Building a Wedding Photography Career That Lasts | Anne Scott-Virtue (EP174)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to the Camera Live podcast. It is Thursday, 16th April here in sunny Australia. We're all in Victoria today. Today we're going to be joined by. We are joined by weddings, elopement, family photographer and befop instructor, I might add, Ann Scott Virtue. And welcome to the show. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Thank you for having me, boys. It's nice to be here. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Oh, it's so good to catch up with you again. [00:00:54] Speaker C: Yeah, [00:00:58] Speaker A: we saw each other last, right? [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was befop. Yeah. Some of that is a bit hazy, I will admit. And I don't even drink, so, you know, I can't imagine what Justin remembers because, you know, clearly if that's the [00:01:11] Speaker A: case, then you've clearly done it. Right. Right. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:01:16] Speaker C: yeah. [00:01:17] Speaker B: I think beef up leaves you with that kind of what just happened kind of fog for a few days. So. Yeah. But I'm glad that we've recovered from that. Looking forward to beef up this year. We'll talk a little bit more about BFOP further down the track and. But I'm really curious to get your take on the wedding photography business. And, you know, you've been doing this for some time now and you not only photograph here in Australia, but you also do summers in Europe as well, which I think is amazing, and we're going to dig into that too. What is your advice on maybe new wedding photographers entering the market and how they can stand out and what you do to stand out in a crowded space? [00:02:01] Speaker A: Okay, we're hitting off with the hard questions. I think the most important thing for me personally and for my brand is authenticity, being authentic in what I put out there and how I present myself and like, putting myself in my client's shoes in terms of how I would like to be treated as a bride, I think that's a. That's a really, really big thing. And like to use an example for someone, I guess, who's starting out, you know, you need to build a portfolio so you might fall into the space where you do some style shoots, which is great. You know, you get some practice, you get a portfolio. But then to use that portfolio to advertise your services, I think needs to be communicated very clearly that this wasn't actually a high pressure situation of a wedding. This was a style shoot. This was a setup scenario. You had time to think about your compositions and your shoots and your, you know, how you approach things. So I think those kind of things, like this is what I mean when you playing into authenticity. And I think like, for, for Someone starting out, like, I know there's lots of posts going like, oh, I would like to second shoot, you know, but how many weddings have you shot? We haven't shot any weddings. So then maybe don't try and land paid second shoot gigs. Go and, you know, reach out to photographers that you align with or that you look up to or however you want to call it and see if you can just assist them and just, you know, tag along for the day and then pick their brains and learn that way. And then once you've built that confidence, go and second shoot and that kind of thing. But I think being authentic with yourself, with your brand, and especially with your clients and future clients is super important, I think, to stay relevant. I'm not necessarily someone to chase trends or certain styles. Like, I have my refined style that I like. And this is not to like, you know, downplay anybody else's style, but for me, it's, it's, it's timeless, it's elegance, it's. It's true to, to natural colors and not falling into, you know, editing trends and things like that. I think that's how I've established my brand. And yes, that evolves, but it kind of stays within those parameters. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yep. Okay. [00:04:31] Speaker A: That. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Great answer. [00:04:33] Speaker C: That's. Yeah, it's. I got given the same advice by [00:04:37] Speaker D: a lovely lady and photographer and friend, Lisa Nankervis. When I was sort of learning photography and wanting to get into the business, [00:04:46] Speaker C: she let me come and second shoot [00:04:48] Speaker D: and stuff like that. [00:04:49] Speaker C: And she said, yep, you can absolutely use. [00:04:51] Speaker D: She said, I'll check with the bride and groom that they're happy for you [00:04:53] Speaker C: to use these images in your portfolio. [00:04:55] Speaker D: And the only thing I want you to do is just say that this was shot while second shooting for Lisa Nankervis. She said, so as long as your potential clients know that you weren't in [00:05:05] Speaker C: control of this day, basically, you know, [00:05:08] Speaker D: like, you was sort of along for [00:05:09] Speaker C: the ride a little bit. She's like, absolutely, use them, but don't [00:05:13] Speaker D: pretend that you set that shot up or that you, you were running this whole wedding shoot. But yeah, I think that's amazing advice. [00:05:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I did exactly this on Tuesday, actually. I had a. I had an elopement on Tuesday and my best mate, who is a very well established cinematographer in the wedding field, we've worked together multiple times and he wants to, you know, transition further over into the photography side of things and he wanted to learn. And I said, you know what, I'll speak with Brighton groom if you want to come along. You can come along. He did, he shot. He shot his own stuff and he's using it on his new website and it states very clearly that it was second shot under white shadow trophy. So it's, it's exactly that. And, and if you it that way, I think no or the majority of, of us will be very happy to, to have someone come along because at the end of the day, like, if I can help educate James, for instance, I'm doing the industry a favor rather than knocking these people back. It was like, you know, go back 10, 15 years ago. Nobody wanted to share their knowledge. When, when I started out in photography 20 years ago, nobody wanted to share any secrets. It was all like, oh, you're grooming your competition and, you know, no one wanted to give you advice and you couldn't tag along. And I remember I was, you know, hassling this one photographer because I wanted him to be my mentor. And I think I hassled him for about three months until he finally caved and let me come and work in the studio, you know, but it's, it's like I'm only helping my own industry and this and my own market. If I help these people learn the ropes the right way, learn the skill correctly so that they can then charge correctly. So we're not having this game of like, oh, I'm undercutting because I can, because I have a 9 to 5, I still deliver a shit product and I'm going to hurt the rest of the industry. So that's kind of like the approach that I take with this. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's the way to go. And it's one of the mantras we often repeat here on the Camera Life podcast that, you know, through helping out each other, we all benefit, you know, by supporting community, by looking out for other photographers, by, you know, providing support, advice, guidance, education, or just, you know, a shoulder to lean on when things get tough. You know, we all benefit from that sort of stuff. So I think that's a great, that's a great approach. [00:07:40] Speaker A: When you think about, sorry, can I please go. I think that the other thing also is that this is like, like, the other thing is, like, when you think about it, right, this is, this is technically, it's quite a lonely job. Like, we, we have this one or two days a week where we're out in society doing what we're doing, but the rest of the time you. You sit in your office and you do your editing and you do your admin and it. But by. And you have Certain people that you always work with but by having new people come into the fold, you know, even though, and I think this is where people look down on newbies, don't look down on it because they come with a fresh set of ideas and a fresh set of eyes and they haven't been exposed to this game for such a long time. You know, I've been doing this for a very long time. And so to see someone fresh come in, they might have some brand new ideas that you've never thought about and you have your own little community that you constantly work with. So you know, falling out of that fold is, is, is not that easy. So having someone new come in is just brings a fresh set of eyes and maybe some fresh ideas. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. [00:08:48] Speaker C: I, I never thought about that that [00:08:50] Speaker D: way from when I was starting. When Jim was sort of getting started in weddings, he was already estab an established photojournalist. I was just brand new to photography [00:09:00] Speaker C: and all of the kind of established [00:09:04] Speaker D: professionals in our area were very much of the attitude of like hey, photography, professional photography is kind of dead. Everyone's got a camera now, it's really hard to make money. I wouldn't start if I were you. Was basically the prevailing attitude from established photographers that were working and we were [00:09:21] Speaker C: kind of like, I think we can make this work. [00:09:24] Speaker D: You know, like we've got some ideas, we could have a go. [00:09:26] Speaker C: And it's interesting you say that. I never thought about it if we had kind of been, if there were more people that cultivated a bit of [00:09:35] Speaker D: a relationship with us, the stuff that we implemented with like our social profile and all that sort of stuff that wasn't getting done as much by the established photographers at that point because this was probably 15 years ago or so. There was that big bigger shift in Facebook and advertising and that kind of stuff. We probably would have help them do all of that if they helped us learn more about the working with clients and the business and those skills that they had dialed in. It probably would have been a good value exchange. And I didn't even think about that at the time. [00:10:11] Speaker A: I think so I think it's great because not calling myself old here, but now, but yes, I am 20 year old, enters the industry and wants to learn, you know, like yes, we, we try and stay on top of educating ourselves with new technologies and new gear and all that kind of stuff but you know, they might just have come freshly out of university and, and have learned something that we haven't even thought of or where we're we're stuck in a certain process because it's our comfort zone. And we've been doing it this way for years because it feels good and it works. And you know, why change if it works? Why, you know, know if it ain't broken, don't fix it. But they might come in with a fresh idea, with a new workflow or something like that, like this. I feel like there's definitely value in having newbies coming in and letting them, you know, learn from you and you [00:11:03] Speaker C: learn from them for sure. [00:11:05] Speaker B: And look, you might not be the best mentor for that person, but you have a network, you know, you know other photographers, you can further support them. And who knows, they might come across a client that they don't feel they can handle and they might hand that off to you. Because you've built that relationship. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Exactly. It's building future relationships because that person, if that person is ambitious and has a drive and wants to end up in this industry like this is going to be your future colleague and, and, or competitor in that sense. So why not build that relationship? Why not help them? If they want to survive in this industry, they have to work hard. And if they do, then it's great. Then you have to build a new relationship. If they don't survive, then, well, you've done a good thing and off you go. [00:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So much to unpack here with you, Ann. But before we do that, we might just say good morning to our folks in the chat. I see that Dennis Smith is trying to fill up his comment quota already. He's not even going to hang around for it. So, Justin, you want to take that away? [00:12:01] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, let's have a look. Because we do, we go live for a reason. That's because we want people to be able to tell us where they're listening from. Ask and some questions. I don't know, make fun of Greg and I. So if you are listening out there, throw a comment in the live chat, ask a question, tell us where you are from. And if you're listening later, you do that. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Oh, I'm aware that we didn't quite get the outfit matched. We'll close. [00:12:24] Speaker D: We're almost wearing the same tones, but not quite. [00:12:28] Speaker C: That's okay. But these are Lucky Straps T shirts. You can buy [email protected] actually, I extended [00:12:34] Speaker D: our anniversary sale, Greg. [00:12:36] Speaker C: And did you know that lucky straps is 12 years old this month? 12 years? [00:12:40] Speaker A: Oh, wow. No way. [00:12:41] Speaker C: Isn't that crazy? [00:12:43] Speaker A: Are we still working on my special design? [00:12:45] Speaker C: I was worried this was Going to come up. So we had, we had Sophie on last week and she's hammering me about a dual strap and I'm like, well, I've got to hand on next week. [00:12:55] Speaker D: I'm going to have to see whether I've come up with the octo strap [00:12:58] Speaker C: or not for the eight cameras. [00:13:01] Speaker A: That could be like the perfect 12 year anniversary launch. [00:13:05] Speaker C: A 12 strap? A 12 camera strap? [00:13:07] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no. Just do the duel and then we'll do like the octo, like the jewel with the two attachments and as like the special edition. [00:13:15] Speaker B: But I'm pretty sure when we're at befop and discussing this, you said you needed a fifth connector because sometimes you carry five cameras. [00:13:22] Speaker A: Look, the fifth connector would be like we're going way over the top. But yes, that would be fun. But like generally if I, if I shoot, if I end up shooting both digital and film, then yes, I kind of need four cameras attached to me. I know that sounds crazy and people will look at me going like you're a lunatic. And I know that is crazy. But like I like the options and [00:13:45] Speaker B: whatever works for you. Whatever works for you. Fine. [00:13:48] Speaker A: It doesn't work for my back or my shoulders or you know, imagine that's [00:13:52] Speaker B: because you haven't got the right harness yet. [00:13:54] Speaker D: Yeah, not yet. [00:13:55] Speaker C: We will be, we'll be digging deep [00:13:59] Speaker D: into your gear and what you use and when you do end up using four or five cameras and why later on the show. [00:14:04] Speaker C: So stick around for that. But right now, if you do want a lucky strap right now, a leather camera strap, quick release, comfortable, really, really awesome. Go to Luckystraps.com because I will turn [00:14:15] Speaker D: the sale off probably at midnight. Tonight was supposed to go off at the start of the week and I just, I don't know, I felt bad. [00:14:21] Speaker C: The some comments. The drunk wedding photographer is here from Southern California. It says I'm 40 years old and a noob. [00:14:30] Speaker D: I don't know what I'm doing half the time. [00:14:31] Speaker C: The drunk wedding photographer actually shoots solely film weddings. [00:14:35] Speaker D: So like film film analog only. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:37] Speaker D: So interesting to get your thoughts on that later as well and whether you've ever done done that or if you're always hybrid. [00:14:44] Speaker C: Who else in the chat? Philip Johnson. As always, Bruce Moyle says morning all. Walking to a job with the show in my ears. David Leporati is here. David Mascara is here from the San Francisco Bay area, Rodney Nicholson. Good to see you. Dennis begins his comment barrage of super quick drop in before a job morning you bunch of legends. And then he said, hi, asv. [00:15:10] Speaker D: Hope the light is nice. [00:15:12] Speaker C: And then he said. Then he said, that's funny. I wrote ASV before you even come on, because I see you've got your [00:15:17] Speaker D: name there shortened it. [00:15:18] Speaker C: Is that something you do regularly, asv? Is that a thing? [00:15:21] Speaker A: Yeah, like, you know what? Funnily enough, like, growing up, I never had a nickname because Ann. Ann is Anne, and Ann doesn't get shortened or turned into anything. Yeah. So ASV is just my initials. It's just Anne's got virtue. But, yeah, I'm kind of known as ASV these days. Or Scotch. That's another nickname. [00:15:39] Speaker B: Scotch. [00:15:39] Speaker C: Okay, very cool. [00:15:41] Speaker A: I'm a Scotch connoisseur, and so that kind of earned me the nickname of Scotch. [00:15:48] Speaker C: Dennis Smith continues to say, any photographer that thinks they have a secret, tell them they're dreaming. [00:15:53] Speaker D: You're not that good. [00:15:57] Speaker C: Felicity Johnson, good morning. Matt Boyle is here. Good to see you. What happened to the plumber? Matt? One. You've got multiple accounts. This is getting crazy. Wookie75. Good morning. Hey, Shane. [00:16:10] Speaker D: Oh, he's back to the plumber mat. Okay, I should buy a camera. So you need a camera strap. [00:16:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, you can start with a camera [00:16:15] Speaker D: strap and work your way towards the camera. That's fine. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:18] Speaker B: Baby steps. Baby steps. [00:16:21] Speaker C: And what else have we got here? That's about it. Cool. We can. We can get back to the interview. All right. [00:16:27] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:16:29] Speaker B: And let's roll back the clock a little. I won't say how far, because you did ask not to be embarrassed during this show, so I won't. I'll do my best. Back in the day, you grew up in Germany and you've been in Australia for what, about 18 years now? [00:16:43] Speaker A: 20 years this year. [00:16:45] Speaker B: 20 years this year. Well, then you definitely need to update your web profile. So 20 years. You grew up in Germany. What was the inspiration for you to become a photographer? Was there people in your family? Was it a teacher, a mentor? How did you come across the craft? And what caught. What caught your attention with it? [00:17:08] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, that is a really tricky question because it's not all that creative, to be fair. It was the girlfriend and I, we wanted to take photos of each other, and neither of us really had a camera. And then I sort of started looking into it, and mum, actually, my mum gifted me a camera when I was, I think, nine. And so we dug that thing out and then brought some terrible Kodak film and chucked it in there and started taking photos. I still have, actually, those photos. Extremely embarrassing. They're Somewhere in the attic of my mom's house, I think. But, yeah, that was sort of like. That was the. That was the first go at it. And then I just really enjoyed playing around with that medium. And, like, you know, you're taking the photos taken on an old Canon, I think it was, or Pentax, I can't remember. And the. The joy of then, you know, taking the film to. I think back in the day, it was like, they're called. Like, they kind of had drugstores. It's kind of like a pharmacy where we used to go and drop our films off to get them developed. And then you get that little sleeve and you go every day and check if it's been done or not. And then eventually you get that sleeve and you rip it open and you have the little thing and you pull it out and you see that, you know, 90 of the film is crap. But there's a couple of photos in there. And I think that Seroton hit that you got from that kind of just really got me excited. And then, yeah, it's sort of like tumbled from there. And it was, you know, all of taking photos of flowers and your pets and some friends, and then you kind of realized all portraiture is kind of fun. And. But it was all very experimental, and, like, I wasn't. I wasn't hitting any major art inspiration goals or anything like that at that stage. And I remember I was working at a hotel right down in the. In on the border to Austria, and they had set up for a guest this beautiful candle. It's dinner at a boathouse. And the director of the hotel had asked me because the conversation of photography had come up a couple of times, and I was sort of like, shooting. I don't want to call it shooting, really, but it's like just taking photos for the joy of it. And so he asked me, hey, if I give you my camera and a couple of rolls of film, do you want to go shoot this for me? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I love this. I'm gonna nail it. And I fully leaned into the experience. And it's like, you know, sitting over there and taking photos of the candle setups and, you know, the couple and blah, blah, blah. And unfortunately, that camera hadn't been serviced in a while. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:19:51] Speaker A: So I think we had, like, maybe five salvageable images out of this entire experience. I think it was, like, two or three rolls of film. And look, I mean, they're historic. They had, you know, those five photos. And I was like, I just wanted to like, disappear in a hole in the ground. But that, that experience was like, oh, I really, I really like this. I. I want to see if I can do more with this because I really enjoyed the experience of like, you know, being on the sidelines and trying to capture this. This memory for these people. I was 16 at the time, or 17 maybe, and I thoroughly enjoyed that. And I think that sort of triggered the more serious approach to photography and wanted to learn a little bit more about it. And, yeah, sort of started shooting a little bit more portraiture and bought another camera. And it was all film back then, but, yeah, I think that's sort of how it all started. And then I came to Australia and I came as a backpacker with the intention of traveling around. And I, My. My dream was to live in Australia. I never wanted to leave. And I ended up living in Arnhem Land for several months. And that really kick started things for me because I lived out there. Oh. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Oh, no, we've lost you. [00:21:28] Speaker C: The joys of. Oh, we're back. [00:21:30] Speaker D: The joys of webcams with, with mirrorless cameras. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yes, that might happen every 30 minutes. I apologize. [00:21:38] Speaker C: It's okay. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Yes, I lived out, and I lived out in army. I got a really awesome job. I'm opportunity to go out there. And by that point I had a few cameras. There's a couple of film cameras. I had a Canon digital cam, and I had my first digital DSLR, which was a 10D at the time with like a 512 MB memory card. And I thought, holy shit. Sorry. I'm sorry. Like, how many photos possibly fit on this? And so I took that gear out with me. And because I lived out there for such a long time, like, I was, you know, included in a family group, and I was teaching at the school and working within the carver business and was a huge part of the community. And because these people trusted me so much and because I was out there for seven months, I had an area of opportunities to photograph, you know, women doing ceremonial business and men doing painting sessions and children playing and hunting and all those kind of things. And that then a couple of these images were entered in a human rights art award, and I won the first prize for that, which was phenomenal. [00:23:01] Speaker C: Yeah, that's awesome. [00:23:02] Speaker A: It was photos of children that I was teaching at the school, and I had a really close relationship with these guys. And I came back to Darwin and that was sort of like when I was 16 and shot that candlelight dinner. I was like, yes, this is, this is something I. I really enjoy. It's something I really would like to do to then going to Arnhem Land and literally living out my life dream of being in Australia and experiencing Australian culture, like, you know, the root of Australian culture, which I never thought that opportunity would come my way. That was just such a fluke and I was so grateful for it and completely, completely shaped me as to, you know, what I do now. [00:23:40] Speaker B: I was going to ask you that and what was, what do you think was the greatest learning from that experience in Arnhem Land, photography or otherwise? [00:23:48] Speaker A: I think it was just a really humbling experience for me. And because I was 20, I just turned 21 when I was out there and coming from like, you have to remember, I come from a very, very different world. I'm literally coming from the other side of the planet. And I like for as long as I can remember I had this childhood dream of living in Australia. My mum has. I remember in primary school in year one we had to do this art project. I tell people this all the time. We had to do a booklet using the first letter of our name. A, N Australia. Oh no, what is happening? Technology on my friend today. There we go. And obviously a being, you know, and Australia. So my whole booklet at the age of 6 or 7 was full of Australia. I think at the age of 11 or 12 I watched crocodile Dundee with my mum and I said, one day I will swim in that swimming hole. And Gungong Falls became my second home while I lived up in the and T then, yeah, I finished my education at home and decided, you know what, I'm going to book a one way ticket. Because I met someone at a house party who had just come back from Australia with their working holiday visa and I went over there and having had that opportunity go to Adam Land was never on my radar. Like, yes, I wanted to know more about indigenous culture, but I just didn't expect it to be something like this. And the job that I was given, you know, was, was incredible. Helping establishing a carver business, which was legal at the time, but then also working at the school and working with these kids and just seeing that whole environment. And the remote community I was living in was called Ramaginning. And I was out there during the wet season, so driving in is not really an option. The only way in or out is flying and being so isolated. And I've learned a lot of new skills and I've learned a lot of things about myself as to what I can endure, what I'm okay with. And there was some very Humbling experiences as you know, coming from your cushy life in Europe to that. And I just, I'm so grateful for that opportunity and obviously being able to, you know, have these people accept me in the way that they did allowed me to take the photographs that I did and to then win awards with these photographs was just the pinnacle for me. And that's what then in the end kick started because then I went back to Darwin and I wanted to obviously make it work to stay in Australia so I said to my mum I want to go back to university and, and study and I wanted to either study photography or I wanted to study graphic design and I needed the financial support of my, my parents to, to help me do this because being an international student in Australia is not cheap. And my mom actually turned around and said to me nah, photography, you'll never have a career in that. Like that is not something that's going to put food on the table. You're, you know that that's not going to ear. So I studied something completely different. But yeah, in the end photography now is what I do full time and it still baffles her, she still doesn't understand it. [00:27:13] Speaker B: What did you study? What did you study to appease the, the mother? [00:27:17] Speaker A: I, I did a diploma in event management which to be fair so I've got studies in, in business management and event management and, and yeah. Is this happening? [00:27:29] Speaker C: Sorry for those of you, for those of you just listening on audio every now and then Anne's camera is just [00:27:35] Speaker D: throwing up like a viewfinder inactive. [00:27:40] Speaker B: I just want to make note that it is a Canon camera [00:27:45] Speaker C: and mine's crystal clear. Look at it, it's beautiful. [00:27:47] Speaker A: Well you do this weekly? I, I never have this experience experience so. [00:27:53] Speaker C: That's right. We've had 170 episodes to muck up refine. [00:28:00] Speaker A: But yeah, so I, I guess yeah like the, the candlelight dinner and the experience that I had in, in Arland I think are probably big defining moments in taking photography up as a, as a full time career. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:18] Speaker C: Was there so that. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Go on Justin. [00:28:20] Speaker C: Anything in. I just want to find out a [00:28:21] Speaker D: little bit more about Arnhem Land before [00:28:23] Speaker C: we go into the, the transition into photography itself. Was there anything that really sort of flipped you upside down like your expectations of, of what it was going to be like? You must have had high expectations or [00:28:39] Speaker D: I don't know an idea of what this experience was going to be like [00:28:42] Speaker C: and then was there anything you can [00:28:43] Speaker D: remember just being vastly different from what you expected when you actually Got there [00:28:47] Speaker C: and started living there. [00:28:49] Speaker A: Oh yeah, oh yeah. The very first morning was a complete eye opener. So I had traveled in Australia for six months prior to going out to Anand and I, I'd arrived in Adelaide, traveled across Malbor, spent some time in wa, traveled all up the west coast and then landed in Darwin. And this opportunity came now in those first six months of traveling Australia. Like, obviously I, I tried to educate myself about indigenous people before I even came to Australia. So I had what I thought a relatively well balanced view on it. And then I remember very vividly being in Broome and just seeing indigenous people, you know, sitting on the trees, getting drunk and, you know, having, having difficulties integrating themselves into society in bigger cities and things like that. So that was what I was experiencing and you know, seeing some of the violence and the not so nice things and then coming out to animal land. I arrived quite late in the community that the first day and I was given a donger home which was sort of on the edge of the community. And I remember I didn't have ceiling fans, the aircon wasn't working, so it was boiling hot and humid. And I remember the first morning I had this, this deck on the side of my container home and I made myself a coffee and my terrible instant coffee and I took my cup of coffee outside and I sat on the front porch and I swear to God, here we go again. And I swear to God, within five minutes of sitting there drinking my cup, a bunch of men walked past, but fully painted up with their little loin coverings and two of them were holding on to traditional spears. And I was sitting there, my cup of coffee just like looking at this whole thing walking past me and I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm just, I don't know, like, pinch yourself. Like this is. [00:31:06] Speaker C: Yeah, like, like a movie, like you're in a movie or something. Like just. [00:31:09] Speaker A: It was such a surreal moment. And don't get me wrong, like, just like there is also there were difficult things within the community of, you know, living situations of people and all that kind of thing. But it was a dry community. And because the community had kava at the time, so things like petrol sniffing or, you know, alcohol being brought in from the black market wasn't a thing within the community. And Ramen guinea was, is quite isolated, but it also is the home community of David Kupoli, who has passed away, the director. And it's a very art driven community. And Bula Bula Arts, the art center within the community. Like there was lots of Artists living in the community. So it was. Yes, there is some modern society problems within that community and I don't, I haven't been back for a very long time. But at the time it was a, it was a very welcoming experience to me and, and getting like such a beautiful insight into some of still the traditions and ceremonies and things that they were doing which completely spun and flipped my, my, my view from what I'd experienced in the first six months of being in Australia on its head. Yeah, and it was, yeah, it was, yeah, it was absolutely fantastic. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Is, is this an image? Is that, does that, is that like, does this accurately kind of paint the [00:32:40] Speaker D: picture of, of that area, that township? [00:32:43] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:32:45] Speaker D: Sort of, yeah. [00:32:46] Speaker A: So you see the big. Yeah, you see the big footy over. Well, that's during the dry season. In the wet season it's from lush. There's some new developments in this photo on the bottom right hand corner that I don't recognize. But my, my donger was. So in the bottom right hand corner where you see the, the slightly bigger developments. And then there's the. Yeah, so my, my house was not there. So over. Yeah, in that area. That's where my house was. That's where sort of the lived B people, teachers. Yeah, it was very cool. [00:33:20] Speaker D: That's cool. [00:33:21] Speaker A: And then that's the school. No, hang on. That's the school. Sorry, we've got to flip this. That's the school grounds, I'm pretty sure. And then over there I can't really [00:33:36] Speaker C: recognize through the magic of the Internet, [00:33:39] Speaker A: but yeah, and then there's like this, there's like a tiny police station and they have an airfield which is the only way in or out. And then there's two roads that you can take. [00:33:49] Speaker C: I was just gonna. Yeah, I'll zoom out a bit. So there's. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Yes, right there. Yeah, it's like if you zoom all the way out, you can actually see where. How remotely this is. [00:33:59] Speaker B: So. [00:34:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's almost the, the tippy top of Australia. But if you like you zoom back in and there's, there's not much in [00:34:13] Speaker D: this, this whole area. [00:34:15] Speaker A: Beautiful. There's a really stunning. So there's two ways you can drive into the community which is either the, the top road which goes from Darwin through Kakadu. Sort of like the. Yeah, there's like a top road but it's got like seven or eight river crossings and the very last river crossing before Ramaginning is the Blythe river. And if the Blythe is pumping like you, you just don't want to do it because you're swimming with crocodiles. And then there's another road which is the bottom road, which goes through. You go through Catherine, and then you enter Arnhem Land from the bottom. And that drive is phenomenal. I remember I did this drive. The best, the best experience I've ever had. You've never, you've never tasted a roast chuck like this. He had one of the really old school land cruises. He was another teacher at the school. And we did a trip back to Darwin for a few days. And then on the way back, because the, the drive on the bottom road takes about 13 hours. And he has one, he had one of those really old school Land Cruisers, like quite a large one. And I remember it was fire engine red and dinner time was approaching. And he had done this before. I'd never done this in my life, but he had done this before. And he's like, we'll cook a rice chuck on, on the drive. And I'm like, how are we gonna cook a roast chook on the drive? Anyway, we stopped, we wrapped the chook in aluminum foil and we put it on the engine block and we drove and we had a proper, like, roast. Not roasted, but a proper cooked chicken. After like an hour and a half driving. And we had the most amazing dinner, like cooked on van cruiser whilst doing river crossings, watching swim pastas. It was amazing. It was an incredible experience. [00:36:04] Speaker B: What an experience. [00:36:05] Speaker D: Sounds like it's out of a movie. [00:36:06] Speaker C: That's crazy. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:09] Speaker C: Yeah, that is crazy. Okay, so should we, should we, should we. Oh, look, Nick Fletcher's here. He says, oh, it's Anne. We love you. [00:36:20] Speaker A: Hi, Nick. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Hi, Nick. Should we, should we get to the. So, so you studied something else and then, then what happened? Like, how did you get from studying something else to being an amazing professional wedding photographer? What happened in between those bits? [00:36:38] Speaker A: That's a really good question. Well, I, I never intended on being a wedding photographer. And if you had told me, what are we in now, 12 years ago, 13 years ago, that I was going to be a wedding photographer, I would have told you, I'll never touch that with a ten foot pole. Just, just wasn't. But I mean, look, weddings at the time, like, weddings have changed an awful lot. So if we go back 20 years, raming that whole thing sort of ignited that, like that drive. Okay, I want to do this now. I want to do this properly. And I came back to Darwin, the arts awards happened, and I Won them based on portraiture and I really liked that. And then I also, I saw a film called the Bang Bang Club. [00:37:27] Speaker C: How good is that movie? But also a little bit. Still haven't watched it so awesome. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Oh haven't you? [00:37:32] Speaker B: No. [00:37:33] Speaker A: You need to watch it Greg. It's, it's, for me it was, it's quite a defining, defining thing. And then the other thing that was a bit defining for me was Balabo but I'll get to Bellabo in a second. So the, the Bang Bang Club movie I watched, I can't remember but it inspired me and I, I, I admire war documentary and especially post war documentary because I feel like, and especially in this day and age like our news cycle is, you know, we have a 24 hour news cycle and things don't stay in the press for very long unless they're really attention grabbing and everything moves out. The war is done but the consequences that stay behind never get documented. And I think that was, I was really drawn to something like that and so I, I developed an interest in journalistic work. Stephen Dupont was someone I was majorly inspired by. The, the movie the Bang Bang Club was very inspiring to me and so I wanted to see if I can you know, fall a little bit more into a journalistic field. And this is where I then harassed this photographer in Darwin because I found out that this photographer in Darwin he did a fair bit of journalistic work. He did some work for the NT news and, and had some experience in, in the fashion world as well which I thought I might have an interest in. But um, in the end I, he also ran a huge commercial studio which is also something like. So but my, my interests at that point were like really, really broad and I hadn't fined as to what I wanted to do. Like I knew I had a massive interest in journalism but I also knew that journalism at the time, especially for females, it's really hard to get into and it's not and it still isn't really a great moneymaker if that makes. Yeah, I guess so. And anyway so I ended up harassing Shane for probably a good three months with my, and I still have this original portfolio folder. I, I created like this, this gigantic map and printed my portfolio that I had at the time and dropped it at his place and I made him catch up for coffees with me and you know, I basically begged and pleaded for him to just let me just carry your bags. I don't care, I don't need to shoot. I just want to learn. Carry your bags I want to, you know, I'll clean your studio, I don't care, just, just let me help you. I want to learn. And in the end he caved and [00:40:18] Speaker B: he sounds like he had no choice to me, but okay, [00:40:23] Speaker A: if Anne puts her mind to something, it's, yeah, it's gotta happen. Anyway, he creator Flight Studios, became my first professional photography employer, I guess and Shane took me on and I think for the first, I want to say for the first six to eight months I didn't take a single photo. Like I literally carried bags. I learned I had to pay attention, I had to chat and you know, I was assisting at workshops and things like that. But it was brilliant. It was really, really good and I loved it. I thoroughly loved it and I thought, okay, this is what I want to do. This is where I see myself. And through Shane I was given many amazing opportunities. Eventually he did let me choose. You know, eventually he got me on board with the NT news. So I then started shooting the social pages for the NT News and then I started shooting some other events for the NT news. I got an insight cover of the NT news. It was a CROC story. Of course, NT news is iconic for that. And then I managed to do some assignments for Fairfax Media and you know, it sort of like I felt like I was falling into that journalistic work that I wanted to do and that was fun and it was great but it wasn't, it wasn't 100% fulfilling if that makes sense. And I still, and I'm still hung up on post war documentation. I think now that I'm a mum and I have a stable family life, it's probably not something I'm going to pursue but I still, I still draw a lot of inspiration from it. I, I think it's, it's fascinating to see and you know, the things that some people are willing to put themselves into situations to, to, to bring this to the public eye is, is fascinating to me. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it's pretty raw, isn't it? [00:42:18] Speaker A: It's extremely raw. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Very raw, yeah. [00:42:21] Speaker A: And like drawing it back to wedding photography, what I, what I always say is like, I think anyone who knows their way around camera or even not, you know, put it on auto can take a great photograph. Right. Give me a beautiful couple, sunset, Cliff, whatever. You, you can make something pretty with that, correct? [00:42:41] Speaker B: Yep. [00:42:42] Speaker A: But for me, and a truly outstanding photograph and, and I think this is where the raw emotion comes in is if you can look at a photograph and it's not necessarily you as a subject in the image. But you can look at a photograph and it makes you feel something. That to me is an incredible photograph. If it can draw you into the emotion that you see in the photograph or if you can draw out an emotion within yourself, I think that to me is an incredible photograph. That photograph might not be, you know, the perfect composition, that might not be 100% sharp, it might not have the correct exposures or whatever. But if that can make you feel something, I think that's what photography is meant to be doing. You know, it's capturing a moment, it's capturing a feeling and it's capturing an emotion. And the really raw post war documentation I think can do that so brilliantly because it will draw you into a situation that you and I have never experienced because we're extremely lucky in that sense. But I feel like it can give us just that little bit of insight into what it must be like and I think that's really important. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Well, you've given me goosebumps. I think we should clip that bit. Yeah, that's just the whole episode. Thanks for your time, man. It's been great. That's an incredibly powerful observation and statement and I think, I think you're spot on with it. I think that there's, you know, and I think that's often what differentiates in, in crowded markets of photographers that sometimes what differentiates the good from the bad, you know, is that you actually, your client, your viewer, whoever it is that you intend to see that photo or not intend, will actually walk away with something that's impressed upon them emotionally. I think that's really powerful. So where did the wedding for? So you've been assisting. When did you shoot your first wedding? When did you actually pick up a camera and actually second or at an event? [00:44:44] Speaker A: I actually. So I shot my very first wedding in Darwin and I was. Whilst I was working for Shane, I also worked at the Middle Beach Sunset Markets and the manager at the time, she got engaged and wanted to get married obviously and she knew that I was doing a bit of photography as well and so she asked me if I would shoot her wedding. Yeah, so that was my very first wedding and I shot at Ms. Shane because I was nervous as hell and so I was the lead photographer and Shane came and was basically the lead and I was, you know, trying to find my fate in it. And look, it's not something I would share on my folio these days, but I looked back at it a little while ago and I was like, you know what, there's some cringe in there? Absolutely. But there's actually also some really cool stuff in there. And it was a very tricky ceremony spot. We had to use flash, and it was the era of, like, super wide angles and, you know, selective color on a black and white. [00:45:56] Speaker C: Selective color. [00:45:58] Speaker B: Blasphemy. [00:45:59] Speaker C: No, [00:46:02] Speaker A: I did. I did. [00:46:05] Speaker C: We all did. We all were like. [00:46:06] Speaker A: We all did. Let's be honest. There's no point in trying it. Right? Like, I think we all tried it at one point. [00:46:12] Speaker C: And I suppose if you haven't tried it, Are you really pushing yourself as a photographer? If you haven't tried selective color, you really need to push yourself. Wow, that's awesome. [00:46:26] Speaker A: But, yeah, and then, look, I, I liked it because she was a friend, and it was fun, but I didn't love it and I didn't really see myself in that field. And then I. Not long after that, I moved from Darwin to Melbourne. And in Melbourne, I then thought, you know what? I'm gonna try and chase the commercial market. I want to be a commercial photographer. That's what took my fancy at the time. And I, I ended up shooting a whole bunch of things. Like, I ended up shooting from, you know, Grant Hackett's apartments to shooting a high rise of being built for an architect, to some AFL footy games, to whatever I could get my hands. I shot the, the tennis. And it was all fun, but again, it wasn't fulfilling. It was great, but it's. I kind of like, I love the fact that I have dabbled and I built a really good commercial photography business from it. And I had, you know, some solid clients and some solid work, and it was all great. And then people within my friendship circle sort of started to get engaged and started to get married and like, hey, do you want to come photograph? And I'm like, absolutely, absolutely not. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Friendship's over. [00:47:54] Speaker A: I'm like, no, no, no, Absolutely not. I'm not interested. And then I went to Thailand for a friend's wedding, and they had booked like a, a package with the resort that they were at, and the, the photographer was included in that. And then just before the wedding day, I got sent some examples of this particular photographer. And the bride, my friend, freaked out. This is not like in, like, what you have in your mind right now when you went, like, going back, like, almost 15 years ago, that's exactly what it was like, the photography type that, you know, was going to be produced. And so she was, she was nervous, she was upset, she was worried. And so she asked me, could you please just. Just for the, for the beach photos. Just for the sunset photos. Could you please, please? And I'm like, y. Of course I will. So I brought my camera and took some shots, and I actually really enjoyed. Was really fun. I had some creative freedom, which I really enjoyed as well, and was able to play around with some things because I was an elite photographer, so I could just, you know, have a bit of a play. And by that point, portraiture had sort of fallen a bit to the wayside, which is what originally started everything for me. And, yeah, came back to Melbourne and then I thought, well, you know what? Like, say I had a. I had a really awesome commercial photography business that was, you know, paying the bills and allowing me to, you know, live an awesome life. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to burn the candles at both ends. I'll give it a year. I'll see if I get some bookings. I'll see if I fulfill these bookings and still find joy in it and like it. And if I'm any good at it, if I. If I. You know, like the environment of a wedding and the clientele and the people that you work with and all that kind of stuff. And I did, and I managed to. I was a bit. I was a bit full of myself. So I was like, you know what? I have a fully established business. I've shot two weddings in my lifetime. I'm a fully established photographer. And this is where at the start, like, the advice that I gave is not how I did it, but this is the advice. Don't do like, I did it. But anyway, I was, you know what? Like, I have this business. I don't need to undercut people. And if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna burn the candle at both ends, like, I'm gonna charge a decent amount for this because I'm full of myself. And I did. And people were crazy enough to book me. And so I shot, I think, five weddings in that year. And I walked away from it going, you know what? This is extremely fulfilling. This absolutely fills my cup. I. Weddings had changed from, like, a stylized approach an awful lot. I mean, they've changed over the last 15 years, even more. But the creative freedom that came with it was amazing. I enjoyed that. But what I enjoyed most is the realization of being allowed into that little family orbit for that one day. And this is. I think I always say you have to be a bit of an archer anthropologist to do this job. And I love human connection and human interactions and how couples are with each other and communicate with each other and seeing family units. And, you know, my family is on the other side of the world, so seeing those Thai family units kind of like, I don't know, for me, it was really fulfilling to see that and capturing those moments. And that's grown even more into my favorite thing now that I'm a mum myself. Just those little nuanced moments between people on this day where everyone is happy and everyone is emotionally charged and, you know, it's. It's such a beautiful environment to be in. And yeah, those, those five weddings that I shot in that first year cemented for me that this is what I'm going to do. And I stopped taking commercial work and said that I was going to fully build the wedding business and I did. And here we are. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really. It's really interesting and you know about how you've dabbled in lots of other different genres before you found your happy place, the place that fulfilled you, the place that made you realize that you can do this, you can make something of this. This is going to be who I am moving forward. And it's an interesting, I guess, experience for you because you've kind of worked out what you don't want to do by trying it. Yeah, you know, lots of photographers, I think, will launch into a genre and maybe sometimes always guess whether there was something else I should have tried first, you know, but you've gone through that. And I think I often tell people, if they're in a rut or they're stuck with their craft photography, to stop trying to shoot what they've always shot and try a new genre. Anything doesn't matter. Because my belief is that every photo we take today makes the photos we take tomorrow better. Because it's all an experience. It's all learning, it's all, you know, cementing that muscle memory, cementing how you see the world, all of those sorts of skills combined. I'm really interested to hear a little bit more about your. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Your year. [00:53:31] Speaker B: So you, you shoot weddings here in Australia in Australian wedding season, and then in our winter, you head off to Europe to shoot gigs. How did that come about where you were spending so much time on the other side of the planet, as you put it? [00:53:46] Speaker A: Well, I mean, my entire family's over there, so for me, it was. It wasn't. It's only sort of. The Europe thing is sort of started just before COVID and I landed some. I landed a gig in. In Iceland, which I couldn't fulfill, unfortunately, because I was pregnant and couldn't go. But it's kind of like. And especially now having my daughter river, like her entire family, my side of the family is over there, so all her uncle's coming, cousin's grandparents that she's really close with, they're all over there. And so for me, it was kind of like a natural progression of, like, you know what, I've done it before river came along, but now I even have more reason to do it. And, you know, I'm very lucky in the sense that I am a dual citizen, so I have a European Union passport, so I'm allowed to work anywhere within the Schengen area. And I'm very lucky in the sense that I can position myself for extended period of times in Germany. And river gets to spend time with her family and I get to also take her to some really cool places. You know, usually I drag my mum along as a babysitter. River was younger, you know, I had. I had five days of work in Rome and River was five years old. And so I dragged my mum along. And if you've ever worked in Rome, you know that everything happens around sunrise. So you shoot for, you know, certain amounts of hours in the morning and then you have the rest of the day to explore Rome. And, you know, to give river these experiences is really awesome. You know, if I shoot in France, I have a very good friend who lives near Provence down in the south of France, and she's got kids too. And so, you know, we, we. I go work in France and River gets to hang out with them. And it's just a really beautiful way for me to, you know, let river be in that part of her heritage and let her experience that. But for me also to make it financially feasible, I do have, like. I don't chase and chase a huge season in Europe because I think there's. It's a bit of a funny one. Like, I do think if you, if you turn the tables right, if, if all of the European photographers would try and come into our market during our Australian season, especially with the last year where, you know, booking work wasn't easy for everyone, if we had all these European photographers come and flood our market, we wouldn't be happy about it either because we're taking work away from the local market, especially if the local market is strained already. So I try to be really conscious of the fact that there is brilliant photographers over in Europe. If for some reason a couple falls in love with my work that happens to get married in Europe, and then it aligns with the dates that I'm there or I will structure my dates to be there, then that's great. But I also want that experience to be an experience that I have with River. So I will never, you know, position myself over there for six months to do a full on season and be a fully established European photographer. [00:57:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:12] Speaker A: For moral reasons. But also I have a life here and you know, I live on a farm. We have a ton of animals and. Yeah. So it's kind of like trying to find a balance. I love being able to do this and it's, it's a very humbling experience to, to have people, you know, fall in love with your work that. Oh, every 30 minutes. [00:57:36] Speaker C: Yeah, we're at an hour. [00:57:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's, it's, it's very, it's very humbling and it's never lost on me that, you know, I'm, I'm extremely lucky to have build a brand and a brand awareness where people are willing to, to, to fly me over and, and have me photograph the day in Europe. Even they do have access to some other really brilliant photographers in Europe that I personally think are far better than me. But yeah, I, I'm very grateful for the opportunities and I really like it. It's good fun. [00:58:07] Speaker B: I think it's amazing especially that you've incorporated such a, a healthy work life balance. You know, you've, you've got a daughter, you've got river and you're able to integrate with your work and with your family and, and, and allowing her time to not only connect with her extended family, but that travel experience is priceless when it comes to education. You know, building global awareness in a child is no easy feat and, and you know, through just naturally experiencing it by your side, I think is, is a wonderful gift that, that you've given her. I'm curious to know when it comes to picking up weddings in Europe and I know like you said, it's not a full season. Do people come to you or do you actively market? Like do they come to you because of word of mouth or do you actively market in Europe? [00:58:57] Speaker A: I don't actively market in Europe, no. So I'm on a couple of preferred suppliers lists at a couple of different chateaus. I've worked with a couple of different planners that have obviously enjoyed the experience of working with me and we've, you know, become friends or you know, business or acquaintances, I guess. And so they do recommend. So most of it is on recommendation. I am on no paid advertising, directory or anything like that. It is generally just through word of mouth, through Instagram and a couple of preferred suppliers lists and a couple of planners I guess that I've worked with in the past. And funnily enough, most of my European clients aren't actually European. They're mostly American or Australian. So the actual first. No. So this is the second European couple that I'm actually going to photograph in Europe is now coming up in June, but the couple lives currently in New York and has relocated their home to Sweden. And I'm photographing their wedding in Sweden. [01:00:11] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:00:12] Speaker A: But yeah, so it's, it's mostly Americans or Australians that I photograph. [01:00:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:00:21] Speaker D: And. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Oh, you go, Justin. I've asked lots of questions. Sorry. [01:00:25] Speaker C: I've got a ton of business questions [01:00:28] Speaker D: that I want to talk about and [01:00:29] Speaker C: I also have gear questions too. [01:00:30] Speaker D: So we'll save that for the, the very sort of end the final. [01:00:34] Speaker C: So we'll do, we'll do a half hour segment now and then next time your viewfinder, next time your thing goes [01:00:39] Speaker D: black, we'll switch to gear. [01:00:42] Speaker C: But actually before, before I ask these questions, don't forget, if you're listening live either now or if you want to join us on a future episode, make sure you jump in the live chat and put comments in. Like this comment from Glenn Lavender who says shooting friends weddings always leads to baby photography. [01:01:02] Speaker B: Now you're put more gusto into that. Do the Irish. [01:01:06] Speaker C: I can't. [01:01:06] Speaker D: Glenn Lavender. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah, true. [01:01:08] Speaker D: Know he would probably write a song about it with AI. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:16] Speaker C: So make sure. Join us in the live chat. We go live twice a week. This is our Thursday show where we do interviews with amazing people like Ann. But we also go live on Monday nights with special guests or just me and Greg or whatever. And we check out your photography, which you can send in by emailing it to me justinuckystraps.com and we check out the news and do all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, join us if you're listening on Spotify or Apple podcasts, we'd love to see you over on YouTube one day. Come and hang out and don't forget, [01:01:44] Speaker B: give us a like. Oh yeah, that helps a lot. Yeah, yeah. [01:01:47] Speaker C: And subscribe one of them too. Yep. And. And Luckystraps.com sale still on. You know what to do. [01:01:55] Speaker D: Okay. [01:01:56] Speaker B: Yep. [01:01:57] Speaker C: Back to the. [01:01:58] Speaker D: To my questions. [01:01:59] Speaker C: Okay, first question. The five weddings that you shot in [01:02:04] Speaker D: your first kind of like test season, [01:02:07] Speaker C: do you remember roughly what price they were? You said, you said you basically you just went straight in at like, I'm a pro price level. Do you remember roughly what that was at that time? [01:02:20] Speaker A: I do remember they were in a three thousand dollar bracket and it baffled me because I had literally no portfolio to show and no experience. But yeah, it was, I remember it was over three grand. [01:02:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:33] Speaker D: Okay. [01:02:34] Speaker C: Do you. [01:02:36] Speaker A: And that could have, you know, at the time could have been 10 to 12 hours. So at that point I had no idea how to, you know, package and. [01:02:46] Speaker C: Well, yeah, actually that's a good question. Did you have just kind of one package? [01:02:49] Speaker D: It was basically like one price. Hey, this is me for the day. It includes everything. [01:02:55] Speaker A: This is the cost. I'll be there all day. Yeah, yeah, I had no idea on. And this is, this is where it comes back to what I said at the very start is going to learn from people that are established in the market. Because when I did it, I didn't know about how much time I should have for prep for him, how much time I should prep her for her. And you know, like being at the ceremony half an hour before the ceremony starts and like how long is an average ceremony? Like should like doing family photos directly after or you know, congratulations. And like how much should I plan for a portrait session? Like, what are good locations? Like how much time should. I had no idea. I had no idea. I pretended I knew and somehow I fluked my way through it. I had five very happy clients, I'd like to say from the feedback that I got, but on the inside I was dying. [01:03:48] Speaker C: Well, and this is the thing though, because if you're new to wedding photography, you obviously knew how to use your [01:03:56] Speaker D: cameras at this point very well. I would imagine you were, you were quite confident. You're not getting stuck. [01:04:02] Speaker C: If you're, if you're trying to learn both at the same time, you're in [01:04:05] Speaker D: a very tricky situation. [01:04:07] Speaker C: You do not want to be doing [01:04:08] Speaker D: like your first wedding and also not sure what settings to use or what lens to use or whatever because it will be a nightmare. [01:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I was, I was a professional shooter by that point for I think eight or nine years. So my sole income at that point was photography for eight or nine years. So I, I can operate my cameras blind, not when I'm using webcam, but like I can, I can. I, at that point I knew how to photograph. I knew how certain light situations, you know what I would need to do. I had a full bag of equipment. I just think, I think for me that the challenge was how does a full wedding day. Because if you're a guest at a wedding, you don't get the full inside, like, you don't, you know, you don't see the same, like the photographer is literally there from A to Z. If you, if you book a photographer for a full day. I had no idea of any of those things. I was confident in my skills with the camera, but that was it. [01:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:09] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. [01:05:10] Speaker C: And, and so, and you know, likely you could, you could go the other way. If you were like a professional wedding planner with a ton of experience or [01:05:17] Speaker D: like a venue manager or something like that, and you've done this inside and [01:05:20] Speaker C: out for six years, you could probably learn a bit about your cameras during [01:05:24] Speaker D: the wedding day because you, you can [01:05:25] Speaker C: probably do the wedding management side of [01:05:27] Speaker D: it, stand on your head knowing how to, how the day is going to operate, where you've got to be, where they've got to be, keeping everyone happy. [01:05:34] Speaker C: Um, yeah, if you, if you've got those skills, you could probably be learning, [01:05:37] Speaker D: learning a little bit about photography as you go. But yeah, you certainly don't want to be trying to, trying to learn everything at once. [01:05:43] Speaker C: It would be stressful. [01:05:45] Speaker A: And I think you need to, you need to have a baseline understanding of your camera operation, but also being able to see, understand and work with light like you can, you can learn the technical side of things, I think, relatively quickly and easily. Like, it's not rocket science, like we're not curing cancer by operating a camera, but like the seeing, understanding and working with light is something that I think you kind of have to have an appreciation for light and you need to, you need to learn how to interpret light and how to work with it. Creativity can only learn, be learned to a certain degree, I think, I personally believe. But it, there is certainly things that you can learn on, you know, certain poses or setups and things like that. But yeah, you, you need to have a base knowledge of, of how to operate a camera. [01:06:42] Speaker D: Completely agree. [01:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:45] Speaker C: What did, what did season two look like? So you did these five weddings and [01:06:48] Speaker D: you were like, all right, let's, let's go. [01:06:50] Speaker C: What did season two look like? Do you remember how many weddings roughly, and what, what it took for you [01:06:54] Speaker D: to get more bookings? [01:06:56] Speaker A: No, I don't remember. I have the worst memory, by the way. I don't remember how many I shot, but I remember it took off fairly well and I was in a position of letting go of pretty much most of my commercial stuff. I was still shooting a bit of sport for the first two years, I think, just to complement income. I do know I was heavily trying to align myself with CELEBRANTS I was doing expos? I was doing lots of expos? And that got the ball rolling relatively quickly. And I learned an awful lot from those expos as well because I sort of started to connect with other photographers and just I was like looking at other people's work constantly and you know, what they offer and how to offer it. And I did some really crazy style shoots over the first few years as well. Like, if I called up my friends and said, guys, I want to do a style shoot, they all know it was a massive production. I remember the craziest one I've ever done and it got featured in Modern Weddings magazine, which was crazy. I think that was like in the second or third year. But we did this incredible shoot in the Creswick Forest in, in the middle of winter. There was this, it was end of autumn maybe as this massive grandfather oak tree. And everything was like, I had this, it's very European inspired. And I had this vision of like the, the sort of darker, moody kind of, which was very on trend at the time. And so we had a florist and a styling company that I had become friends with that were all on board and we created like this gigantic arbor, like this circular arbor which is completely covered in these deep purple, deep red kind of florals. And we had candles everywhere. We had a person doing stationery with like the most beautiful calligraphy. We had a table dinner set up with like pears and moss and candles and deer heads. And to top it off, all off, we ended up having an actual owl that came in. And I remember what the craziest thing. I have to see if I. I do have the photo somewhere in the archive. I have to dig them up. But I do remember the craziest thing that I had in my mind was I had at one expo met a girl. No, actually I met her at a wedding first. I met her at a wedding that I shot that was also live streamed to Channel nine, but we can get into that later. Anyway, I met the lady. I met the. She's. She was running Eternal Bridal at the time, which is a bridal shop. And Eternal Bridal, I don't know if they're still around, but they were selling Galila half gowns and a Galilee half gown can cost, you know, anywhere north of 20 to 30 thousand dollars. And in my mind I had professional models. I had the styling company, I had the stationery, I had the florist, I had this massive production. And I can be very type A when it comes to these things. So I had everything, like, organized and spreadsheeted and, you know, storyboards, and, like, the whole thing was worked out so I could literally walk into them and go, like, this is what I'm producing. And very arrogantly of me, I said, this is going to be featured in production. I want this dress. And they said, sure. Which one would you like? Cool. [01:10:38] Speaker B: Nice work. [01:10:40] Speaker A: So I. I fluked my way into borrowing a 25, 000 gown for the [01:10:46] Speaker C: shoot that you took into the forest at Creswick. I go mountain biking there. It's not clean. That's crazy. How did you keep it? How did you not ruin it? [01:10:59] Speaker A: We did our best, and we somehow managed to do it, and I had no feature lined up. This was purely. This was purely a crazy idea and vision that I had in my head that I needed to creatively just vomit out, to just get it out. And I had all these people that decided, this is amazing. We want to be on board. What can we bring? And so. And then I borrowed jewelry from a jeweler. I had these incredible rings that I was able to borrow. We had, like, I said, we had the owls that came in, you know, like, it was. It was insane. We were there all day. Like, we got there, like, 7:00am in the morning, and it was. [01:11:42] Speaker C: It was. [01:11:43] Speaker A: By the time we finished shooting, it was dark, and, like, we. We hung chandeliers from the tree and, like, this ocean of candles. I'll find the photos for you. [01:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah, please send them into. Yeah, email them to us or something so that we can bring them up on the Monday night show and show everybody this insane production. [01:12:02] Speaker A: It was. It was pretty out there. Yeah. But those were, like, the things that I. That I did at the very start. And, like, I did another one of these crazy shoots down in lawn because I had it in my mind that I wanted to shoot more lawn. And, like, I sort of, you know, created a portfolio. But I. And this is. This is what I did at the start, too. Like, I made it very clear that these were style shoots, and these style shoots were featured in magazines, but it was very clear that it was a style shoot. It wasn't a wedding. And I communicated that very clearly. But I tried to, like, align myself with, you know, wedding stylists and planners and, you know, presented my crazy ideas, and for some reason, they were crazy enough to do it with me. And it was great because it got featured and it got traction, and it's sort of, like, snowballed from there. And I guess having a background in business management really helped me to, you know, have a, have a clear understanding of like, okay, well I need to. Who's my ideal client? Where. Where will I find my ideal client? Or what is my ideal client into? What do they do for work? What are they drawn to? Where did I take the inspiration? Where would they likely go for planning? And so I tried to position myself in those areas and obviously my style had changed a little bit. You know, it was like the dark, moody, bohemian kind of thing that was very trendy at the time. And then I sort of learned very quickly that the best work I can produce is if I'm authentic with myself. And you know, and it's sort of. Obviously as you grow as a photographer, your skill set and your aesthetics change as you get older, you know, your skill set and your aesthetics change. And I guess my work has evolved into a much more refined aesthetic that it is right now. But this feels the most authentic to me. But I'm great that I, I'm grateful for the fact that I, you know, got to move through a few different styles and genres of photography to, to find myself in this space now where I feel completely at home and 100 authentic and to what it is that I, that I'm drawn to. [01:14:27] Speaker C: Nice. [01:14:27] Speaker B: I've got a question about the wedding, the wedding business for. Are there key differences that you find between shooting, say a wedding somewhere in Europe versus shooting weddings in Australia? Are there things that kind of, wow, that's weird that they don't do the same thing? [01:14:42] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But the first thing that comes to mind is I have a. I've got a wedding coming up in Sweden on, in June. The biggest difference between Australian weddings and Swedish weddings. For instance, in Australian weddings we try and, you know, have four or five speeches and give them a three minute time limit and that is it. In Sweden, the longest I've done is 19 speeches and anyone who wants a microphone can have the microphone and have a go. [01:15:10] Speaker C: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was, that was. It is one of the worst parts of the. Although I bet some of those speeches are great. Like some of them because they're off the cuff and it's some weird, you know, relation who gets up and says something that's cool and funny and you learn a bit more about the. [01:15:32] Speaker D: But gosh, when, when the speeches drag on, it's rough. [01:15:36] Speaker A: How good is your Swedish, Justin? Because mine's rubbish and so I don't. [01:15:39] Speaker C: Oh, good point. Okay, so you're just, you're just, they're just waiting Take one photo of each person, one reaction photo of the crowd, and then just stand and like. Oh, no, no. [01:15:50] Speaker A: I quite like it, though, because, like, I actually thoroughly enjoy speeches at weddings. I think they're one of the best moments for me because you get such a cool insight and they can draw out so much emotion, which, you know, what we spoke about earlier, which I'm really drawn to, when you have speeches in languages that you don't understand. Like, I have a bit of Italian and French in me, but that's it. Swedish, I tap out. But like, it's, it's really, it's really funny because it's so many speeches and you, you take your shots of the speakers, but it's kind of like a guessing game of like, okay, so are you going to lean into something funny? Is this going to be emotional? Like, where should I be? Who should I focus on? And like, it's. It. But it's kind of cool because it's. It's kind of like. It's almost like you're having a blind. Like a blindfolded dinner because you don't know. Oh, don't drop your pen. [01:16:43] Speaker C: Yeah, too late. [01:16:46] Speaker A: But you don't. You don't know what they're saying. And what is this going to cause? Do you know what I mean? [01:16:54] Speaker C: That sounds super interesting. That would be really fun, actually. Obviously it would be easier if you could understand, to be able to preempt what's happening and what you want to do. But I actually said to Jim a couple of times, because I stopped shooting [01:17:08] Speaker D: weddings a little while ago, and Jim still shoots weddings. We're business partners for a long time. Justin Gym Photography. Look it up and. [01:17:15] Speaker C: And I stopped and I said to Jim, I was like, I would shoot weddings if I could. If I could put headphones on for the whole day and not know what's happening, but only bring. Only take in visual information. No, I don't want to hear what anyone's saying. [01:17:34] Speaker D: I don't want to nothing. And I just want to do it visually. [01:17:38] Speaker C: I'd love to do that once, even [01:17:39] Speaker D: as like a second shooter who doesn't have to do any of the hard stuff just for the experience. I just think it would be really. [01:17:46] Speaker C: It's kind of like that. [01:17:47] Speaker D: Although you get the cues from the intonation and the laughs and the. And all that, but it's kind of like that. [01:17:54] Speaker C: You don't quite know what's unfolding. [01:17:56] Speaker D: You can just focus on what you're trying to document, not getting distracted by the words. [01:18:03] Speaker A: It's Funny, I have, I have a similar thing. I would love to photograph a wedding where I am literally completely ignored. [01:18:13] Speaker C: Exactly. [01:18:14] Speaker A: Complete documentary approach. Because, like the word documentary and editorial have been thrown around a lot and it's, you know, I'm the documentary editorial, blah, blah, blah. And yes, those are two, but they're two very different styles. And I would love to just shoot an entire wedding day completely documentary. It's almost like I'm wearing an invisible cloak and you're just the fly on the wall and you have. Nobody talks to you, nobody asks you any questions. You're not the timekeeper. You don't do anything. Because those are all roles that you wear as a wedding photographer. Right. Because people come to you and it's like, what are we doing here and what are we doing now? And like, you know, all those kind of things. I would love to shoot a wedding where I'm completely ignored and I just observe the chaos and I get to document the chaos. And I would love that. [01:19:02] Speaker D: Yeah, that. [01:19:03] Speaker C: That is the dream. And I think the only way to potentially pull that off, unless the, the [01:19:09] Speaker D: couple's right into it, but even the family might get a bit weird about it. [01:19:13] Speaker C: The only way to pull it off [01:19:14] Speaker D: would be to tell, like to pretend you're a guest and just tell everyone we're not having a photographer, you know, and just have. [01:19:22] Speaker A: I couldn't, I couldn't hold back like I, I was. Because. [01:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah, because then you get all those. Then you get all those dodgy uncles that stand up with their iPad and take photos. [01:19:33] Speaker C: Exactly. Or so then the only other way [01:19:35] Speaker D: to do it is basically is to have a photographer who's there. And even if they're only there for sort of the main, the main ceremony and, and they do their own styled shoot or something like that, and you just let. And then, and then you just pretend. You just kind of sink into the background. Just pretend you're just a guest. [01:19:50] Speaker A: I am. It's funny, like, because I. So I've just, I've just booked a job where they. I'm going to be with them for five days. They're doing all these things in the lead up. So the, the. It's a. It's a couple from New York. They live in Berlin, they're getting married in France and they were part of a wedding in Sweden last year. And that particular couple had their photographer follow them around for five days. And then by the time the wedding day came around, every single guest knew the photographer and had somewhat of a rapport with the photographer. And so therefore the photographer just blended in and these guys fell in love with that idea. And as soon as they told me this, I was like, oh my God, please, please book me. I want to do this. And I have. And so we're starting off in Paris with like a family dinner and a portrait session, and then we're going to the chateau and they have like some wine tastings and yoga sessions and art classes and all that kind of stuff. And I'm, I'm hovering around everything. And then I'm kind of hoping that by the time the wedding day comes along that everyone just is really familiar with me. And I kind of just booked blend into, you know, the crowd and the, and the guests and, and actually be able to have more of that documentary experience because nobody is going to be so consciously aware of me. Like, yes, they're aware of me because they've met me and I'm there and I'm part of the crew. So I'm kind of hoping that this will give me the opportunity. And they really into the documentary thing. So I'm kind of hoping that I finally get a chance to sort of dabble into that a little bit, which would be really cool. [01:21:31] Speaker D: That's awesome. [01:21:32] Speaker C: That sounds so much fun. [01:21:34] Speaker B: Big job though. [01:21:35] Speaker D: Yeah, huge, huge, huge commitment. [01:21:38] Speaker C: You couldn't, I mean, you probably could. [01:21:39] Speaker D: It would be very difficult to make a business out of five day wedding shoots, you know, and, and have any kind of life. Like that would be, that would be, [01:21:49] Speaker C: that would be very difficult. [01:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, if, if I would, I would commit to more of these if they're in the southern hedge hemisphere, because this is where I spend most of my time. But like I'm literally flying over there for this job. So I'm, I'm flying to Europe for eight days, which, yeah, it's, it's again, we're back to like, it's a very humbling experience for people to, to wanting me to do that. And it's awesome and I'm so excited and I feel incredibly lucky to have these opportunities. I've worked extremely hard to, to be in this position and to, you know, reap the benefits of it is incredible. But I'd be up for more. Five days, five day wedding shoes, but most of them down here. [01:22:27] Speaker C: Closer to home. [01:22:28] Speaker A: Closer to home. Yeah. [01:22:30] Speaker C: Closer to home. [01:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:34] Speaker C: Where do I got so many questions while we're on destination weddings. What sucks about destination weddings? Every wedding photographer at some point is like, ooh, I could, people could pay me to fly cool places and I'll [01:22:48] Speaker D: take their photos for their weddings and it's like a free holiday that I get paid for and it'll just be great. And then, and then they sort of try and book destination weddings. [01:22:56] Speaker C: You've, you've done it is, is it mostly while you've already been based in Europe or have you done these kind [01:23:02] Speaker D: of ones where it's literally I'm flying to this country to shoot this wedding and then flying home again. Have you done those as well? [01:23:08] Speaker A: I have done those. I try and keep them to a minimum though, because for me, and this is sort of what I said earlier is like I'm happy if I'm already there because I want to see my family anyway. I try and align it, but I don't want to actively chase work in Europe and then having to go, you know, every second month or so back and forth. Yeah, there is other photographers that place themselves in Europe for, you know, three, four months and if that fits in with their lifestyle here, then that's great. I sort of tend to do like a six to eight week stint, go over, see family, catch up with, you know, I've got a huge family so I try and catch up with everyone and have a little holiday in between for just me and river and shoot weddings in that time because river wants to have one on one time with her grandparents or her cousin, uncles or whatever. But I try and keep these, these jobs that, you know, flying over to Paris for, for eight days. I love travel and it's, it doesn't bother me. In fact, you know, I have a, I have a very busy life here. I have horses and children and animals and everything else. So for me, flying is like, oh, I get to watch a movie in full or I get to read a book. Yeah, so I like that. But at the same time my life is here and my work is mostly here. And so, yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily chase them. [01:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah, fair enough. [01:24:46] Speaker C: Probably not the last business question, but [01:24:49] Speaker D: close to the end, who knows what else will pop into my head. [01:24:52] Speaker C: So you mentioned wedding exposure, networking, styled shoots. [01:25:02] Speaker D: I'm trying to think of what other [01:25:05] Speaker C: marketing efforts you were talking about in the early days. I'd love to know what worked then that no longer works or that you no longer pursue. [01:25:16] Speaker D: What works now? [01:25:18] Speaker C: What, like what? Have you seen change in how wedding [01:25:21] Speaker D: photographers need to book clients? [01:25:22] Speaker C: And also what stayed the same, what's been a constant, what's where you're like, it worked then, it works now. [01:25:28] Speaker D: This just works. Keep doing this. [01:25:32] Speaker A: I think so I Don't really do style shoots anymore. I, and I honestly don't know how many people still do if they're still such a. Like they were a really common thing. I know there's a lot of workshops that offer portfolio building sessions. I think a lot of maybe newer photographers are more drawn to that rather than going out and, and building that whole style shoot on their own. This is what I did and I sort of, I saw it as an opportunity to make connections within the industry and I just, like I was a nobody, but I just reached out to people and say, hey, I've got this idea. Do you want to help? And it kind of worked. So I think now I feel like it's moved more into a space of there's a bunch of people that offer portfolio building workshops where they do style shoes and teach people how to shoot in a certain way. Oh, my life died. Sorry. [01:26:33] Speaker C: That's okay. Moody. It's a moody look. It's great. [01:26:39] Speaker A: The sun's come out, so hopefully it's okay. Facebook's definitely dead. I feel like Facebook was a thing. And Instagram, Instagram is such a funny thing. I love it and I hate it. I hate it so much, to be honest. I think, and again, this is, I think, where, where the authenticity is really important in my eyes. Like, there's a lot of trend stuff that, you know, drives an awful lot of engagement and views and all that kind of thing, but it might not necessarily feel authentic to, to your brand or to your business. And this is, this is the space where I'm finding myself in. Like there's, there's a lot of really cool trendy stuff that I probably should be doing if I wanted to continue to grow my audience at a more rapid speed. Oh, here we go. Completely dark. But so, yeah, Instagram's changed, but Instagram is still an extremely powerful tool. I think blogs, I feel like they've lost a lot of, like, they blogs used to. Blog submissions used to do a lot of heavy lifting for SEO and, and getting your work out there and that kind of thing. And I still, there is still a handful of blogs that I really love and submit to regularly. And desk support's awesome, but in terms of like, it's tough because, like, I've, I guess I've been doing this for such a long time. A lot of my work is like heavily Instagram and word of mouth and having very well established relationships with other vendors and suppliers. The biggest thing for me also is being on recommended supplier lists for venues that, you know, I have worked at several times. I have a really good relationship with their planners or stylists or event managers and you get on their suppliers and that makes a huge difference. And it's more like to. Yeah, I think for my particular business, like, it's, it's having build trust in the brand and trust on the product that it gets recommended in a very organic way. And I have to play the, the Instagram game obviously very heavily. I guess that's where. That's where I'm at with look, it works for me and I don't. Yeah, I don't double too much in any other sort of market marketing or have a huge marketing spending budget of that for that kind of thing. [01:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:31] Speaker C: So to recap, like relationships with venue [01:29:36] Speaker D: operators, wedding planners, that kind of stuff has, has always worked and, and you would imagine always will work. That'll always be something that you should be cultivating, working hard for your clients to get a good result and, and making them super happy so that word of mouth spreads. Hey, who did. Who shot your wedding? Those photos were great. You know, like, were they fun to have around on the day? Yep. Easy. Anne was great. And then that's, that's your word of mouth. [01:30:00] Speaker A: I think giving that very personalized experience is super important. Like it will reflect in Google reviews, for instance, is a big thing. People really big on Google reviews to, to, you know, see the authenticity of what you're portraying yourself to be. But having that actual client feedback, I think it's a huge thing. And for me, it's like there's a lot of boutique studios out there now that, you know, you don't really know who's going to shoot your day on the, on. On the actual wedding day. [01:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:39] Speaker A: But I think, like, I try and position myself as a, like this is what you see is what you get. And I try. And if you go through my Google reviews, I'm really proud of that too, is that, that people will say that I was able to, you know, integrate myself very easily and nicely. And it felt like, you know, I've been a friend that they've known for years to give them that personal experience because a wedding day is such an emotionally charged day. And you know, up until this day they were probably stressed and things didn't go to plan and they're worried they forgot something or something's going to, you know, run out of time or whatever it might be. You need to be able to play into these things quickly. And I think that builds so much more that is marketing that you can't pay for because those people will turn away from their wedding day and go and tell their friends or you know, about their experience and what it felt like and then that's stays in their memory. I had people, I photographed a couple last year that followed me on Instagram for six years because they met me at a wedding six years ago and they weren't engaged time, but they followed me for six years. And then she, as soon as she got engaged, she messaged me and said, I follow you for this long because I knew I wanted you. And she, I, I ended up photographing her wedding. And, and that is such a, such a cool thing. Like, like you can't pay for stuff like that, you know, like how do you market that? Where do you put your money to get that kind of thing happening? I'm just going to do one quick thing to improve the exposure. Hang on one second. [01:32:17] Speaker C: Okay, you do that. I'm going to read out a couple of comments from the comment section and then maybe, Greg, if you're happy to, maybe we'll switch gears into gear a little bit. [01:32:27] Speaker B: Indeed. [01:32:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:32:29] Speaker B: Well played. [01:32:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:32:30] Speaker C: A couple of comments. [01:32:32] Speaker A: Hi, Andrew. [01:32:33] Speaker C: Andrew Fanorti. That's a fun last name. Is that Fanorti? Is that the last name? [01:32:37] Speaker A: Yes. [01:32:39] Speaker C: My favorite German boxes. [01:32:42] Speaker A: Andrew [01:32:46] Speaker C: Bottle Brush films. Is that what I'm saying? Yep. [01:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [01:32:49] Speaker C: Very cool. [01:32:50] Speaker D: Nice. [01:32:52] Speaker C: What else? Stuart Lyle says morning everyone sneaking in to watch in between shoots. Nice work, nice work. Little sneaky drop in. David Mascara says my first digital wedding was scary. I only had the D200 for two weeks and to me it was a whole different language. I had two F5s as backups. Backups. [01:33:12] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:33:15] Speaker C: If I. He says, if I remember correctly, I [01:33:16] Speaker D: put it in program and let it rip. [01:33:18] Speaker C: I had no clue. Well, I mean, it's a nick on menu. [01:33:22] Speaker D: No one has a clue how to use them. [01:33:24] Speaker C: What else? Rodney Nicholson says some of the best picks come from that spontaneous moment he [01:33:29] Speaker D: was talking about when we were saying about shooting a wedding with no one knowing you were there. That would be just so cool. [01:33:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:37] Speaker C: And finally, Joel Bramley. Hey, Joel. What's up? Says shot a wedding for friends with Olympus 4/3, E420 and onboard flash only. All I had at the time, not for me, but much respect for those that do this and do it well. [01:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:33:54] Speaker C: Sometimes you got to try it to know it's not for you. [01:33:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:33:59] Speaker A: You should ask Matt about his. Matt Crummons, about his first wedding experience. [01:34:03] Speaker C: I think we did maybe I'm trying to remember. It was a four hour episode basically with Matt. [01:34:09] Speaker A: So did he tell you who saved his ass? [01:34:13] Speaker C: Maybe he hasn't told. Do you want to tell the story or do we need to get Matt [01:34:17] Speaker D: back on to find it out? [01:34:18] Speaker C: Like how should we do this? [01:34:21] Speaker A: Okay, Matt had booked a. Had booked a wedding client. And what's the hall called? It's in the city. The Mural Hall. I can't remember what it's called, but it's a very dark venue and Matt hadn't shot a wedding and I think he came back from Sydney and he was tired, hungover. I can't remember what it was. Anyway, he'd asked me to come and second shoot for him and I basically. Basically shot the entire wedding for him while he was second shooting for me. [01:34:56] Speaker C: Well, we'll be able to bring that one up. [01:34:58] Speaker A: He was still. He was still shooting Olympus at the time and his Olympus just could not handle the lower lights. Yeah, because that, that place is super dark. [01:35:07] Speaker C: Gosh. Shooting. Shooting a micro 4/3 in some of the. [01:35:11] Speaker D: Like for weddings, it's just. [01:35:12] Speaker C: You can't. [01:35:13] Speaker D: No, not unless it's all outside during the daytime. That's never gonna work. [01:35:18] Speaker A: Yeah, but here is me smacking him off and I'm having technical difficulties the entire time. [01:35:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, but you're not a. You're not a professional live streamer. That's different. [01:35:27] Speaker A: No, that's true. [01:35:30] Speaker C: All right, let's. What's a good way to lead into gear? You shoot digital and film for a lot of your weddings. Explain to us why you need a camera strap that can hold four to five cameras. [01:35:43] Speaker A: Us. Well, if I have a wedding that requires both digital and film, I have my two digital bodies obviously that are sitting on the harness. And then I've got like sort of my main. I've got three film cameras that I really like to take to a wedding. One is just. [01:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh yeah, go. Let's bring up the prompts for sure. [01:36:11] Speaker C: Let me. I'll make you bigger. [01:36:12] Speaker D: Hang on. [01:36:13] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:36:15] Speaker A: So. So this is the. This is the go to. I love her so much. Obviously for. Mostly for portraits. This is not something on the fly. That's the Hasselblad. She's chunky, she's heavy, but she's my favorite piece of equipment. And if I get booked for film on a wedding day, I can guarantee you that there will be media format. So that's. That's one of them. And then I just have a normal Canon A V. What are they called again? This is I'm so bad at this kind of stuff. It's like, it's the, it's just a normal DSLR film body. So I've got at least the two digital bodies. [01:36:56] Speaker C: Do you have a 1V? [01:36:58] Speaker A: Yes, I do. [01:36:59] Speaker C: Is it a 1V? Ah, damn you. Do you want to sell it? [01:37:03] Speaker A: Absolutely not. [01:37:05] Speaker C: I can swap you for one of my one ends. I feel so inferior having the older model. Okay, so you use it quite a. You've got medium format which like I say is full like slow portraits set up. [01:37:19] Speaker D: But then. [01:37:20] Speaker C: So you've got a 1V which is quite like. That was, that was one of the [01:37:23] Speaker D: most advanced film cameras ever made. [01:37:25] Speaker A: What's the last film body that they did? And it's brilliant. And that's sort of like, you know, for, for the 35 mil stuff gets mostly shot on that. I shoot a little bit of 35 mil on this guy, which is the only Nikon in my connection. [01:37:42] Speaker C: Oh yeah, what, what model is that? Do you know? [01:37:45] Speaker D: What, what that. [01:37:45] Speaker A: What's the fa. [01:37:47] Speaker D: Oh yeah, yeah. [01:37:49] Speaker C: Nice. [01:37:49] Speaker D: Cool. [01:37:50] Speaker A: I. There's actually. Oh, there's film in there. But yeah. So I have a look, I have a few film toys that I love. But then the other one I have is a Fuji TW3 which is a, a split frame. So it's. Instead of getting 36 shots on a 35 roll, I get 74, which I love. [01:38:17] Speaker B: Sounds like half frame. Yeah, [01:38:21] Speaker A: it's. It's a little point and shoot. It's really, really cool. And I, I shot a wedding in Bali actually and gave the groom and his groomsman the little Fuji while we were with the girls and let them just go wild and then changed film, gave it to the girls when we were with groom and so they could collect. Because it's a really simple point and shoot and it's not an intimidating camera. But these photos then came into the final collection of their gallery and it was photos taken by them. And if you have a friend point a camera at you, you're more likely to be relaxed and do something fun where if a stranger comes to take points the camera at you, you always going to hesitate a little bit. So that was kind of fun. And then sometimes what I do with this particular camera is chuck, like a, a 3200t max roll into it on the dance floor and just get a. Let it pass around on the dance floor. [01:39:22] Speaker C: Cool. [01:39:23] Speaker A: That's kind of fun. And the, the rest of the 35 mil stuff is shot on the, on the Canon and then doing portraits, I Use the, the House of Blood. But yeah, so I have these five cameras that are my go to film cameras for weddings, which is why I need the homes. [01:39:42] Speaker B: And so how often are, you know, you're obviously presenting these options to your clients, prospective clients that are looking to book you. And how many, like on a percentage basis, how many sort of go, oh, actually let's get some film stuff too. How many people take it up? [01:39:57] Speaker A: Oh, I'm going to say maybe 30, 35% take up some kind of film. I have the, in my brochure there is, there's film add ons. So they can, you know, they can go from we just want one roll of medium format to there's a whole 10 roll package. I don't have a full day coverage on just film. I haven't done that. I wouldn't mind doing it, but I haven't done it. So yeah, they can choose from like, you know, we just want one role. We just want two roles. They can choose. We want one black and white in color. So some, some couples only add like two rolls of medium format for their portraits. Some roll, some people add, you know, three rolls of 35 mil and three rolls of medium format and spread them out over the day. And I kind of discuss with them like, you know, what it is that, that draws them to film. Like what, what, what specifics, what's, what's the, like, tell me what, what, what does the aesthetic mean to you? Or like what's, what's in, why are you interested in this? So I can kind of gauge a, what film stock to use, but also when to use it. Obviously if they're booking six roles, then the film coverage is going to be spread over the entire day. But if they say, for instance, just book two rolls of medium format, one black and white, one color. I go, okay, well what exactly do you want me to shoot with this? Some people really enjoy having their final, like when they done with their getting ready, having that portrait taken before the ceremony, or they want to sew Portia's at sunset with the Hasselblad. Or, you know, so it's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's kind of like a pick and choose menu as to what you like. And I try and educate people as to, you know, like I try and find out why are they drawn to film. Why do you want this medium? Because it's not cheap. [01:41:56] Speaker C: I was about to say, does it cost a lot more for a couple [01:42:01] Speaker D: to get say like a middle of the road kind of film add on package with you. What sort of price range is that in? Is it in hundreds of dollars? Is it in thousands of dollars? [01:42:13] Speaker A: It's, it's not in the thousands? Not in the multiple thousands? No, it's in the hundreds. Absolutely, yes. Depending on how many rolls of film obviously they want. You know, I mean, you have to remember that there's also a lot of risk with shooting film. You know, you don't know what if something fails? And this has to be communicated very clearly to the client. Obviously. My gear is very well looked after and serviced and cleaned. And, you know, I do my very best to make sure that my equipment is in good order. So nothing, you know, there's no blank roles coming out. But films are predictable. You just never know. And yeah, it is expensive like film stock, just to buy the film stock is expensive to, you know, have to developing costs. And, and the, the equipment is not cheap like shooting on a Hasselblad is. It's not, it's not a cheap investment for my business to have, you know, and we have our normal overheads of, you know, insurance and Internet and all those kind of things. So all of that rolls into the cost of booking a wedding photographer, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:43:20] Speaker B: And do you think that that's the greatest misconception about people when they do ask for, you know, what would it cost us to, you know, to book you for a wedding? So, for example, do you think that that's one of the greatest kind of misunderstandings, that as a professional, you've got to factor in all of those costs, You've got to factor in the fact that you've got five plus cameras to meet this client's needs. Is that, is that something that you come across? [01:43:45] Speaker A: Not so much anymore. And I'm not like, I'm happy to explain my pricing, but I don't need to justify it. I think I, I always sort of say if someone was combata about price, that's, that's fine, but when was the last time you went to Kohl's and bartered about the price of the checkout? Yeah, I don't think you ever do that. So, yeah, why do it, you know, with me? And I don't have these experiences, which is great, but I always, like, if, if I'm not within someone's budget, then I, I, that's, that's a, like, that's, that's a shame. But let's see where your budget sits. And rather than devaluing the service that I provide, we just trim it to what it is that you can afford, so you can still have the quality of the product and the product that you seek, but you just can't have it to the extent that you would like it. So you know, you might not be able to afford my eight hour package with six rolls of film as an add on, but you might be able to afford four hours with two rolls of film. So to just to, you know, you're not devaluing the product itself, you just trimming it to a point where they can afford it and still have that experience. And I think it's really like, I think there is a bit of a thing at the moment where there's been, there's been a huge flood of new wedding photographers that you know, presumably work in their Monday to Friday 9 to 5 and figured, oh, we'll shoot some weddings on the weekends and we'll shoot them really cheap. You know, I'll offer you a full day with an album and a second shooter for 12 hours for $1500. And you just sit there and go, okay, you're going to shoot 100 weddings this season and you're going to disappoint 80% of those clients because you cannot deliver and you cannot run a sustainable business on this. And unfortunately the client is the one at the receiving end at the end of the day. [01:45:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:57] Speaker A: So I think it's, it's a little bit on us to continue to educate the public on, you know, running a sustainable business. And, and I'm by no means, you know, skyrocketingly expensive. I think there is, you know, like it needs to be, everyone should have the opportunity to be able to have beautiful photography of whatever life milestone it is that they're going through or experiencing. So I think I sort of sit there and I price myself in a way where I can run a sustainable business. I have a huge amount of overhead heads, you know, this is my job. Inflation comes in, you know, cost of living comes in, all of those things. So I'm not sitting here trying to become a millionaire with this job, but I'm trying to run a sustainable business and I'm trying to have a comfortable life. And I believe that over the years that I've been doing this and you know, I have refined my craft and my, my skill set over the past 20 years. I, I, I, like in any other job I would also have a certain, you know, pay rise or a paycheck that reflects that level of skill and commitment. And yeah, I, I, I think you just need to find a balance in that yeah, yeah. [01:47:23] Speaker B: No, I think that's fair. Justin, have you ever come across clients in your, your time, you and Jim, where they've kind of challenged what you're worth? [01:47:33] Speaker C: Not really. Only in passing and maybe not even. I can't even remember if it was [01:47:39] Speaker D: clients or like comments from, you know, groomsmen or whatever. Just being a bit funny about sort of the price of how much wedding photographers get paid. And one, it doesn't really matter what your rate is. If someone is happy with the value exchange. It's, it's irrelevant what your, what your hourly rate is or how much money. If you make a million dollars or something. If they're happy with the service that's being provided and you provide a great service, everyone's happy. Who cares? But one of the things I would often say to the groomsmen, if they did make that comment, I was like, [01:48:16] Speaker C: yeah, it seems quite high for, for [01:48:18] Speaker D: a day when you look, look at the price. [01:48:20] Speaker C: And well, I know that. So it's not just a day, but. And they would always say that. They'd be like, oh yeah, I know you got to edit the photos and stuff too. And I was like, let's pretend there is no editing. Let's pretend I'm a plumber and I book you 18 months in advance to come to my house for 12 hours [01:48:38] Speaker D: on a Saturday and finish at midnight. [01:48:40] Speaker C: What are you going to charge me? Yeah, because it's not, because it's not going to be 110 an hour on a Saturday in 18 months, finishing at midnight, where you get probably no breaks, maybe 20 minutes at dinner time if you're lucky. [01:48:54] Speaker D: But maybe your food goes cold because you were shooting something because the speeches were happening while the food got served for the, the, you know, like it's. [01:49:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:02] Speaker C: Even if you just looked at the hours on the wedding day and the [01:49:06] Speaker D: equipment required and stuff like that, it's [01:49:09] Speaker C: probably still, if you compared it to [01:49:10] Speaker D: a trade in the hundreds of dollars an hour. So let's say 200, $250 an hour because it's on a Saturday, finishing at midnight. 12 hour day, no breaks. [01:49:20] Speaker C: Yeah, you're already at like two or [01:49:22] Speaker D: two and a half grand. Forgetting about meetings in the lead up, editing afterwards, any deliverables and all that kind of stuff. [01:49:31] Speaker C: So, so if you look at it that way, it's, it's. [01:49:34] Speaker D: Yeah, it's nowhere near as. [01:49:37] Speaker A: Look at it this way also, like, we're seasonal workers. We only have a certain amount of time a year to make our annual income. Like we don't have like wedding season dies off in winter like most of us. Yes, we have the occasional job here and there, but it dies like there's not much work around. So we seasonal workers and overheads that you have for a photography business are quite high. Yes. I work from home, sure. But I, I need to upgrade my equipment. My equipment needs to be serviced. I need insurance on my equipment. And then the sun comes out. Wonderful. I need insurance on my equipment. You know, I have software subscriptions that, you know, are in in the thousands to be able to archive now with the. I'm not sure if you guys experience this already, but the cost of hard drives is. [01:50:30] Speaker C: Oh yeah. [01:50:31] Speaker A: Skyrocketing. SD card. The cost of SD cards is skyrocketing. I have to have certain, you know, workflows in place to make sure that no data is being lost and secured from my clients. Like all of these things cost money. If a camera breaks down, I can't sit there and go, oh, well, I have to wait for the next financial year to buy a new one because it's not in the budget for this year. No, if the camera breaks, I have to go and buy one on the spot if the business has the money or not. Like, you know, it's. But it's these kind of things that I think people just don't see or understand. And I feel like it's up to us to, you know, gently educate the public on these things. [01:51:17] Speaker C: I found, yeah, we didn't get a lot of pushback. I actually, I do have another question [01:51:22] Speaker D: for you and the second about business. [01:51:24] Speaker C: We didn't get a lot of pushback because I think there was this, there was this mid range price point and [01:51:28] Speaker D: I don't know if you ever experienced this and because you jumped straight from like testing out a couple of weddings to a decent price point. [01:51:37] Speaker C: But we, I went through, basically I [01:51:40] Speaker D: shot a wedding for a friend at $500 and then like actually for an ex girlfriend. But that's a whole different story for $500. Not enough time on this podcast for that one. [01:51:52] Speaker C: And then, and then at each, basically each additional wedding I booked after that, [01:51:58] Speaker D: I increased the price and I, and [01:52:01] Speaker C: in, in some people's minds, I was undercutting other photographers. [01:52:04] Speaker D: But I had a very clear, I [01:52:06] Speaker C: had two clear things in my mind. One, I'm not worth. [01:52:10] Speaker D: Because I wasn't like you, I wasn't a long experienced professional photographer transitioning into weddings. I was kind of learning everything as, as I went and really throwing everything at it. But I was Quite new to it. So I'm like, I'm not going to charge anywhere near what a professional charges because that would be disrespectful to them and the client. [01:52:27] Speaker A: Did you communicate that, that you, that you were not well, there you go. That's perfect. [01:52:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I was like, I've, I've like [01:52:33] Speaker D: here, I've shot this one wedding, I second shot this other wedding. [01:52:37] Speaker C: Here's my other work that I've been [01:52:39] Speaker D: doing in other genres. They knew that I was new because it was quite clear, like you got a couple of wedding shoots and stuff. And so it was like, that's why I'm priced the way I am. And then every. To get to a price that was sustainable just took a number of weddings basically as I built my experience to get to a sustainable price. [01:52:59] Speaker C: What I, what I thought was a [01:53:00] Speaker D: sustainable price though was obviously still too low, as we all figure out later on, like that we thought that would be okay. But there's way more cost than what you think. [01:53:09] Speaker C: But also in that price that's kind of like above really cheap where it's [01:53:16] Speaker D: obvious you're new to the business, but below what a professional sort of should be charging in your area in that, [01:53:23] Speaker C: in that middle point where you're talking [01:53:25] Speaker D: about kind of like the weekend people that are kind of trying to over deliver for a cheap price. That's where you'll find a lot of people questioning what you charge and what they're going to get and whether you can do a cheaper price and stuff like that. In that, that. Yeah, that no man's land kind of price point where you're not really, you're not just, you haven't just started, but you're also not at the price that, that reflects kind of the market for a professional photographer in your area shooting a wedding. [01:53:54] Speaker C: Does that, does that make sense? [01:53:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it totally makes sense. I also think there is like something that I experience is there is people and especially given the current, you know, cost of living and, and all that kind of stuff. So people, people are really looking after the dollars. So let's say we have two couples, right? They book my premium package, one couple will book it and we'll just. That's it. Like there is no, there's just a normal communication help with the planning and, and the execution on the day. And there's just, there's full trust there. There's no micromanaging. There's nothing like it's just beautiful smooth sailing for everybody. And then you have the client that books the same package but for them, besides the venue, I might be the second most expensive investment. And yes, they have trust in me and my ability and the product that I'm going to produce for them. But because that is such a big investment for them, they are worried and they trying to make sure that that investment gets them exactly what they're hoping. So they unfortunately then sometimes fall into the, into the fold of, oh, I need to micromanage a little bit. And I think it's a matter of like trying to help them to understand that I fully understand, you know, how much does this for you and how important this is to you. And you just got to try them on these. So I thankfully I find myself just with those kind of scenarios. I don't really have anyone that sort of tries to bargain about my prices. I sometimes have someone come and go, you know what, we really like you, we would love to have you, but you're just outside of our budget. And you go, you know what, like, let me know what your budget is. Perhaps we can trim something together that makes it possible. But that's probably as far as it goes for me in terms of the, the, you know, cost and pricing discussions. [01:55:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's important to stand your ground on that sort of stuff. [01:56:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:56:02] Speaker B: Because once again, word of mouth can be one of your greatest allies, but can also be one of your greatest enemies. If one person got a discount, well, the next one's going to want a discount. You know, all of a sudden you're undercutting yourself. [01:56:13] Speaker C: Well, not only that, you do you never want a client to think that [01:56:15] Speaker D: they missed, they, they paid more. [01:56:17] Speaker C: You know, like, what if someone's friend, you know, friends of friends or whatever, and they're like, oh Yeah, I got 500 bucks off. Didn't you ask for like, oh, you, you paid more. You know, like then they feel bad, like they missed out. [01:56:28] Speaker A: And this is where, this is where it's important that you don't devalue the, the actual product. So if someone comes and I had this for a job not long ago, they were like, oh, well, you know, I sent them through the quote and they came back and said, oh look, we were kind of hoping to keep it within this budget and it was multi days. And I said, okay, well let's, let's have a look at the coverage over the, over the days and see where we can trim the coverage to bring it closer to the budget that you had anticipated. So I'm not actually just saying, you know what, sure, you asked for a discount, I'm going to give it to, to you and therefore I devalue the actual product. I go, you know what, cool, let's see where we can, you know, trim it down a little bit to bring it closer to what it is that you can afford. So you still. And I think it's, it's the, the psychology behind it is really important that at the end of the day they don't seeing a product that has lost some value, but they understanding that the, the value of the product is still the same, but we have to try and trim it to bring it back to what it is that we can afford. [01:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, clear distinction. [01:57:36] Speaker D: Yeah, that's great advice. Everyone listen to that. If you've tried to grow your wedding [01:57:41] Speaker C: business or something or be sustainable or in any business actually at all, listen to that advice. That's very smart. [01:57:46] Speaker B: Yep. [01:57:47] Speaker C: Completely different subject. What's the deal with wedding content creators? What are they? Do you know what they are? Have you seen one? [01:57:56] Speaker A: Ah, Justin, did you have to go there? [01:58:00] Speaker C: I saved it. I saved it for the end. I saved it for the end. [01:58:03] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, I have worked with them. I've worked with one just on Tuesday. Look. Yes, I think there is a space for them. So far. I've had great experiences with them. I've heard about some horrendous experiences. Thankfully, they, it's not something that I had to go through. I have, I have multiple opinions on this. So to me, the biggest one perhaps [01:58:37] Speaker C: is why, well, this is what I want. So before you get into that, so in your experience, because I'm being, I've, I've kind of on the periphery, seen this coming up, but I don't know, like, what do they offer as a service? Like what? And they're charging for the, like, how does it work? Do you know? [01:58:59] Speaker A: So technically, so technically what it is is they follow you around with an iPhone and shoot a bunch of content on the phone that then they provide in general. Like, you know, depending on the package you book with them, they give you 3, 4, 5, 5 reels that they cut together for you so you have stuff to share on social media. I think that was the original intention behind it. Makes me question why do you get married in the first place? Like you doing it to keep up with Joneses and so you can have content to share on social media. Or are you getting married because you're making a lifetime commitment to the one person person that is most important to you? I don't know. Like, you know, where do we sit in that space? Where I can see the benefit of it is for people that are on a budget and you know, photos is one of the most important things because at the end of the day, once the wedding is over, like all you have to remember the day by is photos or visuals where videography falls into. Now if you want to book and spend a huge chunk of your budget on a good photographer, because you value photography, then you might not have the budget to also have the videography content. And from my personal experience, like some of those moving visuals from videography to me mean the most. Like there is footage of my grandfather that I have from my wedding that means the absolute world to me, especially because his life's coming to an end, you know, so I get the sentiment behind it and it's, you know, so the content creation for people that value that and that who, who see that as important but can't afford it, I think it's, it's a fabulous alternative. Where I have an issue with is if it purely becomes the beast that's meant to feed social media. So where then, you know, certain real templates are being played out during a portrait session or, you know, we're already running 20 minutes late because the makeup artist took too long and now the social media content creator comes in and goes, oh no, no, no, no, we need to do this, that and the other. Because we need it for the reels they've booked and that interrupts the natural flow of the day. It puts everyone on the back foot and it also interrupts organic moments. And that's where I have an issue with it. [02:01:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:01:46] Speaker A: So I guess if you're booking a, a content creator for the fact that you just want some behind the scenes footage that you can look back on, totally get it. If you're doing it because you want to become an influencer or you are an influencer and you, you getting married for the clicks and the serotonin hit, then I have an issue with it. [02:02:05] Speaker C: Yeah, it's weird because it's, it seems almost like, like they're just videographers with no equipment. [02:02:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:02:18] Speaker C: Like if they're, if they're going to [02:02:20] Speaker D: the point of making like, like full [02:02:22] Speaker C: on reels and stuff like that, I can get it if it's very like candid vlog style stuff. But if, but if they're like setting [02:02:33] Speaker D: up shots and doing things like that, [02:02:34] Speaker C: it's like, hey, buy a camera, don't just. [02:02:36] Speaker A: And it's also. Yeah. And it's, I think the content creators, because it's been around now for two, three, two, three years now. And it's now moving into a space where content creators go, you know what, I'll bring a film camera and I'll shoot film for you. [02:02:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:02:54] Speaker A: And I'm like, so that's, that's a service that I offer directly cutting into what I do. And it's also them shooting over your shoulder. [02:03:10] Speaker D: Yeah. Or in front of you. [02:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, oh, yeah. Or in front of you. Like, you know, if, if they haven't been too many weddings and they think, oh, the kiss is happening. Let me step into the middle of the aisle to, to get this, you know, low quality iPhone video nobody cares about instead of the photographer. That's been thousands of dollars to make sure that they get these moments. So yeah, so there's been some, there's been some sneaky things from just a handful and I personally haven't experienced it. The content creators that I have worked with have been absolutely fantastic, very respectful. I make sure that we have a quick conversation at the start of the day so we're all on the same page. And, and thankfully I have, I guess, a, a clientele that appreciates that certain style and aesthetic and, and behavior on the day of every vendor. So I haven't had any bad experiences. But there are content creators out there that are trying to then dip into, oh, I'll bring the film camera or now I'll bring the camcorder, which has become a huge thing and directly cuts into, into what it is that we're doing. And you also, you then going to use my creativity or my creative setups to gather your shots and then market them as stuff where it's not. [02:04:34] Speaker D: That's the other thing. [02:04:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's, that's where it becomes a very messy and muddy kind of situation for me because if I'm hired to photograph it and I, you know, like we talked about earlier, like we look at light and work with light differently to what your normal Joe Blow does outside. And creators decided, I'm going to pick up a phone because I can make some extra cash on the weekend to then go, oh, I'll bring my film camera because I can just shoot over the photographer's shoulder and get some brilliant shots. I'll just chuck the camera on auto and it'll be fine, you know, and all of a sudden I'm a film photographer and I can charge X amount of money, but you're benefiting of my skill that I have worked on and trained and harness it over the last 20 years. And that's where it becomes a problem in my eyes. [02:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:25] Speaker C: Do you think. [02:05:26] Speaker D: Final question on this, I promise, because I've loved it, though, so far. [02:05:31] Speaker C: Do you think that their wedding content [02:05:34] Speaker D: creators are having any impact on wedding photographers in terms of the market and budget and things like that? Like, I know you said last season was a tricky one for the wedding industry in general, probably for. For other reasons, like for just the general economy and things like that, but do you think content creators are going to be maybe getting some of the budget that was traditionally allocated to either videographers or photographers? Or do you think it'll just be another additional service like photo booths used to be or still are and things like that? [02:06:10] Speaker A: I don't think that it has an impact on the photography side of things, but it absolutely has an impact on videography, because where before content creators, if the budget was a little bit tight and they've got everything set and videography was kind of like a thing that was kind of added, well, let's see how much money we've got left in the budget and we'll see if we can afford it. And more times than not, they would say it's a little bit out of reach, but we're going to book it anyway because we can see the value in us where now they go, oh, now we can't afford a videography, we're just going to get the content creator because it's going to cost us a. A fraction of the price and we still get some footage. It's not so much photography that's affected by it, But I do 100% believe that videography would be affected by it. [02:07:03] Speaker D: Right. [02:07:04] Speaker B: Yep. [02:07:06] Speaker C: We'll see how it plays out. Hopefully everyone knows what I believe, which [02:07:09] Speaker D: is vertical video is not long for [02:07:11] Speaker C: this world, but we'll see. [02:07:14] Speaker A: Yeah, look, and I don't want to. I don't want to have a, you know, know, a crack at this, like, good, good for whoever came up with this idea and has become this thing. Anyone who wants to jump on, on being an entrepreneur and finding a niche and doing these kind of things, and I think there is room for all of us to work together. Where I do have issues is that, you know, this is a very new product and the people that are offering this product are generally not people that have been in the wedding industry yet. They're selling themselves as, you know, they're charging a good amount of money for this product. And now we have content creators that have been doing it for two or three years, so they have now got some experience. But in the, in the initial stages where it sort of started, you know, they would take content photos from photographers to advertise their product that wasn't their stuff. But they haven't worked in this field to understand that this is bad etiquette and this is not how you go about it. So a lot of people burn bridges from the very get go. And I think maybe this is also why a lot of people are a little bit on the fence about this particular product and like you kind of need to, so, so if I, you know, I put a lot of emphasis and, and work very hard to have a, an elevated experience for my clients. So you know, I, I like to conduct myself in a certain way and I like to communicate in a certain way and I like to blend in rather than stand out. And you know, it's all about not just meeting expectations but exceeding expectations and expectations. And if you have someone that enters the wedding industry as a brand new service provider that hasn't really played in that field but now books high end clients there, there's a certain way of how to move within those circles and how to conduct yourself and, and that needs to be understood and learned perhaps. And there's been a few times where I've had to like hey, just you know, turn it down or pull it back a little bit because it's too much in their face. So yeah, so I think the more experience they get, I, I can see the value in a certain way, but I can also, I also have issues with it. [02:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's fair. [02:09:48] Speaker C: I actually have one follow up that's not about that but it's a kind of a follow up. But I know it's two hours and nine minutes in, you've been absolutely amazing and you've got a huge day ahead. So if you don't have time for [02:09:59] Speaker D: this question, that's totally fine. [02:10:01] Speaker A: Telling the guys to get the dog out because the dog's barking. [02:10:07] Speaker C: I'm just curious as well. So like I said, Jim still shoots [02:10:10] Speaker D: a ton of weddings. [02:10:12] Speaker C: I don't anymore. But something that he's sort of wrestled with a lot lately is marketing himself [02:10:19] Speaker D: on Instagram to compete, compete with other wedding photographers. [02:10:23] Speaker C: They he doesn't like make reels and [02:10:27] Speaker D: stuff on a wedding day. [02:10:27] Speaker C: Like when we, when we were on at a wedding, like we used to [02:10:30] Speaker D: shoot together a lot, big weddings. [02:10:32] Speaker C: Like we would just, it was non stop with two of us. [02:10:35] Speaker D: We might find time to like take, I might take a photo of Jim while he's doing the group photo or something up on A ladder or vice versa, just because I've got the camera there and I just take a photo and then we post it at nine weeks later when we've finished editing all the weddings for summer, you know, like. [02:10:50] Speaker C: But he's noticing a lot of wedding [02:10:53] Speaker D: photographers that are posting reels, you know, from every wedding and creating reels of them shooting, you know, the portrait shoot and things like that. [02:11:03] Speaker C: What are your thoughts on that side [02:11:05] Speaker D: of marketing yourself and how and dedicating time during the wedding day to create some content for your business? [02:11:14] Speaker A: I'm very careful with this, but that's just that, that's just my personal approach to again, how I would like to be seen and how I conduct myself at a wedding. There are certainly, you know, photographers out there that have very loud and bubbly personalities. And that is the driving marketing strategy is to put themselves out there in that way to attract a certain clientele, I guess. And you know what, if it works for them, that's amazing. And if they have the confidence and, and the personality to match and to, to bring that energy and I guess they booking clients based on the fact that they putting themselves out there in that way and they, you know, you know, have they 360 cameras and stick them to their cameras and just have themselves going, being loud and proud and all that kind of stuff. And I think if that is, if that is their marketing good for you for, you know, having that confidence and being that extroverted person to be able to do that. The, the clientele that I guess I try to attract is not quite that and that's okay because there's, there's enough clients or there's enough work for all of us. And, and again, you need to be authentic and you need to be yourself because I might not be able to, you know, I, I could try and force myself to promote myself in that way, but then I will attract a certain clientele that I might not be able to match that energy at all times or I might not be able to, to produce what it is that they expect me to produce because I'm not authentic in how I display myself. So then my product is probably not going to line up with what they're expecting to see. Yeah, um, so for me, I hate having my face in the camera. So I have a little hot shoe attachment that I can pop on my camera that my phone goes on and I can just hit record while I'm doing some photos. So I get behind the scenes footage. I always communicate this with my clients so they always know it's never going to be a surprise that I've, you know, film them on my phone and then they surprised to see it. Or if I have a second shooter with me, I, I might ask the second shooter, hey, can you get some behind the scenes stuff of me standing in the field during sunset photos and, and, but that's about as, as far as it goes for me sometimes, you know, if I'm shooting on my own but like the, the, the events manager happens to be with me at some point sunset, you know, I was like, hey, can I give you my phone? Can you take a couple of shots or take a couple of videos so I have some content. But I think it just, it just all depends on you. You need to, you need to identify your own brand and you need to identify who you are as a business and how you want your business to be seen, I guess. And then your marketing strategies will fall into place on their own. So you know, if, if you guys aren't that loud, outgoing, then don't present yourself like that because it's not you, it's not authentic. Right? [02:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:14:29] Speaker A: So if you're the kind of person like myself and I'm like, you know what? I don't mind, you know, an 8 to 10 second video of me standing in the field and sunset taking photos or you know, occasionally talking into the camera on an Instagram story. And that's how I show my face. I don't share a great deal of personal stuff on my Instagram either. Like I don't, I don't really show River. I, I sometimes show some stuff of the farm because people really want to see that and that's fine, but that's very rarely that I do that. But that's just, I don't know, that's, I guess that's just my business approach, approach how I would like to be perceived and how I would like to be seen because that's me. So I guess like again we're coming back to the thing like just be authentic and, and present yourself in a way that a. Feels comfortable to you, is, is true to who you are and attracts the type of clientele that you want. I think that's the, the advice that I would give for that and I, [02:15:33] Speaker B: I think that's amazing and advice and just on the, on the topic of, you know, photographers capturing content of themselves, I think there's always, you know, it's always that healthy balance because it is an effective marketing tool. It does help you promote what you do. But I think it's all Comes with the. The mindset of this day is about the client. You know, it's. It's not about me optimizing my, you know, my social media reach. And there's always got to be a healthy balance. And I'm sure we're going to see people that swing too far towards promoting them spending too much time in an event to promote themselves, that they miss opportunity. You know, they miss shots, they miss moments, and that's the last thing that you're there for. You're there to capture every of. Every one of those moments. [02:16:18] Speaker A: And that plays. Sorry to cut you off there. That plays also into where photographers get annoyed with, you know, let's. Let's use the family photo list as an example. Like, it's calmed down an awful lot on. On the. On the, you know, social groups. But there's always been chatter about people being annoyed. Oh, my clients have provided me with a shot list of 20 family photos. I can't be bothered. I hate these. I hate doing a group shot. Blah, blah, blah. I understand all of that. I get that. I don't enjoy family photos either. But at the end of the day, I'm a service provider, and these photos are important. My exposure is so bad. [02:17:01] Speaker D: It's okay. [02:17:03] Speaker C: Look at you. You got to understand a lot to do this job. [02:17:09] Speaker A: My damn light broke, like, battery. I forgot to charge it. The point is. The point is we're service provider, right? Like, they're booking us to provide a service. And if your service is to be a showman and bring the vibes and bring the energy and all of that kind of stuff, then I guess it is appropriate to do this kind of thing on a wedding day. If you're not, and if this is not how you produce promoting yourself, then it would be so inappropriate, like, if I. The way I promote myself, if. If I would now go out and then, you know, be loud and proud and bring all these extra things and, you know, film myself the entire time and take selfies and all that kind of thing. People would be going like, whoa, it's not what we expected. [02:17:55] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I think while you were explaining your [02:17:58] Speaker D: thoughts around this, it kind of clicked [02:17:59] Speaker C: with me because I. I had that. That thought of, like, hey, hey, when you're. When you're making reels, you're not. [02:18:06] Speaker D: Being a wedding photographer was the kind of. The thought I had in my mind [02:18:09] Speaker C: of like, unless, obviously there's downtime or [02:18:11] Speaker D: something like that and there's time. Sweet. [02:18:14] Speaker C: But, like, you know, it's a busy [02:18:16] Speaker D: day and you've got to be fully focused if you want to do a good job. And I also had that thought of what's the client going to be thinking? [02:18:22] Speaker C: Like, we always used to stress out. I used to stress out. Jim would always be like, we need to eat. And I'll be like, dude, I just, you know, I don't want them watching [02:18:29] Speaker D: me, like, not work, sitting around doing nothing, you know. [02:18:33] Speaker C: You know, if I need to check something on my phone. We'd be checking the what, like, exactly [02:18:39] Speaker D: where Sunset was going to be on our phone. And I'd be worried they thought I was texting, you know, anyway, and that, that was just my own stuff. [02:18:46] Speaker C: But while you were talking, I think what clicked for me is you. If that's what they're putting out there [02:18:52] Speaker D: and that's how they're booking clients, they're going to expect them to make reels on the day. [02:18:56] Speaker C: They've seen it. That's why they booked them. Maybe they're kind of into that side of it where they're like, oh, this guy's a bit of a performer, a bit of a social media, media personality. And that's not going to bother the [02:19:06] Speaker D: client because that's the image that's been portrayed and the expectation that's been set. So, yeah, that makes total sense. [02:19:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. Like, lean into it if that's who you are. And I applaud you if that's who you are. And you can lean into that and you can use that to make yourself known. And let's be honest, those people will be knowing because it's going to make the rounds and, and it's going to be trending and, you know, you're going to get the views and if you have that personality, use it as your strength. You know, if you'll feel comfortable in that space, then use that. But if you don't, it's not the end of the world. Like, just find what feels comfortable for you and roll with that. [02:19:45] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, it could be just as valuable to have a meaning conversation, meaningful conversation with the parents of the bride or groom or both, and leave a last lasting impression on them. And the bridal party, you could get just as much work out of that as you could to get out of a real. [02:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [02:20:02] Speaker D: There's plenty of ways. [02:20:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. Like, to me, I, like, I, I'm really self conscious about pulling out my phone in, in eyesight of any, any guest in attendance or the couple. I just like, I don't want that. Like, I'm glued to my phone I can look at my phone if I, you know, need to check a. A timeline or, you know, I need to check where the sun's gonna set or, you know, if I don't wear my watch, then I'll check the time, but other than that, my phone doesn't come out because I don't want to be seen as, like, you know, scrolling or texting or whatever. But then other people have their phone out all the time to do selfies and videos and, like, again, each their own. Totally. [02:20:44] Speaker D: Yeah. Yep. [02:20:49] Speaker C: Should we call it. Is that a bit. Is there anything else we need to talk about? [02:20:52] Speaker A: Oh, this is fun, isn't it? [02:20:54] Speaker C: Well, I mean, I'm just mindful you've. You've got shifting to do and all sorts of stuff going on. [02:20:58] Speaker A: Oh, my camera battery's dying. No. [02:21:03] Speaker C: Well, I guess that's all we've got time for. [02:21:10] Speaker A: I don't want to move house. Like, I don't want. [02:21:12] Speaker C: I don't want. Yeah, you're like, no, let's keep going. Oh, that's great. That's so funny. Now we better. We better wrap it up before that [02:21:24] Speaker D: flashing red sign stops. Get flashing. [02:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Before we lose you. And thank you so much. It's been a tremendous conversation and. And I'm sure our viewers have appreciated just how candid you've been about how to run a wedding business and what the ups and downs are and what the trends are and. And more importantly, I think you've given people some insight and some ideas around how they can progress their own career, especially if they're new to this genre. So for your time and your information and inspiration, we say thank you very much for joining us today. What's coming up for you in the near future? What gigs have you got coming up? [02:22:03] Speaker A: Well, I have an endless editing queue that I need to get through, and then. Then we're heading off to Europe at the end of May for some fun and some work and then hopefully a little bit of break during winter and then the next season kicks in in August already, so. But yeah, I kind of like winter because it's. It's nice. I have some time for myself. I'll do some horse riding competitions and, yeah, just go. Go winter camping and those kind of things. So, yeah, that's about it. [02:22:36] Speaker B: Really. [02:22:37] Speaker D: Sounds amazing. [02:22:39] Speaker B: Well, thank you once again. [02:22:40] Speaker A: Just. [02:22:40] Speaker B: You want to roll some music and say goodbye to some peeps? [02:22:43] Speaker C: I do some reggae. Rodney Nicholson says, fun show. Very informative. It was very informative. I loved it. David Mascaris is great stuff. Richard Grenfell Thrive Photography says weddings are a tough beast. I'm pleased I've retired from them. Me too, Richard. Me too. Paul Henderson. Great chat. Have to run. Luckily, I never have to photograph a wedding. [02:23:07] Speaker D: Sounds too scary. [02:23:08] Speaker C: No, it's not scary. It's just. Really. What else? I think that's David Mascara says you've got the first nick on with matrix metering. That's something I didn't realize the fa. Cool to know. I don't know. [02:23:22] Speaker B: I think that's. [02:23:23] Speaker C: That's it. Thanks, everybody that was here today, including Stuart Lyle and Andrew Fanorti and Glenn Lavender, Nick Fletcher, Dennis Smith, the Plumber, Matt Bruce Moyle. It was a busy day. It was good to see you all. Philip Johnson, Felicity and we'll. We'll catch you guys on the next one, yeah? [02:23:39] Speaker B: Be safe, everyone. [02:23:40] Speaker A: Thank you.