the. The, the guitarist or the drummer, I think it was. Oh, so they're playing and he's just, he's just really being nasty to him. And then they, then they started fighting on stage. And these shots were just before this all happened. They started. He dropped his guitar, went over, started whacking the guitar player. The guitar player was hitting him with his guitar. All it, it all went pear shaped. This big brawl. Security on stage. I didn't realize at the Forum there's a big curtain, like almost a semi rigid curtain that comes down, that came down. People really. Beers are getting thrown and it all. All went really pear shaped, unfortunately for that show. So these shots I was able to get before that all happened, they. They composed themselves enough to get half a dozen songs done before. Yeah. So, yeah, if you know that particular band, it's not, not that's unusual. Yeah, not unusual, unfortunately. Anyway. Yeah. [02:02:40] Speaker B: Did you, did you see it? [02:02:42] Speaker A: The, the. [02:02:42] Speaker B: Did you see the fight or did you just see the stories? [02:02:45] Speaker A: No, that was all I was there. Yeah. Yeah, it was all there. And you can see, you can go and you can go and see it on YouTube. You can go and Google it. [02:02:51] Speaker B: Someone. Yeah, there's always someone. [02:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, there's, you know, there's cameras everywhere, which is really. They're a really great band who I was a fan, I still are a fan of and I just. It was a little bit disappointed. Disappointing and. [02:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:02] Speaker A: Anyway, anyway, so there's all those sorts of stories. So. [02:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's the hard thing is they're just people and they're often some of the wildest, most creative people that have possibly been working to the maybe beyond their point. Like you say, there could be some substance stuff. There's so much to it. Yeah. And they're on stage so often that maybe it's not always easy to keep it in the, in the background. You know, sometimes it goes public. [02:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. They've been on tour. They've done a long tour. They're from the stage, so they're a long way from home. And yeah, you know, there's lots of challenges. [02:03:36] Speaker B: Maybe someone slept with someone else's girl. Who knows what happened. [02:03:40] Speaker A: I'm sure that's the start of many, many a fight. [02:03:45] Speaker B: What was I gonna say? Lucinda had a question here. What's the weirdest rules you've had in a pit? [02:03:54] Speaker A: I'm sure Lucinda's got some weirder ones. That's a very good Brian Adams. You can only photograph. Maybe I shouldn't have said his name. There's a certain guitarist, singer, songwriter from the states. [02:04:06] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure he watches this podcast. [02:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, you can only. You can only photograph him from the left side. [02:04:14] Speaker B: Really? [02:04:15] Speaker C: Well, it's his good side. [02:04:18] Speaker A: Well, you would assume so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was, that was a weird one. That was weird. [02:04:23] Speaker B: I hope, I hope he does that just to. With photographers. He doesn't, he does not care. But he's just like. Starts thinking of weirder and weirder to make them do. And just so he can be singing and watching you all. And then he just purposely just when he gets set up, he walks across the other side of the stage. Everyone's like, oh. And you scuttle across like. Like crabs. Trying to only stay on one side. [02:04:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'm sure all this stuff is. It's so much of it is just that it's just a mess with boredom. Yeah, boredom. I'm trying to think of any other weird that was. That was a weird one. The Red Hot. The Red Hot Chili Peppers was. You had. You got ushered in. There was a pit shoot, which I thought it might not have been, but it was as a pit shoot. And you had a little square that was taped off, which you had to stand in and photograph the whole of your allotted time from that one spot. Not deviating from that. And there was a selection. There's a selection of little tape squares across the front. And so there was a bunch of photographers of that. So you had to choose wisely. Your square. [02:05:25] Speaker B: And that's what you got. [02:05:27] Speaker A: That's what you got. You can't move. That's not unusual. That's. That's kind of. I know that. I know. Queens of the Stone Age were like that and a few others that had you. You're allotted spot and you can't move. Wow. [02:05:38] Speaker B: They really. They really don't care about the art of photography, do they? [02:05:44] Speaker C: No. [02:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And I. I kind of get it to some point. It's annoying and it's frustrating, but it kind of go. They got their own photographers. They have their two guys that. Girls that tour with them. And often. [02:05:57] Speaker B: So they see the local people as just a kind of an annoyance. Not an annoyance. [02:06:03] Speaker A: I can't talk sometimes. Yeah, yeah. [02:06:05] Speaker B: It's like they get in the way. And we'll get our proper photography from our tour photographer or whatever. We don't want those people getting in there in the way. [02:06:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Often. Often lighting guys will give you the. The pretty average light scenes for the first three songs. Like it'll be all red. And then all of a sudden. [02:06:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:21] Speaker A: The fourth song comes on when you have to exit the pit and then you have this amazing light show happen that's happened a bunch of times. What's going on here? Was that the way it's. But anyway, it's a good challenge. I love a good challenge like that. So I'm just going, okay, bring it on and see what we can get out of it. Yeah, I Often. [02:06:37] Speaker C: I often think that you guys, you know, obviously, having spoken to Lucinda and Shane about this craft of yours, this genre of live music photography, I. I'm. I'm thoroughly impressed. I think it's probably one of the trickiest genres to shoot because there's so much going on and so much limitation and, you know, challenges that most photographers try to avoid, like lack of lighting, you know, pyrotechnics, you know, what do they call the ring of death that Shane is often. Oh, yeah, like a mosh pit. [02:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah. But they do this. [02:07:10] Speaker C: This mad running circle thing. [02:07:12] Speaker A: You can't get out and. [02:07:14] Speaker C: And Shane's just, you know, and that's. To his back, like, you know, this crazy thing going on behind you, and you're trying to focus on an artist in front of you and. Yeah, yeah, I think it's amazing. I think it's really. It's a really clever genre, and I think you guys should be. Should be recognized more for what it is that you actually achieved, because those conditions are tough. [02:07:32] Speaker A: It is. That reminds me of the. There was a festival called Giz Fest, which was by. Run by King Gizzard and Lizard Wizard. They. They have their own label, and they have a whole lot of bands on that label, so they would run their own festival and they would do that at the showgrounds. It's. Unfortunately, it's no longer running, I. I don't think. But they had Amel on the sniffers there very early on in their career, and I hadn't photographed them before. And one of the other photographers that was there had, and he said if. If Amy, the lead singer, if she takes a swig of beer, get out of the way. And I'm going, yeah, okay, whatever. Sure enough, she takes a swiggy beer and then she just spits it all over everyone and anyone that's in. And if you've seen Emily and Snippers, you can't. That would fit. That fits the genre. And so that I learned the hard way with that. I actually have a photo. A friend was in the crowd and she. She took a photo at that same moment as I was taking. So I'm taking the photo of Amy spinning the stuff out. She's taking a photo of me taking the photo of Amy spinning the stuff out. So it was really good. And she didn't realize that she saw my photo and she goes, I got this photo. That's serendipitous kind of thing. But yeah, yeah. Learned the hard way with that. That. That particular one wouldn't. [02:08:49] Speaker B: That Be the shot, though. That's what I would be running. Yeah, I would. I would want to be in there. And then you just whip your filter off or swap lenses or whatever because you're like, well, that's done. But yeah, that's the shot. Like, get in there. [02:09:00] Speaker A: That's it. Go hard. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. [02:09:03] Speaker B: But, yeah, being covered in beer for the rest of the night's probably not ideal, but it's all part of the. It's all part of the show. [02:09:09] Speaker A: That's it. Yeah, yeah. [02:09:14] Speaker B: What else did I say here? Oh, yeah. Wookie says the Nova twins wouldn't allow photography of the guitar effects boards. [02:09:19] Speaker A: Now, that's like. [02:09:20] Speaker B: I mean, I could imagine if you're one of the world's greatest most secretive guitarists, but I mean, like, come on. It's not that we're past that now. The Internet exists. Every guitarist knows what every other guitarist is using on their board. It's not. It's not a secret. [02:09:38] Speaker A: That's right. [02:09:38] Speaker B: Calm down. And there's. There's more famous. You know, it's like everyone always tried to sneak photos of Adam Jones's set up from tool, you know, amps and pedal boards and all that sort of stuff because it was this great tone mystery. Right. But yeah, that's all. We're sort of. We're in the information age now. [02:09:57] Speaker C: It's all out well and truly. [02:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. I'm sure this ender would have some. Some stories as well about those strange. [02:10:08] Speaker B: We should have just got Lucinda on to do the. The show to just. [02:10:12] Speaker C: We could have just in. [02:10:13] Speaker B: We could have just chilled. Greg, is there an artist on your bucket list to shoot? [02:10:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm just trying to think off the top of my head a lot of. I like a lot of the old blues guys who, unfortunately, a lot of them have passed away now and who don't tour here anymore. This kind of. These artists that have been so influential in rock and roll and who started, you know, the blues really started it all as far as music goes. As far as rock and roll goes. So the guys like. Like I was saying, B.B. king before, buddy Guy still comes out here recently. A lot of them have now passed away, unfortunately. So I'm just trying to think who. I didn't get to do Metallica this time. I'd like to do them. I think that would be fun. But I'd like to do them in a pit shoot. Yeah, like everyone would. [02:11:09] Speaker B: I assume that's one of Those ones where it's like get. You know. Yeah. You and. And 600 other photographers. [02:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:17] Speaker B: Are all like me and then I assume it's pretty limited. [02:11:20] Speaker A: And yeah, these are the ones that just come here. I would have liked, like to have done acdc, however, my caveat next to that is I would have liked to have done AC DC, but probably in about 1978 or 9. [02:11:34] Speaker C: Okay. [02:11:36] Speaker A: With the original members anyway. That's just my. That's just my thing. So. Yeah, maybe some of those big bands, but there's so many great local acts around the fun issue as well. Yeah, yeah, that's true. [02:11:48] Speaker B: Have you. Have you spent much time, like, have you traveled to the US and been to like Nashville and. And Memphis and stuff like that? I always. I've blown away. So I've been to Nashville, Memphis and. And Austin and it. It is shocking to me that I can walk into almost any venue on any random Tuesday and see musicians of a caliber that I just. You just struggle to come across in Australia and obviously just. Because those are just. Just meccas of music production and where you build your career and all that sort of stuff. So it's drawing talent in from all over the place. Yeah, it's insane. [02:12:32] Speaker A: The. I love that part of the state so much. The south particularly. I. I did. I shot Jazz Fest in New Orleans a couple of years back and Jazz Fest goes across two weekends and then in between those two weekends you have a whole lot of just stuff happening in. In the French Quarter and all throughout New Orleans. And that's an amazing. That's a really amazing festival to shoot. That's all depends on what you like shooting. But that's. That's really. That was fun. That was fun. [02:13:04] Speaker B: Did a publication from Australia help you arrange the access there or is that how that worked? Yeah. Okay. [02:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:11] Speaker B: So you were heading over with it with it predetermined that you'd be to. Able. Able to shoot and. [02:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yep, they were really cool though. Otherwise they kind of go. And if you don't get access, still come and shoot anyway. As in, you can just shoot from the crowd if you want to. Anyway, if you don't get access, you know, all that sort of stuff, you can use the media tent and all that sort of stuff. And that's just. That was just a really cool environment to be in and sort of all through the south there. Nashville is such a really interesting town as well. Memphis is a really interesting town. I love that. Memphis was a bit of a strange and it felt a little bit dead to me. But there was. That's a beautiful. There's a lot of history there. And. But Nashville's. Nashville. [02:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, all that. [02:13:46] Speaker A: All that south there. I actually did the trip from New Orleans up Highway 61. So all the old blues guys used to travel from the south would go up Highway 61 up to Chicago. Right. So transit through there. You know, Bob Dylan's got an album called Highway 61. And there's all the little juke joints along the way. And you can pull into these little juke joints and it's a little bit weird as a white guy, and I'm really white, to go into these juke joints where they have. Have. You know, you stand out like a sore thumb, but they're just beautiful. And there's all this unreal music and these guys who are unreal, who you've never heard of before, they've been playing for 50 years. And. [02:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what was insane to. Is that level of talent just at just the most random places. Not at. Not at the big popular. I mean, the big popular places obviously had, you know, like I went to BB King's Blues Club and all these touristies. More. More touristy kind of places. And they've got great music. But then you just walk into some. Just side street bar and there's. Went to one in Austin. There was like the band was playing just in a tiny little sort of outdoor stage and the singer was just walking around the crowd just kind of having a good time to himself. And it was one of the best bands I've ever seen in my life. I have no idea what they were called. I just. I sat there and just. Just watched them for like two hours. It was insane. And it was just free. Like it was just a free. You just a pub. [02:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And Austin's such a music town as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:15:10] Speaker B: So cool. [02:15:11] Speaker A: Beautiful part of the world. Yeah, it is. [02:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I was. I was interested to know if you'd. So. So you've had the pleasure of traveling and shooting professionally in some of those locations. That's amazing. [02:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah, only. Only down in New Orleans. And I obviously get the camera with me all the time, but I'd like to go back there. I'd like. I want to do that again. It's just, it's. It's a big expense, but, you know, hey, it's only money, all right. [02:15:34] Speaker B: It's just the dollar and everything at the moment. It is like a hamburger over there is like 50 Australian dollars now. It's. It's pretty painful. [02:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And you've got to be careful on around those places. But I. Yeah, like I said, I love New Orleans and Baton Rouge and all the way down. All that swamp country down there. It's just awesome. I think I could live there, but I haven't lived there, so put an asterisk next to that. But as far as music goes and the music history and so much of what we listen to is all birthed there. And it's just so photogenic everywhere you go. I reckon so. Yeah. Yeah. [02:16:09] Speaker B: David Mascara says Jessica Lange put out a photo book called highway. Highway 61. [02:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:14] Speaker B: Interesting. [02:16:14] Speaker A: You love her work? Love her work, yeah. Absolutely. All that sort of Americana type stuff is great. Yeah. Very cool. [02:16:25] Speaker B: What else? [02:16:28] Speaker C: Well, I think it's all. We've already been going for 2 hours and 15 minutes. [02:16:32] Speaker B: Holy moly. [02:16:33] Speaker C: But there's a couple of essential things that we like to always ask a guest. You want to ask the. [02:16:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [02:16:39] Speaker C: The question. [02:16:41] Speaker B: End of the world, zombies taken over. You're at a shoot, you're at a. You're at. You're at a giant festival. All the people are zombies. Metallica are now zombies. And you don't have time to grab your backpack because they wouldn't let you in with your whole backpack. You've only got time to grab one camera and one lens. Could be from any time in your life. Or a camera you don't even have yet. What would you grab to photograph the end of the world? [02:17:07] Speaker A: Oh, wow. I love my 70 to 200. As long as it's not too close. Yeah. [02:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:17:15] Speaker C: Well, that'll be good one. Too close. Yeah. [02:17:17] Speaker B: You don't want it. [02:17:18] Speaker A: I've actually done a course in how to support survive the zombie apocalypse. You actually can do a course. A friend and I did this, so I'm pretty. [02:17:26] Speaker B: How do you do this course? Where is this course? I want to do it. [02:17:29] Speaker A: I knew you're going to ask me that. I can't remember. Off the table. I have the certificate to prove that I've actually done it. So you can actually do it. So it goes through. It's. It's full on serious course and you can do it. You come and get an accreditation. It's only short. It's only like six weeks or something like that. And what you can get, you get a certificate and it tells you anyway, I digress. So I am prepared. [02:17:50] Speaker B: And was. Okay. Was there any one thing you learned in that course that you were like, okay, I'm. This is useful information. I'm actually Going to remember this. This is good. [02:18:01] Speaker A: Yeah. You have to. You have to go for the brain if you're going to kill a zombie. [02:18:05] Speaker C: Okay. [02:18:07] Speaker A: Which maybe, maybe that's already common knowledge, but I learned that. And, yeah, so, yeah, gotta kill a brain or the head. [02:18:16] Speaker C: And someone's taking money off running a course. [02:18:18] Speaker B: Well, I've just googled it. I've just googled it and it's come up with a Flinders University handbook, Zombie Apocalypse. I'm like, I don't know what. [02:18:28] Speaker A: This sounds familiar. It was a long time ago that I did. [02:18:30] Speaker B: It says, unit value 4.5. Adelaide has been invaded by zombies and most of the population is. I don't know if it's just like a. It's for a different course and they've just used it as a thing. [02:18:42] Speaker A: This was an American one that I did. [02:18:44] Speaker B: Okay. [02:18:45] Speaker A: Maybe they're based it on that, but wow. It was at the height of when the Walking Dead was out and that was. Yeah. Anyway, that's an idea for a laugh. [02:18:55] Speaker B: You're the first guest who's actually ever done a course on that. That's amazing. [02:18:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you put that on your resume? [02:19:01] Speaker A: No, only. Only by request if you want that one. Probably the first guest at the. [02:19:05] Speaker B: The last guest, too, possibly, until I find it and I do it. [02:19:09] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah, absolutely. [02:19:12] Speaker B: Anything else we have to find out, Greg, before we go? [02:19:17] Speaker C: No, I think we're good. I think we've covered. I think we've covered most of it and I do like the 70 to 200, especially on an EF mount because that's a heavy lens. You could use it as you could go for the brain. I think it's. I think it's a fair call for that. And your 5D, I mean, you can, you know, you can replace those pretty. [02:19:35] Speaker A: Quick even if that's right. [02:19:37] Speaker B: I have. I have one question before we go. So you obviously love black and white. [02:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:44] Speaker B: Based on your Instagram. [02:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:47] Speaker B: Most of what you post is black and white. If there's color, it's usually hidden by a black and white photo first. Yeah, true. I love the way that you process your black and whites. I love the contrast. I think it's. That looks fantastic. How are you processing them? What. What's your workflow for getting these black and white times that look. [02:20:05] Speaker A: That's interesting. It's a really interesting question. I think that it stems from my learning how to do black and white prints. You know, actual black and white prints back in the dark room back in the day when my lecturer, who I mentioned Susan, she would go, you need to get a true black. You need to get a true white. And that's kind of stuck with me. And, you know, that's just a subjective thing. So always try and go, is there a true black and is there a true white? So, like, trying to make sure that I know you're going to show some shots now. Hopefully I'm doing. [02:20:36] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That's what I think. I think I noticed that it was so punchy and so much contrast. Because you are finding that black point. [02:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So that was something that's always stuck with me with from that. So the processing is. That's my rule of thumb. So it's pretty. A pretty simple process. Just converting to black and white and then just use your crushing the blacks pretty hard and maybe a little bit of clarity in there and sometimes bringing the highlights down because, you know, can blow the highlights out a little bit then as well. But, yeah, that's pretty simple. Pretty simple. There's no real secret to it. So that's just my rule of thumb and that's just a creative choice. Everyone's different on those sorts of things. But, yeah, just trying to get things so they're not too muddy, I guess. I like a lot of clarity and definition from the tones. Yeah. [02:21:27] Speaker C: Yep. [02:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:21:29] Speaker C: Especially if you've got a busy scene. Yeah, yeah. [02:21:32] Speaker A: Like that one. [02:21:33] Speaker B: Exactly. Processing in Lightroom usually, or. [02:21:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much all the time. Lightroom and Lightroom. Maybe a little bit of Photoshop, but not much because Photoshop hurts my head after a while. Lightroom. I just love the fact that Lightroom's been designed for photographers and, you know, it's got its limitations, but it's really good for processing this sort of stuff and batch processing and cataloging, and it's just easy and it makes sense to me. And you don't have to do a massive degree in how to use it. Unlike Photoshop. [02:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's intuitive. [02:22:08] Speaker A: It is. Yeah, it is intuitive. It feels like I'm just using a camera at some point to just keep processing stuff. So. Yeah. So you now love black and white. I think that's where it stems from. Yeah, I love it. [02:22:21] Speaker B: Well, we've barely even scratched the surface of your catalog of live music and protest and everything else images that you do. So if people want to see more, they should go to Lucas Packet Photography separated by dots. So at Lucas Packet Photography at Instagram or www.lucaspacketphotography.com, both of which will be linked in the show notes below. Anywhere else people should, should keep an eye on your stuff. [02:22:48] Speaker A: That's, that's probably the best places. I do shoot for a bunch of publications but they're probably the, the best ones to go to. I try and put my stuff up my Insta as well. There is a Facebook page as well. If people still use Facebook, it's on there as well. [02:23:02] Speaker B: So yeah, they'll find you. [02:23:04] Speaker A: Yep. [02:23:06] Speaker B: Amazing. [02:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Cool. [02:23:08] Speaker C: Very cool. Well, look on that note, Lucas, thank you so much for sharing a couple of hours of your time and talking through your fascinating career. And I just, I think what stands out for me is that despite there being a diversity of genres, you have a very defined style that you apply to all of your images and compositions especially. And I think that's, that's a true testament to the skill that you carry with you when you can shoot anything from a concert to a portrait to a protest. And there is a very defined style in the way in which you tell stories. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. It's been inspirational for me. I'm always consider myself an aspiring street documentary photographer and there's always lots to learn from our peers. So thank you very much for sharing all of our different. Thanks. [02:23:58] Speaker A: Thank you, Greg. Thank you. Justin's really been great. It's great. Just chat with like minded people. That's fun. [02:24:03] Speaker C: That's what we do. [02:24:04] Speaker B: That's why we do. [02:24:04] Speaker C: We love it. [02:24:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:24:06] Speaker C: But, but look on that note everybody, this has been the Camera Life podcast. It has been episode 135. It's the 20th of November and this has been brought to you by Lucky straps. Head to Luckystraps.com we have a sale going, although it's probably over now. [02:24:21] Speaker B: Look, I'll leave it running for another hour so if you. It's not too late. Late. Well, 45 minutes you'll be right. [02:24:26] Speaker C: Yeah, 45 minutes. Get in there. But, but yeah. Thanks once again guys and thank you to everyone in the chat. We're going to roll credit and we're gonna, we're gonna say goodbye to some folks. But thanks again, Lucas. [02:24:39] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:24:40] Speaker B: Thanks Lucas. [02:24:41] Speaker A: Thanks. [02:24:41] Speaker B: Shane Henderson. Wookie. Very cool. [02:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:24:45] Speaker B: David Mascara, always promoting the Nick Ons. Always. He does great work with them. But we're canon people here. Robert Varner, good to see you. Philip Johnson. Lucinda, of course. Who else was around today? I've got to go. Go way back. [02:24:59] Speaker C: Oh, Paul. [02:25:00] Speaker B: He had to run early. I think Lisa Leach had to go early. Rodney Nicholson was here. Everybody was here. It was a great day and we'll catch you all on the next one. [02:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:25:10] Speaker C: See you guys. Be safe. [02:25:12] Speaker A: Thank you. Bye. Bye.