EP133 Harriet Tarbuck | Co-Founder & Creative Director of Photo Collective

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Crank it, boss. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Snapping frames chasing light shadows dance day to night Lens sharp, soul in sight. [00:00:19] Speaker C: The camera whispers hold it tight Click, click Moments free time captured in the. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Breeze the camera light, the flash ignite. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Well, well, well. Good morning, everybody. And just for those of you listening along, no Jamaicans were harmed in the making of that. That music clip, fortunately. Or paid, for that matter. [00:00:53] Speaker C: No, unfortunately, they weren't paid. Full AI. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Full disclosure. Welcome back to the Camera Life podcast. This is episode 132, proudly brought to you by Lucky Straps. That's us. Head to lucky straps dot com. We've got a big sale on at the moment. It's our family sale. It only happens once a year. [00:01:12] Speaker C: Yep. [00:01:12] Speaker A: And it cuts through the noise of Black Fridays and Cyber Mondays and holidays and Christmas. It's just family sale for you guys. [00:01:20] Speaker C: It's funny, we've been running it at this time of year, like sort of early to mid November, for almost 10 years. And I don't know if you remember, but Black Friday wasn't really a thing in Australia 10 years ago. So I started running it as just a way to. Basically it was for our. Anyone that had bought it. It started off anyone who bought a camera strap before, if you already owned one and you wanted a second one, this was your chance to get a really good deal on a second camera strap. That's how it started. That's why I called it the family sale. And then I end up expanding it to email subscribers as well. And then it just sort of slowly got engulfed by what is now, I think, known as Black November. That's some of the emails start coming out on, like, November 1st. We're like, no, October. [00:02:05] Speaker A: I got them in October. [00:02:07] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh, it's getting crazy. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Get ready. Save this page. [00:02:11] Speaker C: Almost thinking about just ditching it all together and moving it to a whole other time of year. But anyway, we'll see how it goes. But if you. If you did want to buy something, even one of these T shirts, they're. They're of course quite cheap right now. I think they're like 30 bucks, so. Yeah, why not? [00:02:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I've got mine on. You can't get this color, though. This is a special, special color. [00:02:27] Speaker C: That's a one off Greggy. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Anyway, I am fortunate, but yeah. Welcome to the Camera Life podcast, everyone. Of course, being a Thursday morning, we have a guest with us and we are joined by the effort. I can't say the word. We're joined by Harriet Tarbeck, everybody. That's it. Yeah, I was thinking about The Schweppes. And then I. I got confused with the way the words and the letters go. It's very early. Welcome. So great to have you. Now, of course, we caught up at befop and we will. We will touch base about Beef Up a little bit. We always like to reminisce about BFOP with. With Beef up instructors and participants, but we're going to uncover your story. But before we. We dive into that, can you just give us the quick version of who you are, what you shoot, what you're known for? [00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So I am a commercial photographer. I. My commercial practice mainly involves around people and location. So not so much studio, but do a little bit of that. But yeah, I like. I like to work with people. So lots of portraits, lots of kind of bit of advertising, marketing stuff, a lot of events. But I also run an organization called Photo Collective. So we build a community around photo. Providing opportunities for photographers through award programs and workshops and artist talks and things like that. And I also have a podcast called When Harry Met Sally, which I can't wait to talk about the workings of a podcast with you guys. [00:04:05] Speaker C: It's cool. It's fun. I've. I've listened to a couple of episodes and. But I got lost in your. You've been cranking them out over two seasons. There's a ton in the catalog there. Where. Well done. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't feel like there's a ton compared to you guys, but we. Yeah, we've got a few. Couple of seasons and we. We do ours a little bit differently. So we do kind of like 12 episodes in one go and then we have a break and then we do another season and so we'll be doing a third season next year. Whereas you guys seem to be just like you're doing it every week, which is. [00:04:39] Speaker A: We got nothing better to do. Nothing better to do. [00:04:41] Speaker C: We're just unemployed. We're stuck in our little bedrooms. Yeah, we're committed. [00:04:47] Speaker A: We're basement nerds, basically. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Just quickly. So tell, tell everyone listening. Like, what's the podcast about? Who's it good for? Who should give it a listen? [00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's a photography podcast. So it's a. It's. Sally Bramble and I have worked together for years in one way or another, and she said a couple of years ago, I just want to do something more. Why don't we start a podcast and, you know, Sally suggests something and before you know it, it's happening. So away. And yeah, it's. It's about the photography industry, but it's about the people, really. So it's kind of. It's about their stories and how they got into photography, but, like, what. Who they are and. And what they love about it and, you know, what connects us all in this kind of crazy world. And we have, like a. A bit of a theme that we have, like, it's quite loose. Like, we have a connecting question that we ask all our guests for each season, just to kind of connect them a little bit and have a little bit of a theme for each season. But it's pretty loose as well, that'. [00:05:47] Speaker A: And I especially like, you know, we often see people start podcasts, whether it be photography or DJing or whatever it may be, and they get burnout and they don't. They don't kind of. They can't sustain it because they just find it's too much. But I love the idea of creating a specific season, you know, and locking yourself in just for that period, rather than it being, oh, every week we've got to do this thing that. [00:06:13] Speaker C: What are you saying? [00:06:14] Speaker A: No, no. Well, I've been meaning to tell you, Justin, I don't. I've been lying this whole time. I don't love what we do. I don't. Talking about photography every day, I hate. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Sounds like a drag. [00:06:28] Speaker A: I mean, really, it's a clever solution, especially if you're a working professional, unlike Justin, and you've got a lot on your. Unlike Justin, and, you know that. Burnout. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I think we realized very early on that if we were going to do it, we're both quite busy people and we both have quite a lot of other projects going on. So we sort of realized that if we were going to do it, we'd have to, like, think of it like a project that we were doing at a certain time of year. So we actually do all the interviews kind of at once as well. So we spend like three or four weeks interviewing everyone and we have like. Unlike you guys, who are all set up in your places, we. We hire, actually. We. Yeah, we use a space at Collatz College in Melbourne that they wonderfully provide their podcast weeks for us as sponsorship. And we go in there and we book the room. So we can sometimes do three interviews in a day, which we're learning is a lot, and we need to space things out just a little bit more. But, yeah, we do it all in kind of like a month, but. And then we put it out for 12 weeks kind of in the three months after that, and that sort of worked for us. [00:07:42] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right though. It's surprising how much energy it takes from you when you, when you're engaging with them, especially on a podcast. Because like if we do a, say Thursday morning and then there's a camera released, like last week, there was like last week, last week we did a Thursday, Monday night podcast, Thursday morning podcast and then a Thursday evening podcast for the new canon. Wasn't it the R6, R63 coming time. We got halfway through that evening, Thursday R6 podcast just. And I were just running out of words. Like we just couldn't. [00:08:10] Speaker C: Greg was nodding off because it wasn't a Fujifilm camera. It was just like what, how many frames a second? What. It actually has autofocus. That's crazy. Anyway, should we. Okay, we should probably get on to, we should get onto our guests, you know, life story and all that kind of thing. Should I quickly say hello to the chat and see who's in? Because, oh look, we had a couple of new members, Jim, the real Jim and also Jim's AI. So that's fun. Rodney Nicholson is here. Good morning. Philip Johnson, as always. He says, morning, Harriet. LTK photo. Good afternoon. Of course is the other side of the planet. Lisa Leach. Good to see you. Lucinda, good morning. Ian Thompson is here. Rick Nelson is here. Yelena says, good morning, Harriet. Greg, Justin and the chat, Digi Frog from Tasmania, Bruce Moyle. Morning everyone. Today from Alice Springs. Ah, that's cool, Bruce. [00:09:05] Speaker A: She gets around me. [00:09:07] Speaker C: I always enjoy your little map posts on Facebook or whatever. They just pop up. It's like Bruce is heading to Honolulu and I'm like, Simon Pollock says, g', day, Bruce. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Well, well, what a waste, Simon. [00:09:20] Speaker C: What a number. What about Harriet here? She's the guest. [00:09:23] Speaker A: But give Bruce the love. [00:09:27] Speaker C: And yeah, that's, that's, that's us. So let's do some interviewing. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Let's. I just want to make one last point about podcasting. I do believe that doing a live podcast makes it easier. I've done a pre recorded podcast in the past, but I think doing it live is easy because it just feels so organic and natural, especially when you're including the chat. You know, you're just chatting with your mates and you're getting questions from your mates and you're just having a conversation. I really love that aspect of it. And, and yeah, it just doesn't feel like, like you're sitting down to create content, you know, it's. [00:10:01] Speaker C: And speaking out into the, into the void. Speaking of chatting with your mates, look at this guy. David de Parker. You had him on the podcast. [00:10:08] Speaker A: I know. I've got a bone to pick with you, David. He's constantly dodging me. He keeps throwing other guests in front of him because I keep saying, we've got to get you on the podcast. And he says, yeah, I want to. And then he's like, oh, have you heard about my wife Martine? She's an amazing artist. So he keeps throwing status. He is quite. [00:10:28] Speaker C: You had him on? Well, it was the. I think it only came out recently. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah, this came out this week. It was just a short one with David because. So we did like a. Nikon is a sponsor of ours as well, and so we did, like, what sponsors? [00:10:44] Speaker A: Oh, my God, what the hell? We got to live off this scungy lucky straps brand who throws us a few dollars every now and then. [00:10:52] Speaker C: If I want more sponsors, I've literally got start new businesses. That's the only way we can get you sp. I'm. I'm trying to think of new businesses, so I'm like, oh, we need probably three sponsors for the podcast, so what else could we do? [00:11:04] Speaker B: They are amazing. They. Yeah, they've been so supportive of a lot of the things that I've. Projects I've done with Tom and at Photo Collective. And, yeah, we asked. We asked, and they said, yep, we'll support you. So, yeah, we wanted to do something that kind of like, really showcased Nikon, but we like to. When we, you know, in all areas of what I do, I like to promote the sponsors, but not in a really selly way, you know, And I think Julie at Nikon really agrees with that as well. So we decided to get David on and, you know, he's just so wonderful and has such a wealth of, you know, stories about photography. And so, unfortunately, it was just a short one. It was supposed to be 15 minutes. It ended up being about 20 minutes. But we're gonna have to get him on for a deeper dive, I think. [00:11:51] Speaker C: Yeah, after us. After us. [00:11:54] Speaker A: Get in line. Get. [00:11:56] Speaker C: I do agree, though. It is nice. It's nice for things to be a bit more organic and not too forced when it comes to sponsors. But if you scan the QR code that is near Greg's head. Actually, I should put it near Harriet's head. That's better. If you scan the QR code near Harriet's head, you can save on camera stripes. I'm just kidding. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Terrible plug. That was shocking. [00:12:16] Speaker C: I thought it was pretty good. [00:12:19] Speaker A: We'll just put the QR code over the guests the whole time. [00:12:22] Speaker C: It's like an emoji? Yeah. Okay, so where do we start? [00:12:29] Speaker A: Well, I think we need to roll back the clock a little bit and find where all this creative energy came from. So what we tend to do here is we like to. I, well, I personally like to care what Justin likes, but I personally like to roll back the clock and get to understand where, where that creative spark started for you. You know, Was it in, was it in early in life? Was it later in high school when you know, you managed to do some photography as one of your class? When did the creative bug bite you? [00:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was a very slow moving creative bug actually. I, I actually like, I got my first camera when I was about six. So I, I have actually been taking photos for a long time and all my life, my family, we traveled around a lot when I was younger and moved countries a lot. So dad always was taking photos and so I think, and mom and so I think I kind of got the idea of taking photos when I was very young. But I, I never sort of like, it was only really in recent, very recent years that I've actually kind of called myself a creative or an artist. You know, I think those words are so weighted and feel really kind of heavy I guess. And I think with photography there's such a technical side to it that it's, that it's a kind of like a, it's a intermediate creative in medium in a way. You know, some are using it in a really, really creative way, some are using it really in a, you know, much more technical way. And so there's. I never really kind of associated myself with this kind of really creative kind of person, but I was always taking photos. So you know, when I was at high school I was the one with the camera at all the parties and you know, Even throughout my 20s I always had a camera there but never really kind of thought of myself as someone that was kind of making projects or, or yeah, a creative. And then it was sort of when I was in my mid-20s, a friend of mine went to this art school in Leeds where I was living in the UK at the time and she went to apply for, you know, a place there. And I thought, oh, just have a little look around the photography area and kind of ended up applying myself and, and that was kind of, I guess more the start of doing it much more intentionally. So it wasn't really into my mid twent that I actually was like, oh, this is something that I'm really kind of, you know, into in a very intentional way. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Would it be fair to say that you're, you're early starting, you know, at the age of six and going through your teen years and then into your 20s. Do you think that that influenced your, your current style of photography? You've got a very documentary style. You love photographing people. You're a bit of a humanist, like our good friend Chris Hopkins. You know, you've got that, you've got that documentary thing down. Do you think that that's where that sort of stems from? From just documenting day to day life and the people that you interact with? [00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah. 100. I think for me photography was actually because we moved around a lot. Like I lived in five countries before I was eight. I think we moved to the fifth country by the time I was eight and then we moved, I moved again and then I moved to the UK after that and then I traveled a lot. So I think for me, photography became without knowing it. And I've only kind of, you know, realized this in recent years with, you know, the wisdom of middle age is that photography actually for me was a, it was a way of kind of remembering where I had been and what I'd be doing and really trying to hold on to something grounding in that place before moving on again. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Well, that's really powerful, isn't it? [00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we move so much and like, you know, we'd, you know, I changed schools and friendship groups and, you know, I was always, I think I was always just trying to like capture it so that, you know, in the future when we moved, I would remember what, where I'd been. So, yeah, that documentary kind of aspect and storytelling aspect has definitely followed through to my, you know, what, my, what I do now, for sure. [00:16:36] Speaker C: That'S, that's brilliant. I, I have not lived in any countries really, other than I've traveled, but I haven't lived anywhere else. But I do have a really hard time remembering different phases of my life and especially smaller moments and things like that. And I wish I had more images, that's for sure. And I certainly wish I had more images and I also wish the ones that I did have were easier to access. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Like, how do you access image? Do you have access to those images from earlier parts of your life now? [00:17:10] Speaker B: Do you have, I mean, actually funnily enough, like, oh, you can't. Oh yeah. Right behind me there's a mic. I've just moved house. And again. Yeah, I know for the first time in 11 years. So the last house I had, I've been in 11 years. [00:17:25] Speaker C: You were like, that's it. I'm not moving anymore. [00:17:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not moving. I want to stay here. And then literally we moved on Monday. And so I've just. Yeah, that's all my photo albums that are there from like the pre digital age where I put everything in photo albums. But yeah, I think, like, I'm waiting for the. When I have the time and energy to do the big project of going through all the negatives and making the photo book of the life that was once lived. But I think it was pretty good when I was younger at getting those roles developed just in like, you know, quick prints and putting them in albums. So I do often look back, which is always, you know, which is always nice. I'm quite nostalgic person. So I enjoy looking back and remembering the life lived. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very cool. It's. It's lovely. Remembering photo album. Like going through photo albums and. And recalling that somewhere, you know, someone has those images, you know, and I. It makes me think about my nan who, you know, upon reflection, probably was my first sort of introduction to photography. Granted, every photo she took, she would chop the tops off everyone's head. Just didn't matter what it just, you know, and she had this little. Yeah, but she, she had like a little. I can't remember what it was, but it was a little kind of fixed lens camera and it had one of those cube flashes on the top. And I remember going to Kmart with her and dropping off the. The role in the little envelope. Filling out the envelope with her. Yeah, I think she gave me a camera at some point. I. It was like one of those long thin film cameras. They had like a weird cartridge that. [00:19:04] Speaker B: That was my first camera. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I think that was like. [00:19:08] Speaker B: A. Yeah, and it was long and thin and you kind of like that. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it was so bizarre. [00:19:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:14] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:19:14] Speaker C: I often had the Cube. The cube on them. Those ones. Yeah. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:18] Speaker A: If anyone remember everyone in the chat, if anyone remembers those sort of long, thin, you know, cameras at the film cameras. 110 film. [00:19:26] Speaker C: That's it. All over it. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah, all over it. But yeah, there is a lot. And you know, it's sad also because I kind of think, oh, man, I don't know where those photos are now. I don't know if. I don't know if, you know, when they, when they had to leave their. Their home that they'd been in for 50 years, you know, where did those images go? There's always that, that kind of. Oh, where are they? [00:19:46] Speaker B: They'll be somewhere. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is sad, you know. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:53] Speaker A: We all do often put our photo albums into a box and put them in the cupboard and we have to try and remember that that's the thing you grab if there's an emergency, that sort of thing. [00:20:00] Speaker B: So now it's the hard drive. It's just. [00:20:04] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it's all on the cloud. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Floating around. It's just so much. There's so much. It's so hard to find. Lucinda says you can still buy the 110 format from Lomography. So if you happen to have one of those cameras floating around from a nan or something, film. [00:20:25] Speaker A: Greg. But I want to know what the camera was too. I can't remember. I'll have to do some research. But if anyone out there remembers, I. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Did look it up a few years ago, actually. But now that memory cell's gone. [00:20:36] Speaker C: So I'm sure there's. There was a whole series. Like you could buy them from various different brands and stuff like that. It was a format. [00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Now relatively cheap, I think. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. In my own personal practice, I still use film cameras now and I, and I use kind of. I call them broken cameras. So, you know, I'll find something in a charity shop window and just kind of grab it or someone will say, do you want this? And I'll go and like fix it up, get it fixed and like, you know, put some rolls of film through it and, and, and any like, you know, kind of technical issues. Actually, I kind of thrive on that. I really love the kind of this look and I, I think in my kind of. Of. Yeah, I've just kind of done a big project. I did a big project over the last few years just on my son and like life actually being stable and not moving and the difference between kind of his upbringing and mine. And yeah, it was all shot with kind of these broken cameras. So there are loads of like light leaks and there's loads of like the film's not wound on properly and mistake double exposures and yeah, filters. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Before filters were cool. So many apps now have a light leak filter. Yeah. [00:21:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:58] Speaker A: So that's very cool. [00:22:00] Speaker C: So we'll get. We will dive back into your photographic studies and continue that story. But I just wanted to ask, since you just mentioned. So when you say work in your personal work or your personal practice versus, I guess, versus commercial, how do you switch gears? Is that one of the ways that you switch gears like that by using different equipment? How do You. Yeah. How do you switch between these two different, I guess, styles of photography? [00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, yeah, really interesting. So I guess like for a long time I was like, after I moved back to Australia and really got into the photography industry and started working commercially, I found that everything, all the photos I took were really commercial. Like even in my own practice, like I had this really kind of like, you know, everything looked really perfect and, and I would go overseas and do trips overseas and photograph and that sort of felt a bit different because you're, you know, there's such a different flavor in different countries. But when I came back and tried to work like more, you know, personally at home, it felt very commercial because I'd just been working in a commercial way for so long and actually it was during lockdown. It was just before the lockdown years. It was in 2019. My, my bestie and business partner Tom gave me a Yashica twin lens camera and said, I think you should, I've done a little bit of film over the years, but just, you know, a roll here and a role there. And he said, I think you'll really like this. You should get, you know, you should, you know, borrow it, see how you go. And then we went into those lockdown years and that's when I started this project on Jack and I started using that Yashica camera. And it just completely, because you're looking down for a start, you can't look at the back of the camera. You've got to really be intentional about, you know, what's in the frame. You can't just kind of snap away. There's no real, you can post production, but I, I don't. And it just felt like a really different way of working and it started to really break that kind of like commercial way. I was looking at stuff and then I started getting all these broken cameras and just using 35 mil point and shoots disposable cameras and all these other kind of cameras. And it just really changed the way. And for a long time I kind of shot in this way that was my personal work was on film cameras and then my commercial work was digital. And then over the last, you know, five or six years I've been able to shoot a lot more personal work on my digital camera, but still have that personal feel and that flair that I feel is really mine rather than what I say a client wants months. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's good. Go on, Justin. [00:24:46] Speaker C: Oh, I was, I was just going to ask, where did, where did you get the drive to originally to actually want to do personal work at all. So, like, where does that, where does that spark come from when you're sort of, you're, you know, you're doing commercial work, you're working as a photographer. What makes you think, I want to do something? Just for me. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Just for me. Yeah. So again, I think it was. So I never felt like I had time, time to kind of do any personal work, but. And not so much time, but also like, you know, when you're shooting all the time, you have a day off, I don't want to go out and shoot, you know, let's work, you know. And so that was, that was a bit of a kind of, I guess not a problem, but that's just a, a roadblock that I had. And I started when I started Australian Photography Awards with Tom. He, he has always had a personal practice and was always, you know, he's, you know, a very accomplished artist and always had that really creative side. And I was definitely much more the. I felt like the business side maybe. And he. Yeah, but, but when I started Australian Photography Awards, like, seeing all these creatives make this incredible work that it was being submitted was just so sort of inspiring. And that's when I guess I, you know, photography for me was always a love. Like, we've just spoken about, photographed all my life, I've documented my life and the people around me. And I just had stopped doing that because I'd been working commercially for the, for the decade before I started Australian Photography Awards. And so I guess it was sort of at that time that I started thinking I really need to start bringing that real love for it back. That, that, that passion that I had as a practice rather than as a business. And so it, and then it took a while. It takes me a while to do things. Like, I'm a bit of a slow burn of a person. I need to mull ideas over a little bit. And I guess, like, just coming back, you know, not to harp on about lockdown, but that was the time when I actually had the space because all, as we all know, all the work dried up. There was no work. And so suddenly, like, I hadn't taken a photo for, you know, a couple of months and I started doing one of those little lockdown projects with my digital camera. And again, everything felt really commercial and it felt really like a commercial look to the work. And that's when I brought out that Yashica camera again and started photographing there. So. So really it was through those years where we got a bit more Time and space that I managed to get that practice back. And now there's definitely more about. It's definitely the thing that comes last, unfortunately. You know, all the businesses come first and, and what have you, but it's definitely there more than it was. And you know, there are times where it comes back a little bit more than other times. So, yeah, it's definitely something that I've, Yeah. Tried to really hold on to. [00:27:45] Speaker A: Yep. I want to cover a point about lockdown just quickly, in a moment. But first I just want to ask Justin, did you find that when you were shooting weddings, Jay, that the, the, the drive to go out and shoot personal stuff was tricky. It just wasn't there or it was. [00:28:00] Speaker C: Was a hundred percent the lowest. While when I was the busiest at shooting weddings, it was the drive. So it took. It would need to be something quite unique. Whether it's something, you know, an aurora is happening or something like on Facebook last night, everyone's posting aurora photos. It would need to be something. Some reason to really do it or, you know, I was getting excited, getting into trying to shoot snowboarding that, you know, I got the camera out and went on trips to do that. But that was coming towards the sort of the tail end of that busy season of weddings for me. There was sort of four or five years there where we were just flat out. And yeah, mid, mid summer, there was no drive to unpack gear out of. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker C: Out of your car or out of wherever it was and go and shoot personal work. Probably the only thing that I would. I would ever shoot that wasn't weddings or a commercial job during those busy times was if new gear come out and I needed to test it. That's the only thing be like, all right, new cameras come out. I need to go and shoot with it. I'll find something to shoot that's not a wedding. But. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Even that was still attached to this is for a business purpose. [00:29:17] Speaker C: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Like it might just be like hanging out with people or whatever. So it was a lot more enjoyable in terms of. There was no pressure or anything like that, but it certainly wasn't. [00:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:29] Speaker C: There was no extra energy to put intention into it. And I think it's intention that is what. Where it's like, it's personal work as opposed to just like I'm just hanging with my camera kind of thing. Like there was definitely no drive to put some thought into what, you know, what you're doing. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:47] Speaker C: Beyond just like, oh, click, you know. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:50] Speaker B: And what about now? But do you guys have like, personal projects that you're doing photographically? [00:30:00] Speaker A: For me, that's all I do is personal projects. So I do very little commercial or pro work anymore. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker A: And even when I used to, it was very little. It was more for, you know, friends and friends of friends and those sort of connections. I sort of. I looked at it more as doing favors that sometimes people gave me money for because I loved it so much. You know, it didn't. It didn't feel like work because I think I. I started with the mindset that I'm not a professional photographer. I'm just a guy who knows how to take photos and build compositions and see the light, you know, which is what we all do. And I think that helped me not get too serious about it. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:40] Speaker A: But. So what about you, Justin? Where are you at now with projects? [00:30:44] Speaker C: I don't know. I'm just looking around at the images that I've stuck up on my wall. I'm starting. I bought a printer. That's been fun. So I've started printing, but I don't have a project at the moment. I think I'm kind of looking for one. The closest thing I had to a project was after doing yours and Chris's workshop at BFOP 2024 than I did. Whatever it was. Nine weeks or 12 weeks of 12 images a week. [00:31:13] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:31:14] Speaker C: Showed them on the podcast. That was a fun project. And some of those looking back were. There was. It was heading somewhere with my photography. It was definitely. But I don't know how to turn that. I think actually Matt Palmer from Alpine Light in, he's. He's got a. There's a long story. He's got a. What would you call it, that photo. Kaizen Greg. What? It's. Yeah, he's got a thing. I don't know what it's called. [00:31:45] Speaker B: Like an image critique. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:49] Speaker A: It's a low pressure way of getting your images judged by professional. [00:31:52] Speaker C: Exactly. So it's. It's a step. It's like judging, but then with. With feedback of different ways you could approach things or whatever. So it's kind of like judging with extra feedback and not. Not for the purpose of being like, oh, I got a silver. It's just. [00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:32:12] Speaker C: Of wanting to progress your photography. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:15] Speaker C: And he reviewed. Yeah, it is a great idea. And the feedback was really good. And he reviewed one of the series that I did from that when I was in Vietnam. And I don't know if he was just trying to get me to spend more money. With Photokaisen, I'm 100% sure he wasn't because he's the opposite of that kind of person. Yeah, I know. I think he's actually, he's like, I would, I just wouldn't want to charge too much for anything. I'm like, you gotta make money anyway. So he definitely, he definitely wasn't doing that. But he, he said, you know, there's something here. There's a series here, there's a project here that you should pursue. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:55] Speaker C: You know, and so. But I just haven't got there. I don't know what it is. I don't know what that is. I get really excited when I see this project. Where is it? [00:33:08] Speaker A: Speaking of broken cameras, Justin's got a whole shelf of them. Yeah, you'd have a field day. Harriet. [00:33:19] Speaker C: This, this book. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. [00:33:22] Speaker C: By Michael Coyne Village it like that is an amazing project. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker C: And like, but I just don't know how to start that off in a small bite sized way because this is like, I don't know how long he's been working on this for like 15 years or something. You know, it seems so huge and. [00:33:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. Like that is the end product, isn't it? So when you look at that, it's like, how am I ever gonna do that? But that started with him having a conversation prob this with the, his photography friends going, I think I've got this idea, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just starting to take photo. And I think with the, with projects it's kind of like what do I, what do I want to do? How do I want to spend my time? You know, what am I interested in? Like that, that's the core of it because it is your personal time and it is the way you want to, you know, like take photos outside of taking photos, if you're working commercially or in a business way. So how do I want to actually spend my time? What's a kind of easy accessible way for me to kind of feel like I'm being creative rather than kind of like trying to like think of a big thing to do. It's like, you know, like a lot of my projects are kind of like around my family, around live life. I just did one. My, my parents have just sell or sold the kind of family home in Sydney that was, was, you know, there was the only ever constant that we had growing up. So I went there a couple of times and made work around there. So it's just, it's all like very Accessible. So that I can. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:58] Speaker B: You know, I can photograph it and not feel like I've got to go to Vietnam to do it. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? It's finding something. I think accessible is the best word for. For personal practices, because if it's too hard to even just get there, to take a single image, then already you're up against roadblocks. And some people thrive on that challenge. You know, we've interviewed people that have, like Michael and. Yeah. Who was the guy we had him back on recently. Gosh, I can't remember his name. Wheaton Healy. Do you remember Mark Wheaton Healy? [00:35:32] Speaker C: Oh. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Gosh, I'm so sorry. [00:35:36] Speaker C: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:35:38] Speaker A: It's. [00:35:38] Speaker C: You've. Now it's. It's on the tip of my tongue now that you've said Wheaton. It's. [00:35:44] Speaker B: It's like all you can think of is Wheaton. [00:35:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I'm like, no, I know exactly who it is. He did the amazing. The project of the Yarra River. [00:35:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And the one at the Tiwi Islands that he's been working on for. [00:35:56] Speaker C: Oh, Nick, Nick. Nicholas Walton. [00:36:00] Speaker A: So close. [00:36:01] Speaker C: I kept hearing Wheaton and I'm like, stuck in my head. So. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Lovely, isn't he? [00:36:09] Speaker A: So he's been working on that project in the Tiwi Islands and, you know, and that. That. That's a. That's a hard to get to place. It's not like you're flying into la. Like you're flying to a. To a remote space and then getting. Connecting, whether it be boats or planes, to where the. Where the. Where the project is. It's, you know, it's quite admirable that someone can still persist with a project despite those roadblocks. You know, they said they see the value and the importance and the criticality, especially in days like this, where we have to tell those stories before what was. What is becomes what was. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. [00:36:47] Speaker C: It's interesting that you said about accessible. This is where I really struggle, because. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Tr. [00:36:54] Speaker C: For some reason, like, when I. When I go to Vietnam or various other places, I'm so interested about new visuals, new ways of life, new things that I'm instantly inspired to take photos. Like, it's like, it's easy. Like, I don't even have to. It's not. It's not. I don't have to think about it at all. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:17] Speaker C: Just comes at me and I get. I just do not get that around where I live. I don't know. Because I'VE lived in Bendigo my entire life. [00:37:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker C: Or whatever. But I've. I've tried and I really struggle to. To get any of those feelings wandering around. Even the streets of Melbourne are just like, Yeah, I don't know. And then I go to another country. That. That's interesting. And it's just. [00:37:43] Speaker A: It turns out light lights up. Yeah. [00:37:46] Speaker C: And I don't know whether that's because there's. There's not like, it's kind of surface level photography. It's just like, oh, that's new and. And cool. That's new and cool. You know what I mean? Like, there's not. There's not that next layer of whatever it is. Yeah. [00:38:00] Speaker B: So what about when you did the 12 Pro or the nine projects, the mini project? They must have been around Bendigo. [00:38:07] Speaker C: So luckily, a couple of those weeks I was in Vietnam, but it's cheating There was. It got hard. I'm not gonna lie. It got. It got real hard. Shot my family at the pool, at my parents pool. [00:38:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:24] Speaker C: I. So Vietnam. I did one around the house. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. The washing basket. [00:38:31] Speaker C: The middle washing basket one. Yeah. Yeah. So you can still remember the first. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah, because I thought that was. Because I could see what you were trying to achieve. You were. You were. You were trying to switch your wedding photography brain into an art photography brain. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker A: You were looking for light and shadow and contrast and composition just with what was around you. I think you even photographed your feet at one point, didn't you? Or was that for us? [00:38:55] Speaker C: Well, that was the. That was the washing basket. [00:38:57] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. [00:38:58] Speaker C: So. Yeah. Because. So anyway, I should. Maybe I should show you this photo. It's. I don't know if I'll be able to pull it up, though, because it's in Lightroom, and Lightroom's been just not giving me any joy. [00:39:10] Speaker B: I love that. I feel like that project is almost like those nine projects is almost like. Like one project, isn't it? Like, I'd love to see that. How that is all. Oh, amazing. [00:39:21] Speaker C: So I think the thing that got me was. Well, the thing that got me was our washing machine beeps. Like, we work from home and so the washing machine beeps when it's done. And it. Just through the middle of the day and I don't know what it is. It just steals my soul every time that washing machine beeps. And. And I think this combined with the fact that I had. You can't see it because it won't let me zoom in, but there's a band aid on my big toe from a stub toe incident. But anyway, so. So like I, I did that and, and it did. It got really difficult. Like there's only so many times I can photograph like my nephews or the same stuff. So I was trying to keep it somewhat different. I think one day I even did a photo. I had my camera with me all day and every hour on the hour for 12 hours, I took a photo of whatever I was doing at the time. They weren't amazing, but I did it as a collection. [00:40:26] Speaker B: They become something. Something that's greater than the individual parts. [00:40:31] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:40:32] Speaker C: Hopefully that was the goal. But whether or not they did, I'm. I'm not sure. I don't know. I guess I could, I could just try and do it again. It just got really. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Maybe it's something about. Maybe the project is like photographing the most mundane. Like you say, it's all mundane and I can't think of anything interesting to photograph. Maybe those mundane things are the things to photograph and maybe you'll find beauty back in. [00:40:59] Speaker C: Yeah, okay, I'm gonna write that down. Okay. So maybe I need to. I need to lean into the fact that whenever I see something where I'm like, that is just boring, I just take a photo of that, try and. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Wait to hit it in a way that's just like suddenly it becomes something beautiful. [00:41:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, okay. [00:41:18] Speaker A: I. More and more recently, I've been focusing more on the experience of photography over the end outcome. You know, I think sometimes we lose sight of that. The fact that we've turned out, we've created so we've turned out now. Turned on our mindfulness. Get the words out, Greg. [00:41:34] Speaker B: Rick. [00:41:34] Speaker A: Turned on our mindfulness. And it doesn't, in a way, it doesn't matter what the final outcome is. You know, it's about what you went through on that day of those 12 hours and how that, how that turned your eye to look for things, you know, to look at the mundane and find the special, those sorts of things. But it is tricky. I mean, we all go up and down in, you know, motivation. You know, I've been in a funk on and off for about a. Probably about 15 years really. But for the last 12 months especially, I've been in a bit of a funk. And, you know, I just started looking at things differently and then instead of looking up for compositions, I started looking down and seeing all these tiny details. And that's sort of what inspired me to pick up a macro lens. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:16] Speaker A: Sometimes I go out And I've got my street photography eye on and I'm just, I'm just scanning and looking for the light and other times I'm, I, I've got my macro ion and I walk around bumping into things because I'm always looking down, you know. [00:42:28] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, it's that so interesting that art therapy, like using art for therapy and using photography for. Yeah. Mindfulness and, And I've got a friend, Ricky Bunder, who is in a real flow state of photography at the moment where, you know, he says that he, you know, had a bit of a dip as well, but he just, he said that he makes like he goes out every once a week for like two or three hours and goes for a walk and just takes his camera with him. Doesn't think about photographing intentionally. Doesn't like, you know, there's no. Yeah. Intention there. It's just going out with the camera, taking a few frames. You know, sometimes it's really, you know, it works really well. Sometimes it might only be a couple of catches and then not even really looking at the photos afterwards. Just waiting a little bit of time, putting them on the computer, looking at them a week later. And like by working like this, he's actually suddenly accumulated this really incredible kind of body of work. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, how that happens? It sort of just falls in, especially if you're being mindful and you're enjoying the experience. I think eventually the photos will, will show that. [00:43:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:44] Speaker A: The other side of the frame. Did you find your photo, boss? [00:43:48] Speaker C: Which one? [00:43:49] Speaker A: I thought you're going to bring up a photo of something. [00:43:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I brought up the washing basket. [00:43:53] Speaker A: No one wants to see your feet. Come on. [00:43:57] Speaker C: I was trying, I was trying to see what, what the. Yeah. What the other projects were. Apparently my cataloging is not amazing, but I can't remember what week one was. Maybe week one was we just showed the BFOP images. Maybe. [00:44:11] Speaker A: I think we do. Yeah. [00:44:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. So now I think I found. I found most of it because it. [00:44:15] Speaker A: Was pretty much straight after B5 that you took that up. [00:44:18] Speaker C: I just ran out of ideas. It was, it was tough. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker C: Anyway, there were some people in the chat that I thought we should read out their comments on this topic because it's quite. I think it's a really interesting topic that I struggle with and Harriet's obviously an expert in it, so why not, why not try and extract as much knowledge as we can while she's here? LTK photo says definitely interesting. Hearing from the professional side I carry a camera everywhere I go. I find taking photos not work, but the editing is the work part. [00:44:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's another good. A good thing. I've to help me get out of my. My, my most recent deep funk. I just started. Well a. I bought a new camera that helps immensely, but I just started carrying it everywhere and it, you know, it sits on. I've got like a little side table where I sit on the couch because, yeah, I've got a spot got. And it's just always there. And so if the one or the kids or sash does something interesting, then the camera's in hand straight away. And you know, and sometimes I won't look at those photos for weeks. But it's just that process of having your eye turned on, looking for those opportunities. It takes time to build. It's not, it's not necessarily something you can just go, I'm going to be creative today. You know, you've got to work at it and you're going to have misses and you're going to have hits. [00:45:35] Speaker B: So not looking at the photos straight away is. Is quite interesting. Like the photo, the projects I've been doing in Sydney. I actually didn't look at the photo. I didn't look at the photos for about four months and then. And then suddenly you put them on the screen and you're seeing them in a very different way to like because you've got that objectiveness, you know. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But it's also an interesting look at what you were experiencing and feeling that day. You can almost tell from your own images where your head was at. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Whereas you can't remember that. If I said so two months ago you were. You went to the family home on this date. What was that like for you? And you. You probably. Well, I took photos, but you won't remember the emotion behind it. But often the photos re triggers that for you or shows you where you were at. Anyways, sorry, Justin, you're reading out comments. [00:46:22] Speaker C: No, that's good. This is how I wanted to do it. Like we'll read one out and then we'll talk and then, you know, it's good. This is good podcasting David there. Parker says difficult navigating preferred. I can't even talk now. Difficult navigating personal and professional. That need to make a living really can get in the way of personal creativity. And then following up. Bruce Moyle says I go up and down on personal work. Sometimes months can go by without anything. And then three months of crazy fun art Things happen, and then the work kicks in. Kicks back in. The cycle starts again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is hard. [00:47:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And important to listen to that cycle as well and not try. And if, you know, you're in a work state or if, you know, you're, you know, just not feeling it creatively, that's okay. Like to actually just go. Not push it. Because if you try and push it, then you do. It might actually make it worse and make it go on, just go. [00:47:24] Speaker C: Okay, well, then this is the problem. I. It always feels like I have to push it, basically. Unless I'm in Vietnam. [00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:47:35] Speaker A: But then I don't know. The answer is. [00:47:37] Speaker C: What's that? Just move to Vietnam. [00:47:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:39] Speaker C: Then. Then it would be a ticking time bomb as to when I no longer am inspired by that area. And I don't know how long that would take, but I don't think it would take long. [00:47:49] Speaker A: I know what. I know what'll help you. If you book you and I and Jim tickets to Japan, I guarantee. Yes, I. Tokyo is all we need. [00:47:59] Speaker C: Certainly. Yes. That's enough. Yeah, yeah, sure. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyone else in the chat want to come to Japan? Justin's paying. [00:48:07] Speaker C: Gosh, if only. If only I could afford. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Well, Jim's got the. Got the spare lucky straps, credit card. I'll just speak to him directly. It's fine. You don't need to do anything, Justin. [00:48:15] Speaker C: I'll take care of it all. Tokyo was another one of those spots. Exactly, though. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:22] Speaker C: Because it's just. It's just so visually stimulating that you can't help but want to take photos. [00:48:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:30] Speaker C: So I don't even know. [00:48:31] Speaker A: Okay. I took 7, 000 photos in seven days. Oh, it's just nuts. [00:48:36] Speaker B: Talk about editing. Nightmare. [00:48:38] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it took me. It took me a couple of years because I kind of did the A side of images, and then I did the B sides, which I thought weren't as good. You know, a lot of those I just sort of put in black and white, added some grain, called them art. But even, like, I started doing C, D, and E sides down the track because I kept going back through the catalog and go, oh, this is actually a cracker. Like, this is. Yeah, this is worth, you know, editing and cleaning and putting out there. [00:49:05] Speaker B: And that's the interesting thing about that hindsight, isn't it? Because when you're. When you edit straight away, you go, I know what I was thinking of when I wanted this photo, and that's what I got the result. And then you go back a few months later and you're not thinking like that anymore. You actually just see the images for what they are. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think also as you, as you, as you mature as a photographer or a creative or how your eye sees things, you start to appreciate more and more of what you did in the past and you learn from it, I think a lot more. And so every now and then I'll go back over those catalogs and go, oh, I might just pluck that one out and just have a play with it. I might not publish it, I might not do anything with it, but I'll just play around with that image that I took, took, you know, six years ago when I was standing in the rain in the middle of Tokyo, you know. Yeah, that sort of thing. [00:49:51] Speaker C: Matt Palmer says give it a couple of years and sometimes the B sides make it onto the album. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Just maybe they just. Hey, man. And Lucinda, Lucinda says photo tour to Japan. Hey, I mean, that could be our long term goal, Greg. We'll take people on a, a on a photo tour of. We'll do the city and then we'll head out into. Oh, we could head out into the snowy. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it gets snowy. I was talking to XY yesterday, Exe Lim, who's one of our, our viewers, he popped over for a visit and we were talking about photography tours because just before COVID and that's going to bring me back to my covert point. How's that for a segue? Oh, anyway, I think it's called it. [00:50:33] Speaker C: I think I won't make that joke. I was going to make a joke. No, I won't make it. [00:50:36] Speaker A: It. [00:50:37] Speaker C: I think it's. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Exy and I were talking about, about going to Tokyo to do photography because Sash and I are thinking about going next year and I said maybe we should do a tour because in the lead up to Covid, I was starting to look into because I'd already been four times in four years. I was looking at creating tours and taking some people with me. And then Covid hit and obviously everything after Covid fell apart. But you mentioned earlier, Harriet, about that Covid time where unfortunately you couldn't get work and so you did have more time for mindful practice, if that's the way you chose to spend your time. And people that we've interviewed over the the Course of the Camera Life podcast, you know, some of them have turned around life changing results during COVID You know, we had Andrea Ravenko on Was it last week, Jay. I wasn't here for the Monday night, but, but Andrew, I Think I created a. On. On a large format. What was it like a 100 year old film camera that he. Jerry. [00:51:37] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:51:39] Speaker A: He's got this. Yeah, he's a crazy guy, but yeah, he won. He won the Creative Photography Award 2025 at the Sienna Festival. [00:51:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:48] Speaker A: And. And this is just from a project that he and his wife, they made a spacesuit for their little girl. [00:51:54] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:51:57] Speaker A: And. And they use their covert walks to, to create compositions with. With Rocket Girl. And you know, and then years later, he's been recognized as winning it. I've got goosebumps. Winning it. Winning the Sienna Award just from that. That almost forced creativity as a result of COVID and other people we've spoken to have, have, you know, had those sort of insights during that period of time where they had nothing. They couldn't, they couldn't think about business anymore. There's nothing they could do. It was out of their control. You know, the decision was taken from us. And so let's try some creativity. So it's. Yeah, it is interesting. You know, I often see memes, especially with the state of the world at the moment, people saying, can we bring Covid back? Can we just have a. Have a couple of months? [00:52:40] Speaker C: No, no, we cannot. You can stop. Whoever wants to could stop. But no, we're not doing that again. [00:52:49] Speaker B: We're not doing that. [00:52:50] Speaker C: I'm not watching press conferences every day. [00:52:54] Speaker A: No damn injuries. Can't get on the beers. [00:52:58] Speaker B: It's a very weird time, but it was. Look, I've got to say, you know, there was some, you know, real ups and downs. [00:53:07] Speaker C: Yeah, there was. [00:53:08] Speaker B: I, I do see it as a time where we could all stop and just kind of breathe and you know, have. Have space. And you know, I, I kind of of try and look at that like it was a, you know, in some ways, like there was a silver lining there that we could all just. [00:53:28] Speaker C: That's. That's the way to look at it. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:30] Speaker C: How to make the mo. How to make the most of this horrible, horrible situation. That's it. That's a good way to look at it. [00:53:38] Speaker A: Look at, look at Emily. [00:53:40] Speaker C: Yeah, Friend. [00:53:41] Speaker A: Friend of all of ours. Emily Black, amazing photographer. She took up walking during COVID to get some space from her, from her home because she was at home with homeschooling kids. [00:53:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:53] Speaker A: Teenagers. And then she started. I remember her talking to us about it. She said, oh, well, then I thought, oh, I wonder what's on the other side of that hill. I'll just go a bit Further. And then she started jogging, and then she started running, and now she's running ultra marathons. [00:54:05] Speaker B: It's out of control. [00:54:07] Speaker A: And now she's photographing other people doing ultra marathons. Like she's doing photographic, you know, documenting that experience. It's quite, quite. It's quite a phenomenal trajectory when you think about it. You know, just the way things panned out. That silver lining both supported her mentally and physically. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:23] Speaker A: As well as gave her a creative opportunity to do something different. So I'm all for beef. I'm all for covert and befop. Obviously not at the same time. Apparently that didn't work. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Sounds like a nightmare. [00:54:40] Speaker C: Just, just quickly. Hello, drunk wedding photographer. Good to see you. Haven't seen you for a while while. How is it over there in California? LTK photo says I find shooting in black and white only. I focus on the moment that way I don't think about editing them. And then if I find a photo I really like, I'll edit the raw. That's a good, that's a good strategy. Have you, have you got any things like that that you do, Harriet, other than, other than shooting on old film cameras, is there any other things, things that you've explored that help you? I guess, yeah. Whether it's. Be more creative in your personal work or block. Block out certain things so that you can just focus on what you're trying to do. [00:55:25] Speaker B: When I, I guess when I am shooting personally, I just shoot with a 50 mil. So I don't have, I don't take, like, even if I go overseas traveling, I just have a 50 mil. I don't, I don't take a big bag of gear. I don't take other lenses. Don't use zooms different in, in commercial work, but in, in personal work, I just use the 50 mil because I find that it's, it's lighter. Like I can just like, you know, I just take it away with me and, and then I'm not. Think I'm not like, distracted by, like, oh, how will this be better in the end? I'm just there with the four walls of the camera and what I've got, you know, and I either walk in or I walk out or I move around. And I'm kind of like seeing everything from that one. Yeah, yeah, that one viewpoint. So, yeah, I guess that's something that kind of helps control the situ, like put controls on the situation. [00:56:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I just saw, I just saw Justin gag a little at the concept of only taking one lens away on a holiday. [00:56:35] Speaker C: You always say this, but I'm. I've. I think out of you and me, Greg, I'm the only one that traveled with just a fixed lens camera for three months. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Oh, well, I'm sorry. You don't pay me enough to travel. [00:56:45] Speaker C: I'm just. I'm just saying. Okay, so 50 mil. I love 50 mils. I've got six of them. Yeah. And I just ordered. [00:56:59] Speaker A: He's got a problem, Harriet. [00:57:01] Speaker C: I've got a problem. My problem is Canon. And they're slowly rectifying their problem. But basically they, they made. When I switched to mirrorless, they made one of the best 50 mils ever. The 50 mil 1.2 canon. But it's obscenely heavy. But it's beautiful. And then you're right, Lucinda. And then I wanted a lighter one, so I bought the Nifty 50, the 1.8 version, cheap and, and cheerful. Right? And then I want. I ended up with an EF mount, Old Mount 1.4, to put on an old digital camera that I had kicking around a 1 DX, a 1 D Mark IV, like a big. Oh, yeah, Pro. Pro body. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:47] Speaker C: And then I bought a film camera and I was like, the 1.4 is nice, but the old 50 mil 1.4 would be nice to go on that film camera. And then they released the 50 mil 1.4 for the new RF system, which is, you know, halfway between the big heavy 1.2 and the nifty 51.8. That kind of sucks. So I was like, well, I should do that. And. And then I've got one more in order. They just. It's. It gets, it's a. It's that they just release. Released. Canon just released a 45 mil 1.2. [00:58:25] Speaker B: That's like, oh, wow. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:28] Speaker C: So it's a 45 mil 1.2, but it weighs like almost what a nifty 50 weighs. A little bit heavier than a nifty 50, but it's quite compact and I think it retails for like 700 bucks. [00:58:38] Speaker B: Wow. [00:58:39] Speaker C: And it's a 1.2. And obviously it's going to have some compromises and stuff because of it, but I was like, oh, I've got to, because this might, that might be my travel lens. Which leads me to the question I was going to ask. Do you ever find. Obviously I love 50 mils, so I, I can feel the joy of shooting, but for travel, do you ever find it to just be a little bit too tight for. [00:59:00] Speaker B: Yeah, sometimes. Look, sometimes I'm like, oh, God, I can't get that I can't get into this corner anymore. Yeah. So look, maybe, you know, maybe I think I've just used it for so long that it's just so go to now. Like I, I think maybe, you know, I should get. Probably get a 35. I'm not a big gear head. Like I'm not. I don't have a lot of gear even in my commercial kind of practice. I have a couple of zoom lenses and I've got the 50 mil and so that. And that I've just kind of. I make do with that and that's kind of. It's just always worked for me. So I'm not really big on kind of lots of gear in my practice in my business either. And I had the 50 and so the 50s. The like the thing that's the lightest, the the easiest to kind of go with. But I think Id like it would be great to have a 35 I reckon to, to maybe travel with. [01:00:05] Speaker A: That's my preferred travel focal distance. The 35 I like because I miss you shoot street. I like to get that kind of that, that convergence of lines and architecture and light. And it's interesting. I've. So I shoot Fujifilm $25. Cha Ching. Thank you. But. So I use a 23 mil F2 which is a 35 equivalent. And I've tried their 35 which is a 50. [01:00:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:34] Speaker A: Full frame equivalent. And I just, I can't. I don't like the focal distance for some reason. I just can't gel with it. I bought that lens twice and sold it twice. [01:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:42] Speaker A: Because I just really tried to get into that 50 mil space and I just. It's either 35 or I jump right up to 75. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:50] Speaker A: And I only shoot primes. I don't shoot zooms. [01:00:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:00:54] Speaker A: But the 35, it is too cool. I. On the hipster, I found that the 35 is, is my preferred travel photo. [01:01:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:01:02] Speaker A: What, what about anyone in the chat? Have you guys ever traveled with with just a single prime or a fixed lens camera? What. What do you guys use? [01:01:10] Speaker C: Bruce says I ducked out for a work thing, come back and you were talking about the 45 milligan. I'm sorry, I'll, I'll stop. This is supposed to be an interview about Harriet and we've just been talking about my, my, my lack of personal projects and my. [01:01:28] Speaker B: I love it. I love talking about. I love it. I think with the 50 for me because I really, I make a lot of portraits, so I really love portraiture And I really, even when I'm traveling, like, quite often I'll be trying to connect with people, like in the scene. Like, I do obviously, a bit of street, because that's what you do when you're traveling. But then I'll actually try to be connecting with someone in the stream and get eyes on the camera and make a connection. And like, I'll be trying to make portraits. It. So I think that 50 lends itself to that a little bit more. If I was going full street, then, yeah, definitely. Like, I can totally understand that 35 being a preference. [01:02:07] Speaker C: So would you. Would you approach and chat to people and then ask if you can take their portrait? Is that, Is that something that you do? Like, how do you work in those sorts of situations? [01:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess it's like, I don't know, it's sort of organic and it kind of happened. I. I don't know. Every situation is different. Right. But I'll be. I'm quite, I guess, quite timid walking around. Like, it'll always be kind of down here. I'm not someone that goes in like hell for leather. And I'll be, I'll. I'll be, you know, I'll take photos on the sly a little bit, do that little bit of street stuff. But then if I find something that's really kind of looking beautiful, um, I'll make. Yeah, like making eyes at someone and just like showing them the camera a little bit. And then, you know, lots of big smiles and lots of connection kind of. And you can see if they don't want it because they'll be kind of, you know, they'll do this and then I won't make the picture because I think, you know, you've got to kind of have that ethically. I, I feel like the, the sitters, you know, part of it. And there's got to be a connection there. But often the person. Person will. I think that they let you know if it's okay when you're, when you're making that. And then. And then it's, you know, digital is great when you're traveling because then you can show them and you can. And then they can. And then they often, you know, might giggle or. And then you get something beautiful again. And, you know. So we, Tom and I ran workshops to Cambodia for six years. So we went. We went every November for six, six years to Cambodia. And we had the. Yeah, it was just the most amazing experience. We ran small workshops for eight, seven nights, eight days, and we had a whole team of Khmer people over there that were our friends, and we would go. So every person that came over from Australia had like a buddy that was a Khmer guy, and we all went around on motorbikes and we stayed in villages, villages that were their family homes. And it was really like a very sort of authentic, you know, we. We didn't see. We went to Siem Reap, but we didn't go to any of the temples or anything that was up to them to do in their own time. We went around lots of villages. And so every year I would obviously take lots of photos to document the workshop, but also of the people. And then I would print them off in the year and go back with a massive stack and like. Like hand out packs to all, not only our friends and their families, but also, like, we'd often go to the similar places and see, you know, that we'd go to the market and see that person that I'd made a portrait of and I'd just go up and kind of give them the portrait. And yeah, you know, they kind of like, you know, so it's really lovely to be able to kind of do that and kind of. Yeah, give the pit. Give someone something back that. When. [01:04:59] Speaker A: I really love that. [01:05:00] Speaker C: That. [01:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's. So some street photographers now will carry like either a Fuji Instax printer or one of those Canon selfies. There's a guy I follow, there's a guy in Italy and all he. He does photography of, you know, like the. The guards that protect the Vatican City and the police officers, both in the city and in regional areas. And he'll take portraits of them from a distance, print them out, drop them in a little frame. Frame and walk up and he records it all. I don't know if he's got a GoPro or Meta glasses, but he records the whole thing. And that's his posts on. On Social is him going through that process of taking the photo, printing it out, and handing and seeing that reaction that really visceral. They kind of go, oh, wow. You know, like, they just get really. They get a lot out of it. [01:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:47] Speaker A: But, yeah, I really love that kind of. That concept of handing them something back. I took the light from you, now I'm giving it back to you kind of thing. Yeah. [01:05:56] Speaker B: Oh, that's lovely. [01:05:57] Speaker C: Yeah, that's deep. [01:06:02] Speaker B: Love it. [01:06:04] Speaker C: Just quick, I have some more questions around creativity, but before we do that. So what camera is your 50 mil usually attached to? If you travel. Do you travel with film or you travel with Digital or like. [01:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah, mainly. So I. Yeah. So I'm a Canon shooter. I've used Canon all my life. [01:06:26] Speaker A: I'm. [01:06:26] Speaker B: I'm kind of moving. I'm moving into Nikon because Nikon, well, they're just amazing. They're such wonderful people and they support everything we do. And we've got. We've got a Nikon body now and a 50 mil Nikon. 50 mil on that body. So we're sort of starting to move into the nikon space. [01:06:46] Speaker C: Which 50 is. It's not that. That beastly 1.2. [01:06:49] Speaker B: Is it this big? Yeah, yeah. [01:06:51] Speaker C: How good is that lens? Like, the images are insane. [01:06:54] Speaker B: It is beautiful lens. It is. I'm so like. Yeah, it's, it's. I'm in awe of it. It's the most stunning thing. It. It's not exactly that travel camera. [01:07:07] Speaker C: No, no, it is not. And that's that. So the Canon. Canon 1 is very similar. It's actually smaller and lighter, the 1.2, but it's still massive. But it's. That, yeah. Is insane. But that's what's led me. [01:07:21] Speaker B: I've got a 1.4, so for me that works really well because it's lighter again. For me, I'm just all about ease and like. I love that. That 1.2 is amazing. The Canon 1.2 is amazing. But the one point, pretty big. So much lighter. It's just. [01:07:36] Speaker C: That's right. [01:07:37] Speaker B: And I can just, you know, it's just there. And it's also when you're going. When you're traveling and you're going into other spaces, like the bigger that camera, the more you stand out and I just wanna, you know. You know. So, yeah, that. That's kind of. But I went like the last time I went to the uk, which was two years ago, I took all my film. Like I took a 35 mil point and shoot film camera and my Yashika as well. And I shot a few rolls of the Yashika and a few rolls of the 35 mil and I had my, my Digi camera as well. But oh my God, I had to like get film developed over there because they've just changed all the X ray machines at the airports and I was really worried about bringing back on undeveloped film. And so I got it developed over there and because I don't know know, you know, I haven't been there for so long. I don't know like any little labs or anything. I just got it developed at this kind of mainstream place. It was, it was so Expensive. It was like. I was like. It was like. It was the most expensive thing that I did on my whole. [01:08:49] Speaker A: Oh, no. [01:08:50] Speaker B: So that was. That was a bit of a learning experience. And so I think, yeah, taking films just that bit more of a risk because you just don't. You either risk the X rays or you have to get it developed. And if you don't have a lab that you know where you can get things done reasonably priced, then, yeah, you. You get a little stab in the heart with how much money you spend on developing film. [01:09:17] Speaker A: It's very true. And so what do you prefer to shoot, like color slide or black and white when you shoot film? [01:09:25] Speaker B: A bit of both. I use. I don't use slide. I don't use transparent transparencies as much, but I use like color negative and. And black and white mainly. Yeah. [01:09:37] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [01:09:38] Speaker B: Bit of both. I like to kind of mix it up a bit. And quite often in projects, I'll have you know, I'll mix that color in black and white as well. I kind of like. Yeah, throw it all in. [01:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah, very cool. [01:09:51] Speaker C: There's a, There's a question in here. I'll. I'll bring up this too, just because it's fine. Bruce thought the Cambodia trip sounds awesome with the buddy system. I actually love that idea. I've been to Cambodia once. It's an amazing country. And going. Yeah, going back for a photo specific trip would be epic. [01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we are like, we're always talking about going back. So we. The reason why we stopped was because of COVID So the last year we ran it was 2019. And then we stopped. Stopped because of COVID And then of course, after, you know, Covert, it's like everything was different. Everything's different now, isn't it? And so, yeah, we sort of could. Didn't really have the space or finances or whatever to do it. And then now we're sort of. We were gonna maybe run it last year. That kind of hasn't happened, but I think it will happen again. But it was, it was so amazing. We give like little projects to people, like project ideas to people, and then they could also just do whatever they wanted as well. But we'd do things as a team, as a group. And then like, because everyone's got a buddy and a motorbike, they could just say that, like they'd have. Be. Have days where they could go and do their own thing. So they just say, let's go here, let's go there. And. And the, the guys would like be like little tool guys for them. So people did the most amazing things. Like one guy went to. In Southeast Asia, they have like ice making factories. Was like massive. Like the ice is like massive cubes of ice that gets like chipped away at. And one guy went into one of those and documented this ice factory. They were like, you know, someone went on a building site and was documenting. [01:11:25] Speaker C: The work was on the building site, the ice. So we went. I actually got to go with a. A guy that has a business here in Melbourne and he. All their products are made in Cambodia from like, I guess not so much recycled, like found materials. What would you say? Like basically end of run, end of roll from. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:49] Speaker C: And then. And that rolled normally just gets tossed whatever's left after some massive company does their stuff with it. So he grabs that stuff and makes backpacks and all that kind of stuff out of it. It's called the Beat the beekeeper parade. I don't know if you've ever spotted it in Melbourne. His name's Coke. And we were looking at. We were actually looking at trying to make camera bags over there out of found materials. And it just was just a bad. Unfortunately we had a great trip and saw the factory and everything, but it was just bad timing for us afterwards. But he took us out into this village by the sea and yeah. So we like, we slept on wood. Under a mosquito net? No, under like nothing. Just there was a. Sorry. There was a little roof and then a mosquito net and then wood and. But every morning the ice guy would come around and it was literally like a. A motorbike but with like 5 shot extra shock absorbers on each side of. At the back so I could carry extra load and just had a giant block of ice on it. And he would literally just be like, how much ice you need? They're like for the esky. And he just like, chip. Yeah, drop it in the Esky. And then later on that day I would have a beer that was cold because he come around on his motorbike and drop the ice off. But yeah, I would love to see the factory because the block of ice on the back of his bike was massive. [01:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:11] Speaker C: So they must be pumping out giant blocks out of the factory. [01:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:13:14] Speaker C: That's so cool. I never even thought about the factory that's making that block. You know, like, where does that get made? Where does it come from? Whereas we're just used to getting a nice little bag that's got a plastic tie on it that's broken up and ready to go. Yeah. This guy Just had a hammer and a chisel. It was awesome. Sorry. The question I was getting to though was from LTK wants to know, have you used the Nikon zf? It's the camera that tempts him. Have you, have you looked into that at all? That like sort of the vintage retro looking zf? [01:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great little camera. That's not the one that we have, but it is. I've used that often when Nikon are at our event events for Photo Collective. They have. Obviously they're just so amazing. They have all their cameras out. They just let people run wild with them. And so, yeah, I often say, Julie, can I have one of those? And I go around my, you know, my own events taking pictures of everyone with, though, with that. It's, it's really fun and it's really, you know, easy to use and yeah, it's a great little camera. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Now speaking of Photo Collective, let's, let's, let's pivot a little bit bit and, and talk about that. So you're the co. Founder and creative director. I love the title you've given yourself. That's really quite special. [01:14:30] Speaker B: So funny, isn't it, when it's just like, yep, call ourselves today. [01:14:36] Speaker A: Yes, we're at the top. At the top of the food chain. But tell it. [01:14:39] Speaker C: But you need something, you know, you can't just email someone and be like, I'm blank. You know, people want to know like what, what it is you do. So you got to pick something. But yeah, it's of. It's odd, isn't it? [01:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it is, yeah. [01:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. I keep, I keep giving Jim when I write the. So I write a blog for every interview we do and I keep giving Jim new and creative names like VP of Customer Experience and you know, just to. Just to try and elevate it a little bit. It's funny. Anyway, let's talk about Photo. Photo Collective. What sparked that for you? Where did that start? [01:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah, so, yeah, so way back in. So 2013, Tom. So Tom is my business partner, Tom Goldner. And so Photo Collective is. Yeah, there's three of us that run it, so Angus Scott, Tom Goldner and myself. And in 2013, Tom was doing this documentary project in Ghana and he came back and he had a lot of kind of work to do on it. And I guess at that point I was really wanting to do something. I'd been working commercially for four or five years in Melbourne and I really wanted to kind of do something that was a bit more. Yeah, I guess that's when I, you know, started leaning into kind of, you know, wanting to do something a bit more documentary or a bit more personal. And he came back and needed help, like doing a few things. So we work together at a. We used to work at an events company together. And so I said, oh, look, if you ever need any help, I'll help you out. And so I helped him sort of just a few bits and bobs, like helping put the exhibition together and doing some image selection and just a few bits and bobs. Anyway, after that whole. He completed that, he said, I've got a few ideas. You want to meet for a coffee? So we sort of met for a coffee and he said, oh, I've got this idea. Because he'd been going through this whole process of trying to get funding for the project and he sort of realized that, you know, how little funding there was for photographers wanting to do kind of meaningful projects, I guess. And he said, oh, I've got this idea to maybe start a grant of sorts for people making projects work and who are wanting to kind of like do something like this. And, you know, what do you think about it? And so we were like mulling this idea over and talking about it and then we sort of realized it was. It was quite niche and quite, you know, we're sort of trying to start a business and that wasn't really going to make us any money. So we sort of ended up pivoting and started what is now Australian Photography Awards. So that's sort of how that came about. And yeah, that's. That is a single image entry photo competition. [01:17:28] Speaker C: And. [01:17:28] Speaker B: And you know, it was all about kind of finding a place for photographers to provide work and output. Put. Yeah, output, kind of the work they're making. And I guess it all started there. And from there, that year that we did that, Tom started the Fox Dark Room, which was a little dark room based in Kensington that had a little gallery, Fox Dark Room and gallery. There was a gallery there as well. He ran workshops there. We started Australian Photography Awards. I had my son that year, so I always say that's the year we had our three babies, my son. And then together we started Australian Photography Awards. And so over, like that was in 23rd, that was in 2014. And so we launched our first campaign of Australian photography awards in 2016. And then so we were always running all these different things. So we, we were running Australian Photography Awards. He had Fox, but I was running workshops there. We ran workshops to Cambodia. So we had all these sort of different Things and we were always kind of trying to figure out how to bring them all together. [01:18:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:37] Speaker B: And then Covid hit and so everything closed down. But what we had was lots of time to figure out how to kind of bring it all together. And quite sadly Fox closed its doors that year. It was kind of COVID based, but there were a few other reasons as well. So we lost our physical premises, but we were able to put all these different workshops, all these different kind of activities that we were doing and kind of put it under this one roof. And that's when we sort of actually really created the name Photo Collective. So although we'd been kind of doing everything already since, since 2014, it was really in 2020. Well, I think 2021 is when we first registered the name Photo Collective. And then when we came out of that lockdown, that's when we sort of, I guess exploded a bit because we were sort of coming out as this, this kind of new brand. [01:19:33] Speaker A: Yep. And for you guys, what, what does that brand represent to, to the photographic community? [01:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess for us it's a place of, you know, to, to provide opportunities. So we run award programs, we've had a little magazine, we've got a beautiful website that shows projects that photographers are making. It was a place for us to kind of, kind of bring different areas of the industry together as well. So there's a lot of kind of art based photographers on there, but there's also a lot of documentary photographers, people making project work. There's a bit of commercial stuff on there as well. So it's a real sort of mixing board and it was really a place to celebrate Australian photography and the length and breadth that's kind of being made in this country and. Oh yeah, there it is. Yeah. So there's so many kind of different areas of photography in Australia and I guess like we, I think we sort of start to kind of branch into kind of quite a few of those areas and kind of try and bring people together in that one place. [01:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So it's basically a harbor landing spot for people to then explore creative options and also, you know, seek inspiration from it as well. [01:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if you're interested in like the directory that you're on now is really if you're interested in knowing what, how people are making projects or like what, what kind of projects people are making. Like that one that's there right there, Meg Hew. It's on the left hand side. That's a real documentary project really you know, black and white, true kind of reportage project. The one on the right is Arraya Loins, which is, you know, very artistic. So there's a real melting pot of kind of different, different things on there and I think it's really exciting to see. We, we. We kind of realized a few years ago that we wanted a place that was off social media, that was a place where people could come to that. We had our own sort of feed. So, yeah, we really wanted to make this website a real landing place for people to find creativity, I guess. [01:21:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:49] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's really, it's really great. We've had a little bit of a slower year this year. We decided to. Our event is normally. So APA is the biggest camp initiative we run through Photo Collective and that normally runs sort of from. We open up at about June, May, and then we have a big event in October. And October is just a mental time in the industry and we've been wanting for a few years to change that date. Just there's so much going on in October and so we've done it this year. So this year we, we haven't had the campaign, but we're going to be opening it up in July, January, and we'll have our event in June, in 2026. So it'll be our 10th campaign. So it's a big one. It's 10 years of Australian Photography Awards. So, yeah, we're. We're hoping to do some special things and, and maybe have a bit of an archival celebration of, you know, work that's done well over the years and just celebrate the amazing photography that's in this country. [01:22:52] Speaker A: Yep. A retrospective or a retro collective in this state. [01:22:57] Speaker B: Retro collective. [01:23:00] Speaker A: You can use that. That's yours. You can have it. Bruce has got a question. [01:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah, Bruce just wants to know, how do photographers engage with a photo collective? Something I should have asked in person, but hey, a public space is good too. [01:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:13] Speaker C: Like what? So, so is the awards. Is that sort of the entry point for the. For the average photographer to kind of engage with photo collective? How does it work? [01:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess there's a few different ways. So we do have. So we've got. We have run three different award programs in the past. So we run apa, which is definitely the biggest initiative we have. Bruce. We've been very fortunate enough to see some of Bruce's amazing work in there. And so that is a single image entry competition. We've also run an award called Stories in the Past, which is a project. Project entry competition. So you submit between 6 and 10 images and you have to have a project statement to go with the project and it's all about the project on a whole. And the third is the Australian New Zealand Photo Book Awards. And so that's like. That's actual photo book. So we have these three stages of kind of photography development that you can engage with and then we've got the project directory as well, which. Yeah, because we've had a bit of a quieter year this year. It's, I don't want to say stalled, but it's definitely. There's a, there's been a little pause on it for, for a minute. So it's something that towards the end of this year and beginning of next year, we really want to re. Engage with again and we want to start kind of building that up. So what we'll do is we'll reach out to photographers whose work we really like and I'll ask them to kind of submit some work. But also I think what we'll start doing again at the beginning of next year is we'll put a call out so that if people are interested in submitting work, they can submit a series of images and a little bit of a statement and we can, we can put it out there and start. Yes, start really sharing Australian photography projects again. [01:25:01] Speaker C: The idea of a project statement for someone like me who's not very artistic is terrifying. What, what is a project statement? Say, say in the context of the awards. The story. Awards. [01:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:19] Speaker C: How complex? Like what, what is a project statement? [01:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's sort of, it's a ever moving kind of line, I guess. So project statements can be very lengthy or they can be very concise. I think the most important thing with a statement is to be very authentic. So I think a lot of people, when they're starting to write, especially when you're a visual person, like a photographer, you know it perhaps words don't come as naturally because, you know, you're a visual person. And I think when people start to try and write statements, they sort of feel like they have to speak from this other voice. Voice that's like a. I don't know, an academic voice or like over explaining or, or becoming something they're not. I think the best way to write about your work is as if you were talking about it so really trying to get your own kind of voice across. Some, some statements are very factual. If there's work that's really like. There's a couple of projects on there that are, you know, based Kind of there's an underwater project by Matthew Bagley. There's, there's some nature projects, you know, animal projects that might be more factual because it might be about the ecosystem or the animal life or the facts about what's happening in the environment. Some are really artistic, so it might be more poetic and more of a feeling, emotion and more emotive. So it really is kind of. And, and if it's a documentary project, it could be very factual as well about the, about the topic at hand. So it really, it really is kind of how you want to communicate. What I'd say is it's not really about like, don't over explain the pictures that are in there. Like it's, you don't write to the photographs as in like I'm starting this photo story with a picture of a house and then we look at the people inside and then, you know, it's more about the ideas behind the project and how that's writing can support the imagery rather than go explain the imagery, if you know what I mean. [01:27:24] Speaker C: Does the Photo Collective or any of its, or you or anybody that's sort of orbiting around that part of the world have any support, mentoring, any services like that for people that are, that are kind of looking to step into that world, but they're, you know, a bit daunted by the idea of, of a project statement or how to submit their work or you know, the amazing workshop that you ran at befop, how to curate their images down into a project instead of, instead of a kind of a mishmash of photos. [01:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So through Photo Collective we do mentoring and sessions. There's a Learn tab on our website that you can go to to kind of email us or, or, or send a message to us personally as well? I do that as well. I work with photographers. I can do, I do one on one sessions and just in a, in a one off or in like a three month sort of three session package or a six session package or whatever it is that you're looking for. So. And that can be anything from, you know, talking about the project, talking about work, talking about business, where to put your work out there. So yeah, there are lots of different ways in which you can kind of engage with either me personally or Photo Collective to get support in that area. I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn here, but Chris and I are sort of thinking about doing some more developed workshops as well. That's something that we're on the way back from bfop this year we were thinking, you know, we really enjoy working together like that and I think, think we'd love. We get such great feedback from those amazing people that come to our workshops at BE that I think, you know, we. It would be really great to do something more. So we're hoping that, yeah, in the new year, we're putting something together and maybe we'll have. Yeah. A little workshop, something. But that's very early stages, so I can only imagine. [01:29:33] Speaker C: And I know this, this wouldn't happen because you were both insanely busy, but imagine a, an overseas like, trip workshop around that theme of, of, you know, a project or something like that. So you get your buddy in Cambodia, but you've got your buddy on a motorbike and you've got sort of a project idea blossoming in a direction and curation that'd be. Yeah, I would pay for that. [01:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, well, that's cool. But that's sort of what we did in Cambodia, so it's good to know there's interest out there. [01:30:07] Speaker C: That's. That's very cool. It's a lot deeper than just, hey, we're going to go on a photo tour and take pretty pictures at nice locations. Which is awesome. [01:30:17] Speaker B: Which is also amazing. [01:30:18] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's just, it's just another level if you've sort of got. You're trying to unearth something out of it, I guess. [01:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I got a question about your time. You know, you're running your own photography business and practice, you're doing projects, you've got the photo collective and now you've also got the. Well, not now, you've had it for a while now, but the podcast, which we'll talk about in a little bit more detail in a minute. How do you split your time? Like, what's the rough mix of what percentage you're spending on the podcast versus commercial work versus projects? How does that mix work for you on average? I know it's different every. [01:30:56] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, it's carnage. [01:31:01] Speaker A: There is no time. [01:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really, it's really tricky. Right. It's really kind of hard to compartmentalize everything. And I really try hard to do it and I am getting better as time goes on. But yeah, it's tricky. So I also, I teach at photography studies college, so I teach. I've got, got. I do two full days at the college and then I work half a day at home. So I have half a week teaching there. So that's kind of actually really helped kind of organize My week a lot more because I have to have those days and those hours set. That really helps to. Yeah, I keep everything else a little bit more organized. So, yeah, it. It's tricky. It's. It's. It. I try really hard to kind of. If I'm going to be working on the podcast, then I put that time aside and try not to kind of focus on anything else and, and vice versa. So it, it does mean that sometimes, you know, people wait that extra day for that email response or whatever. But I just find that if I'm trying to do, you know, look at all the emails all the time every day, I. I'm getting really stressed, and I just need to try and be kind to myself and just try and keep it sort of quite organized. [01:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's an interesting point, isn't it? At what point in time did we. Did people decide that an email was just as urgent as a phone call? Yeah, you know, it's that. That whole kind of like, oh, I've got to check my emails every morning and get back to everyone every morning, you know, and it's like they sent you a message. They're obviously prepared to wait, you know, but we. We fallen into this mindset that everything is so critical in an instant. At least I do anyway. That's the problem. [01:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's. It's. We've kind of done this to ourselves, really. And yeah, it's. Yeah, it. It's a challenge. I think that I, I think we all have. And I just try really hard to not like, I put my phone on do not disturb at 7pm it doesn't come off do not disturb until 8am I'm like, I don't need to know that things are happening out there. I try really hard to not even look at socials and stuff during that time, because as much as, you know, that's kind of lovely, it's also work in some ways. And it's just. I just try really hard to kind of like, okay, this is family. Family time, this is work time, this is college time. And then I've tried implementing. This year, I tried to implement Fridays as Harriet Day. And that sort of worked for a while and sometimes doesn't and then sometimes comes back. So, yeah, that. That's the final hurdle to try and get, you know, Harriet time. [01:34:02] Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, and it's tricky, you know, because you're also balancing family life and, you know, chores and shopping and all of those things that take us away from being mindful and just focusing on ourselves. For just a little smidge of time. [01:34:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:34:17] Speaker A: Justin fortunately has more than enough time to think about himself. But I do want to jump to a comment that Brucey just left. What did he say? He says email is answered when I want, not when you need it. [01:34:30] Speaker B: It. [01:34:31] Speaker A: I don't have alerts or anything. That's, that's what I say. Because I suck at communications. At least you're honest. At least you've done that. Self awareness, you know, practice and you know where you suck. Matt, that old design quote, your emergency is not my priority. Yeah, I do like that one. [01:34:50] Speaker B: So true. [01:34:51] Speaker A: There's another one. You know, your, your lack of planning and, and preparation are not my responsibility kind of thing. If it's, if it's really that urgent. [01:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we just got to try really like, you know, schedule the scheduling emails is great. Like don't send me an email on Sunday that just because you're trying to get it out of your head. Like schedule it. If you're writing emails on a Sunday, great. Schedule it for 9am Monday morning. [01:35:20] Speaker C: Yeah, but then also as you say, if they do forget to do that, just don't check your emails on Sunday. [01:35:27] Speaker B: Yes. [01:35:29] Speaker C: If you can help it, if you know that it'll draw your brain into to that world and you can't switch it off, then you have no choice but to block it out for that day. Open it on Monday. [01:35:41] Speaker A: You know the other cool thing. Sorry, Harriet spoke. I was just going to say I just got the new. I'm not gloating, but I just got a new iPhone, the 17 Pro, and first time I've updated in like, like three and a half years. And one of the features that I, when I set it up is that you can, if you're getting calls from unknown numbers or people that are not in your contact list, you can, you can tailor it, but you can set your phone to. When they're trying to contact you, it sends them a text message saying, hi, I'm busy right now, I don't recognize your number. Can I ask what you're calling about? And so the person then has to respond with that, almost like a voicemail has kicked in. And then you get sent that message and you can determine whether you actually do want to answer that call or not. [01:36:26] Speaker C: That is a great idea because if anyone doesn't know this, this is my public service announcement. If you're calling someone who probably doesn't have your number in their phone and you don't leave a message and don't send a follow up Text saying, hey, just Justin here. I was just. I wanted to get in touch about this. This. Yeah, you're not gonna, you're not getting a call back from me. No, that's for sure. Yeah, no, I'm not. [01:36:53] Speaker A: No. [01:36:53] Speaker C: If you want to call back, simple. And it's probably even better like if you don't want to leave a voicemail, just. Yeah, if you get the missed call thing and then just, just shoot a text following up, just being like, hey, it was just, just so and so just calling about this. Give me a call back anytime it's not urgent or it is urgent or whatever. And it really helps. [01:37:11] Speaker B: All the call centers have mobile numbers. [01:37:13] Speaker C: Exactly. [01:37:14] Speaker B: And even when you're waiting on a call from someone that you know is not in your contact and you answer and it's like. And now some of them are AI as well. Hello? [01:37:23] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I, Yeah, I get, I get quite a few calls from unknown numbers and some of them are quite relevant to whatever I'm doing, whether it's for Lucky or something like that. So I tend to answer them. But man, when I hear that, that, that little, that little gap and yeah, the little pause and then some background noise, I feel bad because I know they're just, they're just people working, but they get a very frosty reception and quite a lot of pushback from me. [01:37:57] Speaker B: And it's so hard. [01:37:58] Speaker A: I can't imagine you being frosty to anyone. [01:38:00] Speaker C: Oh, you should hear me, Greg. When they, oh, even, even people that. [01:38:05] Speaker A: So I get whole perception of you. [01:38:07] Speaker C: I get marketing experts calling me from Google and Meta and, and they actually work for Go. They, they. Well, they're contractors, but that's a whole another thing. But, but it is authorized people from Google and Meta calling about, you know, like how to, how to improve your marketing performance on our platform. And their whole. This is, it's been a massive thing. I've been advertising on Google for 14 years and same time for Meta. So like I'm, I'm not a newbie. Most of these people have only been in the job for a year or two. [01:38:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:42] Speaker C: And the other thing is too. So they'll give you an account executive they called or a marketing expert and they change them every three months. So every three months I get a phone call with no email prior from an unknown number and they're like, are you logged into your Google Ads account? I'd like to go over some, some ways you can improve your thing. And I'm like, no, no, no, but, but also, yeah, like they're just. They just interrupt your day and they're like, oh, but don't you want better performance? And then. And then I'm like, all right, fine, I'm in front of my computer. Let's do this. And then the first thing they say is, so, what sort of business do you have? I'm like. I'm like, dude, I've been advertising marketing Expert, like, for 13 years. This same business has been running for 11 years. This exact, exact same business. So, okay, so I see you're a e commerce business. What's the goal of the marketing campaign? What do you think it is? [01:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:40] Speaker C: This is a new. It's actually. It's a. It's a personal creative project I'm working on. What do you think the goal is? Leave me alone. Anyway, so let's. Let's get back to photography. It actually happened yesterday, so it's all quite fresh. [01:39:59] Speaker B: It's a raw voice. [01:40:01] Speaker C: It's just bubbling under the surface. I couldn't help it. It just had to come out. And this podcast is. It's my outlet. [01:40:10] Speaker A: We're here for you, Justin. We're here for you. [01:40:12] Speaker C: Okay, so we ticked off how to manage many different facets of life and project projects. I have a question. Did we? [01:40:20] Speaker A: Because I'm still just as confused. [01:40:22] Speaker C: I have a question. You said earlier in the show that creative or artists, that they're quite heavy words, and you've only recently started calling yourself an artist. [01:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:37] Speaker C: How does one become an artist? [01:40:41] Speaker A: That's a great question. [01:40:44] Speaker B: I don't think you become an artist. I think you just are really, like, I think we're all creative in our own ways. I think I still find the word artist a little. Like, for me, I find that, yeah, definitely creative. Artist is. Yeah, it's a weighted word. It is, I think. Like, it's not like there's a club and then finally you get there. Like, we're all. All artists in our own ways, you know, like, all, like just the three of us here, we're all. We're all creating. We're all artists in our own ways. We. We've all kind of. We're all making work and putting it out there. So I think it. It's just a bit of a. Like, the art world has this kind of, like, notoriety, I suppose, but. But I don't think it's like a club that you. You get into after you've done a certain amount. Amount of, you know, jobs or a certain amount of work creation. Like, I think we're all there. It's just how we want to define what we do. [01:41:48] Speaker A: And is that all it is? Is it just that language defines barriers that, you know, for whatever reason align with class structure or people's perception of class structures? You know, art's always been. Not always, but often art is associated with high art. [01:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:03] Speaker A: Ballet and dance instead of dance and, you know, the orchestras instead of going to see a band. Well, the orchestra is an artistic thing and the band is a. You know, it's not. And I think there's a lot of. There's a lot of barriers that still need to be broken down around art and around that word art. [01:42:21] Speaker B: Yes. [01:42:22] Speaker A: Because like I said, I think. I think it is weighted. There is. There's a lot of. There's a lot attached to it. [01:42:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:28] Speaker A: Socially and, and all those sorts of elements. But. But yeah, yeah. I mean, I've always considered myself. Sorry, you go. [01:42:37] Speaker B: No, no, no. [01:42:38] Speaker A: I was just gonna say I've always considered myself an artist, but I've always had trouble owning that label. And you know, and sometimes it's, you know, I wasn't raised in a particularly art supportive household. You know, there was a lot of expectation to go and be a career person like my brother, but we won't get into that now. We don't have time for therapy. But you know what I mean, like, it started a very young age about how your family talks to you about art or appreciates art or. And I think that'll. That defines how you see it and, and those barriers, perhaps. [01:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. I think, you know, and photography itself, like, you know, we. As a medium, it was never, it was the kind of the. Not even the little brother, but it was the like, distant cousin of what painting used to be. You know, when photography came out, it was kind of like, that's not true art. You know, it's not an art form. It. It's something else. You know, it was. Painting was the art form a sculpture was. And. And then it was, you know, digital photography came out and it wasn't film photography, you know, it wasn't true photography. And now, you know, we're in this AI age that's like, you know, that's not photography. And maybe that's not. But, you know, that's digital. Some, you know, that's digital art. And is that real, real art? You know, I think it's. It's all create. Like if you're creating, you're making art, you're making. You're an artist. You know, my husband is a chef. He's an artist. He makes these beautiful meals and, you know, plates them up in these amazing ways. You know, he would never call himself an artist, but, you know, he's creating art in many ways. And I think, like, any. Any sort of creation that you have that you make week, you know, it's just about how you want to kind of. Yeah. Talk about yourself and define yourself, I guess. [01:44:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a really good point. [01:44:30] Speaker C: So. [01:44:32] Speaker A: I was just going to bring up Matt's comment. Sorry. [01:44:34] Speaker C: Okay, okay. [01:44:36] Speaker A: Hold that thought. Just, just. [01:44:37] Speaker C: I got it. [01:44:38] Speaker A: I can see you're excited. Your little cheeks are glowing. A lot of people associate the term artist with a level of quality, but it's not there. Can never be bad art, good art, great art, but all things are just as worthy of the title art and artist. Yeah, it's a good. It's a good perspective, Matt. [01:44:59] Speaker C: I just want to know, Harriet, what changed to get you to the point where you would refer to yourself as an artist, where you previously wouldn't? What changed within you or. Yeah. In your work? [01:45:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think I. Because it's really only just been in the last few years. Like, I would say that even five years ago, I wouldn't have referred to myself like that, but I think in the last few years, I've made more work that's personal to me. And I think, like, although that was always there inside me, I think I hadn't done that. That for so long that now that I've sort of started making that work, even though I actually haven't really put it out into the world like it does, I haven't had an exhibition for a long time. I haven't made a photo book. Like, there's not been much of an output. I. Because I've kind of been creating and I can see kind of things unfolding, even if it's slow. I think that's given me maybe, like, I know I'm making, I know I'm creating, and therefore I know. Yeah, I'm. I can kind of feel like, more comfortable with that label, I guess. [01:46:16] Speaker A: And is that maybe what it is, is that, you know, when you finally decide that you. Or realize you're an artist, it's because you've. You've developed a mindset and a level of mindfulness where creation is a priority to you. [01:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe. Or where even if it's not a priority, it. It's something that is part of you. Maybe, you know, because I think. Yeah, priority for me, it sounds like that's the first thing that I'm doing and it's definitely not, but it's definitely a priority in that it's something that I want to be doing and it's part of what I, what I'm doing. And I think also like, maybe just this, like even having conversations like this and, and breaking down that idea of that like old fashioned idea of what an art artist is, you know, like I don't associate myself as an artist that is like going to be on the walls of ngv, you know, that that's not how I associate myself necessarily. [01:47:15] Speaker A: Early days, Harriet. Early days. [01:47:18] Speaker B: Not so early, but I better get moving if that's. But I think, think like, you know, just like changing the definition of what that artist is for myself. Like I, I don't see it as like an antiquated sort of stuffy idea anymore. I just see it as me sitting here at my desk looking out into the garden, you know, editing some stuff and going, oh, yeah, I'm really happy with that. I spent some time creating today and you know, that's. [01:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:47:49] Speaker B: That part of my art practice. [01:47:52] Speaker A: Yep. [01:47:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:54] Speaker A: Well said. [01:47:55] Speaker C: David dear Parker says a Time magazine arts editor once described my work as grittily artless. [01:48:02] Speaker B: Oh. Oh, well, if David's work is artless, we're all good for any of us. [01:48:11] Speaker C: Well, yeah, my goal would. To be not an artist then I think. [01:48:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:48:18] Speaker C: How do we achieve that? [01:48:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd make a great tattoo. Grifly, artless. [01:48:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:48:24] Speaker C: Oh, that would make a great T shirt. [01:48:28] Speaker A: And then put David Deer Parker on underneath as a quote. [01:48:31] Speaker C: Yeah, Atlas. I like it. So I thought I would ask Chat GPT while we've been talking. And Chat GPT says at its core, an artist is someone who creates with intention. True or false? [01:48:55] Speaker A: No, I think it's wrong. There may be intention, but there's also a, there's also a, an intrinsic ability that sometimes people just create art without even thinking. Sometimes people can shut off everything and create art without being intentional. Yeah, yeah, it's tricky. [01:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I get it. [01:49:16] Speaker C: Is, is accidental. Is accidental, brilliant art, still art. [01:49:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Because you still had everything that led up to that point that influenced your life. You know, you don't, you don't arrive at that canvas as a newborn or as a, you know, as a completely blank canvas yourself. You arrive with experience and trauma and, and, and happiness and love and all of those things, but, you know, build up to where you are at that point when you create art. [01:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I think maybe the intention is not in that sentence. Chat GPT is not necessarily the intention to create something amazing, but the intention to create. So. So perhaps, like, yeah, going out and being mindful and just having your camera and occasionally making a picture. There's not a huge amount of, like, intention for the end product, but there's intention to just make. [01:50:13] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. And maybe a part of that is the surprise and delight that we individually experience when we realize that that unintentional creativity actually led to something beautiful. [01:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:50:28] Speaker A: Just as much a part of that experience. [01:50:30] Speaker C: Is this fun? Can we continue it on? Because there's more. [01:50:33] Speaker B: More? [01:50:33] Speaker A: Yeah, go on, go on. [01:50:35] Speaker C: All right. A regular photographer captures what's in front of them. An artist decides why to capture something and what they want the viewer to feel. False. [01:50:46] Speaker A: False. What do you think, Harriet? [01:50:52] Speaker B: I think it's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's necessarily true. It's too black and white. These are two. [01:50:59] Speaker C: Black and white. I was gonna say it's probably like a good rule of thumb of like, hey, a lot of great photographers, artists do that, that they're doing it with intention. They're deciding why they want to make this work. And they do probably have an idea of what they want the viewer to feel, either before the shot's taken, almost certainly after, when they curated into an exhibition or a book or something like that. Definitely. It's probably quite. But it's not a 100% rule. It's just. It's like that, that. That is quite common amongst great artists, that they're doing that as part of their practice, but it's certainly not. It doesn't mean that if you didn't do that, that your work is an art. [01:51:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Exactly. [01:51:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:51:41] Speaker C: ChatGPT. It's very deep. It's not nuanced, but it is a thing. Is ChatGPT art? No, I mean, it was created with intention. [01:51:57] Speaker B: No, it's technology, and it's technology art. I mean, maybe. [01:52:02] Speaker A: What can be. Yeah, maybe. Oh, that's sad. We've all just realized that AI is art. [01:52:11] Speaker C: I mean, is our intro song art? [01:52:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that's art. [01:52:19] Speaker B: You can't simulation, though, can you? [01:52:22] Speaker A: But it's a simulation of art. It's not. [01:52:24] Speaker C: That's right. [01:52:25] Speaker A: It's forced art. A bunch of Jamaicans showed up in. In Bendigo and said, hey, dude, can we. Can we write you a theme song for your podcast? You know, we've got some great ideas. It's. It's harvested, you know, thousands. Hundreds of thousands of thoughts about what. What good reggae music should sound like, you know, well, here's what I think you want to listen to. [01:52:48] Speaker B: But then did you like. So for the. That musical intro, did you. Did how many prompt did you put many prompts in to get it to that point? [01:52:57] Speaker C: Is an art a matter of how many prompts you give something? [01:53:01] Speaker A: Is it. [01:53:04] Speaker B: So the AI is giving you something. So maybe that's not the art. But then you're prompting in a way that is creating something that I did. [01:53:13] Speaker C: I did write about a paragraph of what I wanted. So it was, it was a more than a one line prompt, but it wasn't super detailed. And then I actually tried to refine it and it got worse. And I found that with most, most AI that I've used so far, yeah, it's often it's first, sometimes second, but attempt at something is the best. And then the more you try to refine it, the more confused it gets and it ends up spitting out garbage. It's quite bizarre. [01:53:40] Speaker A: I think there's an arrogance in it that thinks it got it right the first time and then it reluctantly drags it heels to comply with what you actually want. [01:53:47] Speaker C: It's like the graphic designer that unveils the beautiful like logo for the business and then every time the business is like, hey, can you change this? They're like, you're making it worse. Yeah, you suck. But fine, if you want that bit to be red, I'll make it red. But I'm going to make it look sh. Because I, I hate the fact that you're changing what I thought was a beautiful logo. [01:54:11] Speaker A: Who do you think you are? [01:54:14] Speaker C: Maybe it is. It's just a sassy graphic designer. Yeah. [01:54:18] Speaker A: Let me just jump to a couple of. Couple of quick comments. So Lucinda said Jim song really is art. Have we got a little clip of Jim's song there? [01:54:25] Speaker C: I do. Harry doesn't want to hear Jim's song. [01:54:27] Speaker A: Yeah, go on. It's just, just a few bars. Just a few bars. [01:54:30] Speaker C: It takes. Takes too long to get into. Where is it? [01:54:32] Speaker A: All right, while you're doing that, Rodney Nicholson. G', day, Rodney. I felt confident, comfortable and making a stand for photography as an art form. And we love you for it. And finally, from Matt, Time magazine gave Donald Trump two time person of the Year. [01:54:48] Speaker C: Really? [01:54:49] Speaker A: As well as. Yeah, he's been on twice as well as Putin, George W. And Reagan, Nixon, Stalin. I've almost read Satan then was pretty close. And Hitler. They've all been on it. [01:55:01] Speaker C: Hang on. Stalin. Hang on. Which. How many. Which ones are. Those are jokes. Which ones are Those are jokes, Matt. And which ones? [01:55:07] Speaker A: I don't think. I don't think the time was around when Stalin was doing his bit, was it? I don't know. I don't know. [01:55:13] Speaker C: Anyway, that's a impressive roster that they've pulled together for person of the Year, though. That's. It's quite wonderful. Here we go. Oh, do we really want anyway or just a couple of bars of gym? So, but. So this. This AI music program that we use that come up as a joke to start with. Have you ever played with any of that sort of stuff, Harriet? Have you played. [01:55:35] Speaker B: No, I haven't actually. I'm a bit of a AI novice. Well, complete. Yeah, complete. [01:55:43] Speaker A: I'm fairly. I'm fairly anti. [01:55:44] Speaker C: I hate it. But I also. I'm trying them all and it is that they do have quite amazing tools for some things, that's for sure. [01:55:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually don't hate it and I think there's actually some quite amazing things coming out of it, but I just haven't used it myself. [01:56:02] Speaker A: Yeah, fair enough. [01:56:04] Speaker C: But yeah, this. This music one, it's called Suno, I think. And yeah, you just. You just throw in a bit of a prompt or whatever, what style of music you want and how upbeat you want to be or whatever, and it just. This is the one that spat out about Jim, who's normally on the podcast, who obviously there's quite a lot of jokes about Jim's. He's a photographer, I think. [01:56:23] Speaker B: Did I meet him at. Before? [01:56:24] Speaker A: Yeah, you would have. [01:56:25] Speaker C: You did, yeah. [01:56:25] Speaker A: You did, yeah. [01:56:27] Speaker C: He wears flannel shirts all the time and we make jokes about him being a gardener or whatever because Jim's photography, you know, like Jim. Jim's mowing. [01:56:35] Speaker A: Jim's mowing. [01:56:36] Speaker C: But yeah, it just. It, like it could just spit out whatever you want within a minute and it's quite. Yeah, it's always earworm. Catchy songs. Rose up in his flannel pride. [01:56:51] Speaker A: Green. [01:56:51] Speaker C: Trailer hitch gear inside. Anyway, I won't. I won't submit you to the whole thing, but. [01:56:57] Speaker B: But it's. [01:56:58] Speaker C: That's the sad part is they're always. It's like they're funny. I've actually got one. I've got one lingering about different camera brands too, that I've made. I'm waiting for the right time to unleash it, but it's got all the camera brands in there and I didn't. I like, told it about a couple of things, but the rest of it, it's pulled from the Internet and it's surprisingly on point about what each camera brand and their user is like, if you get what I mean. It's quite funny. [01:57:28] Speaker A: Didn't Glenn Lavender use one for his beef op talk up on stage? [01:57:31] Speaker C: Did you see that? [01:57:33] Speaker A: He made a Glenn Lavender song. [01:57:35] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:57:35] Speaker C: It was. [01:57:36] Speaker B: I think I called the end of his talk, but not. Yeah, yeah. [01:57:39] Speaker A: He played the song at the end as well. [01:57:40] Speaker C: Well as well. Yeah, it's. It was like a full. And he stood up there just with the song for three minutes, just dancing like. And what. And pointing to himself and what style. It'd be like a show tune style about like the one and only Glenn Lavender. Yeah. And he's like running stage and just. It was anyway entertaining. Anyway, back to. Back to you. So hang on, none of those are jokes. Even Hitler, really? No. [01:58:14] Speaker A: Yeah, probably. Okay. [01:58:17] Speaker C: That'S controversial. [01:58:20] Speaker B: Thanks. Time. [01:58:24] Speaker C: So back to. Back to you and your photography. What was, what was studying? Like, how did that go? Like, like, did you enjoy. How many years did you study photography? [01:58:35] Speaker B: Two years in the uk. Yeah, it was amazing. I had a really great time. I. I studied from. I was 24 when I started, so I was. I didn't go to uni straight out of school. I kind of traveled a lot first and then I. Yeah, I was 24. I thought I was much more mature and ready to go back to study, but it turns out I still partied all the time. I love it. [01:59:04] Speaker C: The party continues. [01:59:06] Speaker B: Oh, I'm not mature at all. I'm just still crazy. Yeah, so that was. It was a lot of fun. I think I spent a lot of time in the dark room, so it was the mid noughties and so digital was just coming out in a bigger way and I learned a little bit of Photoshop, a little bit of digital, but mainly just spent a lot of time in the dark room and I love that. I had a really great time and met, you know, some really lifelong friends and. Yeah, it was, it was really fantastic. I had, I had a great time. I think, you know, I probably. I think the older I've got, I was never great at education when I was younger. I didn't do great when I was at high school and even at college I, you know, I did okay, but it was more about the experience of it all. I think now I would really love to go back and study again to just really. I feel like I really get into it now. I think I'm finally at a point where I really actually like learning. [02:00:12] Speaker C: I think that is one of those things you see when, when you get to be our age or older and more smarter. You look at kids and you're like, man, you just don't even. You don't even care, do you? You just don't even care. You just. Yeah, just waiting for the weekend and everyone was like that. But it's. [02:00:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I tell my kids, don't grow up. It's a trap. [02:00:34] Speaker C: Like, just enjoy. [02:00:36] Speaker A: Just enjoy. Yeah, but also, trust me, but also. [02:00:40] Speaker C: Like, there's so much you could learn in. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if university is a little bit outdated or a little bit broken or something like that, but it's like you could learn so much in such a short amount of. Of time if you were excited about the subjects you were learning. As opposed to, like, this is what I'm doing because that's what I was kind of guided into after year 12. But I actually really just want to just breathe for a minute. So I'm not going to go to most of my classes and I'm just going to phone it in. [02:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. [02:01:16] Speaker A: Sorry, you go, please. [02:01:19] Speaker B: I think the idea of kind of going. I mean, I actually think the schooling system's not quite right, but I think the idea of going on to uni straight after high school is crazy. Like, for some people, yeah, it's great. And if you want to, if you have a real trajectory, then that's great. But this idea of just like. Like, my son's just about to finish primary six and it feels like. Like he's been at school all his life and then he's about to go into another school and his whole child, like, you can. I can really see it, like, looking from, you know, adult to looking at the child. I'm just like. Like, he's like, I hate school. And I'm like, yeah, no wonder, like, you have to do this thing every day of your little life. And, you know, you have to do that all your life because you have to work. And we make them do it when they're kids. And then for the. For them to finish high school and it'd be like, right, what are you gonna do at uni now? I just think. I think it's wild and, you know, like I said, if that's your pathway, fine. But I would never make him go to uni straight after high school if he wasn't ready. Like, he needs to go. You need to find out what you. [02:02:19] Speaker A: Want to do, need to work out who you are. [02:02:22] Speaker C: I'm gonna say this is wild. Even wilder than what you're saying, but I don't want anyone to take this the right. Yeah, Dennis is. Dennis is here. Hey, Dennis. Wow, this is wild. Even wilder than what you were saying is. And all respect to them because someone's got to do it. And I think it's possibly one of the hardest jobs in the world, but being a teacher straight out of. So straight out of high school into uni, to be a teacher straight into teaching, I don't know how they do it. That is insane to me. [02:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but. [02:02:52] Speaker C: But more power to them, the people that are able to pull that off. But yeah, if that was my career path, I would at least be having a couple of years of. Of just like, working in a bar or something, you know, like, just, like, just. Just have a little. [02:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Go study overseas or. [02:03:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sure a lot of them probably do travel. Yeah. [02:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah, because. [02:03:12] Speaker C: Because, yeah, straight back into that sort of system. Obviously you're on the other side of the system, but you're back into that same kind of environment, and it would. Yeah, I just. I. Oh, I couldn't do it. But anyway, good on you teachers you're doing. It's the same with doing the work. [02:03:27] Speaker A: It's the same as travel. Like, we were talking about people that go from, you know, from primary, secondary straight into tertiary, straight into employment. You know, that's kind of the path I took. And it wasn't until I was. When did I go overseas first? Like, 2010 was the first time I went overseas, you know, some, you know, 40 years later. And I regret not being able to do it when I was younger. You know, I regret not having that. I mean, there's. There's obviously a lot of parental pressures and all those sort of things that go on, but I think. I think travel is one of the best teachers about life. [02:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like for me, you know, I. I kind of went off the rails a little bit, and I. I spent my 20s traveling a lot and just having a very good time. And yeah, I did. I did study in there as well, which was great. But, yeah, it was pretty loose. And sometimes I think back and I go, oh, that was a whole decade where I was kind of behind a little bit, maybe, but you never. You never get your 20s back, you know, your 20s. This golden kind of decade where you don't have any responsibilities. You don't have to. Like, for most of us, obviously, this is generalizing, but, you know, there is this time where you can be kind of quite free and to. To just find out who you are. And meet loads of people and see the world and, you know, do. Do whatever you want to do. And I. I think as much as sometimes I think, oh, maybe I should have kind of got to it a little bit quicker, you know, I. I'll never regret kind of just like, you know, making the most of that, because life comes up pretty quickly and suddenly you're in your mid-40s and you, you know, got kids going through school and you're, you know, well and truly, like, running all the businesses and trying to get eight hours sleep a night, and it's like, okay, that's. That happened really quickly. [02:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. [02:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:23] Speaker A: Like I said, don't grow up. It's a trap. Crap. [02:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:25] Speaker C: I'm trying not to. [02:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:05:27] Speaker C: I'm trying not to do my best. [02:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:05:31] Speaker C: Should we. Well, after I read this comment, should we have a look at a little bit of your work on your website, maybe to finish? Oh, yeah. [02:05:39] Speaker A: Harriet takes photos. Yeah. [02:05:41] Speaker C: Since you take photos and whatnot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you think after I. After I pull up this comment from Dennis that says, I started traveling and learning at 40, like a teenager, and I'm in the thick of it now at 54, so Dennis is in his 20s. You were never too old to learn. But you see it through way more into. Onto it. [02:06:01] Speaker A: What? [02:06:02] Speaker C: But you see it through way more onto it. Eyes. The first bit was really. [02:06:10] Speaker B: The first bit was mature eyes or something. Yeah, yeah. [02:06:14] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. Through more mature eyes. Yes. That's exactly what that's supposed to say. YouTube is pretty bad at autocorrecting to the wrong words. It happens to me all the time. [02:06:23] Speaker B: That's great. And isn't it wonderful? Like, we all have, like, live our lives in different ways and have different perspectives and, you know, I am like, yeah. So glad that that's, you know, living your life at this point, because that's amazing. [02:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:06:40] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Let's have a look. Let's have a look at some of your work. [02:06:45] Speaker B: Oh, God. My website is really old and it's not. Not very. [02:06:48] Speaker A: We can all say that. Don't worry. We all say it. Everyone that comes on says it. [02:06:52] Speaker B: You know, I actually just did. I realized about two months ago, I did a camera club talk and I realized I hadn't touched my website for about six years. And so I spent like. I know, like, it was. It's out of control. And then so I spent, like a couple of hours just throwing some stuff on. So it's better than it was two months ago, but it's really not great. So please don't judge me, everyone. [02:07:14] Speaker C: Okay, well, I've had a bit of a click around, but I'd like. So if we were going to have a look at a personal project with you, which one should we have a look at, do you think? [02:07:23] Speaker B: Probably that top one. Is this not freedom? [02:07:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:07:28] Speaker B: So. Because I think we've been talking about this a lot in this podcast. So this is kind of where I started photographing my son kind of during those lockdown years, I guess. And this is a very small edit of the series and it's actually not really, you know, I'm all about like narrative and sequencing and it's really not that secret. [02:07:48] Speaker C: This is like, this is the, the mechanics car. You're like, oh, it's hard. It's hard to start, but I just haven't had a chance to. To get onto it. [02:07:57] Speaker B: Anyway. Yeah. So just. I'll stop making excuses. But yeah, I guess this is kind of like all work that's shot with different film cameras. Different, like whether it be point and shoots, whether it be, you know, medium format cameras, like, this was taken with a disposable camera. So as you can see, it's all like, nothing's been edited. It's all just, you know, the scans have come into, you know, been scanned and then I've just put them up. So nothing is kind of fixed up really. It's all just as is and it's all. I guess the idea behind it was I started photographing when there was a lot of language during those lockdown years of like, you know, we're trapped and we're not free and, and you know, it made me sort of think about my childhood and the freedom I had travel, traveling the world. But then it also sort of made me think about, you know, that, that, that had its, you know, as much as that was amazing, it also had a lot of, you know, like, I never had a single place where I grew up. I was always moving on and always making new friends and having to start new schools and, you know, that made me a very resilient person. But I kind of looked at my son and was like, he's living. Lived in the same house. All his life. He's been in the same neighborhood. And there was a real freedom that I saw in that, in him, that he had this kind of real comfortable kind of nature and he just knew his place, he knew where he was, he knew his community, he knew his people. And in this kind of time of turmoil and change and, you know, there's there was like we had family across the other side of the world in the UK and, and we couldn't see them. And I was sort of thinking why did we ever do that? Why did people travel? Like, why are we so distant from everyone we know and we can't get back to them now? And yeah, so these were all the ideas kind of around how I was photographing around Jack and then kind of making lots of portraits of him and in his home and also just in our kind of, you know, in our radius basically. And there's some, some pictures that are a little outside of the radius on the tiny times that we were able to kind of go a little bit further. But mostly this is sort of all taken sort of just around home and, and documenting kind of his experience and taken with those kind of cameras that give a bit of a nostalgic feel like they could have been made, you know, in my childhood era because they're all made with kind of film cameras that are kind of slightly broken and you know, everything's kind of. Some things are a bit overexposed, some things are under. Some things are, you know, there's light leaks and, and, and it could be that kind of photo album that you could have pulled out from, you know, your, your grandmother who's chopping heads off. So. Yeah, I guess that's the kind of. Yeah. Background to it. [02:10:49] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a real cinematic quality to this. [02:10:54] Speaker C: Series. [02:10:57] Speaker A: Which I love. It adds whimsy and, and mystery. [02:11:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. It's that sort of filmic vibe that kind of. [02:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:06] Speaker B: It is still like. [02:11:08] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Like you're not quite sure where in time it is. Like you were saying, this could have been your childhood era. This, you know, it could be yesterday. [02:11:15] Speaker C: And. [02:11:16] Speaker A: And on that note, I'm a huge fan of, of disposable cameras. [02:11:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:11:21] Speaker A: You know, when it, every time I went to Japan I'd pick up a couple just from a family mart while I was there and just snap away and I just chuck them back in my, in my carry on luggage. And if they got scanned and it didn't work, if they got, you know, X rayed and it didn't work out, well, so be it. But some of some of my favorite images were shot on those because it was just such a different look. [02:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:11:39] Speaker A: And a different experience to shooting digital. So yeah, always recommend people just grab a digital, sorry, disposable camera and just. [02:11:48] Speaker B: Have a crack at it and it's so easy. Like they're so. And they come out pretty much like, okay, you know, like, they're never gonna be like a digital camera, but, like, everything's pretty exposed and, you know, it's. It's just really easy way to kind of get into that film side of life. [02:12:02] Speaker A: Most definitely. [02:12:05] Speaker C: Can we maybe as a topic. Because we've. We've kept you here for two hours, so if you need to go, just yell out. But there's. There's maybe a final topic to chat about. Can we talk about, like, curation and sequencing and. And stuff like that? A little bit. [02:12:20] Speaker B: Bit. [02:12:21] Speaker C: You know, you mentioned this. This isn't how you would say if this was going to be a feature in a magazine or something like that, that you would potentially put some more work into the order of the images and which images exactly. Because, yeah, they are beautiful images, but I would love to know sort of things like, so how do you decide that this image makes it into this particular set. Set or whatever, or any. Or any of the images? And then also what importance does sequencing play as, is in what order the images are viewed in and that kind of thing. [02:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess for the. For this. And like, I'll just talk about them on here. Like. Like I said. Yeah, it's not. There was obviously some kind of order that I put them in, but it was, you know, I would work at the. A little bit harder if I was to kind of. Of put it out into the world. And maybe I should do that. I wanted to create, like, it is about Jack, so. And really it's about Jack, but it's also about, like, myself and that, like this kind of nostalgic feel. So there's a lot of portraits of him in it. So this is a really. I think it's a quite a strong image as an opener. And it's. It's, I think opening with something that's like, really broken or really light leaked or really kind of technically, like, not amazing, would probably be quite discerning for the first one, I think this one, although there's a big. I think there's actually a big thumbprint in the middle of the lens on this one, but I think it's kind of. It feels quite whimsical. It feels like there's. We know that there's a hero character. There's also kind of like this idea of landscape and. And being within the scene. So I think it's like quite a good establishing photo to open up a series because we sort of feel like we've got an understanding of like, maybe this kind of like. I think that Softness of the thumbprint gives it this kind of, like, soft feeling of storytelling maybe. [02:14:30] Speaker C: I had no idea that that's what we. What thought. Yeah, I. I hadn't really thought too much ahead of, like, about the softness of it. [02:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [02:14:39] Speaker C: That quality. I had no idea it was a thumbprint. [02:14:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I didn't really until, you know, I realized that the second roll of film had it all as well. But then I was like, you know what? I like it. I kind of, like, like it. I had no idea outside. And then he's actually quite sort of blurry. And so you kind of like, feel like he's kind of like the. Although he's the center of the frame, he's not necessarily the center of kind of the feeling or something. And. [02:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:15:12] Speaker B: I don't know. Accidents happen, and I kind of like to roll into them and it's. [02:15:17] Speaker C: And it. And it's art. [02:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess, like, then you follow it with something that's, like, not another portrait. You want to kind of like. Like build sort. Sort of storyline. So this is, like. I feel like this is very Australian. Like, we know where we are. It's grounded in, like, Australiana. There's this movement in there, like this kind of like, wind in the trees. So maybe there's a sense of this kind of, like, idea of freedom I'm trying to talk about or trying to capture or this time. This idea of passing. Time passing, life passing. I don't know. But. Yeah, kind of like bringing some kind of, like, detail. Landscape. And then I guess from there, it's sort of like trying to. Yeah. Kind of like, play with the ideas that I'm like. So, again, like, this one, it. It kind of feels similar to the one before for me in a way that there's this movement and there's this kind of like the. The last one, there's like, this wind through the trees. And this one, there's this movement of Jack through the. The. Through the frame. You know, it's obviously. And, like, you get this, you know, so we see our character again now. We really know it's about this. This character. [02:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:16:28] Speaker B: But there's this kind of movement that I could. You can still feel that kind of follows on from the last one. Yeah. [02:16:36] Speaker C: Dennis, this comment was about the first image, but it also kind of applies to this one that it. That it's dreamy, feels like a memory. They are really sharp, but the emotion the image creates can be razor sharp. [02:16:47] Speaker B: Shop. Oh, yeah. That's what. Yeah, it kind of feel I guess, like, by taking away all those technicalities, you're kind of left with something that's, like, more emotive. Maybe. Or maybe that's just the way I try and say it, because I can't photograph properly. [02:17:06] Speaker A: Oh, please. [02:17:07] Speaker C: You can, certainly. Probably. [02:17:10] Speaker A: I think that's a fair point, Harriet. I think it is. [02:17:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:17:13] Speaker A: But it doesn't have to be technically. Technically brilliant for it to be a good photo. [02:17:18] Speaker C: And it allows you. Allows the viewer to not. Not be hunting for, like, what was the focal point of this image and. And blah, blah, blah, and more just about what. What's. How does it feel? How does the overall image, just the scene feel? [02:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, I guess, like, bringing in detail shots that, like, this could be any. Like. So hopefully, if a viewer is looking at the this, like, so many of us have probably experienced something like this. You know, we're lying in a field or lying in the nature, like, whether it's with your family or friends when you were younger, legs all over each other, you know, so you're trying to, like, bring the viewer in a bit and find their own experience. So you're not necessarily showing faces that really make it somebody's life story. You're kind of showing moments that the viewer can interject themselves into. [02:18:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, it draws me in and it makes me think of. [02:18:07] Speaker C: Of. [02:18:08] Speaker A: Of, you know, times where I've been out and about in nature. And you can feel that grass against your legs, that tall grass. It's not quite sharp, but it's. It's prickly and it creates a sensation of discomfort, but you can't get into it. Yeah, it's really powerful. [02:18:27] Speaker C: I like this one. [02:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. [02:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a few fairgroundy stuff. I think fairgrounds are very like, like, like they feel so nostalgic. Like, it feels like a time, you know, long ago. You know, there's something very. Yeah. Nostalgic. So that's why they sort of appear. You know, it's something that kids love, but it feels like it could, you know, it could be from any other era. So there's a lot of that that comes through. [02:18:54] Speaker C: I. I took some shots at the. The Bendigo show just a couple of weeks ago. I went with my nephew and he. He took my camera. I let him use my camera on the way in and the way out, but not during, because the rides and whatnot. And he had a great time. And, yes, it is very nostalgic. Everything's old looking. [02:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:13] Speaker C: But you know, what's not Nostalgic. The prices. [02:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:19:18] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [02:19:21] Speaker B: It's so true. [02:19:22] Speaker C: It's gotten out of control. It's like 20 bucks to put. [02:19:26] Speaker B: Put. [02:19:26] Speaker C: To put balls in a clown's mouth. As much as that might sound like a good deal to some people, these are just ping pong balls. [02:19:35] Speaker B: Not. Anyway. [02:19:38] Speaker A: So not teabagging. I was going to say 20 bucks is pretty good. [02:19:44] Speaker C: Gosh. Our podcast, this highbrow. This is. We are. This is an art. [02:19:48] Speaker A: We are artists. This is. That was an artful statement. We're all we are. [02:19:53] Speaker C: I love. I love this. I love this scene through the car window because I feel like that's. I feel like that's. So many parents have experienced something similar to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Y. [02:20:08] Speaker B: And that's like, you know, my son, we're on the way back from somewhere, and he's feeling sick, and he's like, I need to stop. And then he's having a big kind of sulk on the side of the road, and I'm like, just get back. Back in the car. And I'm like. Then I'm like, okay, I'm going to take a picture. [02:20:21] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I'll show you. [02:20:24] Speaker B: Are you okay, honey? Snap. [02:20:29] Speaker A: Matt has clipped that quote. It's about 20 bucks to put balls into a clown's mouth. Justin Castle, we need that on a T shirt. [02:20:35] Speaker C: You all knew what I meant. I was blown away. [02:20:39] Speaker A: I don't know what you do over there in Bendigo. Who knows what goes on? [02:20:43] Speaker C: Oh, dear. Oh, yes. The empty basketball courts. [02:20:50] Speaker B: Plastic chairs. Yeah. [02:20:54] Speaker C: Is this it? Was this a usual haunt for you guys during this time? [02:20:58] Speaker B: Just down the road from where. Well, where we used to live as of last week. Yeah. So this is the local. You know, this is the local park kind of thing. Yeah, local park, local haunt. We've walked around it 10,000, you know, times before, if not more, Right. From when Jack was being pushed around to walking around to running around. [02:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Quiet time. [02:21:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:21:31] Speaker B: Pardon? [02:21:32] Speaker A: I said sorry. Quiet time. [02:21:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:21:35] Speaker B: This is one that's like, really, I think, like, it's completely soft, obviously. It's just, you know, there's no. I've completely missed the sharp point there. But I just love it so much, and I just think it's just. Again, it's like what we were talking about before with that emotion. And actually, I've actually had this printed, and it was in a group exhibition, and I thought, oh, it's going to be, like, pretty rough printing this. Like, it's gonna, like, actually look. Make it look worse. But, and it was big. It was like, you know, a meter wide print. And it looks amazing. It look. It looked amazing printed. It looked really, like much better than digitally. I think digitally, sometimes we look at things and like, we can really see like the pixels. Whereas in a print, once that ink sort of soaks into the paper, like, everything's a lot more forgiving. And yes, it still looks kind of soft, but it fee. It sort of feels soft rather than it looking like it's missed its sharp point. [02:22:36] Speaker A: Yep. And I think with this shot, especially like Dennis said, it, it feels like a memory. It feels like a memory that I've had as a child growing up, being sick on the couch or just tired or had a day off home from school. So I'm watching some table. Whatever it is, is it really. Yeah, it really calls to me, this one. I love it. [02:22:56] Speaker C: Yeah. I, when I first saw this one, I think it immediately looks good, but then I go, but it's not sharp. And if this was one of. Yeah, no, no. Then I'm like, if this was one of my photos, would I have the courage to include it in a set even though it looks good, but I'd be worried that people wouldn't get it or something? You know what I mean? And I've even, I've showed, I've showed photos on this podcast before that I thought. I showed a photo that I thought was very cool. It was of a guy railing a berm on a motorbike and spraying sand everywhere. And I've done tons of those where the. The sand is sharp and the subject is blurry and tons where the subject is sharp but the sand is blurry. And this one was something in between. And I really liked it. And I showed on this podcast and everyone said, oh, if the sand was sharp, that'd be a great photo. And I'm like, oh, man, I've literally taken that shot like a thousand times. This was finally something different. I thought it was something special. And everyone was like, oh, yeah, yeah. So. So. So when I saw this, I was like, I love it. I just, I don't know whether I would have the courage to put it in a set. And why is that? [02:24:07] Speaker B: I think it's like where it is in the set, by the time you've kind of gone through everything else that you. You've seen so far, you kind of get a vibe of the work and, and so it doesn't feel so jarring that it's completely out of focus. I think if this was the first image you you'd kind of go, oh, that's weird. That's kind of like a weird thing to lead with this kind of like out of focus kind of image. But I think because of where it is in the series, you've already kind of passed past all these images that kind of feel a little blurry, feel a little bit like this kind of like hazy memory. And so, like, by the time you get to this, you're kind of like in that world already. So you kind of almost accept it a little bit more, I hope, anyway. [02:24:54] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's. I think Matt. Matt's echoing like what Dennis has said before and that's the lack of sharpness feels intentional and gives it a dreamlike quality or a memory which feels suitable thematically. [02:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:25:07] Speaker C: So it's. So that it's all about the. The other images surrounding it, I guess. [02:25:12] Speaker B: Totally. Like, if I was to put that into a, like a competition, an award, like, it would just not do well at all because it'd just be like, you know, you've missed focus. The. The light may be too much on the face that, like, when you're looking at in a critical way as its own, it's different, but when you see it as part of a set, it has a different, different place. [02:25:35] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's such an interesting topic. What, what. What makes a project, what to include, what to leave out, what order to put them in. It's. It's really interesting to me. [02:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's really fun to work on other people's projects where they're. You know, I love sequencing and I love, like, looking at how to order things. Things and what talks to what, and how you can kind of make the overall project sing just by having images sit next to each other that are talking to each other. Like, I just. Yeah, I love it. [02:26:17] Speaker A: Yep. [02:26:20] Speaker C: Yeah. I really love this one shot through a car windscreen. [02:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like one of those, like, happy coincidences as well because I was driving through this place and I was just like, had the. The point and shoot like this and I was just like. I think I took two frames and this one, it just happened to be that. That tree just like right in the middle with this like, glowing light all around it and this like, natural vignette of the forest. Like. Yeah, it was just. Yeah. Really, really quite like, lucky, really. [02:26:56] Speaker C: Yeah, it's beautiful. [02:26:58] Speaker A: But I also love the way that the blue tint at the top of the windscreen echoes the dark line that runs across the bottom of the Frame. Yeah, like that natural vignetting. You said it. It kind of creates a really unique. It works like. It creates a unique balance between the top and the bottom of the frames. [02:27:17] Speaker C: For me. It also is like, okay, they were on a little road trip, like a little mini adventure. [02:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:27:23] Speaker C: You know what I mean? Because I know. Because I know they were in a car, but it wasn't shot with the whole. As obvious as where you could see the steering wheel or whatever. You know what I mean? So it's like. It just takes a little bit longer to be like, ah, so that's what. What was happening. They were in a car. Yeah. [02:27:39] Speaker B: And then you sort of wait with it and think about it, and then you're, you know, you're hooking the viewer in. Yeah. And then this, in a way mimics the one before because you've got this single solo figure in the middle that's kind of being surrounded by kind of. [02:27:55] Speaker C: You know, this natural vignette, similar kind of shape and. And things. But also, I think it helps make the set cohesive because it's also soft on the face like the. The pre. So it's like you're not having this mismatch of, like, perfect, sharp eye portrait, you know, and then. And. And then completely. And then it's sort of like it all ties together. [02:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:28:25] Speaker C: That one's just great. Maybe a little bit lighter feeling. And after the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:28:33] Speaker B: Like, bringing it up a little bit. [02:28:34] Speaker C: I was gonna say, is that it's like a. What did Chris talk about? Like, to give the viewer a little bit of relief after a few more. [02:28:43] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [02:28:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Like. What do you call them? Like, more heavy images. Like, with Chris's work, it might be really like sort of fairly dark subject matter or whatever, quite emotive. And then you have to relieve. You can't just keep hitting them with that image after image after image. You have to allow a moment to breathe. [02:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this. This is kind of brings us into, like. Yeah, it is a bit sharper. It is a bit more. But because it's black and white, it sort of. Of still feels with that nostalgic kind of feel. And. And, yeah, it kind of brings us. Kind of like raises us up a little bit rather than keeps us in the, like, in melancholy. [02:29:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [02:29:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:29:24] Speaker C: Very cool. [02:29:25] Speaker A: Wonderful. [02:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. [02:29:28] Speaker A: It's. [02:29:29] Speaker C: It's a great set. I really like breaking it down like this. I'm learning a lot. How did you. How did you get into this, that side of, like, of working on other people's images and helping curate and. [02:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:29:49] Speaker C: And put together, you know, collections of images. [02:29:53] Speaker B: I think it sort of started like, I guess running the awards, you're kind of looking at so much imagery and work and analyzing so much imagery and work. So you know, when you're judging the awards. So I think it kind of, I guess it started there and then when we started the Stories award, that was when it was really. We started really looking at kind of like worked like work that was kind of being matched together. And so that, that became like stories became like I love apa. And it's so amazing when all the worlds collide in one single image and it's just incredible. But when we did Stories, it was just, it felt so much more developed. And so that's when we started really. I think that's when I started really finding that love for long term projects. And through that there's so many more. When you're judging a single image, it's all within that one frame. But when you're judging 10 images together, it's really about like, oh, if only they hadn't put that image in or if they had put, put something else in here. And so that's when I started really thinking about like, oh, if that order was the other way around or if that happened that was there, that would have just sung and that. I guess that's when I started really kind of leaning into the idea of telling stories through multiple images. And then at the college we do that as well. So we look at. They have to do folio work and work to a project and yeah, they have to kind of do that. So then I, I'm, I'm doing it a lot there and now. It's just something that I just, Yeah, I just think is so great and I think it can really develop your photography beyond just. Yeah, just that one beautiful image to really kind of. Yeah, yeah. Say what you're trying to communicate in life. I guess. [02:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:31:39] Speaker C: I've said it before and I'll say it again. I did that workshop did open my eyes to shooting, you know, for a set of images rather than just one. And it definitely creatively makes you, it almost took the pressure off. It's like you don't, you don't have to tell this complete story in one photo, which often feels really daunting. Like, oh, how do I, how do I take a photo that tells all of this info just right now? Yeah, yeah. So you can, yeah, you can work through it, work through the story image by image and Then the curation process, I really enjoyed when you getting down to about three images over what you need to get it to. And then. And then it's shit. [02:32:24] Speaker B: And then when you have to let your favorite go because it doesn't make sense with the others, that's when it's like, that's right. [02:32:35] Speaker C: Getting it down, getting it down to that point you start to see. You're like, wow, my photography looks way better when there's less of it. [02:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:32:41] Speaker C: You're like, oh, wow. I'm actually not bad. If you take away, take away, take away, take away. You're like, oh, man, these, these images are great. And then. Yeah. And then they're like. When Harriet's like, okay, so you got 15, you just need to cut it down to 12. You're like, I don't want to. [02:32:56] Speaker B: I don't want it. [02:32:58] Speaker C: I mean, I like that one. I like them all. I'm not getting rid of any of them. [02:33:03] Speaker B: And you know what? In the real world, you don't have to. You can just keep it at 15. [02:33:07] Speaker C: That's right. But the process of it, I think, certainly makes you think more about, about your work. It helps you understand why each image is valuable in the set. And. And I think that's when it often does take a. An expert or an outside opinion of. I don't know what an expert is in the art world, but someone that maybe is a little bit detached and understands what you're trying to achieve, to look at it and go, you don't need that one. It's not anything. You've already told that over here. And you're like, okay, I guess, I guess, and guess I can get rid of it. I don't want to. [02:33:42] Speaker B: Is so important because you, you just want to keep it because you remember what you were feeling and you remember the moment that you made that portrait or whatever, and the connection you have with the person. But yeah, that outside opinion is so important. [02:33:55] Speaker C: You used your new 50 mil lens, and it's so sharp and you just want to leave it in because it's so cool. Before I forget, I just want to pull up Lucinda's comment from earlier saying, Sally Brown Bill was my portfolio lecturer. And the way she would compile folios was so incredibly interesting and helpful. [02:34:14] Speaker B: She's amazing. [02:34:16] Speaker A: Very cool. [02:34:18] Speaker C: Okay, anything else? Before we let you. We should probably let you get to work, considering you have a million different things that you do all the time. [02:34:24] Speaker B: I might just add that not all my photography is that kind of crazy. So if anyone wanted to look at that website. There are some sharp photos. [02:34:34] Speaker C: There are tons I can actually shoot. Yeah, I actually enjoyed. So just quickly, I was. I was clicking through some of your wedding stuff because I'm a wedding photographer. [02:34:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [02:34:45] Speaker C: Previously. And I. I kind of avoid it now, but there's some beautiful shots in there. Do you still do that at all? Or is that like. Is that part of your world now? [02:34:55] Speaker B: I wouldn't say it's part of my world, really. If someone asked me to shoot a wedding, I'll. I'll probably do it, you know, like, often it's a friend of a friend or it's someone that I've maybe worked for who's passed my name on. So it's not something that I'm like, doing all the time or I. I've never really been a wedding photographer, but I've done, you know, I've done a. A bunch in my life. And. And I'll definitely, you know, if someone's up for it, then, you know, I'll. I'll do one for sure. But yeah, it's not a go to. It's not like I'm out every weekend shooting weddings things. [02:35:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's not. Not something you used to do. You didn't sort of center your business around that or anything in the past? [02:35:33] Speaker B: No, no, I was a bit loose with my business. I didn't really censor it around anything. Like, I'll do it. Yeah, sure, I'll do it. I'll do it. And I've sort of realized now that, you know, as you go on, like, I don't want to do product stuff I don't want to do. Like, that's just not my wheelhouse. I'm not. I don't have the attention to make. Make everything lit beautifully. Like, I much prefer to just be a bit out there, a bit loose. Like make portraits. You know, I can do. I can do corporate portraits, but I. I pretty much prefer environmental portraits. You know, you. You figure out what you want to do. [02:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:36:08] Speaker B: And weddings, like, they're great. I like every weekend. That would drive me insane because it's just so much work and it's so exhausting. So, yeah, if it comes up, great. But it's not something that I would kind of push. Push. [02:36:21] Speaker C: Yep. Makes sense. [02:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. Absolutely fair. [02:36:26] Speaker C: Should we call it. Oh, we don't even need to. I know what you'll say. So we have a question that ties all of our guests together. It's very deep. It's very emotional. Question. [02:36:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:36:38] Speaker C: If it was the end of the world zombie apocalypse and you had to. Had to grab one camera and one lens to document the end of the world with. With what would it be? [02:36:46] Speaker B: The twin lens. [02:36:48] Speaker C: Oh, would it? Yeah, that's cheating because it's a twin lens, but I guess we can let you through because they're built in. [02:36:56] Speaker B: You don't put it on. Yeah. [02:36:57] Speaker C: You found a hack from our. [02:37:00] Speaker A: It's ingenious. [02:37:01] Speaker C: That is genius. [02:37:02] Speaker B: Yeah. It's my favorite camera. It's just divine. I love it. It's just. Yeah, it's beautiful. I love using it. It's. Yeah. Yeah. [02:37:11] Speaker C: What are the focal lengths of the two lenses, do you know? [02:37:13] Speaker B: I think it's a 40. No, I think it's a. Oh, God. I'm not a tech person. I think it's an 80. I think it's an 80. [02:37:22] Speaker C: Okay. [02:37:23] Speaker B: 80. [02:37:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:37:24] Speaker B: I don't know. Should I get it? Nah. [02:37:27] Speaker C: Well, I mean, don't. Don't stress. Don't stress. Very cool camera, though. That's awesome. What film would you put in it for the. For the zombie apocalypse? [02:37:35] Speaker B: Kodak Porsche. Hold on. [02:37:39] Speaker C: Hang on. We got to get this. The show and tell screen set up. Just a big chair. Kodak Portra. Oh, look at that bad boy. Oh, it's so cool. [02:37:53] Speaker B: It's my little baby. I know. What is it? It's. Yeah, 80. Oh, yes. [02:37:59] Speaker C: Nice. [02:38:00] Speaker B: I know something. Yeah, it's an 80 mil. Yeah, they're both 80 mils, so it's my. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And you just. [02:38:08] Speaker C: Oh, look at it. It's so mechanical. Yeah, I've never. I've never shot with one of those before. I'd love to have it. Yeah. [02:38:15] Speaker B: So that would be. That would be what I'd take for sure. [02:38:18] Speaker C: Dennis says it's beautiful. [02:38:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:38:20] Speaker C: Okay, so you take that and. And you'd load portrait in. You. You want to get the zombies in color? [02:38:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Black and white's great, but I think. Think. Yeah. Colors, like, especially that film. Filmic color is just like. [02:38:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:38:33] Speaker B: Wy. [02:38:36] Speaker A: Very magical. [02:38:37] Speaker C: Very awesome. Cool. Well, we'll call it at that. That was an epic show. Where should we. [02:38:44] Speaker B: I b. On. We've gone way over two hours. [02:38:46] Speaker A: I know. [02:38:50] Speaker C: On your podcast, do you guys keep to, like, a time frame for each interview or do you let it rot? Like, what's your head? [02:38:55] Speaker A: You do? [02:38:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we. We do. We. We keep to about. So the first season, we just did half an hour, which because we didn't want to kind of bore people but we realized that was way too short. The second season we did about 45 minutes, but most of them are about 50 minutes. But yeah, maybe we'll go on a bit longer. This was, this was great fun. I can't believe we've just been nattering for three hours. [02:39:20] Speaker C: It's, it's, it's tough because you know that like, people have limited time. It's going to be hard for them to listen to a long show and that sort of stuff. And we get that and we understand that our show doesn't suit a lot of people's lives. Some people do like to chunk it. They'll just, they'll listen to one show over the space of a week. 20 minute, you know, like sort of sittings when they're driving or whatever, which I think works well. But I just, I, we, it's, it's really tough to do those short ones and not. Yeah, we like tangents and, and going deeper. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, we enjoy it. Try it out. Just do a no time limit one. You'll, you'll, you'll be surprised. You'll end up going for three hours. You'll be like, whoa, what happened? [02:40:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Yeah, okay, maybe let's do it. Three hours. [02:40:09] Speaker C: Very cool. All right, so get on, get on to what? What? The When Harry Met Met Sally photography podcast. Yes, that's right. [02:40:17] Speaker B: Yeah. When Harry Met Sally. A photography podcast. Yeah, it's on the Spotify and Apple and I think you can get it everywhere else as well. Yeah, Harry with an I. If you do Harry with a Y, you get the movie. [02:40:31] Speaker C: Yeah, if you, if you put photography in with it. I think it's still come up because I was testing that before. I was like, how, yeah, will this come? And I think it did still come up. [02:40:39] Speaker B: So, so yeah, there's a little art deco kind of graphic that's kind of pink and beige and green. So that's, that's us. [02:40:48] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll put links in, we'll link. [02:40:51] Speaker C: It in the show notes. But yeah, go and check that out. There's tons of stuff from. Oh, we didn't even talk about the Ballarat International Photo Biennial. You did a heap of pop up episodes there. There's, yeah, multiple, there's tons of episodes. So you can go and dig in and. [02:41:06] Speaker A: Yeah, go check it out. [02:41:07] Speaker C: Find a heap of amazing photographers on there, including David de Parker, who is coming. [02:41:12] Speaker B: Indeed. Which was out this week. [02:41:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:41:16] Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me, guys. This has been so lovely. It's been so nice to chat further with you, like, other than just crossing, going. [02:41:26] Speaker A: Hi, gotta go. [02:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. [02:41:28] Speaker A: Felt like the whole weekend was, hi, I gotta go. But look, on that note, thank you so much, Harriet, for your time and your wisdom today. I think we've learned a lot from you and just exploring, you know, what it is to be sort of more purposeful, mindful, artistic, however you want to put it. But. But, yeah, thank you so much for your time and we, we look forward to seeing what you guys get up to in the future. Come back sometime. [02:41:56] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [02:41:56] Speaker A: Anytime. [02:41:59] Speaker B: Soon. [02:41:59] Speaker C: Yeah. If you launch some workshops and stuff, let us know. You can even pop in for 10 minutes at the start of one of our Monday shows and tell everyone about workshops or anything like that. [02:42:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:42:10] Speaker B: When APA gets up next year, maybe I'll come in and say we're open. [02:42:13] Speaker C: Actually, that would be. We might even do a longer segment on a Monday and talk about, like. Yeah, like, how to enter and all that kind of stuff. Like what? Yeah, what people need to know. That'd be great. [02:42:23] Speaker B: Amazing. Amazing. Wonderful. Thanks so much, guys. Thanks for everything you do for the photography industry and for doing this. It's just so great. And, yeah, thanks for having me on. [02:42:33] Speaker C: Thank you very much. We do. And I'm gonna roll the music and talk to everyone in the chat as we end this thing. So thanks, Harriet. [02:42:41] Speaker B: Okay, bye. [02:42:43] Speaker A: Thanks, everybody. [02:42:45] Speaker C: Matt, good to see you. He says, good to see Harriet. Greg and Justin LTK Said says, I enjoy listening live while editing my photos in the afternoon. It's perfect for that. It's a good editing companion. Rodney Nicholson says Harriet was fun. Thanks, Rodney. Lucinda, great. Listen while I'm working. Thanks, team. Dennis, great to see you as always. Philip Johnson. Thanks, gents. A special thanks to Harriet. You're the best. Philip, Robert Varner, Good to see you. That's why I gave up photography. My first photos are much better. Yeah, thanks, everyone. I don't know who else I've missed, but thanks for joining us. David de Parker. See you on the next one. [02:43:26] Speaker A: See you guys. Be safe.