[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Well, g' day everybody and welcome back to the Camera Light Podcast. It is Thursday 15th October, 9am Australian Eastern Daylight Time.
Justin and I have had a very busy weekend last week along with a couple of other members of our team, but we're not going to go into that today. But if you do see either of us nodding off or perhaps stretching some sore muscle because we went to the bright festival of photography, but we'll leave it at that. And I've said we're not here to talk about that today. You can wait for Monday night.
Of course, being a Thursday morning, we are joined by an amazing guest.
We have with us today in the studio, award winning naturalist, wildlife photographer and writer Peter Rowland. G', day mate, how are you?
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Good morning, Greg. Good morning, Justin. Yeah, I'm going good.
[00:01:05] Speaker C: I'm.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah, sort of just a beautiful, beautiful day here in the. We're at the bottom of the Macquarie Pass in the beautiful Illawarra. So. No, it's, it's gorgeous.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Oh, nice. That sounds delightful.
[00:01:16] Speaker C: Nice. And the weather's good there today.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: It's. Well actually, you know, it was like 33, 34 degrees two days ago.
Like yeah, 12, 12 to 19, but getting up to 20. But yeah, yeah, I saw that.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: I saw the 37 degree forecast pop up on my Instagram feed. I saw a post come up about it and I thought surely that's an old post from summer or something. You know how sometimes your algorithm gives you weird old stuff and I looked at it. Oh no, that's what Sydney's getting 37 in the middle, like at the start
[00:01:49] Speaker A: of spring and then fires and also I don't know what we're going to be in for, but hey, it's a lot of people love the warm weather. I'm a cold person, so I don't.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Yeah, me too, me too. I get that, I get that.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Interesting. I like both, I like, I like a bit of, I like it to go back and forth, you know, I like to mix it up. I don't like, I don't think I'd like to live in, in, you know, Darwin or something. I know Darwin changes from wet to dry and things, but I don't think I'd like hot year round and I don't think I'd like cold year round. I think I could live in Antarctica.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: True.
Yeah.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Good call, boss. Good call.
Now Peter, let's dive into a question. You know you are an author. Writer. Author. You've had I think 14 books. I saw that you've written or Co written and you've had countless articles published in one of my favorite magazines, the Australian Geographic.
I was just before we went live, Jay, I don't know if you heard, but I was talking to Peter. How I remember my dad rushing off to the news agents to get the very first copy for me of Australian Geographic magazine and, and back in the day when our kids were little, we, we spent every weekend going to the Australian Geographic shop and buying, you know, little scientific toys and animal puzzles and Steve Parish books. You know, obviously Steve Parish books were often found in there and it was Steve Parish who recommended you join us. Peter, that's, that's pretty high praise.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean Steve obviously is a legend and I just was, was lucky enough I was up in the Sunshine coast doing a bit of work and I dropped in and spent a couple of days with Steve for his birthday and, and then he was sort of mentioning he was going to come on to chat to you guys the day after I left and yeah, he's a legend. He's a legend.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah, we spoke to him on his 81st plus one day birthday. So that was quite a privilege actually to, to speak to, you know, someone who has contributed so much to the landscape of photography in Australia and, but more importantly to you know, bringing awareness around our wildlife and our natural environment, which has been huge. And you, you have a very similar story to tell so we will get into that. But first of all, I'm really keen to know. I've taken the long way around to this question but you know, Australian Geographic, how did that first come about for you? How did you get involved with that?
You know, is there scope there still for, for people to engage like photographers who want to contribute work to magazines, you know, is that still a possibility?
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Oh, most certainly. I mean like all printed media, it comes and goes, it ebbs and flows. You know, Australian Geographic is, is like a prime example of that. Obviously when Dick Smith had it, it was pumping out, it was big. People were into the print media, the glossy mags and everything like that.
Now that they're doing like six year, they're owned by a Canadian company, Blue Ant Media, I think still own them. But when I got asked to do their bird column, which I did for about three years, it was sort of, there was a bit of history there. I mean like I worked at the Australian Museum of Natural history for about 20 odd years.
So when I was in there chatting to the team at Australian Geographic, we sort of started going back and forth over the different characters that came through the Museum, Tim Flannery and all the other sort of people that were in the era that I was there.
And then. Yeah, and then because the publisher I was with at the time, John Beaufoy over in the uk, he was sort of doing some sort of negotiations with Australian Geographic to, to get endorsements for the books we were writing.
And yeah, I think just the, the amalgamation of those two sort of events led Chrissy Goldrick, who was the, the, the lead at the time there, just sort of said, hey, but can you just jump in and do, do 12 articles for us? Which was obviously two years worth.
And then because of COVID they didn't want to change too many things, asked me to jump on for another year and yeah, it was great. I really loved it.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And what, what if anything did that teach you about, you know, your own work as a naturalist?
You know, working to not only photograph Australia's amazing natural landscape and wildlife, but you know, also bring to people's attention the need for conservation, the need for awareness and, and you know, an education on what's happening to our, our natural world.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean like the whole thing about the magazines intent and, and obviously the natural history books you mentioned. Steve before myself and other authors I've worked with doing amazing work out there. But it's all about awareness, isn't it? It's all about bringing that information and making people aware of things that are not necessarily in the public face all the time. You know, we've got obscure insects, we've got, we were chatting before like spiders that people want to try and avoid, but it's that like, I suppose ignorance is not the right word. It's just they haven't yet been alerted to the presence of this, this animal's situation, whether it's their behavior, their environmental requirements, their, the pressures for conservation and those sorts of things. So, so working with the magazine, it was just such an amazing experience to be able to say, hey, like shorebirds, you know, be aware when you go to the beach there's endangered species that you share the beach with and those box shaped cages that you might see sitting there are, are actually over the top of a nest and it's trying to protect the nest or keep your dog on the leash when it's breeding time and things like that. So yeah, so yeah, so I think it was, it was an amazing experience to be able to just, I suppose work to a brief which is, is the, you know, can be challenging thing when you're doing semi sort of journalistic writing for a magazine. They they say, hey, it's, it's reading time. We want you to write something on shorebirds or it's COVID lockdown. We want to use the right. Something on backyard birding and things like that. So. So I suppose you're constantly challenging yourself, constantly researching and, and trying to make it engaging.
Excuse me, in a very short format. Because you're limited to whatever it be 500 words or so. Yeah, so, yeah, so I mean, and also to answer your question earlier, there's plenty of scope for people to be doing that. And magazines are always looking for that recent sort of research that people are doing in certain species that can contribute to that learning of their readers. And so, yeah, if you're doing research or you're a photographer or whatever, you know, they're always looking for those great articles and great images.
[00:08:28] Speaker C: Do you think being a writer and photographer, do you think being a writer has influenced your photography in a way that, that photographers that purely shoot to accompany other people's writing may not have?
You know, like, do you think there is some influence there that you have that other people may not have?
[00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah, certainly. Justin, good question. And I wholeheartedly believe that when I first started doing photography, it was about just capturing the image. I want a picture of.
I like that bird or I like that reptile, like that insect, whichever, you know, I want to get a picture of it. And that's, you know, the, the photographer in me is going, I want to get that picture. But then you start to think about, well, what purpose is it serving? What, why am I getting that picture?
Am I, am I trying to capture it for a field guide? You know, am I trying to show its characteristics or am I trying to show its behavior? You know, so when talking about the Australian Geographic shorebird article, I wanted to get a picture of a hooded plover, which is, you know, a lot of people are aware of hooded plovers now and the endangered in certain states, but also get picture of someone in the background like feet of a person. So I took a picture of a plover running across the the sand and I got a beachgoers feet in the background showing that interaction of.
Yeah, two people using the same patch
[00:09:57] Speaker B: of sand without being crass. I think there's an only fans option there for you for, you know, plovers and feet. I hear that they're pretty popular these days.
[00:10:07] Speaker C: Quite niche.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Quite niche.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Quite niche.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: And just to follow on from that, you know, we talked was it last night? Would have been the week before because last week, of course, we're away.
Benjamin Erickson, who wildlife whales, he does it all, he runs workshops and we were chatting to him about, you know, how folks that do whale photography play a key role in the tracking and documentation of whales. You know, they recognize whales by their, by their tail and their dorsal fin and, and they, there's, you know, there's systems and services in place for them to contribute to that.
Is there a similar kind of process, project, whatever it may be, for, you know, Bird Life, for example, Australian Bird Life, for keeping a track especially of endangered species?
[00:10:53] Speaker A: There is, I mean it's, it's Bird Life as an organization run a thing called Bird Data. And it's about where certain birds are at certain times of the year. I mean, you've heard of the, the Bird week where we like, we do a bird count, it's coming up next week I think.
But yeah, it's, it's trying to get information on the abundance of birds. Now obviously surveying in certain areas is a great way to do that because you can count the numbers and things. But, but to be able to get pictures of critically endangered birds like swift parrots in a certain area gives the researchers at Birdlife and broader fields good data on where these birds are turning up and what their habitat requirements are while they, for the example for a swift parrot while it's on the mainland.
And then they can start putting in conservation actions to be able to keep those areas important areas for these endangered species. So yeah, but taking pictures when we look at endangered species, things like breeding birds which again, like reptiles and other fauna groups, giving location data away is not something we really want to be doing.
Okay, yeah, but giving information to researchers about where they're turning up then? Yes. I mean obviously that's, that's really important information.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And is that a case of the more people that contribute to it, the greater the efficiency and the accuracy of that data? I mean, is there ways, you know, can, can everyday wildlife photographers, you know, they don't have to be professional, they don't have to be well known, they don't have to have authored 14 books. You know what, they can obviously contribute to these sorts of things. Where's the best place for people to go finding that kind of option, do you think?
[00:12:45] Speaker A: I use INAP broadly? Like iNaturalist is like, it's a US based platform, but they've got a, like onaturalist global. I mean they've got a presence in every country. So, so the way I do it now, if you, you've got a phone or an iPhone or a Google Phone or whatever your choice is. But if you've got location abilities on it, you turn those on, you take your pictures of whatever you see, you upload them, people confirm the identity and then it gives the location information to the researchers. So it's linked with research platforms where, like people that are investigating Pogong moss, for instance, or Christmas beetles can jump on and go, hey, this was found in XYZ location.
We know they're there in.
On the 15th of October, for instance. So, yeah, so there's definitely a lot. And citizen. I mean, we all know that citizen science is proving to be such a huge font of information for researchers. We're getting new frogs I d. We're getting, you know, distributions of things we weren't aware of before. We're getting species that we thought were extinct turning up.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's a bit of that lately and I guess social media is to thank for spreading awareness around. That was it. A couple of weeks ago, they discovered a new wild cat species I saw on. On the Socials, something they'd never discovered before, which I thought was absolutely bananas when you think about it, you know, we don't. We don't truly know everything about what lives around us. Justin, sorry I cut you off earlier. I'm not sorry for cutting you off, but I'm sure you've got a question.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: Whatever the question was, it is utterly. Just left my brain. I can't remember. It'll come back to me sometime. The duration of this two hour podcast. Should we quickly check in with the live chat though, while I've.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah, say good night.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: Lucinda's in the chat. Good morning, Lucinda. Thanks for all your help over the weekend. Good morning.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah, massive effort.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: Morning. Nick says, fair dinkum. You blokes are looking fresh so far. Good morning. Oh, thanks, Nick.
Julie Powell. Good morning. Rodney Nicholson, East Coast Photography, says, good morning, shooters. Not from Foster today. On my way to cbr. Where's cbr? What am I for an extra long weekend?
I don't know.
Only one camera in one lens on board. XE5 and 70 into 40 Sigma. Well, that's nice. That'd be a nice simple little kit to rock around with @CBR. What's CBR Anyway, someone will put it in the chat. I have no idea.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah, let us know.
[00:15:17] Speaker C: Phil Thompson, good morning. And Grant Fleming, long time no see. Says, hey, team, good to see you. Grant. Yeah, he says, I've never thought about the GIS side of wildlife photography. Okay, what's with the acronyms? What's. Hang on.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Someone yeah, Come on, guys, we're struggling here this morning.
[00:15:36] Speaker C: Nothing is even. My brain is not running at full speed yet. Peter, do you know what GIS is?
[00:15:42] Speaker A: It's like the.
I think it's the Global Information System. It is like the. Like the location data.
[00:15:50] Speaker C: Right, right, right, right, right.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Why can't you just said that, Grant?
[00:15:54] Speaker C: Dumb it down for us, Grant.
And apparently Canberra is cbr. Okay, no more acronyms at all in the chat today, please.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Full words, simple words, small words.
[00:16:05] Speaker C: Keep it simple for us.
Good to see everybody. If you're joining us in the chat, tell us what you're up to today. Tell us where you're from and ask Peter a question. That's why we do these things live. You can just put something there. We'll bring it up. As long as it's not crazy, you can ask Peter a question.
What else do we need to quickly cover off Greg? Oh, yeah. Luckystraps.com Go there if you need a beautiful camera strap.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Use code Greg. Get yourself a cheeky little discount.
[00:16:29] Speaker C: Yeah, okay.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: It will. It will get me to Japan one day.
My sales.
I will be back slowly anyway.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Fundraising. Greg. A trip to Japan, Peter. But it's taken. It's taken. What are we up to? 223 episodes.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: We're still not there.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: We'll get there.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Yeah. No, yeah, you keep saying that.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: It took me a while too, Greg. But hey.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I've been before. I've. I've been four times, but it's been a while and I. I'm gagging to go back.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:58] Speaker C: And.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: And document one of my favorite. Have you in the world.
[00:17:01] Speaker C: Have you been there to photograph Peter, or just to try?
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, everywhere I go I take the camera, so. Yeah. So I always got a photograph. But most recently, yeah, I had a mission to go to Hokkaido to do some photography of cranes and still as seagulls and lots of nice things in the snow and on the ice floes and all that. So. Yeah, I did that in. In February this year.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Oh, I think I did see something.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: I hate that.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Now that you're nice. Yeah, now that I remember.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: So it was a successful trip.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: It was great.
You know, the weather was. They had blizzards and probably the most snow they've had for years.
We were really panicking. We. We went up through Nagano and up through the. I suppose the, like the northeast end of Honshu, the mainland.
And then we. I mean, the roads are horrendous. I mean, just crazy. But anyway, we got. We got To.
To Sapporo in Hokkaido. And it, I mean, was treacherous. It was just crazy.
So good. But anyway, yeah, I mean, it was perfect timing. Like, the weather was great. Everything was sort of sunny. We got snow in patches and things like that, and there was no wind. It was just. It was perfect until we got to. When we were going to go on the cruise to do the ice flow photography.
And then they. They canceled the cruise because the seas were too rough. But.
But hey, there was always a plan B. And I was so grateful I had my son Tom, who studied over there and. And is. Is fairly fluent in the language.
And so, yeah, he managed to get us onto a big icebreaker boat to get out at least to the ice flows and see Stella's seagulls on the ice.
Wow.
[00:18:50] Speaker C: So you had. You had a.
Essentially a local guide, almost. That's amazing. Yeah. How handy.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: I know.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: What do they call them? A handler. A handler, Yeah.
A fixer. That's right. And Peter, is that something that you regularly do that you'll, you know, you'll embark on a project, not in Australia, obviously, overseas, to document a bird species? Or is this. Is this because. Purely because your son was there and it was a great opportunity to catch up, but also get some great work done?
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Actually, it was a background to that. And it sort of comes back to the association with the publisher I was talking about in the uk and I went over like, I was doing a birding mega spot sport, which is like a birding guide to best places to go and see birds in Australia. And at the time we were planning a trip to the uk and it just so happened the British Bird Watching Fair happened to be coming up, and he sort of said, hey, might be a great place to go and launch the book.
And so I went over there, I got introduced to some wonderful people from wildlife tourism over there and just picked up a brochure. And the brochure was about birding in Japan in winter.
And on the COVID was Estella's seagull sitting on the top of an ice floe. And it was just like, I want to do that one day.
And so, yeah, so Covid happened, as we all know, and other things happened and family things and work things, but my kids were saying, we're going to Japan in winter. Do you want to tag along? And I just said, now's the time to do it.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: So, yeah, yeah, why not?
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Hey, yeah, exactly.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: So two trips in one, so family side saying, and photography. It's great.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's a way to do it. It's the way to do it.
We were chatting before Justin woke up and before we went live about this recent show that you traveled to. I was fascinated by it. It was a insects show and. But it wasn't, wasn't like a macro or photography show. It was more just about people that are passionate about insects in general. I thought that was fascinating. You tell us a little bit about that.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: It was so good. So this is the third year now I've been involved with the ABC Insect of the Year which is happening out now at the moment. So I'll flick you guys some links later on. But there's a voting happens all the way through to October, end of October. Sorry. And then they announce the winners. But the guys from ABC rang me and said, hey, if you can get down to the Wood End Insect Expo, we're going to sort of launch it there, do a couple of on air slots and talk to each of the six experts on the panel.
And I hadn't heard of Wood End Expo and I sort of jumped on, searched it up and it looked so awesome. So I ended up just booking a table down there and went down with my daughter for the whole weekend. And it was pumping, it was so good. But there was like, if you.
I've got lots of people come up to my ask me about books. Are there pictures of spiders in those books? Because I don't want to buy it if there are or whatever. So if you, if you got a fear of spiders, maybe the Insect Expo might be a bit misleading for you because.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Or scorpions for that matter. I think you said scorpions were on the cars too.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Yes, but there was like 52 exhibitors there. There's people that had live ants, they had people that had freeze dried tarantulas, they had people like brilliant artists that I met there and jewelry makers that were making bogong moths in titanium for earrings or whatever. It was just incredible.
And it was packed for three days straight. Pumping. Yeah.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Have you ever heard of that? Justin, that's, that's sort of on the way to your place from here.
[00:22:31] Speaker C: No.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Where was it?
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Where was it? Wood End. Oh, Wood End. No, I've never heard of the Expo. And you know what? I must live under a rock like some of these insects. I've never heard of the ABC Insect of the Year telling me that people vote for the insect, not for like a photo of an insect or something like that. It's just like hey, I like this spider or whatever and that's it. And, and then the Win at the most popular insect wins. Is that what it is?
[00:22:57] Speaker A: There's got to be more to it, really, Justin. But, yeah, no spiders, no squirrels. Purely insects.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: So, yeah, it's got eight legs. That's two. Two minutes. But.
But yeah, this is the third.
I agree.
And a great guy, Gab McGrath from ABC Ballarat. He's. It was his brainchild three years ago and he just wanted to bring more awareness to insects. And. And, yeah, we were chatting about the insect book I was doing and things like that back then.
Yeah. He said, oh, can you come on and be one of the. One of the judges? And then they got one of the experts. I suppose. I don't like using the word expert, but one of the panel people call it that.
And then, yeah, it's like invertebrates. Australia, Zoos, Victoria, ABC Gardening people. There's. Yeah, there's six people they nominated insect.
But what you were saying, Justin, like, the insect's pretty specky. I think they're all pretty awesome. But I do think people vote for the picture a lot of the time.
[00:23:57] Speaker C: Okay, so. So there is a picture associated with.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Yes, with the.
[00:24:01] Speaker C: Okay, so they're right, because they're nominating
[00:24:04] Speaker A: the insect, but not the picture. But yeah.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: What does the insect get out of it?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I was surprised.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: They get a little special.
[00:24:11] Speaker C: A teeny, tiny little trophy or something.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah, insects. They should.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: They should.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: I think they should. I think they're the stars of the show, after all. All these humans are cashing in on it.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: That's right. A bit of a little beetle sash.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: It's.
[00:24:25] Speaker C: They get glory.
Thank you.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: They do it for the exposure, I suppose. Like an influencer.
I hope they've got their own Instagram account, I say that much.
All right, let's. Let's talk more about you and this about. Especially this about arachnids. I've always held a long, firm belief that species of spiders are part of some sort of alien, you know, dust that fell to Earth billions of years ago because nobody needs eight legs and no one definitely needs eight eyes. That's just creepy and weird like that. That doesn't make sense to me, you know, and it just makes it all the more. I'm not scared of spiders. I'm fascinated by them. I don't get creeped out by them. But they're weird. Yeah. Like, they're just weird.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: Too many moving. And then when they. You know, when they shed their skin. I've seen a video of, like, a Tarantula shedding. And that is the creepiest thing I've ever seen in my life. That is like from the movie Alien. That is like a. That's like something that got cut from the main movie, I reckon.
[00:25:26] Speaker C: Anyway, enough about this. There's a huntsman living in my new shed. That it. It is. No shit. The biggest. I probably shouldn't swear anyway. No, it's definitely the biggest huntsman I've ever seen in my life. You know, when you see them, like, huntsmans usually flatten out kind of. I don't know whether that's their, like, hiding position or whatever, but I got a bit of a side profile on it because it was on a wall and it, you know, it had that kind of, you know, up and about. I guess maybe it wasn't a huntsman. What's the bigger. The gray.
The bigger gray one or Huntsman's?
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Well, huntsman's are pretty big, but you can sort of tell because their front pair of legs are longer than their back pair and they sort of have this big curvy motion with the curve. Yeah, I think.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: I think it had the curve, but it just had a back on it that was bigger than I was. It was creepy.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: She might have been pregnant. Maybe she's standing up.
[00:26:20] Speaker C: No.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Thousands of little baby hunter, Huntsman all over your shed.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: The most traumatic movie from my childhood was that movie that now, when you watch it, is absolutely hilarious. But back then it was terrifying. Arachnophobia. Do you guys remember that movie?
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Do you remember it when you're a kid?
[00:26:37] Speaker C: That was terrifying. Now you, like, realize they're all like little bits of plastic just been put around on strings or whatever. But back then that was terrifying.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Anyway. Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: Oh, dear, where were we?
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Photography.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Yeah, photography,
[00:26:52] Speaker B: as we like to do here, Peter, we like to roll back the clock a little bit. How far back is completely up to you, but I'm always keen to understand what.
What was the spark or the ignition that got you into photography and got you hooked on the natural world? You know, was it. Was it family influence? Was it purely based on where you grew up? You know, did you have key, key people in your life that inspired you to pick up a camera and to pursue that, that line of interest? Where did it begin for you?
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, it's hard to pinpoint an exact moment. I mean, it was definitely geography for me that got me interested in natural world. I'm born in Australia, but went to the UK when I was 18 months old. Grew up in the south of England. Which is this beautiful, picturesque Devon county green, rolling hills, seasides, you know, rock pools full of crabs and all that sort of stuff.
But the photography side of it is.
It's a bit of an odd story, really. I think it's one of those typical. I mean, this is probably my slightly altered recollection of what the event was, but let's just say it was a rainy day outside and I was bored and I was rummaging around some old trunks and came across slide projector and a heap of cassettes of slides and started thumbing through them. And they were my great grandfather's slides. And you know, I was putting them all up on the wall, you know, lots of pictures of people. But he was like.
He was just. He traveled around a lot. He was like chairman of Rolls Royce in Canada and he traveled all over the States and, you know, Europe and bits and pieces. But he took a lot of people in places and events like conch fishermen and things like that. But in amongst the area had a heap of Florida pictures of birds.
And as I got to the painted bunting, which is this beautiful iridescent sort of bluey, greeny reddish sort of thing, it just popped.
And I. I thought, that's an amazing bird. And then there were a few others, like Louisiana herons and cardinals and blue jays and whatever, and it was like, I want to give that a go. But of course I only had like an Instagram, an Instamatic camera back then. Mum had a box Brownie which I used to hang around my neck and look through, but.
And also one of those. Remember those? Well, you might remember, but you've seen those cold clip cameras where you take a picture and then you take the film out and put it in two metal plates and shove it under your armpit for a minute or two on the image. Yeah, they had one of those we used to muck around with.
But yeah, we had these little like Instamatic cameras, but everything was like twice as far away as what you thought it was.
And yeah, then we started building hides to try and get pictures, strapped them onto a telescope to try and get better pictures and things like that. So, yeah, so from there it was. Yeah, it was always going to be wildlife photography, just quickly.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: So these slides.
What sort of gear do you think he was shooting with and how? Because I recently tried to take a few photos of birds with the latest canon R5 Mark II with.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Well, that was your first mistake.
[00:30:08] Speaker C: The world's greatest autofocus and an amazing lens and stuff on it. And I was Missing shots and they're flying all over the place and they're darting it. How do you get a photo of a bird back then? I'm shooting, I'm assuming, so like shooting transparency or something on Kodachrome with some camera manual focus lens.
Oh, my gosh.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, they weren't the sharpest, obviously, but hey, they were from age 8, 9. Whatever I was. It was like. They were pretty awesome.
[00:30:42] Speaker C: Yeah. That's amazing. You just think of how difficult that would have been.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:47] Speaker C: Even to get close. Close enough and enough light and. Anyway, amazing.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: I think we take for granted today just how good we've got it with autofocus performance, let alone that, you know, you just put that aside as a. This is, you know. But actually, interestingly speaking, Rodney Nicholson's dropped a comment talking about skill, but I'm
[00:31:06] Speaker C: pretty sure that's what I'm missing, I think.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: Oh, is that what you're missing? Okay, yeah, I could have told you that. Um, but I think it was Rodney whose. Whose mum also gave him, or he stole one of the other a box brownie and he put it in an ice cream tub and surfed out to the back of the break and used it to do surf photography. Do you remember that? That we had that conversation with Rodney.
[00:31:27] Speaker C: That was his.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: And as soon as you mentioned the box brownie from your mum, you know, I think that was a very similar story for him. And in fact, I think we've heard a couple of other of our guests say that someone handed them a box brownie or they, you know, they got. They got the hold of one and that was kind of the first.
First, you know, first opportunity to pick up a camera. I think that's fascinating because, you know, they were clunky beasts.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yep. And everything was upside down. You hung it down, you looked through the top.
It was upside down. So.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes, it is correct. Thank you, Rodney. Yeah, he just posted correct. Yeah. Surfing out to the back of a.
A group of surfers and pulling it out of the ice cream container.
It just said, like, you just wouldn't comprehend it these days, would you?
[00:32:06] Speaker C: You go, no way.
[00:32:07] Speaker A: There's no way.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Anyway, well done. Well done, Rodney.
Okay. And so from there, you know, where did the photography go for you? Was a. An opportunity to explore a whole range of genres like we kind of all go through? Or was it a very dedicated mindset to. To wildlife and nature?
[00:32:27] Speaker A: No, it was, it was very generic, I think, in the early, early days. I mean, you photograph what you Got access to. So I think, yeah, as a kid, you know, I was always interested in wildlife, mainly birds. I was building nest boxes, I was building bird hides, I was putting out feeder tables, so. So that was an obvious subject, I think, in those days.
Then I did. When I moved to Australia, I was 15, and I did. Actually, a couple of years later, I did a. Like a dark room, like a short course in year 12 at school, and we exposed our own films and printed our own prints and black and white and whatever, and. And so that sort of opened me up to a bit more of experimental stuff. So I went around photographing all sorts of things, like shapes, textures, people, you know, anything that was interesting. And then I'd jump into the dark room. I actually ended up having a dark room at home in the garage and develop my own prints and things. So.
So, yeah, that became a bit more of a. And maybe that was because I didn't have a lot of really great gear to get to that next level of wildlife photography. You know, I was just. I had.
I think I had a practika at that stage, and only a few lenses, like a 105, a little zoom, and I can't remember if I don't think I need big lenses. So. So it was what. What I had access to sort of dictated what I photographed.
But there was always that underlying, I want to do wildlife photography. I want to do mainly bird photography. But that. That came later when. When I had access to better gear, got myself Canon T90s, a heap of lenses, started traveling a fair bit with the museum and got access to different locations, different species, and then, yeah, it sort of took off from there.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: Yep. And other than that, you know, that brief dark room course, was there any other photography education in those formative years?
[00:34:29] Speaker A: No, no. I mean, like, I used to thumb through heaps of books, as I think a lot of people probably do, like, you know, how to get better pictures of xyz. But, yeah, the next course I did was actually, we were talking about Steve Parish before, as I went and did a master class with Steve in 2015.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah, wow.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, wow.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: And now here, here you are with him, recommending you to be on a podcast.
How the tables have Turned.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: So privileged.
[00:34:57] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: Yeah, amazing.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: And so, you know, you talk to. We usually talk about gear towards the end, and we will talk about your current kit, but we'll leave that to the end of the show. But I'm just keen to keep that thread going. You know, you talked about getting access to better gear. What was that? Better gear for you in those days, you know, Was it finally getting some telephoto lenses or getting a. A faster camera? What. What was it for you?
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the. It was the.
I suppose. I mean, I mentioned the Canon T90 before and that was basically it. I had a few other things, but the T90s were the. I mean, they were. They were a brick. They were like this heavy metal. You couldn't break them if you, if you tried. But. But also, yeah, getting money, like, you know, starting to work and, and being able to afford to buy stuff. Not, not a lot, but, yeah, you know, just buying some different lenses, a lot of used stuff, which was good.
But also at that same time, I mean, I started working for the Australian Museum as a work experience student back in 83, and I ended up sort of working there on and off for about 20 years through to 2003 and, and doing field trips with them, going to other places sort of then, oh, I need better flash gear or I need, you know, macro lens or whatever, because we were like capturing frogs and lizards and, and that as part of the work we were doing. But it also then gave me access to subjects that I wanted to photograph. So. So, yeah, that was the path. So T90s, 2.2T90 bodies making. We were talking about Australian. I'm just going to digress for a sec, but we're talking about Australian Geographic. Before we. Actually, the guys I work with at the museum, there was a big thing by Dick Smith. He wanted to find evidence of night parrots, which, I don't know if you guys are familiar with them, but they're a nocturnal fat budgie description. I love that. I want one.
Yeah.
And they, they, like, live in arid parts of Australia and around the Spinifex tussocks, where they get protection and things like that. But they hadn't been cited for something like 70 years or so. And so Dick Smith ran this big campaign to try and get people interested in this species.
And for those that don't know. Sorry, Dick Smith was. He owned Australian Geographic back then. Yeah. Anyway, the museum found a dead one on the side of the road and they got the reward that he was offering, but it had to be for research purposes to go and find more evidence of them actually living. So we went off to central Queensland to do that and like, back then I was like.
I was quite sort of creative, I suppose, but because they were nocturnal, they were like the best chance you're going to have of getting pictures of one is obviously at night. So we would Be doing surveys, listening for calls. Not that we. We really knew what we were listening for because no one knew what the call was.
No.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: Anyway, of course.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: So I'm sprinkling bits of spin effects seed in like, little laneways between spin fix tussocks. And I made a camera trigger out of, you know, the little buzzers that you. When you walk into a shop, there's a little beam you break and it gives a buzzing sound to alert people that someone's come into the shop. Well, I set up one of those. I had a reflector on a piece of, like, pipe shoved into the ground. I had the beam end and then I ran a cable to the camera's auto release cable slot and had that set up as if something went across that beam, I'd get a picture. But of course, we're talking 1994.
So shooting on slide film, you get up in the morning and you go and have a look. I've got five pictures. Wonder what I've got. Said he had to wait for the next three weeks until you got back from the field, see what you had. And of course I didn't. Did not have a picture of night parrots, but hey, I've had pigeons and stone curlers and all sorts of other things. But.
[00:39:04] Speaker C: Right, so the system worked.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Yeah, obviously. And so where are these parrots now? Are they still.
Are they still surviving in Australia or is that still an undecided?
[00:39:15] Speaker A: No, no, no, there was great discovery made probably of. I mean, I'm gonna not get the dates right, but we'll say 10 years ago now. Yeah.
Of what their call was and someone recorded it. And then when people had access to the call, they would be able to then identify what they were hearing in the. In the outback. So, yeah, while they're not as wide widely, just like the sightings aren't coming from as wider distribution as what they were originally collecting did from the early naturalists. But there's been sightings in WA and central Queensland and. Yeah. In that sort of arid zone of Australia.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Do you think that's why they chose to become nocturnal? Because the daytime was just too extreme?
[00:40:01] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe, maybe, Maybe they'll win to
[00:40:04] Speaker B: people like you and I. Not like Justin. He can't decide exactly.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:11] Speaker C: Was the laser. The laser trigger, did you buy the components for that from Dick Smith Electronics?
[00:40:19] Speaker A: I probably did, Justin. I probably.
[00:40:21] Speaker C: That's a great question.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: I used to love those stores. You can go and buy every little individual type to make your own. Make your own circuit boards.
Yep. I got a kit one year and I made, had like a. It was probably a similar thing to what you described, like a, you know, burglar alarm. It was like a spy kit and you can make all these cool little things that would trigger when someone passed a beam. And I used to love that shot.
That was incredible. Dick Smith did quite a bit, didn't he, in his time? Obviously he had his retail empire that was quite prolific. And then he, he spearheaded National Australian Geographic. Sorry, I kept saying National Australian Geographic.
He even made Anzac biscuits for a while there. Did he make Dick Smith's Anzac biscuits? I think he did.
[00:41:03] Speaker A: He did. Well, didn't he?
[00:41:04] Speaker C: A whole heap of Dick stuff.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah, like, careful with your words.
[00:41:10] Speaker C: Yeah, he had, didn't he have Cancer Cola and stuff like that?
He did push into like a sort of like a home brand style, but like cheaper brand of stuff that was all supposed to sort of be Australian owned.
[00:41:26] Speaker A: I, I vaguely remember, you know, like the old boxes of matches called Redheads. Yeah, he might. He made. But instead of red headed. Yeah, that's awesome.
[00:41:38] Speaker C: What a great.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: How did he get that through back then?
[00:41:43] Speaker C: Dick Smith products.
Let's just see.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: I remember when he had that helicopter. He had that branded helicopter with his own logo like, you know, Dick Smith. Whatever it was.
[00:41:58] Speaker C: There was this can't be right.
Dick's true blue chest rub maybe, you know, instead of Vicks. Vicks, yeah, yeah.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Is this right?
[00:42:12] Speaker C: I think this is real Oz. Aussie honey.
Australian water cracker biscuits. Yeah, it was definitely like just a line of all the usual staples and stuff.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: How interesting for me, he reminded me because I used to watch the Leyland Brothers. My dad. Do you remember the Leyland Brothers at all? Jay might be a bit young.
[00:42:32] Speaker C: I know the name, but no, not the show.
[00:42:35] Speaker B: What was it? Was it Mel and Mike Le.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I used to love watching their stuff, you know. And then Dick Smith, they were like the, they were the Cashless Bogans. And Dick Smith was like the cashed up Bogan of the, the, you know, the, the documentary world. And there was another guy. Was it LB Mangles? But didn't, didn't something happen with lb? Was there was some controversy that he was dodgy or something?
[00:42:59] Speaker A: I don't know.
Remember, remember used to go like to the movies back then they always had an Alby Mangles like preview before the main feature and he was off on some boat somewhere with a, you know, beautiful person traveling around the Pacific or whatever he was doing. But he's still, he's still Going, I think last thing I read. Yeah, not doing that anymore.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: But, yeah, no, no, there was someone like that years ago and, and they, they staged some things that happened on their documentary and they got caught out and there's a bit of a. Bit of a controversy, but we've had some pretty strong characters in that space in Australia, you know. Really?
[00:43:36] Speaker C: Did you have any heroes or, like, people that you aspired to be, Peter? Whether it was in photography, writing, or even just, you know, kind of like life in Albie Mangles, you know, did you want to be.
Do you remember ever sort of thinking, that's what I want to work towards, to be another.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: I needed blonde, curly hair, wasn't I?
[00:43:59] Speaker B: That's what he was. Very blonde, wasn't he?
[00:44:00] Speaker A: It wasn't going to happen. It wasn't going to happen.
Kojak. Maybe I could have been, but I, I mean, obviously, you know, the era I grew up in, there's, there's, there's legends, there's like David Attenborough and people like that. Yeah, you're exposed to, but there was also Aussie legends that I, I just sort of, you know, you just saw people doing great things out there. Harry Butler, you know, the Leylands we're talking about. Yeah. Malcolm Douglas, who ran a crop farm up in Broome, but he also made lots of documentaries and would grab wildlife and do whatever. So. So interacting with wildlife was. Was definitely influenced by those people that were in the public media space.
And I'd record their stuff and then play it back on VHS tons of times, you know. Yeah.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: But I guess for a long time that was kind of how we found out about the natural world of Australia. I mean, we knew we had this massive landscape, we knew we had beautiful spaces for people to visit and explore, but it was shows like that that kind of woke us up to the true beauty of what Australia had to offer, you know, well, before any of the fancy, you know, throw another shrimp on the barbie advertising campaigns that Paul Hogan did, you know.
Yeah. I always find that fascinating. You know what. And great question from. From Jay about, you know, who your heroes are, you know, because sometimes we forget these people. Julie Powell's dropped a comment in the chat. Just very quickly. G', day, Julie. I hope you're recovering after your massive, massive weekend in Bright. It was great to see you and obviously great to meet your husband, Roy. Thank you for all your support.
Julie Powell says, I met Alby Mangles as a kid at a night screening of one of his films in Rosebud A Million Years ago. That's amazing.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: That's very cool. And Rodney says, yeah, it was back in the 80s.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, gosh, interesting. Feels like a million years ago, but hey,
[00:46:02] Speaker C: so when you were working with the museum, was that a freelance type arrangement you had with them or were you actually an employee or did it vary over the years?
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean like typical of government institutions, especially in the arts area. It's, it's sort of funding is periodic spasmodic.
I, I started and it was, it was a really bizarre thing. So when I, when I, as I said, I moved to Australia when I was just about turn 15, I was 14, it was 82 and in 83 it was work experience at school and, and you had to go and see your careers advisor and find out where you wanted to work and all that sort of stuff. And I had no idea. It was just like that. I remember sitting in the room with the careers advisor and I said, I just want to work with animals, possibly birds, you know, but.
And she's just looked at me and sort of said, well, you're not going to get the national parks, you're not going to get the zoo, you're not going to get this and that. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can get you. And two weeks later went back and saw her and she goes, well, you're going to be going to two different places. The first week is at the marine zoology department at the Sydney University and the second week is at the bird department of the Australian Museum. And it was like I had no idea what to expect. It was like, you know, you go to the museums, you're in the exhibition area, you're looking at stuffed birds or stuff, whatever. Or yeah, just Egyptian display, whatever.
[00:47:35] Speaker C: Yes, clean the bird displays and that's you work experience.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: But then I like marine zoology was great. I was working with PhD students collecting polychaete worms around Cornell in Sydney and taking them back and sexing them under a microscope and taking the eggs out with a pet and everything.
[00:47:55] Speaker B: How do you sex a worm? Can we, can we just dive into it?
[00:47:59] Speaker C: We can't, we can't, we can't do that on this show. That will be. No, I just waited on YouTube.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: I mean, to be fair, Peter, you can't just drop a bombshell like that. I need to know how do you sex a word? How do you tell a female from a male worm?
[00:48:09] Speaker A: It was, it was from my perspective, I probably couldn't back then because There was a PhD student, but if it had Eggs. It was a female. So that was, that was it. That was the limit of mine.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: Although we can't always assume these things.
True, they've got it mixed up. You know, I do it the other way.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: But then like I worked in the museum department, went through all the security, got my badge and everything like that felt pretty important as well. Was 16 years old, pretty cool. And then walked in through the collection area and then there's these huge rooms with cabinets full of dead things. And it's just I spent a week just opening, looking at things from all over the globe and it was just like I was in heaven. And then Walter Bowles, the, the guy who was the collection manager, he just sort of said, I'll come back as a volunteer if you want. And from there I did off and on while I was at uni and doing other things. And then, yeah, a bit of funding came along and got some contracts and yeah, 20, 20 years later, that was it.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
Just a quick sidebar. Justin, what did you do for work experience? Do people want to know? Actually, I want to know if I've asked you that before.
[00:49:24] Speaker C: I'm trying to remember. I did a few things, but the most, the one that stuck in my memory a lot, which actually it technically wasn't work experience because it was four weeks long over the summer holidays organized by a, like a separate program that was running in Bendigo called Trouble Teens. For troubled teens. No, it wasn't for troubled teens.
And I ended up at the Bendigo bank for four weeks.
And as there, it was a weird variety of being very cool because we were looking into chip cards were becoming a thing, so machines and stuff that were, you know, going to be used for that rollout and all this sort of stuff. But on the other hand, I learned that there's lots of coffee drinking, lots of printing of things and lots of meetings.
And it wasn't my jam.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: That's really interesting because I did my. I did two weeks of work experience. My first week was at an Anz bank in Nidri here in Melbourne. And all I was allowed to do, I wasn't allowed to touch paper notes or checks, but I was allowed to count change even though they had a change counting machine that was. They obviously had no idea how to deal with the work experience kid.
But the second week was at. It was like at the Australian.
It was like a government organization where all the park rangers would come in and that all the admin stuff was done in town on Spring Street. But I remember it was boring as, like I was basically just doing data entry. But I remember one day these. Actually, on two occasions, these park rangers came in, and one day they brought in a completely harmless snake.
But it was big, and of course they brought it. Well, they had it in anyway. They had it, like, in their car. So they brought it inside, and we went into, like, this disused office with, like, an old kind of timber and metal desk, and they put the snake on that, and they called me in to, you know, just come and see it and ask questions. And I thought that was pretty cool.
But while we were talking, the snap had. The snake had actually gotten itself inside the desk structure.
So, you know, snakes can get into some pretty cramped spaces. So it was coiled around a whole bunch of different stuff. We couldn't get it out. And so they ended up having to
[00:51:38] Speaker A: pull this desk apart.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: So these two park ranger dudes who thought that was super cool, showing this work experience guy, you know, the snake that they'd found in someone's home or something, spent the rest of the day just dismantling a desk just to get into this snake. It was crazy. I remember that more than anything else. So, you know. All right, work experience clearly works.
[00:51:58] Speaker C: And you decided not to follow that dream?
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Well, no, I was only there because they. It was like their. Their accounts department because my parents were very set on me being an accountant. Like my brother, who's the golden child, apparently.
No resentment at all.
[00:52:12] Speaker C: He doesn't have a podcast.
[00:52:13] Speaker B: He doesn't have a podcast?
[00:52:14] Speaker A: No.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: And he takes photos. I'm just going to say it. Sorry, Andrew, but, you know, you need to lift your game.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: But.
[00:52:21] Speaker B: But, yeah, you know, I wanted to. I wanted to be an artist, but that came a bit later.
But, yeah, work experience, crazy time.
[00:52:30] Speaker C: So that's actually a good point. Did, Peter, did you think of yourself as an artist at any point in these years, or were you more. You were a naturalist at some point? Did you. Do you.
Do you at all identify as being an artist, or is it still very much naturalist?
[00:52:49] Speaker A: I think we're. We're all creatives to a degree, aren't we?
Whether it's, you know, got the tag of artist or whether it's got the tag of a writer or whatever. I think we're creative people. And yes, I did art at school, and I went down that path of, you know, I wasn't into painting or anything like that, but I was. I love drawing, but, you know, I. I didn't pursue that. I mean, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed learning the. The skills.
But my early photography I suppose. Well, not my real early stuff, but like in, when I was doing the darkroom course and learning about cameras and what they could do. Yeah, definitely. I was, I was trying to be more creative and artistic with the things I was doing. And then I went down that phase of being just documenting what I was seeing, you know, taking the best picture I could. Because one of, one of the first pictures I ever got published was actually of mites in the armpits of geckos, giant geckos in New Caledonia. And it was like, Peter, that's very specific.
[00:54:01] Speaker B: In the first place.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: Well, it was so cool. It was again, through the museum, went over to New Zealand, New Cut, New Caledonia, to, to collect these, these things. And we ended up, I was like, I did French at school, so I thought I was a good translator for him, for the boss. And it was like I ended up being woeful, to be honest,
[00:54:22] Speaker B: in the country.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: It was good.
[00:54:24] Speaker C: Not too late then.
[00:54:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's one of those classic things, like you, you, you sort of prepare yourself for what you're going to have to try and communicate to the people like over there. But the very first hurdle was trying to bring all of our scientific collecting equipment through customs in New Caledonia. And of course, the guys just standing there in French, just sort of asking me, what am I doing? What's all this stuff for?
And I'm trying to explain it again in French, like, work for the Australian Museum. You know, there's collecting material, there's a liquid nitrogen cylinder, all that sort of stuff.
And eventually, after probably about half an hour, he just said in English, okay, you can go through.
How'd you work for it?
But then, yeah, it was so good. The trip was so cool. That's very cool.
That's very cool.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: Where else did that work take you? You know, and we're talking about places that, you know, are very different to how they, how you see them today.
You know, before, over tourism of many places. And where were some of the top destinations that you went during that period? Working for the museum. And why were they highlights for you?
[00:55:41] Speaker A: I, I, I mean, there's places I didn't go that I wanted to go, exotic places. I was working with Tim at the museum.
He was collecting a whole heap of mammal specimens. But as bycatch in his mist nets, he'd get New guinea bird species. And one of my early jobs in the early 90s was to classify all of these birds that he'd collected.
And I ended up writing about four scientific papers on that, which was the first time I ever got anything published from a writing perspective.
And he sort of said, we should go to New guinea together. And I'm thinking, that's got to be pretty cool. I want to go. But then civil unrest broke out and it didn't happen. So I still haven't been. So it's like your Japan thing. Please put a dollar in the donation bin for me, and one day I'll
[00:56:30] Speaker B: get anyone listening along. Just started. Go fund me.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: You know, crowdfunding.
[00:56:35] Speaker A: But. But most of it was Australia. Most of the places I got to go was surveying around Australia and going to mining sites and waste plants and, you know, they sound very unromantic, but you got access to places that, you know, you wouldn't have got access to before and also access to methodologies like collecting things.
So you got. Not just being able to see wildlife in. In nature, but you got to handle it and got to, you know.
Yeah, we won't talk about the. The. The. The collecting part, which a lot of them ended up in museum collections, but, yeah, we did release quite a lot for those people who are horrified at the moment. But. But, yeah, but it exposed you to things that you wouldn't ordinarily see. Like you go to a pit trap in the morning, which is a bucket in the ground with a. A long, small fence line between all these buckets. And things come hit the fence line, go left, right, fall in a bucket, and then you come along in the morning and extract what's in the bucket. And amazing. Like, little mammals, you know, snakes, whatever. Like, they all end up in buckets. And. Yeah, I would never have seen those before. And. And it was like it opened up this hidden world of wonders.
Yep.
[00:57:54] Speaker B: And I think that's. That's a really interesting point about, you know, the places that you wanted to go to, but you didn't overseas. But realistically, there is so much to see here in Australia. We are such a massive country with a huge amount of diversity of wildlife, plant life, the whole works. You know, you could eat very well just traveling around Australia to do that sort of gig, couldn't you?
[00:58:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: As we've seen people do.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And dozens of times. I mean, you can just. It's so vast, you just cannot possibly see it all in one go. It's just impossible. It's.
[00:58:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:58:25] Speaker A: Several lifetimes.
[00:58:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: Which is amazing. You know, we're very fortunate.
We have that. That level of natural world available to us. And I like what you said earlier about the, you know, during COVID the bird. The backyard bird photography. I remember writing an article for a New Zealand publication a few years ago, and it was about this project that they were starting, or maybe it was just the annual event. And it was about documenting how many birds you saw in your backyard and what types. And they had this whole national program about it. And I thought that was really amazing that, you know, they were encouraging kids to get involved, you know, like that backyard science kind of stuff.
And that itself is, you know, if you are mobility impaired or, you know, travel's not your thing, sometimes just exploring your local, your local neighborhood can reveal so much about the natural world around you, even for a city kid like me.
[00:59:13] Speaker A: And you can sit on your balcony and. And I mean, for all the bad things of COVID that was probably one of the positive things is we've got. Yeah, like the Aussie bio blitz. We've got all these sort of things that have encouraged people to get interested. But when, when lockdowns were on, what else could we do apart from sitting our balcony and wish we were at the beach or whatever, but you start to notice what's happening on There's a Rosella or there's a. Yeah, well, I
[00:59:36] Speaker B: know, I know for a fact that during that time, during those years of lockdown, of course here in Victoria, we had the worst, the longest amount of lockdowns anywhere else in the world. But speaking to a friend who works for a camera brand, a lens brand, you know, they sold more macro lenses than they ever had before because it was something that people could do in their own home, their own backyard, you know, on their. Within their 5k radius when they're allowed to go out when the curfew is not on. You know, people were taking up macro photography just for something different. I thought, that's wonderful.
[01:00:05] Speaker A: And even those 5Ks, I think we undervalue the importance of natural spaces. And when we don't have access to things is when we start to miss them. We, we sort of take it for granted that we can go somewhere whenever we want. But when we're not allowed to go, it's like, ah. But when we have the opportunities, yeah, we're going for a walk in the woods or we're going to the beach or we're going somewhere that we can interact with nature. Because it's something. Yeah, it's. It's in us. We need it for healing, mental health, all the, all the good stuff, you know, physical fitness, everything. We just need to be in nature. It's just.
[01:00:41] Speaker B: It actually reminds me of a past Guest Emily Black, who we've had on the show, she, during COVID lockdown, she had teenagers, school aged teenagers in the house and she needed some for herself. And she started walking within that five kilometers, like into bushland. And. And then she started jogging and then she started running. And before you knew it, she was addicted to running. And she now does endurance race, actually, when we're in Bright on the weekend, she was running workshops and partying like the rest of us. But then one morning she said I had nothing to do. So I went and ran a half marathon up the road, you know, as you do.
But it's interesting how that Covid, for all it did and the damage it caused, that there were these little sparks of inspiration that came out of it and a lot of them were creative.
You know, we've interviewed a number of, obviously a number of people on this podcast, but people produce some of their best work during that period because they had the time and the patience to do so, you know, to explore their close world, whatever that may be.
[01:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:38] Speaker B: I'm very curious to talk to you about your books that you've, that you've authored and published. So there's, you contributed to, according to your buyer, 14 books that have been published. I think you've got three of them at the moment on the website. Tell me about getting into the book game. What was that like for you and what does it mean to you to have your work appear on shelves?
[01:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. Well, the, the, I mentioned before I did the, the scientific papers on birds of New guinea and that and that.
Then again, and I sort of want to say that I am so grateful for the time I had at the Australian Museum. I'm so grateful to my careers advisor for organizing that because, you know, we think about where we are and what we've done, but we sort of forget where it all came from and the people that did it all before us, you know, yeah, it's, it's where we're part of a process.
But through the museum, they had a big ten volume set of birds of Australia that they were doing. And I think they were up to the ninth volume and the person was running a bit behind for deadline purposes and they just sort of said, look, can you jump in and write like half a dozen sections on things?
And so I did that. And then of course that led to the next one which was, ah, you know, you did great job, whatever.
Can you write a bit more for the 10th volume?
And that happened. And then after that the museum said, can you write a Bird book for us. Like a little pocket field guide. Bird guide for us. And it's like, yeah, yeah, that'd be great. So I did that and then that then became this. Ah, wow. I've written a book, you know, on my own. I've written something that appears in the Canberra Times Book of the Week or appears in a National Parks office or in the Angus and Robinson or whatever. And it's like you look at it and go, wow, that's, that's a big moment. You know, you feel so much pride, so much sense of achievement that you've created something. And. Yeah, and then the same publisher approached me directly and said, look, you know, can you help with the Green Guide series? Which was again, a small introductory series that we're doing a stack of different titles, those birds, reptile, mammals, anything and everything.
Yeah. And that was. That series went on to win the Whitley Award at the time, which is like the New South Wales Zoological Society Awards for natural history publications.
Yeah. And then again, that was an amazing moment.
And then, yeah, it just sort of progressed from there. There was.
CSIRO approached me to write a book on bowbirds. I did back then, Reader's Digest, sort of, you know, we're doing an encyclopedia of Australian wildlife. Can you do a heap of sections on that?
And so, yeah, so it all sort of snowballed from there. But the funny thing was, like, I had a bit of a hiatus with family and other things going on that I didn't really do any books until about 2016. I.
I wanted to write a book on Australia's bird watching mega spots.
And because I traveled a lot around Australia, I had a lot of information, bird lists and been to a lot of sites and a lot of photography.
And so one thing I realized when I was compiling it was I didn't. I hadn't been on boat trips out to the pelagic area, so out to the continental shelf to see seabirds and photograph seabirds.
And I decided, well, there's a place just down the road at Kiama which is, you know, not far from where I was living, that ran monthly trips out there.
And I jumped on a boat, went out and I happened to be sitting next to a guy called Ding Long, Ding Yong Lee, who was studying at the University of Canberra.
And he was on the boat and we're just got chatting as you do, and I was talking, he said, oh, what are you out on the boat for? And I said, oh, actually, you know, I'm writing a book and I want to do this. And he said, oh, that's a coincidence. I've just finished publishing and I've just finished writing and about to have published a book on the 100 Best Bird Watching sites of Southeast Asia.
And it was like, oh, wow. And he goes, I can introduce you to my publisher if you want. And it's like, that would be great.
Anyway, so introductions done. He introduced me to John Beaufoy over at Oxford, uk and as it turned out, John was the managing director of New Holland Publishing in Australia in the 90s. When I did my first two books with New Holland Publishing, two Little Bird books I was telling you about. And I'd never met him and I didn't realize until my agent said, oh, you know, this is John, this is, this is who like ran New Holland publishing in the 90s. It's like, wow, that's full circle moment. And, and yeah, and then it obviously snowballed from there with lots of titles with him. And yeah, I mean it's great to see your books in bookshelves. It's great to see like what you've achieved being showcased. But yeah, I think it's more for the, when I do expos and markets that we're talking about before you get young people coming up saying, ah, I've got three or four year books and so glad to meet you and thank you for what you're doing and all that. And that's, that's the reward.
[01:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. When you see people interested in what you're interested in what you've worked your life to produce. Two quick things or one quick thing and a long thing. A. I love that you just casually throw out that you have an agent. I think that's, that's, that's, that's baller move as far as I'm concerned.
But you know, looking at, looking at the photography world today and the publishing world, you know, in parallel, do you think that there's still opportunity for people to create their own books that cover these similar topics that, you know, sell 100?
Yep. What would be your, what would be your best advice to people? And what's the, what's the one error that you see people make time and again when it comes to creating a book? And this is for self interest because I'm about to start a book project. I've decided Justin's going to fund it. He doesn't know that yet, but you know, we'll get to that conversation.
Yeah, let us know. What do you think about that?
[01:08:12] Speaker A: I'm lucky. I do lots of talks and so I've Come across this sort of situation where people have come up afterwards saying, oh, you've inspired me to continue with a book project. I've done been working on it for five, 10 years, whatever.
And I think that's the thing. People, first of all, they sort of think they can achieve more in the short term and underestimate what they can achieve in the long term.
And so when we sit down to do a book writing project, it's like, I want to put this in, I want to put that in and I want, I don't know, 10,000 images in it. Or I want, you know, that species has to be in it or that train has to be in it or whatever, you know, otherwise it's not a complete book without it. I think that's the first problem is people bite off and try and make it bigger than Ben Hur.
[01:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:09:04] Speaker A: I think going in with what you're passionate about is always the best recipe. It's like, I love coffee cups, whatever.
[01:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:09:17] Speaker A: No one else is going to read a book on that.
[01:09:19] Speaker B: Justin Wood.
[01:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, you'd be surprised. You know,
[01:09:24] Speaker B: he's got his coffee cup.
[01:09:26] Speaker C: These yeti ones, they seal up. Look. So look at this, look. You turn this.
[01:09:30] Speaker B: All right, all right. They're not a sponsor.
[01:09:34] Speaker C: Lock the lid and then you can just tip it upside down.
[01:09:39] Speaker A: Much better.
[01:09:39] Speaker B: What, what will they come up with next?
[01:09:41] Speaker C: These are the best.
[01:09:43] Speaker A: But, yeah, I mean, it's like if you've got a passion, I think just sit down and write, you know, and, and it's like, you don't have to write the whole book in one go. It's sit down, write 10 minutes, sit down and write the first few words on a, on a piece of paper or on your word process, whichever way you're doing it. But it's that, that people find difficult. It's that I, I need to write a book. Oh, my goodness. It's like, how am I going to do 300 pages? Well, you know, it's, it's the first paragraph that gets you going. And then if you dedicate 10 minutes, next thing, you're sitting there for 90 minutes. Well, you get to 90 minutes, have a break, come back later on, turn it off, go the next day. Or, you know, I, I delivered a talk at the, the Writers Festival up in, in Brisbane recently and, and it's like, I did a lot of research because I, you know, you know what you do, but you don't know what the bigger industry does really, at the end of the day.
And I was reading books by like, William Zinser and like legends in the industry of writing non fiction and, and it's like simple things like just get up in the morning while you're having your coffee, put some notes on a post it note, whatever, and then put it in the drawer and then that's it for that day. Then the next day get up and put some notes on a poster, put it in the drawer next day and do that for a month. Then you get all your post it notes out and put it like, you know, on the floor and sit down and look at what you've, you've written. And they don't all have to be connected, they're just streams of consciousness and then all of a sudden you start to see a bit of a pattern forming and then next thing it's, well, that's the direction the book's going to go in or that's the most important thing that needs to go in the book or whatever. So yeah, so I think it's, it's a case of not biting off too big a thing.
Be, be confident that someone's going to be. If you're interested in something, someone else is going to be interested in something, you know, or that thing. And it's like you're going to have an audience even if it's 2, 3, 4, 5. And then from there it just goes. So yeah, keep it small, keep it simple, do what you're passionate about and don't force it.
[01:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
And was writing something you found comfortable with, you felt comfortable with during your schooling years or was it something that came to you later?
Like you. I'm also a double threat. I, I write and take photos. Justin just takes photos.
Just make that clear to everyone, you know.
Sorry, Jack. It's the carryover from the weekend. It was just relentless. The, the ribbing was really.
[01:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it was terrible.
[01:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it was terrible.
[01:12:22] Speaker A: Justin, I'm available to talk later on if you want, so.
[01:12:24] Speaker C: Yeah, okay, that'd be nice. I might need a debrief.
[01:12:28] Speaker B: Might need an ally.
Where were we? The writing? Was it, was it something that you found easy in school?
[01:12:36] Speaker A: I did and I didn't. I think, you know, like I was always a great reader. I loved from like, as a kid I was reading constantly. It was just like getting dressed to go to school and mum yelling at me and I was nosing a book and trying to put one sock on them.
I was lucky that mum again. Another thing I'm really grateful for is I was taught to read very young. By the time I'd started school at four and a half, I was always already reading, you know, way ahead of that.
And being exposed to that obviously helps with writing.
I would always. A bit. What I was chatting about before the procrastinator in me is like, how can I make this the best thing possible?
And, and that's not the way to write. It's, it's, it's about writing from like inside you. What, what is it you want to put on the paper? Not what you want someone else to read. It's what you want to write about.
And so, yeah, so it did sort of come naturally as far as my creative flair and the, the research and the condensing of things and being able to write.
But yeah, I wasn't the best writer as far as getting, getting what I wanted on paper because I was always thinking about what people were going to be wanting to read.
[01:13:49] Speaker C: Yep.
[01:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I didn't return to writing until probably my 40s.
Yeah, probably about.
Actually it was when I was in my 40s. It was 2013, I think, when I started writing. And I think maybe people need some life experience, but also some experience with how language is used not just by us, but by others, before we can confidently sit down and put pen to paper, so to speak.
Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting.
[01:14:19] Speaker A: And I think also, like, it's not just life experience, but I think it's being exposed to.
We talked about idols before, but being what you like to read is what you're going to write.
But the more you sort of research, or not necessarily research, the more you're exposed to that, the more confident you're going to be to be able to write something similar. And that's just, I think, yeah, it's life experience, but it's also exposure to different genres, but the genre you're interested in.
[01:14:55] Speaker B: Well said.
You had a question, Joe, comment?
[01:14:58] Speaker C: Well, I really liked what you said before and I knew I just had to double check who the quote was attributed to. You sort of mentioned it, but I think it was a Bill Gates quote that most people overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can do in 10 years.
And I think that's, that's a really good.
Whenever I hear that, it definitely rings true for me because I think we all think, you know, yeah, I could, I could finish a book in a year and maybe we can't, if it's our first book, realistically, you know, to get it published by the time you Write it and finish it and get it published. Year might be very unlikely, but then none of us would think, oh, maybe within 10 years I could be a successful best selling authority.
You know, like we don't, we don't dare dream to dream that big on a 10 year horizon. But we also put ourselves in a, basically put on a course for failure to try and get a book out in a year when it's really maybe not realistic for a first time author. And same with photography or anything like that. I just think it was. Yeah, you kind of paraphrased it before. I think it's a great quote, a great way of thinking to maybe aim a little higher but with a longer time horizon.
[01:16:14] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, well said, Justin. Yeah, for sure.
[01:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
I'm keen to talk to you about, you know, where you were at with your gear, but I think first I want to roll back a little, you know, whenever we speak to someone who started off in film photography and made that inevitable transition through the, you know, through the growth of film photography where cameras now started getting autofocus and built in light meters and you know, power drives and all these sorts of things started happening and then digital came along. What was the transition to digital like for you? Did you leap in head first, keen to try a new format or did you, did you wait a bit?
[01:16:50] Speaker C: Dragged screaming, last person to shift. Which one?
[01:16:56] Speaker A: I'm definitely not an early adopter, but hey, the techs there, I'm going to give it a go. I, I kept my T90s for years, obviously, but I grabbed a Kodak EasyShare, like, you know, the little two megapixel, like terrible cameras, like. But it was my first transition to digital. But it was also, I think, you know, eye opening to be able to think that you can just take a picture of something, see a picture on the back and it was like, this is just going to be a game changer even though the quality was not there at the time. And then. Yeah, and that's when I moved from Canon to Nikon because it became that. Oh, sorry, is it Nikon? Nikon. Nikon.
[01:17:40] Speaker B: Nikon's good.
[01:17:41] Speaker C: No, I know we settled it that it is definitely Nikon. Yeah, the Americans call it Nikon, but yeah, but who settled that for us that in Japan it's Nikon, which makes sense.
[01:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:17:57] Speaker A: Anyway, but yeah, so I moved because I didn't like the, the Canon, like the feel of the cameras in the, the digital setup moved on and yeah, and, and yeah, and then I, yeah, D70, D300 750s D5 and then, yeah, Z9 there. But it's like. Yeah, it became that progression of. Not necessarily as soon as it was available in the store, but not long after, you know.
[01:18:30] Speaker B: Yep, yep. Yeah. Because I like asking that question because we've had a range of responses from guests. You know, some dive straight in, couldn't wait.
And folks like Jason Lau, one of our past guests and good friend of the show. He dived in early because he was also an educator and a, you know, fashion photographer. But he ended up going back to his film stuff until the, the digital tech caught up with where film was at because it felt like too big a sacrifice of quality just for the sake of using tech, new technology, you know, it wasn't on par with where film cameras were, you know, at their peak.
[01:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:19:06] Speaker B: And yeah, I mean, like you, I, you know, I like to strive for new technology. Justin's been doing quite a bit of film photography recently. I, I dappled a little bit a couple years ago and I just, I just couldn't get my head in the game, you know, I just couldn't, couldn't create the exposures that I wanted.
[01:19:21] Speaker C: I've got a box of 120 sitting at the post office that I need to go and get Greg for.
Where is it? Hang on, I have to show.
[01:19:29] Speaker B: Did you buy that camera?
[01:19:31] Speaker C: No.
[01:19:34] Speaker B: You stole it?
[01:19:36] Speaker A: I stole it.
[01:19:39] Speaker C: I stole it off Nick Fletcher.
He graciously lent me this giant.
[01:19:46] Speaker A: Nice.
Yeah.
[01:19:49] Speaker C: Six by nine, medium format, say Fujifilm GW692. So. And I don't have any 120 film, so I'd order a little box of it. It'll be fun.
[01:19:59] Speaker B: Did you shoot any over the weekend? Did Lucinda give you any?
[01:20:02] Speaker C: No, we didn't have time to do that.
Did you have you.
You wouldn't have really looked into medium format, I guess much because it's probably not ideal for anything that you did, was it, or am I wrong there?
[01:20:15] Speaker A: I never did it.
I mean like, I used to use, like photographers used to give me medium format stuff that they'd taken pictures of wildlife.
[01:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:20:24] Speaker A: There were some legends and the quality was amazing. Yeah. But I never did it.
[01:20:29] Speaker C: It was, yeah. Never something that you thought there was a, a need for in your work?
[01:20:35] Speaker A: No, no, I. And again, I was probably, you know, probably not from a camera perspective, but I wasn't doing it professionally enough to, to warrant trying to experiment with different things. It was, it was.
When I was out, I was trying to get pictures of things I needed for books or whatever was going on in life that, you know, it was more about capturing the image rather than experimenting with different. Different tech. So. Yeah, yeah.
[01:21:07] Speaker C: And obviously the quality can be great from 35mil anyway, so it's not.
[01:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[01:21:14] Speaker C: It's not like you're looking at your books going, oh, I wish this was shot in medium format or something. Yeah, exactly.
[01:21:20] Speaker A: And, and like. And I'll be brutally honest, like, I don't take the pictures, all the pictures that go in the books, you know, I just. It's a physical impossibility. So you're, you're.
[01:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:21:29] Speaker A: Sourcing images from a range of people and to be honest, like, you know, phones these days can take a cracking image if you know the subject's right, the lights right and everything's going in favor. And so sometimes one of those pictures will come in a book.
But when I was doing the Bowerbird book, there was a photographer called Michael Seyfort who was shooting in medium format and his bower bird shots at the bower were just stunning, absolutely stunning. The quality was amazing. So, yeah, that was when I was sort of first exposed to it, but didn't get a desire to try it myself.
Yeah.
[01:22:07] Speaker C: Not enough to make you go and spend a fortune on medium format gear.
[01:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[01:22:14] Speaker C: Before I ask you about your
[01:22:18] Speaker A: current gear, just.
[01:22:20] Speaker C: I was clicking on the website before. So on Peter's website, which will be linked below, but you can also just search Peter Roland, wildlife photographer.
I was on the book section and there's actually a heap of books that you can purchase straight off the website, I think. How many do I count? Maybe almost 10, maybe not quite.
[01:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah, probably about 11. Yeah, yeah.
[01:22:43] Speaker C: 1, 2, 3, 4. Anyway, there's a ton that you can just see. Just.
[01:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:22:47] Speaker C: Buy now and then you can go there and check out.
[01:22:49] Speaker B: Right.
[01:22:49] Speaker C: On the website.
And I assume that's probably. Is that for people in Australia only that can buy off your site?
[01:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And you know, we've got. The publisher is based in the UK. There's books available over in the UK, over in the US, but they also get sold on Amazon etc. Etc. So. So they can.
To buy a book signed by myself or, you know, something for local. Then Australia is. It's just too. Too expensive to post overseas.
[01:23:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I thought so.
[01:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:23:23] Speaker C: But yeah, so go on there and check it out. It's under the writing, writing menu and then you'll see books and they're all there.
So go and check those out, we'll talk about a few more. Maybe later in the episode. But you said Z9.
[01:23:36] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
[01:23:38] Speaker C: Now I want to ask you, Kurt. So I had.
I went from Canon to Nikon, then back to Canon again because they're far superior.
And then. No, I'm just kidding. But. So I had a D5.
I had a D5 and I loved that camera.
It was. I don't know what. There was something about the files that I just. I loved the look of them. I loved the way it felt and the way it worked.
How did you find. Did you go straight from the D5 to the Z9? And how did you find that transition?
[01:24:07] Speaker A: Tough?
[01:24:08] Speaker C: Oh, tell me why.
[01:24:10] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it's just a completely different beast, isn't it? Like, you're looking through the viewfinder and you're seeing a. Like a digital thing going on. You're not seeing life, you're seeing a representation of what you're photographing. And, and it was, it took a bit of getting used to, I'll be honest. It was.
Yeah, it was just playing tricks with the brain, really, at the end of the day. But the pros far outweighed the cons for, for myself.
And, and I'm not just talking z9, but the mirrorless transition, it's just no shutter noise, you know, that's. That's just enormous when you're doing wildlife photography. It's. You're taking a picture of something in a natural setting, behaving naturally and not trying to fly away or blinking when it is a flash, a shutter or whatever, you know, it's like you, you. You're trying to be as natural as possible and that's benefiting in the subject you're catching.
So. But yeah, I mean, there was, there's, you know, eye tracking also. I mean, it's just. Yeah, just everything.
Everything you want. Like as a wildlife photographer, it's everything you want wrapped up in a little black.
[01:25:21] Speaker C: Well, yeah, you say everything you want, but the Z9 2 is long rumored. Who knows when that's going to come out? Because the Z9's been out, I think, for, gosh, five years.
[01:25:35] Speaker A: Nikon 22.
[01:25:36] Speaker C: Z9, was it 22?
[01:25:38] Speaker A: I came out in just November. 22? Well, it was rumored early, but I think 20.
[01:25:43] Speaker C: 21.
[01:25:44] Speaker A: 21. Yeah, but I don't think until 22.
[01:25:49] Speaker C: Maybe not, but they did. So they did a development announcement March 21. You know how it was, like, long way ahead. They were like, hey, we're doing this.
And then. Yeah, announcement. The official announcement date was October 28, 2021. Who knows when stock came through to Australia after that, I can't remember how long that that was.
[01:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:26:09] Speaker C: Anyway, so it's definitely due, but it also isn't lagging far behind anything really in terms of like, it's not like you're looking at that now and going, oh, I can't take great photos like Sony people can or whatever.
But is there anything that you would like to see in the Z9 too?
[01:26:32] Speaker A: Probably not really. I mean, like, I'm not that level. I'm not that low. Yeah. I mean, I'm always happy, that's the thing. But.
But now I'm not that level. I mean, I. You know, people that are shooting action constantly like that are out there in, I don't know, like the wilds of wherever, taking pictures of birds fishing or polar bears attacking, whatever, you know, wherever you are, you're doing what obviously you can do with equipment that you've got. So I'm guessing that people are in that space of trying to capture faster, sharper, whatever, want more stuff. But. But for me, no, I'm. I'm happy as Larry.
[01:27:15] Speaker C: Ah, well, Nikon, you heard it here. Don't bother doing the Z9 too.
[01:27:19] Speaker A: Just keep it.
[01:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah, just park it for a bit.
[01:27:22] Speaker C: Yeah, the two label on there and don't worry about it.
No, I think it is. It is just proof that it's like they're so good now that they're. I mean. And like you say there might be people right on the edges of some of the performances that are looking for things, but for most of us it's like, it's really right there.
[01:27:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:27:42] Speaker C: I found the limits of my skill level in.
In South Africa at Kruger National Park, Matt Crummons pulled out our little tour thing. What do you call it? Tour bus. No, it wasn't a bus vehicle. Up next to. Basically there was water, a little kind of dam in the river that the road went across. But instead of being a bridge over the road, it brought the. We were sort of sunken below a little bit, so the water level was almost. Was just below our head height, but we were down below a little bit and there was kingfishers hovering and then diving to fish. And I was trying to shoot close up slow mo video of that. And that is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do with a camera. The speed that they move, Greg, when they're hovering around like this all over the place and then out of nowhere they'll just go straight down to the water. And trying to follow them down was extremely Difficult. I don't know how people did this stuff.
[01:28:46] Speaker B: And you've got allegedly the world's best camera. Imagine. Imagine doing that back in the day with a film camera.
[01:28:51] Speaker A: I've got a little story, actually. I've ever. Like, you're talking about birds and flight and like, when I had my old T90, it was a real battle to try and get pictures of things in flight, you know, with old slide film and metering and everything. But my dad, who was quite creative, built me a shotgun mount for my camera.
So it was the. It was the. The handle of a shotgun, basically, that it sort of looked like. With the. Like the camera screw on the front to screw it to the bottom of the camera. And then the cable release was the trigger, so drill the hole through. And I went to Kernel national park, like the national park at Cornell and Sydney, to take pictures of swallows to see how it worked. Oh, the rangers sort of came and someone. Someone.
[01:29:35] Speaker B: I had some questions.
[01:29:38] Speaker C: Oh, no.
[01:29:39] Speaker A: How did that go?
[01:29:40] Speaker C: Did they. Did they understand?
[01:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all good.
[01:29:44] Speaker C: But, yeah, they didn't call the police.
[01:29:46] Speaker A: Put it back, I think.
[01:29:48] Speaker C: I think if you did that now, they would. I think. I feel like they would call the cops.
[01:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:29:54] Speaker C: You know, like, people didn't know what it was. Yeah. If there. But if there was a sighting now. Yeah. Where people didn't realize what. What it was and it looked like a gun. I think you'd be in a lot of trouble very quickly.
[01:30:04] Speaker A: It would be.
[01:30:05] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, well, years ago.
I think it was either during the first or the Second World War. Leica used to make.
[01:30:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:30:12] Speaker B: Some pistol and rifle grips for cameras.
[01:30:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:30:16] Speaker B: Predominantly for, you know, people that were photographing, like war photographers, but more so for people that were gathering intel, you know, they had these kind of these. It just allowed them to shoot in. In, you know, more comfortably with lower shutter speeds, higher ISO film. But yeah, I remember seeing photos of them in the past and. Because, like, I used to make rifle scopes for the military back in the day and.
Yeah. Yeah, some crazy, crazy camera mounts out there, that's for sure.
[01:30:47] Speaker A: Yep.
Yeah.
[01:30:48] Speaker B: You know, when it comes.
[01:30:49] Speaker C: I remember seeing one. Sorry, Sorry, Greg. I was. I remember. I can't find it now. It's gone. There was one on Marketplace not that long ago, and I almost bought it. I was like, oh, that'll look nice on the wall.
[01:31:02] Speaker B: Every now and then, one comes up in that Chinese auction for rare likers. Remember that one we talked about on the.
[01:31:07] Speaker C: On that thing, though? Oh, no, no one like everything's $20,000.
[01:31:11] Speaker B: I know because they're like one of ones like crazy. But I remember seeing one come up on there years ago.
Anyway, Peter, talk to us about lens. What is your go to travel kit when you're heading out into the field and you've got some ideas that you want to, you want to put in, you know, put in print, so to speak?
[01:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah, pretty simple. So I mean macro is a lot of what I do. So there's the, there's the, I got the 2D750 bodies and like the 55, the 105 and the 200 micro lenses or macro lenses with the twin flash front mount. So yeah, so I mean that's, that's my close up stuff.
But I've actually, I've downsized quite a lot. I mean I've got a range of smaller lenses and some wide angle stuff that I tend not to take with me a lot. But they're always there if I want to.
But I'm traveling very light these days. I'm traveling with the Z9 and the Zed Mount 180 to 600.
I got rid of the primes. I got rid of the, I mean I used to shoot with the, the 402.8 FL prime that was just super sharp, suitably beautiful.
But when I went to Canada in, in 25, 20, 24.
What year are we in now? 26 a couple years ago.
And I, I was just sick of lugging this big 400 mil lens through, you know, airplane carry ons and all sorts of stuff and, and yeah, I just wanted something a bit more compact and versatile when I was traveling. So I picked up the, the 180 to 600 for. It was about 2800 back then and it was like it was sharp enough. It's just, you know, lights always going to be the issue. You know, low light, you know, it's just always going to be a problem which you just can't beat that big glass with the 2.8 for, for shooting in low light. But you adapt, you know, you shoot
[01:33:25] Speaker B: what you can shoot and you are shooting with a Z9 that you know, gobbles up like. Yeah, like a hungry beast itself anyway. So.
[01:33:32] Speaker A: Exactly.
[01:33:32] Speaker B: Yeah, the camera kind of compensates for that a bit.
[01:33:35] Speaker A: And post prod, you know, you're doing you know, noise reductions and bits and pieces and you still get a nice, nice sharp image at the end of the day.
[01:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
And if you, if you were to give advice say to someone who was looking at getting into you know, naturalist photography, wildlife, bird life, macro with insects, whatever it may be.
What would be your advice on a great sort of, you know, entry level lens for people that will cover a range of different things that they can explore? What do you think is a good focal range?
[01:34:08] Speaker A: Like as far as, Sorry, I'm, you know, I'm not really a camera guru, but focal range, as in like, oh,
[01:34:15] Speaker B: like, you know, you said you've got
[01:34:16] Speaker A: the 185 and go up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:34:18] Speaker B: What would be a great sort of beginner lens for someone who, who wanted to get into this sort of photography but didn't want to over invest in or couldn't overinvest in gear yet.
[01:34:26] Speaker A: Oh yeah, Goodness. I mean you want to buy big glass and pay 15 grand, good luck.
But I mean the only reason I bought the 400 back then was like the US dollar tanked. It was parody with the Aussie dollar pretty much. So it was like I got it for 10 instead of 15. So.
But, but yeah, I mean like if you're doing wildlife, you need to reach and, and somewhere around 500 or 600 is, is basically minimum that you want. Yeah. But if you want. The versatility of it always comes with limitations. Like you get a big animal you're trying to take a picture of, well, you know, you want something around the 200 mark. So that's why I found the 180 to 600 gave me that versatility of being able to, you know, shoot something small that's a little bit further away or shoot something big that's a bit closer. And yeah, to be honest, I was taking pictures of deer and, and chipmunks and birds and all sorts of bits and pieces there and it did everything. So yeah, if you've got a budget, you know, that's, that's, that's not going to allow you to go up to the big stuff. Then yeah, stick with a two to three grand 180, 600 or 200 of 500, whatever the focal range is. But yeah, yeah, that's what you want to going out shooting whales or going out shooting.
[01:35:43] Speaker B: What about that rage?
[01:35:44] Speaker A: You just need that wrench. Yeah. At the end of the day I,
[01:35:48] Speaker C: I was very, very thankful to have the 100 to 500, even though I definitely hit 500 a lot and would have liked to be able to go to 600 for sure.
But there were times when we kick quickly, come across an animal in Africa and 100 was needed and that's when everyone else needed to switch to their other body that with A, you know, with a normal lens on it, they might have had 24 to 105 or something or a 7200 on the other body. Whereas I was able to just pull back in. It was, it was. But you know, you sort of gain it on one end and lose it on the other end and it's never perfect. It's just finding that thing that's the balance for what, what you do.
But I think.
[01:36:34] Speaker A: And you can go, you can get drop in, adapt like the multipliers, the 1.4s and everything like that. But yeah, yeah, you know there's so many options there, but you just. Yeah, yeah, you got to go within your budget and, and yeah, and there's
[01:36:47] Speaker B: a huge amount of second hand glass on the market these days. You know, there are whole companies that run their business on it just selling secondhand, you know, cameras and lenses.
It's always a great place to start and especially to be honest, where you're going to land.
[01:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Sorry Greg. But yeah, like that big glass, if you're using it, that's great. But if you're not using it, it's just sitting there gathering dust and then when you go to get rid of it, it's getting three or four grand for it.
[01:37:11] Speaker B: Hear that Justin? Hear that?
[01:37:13] Speaker C: What's that? I don't have any big glass.
[01:37:15] Speaker B: No, but you got a lot of dust on your lenses.
[01:37:18] Speaker C: No, I don't shoot my gear all the time.
[01:37:22] Speaker B: Whatever.
How does one person shoot six different types of 50 mil for the one camera mount? That's what I.
[01:37:28] Speaker C: There are a couple of 50 mils that are just sitting there doing nothing, I'll be honest. But most of them, most of them get used.
Yeah, let's talk macro. You said you use. Because I really would like to try macro. Greg has been dabbling in the tiny little world of macro. I moved to a new house and there's a lot more creepy crawlies here. I saw one on the fence post last night that I was like, it was like one of those spitfire things, but I'd never seen one quite like this before and I thought, oh, that would make a cool photo. It was just crawling along.
So you mentioned a twin flash thing that goes in the front. But I've seen a lot of people, including Greg lately, using a diffuser, a custom made of a single flash. What's your take on those two options and why do you go with the twin flash?
[01:38:21] Speaker A: I was actually having this conversation with a good friend and one of the authors that I've worked With over the years, Scott Eiper and we were having this exact discussion as 2 to 3 flash as opposed to a diffuser. And I think it's just personal preference of what you want. As a result, I use two because it gives me everything I need. I don't need an extra flash, an extra set of batteries, everything else. But Scott photographs frogs and things like that and he feels that three is a minimum for that.
But then, wow, you can go with like diffusers and maybe, you know, you've got to do some white light correction later on and, and things like that because, you know, you're not getting that, I suppose white light, you're getting more of a yellowish sort of result. More, you know, more saturated, warmer result is at the end of it. But it depends again, like what are you after? What, what are you trying to take a picture for? You taking it to put up on the wall. Well, that's great. You're trying to get a picture to go in a book. That's got to show like extra detail or whatever. Yeah, I don't, don't have any opinion. I think it's, it's up to the user and what they want to get out of it.
[01:39:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:39:34] Speaker C: And, and so with your twin, twin flash. I've never used one of these things. I've seen them.
You can control the ratio of light coming from each. Is that how they work? Yeah. So you can, you can have more light coming from one side, less light coming from the other side or vice versa to craft it the way you want it to go.
[01:39:54] Speaker A: And you got like the sending units up on the top of the, like the control master unit. And you can use other flash units as the master as well. But I use the dedicated master on the top of the camera that sits in the flash flash shoe. And then yeah, it's just A and B channels or ABC channels depending on the flash unit. And yeah, as you say, you can adjust the intensity of the different flash units first.
[01:40:21] Speaker C: Macro lens, what focal length? Don't worry about brands or anything like that. But what focal length do you think would be the best all rounder for people to just jump in and have a play with macro, assuming they're on full frame.
[01:40:36] Speaker A: I mean 50. I've shot some really cool pictures with 55, you know, and, and it's perfect for things that don't. That aren't skittish, that are just going to sit there and you can get nice and close.
But you know, it's like anything, the closer you get, the more, you know, Depth of field, you're going to lose, you know, it's going to be more precise focus.
So therefore, if you, if you're happy just to get a picture of something that, you know, over the eye and the heads in focus, then.
Yeah, an extension set of extension tubes, you know, the front end magnifiers, if you're getting good glass to put on the front.
But yeah, 55, there's lots of pictures in the books that are taken on 55. 105 is obviously that little bit more versatile, but, you know, I just love my 200. But it's more money. It's, it's. I was lucky to get some gear from a friend and the 200F4 was one of those.
And that's allowed me to take a lot of pictures of things that are more like, I don't have to get as close butterflies, things that are a bit more skittish, that you can stand back a bit and you've got that better focal range. But yeah, but yeah, it's like the same as what same before. It's like depends what you want at the end of it.
[01:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I ended up getting a Fuji macro lens. It was 45 mil equivalent and I love it. And provided I don't scare off my subject, because you do have to get mighty close to it. You know, we're talking millimeters to the front of the lens to get, to get the best quality images. It just scares so much stuff that and the, and the flash with the big Cygnus Tech diffuser. You know, I'm only using a small Fuji kit, but you, you know, you sort of. You see a bug on a, on a bush somewhere or on, on a, on a, on a flower. But getting to it, you disrupt all this stuff around it because you're trying to get the camera right in there, you know, and I've always found that quite a challenge. I think, you know, if I were to continue doing macro at A, and wanting to expand it, then I'd. Yeah, I'd go for a 90 mil, which is a 135 full frame equivalent. Yeah, yeah, just to give me that, that breathing space. But that's a learning. You know, I've still taken some amazing shots of my macro. Learn stuff that I'm really, really happy with. You know, I've enjoyed that experience and I look forward to getting out again soon and doing some more.
But yeah, it's interesting the things we learn from. Sometimes you buy gear and it just, it felt like a good idea at the time, but it turns out that it didn't quite stack up necessarily is what we needed.
[01:43:10] Speaker A: Do you do stacking, Greg? Sorry.
[01:43:12] Speaker B: No, I don't. I try to keep my editing very simple.
[01:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know how. So that's, I'll be honest.
[01:43:18] Speaker C: Do you, do you do that, Peter, with your stuff? And how does that work with moving creepy crawlies? Or do they have to be just static?
[01:43:26] Speaker A: I don't, I don't do photo stacking. So I mean, like, or image stacking. And I was having that discussion with Steve when I was up there, Steve Parish, and it was like, he's like, you know, he's just an awesome photographer and he's just as enthusiastic today as he was probably 50 years ago. But. But he's, he's sort of saying it's just some exceptional images out there. And I can't argue with that. There is.
[01:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:43:51] Speaker A: But is that. That's not, that's not me. It's like I'm taking a picture to go in a book that's depicting a, an insect or a lizard or something. And it's like I want a picture that shows it. Not necessarily the best picture of it, you know, but it's a picture that's going to give the reader an idea of what that animal looks like. Yeah.
[01:44:11] Speaker B: I guess because you've got, you're not coming at that task like it's an art project. You're coming at as a very much a scientific thing that you're describing something. So you need the image to match the description and the accuracy of what the, what the subject is.
[01:44:24] Speaker A: And I've tried all that. I mean, like, you know, you reverse mount a, whatever, an 80 mil or whatever in it, you know, and you get ultra close and you get these ultra magnified pictures of something's eyeball. And it's like, it's phenomenal, like. And I think that's the, you know, the wonder that people get from looking at other people's work. It's like, yeah, I would never have seen that before in my life if you hadn't taken a picture and shown that to me. Yeah.
[01:44:50] Speaker B: And more often than not, the, the question comes up here.
[01:44:53] Speaker A: How.
[01:44:53] Speaker B: How did you get that?
[01:44:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:44:56] Speaker B: You know, that's often the question that we, we naturally ask because we're inquisitive by nature as photographers. And, you know, I love those answers. Yeah. As well.
[01:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And like underwater photography is like, it's in that realm as well. It's not necessarily the ultra microscopic or the ultra macro Sort of side of things. It's, yeah, it's the world that we don't get exposed to on a daily basis that all of a sudden it's like, oh, my goodness. That exists.
[01:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
[01:45:23] Speaker C: Quick question from Lucinda Goodwin. Hey, Lucinda.
Peter. What's the hardest subject matter to photograph?
[01:45:33] Speaker A: For me, it's frogs, because I don't like going out at night very often, but hardest to photograph. I mean, anything is moving for me. It's like I can, I can take a thousand really bad shots of something that I want to try and get a picture of. And I go, my goodness, can you not just stay still? Can I put you in the freezer for a little while?
[01:45:57] Speaker B: Get out that liquid nitrogen again?
[01:46:00] Speaker A: I, I mean, probably not answering the question in a direct sense, but I think dangerous things for me. I've been out on a lot of sort of photo shoots of, of things like snakes and things, and that's hard.
They're hard because they're close to the ground. They're hard because they move really fast. I was out on a, like a shoot, this is in 2018, and it was like, it was a private shoot. The guy was breeding snakes, reptiles, bits and pieces, and it was like it was 40 degrees and he didn't want to get the eastern brown snake out until he had a friend there that could manage this, you know, very deadly reptile. Yeah. And when his friend turned up, they were both there with the, like, snake grabbers and bits and pieces. And I was like, sitting, I don't know.
Well, I wasn't sitting. I was, like, crouched down a bit, trying to get pictures of the, you know, when they, in their throat display, they do the S shape, sort of posture. And I was sort of just snapped a few pictures, probably about, I don't know, 15 meters away, 10 meters away, something like that. Probably 10.
And I stood up to have a look at the pictures I got, and two seconds later, that snake just shot straight between my legs, heading for the undergrowth behind me in a split second. It moved that fast.
[01:47:24] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:47:25] Speaker A: And the guys managed to grab it when it got into the undergrowth and put it back in its enclosure. And it was like that was just standing there, shaking their heads, going, wow. You know, you were lucky, like, that team went straight between your legs.
But also, it just, it was so, so far. So, yeah. So I, I, I think things that are close to the ground, not necessarily dangerous snakes, but things that, there's always something obscuring what you want to see. They're always tricky, but things that can potentially kill you.
[01:47:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it ups the ante quite a bit, doesn't it? You know, it's, there's an element of risk involved and, and that's both exciting and terrifying.
[01:48:05] Speaker A: There's been lots of photographers bitten by snakes, trying to get a better.
[01:48:07] Speaker B: Yeah, spiders and.
[01:48:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, all of it, exactly.
[01:48:13] Speaker B: I want to talk a little bit about your photography in terms of. I was reading on your website the page about ethical birding in photography and you talk about the do's and don'ts for people that are out in the field doing this kind of work. What, what are, what are the top three do's and don'ts that, that you recall for, for folks about to head out, you know, maybe on their first or they're, you know, they're heading out again and they hadn't thought of these things in the past. What are the things that people should be doing?
[01:48:44] Speaker A: Well, I think if we start with the do's, it's, it's research what you're trying to photograph, like know where you're going, but also be aware of where you're going as far as, like for yourself, your own safety, you know, we don't want to be jumping in a car and heading down a bush track trying to find something that's only found in that area. Getting stuck down there and, you know, it's, it's, it's hazardous. Australia is a dangerous country. Not necessarily the animals, but the environment that we're out in, the ability to call for help. We've got, you know, Apache signal and things. So always, always tell someone where you're going, always research where you're going, make sure you go prepared.
But in order to make it not fruitless, exercise as far as getting the pictures you're trying to get, make sure you research what you're trying to photograph and be in the right place at the right time. I was talking to someone the other day about the insect I'd nominated for the insect of the year. And like a ladybird and they sort of typically fly or crawl up a branch or to the tip of a leaf and then take off.
And so if you want to get a picture of it with its hard wing case coverings, the elytra open and its wings expanded just about to take off, you've got to know that about the animal. Yeah, you've got to know what its habits are.
So, yeah, so I think that's a lot of the two. Do things like make sure you do your research well, but make sure you're well prepared. Prepared, got the right gear, got the right, like first aid kits and car spares and all the things that you might need. If you're going remote, always tell someone where you're going.
Don't.
I'm huge on the.
Don't disturb the natural environment. Like if you're going to roll a log over to try and take a picture of a beetle or a spider or something, then roll the log back again. Or, you know, I've seen people that rip bark off trees. Like, you know, they're trying to make a wood sculpture or something. But you know that you're destroying habitat, you're destroying sheltering places for things that live under bark. And they can be lizards, it could be microbats, it could be all sorts of things. When you go with that mindset of going, well, I'm taking a picture of an insect and there's lots more cover for it. But it's not just about the, the thing you're trying to photograph, it's about the environment itself.
Yeah.
I've been on photo shoots when. Or bird. Birding exercises, probably that people just relentlessly play playback calls at a full volume on their phone, thinking that that's going to bring the bird to them rather than them go and find the bird. Well, yeah, I mean, first, it shouldn't be relentless, it should be used sparingly.
You should just play call and wait for it to respond or wait for it to get inquisitive. And then maybe a minute or so later you can play it again, keep the volume down because their ears are much better than ours.
So, you know, you might be playing something that you think is a.
A volume that's going to be, you know, acceptable, but to them it's like, it's. It's like front row at AC DC concert. You know,
[01:52:08] Speaker B: what a night. I, I didn't realize people did that in those, in these sort of circumstances, you know, where they can actually play the. The animal's call.
[01:52:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:52:17] Speaker B: And response. Or maybe even get a visit.
[01:52:19] Speaker A: They get a response. Like, again, I was chatting to a friend of mine, Angus McNabb, who's a. I think he's a wonderful photographer in that. But it's like he was doing a book and he's going, I can only get pictures of males of this particular species or a few different species.
And it's like. And that's because people go out, they take. They play playback and then next thing is like, the males will come back because they're the territorial ones and they're going, oh, you know, there's another male or something and, and so, yeah, you get this picture of a male looking quite agitated and very few pictures of the females. So. Yeah, no, it's a thing. It's a thing. And I mean it's a handy tool like anything else, but again, use sparingly.
[01:53:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't thought of it. Kind of. It reminds me of, I don't know if it was a Looney Tunes cartoon where someone had a duck whistle.
Just something like that popped into my head.
Justin, just for you, Looney Tunes was a series of cartoons we used to watch when we were growing up.
[01:53:16] Speaker C: Oh, Greg, I watched a lot of Looney Tunes. Thank you very much.
[01:53:20] Speaker B: All right, should we check on, on a couple of quick comments before we, before we start to wrap up soon?
[01:53:26] Speaker C: Yep. Julie Powell says leave nothing but footprints and harm nothing. Yeah, I agree.
Paul Sutton says I'm late to the party.
There is a place I go to that has little blue wrens. I go back regularly and now I know their favorite bushes.
So there is one tip. Go back regularly and know your spot.
[01:53:48] Speaker B: That's a great advice.
Absolutely.
[01:53:51] Speaker C: And Phil Thompson says Elmer Fudd had that duck whistle. Oh yeah. Elmer Fudd himself into a lot, lot of trouble.
[01:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Wabbit Susie.
[01:53:59] Speaker C: Yeah, that's, yeah, I'm sure he's, I'm sure a carrot ended up getting stuck into his shotgun that exploded in his face or something.
[01:54:08] Speaker B: Pretty much.
[01:54:09] Speaker C: Peter, I wanted to find out about your newest book, your memoir or the memoir, the Long Road Home.
I haven't read it, but I, I want you to give me a little bit of a, a little bit of a rundown so that I can maybe pick it up and give it a read.
[01:54:28] Speaker A: I, you know, I mean, you get, you get a bit of, I suppose, burnout when you're doing things. And I wrote a lot of the natural history, wildlife field guides and I want to just point out that it's not just me writing these. I've got co authors and sometimes I'm the lead author and sometimes they're the lead author and you know, we share that load and the books are, you know, as, as much their product as they are mine. But I wanted to try and change what I was writing a little bit. I mean, I'm still in that non fiction space, but also just telling it more as a narrative rather than a like, I suppose, a scientific facts and, and figures.
And it actually came about that when I was, it was just at the end of COVID sort of Eras. I was bored at home before that and I was sorting out videotapes and old things and looking what I could throw out and everything else and came across all the old videos that I'd taken on 1992 trip around Australia, which was actually my first around Australia trip. And it was the trip that was like, oh my God, how big is this country and how beautiful is it?
And I went to a local place and they put them onto digital for me, converted to digital.
And yeah, I sat there watching. It was horrendous footage.
It was like a lot of it in the car and lots of really fast panning and lots of things going on the radio while we're trying to show what we're looking at. And yeah, it's just. Anyway, but it was just like all of a sudden it was like, wow, that was such a cool trip. It like we did 20,000 K's in eight weeks.
It was an awesome, awesome eye opener to what Australia's got to offer. And as I looked at it, I sort of thought I shouldn't just write about that trip. I want to, I want to sort of put it down as a, as a, like, I suppose, part of my journey.
And yeah, and yeah, I started writing it and got out my bird list and got out my trip diaries and suddenly it became the Long Road Home, which is just that chronicle of the, of the. Probably for me one of the best road trips I think I've ever done.
[01:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow.
[01:56:47] Speaker C: Who, who would, who would suit this book? Like who's it, who's it written for?
[01:56:53] Speaker A: I've written it in a sort of a self deprecating. I mean I love Douglas Adams writing, I love Bill Bryson writing.
I'm not trying to be a Bill Bryson or a Douglas Adams, but going back to what we spoke about earlier, you're right about what you like to read yourself. And I think that that sort of obviously influenced my writing style years ago. So if you, you know, as a lady reviewed a lovely, lovely review, but she sort of said it's a hard read, you know, because it's like it's a road journey that's listing a lot of places, a lot of things we, we experienced on the way. But then I digress into these vignettes on like my first experience seeing an emu in the wild or at seeing wedge tailed eagles eating roadkill at the end of the Nullarbor and the rock formations around, you know, southwestern western Australia. So it sort of moved from that very narrative, a very, I suppose, travel log style, you know, Going to make a thorough. Going to this and doing that, going down in a mine and everything to this, you know, trying to depict the sites or the most memorable bits in a style that's a bit more entertaining and a bit more, I suppose, Bryson esque. If we want to put a tag on it that, you know, it's. They're bizarre. You know, Australia is full of bizarre things. Ancient rocks and, you know, shaggy birds on long stilts. So, yeah, if you, if you like Australia and you like a road trip and you like wildlife, then it's sort of.
It's about that. But it was also, at the time I was going through, you know, a bit of a, like a mental health crisis, I suppose. I ended up in hospital with a severe panic attack. And I remember the doctor saying to me, you know, what's your favorite bird? I was like, what? I've strapped all these machines, I'm dying. Why do you want to know my favorite bird? And I sort of said, I like power birds sort of thing. And he goes, oh, well, I like penguins. I like little penguins, they're really cool. And I was like, oh. And anyway, long story short, he said, you're not having a heart attack, you're having a panic attack. You need to chill out a bit. Don't have a go, go on a holiday.
Grab your camera, off you go. And it was like, yeah, so what better than do 20,000 k's with a mate that snores like. Like a train.
[01:59:21] Speaker B: Doctor's orders.
[01:59:22] Speaker A: Exactly. Disorders.
[01:59:24] Speaker C: Awesome.
[01:59:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I need. I need to find a doctor who says that going to Japan would be
[01:59:29] Speaker C: therapeutic or solve all your problems.
[01:59:32] Speaker B: Bingo.
[01:59:32] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:59:33] Speaker C: Yep, There you go.
[01:59:35] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:59:35] Speaker B: Actually, my partner's a doctor. I should just get her to say it. Why I haven't thought about this before.
[01:59:40] Speaker C: Come on, Justin.
So this, this book is also available on Peter's website, which is prpw.comau go to the book section and it's the first one at the top. The long road home, $30 bargain.
[01:59:56] Speaker A: And it's also on Kindle, so you can get it.
[01:59:58] Speaker C: I was just about to say also on Kindle, not audio. I'm kind of an audiobook kind of guy. Not on audiobook. You didn't want to sit in the reading booth for nine weeks in a row. However they do that. How do they do that?
[02:00:11] Speaker A: Like, I do, actually. It's funny because when I, like, I announced the book, I had some friends that said you should do it as an audiobook. And I go, yeah, you know, I'm not, not really. I don't have that voice. I don't think to be able to.
[02:00:24] Speaker C: I. I think you could do a great job.
[02:00:27] Speaker A: Thanks.
[02:00:28] Speaker C: Well, I. This is. I listen to a lot of audiobooks. I don't know if you are. If you're more of a read or if you do audiobooks at all, but I struggle. I think it would work really well for this potentially. I haven't, I haven't read the book, but I struggle. I think it would be really tough doing fiction and that's where you need the, the voice actors and the, you know, the pros. But the best audiobooks I've listened to that are non fiction have been read by the author.
Yeah, it just, for some reason, it just seems like I'm listening to them telling their story as opposed to some voice actors to reading their book and it really connects better. And it doesn't matter what their voice is.
[02:01:08] Speaker A: It's.
[02:01:08] Speaker C: It's them.
[02:01:10] Speaker A: I don't know.
[02:01:11] Speaker C: That's just me.
[02:01:12] Speaker A: And it's like, again, I mean, like, I'm not going to compare myself to anybody, but it was funny. This person said that I should do it as an audiobook because the.
Their favorite book that they like to listen to favorite audiobook was a David Attenborough memoir of his life, like life on Air, whichever one it was.
And she said that the thing was that he. You could hear the passion about what he was talking about, but he also, you know, digressed a little bit to give a bit of backstory. So you sort of didn't get 100% the audiobook text. He got the book. The. What the book was about, not the
[02:01:52] Speaker B: way he wanted to tell it. I guess if you. David Attenborough, you could do it any bloody way you want.
[02:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Right.
[02:01:58] Speaker C: And I've seen a few like, I've seen a few done like that as well where even in between the chapters and they say that at the start and they're like, hey, in between the chapters. I'm going to just give you a little bit of extra context in my own words. And you're like, wow, that's actually. That's very cool. You know, that's.
[02:02:11] Speaker A: They just sort of. Yeah.
[02:02:12] Speaker B: So couple of quick comments. We'll just go through the first one. I think this is something from Lucinda. For the right amount of money, Peter might read it to you. Justin, maybe you guys can set up a regular nighttime read. Justin. Kind of.
[02:02:27] Speaker C: That'd be amazing.
[02:02:30] Speaker B: We have to break it down into episodes. Yeah. Chapters.
[02:02:33] Speaker C: That's right.
[02:02:33] Speaker B: Julie. Also wants to know is the Kindle book with color photos?
[02:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:02:37] Speaker C: And I want to add a question to this. Like, yeah, so is there images in this, in the long road home, and are those images from this trip or are they illustrations or what, what, what is the book like in that sense?
[02:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah, there is, there is color images. There are color images to use my correct grammar.
They're not. There's some from the trip back then, like, but I wasn't, I wasn't a Fuji Chrome user. I was an Ectochrome user. So it's just.
They didn't last the test of time. Sorry.
But yeah, things like the great Australian bite and the twelve apostles and some of those geological. And some of the plant species. Actually there's some Mulla Muller, West Australian wildflowers in there. They're original slides from the original trip.
But then other things I'd. Yeah, used nicer newer images like emus and wedgies and things like that. So, yeah, it is the, the color is on the, the ebook version. It's.
I had a friend in Canada read it and she said, oh, I just wish I had a color Kindle to be able to do it. So what I've done is I've actually built a page on my website for the book.
So all color images, all the things that, that people can just jump on and see, like a higher res because just to give you the backstory just a little bit. It's like books these days don't come out with like the glossy sections where you can really bring a picture to life. It's like one paper all the way through the book and the online print on demand stuff like through Amazon and people like that, they, you know, they just charge you per page as if the whole thing was color.
So all of a sudden a book that you're trying to sell for 30 bucks.
[02:04:29] Speaker C: So I was just going to say, so essentially, if you want to put one color image in. I remember the books you were talking about where they would have these little sections of maybe 12 pages with beautiful images slightly thicker and it would be sort of somewhere in the middle. Somewhere. Okay. So basically, if you want to put one color image in there, you might as well have an entire photo book because that's how they price it and make it okay.
[02:04:52] Speaker A: And it becomes like, you know, the printable like that because it cost you more than you're selling the book for. So, so that's why I went down the website path of saying, well, hey, there's a QR code now. And actually it will be when it goes up the QR code in the back and you can just go to the website and.
[02:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah, great.
[02:05:10] Speaker A: You can.
[02:05:10] Speaker B: You can look detail and. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a brilliant idea. That's very, very clever.
[02:05:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:05:16] Speaker B: We have another question from Lisa Leach. G', day, Lisa. Good morning. Do you have a creative process to start writing? How do you get past the starting block? So Lisa is also a writer and an amazing photographer. She's been published in a couple of Aussie photography magazines with her how to. And you know, how she's explored landscapes. So check them out if you haven't seen them. But question for you, obviously, Peter, how do you get past that, that initial starting block?
[02:05:44] Speaker A: Well, for me, I. I just. I'm. I like to clean like. I like to. I like to have a clean environment. So, like, for me, my. My biggest procrastination is sitting there to write in a place that I don't feel in the headspace space. And it's like I do all that first. Like, I do all the tidying up and the cleaning, have my coffee and do all those and. And then sit down to write. And I feel a bit more organized, I think, like physically, emotionally, whatever. But yeah, but yeah, that's. That's sort of like a process.
But deadlines are a great motivator.
Yeah, I don't know if I've got a specific creative process. It's. It's more, I suppose I'm a big picture person, so I do the layout first and then I fill in the blanks later.
And then as part of that writing process, because I'm doing like field guide style things more than the memoirs at the moment.
Like, I'll do the same things for each of the species as I go, so I might do the distributions for every species for first. Because you get in that, like, that flow of. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's the style I'm writing in. You know, I'm writing this section and then I might do the descriptions next or I might do the habits and habitats next, whichever.
[02:07:04] Speaker C: But.
[02:07:04] Speaker A: But, yeah, that's it.
[02:07:05] Speaker C: But I'm.
[02:07:06] Speaker A: I'm very much a layout person first. So, yeah, get myself organized, get the book nice and neat and tidy so I know where I'm going and then sit down and do the writing for
[02:07:17] Speaker C: the, for the memoir or for. For anything that requires a bit more, I guess.
What would you call that?
[02:07:25] Speaker A: Creativity, maybe creativity.
[02:07:27] Speaker C: Less structured, less research. I mean, there was obviously research in your memoir, but it's also a little bit more Creative writing. Do you subscribe to the Jerry Seinfeld style of things where it's like, hey, from this time to this time every day I'm writing and at my desk and if nothing comes out, nothing comes out. But I'm not going to go outside and fluff around, you know, if I'm, if I'm here, I'm here and I have to sit here and just deal with boredom if I don't write. How do you approach that style of things?
[02:08:01] Speaker A: I definitely don't do it that way, but I have heard that and I think it's great. If you can just say, well, this is all I'm doing for this 90 minutes and my phone's in my bedroom or it's in the kitchen or wherever, and I'm not going to let anything else distract me, then, yeah, that's, that's a great way to do it. But no, my, mine is, I mean, I probably don't ever really struggle with sitting down to ride. I, I find there's always something to do and whether I, it's not the bit I want to do. So in, in the long ride home, there were like sections, as I said, like trying to, you know, put an emu into the reality of what an emu is, you know, which is a bizarre looking animal.
I would.
If I'm in that headspace of writing something, then I'm going to write something. And again, it's going back to that post it notes thing we were talking about before that, you know, it doesn't have to be the finished thing. It's something, you know, and we all know that good, good writing is only a product of good editing. Because we were like, that's where the magic is, is you just put something down on paper.
As long as it's something, it's, it's building towards the end product.
The thing that ends up on the shelf or in someone's hand is part of a 7, 8, 9, 10 months of editing. You know, that's, that's, that's the real magic is, is being able to trim down the unnecessary words. Being able to, you know, even expand on something that you find yourself reading and thinking, oh, that actually made myself laugh.
So, yeah, so it's, it's doing something doesn't have to be perfect. It's just doing, doing something and then coming back to it later on and tidying it up a bit.
[02:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is interesting seeing how other people approach the writing.
Often a challenge. You know, you've got to be in the right headspace. Sometimes you just can't clear the. Either clear the cobwebs or the noise from your mind to find that stream of consciousness that you want to, you know, link into. It can be challenging, but.
[02:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry, I was going to say, I'll also be honest that a piece of paper is often your best friend. You know, if you like to go to the cafe, sit there and have a coffee and write some notes on a piece of paper. I mean, that's. Yeah, you don't have to be sitting at a computer where your mind's going, I'm working.
You can be anywhere. I mean, you can do a voice to text, whatever, but, you know, it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing.
If you've got a something to scribble on or something to talk into, that's often where the best ideas come. Sorry.
[02:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I always carry it like a notebook.
You know, I get a nice big Moleskine notebook every now and then and that's where everything goes. Yeah.
[02:10:52] Speaker A: You know,
[02:10:55] Speaker B: fancy lucky straps have got some of them.
[02:10:57] Speaker C: We did. We don't have any at the moment, but. Yeah, we have. Did we sell the ones at Brian Bendigo? Oh, sorry, there is two. Yeah, there is two.
Some very nice made in Bendigo leather wrap journals.
[02:11:10] Speaker A: Nice.
[02:11:11] Speaker B: Nice plug. Nice plug.
Just before we move into final questions, I just want to remind everybody at home whether you're watching now or you're watching this back later, don't forget you can comment in the live chat if you're here with us now.
We love that. It helps us guide the show and give content that you want to hear, answer questions you want answered. But then, of course, if you are watching back, don't forget. This is the Camera Life podcast. We do this twice a week. Every Thursday morning at 9:00am Currently Australian Eastern Daylight Time, we go live with an interview with an amazing Aussie or international guest photographer. We get to learn what makes them tick, where it began and where they're going. And then every Monday evening, 7.30pm, Australian Eastern Daylight Time, we have our random photography show where we talk about random photography things, the news, product launches, what we've been up to with our photography. But more importantly, we get to look at your images. That's right. We have a section dedicated to people sending in their images and we will bring them up live on a Monday evening and we'll talk to them, we'll give you feedback if that's what you're after. Or we'll just celebrate whatever success you feel you've had. And that's only on the Camera Life podcast live in every episode. But of course, you can watch them back later on the YouTubes or on your favorite podcasting platforms. Now, Justin, if people do want to send in an image for this coming Monday's night. And our special guest is Adam Edwards.
What's the email address? Because I get it wrong every time.
[02:12:31] Speaker C: It is the camera
[email protected]. that's the camera
[email protected].
email the photo there, make it the subject line. Nice and clear, please. You know what it is and yeah, we'll bring it up on the show live. You know, we've actually got the only. As far as I'm aware, but I'm going to keep saying it until someone corrects me. The only live call in podcast photography podcast on the Internet. So you can actually ring us. You can ring the mobile number on Monday nights and just call us. You can prank call us if you want. We haven't had a prank call yet. I'm looking forward to our first one.
[02:13:04] Speaker B: Kind of want one now, don't we?
[02:13:06] Speaker A: Kind of want to.
[02:13:07] Speaker C: I was like, that's when we know we're famous. So, yeah, if you tune in on Monday nights, we'll have a number up on the screen. You can just ring us and be like, hey, what's up? And we'll get. Call it. You're live on the air, you know,
[02:13:15] Speaker A: like a radio, like a.
[02:13:16] Speaker C: Like professionals. If it works.
[02:13:19] Speaker B: Anyway, let's not get carried away, boss. That is enough of that.
[02:13:25] Speaker A: Peter, it's.
[02:13:26] Speaker B: It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. We often ask a couple of questions at the end of each episode. Justin usually asks one and I ask another. So, Jay, do you want to. You want to kick off first with your gear?
[02:13:37] Speaker C: I feel like I haven't asked this for like a while. We need to maybe bring it back. I keep forgetting or whatever, but you
[02:13:43] Speaker B: should bring it back.
[02:13:44] Speaker C: If, Peter, if it was. If it was the end of the world, maybe sometimes they say zombies. I think today I'm thinking, you know, maybe nuclear issues or something like that. End of the world and you've got to go on the run out into the desert or somewhere in Australia to hide from something.
What camera and lens would you grab? If you could just grab one camera and lens and you're like, all right, I got to document the crazy bugs that start coming out after the nuclear fallout, like the supercharged tarantulas and things and cockroaches and stuff. Whatever survives. What camera and lens would you take to document the end of the world?
[02:14:21] Speaker A: Wow, cool.
Great, Great question. I mean, like, if I was traveling light, I would just say I'd take something like an OSMO pocket, you know, because I think the rares. Yeah. That they take and the video and the gimbal and I love using it. I love using it. If it was waterproof, then that would be it. Otherwise, I suppose. Yeah. My Hero 9 would be the one that would go out because it's got.
[02:14:50] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[02:14:51] Speaker A: Digital stab. And it's waterproof as well because I did drop my OSMO pocket, the first one I had in the rockpool trying to put. Trying to put the waterproof casing on.
Oh, that's gold.
[02:15:04] Speaker B: No wonder you have photographing frogs.
[02:15:08] Speaker A: That's right. No, something light. Something. Yeah, something that's going to actually like if, if by some reason aliens end up liking what I. What I took pictures of and something. Yeah, a bit edgy. Like, like that would be good. Yeah.
[02:15:23] Speaker B: Keeping guessing.
[02:15:24] Speaker C: I like it. That's an interesting. Not many people have answered the action cam. I think everyone's worried that you have to get too close to things to, to get some footage. So I like that answer. That's fun.
Very good.
[02:15:36] Speaker B: And my final question today, Peter, you know, just as Steve Parish recommended you for the Camera Life podcast, what an honor having Steve Parish put you forward as a potential guest for this show. That's. That's pretty cool. You should put that in your bio.
But who would you like to see us interview next on the Camera Life podcast? Who would be someone that you think we could tap into for some info?
[02:15:59] Speaker A: I mean, I'm very biased in the, in the field that I work in. I've got some awesome co authors and friends that work in niche areas.
So I, I think, you know, in reality, you know, we look at. Photography is such a huge field of things and what gets most press in the commercial realm is, is things that I know people are familiar with. You know, it's something seen in a slightly different way or it's presented a different light or a different style or something. But I think I would nominate a, like a natural history photographer, like a specialist photographer myself. Someone who sort of like really goes into that, trying to get the best picture possible of a, I don't know, you know, a rare frog or a whale or something like that. I mean, I've worked with some wonderful people that do underwater photography and, you know, they're just talented people. I'm. I'm a writer so, you know, photography to me is an adjunct to, to what I'm trying to do with my, the purpose of what I do.
But I think, yeah, wildlife photographers that do that sort of stuff.
[02:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you have anyone off the top of your head that you think would be a worthy.
[02:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, from a technical perspective, I mentioned a couple of people. I mean, so Angus McNabb I think, is a wonderful photographer and a very interesting guy. Scott. Scott. Scotty Eiper, who I was chatting to last night. His photography is great, but his knowledge of mammal, of reptiles, frogs and, you know, the natural world is just, you know, he's a, he's an encyclopedia, walking encyclopedia. So. Yeah, yeah, either of those two, I think they're, yeah, great, they're great photographers and great people in the field of what they're working in. So.
[02:17:55] Speaker B: Yeah, no, well, thank you. We'll look them up and if you speak to either in the meantime, tell him that I'm coming for him.
[02:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh well.
[02:18:04] Speaker C: Oh well, watch out.
[02:18:05] Speaker A: Well, you won't get Angus at the moment. He's in New guinea trying to photograph long beaked echidnas.
[02:18:09] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, I've got, I've got a fair reach, don't worry.
[02:18:14] Speaker C: Are there amazing echidnas? I thought they also had a pretty decent length.
[02:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So the ones we have in Australia and actually the long beak, they used to be in Australia. Australia as well. So it's like the beak is actually, you know, as long as a banana, as it were.
But they're, they're a different animal. I mean, the same, same like group, but they're like a different genus within the monotremes.
So. Yeah, so we used to have one in Australia, but it's only known from fossil evidence. Not been. No,
[02:18:46] Speaker B: they're still in existence in New Guinea.
[02:18:48] Speaker A: In New guinea, yeah, yeah. And they ate like earthworms and things like that rather than our short beaked echidnas that we're familiar with.
[02:18:55] Speaker B: Do they have a preference for the male or the female worms? And how do they tell?
Seems to be a theme. Seems to be a theme.
[02:19:03] Speaker A: Aren't they hermaphrodites? I don't know, I'm not really a worm guy, but yeah, you're using lots
[02:19:08] Speaker B: of big words that we just don't get. So, you know, we nod and we
[02:19:11] Speaker A: smile but really inside they got both bits going on. If we want to go, oh yeah,
[02:19:18] Speaker B: yeah, I can, yeah, I can pick and choose.
How nice.
Well, I think that's it for, for the question side of things, Peter it has been an absolute honor having you on the Camera Life podcast this morning and sharing with us your incredible journey that, you know, you've seen a side of Australia's natural world that many of us only dream to even see a fraction of. And I think in that respect, you know, you've.
You've been given opportunity and privilege and you've made the most of it and produce products and experiences that educate others about just how amazing our country is when we look at it as a naturalist. So, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. And I know, and I'm sure that the folks in the chats certainly feel the same way, so thank you very much.
[02:20:07] Speaker A: Thank you, guys. Yeah, and I just want to sort of say, as I mentioned earlier, it's. It's. It's when you see people that you've influenced, like through the books, through the bits and pieces, but especially the younger people. And. And to me, that's where the future is, obviously, that you're.
You're bringing an awareness of something that can be their life's purpose. You know, that's. That's the reward. You get that.
That buzz of, this is why I'm doing this. And, yeah. You know, I can never get sick of that. That's just. Yeah, that's where you get those moments of going, wow, you know, that's. It's making a difference to someone and that's it.
[02:20:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, Steve Parish coin coined the phrase creative purpose.
[02:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[02:20:53] Speaker B: And it's something that I've certainly taken to heart and to mind since talking to Peter, and I've kind of have been working in that space on my
[02:21:00] Speaker A: own, and I know.
[02:21:01] Speaker B: I'm sure that others that saw that conversation have, too, so. Yeah, great to hear.
[02:21:05] Speaker A: That's the thing. Because passion is about you, what you want.
Purpose is what you want to benefit other people or to give to the world or. Or to make a difference. And that's. I think Steve's nailed it on the head. Creative life purpose it is.
That's. That's. That's. Yeah, it's where we're going. It's what we all need to be doing.
[02:21:24] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. Well, thank you. Once again, we're going to roll some music. And, Jay, do you want to say goodbye to some peeps? And thank you.
[02:21:31] Speaker C: I do, I do. Everyone's very, very stoked with this interview. Julie Powell says, thank you. Such an inspiring interview, Peter.
Lisa Leach says, thank you, Peter.
Have a fabulous day. Rodney Nicholson. Very enjoyable. Lucinda Goodwin. Good chat, team. Oh, that's a Nick Fletcher quote, that one. Paul says. Awesome, guys. A great way to spend the morning on a long train ride. Well, thanks, Paul.
Nick. Nick says om.
Yeah, OM. One is the best for birds.
Who else was here today? Phil Thompson's. Roy Bigsby was here.
Oh, I'm going through too fast. Grant Fleming was here watching with the fam. What's up, Grant? I don't know. There was lots of people here. Thanks, everyone, for joining. Thanks for your comments.
Comment below if you're listening later and otherwise, we'll catch you on the next one.
Thanks, Peter.
[02:22:23] Speaker A: Awesome.
[02:22:24] Speaker B: Thanks, Peter.
[02:22:24] Speaker A: Thanks, Justin. Thanks, Greg.
[02:22:26] Speaker B: Our pleasure. Be safe, everyone.
