A conversation with Hashem McAdam (EP196)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam, You there? Greg? [00:00:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm there. Are you there? What happened? [00:00:31] Speaker A: Oh, good. I don't know what happened to you. You were talking. The video is going. Oh, no. We're off to a great start this morning. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Oh, it's just technical problems all over the place. Of course, it would be easy to blame our guest, but we'll just wait and see what else transpires from the episode and we can just sort of collectively blaming for a group of things. G', day, everybody, and welcome back to the Camera Life podcast. It is the 2nd of July. That's right. It is time to confess all of your sins, sins to the Australian government. And I am looking at you, Justin. [00:00:58] Speaker A: It is taxable anything this year. I've barely bought any gear. I haven't got a lot to rubbish. [00:01:02] Speaker B: How many 50 mils have you got? [00:01:04] Speaker A: All of them. All of them. [00:01:06] Speaker B: That's right, all of them. Doesn't even. Didn't even have to say a brand. And of course, being Thursday morning, we have a live interview with a phenomenal photographer from our community. We are talking Today to Hashim McAdam. G', Day, Hashem. How are you? [00:01:20] Speaker C: Good morning. Good. How are you guys? [00:01:22] Speaker A: Great. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Doing all right. Apart from a few technical glitches. Apparently I disappeared. I'm not sure what happened there, but [00:01:28] Speaker C: I'm sorry for that, folks. You can blame me, though, for the. The late start that was definitely, oh, [00:01:34] Speaker B: we will [00:01:37] Speaker C: fancy new camera. And it messed up. [00:01:39] Speaker A: You have far more experience than. Than Greg and I put together when it comes to YouTube and. And even, you know, you do podcasts and all that sort of stuff. And that's why it's quite crazy to see someone else have the same sort of glitches that we have on a weekly basis. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker C: You know what, though? I think you guys have it covered in this space of the podcast and livestream thing, because that's something I've always struggled with, because prerecording something when it's not live is a whole different ordeal. And every time I've done live, I always have this anxiety that something will go wrong, because about 30 to 50% of the time it does. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Yes. And that's the thing. But you just go with it and it works out. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [00:02:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it is what it is. I commend you guys like, you've been doing great on the podcast, by the way, and. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. We love you even more now. Thanks for the praise, Hashem. Of course. We want to. We want to unpack your full story today. And before we sort of roll back the clock and look at some of your early inspiration to become a photographer, I want to ask you a question. Reading through your bio, I saw that you made the choice in was it 2012 or 2013? 2013, to lean into becoming a professional photographer, a paid, you know, fully paid photographer. Did you leave a day job to make that leap? And if so, what were the things that worked well in making that leap of faith? And what things did you discover you just completely overlooked or you're blindsided by? [00:03:06] Speaker C: Well, it's. Don't quit your day job is like a good bit of advice for a reason because especially when you're making this transition, it's always going to be hard, right? Transitioning to freelance and losing that stability of a paycheck, even if you're just working part time, for example. But at a certain point you have to take the leap. And I think I had a couple of attempts of leaving the day job I was doing at the time, which, yes, I was working. It wasn't necessarily full time. I think it was two different casual jobs or a part time in a casual job. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:40] Speaker C: One of which was at a camera store. So anyone in Melbourne might remember Michael's camera, big multi level camera store. And I was doing, yeah, wearing a few hats, working in the service side of things, also doing education with the, the workshops and the teaching side of things. So although I quit the role I was doing, I still ended up going back as a kind of like a contractor to teach classes. And I was trying this balancing act of doing photography gigs which was a lot of corporate events, headshots, weddings, whatever I can get my hands on. And it was especially a lot of second shooting weddings and things that I was just trying to figure out what works for me where, like maybe where the money's at, what's sustainable in that sense. And I'm not gonna lie, it's, it's hard like relying on photography full time. It's at least for me it's not just like, hey, I know how to use a camera. That means I can go and become a photographer and survive off that. Yeah, it wasn't that easy. And it's still a delicate balancing act now because I've never gone back to full time work since, which I enjoy. I don't like working full time. Me neither for you know, a 9 to 5, so to speak. But yeah, it's, it's tricky. And Now I have YouTube. So that's part of the balancing act is trying to do the, the YouTube thing and the photography gigs because I can't, I still can't rely on just photography or just YouTube, but for me I enjoy that variety. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah, can you give us a quick overview of that? Like, so what's your, what's your life like now as a photographer is your business and that kind of thing? Like what, what irons have you got in the fire? Just give us a quick rundown. [00:05:21] Speaker C: So for example, in terms of photography gigs, I have an event I'm shooting next week, some headshots I'm doing for someone and then I don't have any weddings until August because it's kind of dry season for weddings at the moment. So I just take on whatever gigs I can get. Sometimes I'll have a friend reach out and they need a second shooter for videography or I, I don't do any single thing repeatedly. And that might be a problem of mine actually is I, I get bored easily. If I was, you know, it goes back to the nine to five thing. I've done that where I've sat behind the desk and worked behind a computer and yeah, I, I need that variety. So that's, that's what I do with photography. And then now I think I could say that YouTube takes about half of my, my time at least especially in the wedding off season where I've taken on review videos. Some of them are, you could call it client or brand deal type jobs where I'm reviewing something or doing sponsored spots at the moment, playing with this little camera Rico gr. I don't know. Some of the guys follow me on Instagram. It's the four monochrome. It's so far awesome. And I'm really lucky in that I've come to this like spot in the journey after about 10 years of doing YouTube where I have good relationships with brands, with the distributors of RICO products of, you know, I did the, the Pentax stuff in the past and I've worked with Nikon and Fuji. I've been really lucky in that sense and really grateful. So now I can reach out to brands and say, hey, do you want to work on a video together or some kind of paid deal? But it's still, still that balancing act. I can't call myself a full time YouTuber either. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, none of us can. [00:07:06] Speaker C: Would, you know, neither want to. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Actually that's what I was about to ask. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Would you. [00:07:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Is that a goal at all or is it. Do you like having a bit of a balance and being able to support with the other and vice versa and not have all your eggs in one basket in that sense. [00:07:26] Speaker C: Short answer? Yes, I think diversifying is good, especially if you can build different sources of passive income or whether it's like building a business of your own or something, someone out there who's maybe running an online store or something. I think not putting all your eggs in one basket is a good strategy. But also it goes back to that boredom thing where I think I like that variety. And, and, and it's also not just that I don't want to become a full term, term, Sorry, full time YouTuber, whatever you want to call it, because there's anything wrong with that. It's just that I love photography so much that I still feel like a photographer first and the YouTube stuff is born out of my enjoyment for photography. It wasn't that I started YouTube with an aim to make a great channel and, and make money or make that a business, which is a viable thing for some people. I don't think I have the personality or, I don't know, the grit for it. But yeah, at the moment I like the diversity because I still like to do my travel photography, work on personal projects, and even shoot the occasional gig. I think it keeps me sharp in the way of learning new skills. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Wonderful answer. So I guess diversification and like you said, not putting all your eggs in one basket is sage advice, especially until you feel established in at least, you know, one or two of those fields. Interesting. We'll roll back the clock soon and, and, and get to learn a little bit more about your story. But first we might say good morning to some people in the chat. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Justin, we definitely will. Everyone's here this morning. Philip Johnson was here early, says good morning. All from a chilly, windy Blue Mountains. Yeah, it's chilly here in Bendigo too rainy. Is it raining in Melbourne? [00:09:13] Speaker B: It rained over the night. It hasn't this morning. [00:09:15] Speaker C: On and off. Yeah, on and off. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Lisa Le Good morning. Rodney Nicholson says an iceberg hit the lighthouse in Point Lonsdale this morning. Yeah. I don't believe you, Rodney, but I actually did this. A photo? Never had he checked it. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Well, I wasn't sure. Rodney's a bit of a trickster. [00:09:33] Speaker A: So you know Lucinda Goodwin. [00:09:36] Speaker C: Good morning. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Thanks again for coming on Monday night show. It was awesome to have you. [00:09:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:39] Speaker A: See you again soon. It's always fun. Robert Varner. Good morning Australia from New Jersey where it's 33.9 degrees Celsius. Wow, that's hot for a New Jersey. That's okay. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's Australian weather. You Doing all right, Robert? Inside Aircon on Felicity Johnson. East coast photography says good morning all. Heading off to the first of four shoots today. We'll catch up in between them. Well, I'm glad we can keep you. Keep you. I don't know, what do you call it? Entertained in between your shoots. Very cool. What sort of shoots are they? Lisa Leach, David Leporardi. Felicity Johnson is already here. Sorry. Pushing film. Oh, hello. [00:10:20] Speaker C: That was me. [00:10:21] Speaker A: How'd you do that? [00:10:23] Speaker C: I have the chat open on another window. I love professional fancy attempt to be all techie. I have another screen over there. [00:10:32] Speaker A: So how many screens are you running? Have you got like a matrix level? Like crazy. [00:10:37] Speaker C: I might as well. I might as well. I'm actually running three screens at the moment. I used to be on two and now with video editing, well, it's actually that I only really need two, but I had like a leftover monitor that's kind of just a little old 1080p, like office style one that I thought I might as well connect it. It's not doing anything, so if I want I can turn it on. And in this case it's got the live chat on it. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, the whole multi screen thing. My, my kids, my older kids are adult kids. They're gamers and like they each have like four or five monitors set up one vertical, you know, one up here for this one for, for. What's the. What's the streaming service at Discord now? Discord. Thank you. Gosh, I feel like it. [00:11:21] Speaker C: You need a screen for Discord. Come on, guys. [00:11:22] Speaker B: You need a screen for Discord. Apparently so. Anyway, so yeah, there's. And since they've moved out, our power bill has gone down, which I'm really proud to report. Thank you to everyone for joining us today. If you're new here, please, please, please, please jump in the comments and say g'. Day. Let us know where you're from. Always love to hear it. And don't forget, giving this episode of the Camera Life podcast a like helps us out a lot. It lets YouTube know that we're worth sharing, we're worth seeing. And if you are new here, why not subscribe? Doesn't cost you a dime. And if you are subscribing, make sure you hit the bell icon for all notifications so that you'll be notified in real time in your time zone when the Camera Life podcast is on. Next hashim, getting back to you and your story, we like to roll back the clock here a little and find out where that those first Sparks of creativity or even entrepreneurship as a business owner began. Can you recall the time when, you know, you have looked back and said, well, that might be the, you know, the catalyst for when photography became important to me. [00:12:28] Speaker C: The catalyst for doing it as a job or just for enjoying it? [00:12:31] Speaker B: No, just for picking up a camera for the first time or feeling like actually this connects with me. [00:12:36] Speaker C: Actually that would have been way back when I was a teenager because I was always into tech and cameras and weird little gadgets like the old Polaroid, you know, Izone with the little strips. Because I was a teenager in the late 90s, so it was still film. And I used to steal my dad's Nikon, go buy some film from Coles and just ride around the neighborhood pretending I was like a James Bond spy or something and taking random photos. Or I would just take it, you know, to the beach with friends like disposables like you would do. But I wasn't that into it. I didn't actually. It was expensive still as a kid, you know, you didn't have money to buy and develop film all the time, even those little Polaroid cameras. But then when I was in TAFE after I finished school, so for I guess overseas viewers, that's like college. Digital was starting to come in. So that was in the really early 2000s and I was on top of digital cameras, but it was just those really cheap ones, you know, those tiny little plastic ones that you would buy from like back in Perth we had this computer store called Austin Computers or something like that. And I went and bought one of the very first crappy little cheap digital cameras with built in memory. Eventually I bought a Kodak digital camera from Kmart which was just some kind of easy share with the built in zoom. And I just used to again just take photos of flowers, nature, whatever I could find. But I didn't have a skill for it. I don't think at least looking back that I was any good at it. I just enjoyed it. I just enjoyed the magic of taking a photo, looking at it later and having those memories. And then it wasn't until university I think that that spark grew. Another step where I started to think about it artistically because I did a multimedia degree and one of the units every year was photography. And they would, you know, teach us to think in terms of photographic themes and sequences and color and introduced us to Photoshop and all these kind of things. So yeah, that, that was my journey. But I wasn't talented. I wasn't like naturally skilled or gifted or Learnt darkroom or anything like that. [00:14:43] Speaker B: So there was no formal education for you other than doing that subject once a year during your degree? [00:14:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Like, I didn't do it in high school, even at uni. It was just a photography 101 kind of thing. And second year they got us to shoot a little photo series. And yeah, I guess it wasn't until then that I started to learn, so. [00:15:03] Speaker A: But your, your course that was. Was it film, like, and. And with a focus on sound. Did I read that right? [00:15:10] Speaker C: It kind of. It was a Bachelor of Multimedia and I did a second major, it was screen and sound study. So they tried to merge these two similar bachelors where there was overlap in the units, which makes sense. And the screen and sound one was a lot of 3D. Oh, sorry. No, it's more like TV studio stuff and documentary and. Yeah, just a variety of different things. Sound editing and it was quite mixed, to be honest with you. It was jack of all trades kind of thing. [00:15:39] Speaker A: Okay, what did you have a, an idea of when you come out of that, what the plan was? Did you have a plan? [00:15:45] Speaker C: Well, my, my thought was that back then it was, well, I finished uni in, I don't know, 2007 or something, and I was under this pretense that, yeah, you just go to university and you get the degree and then you can get a job because the piece of paper gets you a job into a. What I thought at the time would be like a TV studio and I would be able to operate cameras or like, I don't know, just like start from the bottom and just get my foot store with that piece of paper. And I applied for a bunch of things and never heard back. And then I thought, oh, you know, it's Perth, it's too away from the industry or whatever. And I had a sister living here in Melbourne, which is why I made a visit initially. I really liked it. I had been once before for a snowboarding trip and then I lived with her for a bit and I thought, yeah, there's TV studios in Melbourne. That's where all the channels are and everything. And I'll apply for jobs there. And I, same thing, applied. You need experience and if you don't have the experience, you can't get in. And I just had this like, degree that I thought was useless, but, you know, it wasn't really. I really enjoyed going to university and, and the enjoyment of, you know, experimenting with different subjects and cameras and filming little documentaries and stuff. But, yeah, that was the thought that I had, which doesn't always work out. And we're learning that more these days. I think that, you know, yeah, formal education isn't really necessary if you want to get into photography or film. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's very true. And it's interesting. You know, we often ask that question up front because the diversity of journeys that people have had, initial starting points, has been so incredibly diverse. And, you know, we've had people whose parents were photographers, and so there was just always cameras and they learned, you know, through osmosis and then through their parents and then you got those who had formal education. And. And that's not to say is one that that one is better than the other or one yields better results than the other. I think it's just, fortunately there are multiple journeys now that you can take to become, you know, a creative, whether you paint or not. I'm really interested about your film photography. I know you said that you, you know, you nicked your dad's nick on camera and you'd buy some film and, you know, get them developed at Kmart. I remember going to Kmart with my nan and getting film developed. It was such a buzz when you finally got to pick those up and then you, you know, digital came into your life. Was film always running for you in the background or was it something that you came back to at a later stage? And the reason why I'm asking that is obviously you've got. You've got this pushing film online presence. You've got your Instagram and your YouTube channel, which has, you know, I can't even tell you how many videos. How many has it got? 373 videos. And you've got a huge following. [00:18:28] Speaker A: 70,000 subscribers. [00:18:30] Speaker B: 70,000. That's putting us to shame. So when did. Did film. Was film always there for you or was it something you chose to go back to later? [00:18:39] Speaker C: I would say something I chose to go back to later. But keep in mind, when I was shooting it, initially it was just that. That was the only thing. And then it just seemed, especially when they put us into university, the one I went to had no darkroom, no film courses or anything as far as I knew. It was just everyone was embracing digital during that early 2000s phase. So it just seemed like our film was just. It's gone now. And it wasn't until later that I was exposed to the fact that, hey, you can still get, you know, people are still using film. And I never really studied or knew much about it seriously. I just learned on digital at university and then I was in a retail store and a workmate had some medium format film and I didn't even know about that. All I knew about was 35 mil as a teenager. And I just, I caught the bug at Some point around 201112 where I discovered that there's all these amazing cameras that I never knew about and there's medium format film and that you can still buy a huge variety of them and that the cameras are getting really cheap now because people are getting rid of them because there was that, you know, that golden era of getting cameras pretty cheap. And I could even auto film all the way from B and H here to Melbourne for like five bucks a roll max. Like all the Triax, the portrait, everything was really cheap and they would ship it really fast for a flat rate. It was amazing. Back then we had this like really great window where the dollar was also really good against the American. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:06] Speaker C: So then I just, I fell in love with film. Not necessarily all over again, but almost like it was for the first time because now I knew about photography, I had this background that I discovered film for its full value around that time. And then the channel came later. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the channel was. What's it just over. It'll be 10 years in September. Based on what I could. [00:20:34] Speaker C: That's right, yeah. About it in mid-2016. Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's amazing. And so. So you, you fell in love with film and you had this passion for film, but by then you were already working for yourself as a photographer professional. [00:20:50] Speaker C: I was, I was starting to. Yeah, I was starting to do the second shooting of weddings. I was doing some early corporate gigs and event shoots, sports, whatever I could get my hands on. And I was really liking that. But then I could already feel how shooting on digital was a bit repetitive and at least for me, it was getting a bit uninteresting. And maybe that was because I was doing it for work, but. But yeah, it was around 2016 that a friend and I, I have to give him credit because we used to just go down to his cafe, talk shop about film and just nerd out about it. And we thought, why don't we just start a YouTube channel with no real intention for it to go anywhere? And that's how that happened. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. It's. Do you remember why was it. That was the reason just to. Just to talk, basically to put this excitement you had for film out into the world. That was the only reason, because I did watch the first video you made, which was why you were starting the chann, so be interested to see now if that matches up with why you [00:21:49] Speaker C: were starting the channel. Pretty much, if I remember correctly, it was because we wanted to share our appreciation and. And also because I thought it would be helpful. I thought we appreciated so much what we saw coming out of America at the time with people talking about film, which was, you know, Ted Forbes and Matt Day and some of the channels we used to watch back then, and John Free, kind of not necessarily glorifying film, but giving it its due appreciation. And having worked in the camera store, I experienced a lot of the younger crowd were already getting curious about it and coming in to develop and have problems loading up their cameras and all these kind of things and. Or how to buy a camera or what to look for. And we thought this could be really helpful, putting some information out there, because I was already giving this advice across the counter, Michael's, that I thought, why don't I just put a video and put it out there, like, if no one views it, whatever. And yeah, it was, it was really that we had no strategy. I didn't actually think it would get to this point. I would never have imagined that I'd be doing a channel where I'm getting paid to make videos or getting to borrow amazing gear like the rico, which they just said, yeah, use it for as long as you want and make a video. So, yeah, I'm pretty stoked about it. [00:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah. That's very cool. That's very cool. You can just. You can just ship that down to me when you're done. Yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Second opinion. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Second opinion, of course. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Just make sure. Well, you're. It's exactly right. You're from. I think your most viewed video is how to load film. Unless, like, maybe or something like that, which had like 1.4 million views when I looked the other day. [00:23:29] Speaker C: And that. [00:23:30] Speaker A: That's exactly. [00:23:31] Speaker C: I can't believe it. [00:23:31] Speaker A: It's. It. Yeah, but it's. But that's exactly what you were saying. You people are coming in, probably asking you these questions or. And you've had this experience yourself when. I know I have. When, when film didn't take or whatever and you end up with a blank roll and it's like, it's. It's a useful video. [00:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:49] Speaker A: That it's. You put, you know, someone just needs to put stuff like that out and you decide to do it. I love it. It's awesome. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I think it feels a gap. [00:23:56] Speaker C: Sorry, you go, yeah, yeah, no, no, because I just. I had seen that Experience so much with others because working in that store, you just. So many people come in every day and I like, I was lucky. I never actually had blank rolls, but I would see it happen with everyone coming in to get their film back and the disappointment on their face and it was just like, wow, if I could save a few people from doing that and, and I have to highlight. I was lucky with the timing of that video. That wasn't really a great video. I looked back and I cringe. But it was. I struck while the iron was hot. I guess I didn't really know. But then it kept growing and growing and there's probably way better videos showing you how to load a roll film. But yeah, it was a timing thing. It was. There was a gap in that market of knowledge, I guess. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Of people taking the time to put the knowledge out. [00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:40] Speaker A: On YouTube. Exactly. Like it's. The people with the knowledge were probably busy loading film and just running around taking photos, I'm sure. [00:24:49] Speaker C: And they weren't nerding out on YouTube. They were just doing their job. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Look, you probably. I don't know if you want to say, but what's. So what's that GR monochrome like? Can you give us like an advanced. Like a pre. A pre review? [00:25:06] Speaker C: Sure. [00:25:07] Speaker A: First impressions? [00:25:08] Speaker C: Well, all right. I have like, it's a bit small and fiddly. Like you see in my hands. It's kind of like a soap bar or whatever. I would wish it was like a little bit bigger and it had weather sealing maybe because I know that's the whole appeal of this is that it's pocketable. So yeah, I get that it can actually fit in your jeans pocket. But do you remember the GR2, if anyone watching has used that, it was just a little bit longer, had a better grip and probably still didn't have weather sealing, but at least had a built in flash. They've taken that out. I don't know why I'm starting with the criticisms here. I usually start. But whatever. And it's just a little bit fiddly to use. Right. Like the buttons. And I love manual controls, manual dials and just direct controls. Whereas here I might have to scroll this tiny little dial. And again, it could be a user thing because it's, you know, big hands or whatever. Besides those points, it's amazing like the quality of photos coming out of this damn thing. I'd never shot a monochrome camera before and I was like, you know, why would you want to do that? I get it. But then you lose the capability to shoot color. So maybe it's good if you have a second camera for color. But then I've only been using it for a couple of weeks and I'm pretty amazed out of what's, you know, coming out of this thing. I did post a few photos on Instagram on my personal page recently, so you can look at that. Except I. It was a mixture of shots. I had mixed in some 35mil film shots and even some 120 film shots. But I was kind of doing that on purpose because I was playing with how can these work together as a set. And that's one of the objectives of my video, is to compare this camera to black and white film, which is what I love so much. I have a whole series I'm working on which is all shot on black and white film that I'm hoping to make into a photo book. And I would never quit shooting film, especially black and white. But I want to know how close does it look or does a render, how much can it retain highlights? And all these things that are advantages of a monochrome sensor because it does have that extra dynamic range. It does have a slightly nicer tonality which, yeah, sure, you can probably find other ways around that. But yeah, the ability to pull highlight detail back and to pull detail of the shadows, I. I couldn't believe it. It was. I thought there was a photo that was. Seemed blown out, but it was, yeah, recoverable. And once you grade it and you play around with fits well into a film. Maybe a workflow, not so much workflow, I guess just like if you're working on a series, it looks really nice. But. Yeah, I don't know. It's not for everyone. That's the thing. Like it's black and white only and it's cool that they have the option for it. And then there's the regular gr4, but yeah. Oh yeah, those images on the latest. Is that my. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Oh, is that. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:09] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I. Maybe I didn't post to her. I hasn't refreshed. [00:28:14] Speaker A: How did that happen? Followed all the other accounts, so it's not one of these ones. [00:28:21] Speaker C: What's the last one I posted? Unless I posted it to my other [00:28:24] Speaker A: account three days ago. [00:28:26] Speaker C: No, these are all film. So that's the seat. You know, some of the stuff from work that might go into the series. But. Yeah, yeah, or maybe no, no, no GR stuff. I thought I had posted it. Yeah, I'm sure I had. Maybe it's just not refreshing on that page or something. Or I put on pushing film by accident. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Unless I had this sitting up. I might have had this sitting up here from the other day. There it is. [00:28:49] Speaker C: Oh, there you go. Yeah. So that first shot. Okay, that's from the gr, mind you. I did play around a little bit in lightroom. Not too much, mainly adding a bit of grain, which, again, see how well it matches to film. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, most of these are from the GR. That one is from the Mamiya 6. I think that's a square shot. So that one's from the gr. And the majority of these would be. So if they're not square, they're probably from the GR. That one is. This one's actually 35 mil film. So. Yeah, you. Yeah, that's the thing. So that's what I was trying to play with and experiment with. And I kind of use Instagram as a little bit of a magnet board just to play with photos and look back at them and see what works. And then I try and save all my favorites for the book I'm working on, for example, and other work. But actually, if you scroll to this shot here, it seemed like the highlights were blown out. And although I kind of boosted the contrast and I let them look like really hot highlights, if I wanted to, I could pull those highlights way back. You could see the detail in her skin and everything. So. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Really? [00:30:02] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the biggest thing that's standing out to me about, I guess, not only this camera, but about monochrome sensors, because I hadn't ever experienced that before. [00:30:10] Speaker B: And, yeah, we've been talking about it. [00:30:12] Speaker C: I kind of get it. You have? [00:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah, we talked about it a lot on the show, particularly around, you know, some of the. The Leica monochrome models. Justin has a Q3, and obviously Leica now has a. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Not a monochrome, though. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Not a mono. Full color. But, you know, it's interesting that. That, yes, it's a limitation, but sometimes a limitation is exactly what we need for creativity to, you know, to really survive, because it pens us into working with what we have as opposed to having access to everything. You know, we can really hone in on that particular style. We talked earlier about, you know, having eggs in different baskets. Where do you see, you know, looking at all the work you do, what sort of percentage did you do? You see, falls into, say, your wedding and family work, your documentary work, your, you know, your YouTube stuff. Where do those percentages sit for you, on average? [00:31:12] Speaker C: It's always evolving, and from year to year, it seems to lean a little bit more towards YouTube because I am experimenting with transitioning more towards that and seeing how viable that is, at least for me, while also balancing, you know, personal life and work life balance and, and this photographic projects and whatever. So. And then within that, it's also seasonal, like I mentioned with weddings. So I was shooting a wedding almost every week in the early part of the year, and then now it's like it's kind of dried up and I don't really chase them because I guess I just go with the flow of things. And I've picked up more projects. For YouTube, for example, I'm doing like, I think six to seven videos that I've written up on my little whiteboard that I have to get through over the next month and a half before I take a little break. And then I've kind of lined up some other stuff for August and September already. So at the moment I would say the balance is like 80% YouTube stuff. But in the beginning of the year it was. It was the other way around maybe. So trying to find that balance when, when you. [00:32:24] Speaker A: So do you come up with ideas for videos and then try and reach out to a sponsor or something like that? Or do they approach you? Or is it a bit of both? [00:32:34] Speaker C: The majority of the time I'm actually reaching out to them or starting conversations because a lot of the ones, at least, that have brands have reached out to me. Actually, I shouldn't say that because it's also shifted. Recently I've had brands that have reached out to me where I have had interest. But yeah, a lot of time it's like stuff that I'm not even talking about on the channel. It's not even relevant or I'm just not into it. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Be like some wireless mics from a brand you've never heard from or something like that. And you're like, this isn't really what. Pushing films. [00:33:02] Speaker C: You'd be surprised. I've had like stuff for like E bikes and pool cleaners and like fashion. Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense. But I mean, that's probably just some bot going through a bunch of YouTube channels. But even within photography, it's, it's, it's great. And I'm thankful that I have even like, you know, known brands that make good lighting gear and stuff. But it got to a point where I couldn't say yes to everything. Like every LED light that comes out or flash or something like that, because I do enjoy doing those every now and then. But it gets unsustainable and the ones I enjoy doing the most are the ones where I've reached out to the brand. So even with the Nikon zf, which was one of my favorite things that I've tried in the last few years, I reached out to them and said, hey, this camera looks amazing. Can I borrow one for a review? There wasn't any payment, I just got to use it. But that video did really well because I was comparing it to film, giving my own take on it and yeah, and then that led to other opportunities with them where there was some, you know, exchange or something like that later on and they even wanted to do a workshop with me, although it was canceled unfortunately because of internal reasons and timing stuff. But yeah, it is really nice, I think, to not just wait for opportunities to come to you if you're doing something like YouTube or a podcast or whatever it might be. Because, yeah, if you don't reach out sometimes you'll never get that opportunity. And it was the same with a lot of other brands, whether it was Fuji and other brands I've worked with. But yeah, there have been some really cool projects where I've just been sitting there and an email pops up and they say, hey, we have this new lens or something. And I go, for example, Light Lens Lab. I was aware of them, but I didn't really know much. And then it was only through initially chatting to one of the reps, a really nice guy who was actually on my Discord server. And then he also sent an email and then that led to me gaining a bit more awareness about their brand. And then I did the, the review on one of their lenses. First time I'd worked with them. And yeah, that was really fun. And that was just one of those exchange projects. You keep the lens, you do a review and actually really, yeah, they, they [00:35:08] Speaker B: did that with me too because I still write reviews for a couple of sites. I still write reviews for Lucky Straps, but they like Lens Lab. They sent out two lenses to me for Fuji X mount. They all manual focus, beautiful lenses like, like a quality build and you know what they're like. And yeah, it was the keep the lenses in exchange for the article, which I thought was really generous because there's no way I would charge them because those lenses were about a thousand bucks each retail. You know, there's no way that I would get that sort of money from a paid article. But having the lenses was, was great. I love brands do that sometimes, don't get me wrong, I still need to pay the bills, but sometimes A bit like Christmas. [00:35:46] Speaker C: Yeah. You have to pick and choose as well because you can't say yes to every one of those projects. And in the earlier days, I kind of would because just end up with, [00:35:54] Speaker A: like, cupboards full of lenses. [00:35:57] Speaker C: Well, it wasn't. When you're starting off, you're probably not getting offered light lens, lab lenses. It's just like you said earlier, camera bags and stuff like that. But even then, you're kind of. If you're starting off like, you're pretty stoked to get an email from a brand, even if it's like, I remember having Lomography reach out and saying, hey, do you want to try Berlin Keynote Film? And there's no payment. You just get to keep a couple of rolls of film. And the amount of time I spent making that video was like three or four days worth of my week and. And like developing costs and all that stuff. And. And still I enjoyed it because I might have done that video anyway. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:27] Speaker C: Like, it's something I would have been out shooting anyway. And yeah, it was. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:31] Speaker C: But it gets harder with time. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Just quickly. Speaking of sponsors, today's podcast is actually brought to you by Lucky Camera Straps, which is us. So if you need a beautiful leather camera strap for any of your cameras, be them film or digital, whatever you like, even a Fuji, well, they even fit Fujis. You can go to www.luckystraps.com. that's. And use code Greg if you want a discount, or use code Justin if you want a better discount. [00:37:00] Speaker B: And it's not better. It's not, is it? [00:37:03] Speaker A: It's the same. Yeah, but it feels better. [00:37:05] Speaker C: It feels better to type it in. Right? [00:37:07] Speaker A: It's a shorter. [00:37:09] Speaker C: Let me tell you guys something actually about Lucky Straps. I don't know if you ever visited Michael's back in the day, but when I worked there, when I started working, there was 20, 14, 15. So I don't know when you started the brand, but we used to sell them and I remember thinking, oh, wow. Yeah, these were made in Australia and I used to recommend them especially. Film shooters would love them because they suited the aesthetic and. Yeah, yeah. So it's cool to come full circle and meet you guys now. Thank you. Did you both start the brand? Does anyone ask about you guys? What's your. Give me your nutshell backstory? [00:37:40] Speaker A: No, no one does, actually. I started it. [00:37:45] Speaker B: I feel so sane. I feel so sane right now. [00:37:47] Speaker A: You feel so glad you're right here. [00:37:49] Speaker C: Great. [00:37:51] Speaker A: I started it in 20. Well, 13, but end up didn't launch until 2014 and it was just an online store at that stage. And then at some point, I can't even remember what year, I think I got connected with somehow or they approached me. Blonde Robot. Who Distributor in Melbourne. Yeah. And at the time they were quite small. They did peak design, they were doing GoPro at the time and then a few other things. And then since then they've grown quite big and into video and they do Tamron and yeah, it's like it's just gotten bigger and bigger. But they approached us and they were going to help us put the straps into stores around Australia and they did. I think we end up in 22 stores, including Michael's. Michael's is really cool. The first time I got to walk in there and see our straps in there, I was like, this is cool. Because it just didn't seem like we should be in a store that prestigious, you know, like that bit that you walk through all the brands and they had every model of every camera and every lens basically that you could think of. I used to go in there and just dream about the lighting. Because at the same time that I started Lucky Straps, I also started a wedding photography business. So I essentially built both of them up while I was working full time. And then once I had enough weddings booked, I quit the full time job in like when did I quit? Maybe November. So I like shot the first four or five weddings of the season and had like an editing backlog built up and then quit my full time job that same year. Yeah, so that would have been. Oh yeah, 20 end of 2014 I think. [00:39:37] Speaker C: It's amazing. [00:39:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So shot my first wedding in 2013. That sounds about right. [00:39:45] Speaker C: Yes. I probably shot my first wedding around the same year actually, or maybe a couple years after. But not much has changed. [00:39:54] Speaker B: I remember, I remember going into Michael's. It used to be the ultimate camera store because they had huge amount of pre owned gear for sale. You know, there were several counters and there was an independent space for Fujifilm which I was obsessed with. Still am. And I remember going into the store and then you go upstairs and there was the museum as well as the service center and some of the bigger lighting gear and bigger bags were kept upstairs. Stairs. [00:40:19] Speaker A: Yeah, and. And I remember the cool spot. I was intimidated to go up there. [00:40:25] Speaker B: Oh, that was, that was the. [00:40:26] Speaker C: No, it was like the dungeon. It was like little. It was like a cave with no windows and yeah, it was just like you're hidden away. No one even knew we were up there. We do passport photos and taking Cameras for repair. [00:40:39] Speaker A: That's right. I always. I never made it up there cuz I got stuck in the bag section. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, But I remember behind where they had the film lab, the big processor, there was like a service counter and there was like one of the windows and you guys would throw the empty film canisters into that window and it sort of just slowly built up over time. It was all these 35 mil films. [00:41:02] Speaker C: Yep. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it was really cool. That was. Fascinated me. [00:41:07] Speaker C: But have you always been in Melbourne, Greg, or have you. Yeah, as well? [00:41:12] Speaker B: No, I grew up in Melbourne. I avoid Bendigo at all costs. [00:41:16] Speaker A: That's not true. [00:41:18] Speaker B: It is true at all costs, but no. I started film photography in art school. So I came out of year 12, went into art school for a year and leaned very heavily into film photography. They had a dark room. A friend and I created like built a dark room at his house and we shot film for a few years and then, you know, family responsibility. And so I put down doing anything sort of artistic and just documented the family and the kids. And then in 20, it was about 2013, 2014, I picked up digital and you know, mostly stuck with street photography, which I still shoot, and then started doing some travel stuff. You know, shot friends, weddings, parties, anything. And. And that's kind of where I am. And then I met Justin. I think the first time I spoke to you, Jay, we were. You'd sent me lucky straps, like a media kit with some straps and a T shirt and some stickers and all that sort of stuff. And that was for one of my first reviews I ever wrote for ShotKit.com and we. Sort of. [00:42:21] Speaker A: One of your first reviews? [00:42:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a really early one. [00:42:23] Speaker A: I was getting a senior reviewer. I didn't realize I was getting a. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Till you make it. [00:42:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah, okay, [00:42:31] Speaker C: you did. So you've been writing for a long time then. That's. That's pretty cool. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been doing a lot of writing. It slowed down, especially with the advent of AI, but yeah, I do. I still write for Lucky Straps regularly putting out articles, which is amazing. And then Justin and I caught up again some years later. I think it was during COVID You wanted some blogs for your website. So me and another guy were writing for Then and Then. Yeah, we just sort of kept in touch and started doing some bits and pieces and. And here we are today doing. Doing the camera. I think the last, the most recent time that Justin and I sort of got into collaboration again was reaching out to camera clubs to promote Lucky straps and I'd go to the clubs and. Or send them gear and you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of my story. [00:43:18] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm really glad you guys reached because I wasn't really familiar with your show and then I checked it out and I've seen how. How great the show is and admittedly I haven't seen many episodes yet. I haven't had time to. To watch. I saw you had Dick Carver and some other like, cool guests and I thought, wow. [00:43:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker C: How did I not know? [00:43:36] Speaker A: Look at you. [00:43:37] Speaker B: You're a cool guest too now. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Now you're gonna send you a T shirt. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Cool guest. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Camera Life. [00:43:43] Speaker C: Please do. And Greg, it was cool to actually meet you at the. Thanks for coming to that little exhibition and saying hi there because I know you'd emailed me about this and I was. [00:43:54] Speaker B: You ignored me busy. [00:43:55] Speaker C: So I, I did ignore for a bit too long. Yeah. But no, I was really psyched the whole time to. To line this up and to have a little chat to you at. What was the place called? Revolver. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Revolver. Revolting, I call it, but Revolver. Yes. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah. For. Yeah, the exhibition that Nathan put on or. [00:44:14] Speaker C: Yes, Nathan. [00:44:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That was a fun night. Yeah, very cool. [00:44:20] Speaker A: I'll just read out a couple of comments in the chat. You've got a fan from far, far away, David Mascaro. Good to see you. Long time. I see. He says, hey, guys. I haven't watched live for a while, took a social media break, but I saw Hashem was going to be on and I've been a fan of his show for a while, so here I be. Well, it's good to see you, David. We've all missed. David is a. A weapon of a street photographer in San Francisco and he often sends photos in on Monday nights. You can send photos into the show and we'll bring him up on our Monday night show when we don't usually have like a guest on. And he sends in these street portraits from San Francisco that are either shot. All shot on Nikon, but they're either shot on film or some digital stuff and just. Yeah, amazing. [00:45:06] Speaker C: I'm sure you get a lot of amazing characters out there and yeah, good move on the social media break. I think that's good to do every now and then if you can. If your work doesn't involve social media, [00:45:16] Speaker A: it does make it trickier. [00:45:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:18] Speaker B: But no, it's interesting that because I can. I can take a break from my personal social Social media stuff, you know, and just focus on the camera life stuff. [00:45:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:27] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's interesting. I've been more. Especially with the. The geopolitical state of the world at the moment and everything that's going on. I'm finding social media to be such a dragon, you know, there's just so [00:45:40] Speaker C: much bad news cracked you into a negative headspace. [00:45:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it really does, you know, and you're constantly questioning what is real and when was this from? You know, like, you'll get something that looks like a breaking news announcement. You'll check it. It's from April, you know, instead of today. And. And. [00:45:57] Speaker C: And it's designed to do that to keep you coming back and to get sucked in and to feel the same. Yeah. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Look for all this stuff. [00:46:03] Speaker C: That's what brings you back. It's quite unfortunate because you also want to stay updated. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:07] Speaker C: And yeah, if you think about it. Yeah. You don't need to check the news every single day. If something is that important, you'll find out about it sooner or later. But I get it, you know, it's hard. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. It is hard to put it down. [00:46:19] Speaker A: If you pepper your algorithm on YouTube enough, just with just the right salt and pepper, the worst controversy you're going to see is like insta360 Luna versus Osmo pocket 4p. It's not, you know, it's. It's my controversies in my algorithm. They're no problem. Really. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Yeah. You do have to keep driving it. [00:46:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:41] Speaker A: You just got to keep clicking on camera videos and eventually it's all you see. [00:46:46] Speaker C: Yeah. That's kind of what I have now on my Instagram. Like, it's pretty good. It shows me mostly what it, you know, thinks I would like. It's not always correct, but it's mostly camera stuff or, you know, nerd things. [00:46:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:59] Speaker A: But, yeah, every now and then, if you accidentally click on the Explore page, you see stuff that you're like, is who actually looks at this? Like, who are these posts for? Because they're not for me. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:11] Speaker C: Or something like that. [00:47:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:13] Speaker B: If I'm out with people and we're talking and say, oh, you know, look. Look it up on Instagram. I feel so scared opening my Instagram because sometimes that training just falls off and it just sends you what it thinks you need for your gender and your age group, you know. [00:47:26] Speaker A: Sure, Greg. Sometimes a lot of skin. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Hey, I'm being open and vulnerable here. I'm not. [00:47:32] Speaker C: This is true, though, whatever that is. Look at your demographics and. And you know. [00:47:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And it just suggests things. Yeah. Trying to. Trying to get you excited. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah, Quite literally. [00:47:43] Speaker A: Previous, previous guest, Richard Grenfell. How you doing? Richard says, tell Hashem I became 37.8% cooler because I came on this show. I sucked until that moment. Well, yeah. [00:47:54] Speaker C: Why not 37 Richard. [00:47:56] Speaker B: That's right. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Yeah. We need to pump that number up. Paul says Justin, looks like shot kid assigned you the intern, but appears to have worked out for the best. Yeah, it did. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Thanks perfectly. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Who else has been. There's a few other people in the chat. Me and Muse is going to check out your work. Yeah. Make sure you go to YouTube. There's just a plethora of great videos, including my favorite type of video which are, you know, going out on the street, shooting just POV style and then seeing the images come up. That's my favorite type of YouTube video. Yeah. And there's tons of those. Who else? And also me and you. Sorry to hear about your uncle. That's sad. J.C. orange, good to see you. Lisa Leach says the image of the lady shading of her eyes from the light has a Vivian Myers self portrait quality. That's fine. The blown out. The blown out. [00:48:49] Speaker C: Thanks. Actually, someone else commented that just this morning and I never thought I realized after that that like. Oh yeah, you know, because of the. My shadow was in the photo. But full disclosure, I didn't even intend to have my self portrait kind of show up in there. It was just that I wanted it to be front lit and. [00:49:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:07] Speaker C: Yeah. It's really amazing to hear feedback like that and nice to think. To think about things that you didn't even notice initially when you. When you snap the shot. [00:49:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Who else is on here? Phil Thompson. Good to see you. And Rodney Nicholson says Michaels was a wonderful institution. Loved the second hand windows. History behind the glass. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:31] Speaker A: And the surf is flat. Lucinda, he said because Lucinda was worried that the surf would be going crazy down where he is in Wa. [00:49:40] Speaker B: No Point, Longstown. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Point line. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Oh, Richard Grenfell got the Insta360 Luna for behind the scenes in the studio. You know the cool thing about that Luna. Otherwise I was like, ah, it's kind of just a copy of dji and they just sort of. Well, at a race to get the dual lenses and stuff. But the cool thing is it's got the detachable remote which we were saying. How come? No, like the remote. Have you seen that, that thing Hashim, that's like got a detachable screen. [00:50:11] Speaker C: No, not up to date. I Never heard of this. Luna. I know the insta360go. One of the previous ones. The little white one. Yeah. [00:50:17] Speaker A: No, so it's like, it's like a copy. You know the Osmo pocket, The little mini gimbal thing. Yeah, you know those ones. It's like one of those. But it, it's, it's a dual lens, so it's got the normal lens and then a telephoto like three by or whatever it is. [00:50:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:30] Speaker B: So. [00:50:31] Speaker A: So sort of like a drone would have two, two different cameras. But what's cool is they've, they've put a detachable screen and couple of buttons. Little thing on it. So, so you can actually take the screen off and frame the shot from a different spot. And like we've had remote monitors and stuff. Possible. But it's just, it's cool to see stuff like that. And it bugs me that in our, I guess, mid to pro range cameras, they just don't take any risks like that when it comes to ergonomics and usability and things like the thought of just having the screen be able to be fully detached and operate as a remote, like no one's even considered that. They tilt in all directions and do all that sort of stuff, but just letting it just, just come off. And this thing as well. You'll see people on YouTube soon, I'm sure. It's got a microphone built into it. So people, I've seen people, they just basically frame themselves up in the shot and then just start talking to this little detachable screen because it's got a microphone built into it. It's like. Yeah, it's, it's very interesting. [00:51:38] Speaker B: That's crazy. [00:51:39] Speaker C: Yeah, that is crazy. I wonder how long the, how big can the battery be in a little detachable screen? That's again, I start to think, I [00:51:46] Speaker A: didn't even think about that. Yeah. Because the screen would chew up a lot of the, the battery power, wouldn't it? [00:51:51] Speaker C: I mean even if it's limited to say 20 minutes, that's probably enough to do a take. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:56] Speaker C: Of something. [00:51:56] Speaker A: And I think it's, I think it's got about a 20 meter range range. It's not like, not the same as like a wireless mic or something, but still close enough to be, to be in the shot. [00:52:07] Speaker C: Yeah, that is pretty cool. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:52:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:10] Speaker C: And it's just that thing you mentioned about a mirrorless camera having that. Why not? Because if it's there charging on the body, you don't have a ribbon cable to snap. Maybe you could dismount it and put it on the, the hot shoe as a, you know, a top mounted monitor. [00:52:24] Speaker A: I didn't even think about that. Quickly just go onto the hot shoe [00:52:28] Speaker C: magnetic or something quick write it down. Because you know, you're right sometimes they don't take risks. But if you saw the Nikon ZR because I got to borrow that for a video as well and they took that risk of putting a massive screen on there and people loved it. Like why aren't all cameras like this? And I could see little things, you know, like that don't always work out for everyone. But for example the X Pro with the screen that goes downwards three or whatever it was that was then it's, it's good to take risks sometimes because then it might lead to other ideas or it might be certain users who do appreciate that feature. [00:53:00] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's what bugs me and I understand why they don't take risks because there's a lot of money at stake and stuff. But just when you, when you just see camera after camera coming out that are all very, very similar just with slightly different specs in terms of sensors and stuff like that, it's really. And you would be one of the best people to, to dig into. This is compared to what you see in the, in the wide range of the film world of different styles of bodies and how cameras worked and all that sort of stuff. Even though they were all just exposing onto the same, exactly the same roll of film. If you're talking 35 mil, there was still so many different ways of designing the camera body. Whereas now it seems like they kind of really just stay in their lane once they have a body and an ergonomics established. Yeah, I don't know. Bugs me. [00:53:57] Speaker C: Well, an interesting case in point here is something I was actually quite wrong about. I thought it would do really well when I first heard about it. The Fuji X half. What did you guys think about that thing? [00:54:06] Speaker A: Oh, let's talk about it, let's talk [00:54:08] Speaker C: about that because I saw that, I thought hey this is going to take off with the younger crowd. Like it's going to, you know, sell like hotcakes. [00:54:14] Speaker B: I don't think it has to some degree. I, I reviewed it when I got a pre production copy and I reviewed it for shot kit, pretty sure it was shot kit and I thought it was a clever idea, clever piece of industrial design. Absolutely poor photography camera. [00:54:31] Speaker C: Right. [00:54:31] Speaker A: You know, for the price and I think that's yes and no. [00:54:37] Speaker B: The image quality is pretty crap. You know, my Little Kodak Chimera camera almost took better photos. [00:54:43] Speaker C: Those are terrible. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Those are terrible. [00:54:48] Speaker C: They look amazing. But the photos coming out of them. Oh my God. [00:54:51] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, you know that I'm a Fuji shooter and we have a friend in common, Neil, from Fujifilm, who also recommended you for today's podcast. [00:54:59] Speaker C: Neil Pash. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And yeah, he's kind of a secret. He's kind of a secret agent for me. He shoots me all the good people that he hears about through work, which I love. So thank you. Don't ever give that up. But yeah, they sent it out and look, like I said, I thought it was a clever concept. It felt a bit, a bit dinky, but I thought it was brave. I thought it was at least trying something different. You know, we had the Pentax 17, what was that, like 18 months, two years ago now? That was a half frame digital, no [00:55:28] Speaker A: half frame, no film. [00:55:30] Speaker B: Half frame film camera as well. And that was really brave. And I know a lot of people kind of knocked it. Lots of people liked it. But I like when camera companies take those brave steps like what we were talking about, like removable monitor. Why not, you know, why not have the ability or even just the ability to simply unclick your monitor connected to your hot shoe with a, with a cord even. It doesn't even have to be wireless, like just something creative and we don't, we don't see it. But yeah, the, the X half, it was priced completely wrong. [00:56:03] Speaker A: Yeah, what was it? It launched at 1250, 1300 US or something. Yeah, yeah. And now they're for sale for 799 in some places. 700 at the moment. [00:56:16] Speaker C: I've never seen anyone using one on the street. That's why I kind of assume like, oh, what I thought what happened to that camera? Because when I first I did a little bit livestream about the launch, because you're right, it's a completely brave move. And even if it's not a financial success, it could be some success leading to another idea or something like that. [00:56:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:56:32] Speaker C: Or could be just in certain markets like Japan, which I know was a big target audience for that. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of Asia and a lot of young people are taking up cameras like the X half. But more importantly, compact, point and shoots, smaller bodies, APS C size sensors, those sorts of stuff are really popular in Asia at the moment. You know, the demand for point and shoot is why we're seeing more brands kind of leaning back into that, getting little cameras out. [00:57:02] Speaker C: So yeah, it's A longevity thing as well that you can't always predict because something like the Pentax 17 could keep going full circle as long as film's available. And it's an amazing camera. And I think even if it was a risk and didn't succeed as much financially as they would have liked, I think as a camera, it was a great success. Yeah. Whether or not that leads to something else. We saw the, you know, the Pentax film project kind of died off for whatever other reasons. Maybe the Fuji was a success in. In some ways, the next half anyway. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Tell us about your experience with it. [00:57:34] Speaker C: Everyone's holding with the X half. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:57:39] Speaker C: I'd never used one. Oh, you haven't shot one? No, I never shot one. I never seen. [00:57:42] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:57:43] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I only spoke about it, like, initially when it was getting hyped up and being launched and talked about and there was this, you know, big reveal and it was exciting, I guess the way they did the launch was exciting. But then there was these features that they revealed that people were like, oh, why this? With the flash and the JPEG thing, whatever. It might have been a few different little features that I think if they had approached differently, maybe it could have been a little bit more successful. [00:58:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:09] Speaker C: But I don't know. [00:58:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I think Greg's right. It's that the image quality for the price, the way we saw it, the way I see it, is if someone's going to invest money in a camera that's not their phone. Obviously this hit the right touch points when it was like, it needs to be seamless in terms of the way it integrates with your phone for this kind of product. Like, people need to be able to see their photos straight away if they want to, and all that sort of stuff needs to work easily. But the image quality arguably was not a step up from a phone, from an iPhone, 17 Pro Max or whatever. So then you. Then you run into this issue of, like, why did I buy this? And. And I understand there are benefits. My partner, Yelena wanted a camera to be able to take photos just when she's hanging out with people and stuff without having her phone out. You know, she just wanted a camera. But we ended up, like, getting the OM system TG7 tough camera, which probably has similar image quality to this. Obviously that, you know, might not be quite as good or, I don't know, it would be negligible, I think, in the difference. But it's got a zoom lens which doesn't go in and out of the body at all it's waterproof to 15 meters but we took it to 20 and it's you know like it's, it's a tough camera and it retails for like 650 bucks and it's like, I think they, whereas if this had just had a slight step up in image quality or ideally if it had been the camera that, that we'd love to see as photographers, which would be like, you know, a 1500-1800 dollar camera that has really good point and shoot image quality. You know, maybe something that's maybe not quite as good as the Ricoh gr but like heading in that direction where it's like hey, a photographer loves this thing and it had the body design of the xrf then it might have been a hit, I don't know. [01:00:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a great looking camera. Maybe they just lean too hard into the simulated film experience type of thing with the film sims and. [01:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think just like a 2.8 lens on a smaller sensor, like there was no depth of field ability really in it and stuff like that. And I think, I think newer photographers that want to get their first camera weren't seeing, you know, when you slap a nifty 50 on a crop sensor camera or something, you take a photo of someone, you're like wow, I'm a photographer now. This thing looks, you know, you shoot at 1.8 and you're like wow, this looks professional, you know. Yeah, like there was, there's no ability for that in this camera whereas you can even get that on a phone with the portrait modes and stuff. So I don't know, I, I, I'm not 100 sure what was what it didn't hit on. I know in my hand even though it was quite small, it felt cool to hold. It felt like a quality camera. It certainly didn't feel cheap in terms of its construction or anything like that. So I'm not sure. I also think the, I don't like the fact that it's called a half frame. When wouldn't a half frame just be a crop sensor like a APS C? Isn't that half frame half of a digital. [01:01:22] Speaker C: Well, I don't know if you can even use that expression outside of film. It doesn't really make sense because it's. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:01:29] Speaker C: It's only really applicable to the fact that It's a full 35 mil frame that you're putting in half or whatever. [01:01:34] Speaker A: In half? [01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that that came from that nostalgia farming and the, the original Fujika half frames which were very similar, looked fairly similar. You can see the, you can see the, the lineage between Fujik old Fujikas and this new half frame. But yeah, look, and like I said, and like you put that, hopefully something comes from it that they'll learn from that process. You know, they've been doing this stuff for 90, 90 plus years, 91 years this year. And yeah, they're going to have Mrs. Along the way, of course. Yeah. [01:02:09] Speaker C: Cool move to try it. [01:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I don't want to spend the entire rest of the podcast talking about gear, but I do have a lot of notes written down about gear, so sorry. We will talk about photography as well and film and all sorts of other stuff and I also want to ask you about Adobe alternatives because I'm interested to know your thoughts on that. But while we're talking about Fuji cameras, you reviewed the X Pro 3. Everyone can go and check out that review if they're interested. What I want to know is what do you, what would you like to see in an X Pro 4 that has been hopefully in the works for, I don't know, 11,000 years now and should be, should be coming out sometime soon? [01:02:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I emailed like Neil about that saying hey, as soon as any info on the Expo 4, let me know. And he's like, yeah, you'll be the first one to find out. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Oh really? He told me I'd be the first one. He's playing us. He's playing us. [01:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah. What do you got? Fuji rumors. Were they wrong? A few times. I don't know actually I thought the X Pro 3 was pretty cool. I remember the thing that I think was a sticking point for me because I come from shooting full frame and it wasn't because I think APS C sensors are bad. I just like adapting lenses, right. So if I was adapting my Leica M lenses, they were changing to a different focal length and the, the zone focusing didn't match up quite as well. Like where I would have you memorize the different zones on the lens and the focus scale even just literally wouldn't line up correctly. So of course I'd like to say a full frame version, but I know that's not going to happen. It's not by nature of a full frame company, they don't do that. Maybe taking some of the things that worked well in, in their later APS C X series and I guess, yeah, just the logical updates. But I don't know, it's been so far since I've used that camera that I can't now remember things that I thought, hey, this would be great in an Expo 4. Although at the time I probably did take those notes because I'm one of the people actually thought, I like that screen. The little, the way that screen operated, at least as a street photographer or someone who didn't really use that camera for video or selfies or whatever, I didn't mind it. And it had that ability to kind of help you avoid chimping if you didn't have the self control, you know, to just do it yourself. [01:04:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I think if they could, if they could make that screen flip instead of just fold down like the articulating style thing. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:04:47] Speaker A: No, it's a tree. [01:04:49] Speaker B: No, I don't want it to go [01:04:50] Speaker A: out to the side though. I want it to be something. [01:04:52] Speaker B: No, no, no, it doesn't go to the side. It flips up. It flips down to about 45 and you can, you can flip it out on the left hand axis. So when you're shooting portrait. I think it's a left hand. No, maybe it's the right hand axis. You can shoot portrait low and the screen will face up at you, but it's still in line with the body. [01:05:10] Speaker A: No, but can you flip it so the screen is completely over and, and locked away on the X T5? [01:05:17] Speaker B: No. [01:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So that's what I mean. And I don't hide the screen physically. Pop. [01:05:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:22] Speaker A: To hide the screen and still have that cool display on the back. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Think. [01:05:25] Speaker C: Did you guys like that little display? The little film I did thingy? [01:05:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought it looked cool, but [01:05:31] Speaker C: there's a minimal amount of options that you could have showing like shutter speed, whatever. That. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:37] Speaker C: Reminds me of shooting film in a way. Like on those 90s electronic cameras. [01:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I saw you. You said you had it set to the display of your settings rather than the, the like the simulation. [01:05:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean that looks cool, but no, I prefer the actual. Yeah, the few little settings. [01:05:53] Speaker A: Well, that was the thing on the X half that I actually thought was cool. I don't know, I didn't actually get a chance to play with it because I think you could swipe it. But the X half had like a tiny one that showed the film and, and you could swipe it, I think to change film sims. Or am I imagining that? [01:06:10] Speaker B: No, I think you're right. There was something around that where you could use touch sensitive controls to start things off. [01:06:16] Speaker A: And it's stuff like that. That's why I hate hating on the X half because it's stuff like that, that. I wish more manufacturers would take risks on those. Kind of like. Yeah, let's put a display over here that just shows this one thing or something that's more dedicated. I like that. I think that's cool. [01:06:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And they do that with the XH models. You've got a sub monitor and some of the gfx. [01:06:40] Speaker A: Oh yeah, on the top. Yes. [01:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah, on the top you've got that like with a lot of pro bodies. Let's stick with the game, the gear talk and the nerding out over gear while we're here. We've landed. Let's explore. So let's start with your film, with pushing film and your love of film photography. What's. What sort of cameras and lenses are you running around with at the moment? [01:07:04] Speaker C: My main camera is my Leica Ma and that's something I've been using since 2020. And even before that it was an M4, which was almost the same thing really. It just. I had a chance to do a flip, I guess for a good price. And I wanted the 28 mil frame lines. I was starting to shoot that more and I thought, yeah, this is a good opportunity to flip that camera. And they hold their value, which is great. It's actually gone up in value now and I've been loving using it. I've had no desire to change that as my main 35 mil camera, my main travel camera, my main personal work camera. But for paid work, I'm of course I'm using digital. So I'll be using what has until now been my Canon systems, which is the R6 and the 5D Mark IV, which I will dual wield for weddings and stuff like that. But in the last couple of months I have been playing with the Lumix S1 2, which I've been loving so far. And that has been more of a hybrid workhorse for, for YouTube and, and more video centric stuff. But I can imagine it being great as a photography camera as well. But as you guys would know, changing systems entirely, especially when you're invested in all the lenses, it's not something you can do suddenly. I mean, unless you have the money to blow and like just buy all the glass all over again. I would have to do that gradually if I was to ever do that. But yeah, I have a lot of cameras. I have too many cameras and yeah, but there's still only a couple that I use most of the time. So my Leica Ma and then for 120 film, my Pentax 645N. And I like testing and playing with different gear all the time. I am borrowing a Mamiya 6 from a friend, which I was going to say earlier actually, that had a lucky strap outfitted on it. Really? Yeah, yeah. It was in my. One of my last pushing film Instagram posts that I showed the camera just sitting on my desk with a roll of Lucky 200 film. And I thought that was funny because it's a lucky strap and. Yeah, yeah, that's hilarious. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah, I see. [01:09:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I have an F2 other cameras I can reach to. But yeah, there's mostly the ones I mentioned that I use most of the time. [01:09:12] Speaker B: And what's your favorite focal length for film? [01:09:15] Speaker C: 35mil, probably. And it's not because it's for film, it's just what I used most of the time for general purpose for street and travel. And if I was to have one lens on the camera, even for shooting stuff around the house, If I'm doing YouTube, for example, like B roll, it's just a good middle ground where I don't have to change back and forth. And especially if it's an F 1.8 or something like that. [01:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:39] Speaker C: So even, even with Digital, I like 35 mil. [01:09:43] Speaker A: Shoot 28 a little bit though. [01:09:45] Speaker C: 28 mil. I do shoot 28 too. So especially for street photography, I will. It's so the way I approach that is if I'm shooting somewhere where it's busy or I'm getting in and close, I will have the 28 mil lens on there. But if I just want something that's ready for whatever, I'll have 35 mil. Especially if it's not a busy environment where a lot of people and I want a little bit more versatility where I might take the occasional portrait, whatever it is. Yeah, so I'm a bit indecisive like that. But Those are the two main lenses I use for travel and street. [01:10:20] Speaker B: Nice. 35 full frame equivalents. I. I like to refer to it as the Goldilocks focal range because it's my go to for street and travel, but I also use that for a whole bunch of other stuff. It's just, it's just got that nice sweet spot. It's very versatile, which, you know, people [01:10:38] Speaker C: can argue that that gets boring. And sure, I think there's a saying it's like normal lens, normal photos, whatever it is, which I don't completely agree with, but I get the, the sentiment behind it where if you don't take risks or you don't try like a Wider lens or a longer lens, which I. I love to do. Every now and then I'll just sometimes change it up and put a 75 mil lens and go hit the streets and do that. Or even a 135 I once tried on the. On the Leica or 21 mil, whatever it could be. Just change it up every now and then. I think that's important as well. Even if you have a favorite focal length. [01:11:10] Speaker A: I agree it can be a fun, fun experiment and different way to see things. But yeah, I'm on the opposite. I. I've shot with 35, and I can shoot with 35, but it's not for me. It's my. It's. It's the Goldilocks in the bad way. It's like I either want 28 where I feel a little bit more like I'm. I'm more in the scene, pulled in a little bit more, or I want to be 50, where I can get. I can take more steps back. I can flatten the scene out a little bit more and. And isolate sort of a sub scene or something like that. And the 35 for me just always seems to be in the middle. I always want to walk back further or. Or walk in further and usually can't. So. [01:11:48] Speaker C: I get that. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:50] Speaker B: But anyway, we all have limitations, Justin. It's nothing to be ashamed of. [01:11:54] Speaker A: That's why I've got so many 50 mils. [01:11:58] Speaker C: So do you have a favorite 50 mil? [01:12:00] Speaker A: Oh, don't do that to me. No, I don't. [01:12:04] Speaker C: You can only choose. [01:12:06] Speaker A: You can only choose one. I've got. No, there's no way I could. Because they've all got their own different purposes. [01:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Looks. Yeah. [01:12:17] Speaker A: The new Canon RF 51.2 for a combination of an amazing look but without being too boring, is great. But I'm selling it because it's so heavy that I rarely use it because it weighs like a kilo or something. The. The new 1.4, this is all digital RF stuff is. Is almost as good with a much lower weight, even though it doesn't give me quite the happiness, joy that the. The 1.2 does. The. [01:12:55] Speaker C: Do you do a lot of portrait work, I take it then, or what? What do you mean? [01:12:58] Speaker A: Not really. I shoot. I shoot sports with it. And. And if I'm traveling, I'll usually use either 28 or 50 for, like, street kind of travely stuff. [01:13:10] Speaker C: Yeah, but. [01:13:11] Speaker A: Yeah, if. I don't know what you call more like, if documentary portraity, if that's what you mean, like not yeah. [01:13:17] Speaker C: So you still appreciate that isolation of shallow depth of field? Yeah, for sure. [01:13:23] Speaker A: And I've shot sports at like. I like shooting sports with a 50 at 1.2 because it just seems to surprising from. [01:13:29] Speaker C: Because I would think zoom lens would be your. Your go to for that. [01:13:32] Speaker A: Well, it is, that's the thing. And luckily most of the sports that I shoot aren't life or death situations in terms of having to deliver for a client. And so to. For the work to stand out and for me to enjoy it, I much prefer to shoot with something a little bit different rather than. Yeah, everyone else that's There has got a 70.202.8 on their camera and stands in similar spots and everything looks the same. So. But then, yeah, on my, on my film stuff I've got the, the old 51.2 classic things. That's cool. And it's just. I wish the new one could be this size. Like the size is just so much better, the ergonomics is so much better. But if you put it on an adapter then it's heavy and out the front rather than being close to the body. So anyway, yeah, hence why I've ended up with so many 50s. I've got the 45 1.2 as well. That thing's cool for what it is, but it does have a lot of issues and it's. There was these sort of talks that it was the new RF45 1.2 was kind of this, this lens in a form factor. Yeah. But it's not, it's nowhere near as good. It's, it's. It's not as sharp, it's got way more aberrations and it's definitely a very different lens. It's. It's in no way that lens, but I can, I can see it has a little bit of the. The same issues, but it's way more pronounced in the cheap 45 than it is in this. [01:15:03] Speaker B: What else? [01:15:04] Speaker A: Anyway, lots of 50s Hashimon. [01:15:07] Speaker B: Just while we're still on the theme of gear and given your experience with film photography and digital, do you ever see a day where the likes of Canon, Nikon or Fujifilm might re enter the 35,35 mil film market? [01:15:22] Speaker A: Good question. [01:15:23] Speaker C: I would like to say so why not? I'm optimistic and I think that, yes, even though there's a rational part of me thinking like, no, it's probably not going to happen. Especially not Fuji, they just don't seem interested, unfortunately. I would love it if they would take film a little bit more seriously and yeah. Either start manufacturing film properly again, at least a couple of lines that they cut off or make a film camera. I think there's a market for it especially if they market it well because that might have been one of the issues with the X half. It was neither here nor there and they tried to lean too much into just simulating that experience. It was a bit of, you know, nowhere really but I can see other manufacturers because we already had Pentax do it with under. I guess they're the Ricoh company now. But I can see Ricoh making another GR film camera. I can see Nikon may be doing it but then will they. [01:16:18] Speaker A: I don't know when they've got so much other stuff to do. Yeah, I'd love to know. So you. So they make the lomo, make the MCA. [01:16:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:16:28] Speaker A: Which is like a 9, 8 or 900 camera. They've sort of gone the other way. They've like gone from we make cheap plastic stuff to getting sort of more and more advanced in terms of their. Their cameras. Does someone else make like an eight or nine hundred dollar film camera? [01:16:46] Speaker C: 35 there was the mint slash, you know the Rolai 35 remake. Maybe that was about that price point. But then what do you think? [01:16:56] Speaker A: Where do you think there's a gap for a camera brand? Whether it's a. A traditional. Yeah like a Rico or someone like that or for one of these other sort of. What would you call them? What do you call Lomo? Like a cheap, I don't know, third party brand. What? Yeah, smaller company. Someone. Where's there a gap to make a modern film camera for photographers? Not, not like. Not a cheap sort of replaces a disposable but. But a proper camera. [01:17:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:30] Speaker A: What would that camera look like? [01:17:32] Speaker C: There might be a couple of different gaps. Excuse me but the primary one that I think is more sensible. Sorry, my voice is playing up a little bit is probably what mca. I'll see how I go. But yeah, that was a pretty good attempt and it was again really brave and I think they did pretty damn well. It was just a little bit under baked. I think maybe they released it too early. There were a few things if you watch my review that I said it could have been great if they had addressed some of these manufacturing related issues or design decisions. That wouldn't have been too hard considering how much effort they did put into that camera. And it's still a hopeful thing because they could just revise it or do a. An updated version or something like that. Because I think yeah that the Gap of a good point and shoot camera because of the fact that the older ones are all dying off and you can only repair them so easily and then parts and all these kind of things with your expensive contacts and Nikon point shoots and whatever it is that are costing more and more to the point where hey, if someone's going to spend $2,000 on a used camera from the late 90s or early 2000s, then there is a gap for a manufacturer to make one that has a warranty that works really well and it has all the functionality that people want. [01:18:58] Speaker B: And what would those core functionality be for you? What modern tech would you like to see in a remade new film camera? [01:19:07] Speaker C: I don't think people who shoot film would want much besides what has already been done, like good autofocus, a viewfinder ideally that is clear enough to focus and look through and not just like a little plastic one, a decent lens, whether or not it's automatic film advance and rewind. I don't think people care too much about that because you tend to like the tactile experience if you shoot film. So that works well on the MCA having a manual advance reliability. I think that's really what people want is something reliable that they're not afraid is just going to stop working or ruin their roll of film or have like too many overlapping frames or whatever it might be. And isn't extremely difficult to load or unload or anything like that where it just works and it's seamless and it produces a nice image. So not too disposable and not too high tech because then it's like well, I'm going to spend too much. [01:20:07] Speaker B: Right. [01:20:07] Speaker A: So you don't think it should be in the, in the two to three thousand dollar Australian dollars we're talking range, you think it needs to be in that like sub 1000, like a nice upgrade from, from a throwaway essentially? [01:20:23] Speaker B: Pretty much, yeah. [01:20:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I think it is interesting for the three thousand dollar marker. I think that's what you step into semi pro enthusiast territory where you might as well make a full fledged kind of a film style X pro looking camera or something. [01:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there is a demand for professional film cameras whether they be 35s or 120s because you know, a lot of people like yourself that shoot film for different reasons. But there's also that pro side of things where people shoot weddings exclusively on film that we, you know, we've interviewed a number of them. People prefer to work on film for, you know, for different jobs, yet it just doesn't There doesn't seem to be that support for them. Well, like you said, that assurance about is this going to be reliable? I'm going off to shoot a ten thousand dollar wedding with twenty, thirty, forty year old technology. At some point it's going to stop. [01:21:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:21] Speaker A: You know. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Where's a brand new film body created today that you know, that would overcome a lot of that anxiety, wouldn't it for professionals? [01:21:33] Speaker C: Yep, I think so. I think. Yeah. Like having a camera that. Let's say if Nikon was to just remake FM2 and, and maintain a warranty on it or sorry FM3A, whatever it was, the last one they did in that classic style, even that could please a lot of people. I just, I don't think it would succeed for them financially. I don't know. Maybe it could but. Yeah, yeah, like they had the F6. I think that was the last one that maybe they're even still servicing but then just remaking that if there was a huge initial cost, which I wouldn't think there should be if they already have all the framework and the engineering and the manufacturing line for it. But then it might not be financially viable. Whereas the little point and shoot market I think is the primary gap where people just want something fun because most likely they also use a phone and. Or mirrorless or other digital camera. [01:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Miami says. I for a while had an Olympus X, a film camera. Really small, 35 mil, 2.8. Just really good. I found it great. But the shutter button was too sensitive. Would love something like that. [01:22:39] Speaker C: They are sensitive. Actually I had one of those and that was one of my, my nitpicks. [01:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Just firing on frames when you're not ready. [01:22:48] Speaker C: Yeah. You rest your finger on it and I guess it depends on the weight of your. Your touch but then. Yeah, yeah, it would accidentally take shots. [01:22:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. [01:22:58] Speaker B: So. [01:22:59] Speaker A: But there's things like the wide Lux, obviously. Okay. Obviously there's Leicas pumping out, still pumping out brand new M6s. Yeah, they have that cover whatever they are. Nine grand, ten grand, I don't even know. [01:23:12] Speaker C: Yeah, see it's an accessibility problem. Like you have to take it really seriously to spend that much I think. And most people don't want to. [01:23:20] Speaker A: Wide Lux are doing their, their update reboot, remanufactured with an extra X and I'm assuming that's going to be what, five grand, six grand? [01:23:32] Speaker B: Something like that? [01:23:32] Speaker A: Maybe. [01:23:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it was six and a half for us. Like it was a lot. Which yeah, I think it's amazing. Really cool. But it's a very neat. I think it's not for most people and it's still really great that we have stuff like that again. I would have never predicted that we had any of these cameras back when I started doing this thing. [01:23:50] Speaker A: You've got stuff like the Hasselblad xpan still commanding insane prices, despite the fact that. Is it true that if it stops working, there's a chance that it just might be, like, done, you know, like this. [01:24:03] Speaker C: You can't. [01:24:04] Speaker A: There's some issues the XPAN has that. That just can't be repaired now, as [01:24:09] Speaker C: far as I've heard. Yeah. Like, either that or that the repair would be. Financially, you know, it's just not economical to. Not worth it. [01:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:18] Speaker C: Something to do with the. The winding mechanism, maybe. But then, yeah, because it's a fully electronic camera, there's so many things that could go wrong. And again, that's a little bit of a niche thing. Like the whole panorama idea. Amazing camera. I've tried one. It just like, I thought, yeah, this is cool, but it's not for me. I don't think it's for everyone to only. Yeah, I know you can switch to normal frames as well, but then the whole point of it, I guess, is shoot the panoramic shots, which, yeah, it's cool, but I don't know if they should remake that, if it would have enough of an audience, because it would cost a lot as well. And again, it would be kind of like the wide Lux, where it's quite a niche buyer. [01:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. But also, if there are buyers, you know, like, if, you know, if people buy Leica M6s, there are buyers. We went. We went to. Craig and I went to a Leica camera launch. It's actually. So the Leica, what was it? SL3P? [01:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:15] Speaker A: That just got released. Which I think is very similar to your Lumix S1, probably two S1R. That's right. [01:25:27] Speaker C: They probably have the same sensors as well. [01:25:28] Speaker A: I'm guessing 44 megapixel, I think. And. And yeah, very similar sorts of specs in terms of video and. And all that sort of stuff. But, yeah, there's. There was people there that just buy lots of gear, lots of expensive, cool film gear and. And digital gear and stuff like that. So it's like. Yeah, obviously you don't want the price to be prohibitive, but also if there is some sort of market for it, it just seems crazy that people are spending. I don't know what a hassle. Like an xpan is going for these days, but it's a decent chunk and you don't have warranty or anything like that. You'd think if someone was offering that the people would buy it. The people that might buy used would maybe buy new for an extra thousand dollars or something, if that was possible. [01:26:17] Speaker C: They would. I think they would. And that would be amazing for all these, like, great past cameras, like whether it's the xpan or the F6 or the FM3A or some kind of Canon F1 or something. If they just got remade because the manufacturer has the infrastructure or the, the blueprints for it. Cool. That'd be amazing. I just. I'm thinking they wouldn't want to do it unless they can make a profit. Yeah, yeah. [01:26:43] Speaker A: They know that it's not going to be worth their effort for the small, the small market that it is. [01:26:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it would make a lot of people happy, especially if they can chuck on a couple of modern improvements and features and fix bugs and add Bluetooth or whatever it might be. [01:26:58] Speaker B: Well, that, I mean, and that's the [01:26:59] Speaker C: other thing, like this exposure information, you know, like that would be cool, like have some kind of connectivity thing, like saving your exposure information or. [01:27:10] Speaker B: I've got a great idea, too. What about a rear screen that goes onto the hot shoe on a film camera? [01:27:17] Speaker A: Brilliant. [01:27:17] Speaker C: Wasn't there the Kodak Super 8, that was a hybrid digital and film thing that had a digital viewfinder. Was there? That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, it was like a. It was a prototype. It never made it, I think. Or they were very limited units. It costs a lot and somehow it blended a sensor and a film gate near each other or something like that. So you actually had an electronic viewfinder. I'm pretty sure I might be wrong. But then it was a working Super 8 film camera. Yeah, it was from years ago. There was like a bit of hype around it and then they launched a hybrid prototype kind of thing. But, yeah, like, we'd be amazed what could be possible with this kind of new technology and old technology blending together. Yeah. [01:28:04] Speaker B: I'm surprised Leica hasn't, Hasn't looked at doing a film version of the Q body with a fixed lens. [01:28:10] Speaker C: Like a 28 mil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:28:15] Speaker A: Interesting. [01:28:16] Speaker B: I think, I think that'd be fun. [01:28:18] Speaker C: But they're probably just doing the thing where they're. They're using existing, you know, if, like, infrastructure for what they've already created in the past, whether it's like a variation of the MP or something. There's not too much, I think, investment for them or risk taking. Yeah. [01:28:34] Speaker A: Hey, can you give me a dummies rundown of Leica M cameras? Because it's something that's always been on my mind. Like when I shoot film now I, I'm a cheater. I shoot with these amazing SLRs, but. Yeah, and also I've got the Nikon F5 and a Nikon F100, but I don't use them as much anymore because I sold my Nikon kit, but now I've got. Yeah, got the Cat 2 Canon 1N's when I'd like to find a 1V, that's my, the camera I'm searching for. But if I, if I was one day tempted to get a Leica, a used Leica and like you, I wouldn't buy Leica lenses because I couldn't afford it. I would get some really cool light lens lab or whatever lenses to play with. Just give me a quick rundown on M series cameras for a dummy like M2, M3, M4, M6. Is the M7 just weird? What's your take on M series bodies? [01:29:39] Speaker C: Well, a lot of the ones you've just listed are more similar than different. They all work more or less the same and they use the same lenses. The M7 just has the aperture priority and, and yeah, a couple of those have meters, some of them don't. But at core they offer the same experience. And I'm a little bit. Well, you've already said, you know, I'm not all about using like a glass. And that's not the main reason, which is sacrilege to a lot of Leica people. They'll go off about the fact that you. Why would you buy a Leica and then not buy the glass? Like, you know. Yeah, but I'm not you, right? And the, the thing about Leica M's for me is not the lenses, it's the experience, the way they work. And it's the same reason why maybe I didn't get into the X Pro 3 as much for my style of street photography that I'm used to, as much as I would have if it was a true range finder, for example, where maybe if I ever did try a digital Leica M, which I still haven't properly, I would get that experience. So for me it's about. It's a different way of shooting. I love Canon EOS film bodies. I have the three, but I wouldn't use them for street photography the same way that I would my Leica M. I wouldn't blend in as much. It's not as portable, it's not as small and easy to make quick reaction decisions or to preempt my settings. Because the way I shoot a lot of time, especially if I'm going overseas, I'm in a new environment and I'm always ready for something to pop up in front of me and, and be pre visualizing shots. The Leica M or at least the manual way of shooting it. And zone focusing works perfectly for that. I can be in a situation where I see something's about to happen. This guy's about to pop up from behind this wall, it's about 3 meters away and he's in, he's going to walk into this patch of sunlight. So I already know before it's happened that I'm going to pre meter and pre focus. And my frame lines, I already have them in my eyes before I even raise the viewfinder. So it just, it works really well for that because you can just quickly dial in those settings quicker than you even could on. If I was using the Ricoh GR and manual, no way I would be able to dial in all those like settings beforehand. And then I'd still be relying on the autofocus, hoping that it gets exactly what I'm trying to focus on. But with the micro I can yeah, zone focus to this exact range and have it pre metered and just snap it at the moment that image that I pre visualized pops up in front of me ideally if everything else works out. So it just removes all barriers. In that sense it just allows you to shoot in a completely manual way. With at least my one, the ma, there's no meter. And even if I was shooting an M6, which I have done in the past, I don't end up really using the meter unless I'm slowing down and shooting a portrait. But I'm speaking about street photography, documentary travel, where I've for example gotten in, in these amazingly crowded places at close range or suddenly I'm shooting a really far range and lights changing and I need to be predictive. That's what I love about the M experience. Not, not the rendering of like a glass. Because if another brand had a rangefinder, if Nikon made one that was as intuitive as the M system, like a modern one, I would probably just use that like, or even if there was that Pixis or some kind of like modern other alternatives that were digital, it didn't quite work. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that answered your question. Dustin. But that's what it is about for me. [01:33:19] Speaker A: It did. It definitely did. So you're kind of saying, doesn't really matter. Most of the models are going to give you what you want, but there's obviously little differences that everyone pulls into. And also some of them have more. What would you call it? Desirability. For some reasons, people want certain models and maybe shy away from other particular models and things like that. Does that matter? Do you just. Like, like, how would I pick one? That's, that's what I struggle with. How would I pick and make sure I don't spend money on the wrong Leica M camera for me? [01:33:58] Speaker C: Well, the thing about that is I think that Leicas are not for most people, they're not for everyone. And most of the time you can find an alternative camera choice that will probably do the job better for you. I, I haven't for the, the type of photography that I do, but then I probably could find something that's just. It's good enough. It will, you know, do the. Still do the job. At the end of the day, it's a tool. So it's about figuring out what feature is it that I want, Whether it's like a. The rangefinder experience, like using a patch to focus or seeing the world through that window rather than through an optical viewfinder or through a screen or something. What frame lines you might want, whether you want a meter or not, that's going to vary for everyone. So I think if you're trying to choose between different embodies, I don't really care too much about, like, all this one's made in Canada or this one's, whatever it might be. Yeah. I would just go with what features suit your style of usage, because if that is street photography. [01:35:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:01] Speaker C: The closest thing for you might be a, A body that has 28 mil frame lines. If you're shooting a queue. [01:35:06] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say. It's got to have, yeah. 20, 28 mil frame lines, which means the 50 mil frame lines won't be ideal, but I think that that's just part of life. [01:35:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I had the M4 and I, I wanted the 28 mil frame line. Sure, you can use an external viewfinder, but that's different because then you're not seeing the rangefinder in the same window. So that's one of the main reasons I switched to the ma. And it was a bonus that it was a black body. It's a bit less conspicuous when I'm out shooting and wherever it is if I'm in Lebanon or Bangladesh or Vietnam or something. I just want something that's, like, not too obtrusive, doesn't stick out like a big sore thumb with. With red stripes and dots and things on it. Like. I just want it to look like a generic camera, which is why I. I like that body as well. And at the end of the day, it's just a tool. Like, it's. It's a tool to do a job. [01:35:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:54] Speaker A: Greg, is this a good time to talk about street photography and using those tools out on the street and. And how Hashem approaches that sort of stuff? Do you reckon. Did you have. [01:36:05] Speaker B: It is always. It's always a good time. [01:36:08] Speaker A: I've got more gear stuff. I've got more gear stuff, but it can wait till the very end of the show. [01:36:11] Speaker C: I'm glad you guys are into street photography. I wasn't, you know, aware that you're both quite into street. I need to check. [01:36:18] Speaker B: Well, Justin's quite at it, I was gonna say. [01:36:20] Speaker A: I'm. I'm horrendous at it in Australia. I'm. I'm great at it. I wouldn't say great. That's dumb. But it's. I really enjoy it in, like, in Vietnam and places like that. Anywhere where there's new things for me to experience seems to light my brain up in a way. In a different way. Whereas in Melbourne, I struggle big time. Whereas. [01:36:41] Speaker C: Greg, what about in Bendigo? Do you go out and shoot streets? [01:36:44] Speaker A: Oh, man, Nothing. Right. [01:36:46] Speaker B: I. I did. [01:36:47] Speaker A: I did a challenge. I did, but not really. I wouldn't call it street, but I shot around Bendigo because I did a YouTube challenge on this channel a while ago just to really force myself. I made a video a day for 30 days, and they had to be made and edited and posted that day. So it was every. Every day I had to kind of find something to take photos of and then make the video and then post it. And so that meant most of the shoots would, like, around Bendigo. And it's hard, man. It's really hard. Let alone. And, yeah, it didn't usually end up having people in any of the shots because I was shooting early in the mornings to be able to get it done. And Bendigo's pretty quiet in the mornings. But, yeah, it's not. It's not easy for me in Bendigo and it's. It's still not easy for me in Melbourne. I don't know why. It just feels weird. Anyway, I'm keen to hear. Yeah. How you how you approach things, how do you approach your street photography? [01:37:45] Speaker C: Well, on that topic, I actually think people can shoot in, let's say, quiet town and really enjoy it. It just depends on your personality and what you like to shoot. Because if at the end of the day, if you want photos with lots of stimulus and action and people and things happening, yeah, you're just not going to find that you have to lean into the quiet town style of shooting. And I've seen people do that really well. However, for some, that just might get boring and not encourage them to keep going out. And when it comes to Melbourne, however, I still enjoy shooting in this city, even though a lot of I see is the same and it's the same corners, but there's enough change within that. Whether it's from season to season, the light changes, you walk to a different corner and then something interesting is happening. There's a lot of activity. And that's the kind of stuff I like. I like gestures and emotions and activity and. And the play of light and shadows. So even if I go to Sydney, it's a similar thing. I. I quite enjoy shooting there. But there is another layer to putting yourself in a completely new environment where everything is new, everything is interesting. It's not the same corners, it's not the same light that you already have seen. So I get also what you're saying. Where you need to be overseas, for example, where it's not ideal to rely on having to go overseas. I think it's good to be able to at least enjoy shooting, you know, Bendigo. I know it might be a little bit trickier, but then, yeah, for a street photographer, I think you need that versatility to some degree. [01:39:15] Speaker A: I think it's. It's more. What's it called, not novelty, like new stimulus. So if I go to a new area of Australia, a small town, no problem. It, like you say, it'll be different. It's not going to be. It's. Generally, I don't do street photography in that way. It's more like. I guess, I don't know what you would call it. I'm looking at street skates. Documentary. Yeah, exactly. Buildings and just. Just things that piqued my interest. But it seems to be when it's new and it's like I've lived in Bendigo for my entire life and it just, it's. I've just seen it all and it. I find it really hard to flip that switch into feeling inspired, if that makes sense. Yeah, it would. [01:39:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, I would probably be the same. As much as I would like to say, like, oh no, you know, some other photographer could come from overseas and. And make a whole book out of Bendigo. Yeah, sure, yeah. But then it's different for everyone and I think it's. Yeah, it's about having that balance where you can change it up every now and then. Even if you do happen to shoot regularly in your hometown or city, it's good to also put yourself in a new environment. Even if it's just a little road trip somewhere or you take a flight domestically or overseas trip. I'm going to go to Thailand for the first time in August. Oh. Mainly to go and hang out and shoot because I've always wanted to shoot there and it was like a closer and cheaper holiday on my list of places like Hong Kong, Bangkok and. Yeah, yeah. So it's good to do every now and then and yeah, you've been you. That's. [01:40:44] Speaker A: That'll be so much fun. [01:40:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:40:47] Speaker A: Actually, this is just all so self serving but I need some advice. I'm actually going on a little photography road trip this weekend. My friend, his two sons are racing in the Hata Desert race. So I'm going to go and, and sort of document their experience. Hopefully more like mostly from behind the scenes sort of stuff in the pits and getting ready for the race and all that sort of stuff. Dad. Dad and his two sons having a race. So I'm pretty keen about that. But I've also done something silly because I have to leave at 4am and I've loaded my Canon 1N with CineStill 800T which I've never used before. And I'm hoping that on the, on the drive as the light is slowly coming up, that I'll see some sort of weird petrol station where I can take a CinesTill 800T photo of a petrol station and finally have ever experienced what that's like. Have you ever shot petrol stations in dim light with CineStill 800t? Do you have any advice for me? [01:41:50] Speaker C: I'm sure I have. I'm sure I have. Yeah. [01:41:54] Speaker A: I mean, do you know what I mean? Is that like that's this. That's the cliche. [01:42:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And the whole halations thing, which I, Yeah, I usually don't like halations most. They can look cool. I, I still, my brain sees them as a defect in the image. [01:42:11] Speaker A: Can you explain what a halation is for the listeners and for. [01:42:15] Speaker C: The halation is the glow around the highlights that on films like cinestill, which is Kodak 500T without a Remjet layer, it turns red which is why it looks strange because in reality that harsh point highlight would have the, the glow according to whatever color light that was. It wouldn't just turn red because in the film it's bouncing off, you know, some layer of emulsion and kind of red scaling that little point on the film and turning red. Which looks cool because you know you would actually see reddish halations on film in cinema on like especially smaller formats or 16 mil or you know, depending on the film. But it would be subtle. The thing about Cinestill is. Yeah, it's a modified version of 500T so the halations can be strong. But yeah, if you're going to shoot gas stations, use a tripod. [01:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I've already put, I've already put the plate on the bottom of the camera. I'm like I'm gonna need tripod. [01:43:13] Speaker C: Yeah, don't, don't meter for the highlights by accident because if you just point your camera at a brightly lit gas station it's going to see these bright highlights and underexpose a lot of the time. So I would just use you know like if you have a really good matrix meter, you probably get away with that. Or just point the spot meter at some mid tone if you can. [01:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Like walk around. But it help me to that. Yeah, I don't have a handheld meter. I mean, yeah, I should learn, I should buy one of. I'm not a proper one of those photographers that have the, all the technical abilities. I just learned to meter like shooting weddings and stuff with DSLRs. So I'm used to, you know, if I put it in spot and just point it at stuff if I'm, if I'm trying to assess a scene and not let the, the evaluative metering or matrix or whatever do it for me. But yeah, this is. So you would, you can overexpose highlights a little bit more on film like than you would. [01:44:08] Speaker C: Yeah. The double edged sword is that the more you overexpose you let the highlights go bright. They will turn more red on 800 because it doesn't have the anti halation layer which if you want you can use a mist filter to nullify them a little bit because it'll spread out where that light has burnt through that, that little point and soften them. You'll still get a little bit of a pinkish red hue. And I prefer that even if you use a subtle like 18 Pro Mist, which is what I would use getting a bit technical Here. But then that would create a nice balance where it's not just the. The red halations taking all the attention and you still get that cinematic look and a softer image. And especially if you stop down a little bit, it won't look too hazy. You know, you shoot at f4.5.6 and you're on a tripod. Yeah. Use a mist filter. Overexposed. That film is really flexible. It's Vision 500T, so you can expose it at like 250 to 400 if you want, or even just leave it on 800. But meter for the shadows. Yeah. Just be careful not to underexpose it. [01:45:13] Speaker A: Okay, thank you. I can't wait. [01:45:16] Speaker C: I'm just looking forward to gas station shots. [01:45:18] Speaker A: Yeah, just one. I'm hoping for one in, like, it's [01:45:20] Speaker C: just tick it off the list. [01:45:21] Speaker A: Small town, a bit of a blue sky just starting to come up. I can see. [01:45:25] Speaker C: It does look cool. It does look good. Yeah. It reminds us of cinema, I think. You know, that's a bit of that nostalgia thing where we think about, like, movies like Taxi Driver or whatever. Bright highlights and colors and. [01:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:45:36] Speaker C: Blue Hour. It's not. It's a nice look. [01:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:39] Speaker C: Where is this race, by the way? [01:45:40] Speaker A: Where are you driving? So it's. It's near Mildura. [01:45:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:45:45] Speaker A: Sort of along the river there. And it's. Yeah. So it's four and a bit hours. I'm also going to. So I'm going to leave at like 4am to hopefully get to Lake Tyrell, which I've never been to. But people keep sending these amazing photos into the podcast from Lake Tyrell, just over and over again. So I'm like, I better go. [01:46:02] Speaker C: So I mean, is that north of Mildura, like, further up towards the border? [01:46:05] Speaker A: No, no, it's. It's closer to Bendigo, so it's. It's. Maybe it's near Sea Lake. It's maybe two and a half hours from Bendigo or something like that. [01:46:14] Speaker C: Great area. Like those road trips up there. They're heaps of fun. And that's another great thing for someone, I think, to change things up is just do a road trip. Like, I went up to Broken Hill, drove through Mildura, and there's some great sites that you can stop by and see. And I wish I could do something like what you're describing, actually, where you're behind the scenes and, like, maybe the race thing or. I always wanted to see a rodeo. I didn't get to see one when I was up there, but, yeah, something like that would be really fun. [01:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Behind the scenes at a rodeo would be amazing. Just rock around and take shots of stuff happening and that's. Yeah, I'm sort of lucky in the sense that I've been around desert racing enough that I know that I won't, I won't get excited by the bigger picture. You know, I've been to races and taken thousands of photos of people, you know, going fast around corners and all that sort of stuff. So I can really let go of a lot of that stuff to focus in on, on what's happening between just the, these guys that are, that are doing this thing. The dad needs two son or two of his sons. So it's like I'm kind of excited about that. That part of it. [01:47:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:16] Speaker A: I just haven't decided what gear I'm going to shoot it on yet. I've got, I've, I've flip flopped between. [01:47:23] Speaker C: Sounds like you want 28 mil. [01:47:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll flip flop between. I'll just shoot the whole thing on my Q3 1 camera. Nothing else to like, oh, I should probably. Or maybe I should shoot some film to. I don't know. And then. So then I had a bag with five cameras in it. [01:47:38] Speaker C: Be careful with this. Yeah. Because that can actually affect you where you have like too many decisions and you get that paralysis. And I know I put myself in that situation. So like I try and max it out at two cameras and they need to be distinctly different where one has maybe film and a 28 and the other is a 50 with color or something or digital, whatever it might be. Where they're. Like when you shoot a wedding, you know why you're reaching for camera A and why you're reaching for camera B. Yeah, you. [01:48:02] Speaker A: So you shoot some, you shoot some film while you're shooting weddings? [01:48:06] Speaker C: Sometimes. [01:48:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:07] Speaker C: If the client wants it. Because I feel like most clients don't really care whether it's film or not. But some do appreciate it. They know what it is and they know it's not just an edit. And yeah, I have the next one I have booked actually. They want a bit of film shot but it's getting increasingly expensive as you know. [01:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:48:23] Speaker B: It's interesting. [01:48:24] Speaker C: It. You can, if you just maybe add a roll or two and you work that into your, your budget and you can kind of use that as maybe a jumping off point for your edits or just include it as a little bonus gallery or work it into some of your delivery. You could, if it's just some 35, you know, a Couple of rolls maybe. But yeah, I've had like I shot an entire wedding on film once and that's fun. [01:48:49] Speaker A: It's cool. [01:48:50] Speaker C: Most clients can't justify it or they, you know, they don't want to pay for the film or miss out on the digital. Having that larger magnitude of photos to choose from. [01:49:02] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say. Is it more. [01:49:04] Speaker C: I love to do it. [01:49:04] Speaker A: A cost thing or more of a. Yeah, they don't want to miss out on. [01:49:07] Speaker C: It's both. Yeah. [01:49:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:09] Speaker C: Because you have a, you know, a smaller delivery and you have less of that clean look. How many want the digital? I guess the clarity with the night, especially with the indoor stuff because you just have to rely on flash otherwise. Or harsh lighting. Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's cost. It's kind of risk as well, which you don't want to impose that risk onto a client, especially if they're not prepared for it. So if I'm shooting a wedding on film, you'll of course have as much redundancy as possible. But you. Ideally the client will understand that. Yeah, a role could. Something could go wrong. You might get like some issues that you just can't go back. [01:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. We've got a few people in our community who shoot film weddings. [01:49:59] Speaker C: Analog, modern. What's his name? He's from Melbourne actually. He's a really cool film wedding photographer. [01:50:05] Speaker A: Now, Joel, check him out from up near Sydney and haven't had him on the show, but there's regularly in the comments or semi regularly in the comments. There's a guy called the Drunk wedding Photographer. He's from Southern California and he shoots. Yeah. Only film. [01:50:23] Speaker C: But I've seen him online. [01:50:25] Speaker A: Oh, have you? Yeah, on like Nikon F5s and stuff. So he's sort of. Because he's only shooting film, he wants camera bodies that are pretty capable in that sense. You know, like he's not. Not walking around with old, really old sort of. What would you call it, less response. [01:50:45] Speaker C: Film bodies. [01:50:46] Speaker A: Point or point and shoots or just, you know, really like slower to set up film. But like these things, you know, you could shoot. People shot the Olympics with them. So I guess people are like, you know, you can. You can get the job done at a wedding at a fairly high level even though you're shooting just film. So yeah, there's a. [01:51:03] Speaker B: It's. [01:51:04] Speaker A: It's interesting. Definitely would be tough. It'd be fun to do. But I would only want to do it if I. I would only want to do it if I Had a business partner. I still do Jim that we shot weddings with for years. I would only shoot a wedding on film if he was there shooting digital so that, so I could be like, hey, if this doesn't work out, no problem, no problem. We've got all the digitals and you'll get those too. You know, that's the only way I would do it. Otherwise I'd be so stressed the whole day. I wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be able to load the film. My hands would be shaking. Oh, let me, let me read a couple of comments before we get back into into street photography. David Leporardi, resident expert on all things film and digital, says Kodak high speed infrared HIE film didn't have an anti halation layer which caused the prominent blooming or glow often seen in the highlights of infrared photographs. [01:52:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:52:03] Speaker A: Where is this one? My wedding photographer in 2017 shot a bunch of Hasselblad 500cm shots. Yeah, that was always a pretty common [01:52:13] Speaker C: one we saw for weddings. [01:52:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And for wedding photographers that were shooting digital to just whip something like that out for just a couple of rolls of something special, you know, during the day. [01:52:25] Speaker C: Six, four, five. And all your contacts. [01:52:27] Speaker A: Pentax. Yeah, yeah. [01:52:29] Speaker B: And Scott Virtue who we've had here on the podcast in the past, she shoots with multiple bodies. In fact, I think she was hassling Justin for a, for a lucky straps harness that held at least five. [01:52:40] Speaker A: She wants a five camera harness including [01:52:42] Speaker B: one for the Hassi, which she wants sitting right here in the middle of her chest. [01:52:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:46] Speaker C: So be worried about you're back at the end of that day with. [01:52:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Stepping back into, into the street scene. I'm always curious to know about people that do undertake street photography. Do you find that the process is easier or you yield better results when you're on your own versus when you're with a mate or a group of mates. How does that experience play out for you? [01:53:13] Speaker C: Generally on my own, I work better or I can focus a little bit more and not get tempted to. Which is what I would like to do is just have a good time and chat like I am with you guys about whatever it might be. But there can be an edge that you can gain when you're shooting with other people where you get like that little bit competitive maybe or, or you kind of, you know how each other style is and how you work and you have this understanding that like, oh, he's gone silent, he's seeing a shot walking off somewhere and you Kind of just respect that and you have this, like, etiquette between each other. Whereas it depends, I think, on the person you're shooting with. Because you can shoot, like, together, one, two, all day, and then both come home with great shots. And might not be any worse than if you were shooting alone. But generally I find that, like, I'll work better alone. I'm just in the zone because I kind of go into that flow state sometimes if it's a really great situation and I'm locked in. But not to say that you can't also be effective with other people. What about you guys? [01:54:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's been my experience too, is that I much prefer to hunt light alone, because I get into that, I lock in, I put on music, and the world just sort of becomes silent. To me, it's just all about finding the light. And sometimes when you fight, when you do street with other people, it's interesting doing street with people who also do street a lot versus those who might be their first or second time. And it's that community, that almost that unspoken communication where if I see it out of my peripheral vision that you, for example, have stopped and have raised your camera, you know, it's instinctive for me to stop and make sure that I'm not about to walk into that frame to that composition. Whereas sometimes when you. Especially when I've done groups in the past, you know, I've often seen people will line up a shot and then half the group will just walk straight through the middle of it. You know, there's that element to it as well. [01:55:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Groups get really tricky in that sense. [01:55:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's more of a social, fun outing at that point, isn't it, than you're trying to get amazing images. [01:55:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:55:22] Speaker A: Do you do music or anything when you're rocking around? [01:55:26] Speaker C: Actually, yeah, I wouldn't be able to because. And it's interesting how that's different. And Greg mentioned he listens to music, and I've heard that before. Whereas for me, I prefer to. To just be there with the. The sounds and sights of whatever's actually going on. And I am pretty sure that if I had music on, it would. It would really make it tricky for me. It would be a distraction. [01:55:47] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:55:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:55:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:49] Speaker C: Especially if I'm somewhere where it's a lot of stimulus because I also get overstimulated quite easily. And maybe that's an interesting take, actually, where if you cancel out the, you know, diegetic sounds or whatever you would call it in in the film world, maybe you wouldn't get that anxiety of overstimulation, which. Yeah, I've never thought about that, actually, because I know I like to hear those sounds and it makes me feel safer and more ready to take on whatever's about to pop up and. [01:56:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I've never really tried it, though. I kind of have. [01:56:23] Speaker B: Well, you should give it a shot. [01:56:24] Speaker C: Yeah. I think I was in Sydney once and I had it happening and I was like, oh, this is distracting me. Or it just feels like something's there and I can't hear the streets. [01:56:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:33] Speaker C: So currently, I don't do the music thing. [01:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:37] Speaker A: I like to be isolated, but it's. This is the. The other thing I wanted to ask about. And I don't know if I'm just imagining it. I'm not a Melbourne person. So the city, as I get older, seems to be being more and more. What would you call it, a shock to my senses when I go there, More rough. But it feels like on the streets, I need to be very, very situationally aware now, especially when I'm trying to take some photos. And I never used to think that, am I, like, am I just getting old? And I used to just be oblivious or not care or whatever, or other streets changing a bit as well. [01:57:15] Speaker C: What. [01:57:15] Speaker A: What's your take on that? [01:57:18] Speaker C: I can relate because I'm also, you know, into my 40s now, and I know that there is a natural change where you kind of feel you have to have an increased situational awareness and you're not wanting to take as many risks. But I also admit that I don't think the city's changing enough. I think it's. Sure people will say, oh, Melbourne's terrible now, or Sydney sucks, or it's just not safe to go out in the streets. But in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's that different. There was always good and bad. I know that for me, yeah, it is just me getting older, so I kind of have that awareness. And I think that, yeah, maybe there's just like a constant flow of up and down. And sure, in the grand scheme of things, maybe, like, certain aspects have gotten worse, but I also think that it's probably about as safe as it always was. Right. Like Melbourne. Yeah, maybe safer in some ways. So, yeah, I like to think that it's actually the same, at least when it comes to Melbourne, for the most part, there's just different facets that change. And maybe there's like a bad corner where something might go down and. [01:58:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:58:27] Speaker C: And that could be. [01:58:27] Speaker B: It is interesting. [01:58:28] Speaker C: Ten years ago, I think. [01:58:30] Speaker B: I think that. I think that that what I see around here. I live in a city. I'm right near Chapel street and Chapel street goes from, you know, too Rack pretty much right through to Windsor and into sort of eastern Kilda. And it's interesting. I've lived in this area for over 30 years. And those good and bad places shift up and down the street. [01:58:54] Speaker C: They do because it was. [01:58:55] Speaker B: Different parts become Green Jack Corner. [01:58:57] Speaker C: Do you remember that was always a bad corner. Like it was corner of Chapel and Commercial or something. [01:59:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Under the. Under the. The Prince Central buildings. Beautiful architecture. That's just down the road from me. And yeah, it's. It shifts. It moves up and down the street as like, you know, Windsor got gentrified about a deck at least a decade ago now and all of a sudden that got cleaned up better restaurants opened and, you know, fancy dining halls and that sort of thing. And. And so the. The shift of where you kind of felt less at ease moved back into Prahran, you know, and it's. I think over time those things. Those things change from my experience on the street. You're right. There's always been things to be concerned about and I won't have music on all the time if I'm in an area, especially if it's night. I won't wear. Have headphones on when I'm shooting at night. I just need much more awareness of my safety, for one thing. Or if I'm in an area where it just feels like it's a. You know, it's a bit rough for whatever reason. And then I might. I might leave the earbuds in, but I'll just turn off noise cancellation so I still get some feedback from the world around me. [02:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:04] Speaker C: Or you can chat or something like that. [02:00:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. But yeah, I think. I agree. I think that the. The Melbourne especially is. Is probably much the same as it's always been. I think if anything, the nefarious people that we're talking about or referring to, they've gotten bolder, if anything. [02:00:26] Speaker C: Sure. And social media probably has something to do with that jerkin. Awareness of these things have increased as [02:00:34] Speaker A: well because that definitely could be true. [02:00:37] Speaker C: Coverage is better. [02:00:38] Speaker A: People are. Because you're more aware of the bad things that are happening. So then you're a little bit more. Not timid. What's the word? Like you're sort of concerned is higher because you're seeing it way more regularly. [02:00:51] Speaker C: Well, that's what I think the majority of it is. Because, like, let's say there was like a stabbing at the corner of Chapel or whatever in like 2003. Maybe there wasn't someone there with an iPhone to snap the photo and it was just like a written article at the bottom of the newspaper with some 99 people didn't know about it. Yeah. Whereas now that happens and it becomes a viral thing and there's like two different angles of someone on recording it. And I remember it started to shift and there was like something. There was that corner, you know, like something like people were throwing chairs at each other and it was early days when people would have footage on their phones and then it would become a big thing and everyone and. [02:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah, not. [02:01:28] Speaker C: And now it's not just 2% of people who hear about it who happen to be in that neighborhood now, like half of Melbourne knows about it and it's like a known problem. Yeah, maybe there's a shift. Yeah. [02:01:40] Speaker A: David. David Mascara says you guys sound like you live in the Bay Area. They should come join us. Apparently we're. Apparently. Yeah, we're probably. They'd probably come over here and be like, wow, it's so quiet and nice. [02:01:54] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know what? I've had people come from the States and they're like, yeah, Melbourne is so good. And it's like, you know, especially if. I don't know. But you know, comparisons to the Bay Area or LA or something, they're like, wow, your transportation, great. It's safe. I can see, you know, PS, whatever that we call them PSOs, the guys at the train stations, which is, yeah, really cool. Like they're there at night time and you feel a bit safer and. Yeah, I don't know, I don't find it to be an unsafe city. There are elements everywhere. Because I've traveled to a lot of places where there's like slums and really rough looking places and it's all relative. And it's funny because the most unsafe I've ever felt wasn't in Australia or even a third world type country. It was in like Naples in Italy or something like that somewhere. You would think, oh, you know, it's Italy. Like you would feel. Yeah, you should feel safe there. But no, it just depends where you are. Maybe the quarter of the city that I was in at that particular time and the looks I got from people and like, I kind of got stalked a little bit. Like, you know, I've never had that happen. Even in like areas where there were slums And. And poverty. So there you go. [02:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. For me, it was Mexico City. I don't know what I knew. I just. [02:03:06] Speaker C: Unsafe. [02:03:08] Speaker A: It felt the. And I've traveled. I wouldn't say I've traveled a lot, but I've traveled to quite a few places around the world, but not a lot. And it's the. The first time. And I don't know what it was, what was. But the entire time I felt unsafe. [02:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:24] Speaker C: And it's. Again, it's probably just like relative, you know, what time of year you went, which part of the city, and your own unique experience. [02:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Just didn't. I didn't feel. Most other cities I can get a vibe for pretty quickly. And yeah, there's always, you know, we did three months in the States. There's plenty of places in the States that are unsafe. But I. But I felt more like I was able to tell. Whereas Mexico City, it was like it was the entire time I was there. It was weird. [02:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:53] Speaker A: Very, very weird. Anyway, might have just been me. Apparently. I'm getting old. Philip Johnson says could just be that. And Paul says we perceive risk as hazard multiplied by exposure for a given hazard. The more instances we become aware of, the higher the perceived risk. I think that's a pretty. [02:04:13] Speaker C: Makes perfect sense. Yeah. Especially if you. Logical happen to you. [02:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:04:17] Speaker C: There's a psychology behind it as well. Like if someone's had, you know, if they've been, for example. Knock on wood. You know, I've never been like attacked or mugged or whatever it is, but I'm sure if something had happened like that, it would completely change my senses in that same place or in that same situation for the rest of my life, maybe. [02:04:35] Speaker B: And it does. Yeah, it does. Because if something nefarious happens, it just adds a little bit of trauma to how your early warning system in your brain reacts when you're in a similar situation. When those sort of triggers go off, you become far more hypersensitive to what's going on around you. I've been attacked or approached aggressively twice, both on the same day. I've had plenty of people say, don't. I don't give you permission. Plenty of people say, did you just take a photo? Delete it. And I do on every occasion. But I've only had this one situation. It was last year or maybe earlier this year where I was. Yeah, I was on the same day. I had two people come at me that were clearly out of control. And that. That shook me up for a while, you know, So I started Seeking different ways to approach my craft, where it made me feel safe, and I've rebuilt my confidence since then. But it is an interesting experience. [02:05:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Because you can have the best of intentions and you're exercising all the. The good etiquette, and you just have really bad luck sometimes. And I've heard a lot of stories and, you know, sure, I've been approached aggressively and, you know, never physically attacked or anything, but I can see how that would happen. You're just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and boom, that's it. Some people have, like, quit street photography or even heard people saying, I'm never shooting in Melbourne again, or whatever. [02:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:50] Speaker C: Corner or whatever it might be. [02:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah. How do you. [02:05:53] Speaker A: How do you feel about that side of it? So let's not. Let's. Let's forget about the. The safety side of things, but just the. Just the sort of people being willing to have their photo taken. That's. That's the thing that I think I love about overseas about, you know, a lot of the places that I've traveled to, people are more than happy to. To be documented. And you smile at them. They smile back. Like, there's. There's this kind of. In. In Bali, I was in sort of a less touristy neighborhood where a lot of places were getting built. And every morning, like, I'd be taking photos of the construction workers because I was just fascinated by the way that they built and the way that they worked and that, you know. Yeah. [02:06:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:06:41] Speaker A: And just like. I don't know, just. It was amazing, the texture and everything of the way that they went about building these beautiful villas they were building for other people that were going to fly from some other country and then own this beautiful villa. And they. They would actually live in the villa construction site with their family for, like, three to six months while they're building it. So they'd build a small out of just wood with some tarps, like a small mini house. The kids would be rocking around out the front of the site in the mornings. And anyway, so I was fascinated, but I take photos of them and that. And they'd wave. So then they got to know that I was walking around with my camera. And every morning, like, some mornings, they would wave at me before I saw them because they're up on the roof or something like that. And I'm just like, it is. It's a very different culture about a photographer. It felt like a photographer was someone different to them. They were like, oh, there's a photographer. As opposed to. In Australia, it feels like people like, why are you taking photos? Like, what. What did you take that for? What are you going to do with that? Did you just take a photo of me? And that might be my own insecurities because I know our culture well, so I'm. I'm putting words in other people's mouth, if that makes sense. Or putting, you know, like I'm imagining the thoughts they're having even though they might not be having them. But that's how I feel. I don't know. What do you. What are your thoughts on the way Australians or people in Melbourne perceive photographers on the street? [02:08:12] Speaker C: It's a great topic, actually. Something I'm always thinking about and, and sometimes talking about in my videos or whatever, because my experience with street photography did start in Melbourne, and it was that I was like, even terrified across the street if I was taking someone's photo or wondering what they would think or if they would misunderstand me, because I kind of always had this feeling of, you know, am I being misunderstood? And that's completely natural. But the more I felt at ease with myself, which was the more I actually shot over the years, it took a long time, the more I started to see that, well, this person isn't necessarily interpreting this the wrong way. And if they are, maybe there's something I can do to counteract that in my approach. Because when I started off, I probably felt like, really scared or standoffish or that I had to be somewhat sneaky or make sure that I didn't get noticed or all these different things. With time, I just embraced what I was doing. And actually, in large thanks to watching a lot of John Free's video, I don't know if you guys are familiar with him. Great photographer who was making videos at the time out of the States, and he shot in San Fran, actually, a lot of these places. And. And he was always promoting this idea of just embracing what you're doing. Street photography is not a bad thing. You're out there capturing these beautiful moments or reality or emotion, and you shouldn't be hiding what you're doing. And if you try to approach a situation not from the perspective I'm trying to take something, I'm trying to just get my good shots and go home. You need to be in tune with the street and with the people. Even within a particular city, there might be certain parts where you know you shouldn't be shooting or you should shoot in a certain way. So it's all about taking your understanding beyond just what is the surface Level concept of street photography, creating a nice shot and just, I need to get there and get this light and get the person walking through it, and that's it. No, what's this person's backstory? Where are they coming from? And, like. And how are you approaching it? Are you acting sneaky or you being used to giving them a smile after you take their shot? Like, I'll try and do that. If someone's noticed me, I'll maybe say, hey, nice outfit, or acknowledge what I'm doing and why, without even them having to preempt that. And then sometimes, you know, that'll happen and they'll just keep walking. You know, they are. It's just some nerdy photographer or you act, whatever it might be. Yeah, but it's really dependent. That's a really good point, Justin. How you were in Bali and you experienced that. And it varies a lot. And I know in Asian countries there is that tendency for people to. To embrace it a little bit more, but it can really depend because you might have somewhere that has, like you said, more tourism, whereas Bali, that spot you went to, didn't have a lot. But there used to be this idea that, like, I wanted to go to Morocco because it's, like, so photogenic. And then over this last 10 or 20 years, I've just been seeing so many photos out of that country. And from Marrakech, maybe, or particular parts of Morocco to where now you. There's a reputation that if you go there, they hate photos or they'll wave you away or they'll ask money because they feel like now, you know, for the. And I get it for the locals, they're in a zoo where constantly their photos being taken. Right. And there's that zoo effect. So, yeah, I get it. And maybe now I'm less tempted to want to go there because I wouldn't want to disrespect the local culture. Or if I did, I would have to approach it in a certain way or, you know, start a conversation first and not just. Just want to take the photo and run and. Or go in with an expectation. I would want to. And I would advise also others doing street photography when traveling to research the place you're going to. What is the culture like there? How do they feel about it? What are other people's photos there? And what stories did they tell about people's reactions to being photographed? Because you need to come in with some level of respect and understanding. [02:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I'd like to add to that that, you know, if you are Going to a new city either even in Australia, city you've never been to before, or you're. Yeah. You are heading overseas. Also look at what the local laws are around privacy and photography in public. Because I know in certain part in parts of Japan now, especially around some of the holiest sites and especially around geisha areas in Kyoto, in Gion is Gaon district, they've put up no photos, put in place rules that you can't photograph the geishas in this area because people were mostly tourism but people were going there to take photos and they were asking these working geishas, they're not there a zoo, exhibits, they're working, you know, all of the, the hair and the makeup and the, and the, and the amazing kimonos. That's not for you. That's part of their job, you know, and people were starting to, to physically touch the geisha to get them to pose in certain ways, you know, to get horrible. [02:13:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:13:11] Speaker B: And yeah, it's just, it ruins it for the rest of us, you know. [02:13:14] Speaker C: It does. [02:13:14] Speaker B: It's why we can't have nice things. [02:13:16] Speaker C: Yeah, well that's especially places where you get bus loads of tourists coming to one place and it's so, yeah. Fetishized and it's exotic. It's gonna happen. And I, I saw that shift first time I went to Kyoto. It's probably in 2013 and it was like, like yeah, you could take photos a little bit more easily. And then I would see on social media as things shifted and more tourism came in from, yeah. So many different countries that yeah, I get it now. Like it's not number one. Why would you want to take that photo now when you, you know, like people are going to be upset and it's been taken a million times and you're not creating anything special or different. Sure, it's cool practice and you come home with a nice photo. But I think respect is, is more important and you can find probably better photo opportunities somewhere else where they don't have that, that zoo effect imposed upon them. [02:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Just, just going back to what you said about being more open in your own mind about what you're out there to do and sort of hoping that that will I guess project onto the people around you that you're not taking photos from a position of fear, but a position of this is what I'm here to do and this is a great thing and hoping that that'll sort of be read in body language and just, I don't know, get some woo woo. But in in the vibe of. Of how you position yourself, there's a photographer. I think the first time that I noticed that was like as in. Got my eyes got open to that was on a YouTube video from. I think it's the right guy. Have you heard of Eduardo Ortiz? Eduardo Ortiz, I think it is. He's a. [02:14:54] Speaker C: Sounds. [02:14:55] Speaker B: Rings a bell. [02:14:56] Speaker A: He's a street photographer on YouTube. And, and yeah, he. He has this real sort of. I don't think you could look at him and the way that he smiles at people and the way that he conducts himself on the street. I don't think anyone could look at him and not be somewhat happy. He has that. That feel about him the whole time. You know what I mean? Like, it's. He was exuding like he's a good time. He's a. He's a. He's a. A good person and out there to have fun. And he. And he's not shying away from people. He's engaging with people and. But not necessarily posing them, you know, not. Not because that's what, what always confused me. I'm like, hang on, do I have to like, talk to people first and, and then be able to be like, okay, can I take your photo? Because that doesn't interest me. I want to take them a photo of them doing something natural in, you know, not. Not sort of posed. But he. Yeah, I don't know. It was. I think. I think the way you were talking about it makes a lot of sense that, that if you believe that you're out there doing a good thing and not somehow out there stealing photos from. From unsuspecting citizens that are just trying to go about their day. I think that mindset. Mindset can be read by. Through your body language and that sort of stuff. Maybe. [02:16:15] Speaker C: Yeah, it can. [02:16:16] Speaker A: To disarm people. [02:16:17] Speaker B: There's. [02:16:18] Speaker C: There's two points on that is. Number one, it's not as easy for everyone, especially if you're a little bit more introverted and which I do. I feel like I am more introverted or somewhere in the middle or you just don't have that personality to really come up with conversation starters or to engage or to know how to react when something's kind of. You need to diffuse a situation. But also there's just a point where, yeah, you could still have the best of intentions and you might just get people who are just not having it and they have their reason for it. [02:16:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:16:50] Speaker C: So, yeah, like that bit of research, I think or understanding is useful before you go somewhere. [02:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:16:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:57] Speaker B: I Think so, too. Because inevitably every street photographer will be confronted by someone to say, hey, did you just take my picture? Picture? I don't want my picture taken. It's going to happen if you're out. If you're out in the field enough, it's going to happen. And that, that whole thing about being genuine and authentic, about why you're there, not trying to hide or say, no, I didn't. You know, that if you've got that sort of. You've got your heart in the right place for what you're doing, then when those moments do come up that people dispute your actions, you know, you can have a conversation. You don't become defensive about it. You say, this is what I'm doing. You know, I can show you the photo and if you, if you don't want me to keep it, I can delete it in front of you. It's just a photo, you know, it's. I'm not making money off street photography. I'm not selling prints for street photography. It's just a photo. I can get rid of it, you know, and that itself will help to defuse the situation. Whereas you go into the field with a mindset of being sneaky, manipulative, subterfuge, all those sorts of things. And once when someone does come at you, they've got a lot more on their side of the case to have a go at you for, because your behavior, your body language, all that stuff tells. Tells the world what you're doing. And if you're behaving sneaky, you're going to look sneaky. [02:18:09] Speaker C: Even if you have the right to shoot in public, like, you know, the situation is here in Melbourne, if you just lean on that right that you have, like, oh, you're in a public space, so I'm allowed to shoot you. And you respond to someone's upset reaction with that, that's not going to go down well. And I kind of learned that the hard way is that. But it's. Even if that is the case, don't lead with that and just be like, oh, no, you're in public. I can take your photo and all that. You need to kind of try and empathize with why they might be upset or what kind of stigma there is around people's photos being taken and shared online or whatever it is. Because sometimes it's not even something you would understand. Like the whole Morocco situation. Maybe there's a superstition, which I've heard of, where, you know, you're taking someone's soul or whatever it is. You need to. [02:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:18:51] Speaker C: Empathize. Even if you don't agree with that. Like, you need to kind of say, oh, you know, like, show that you have no bad intent. Hey, what's your name? And this is my name, and I'm here from whatever country or I like street photography. Show them the photos like you said, and lead with those things. And then, you know, if it. If push comes to shove and. And I've seen that happen where people, yeah. They really want to stand their ground and say, no, you. That what you're doing is illegal, and I'm going to call the cops or whatever it might be. It hasn't happened to me, but I've seen it happen. You just need to. Yeah. Just try and keep your cool and. And don't worsen the situation. Just try and diffuse it as much as possible. Because even, like, I was in. In Lebanon earlier this year, and I'm lucky in that. Yeah, look, I have a connection there and it's a bit easier for me to shoot and I can speak the language. And even within the country, there's differences between shooting in ultimate one city versus another, where maybe there is a little bit more tourism or maybe there's, like, certain political stigmas or fears about whatever's being done with people's photos or something like that. Or sometimes it's the same thing as just here, where they just think you're from the council or from the government and you photograph their shop because of some lack of compliance or something weird like that's actually happened to me. And I was there in a city where most people are really into getting their photo taken, but I was out shooting almost every day, and I eventually, you know, just in Tripoli had a guy spot me and taking a photo of. He wasn't even in the photo. It was like a really cool old shop with some nice colors and signage. And it was like the framing was just a little bit off to the right, but he was on. On the left and he rushed at me and he's speaking Arabic and he's like, did you just take my photo? And like, where are you from and why'd you take my photo and all that? Are you sure? I wasn't in it. And he's like. Like, let me see it. Until I was shooting on film, you know, and I, yeah, tried to just, you know, keep it cool and be, you know, calm and not act offensive and. And he was. He was fine after that. Like. Yeah, he just wanted to make sure that I wasn't like, from the council or the government or something like that. He literally asked me in Arab, he's like something about are you from the the council? Or said whatever like equivalent it was there. And once I assured him and I can I get it because I look like a foreigner for one. Even though I am Lebanese, the way I dress and act and I'm walking around with the camera, I stand out and I get it. I, you know, last thing I would have wanted to do in that situation is get defensive and just explain why I was taking the photo instead. Which luckily for me that diffused that situation. Yeah, yeah, can't always be so brings [02:21:30] Speaker A: up a wonderful point that David de Parker just commented before. Hey David, good to see you. Says as wonderful as film was, the beauty of digital is you can share the picture and have a chat about why you found the moment capture worthy when challenged. Which is, it's exactly the point you said there because you were shooting film so you couldn't even say hey look, you weren't in it. [02:21:49] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great point David. I actually agree with that. But I think it's also really cool to be able to explain to the person without even having to show them the shot why you found interest in them if that is the case. Because that is something that I found has helped a lot for me. It's like, you know, I love your hat and the way you've dressed, whatever it might be. Or you know, you try and show them like hey turn around, look, see how that light was there and you show your genuine passion for it through your explanation. That can be really cool as well because then you know everyone's going to be self conscious as well. Even if they do see a photo of themselves, they're not necessarily going to like it. But if you, you show your passion that is even more effective than showing a photo, I think. [02:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah, well said. No, I agree. [02:22:34] Speaker A: How, how are you doing for time? Because I have two other topics that I can cut one of them out. [02:22:40] Speaker C: I'm good man. [02:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I've or both. [02:22:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm pretty clear until midday so. Oh, what are we up to now? Oh, we've gone over to. [02:22:47] Speaker A: We're 11:30. [02:22:48] Speaker C: We can keep it, we can keep it. Swear I said. Yeah, yeah. [02:22:52] Speaker A: Especially deep in the back of the show. We can say whatever, no one will get to this part. No, I'm just kidding. I wanted to ask. I have two things. Let's, let's go with can, can we have a look at some of your photos? Even maybe some of the stuff from, from Lebanon or what? Like. Yeah, can you just show us through a couple of images that you, that you like? I can bring them up on Instagram or whatever. [02:23:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean if you want to open Instagram. That's some of my recent stuff I've posted. I, I mind you, I post a lot of different things. Again, I treat it just like a, a little gallery board that I can look at my own work through. But you know, that second last post was from Tripoli, the black and white one. The thing is, I'm saving a lot of my favorites, not all of them. I do post some of the stuff that will make it into my book, but then I'm saving a lot of them for that. So I won't show you those yet because number one, I don't have them printed or anything. Yeah, actually I do have some as little six by fours, but yeah, they're not with me. [02:23:54] Speaker A: So that's, so that's how you mentioned that before. That's how you operate. So basically if you think that it's, it's book worthy, it doesn't see the light of day until the book release. [02:24:04] Speaker C: Not always, no. Sometimes I'll still share it and then. Because the interesting thing is I will get that situation where a shot that I thought was, was like not that special or I had doubts about resonates with people. And I know it's not all about trying to cater to what you think people will like. And that's not my approach. But I try and strike a balance between knowing that, yeah, the photos I love are primarily going to be the ones that I make it into the book because that speaks to me. But it is good to, to gauge things. [02:24:35] Speaker B: Your doorbell. [02:24:37] Speaker C: It is actually, but it's, it's fine. [02:24:39] Speaker A: Camera. [02:24:40] Speaker C: No, no, no. It might be because I didn't think I have any deliveries today, but sometimes it's like the wrong number because there's another flat that gets the same get confused with my 1. But either way, if it's. I'm not gonna. I can always pick something up if it's a delivery. Yeah, sorry, I lost my, my, my train of thought there. [02:25:05] Speaker B: We're talking about what makes it into the book, what makes it onto Instagram, [02:25:09] Speaker C: how you differentiate it really depends. Yeah, because at the end of the day with this whole book thing, it's new to me and I also want to pepper in a little bit of what I think might not be something that speaks to me personally, but then does resonate with people because I think there is an Importance in that too with not just like being too selfish about what you think works for. For a project. And that might be a weird take. I don't know, like, because I know that for the majority of photographers are probably just curate everything themselves, but I also get opinions. So not only the whole Instagram thing, what I do more importantly is I have my six by four prints of any series I'm working on and this current one, I've run it by about four or five different friends, the majority of whom are photographers, but even some of whom are not any way involved with photography just to get what they think about it or put a little mark on the back of the 6 by 4 of what really speaks to them or stands out or feels like there's an emotional connection with. Because then it helps me build an understanding of the point of view outside of my own. Because then I'll start to see patterns where, oh, hey, look, all the photographers chose this or you know, the non photographers really like that one or maybe there was overlap between a few of them. So then I think that's helpful for me to understand my own work as well. [02:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really mature way of looking at it. [02:26:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's smart. Non photographers and photo because. Because they're going to get drawn to different things. [02:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:26:41] Speaker A: But it would also be interesting to find out when. When everyone sort of unanimously agrees, hey, this is an amazing shot. That'd be. That would be really interesting. [02:26:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:26:50] Speaker B: It's kind of an upscaled version of, of when you, you know, you put it, you put an image that you think is hot on socials and it gets nothing. And then you put something up that you thought, oh yeah, it was all right, I'll put it up there and. And that gets the love. Yeah, it happens all the time because of that difference of perspective. And plus, you know, often when we take a photo, we've got a really unique emotional attachment to that moment in time when we took that frame because our eye saw something, our hands reacted in the right way. You know, a camera performed the light, the time, the characters, everything comes together and you get this kind of buzz that that's a good shot, that's a good frame. But not everyone else will see that and no one will understand the experience that you had in capturing that which contains our view. [02:27:36] Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, because we're way too attached to our own perspective. Because there's even shots where I look at, I'm like, ah, this moment was better 3 seconds ago when the person was doing this or whatever. And I only. Yeah. And then isn't that the worst or. But that's just my perspective. Or someone will look at it and say, oh no, I think it's better that, you know, if they were doing this or something that, because I was too attached to the fact that, you know, there was that timing thing or that I really wanted to stop down to get the background or I was meant to do the opposite or something that I, I, it's hard for me to let go of. But then if I get that outside perspective of the shot and that's, that's actually happened quite a lot with this series where there was this one or two, this one photo in particular that for me it wasn't even the, the A pile. It was like I printed it by accident kind of thing. But then quite a few people were like, I really like that. But in my mind I messed up the timing because it was something else, you know, that I had missed before that. And yeah, it just goes to show that it's good to have that outside point of view. [02:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [02:28:36] Speaker A: I love this shot with a cat. [02:28:37] Speaker C: Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. See like for me this is just a fun shot. [02:28:40] Speaker A: It's just, I just, I like, I love the, the washing hanging out. [02:28:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just the colors, the cat and the fact that it's the, the dark frame behind it. Yeah. Really cool old buildings in this part of the neighborhood. I would walk up and down. [02:28:55] Speaker A: But what, so, so when you're out, like what do you, what, what draws your eye? What are you looking for usually? [02:29:01] Speaker C: Well, see this shot you have on the screen right now with the kids and the stairs, probably what took my eye is the layering and the, just the different geometric shapes and all that. Because a lot of my influence, I guess, in terms of what I enjoy with black and white street photography historically is stuff kind of like this where it's multifaceted and it's a little bit multi layered and wider and not that I think, I don't really think much of this shot in particular. I love the setting and at least there are these two elements of the. The boy running up the stairs and there's another kid in the background. It's really hard to see on Instagram. And there's this sense of depth and, and layering and the stairs are going up because I don't realize this at the time, but when I look back at this stuff, I think, oh yeah, this is a little bit like one of my favorite Photographers Sergio Lorraine and he shot in. In Valparaiso in Chile. And there was like a similar theme of, you know, stairs going up and down in that city and of like an old world feeling and just this innocence of youth, of kids playing on the street and. And there's no smartphones in sight and there's no technology and just kind of this. Yeah. This emotional connection that I have for this particular place because I spent a couple of years as a kid when I was around this age. I was probably 8. Maybe these kids are a bit younger, playing on the streets, you know, like doing. And not much has changed. And it reminds me of my childhood and just being outside and having, you know, rival kids in the neighborhood or your own friends and. Yeah, it was like, you know. Yeah, the same things I was feeling when I was out on these streets. So a lot of it. [02:30:38] Speaker A: The older kids. [02:30:39] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So there's familiarity, there's nostalgia, there's an emotional connection and there's just the simplicity of geometric shapes, layers and whatever. Sometimes there's great light. Not. Not in this particular shot. But yeah, it could be just an aesthetic thing as well. [02:30:55] Speaker A: Phil Thompson says the stair shot is great with the lines going in two directions as well as the person climbing up with determination. [02:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:31:02] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Thanks, Phil. Yeah, the juxtaposition is sometimes interesting and. And it's so interesting. Right. I don't even think too much about when you've taken so many shots, you really need to let them marinate and to think about them and. And sit on them for a while before you can really grasp too much out of them. But I do enjoy this kind of thing. This is. Especially if there was a little bit more happening. I love this, like, old school, old style, black and white, gritty stuff. [02:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And what do you remember what this would have been shot on? This particular shot? [02:31:41] Speaker C: Probably 35 mil on. I know it was Ilford HP5 or Kentmere 401 or the other, but yeah, it's probably 35. I don't think it was 28. Yeah, if. If that's what you're asking about. [02:31:57] Speaker A: Yeah, just in just general, like. Yeah, it's always interesting me. I know, like, you guys that are far more accomplished with film. I do. I struggle to remember sometimes what film stock something was or what, you know, like, as time goes on and I get further detached from it, I'm like, what did I shoot that on? Unless I can see the scan, like, get to the folder where it. Where it's labeled from the scans, I'm like, I can't remember, what camera did I shoot that on? I don't know. Digital's got me lazy with that sort of stuff where it's all just. It's all in lightroom. [02:32:33] Speaker B: Yep. [02:32:35] Speaker A: What else can we look at? One other little collection of. Anything. Anything. [02:32:39] Speaker C: Sure. All right, if you're scrolling down, let's see what, like. Well, I guess even some of these, like, color shots. These are from Lebanon. And even the one with the. The stones, you know, the rock formations. That's from. From Turkey, from Cappadocia. And. And you can see I have, like, quite an inconsistent style of what I like to shoot, which I'm not complaining about. I love variety again. But some of these shots are just like. Because I enjoyed the moment and there was no particular intention to actually get them into a series or anything like that. But then maybe I will pull a few shots out of certain roles of film and put them into a series once I find their. Their fitment later on. Because at the time of exposure, I don't always have an intention to shoot for a series. Whereas the. The other stuff, the 35 mil, gritty street stuff, some of that I did go into knowing that it could work for a series. Yeah, this is just like. [02:33:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:33:39] Speaker C: Me just taking peaceful, almost touristy shots of whatever I was experiencing at the time. [02:33:45] Speaker A: Okay. So there's. There's times when you're. [02:33:49] Speaker C: When you're a selfie. Yep. See this. This color stuff that was from Lebanon, too, where it was, like, a quite different approach because this could, for example, be a future series where it's color and it's a different mood and. Yeah, it's a mixture of stuff here from. Yeah, See, this is me trying to find common threads with photos as well, where it's a lot of stuff from. That's already three different countries. We were Lebanon, Greece, and now Italy. All around the Mediterranean or. Or, you know, the connected seas of the Mediterranean, where there's, like a similar, you know, feeling or color scheme or light, and it's just my way of trying to see what works well together. [02:34:30] Speaker B: Yep. [02:34:33] Speaker C: So, yeah, I try not to take Instagram too seriously and have, like, a really consistent feed or whatever. [02:34:39] Speaker A: Yeah. The grid. You're not. You're not trying to do the grid in. In pantone shades or anything. [02:34:45] Speaker C: I mean, it looks cool and it's fun, I guess, to experiment with, but at the end of the day, you know, it's not the most important thing to me. It's just a great way to think about our own work. [02:34:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like Instagram's not your final output. That's so. So it's. It's not. Whereas some people, I think, do treat their, their Instagram feed as like, this is sort of my work, this is my portfolio, this is my collection of things. And so it's very highly curated and. Yeah, and which is a different. Yeah, Polished, different style of thing. Whereas you're sort of putting up little, little collections and, and experiments to lead to eventually a body of work, whether it's in a book or a collection or something like that. Is that, Is that right? [02:35:32] Speaker C: That's right, yeah. Because even something like the photo, for example, Greg, that you came to the. To Revolver and saw, I appreciate something like that much more than a photo that's going to be on Instagram and just once you've scrolled past it, it's. It's in the ether. Like hardly anyone's ever going to go back and see that. [02:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:35:50] Speaker C: But if a photo was there, being seen in person and appreciated as a print. There was another group exhibition thing that I got a photo into, actually. It was a street photography snapshot that I took in Melbourne. Got into the Public Records Gallery of Victoria, whatever they're called. [02:36:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yep. [02:36:08] Speaker C: Yeah, Archives. And it was just a competition thing where they said, enter a photo that has the theme of the transformation of public space or something like that. And yeah, it got in and there was a bunch of other great photographers who had photos that got in. I went to the opening, met some cool people, saw some other really cool work and just that one photograph, I feel like it had a life that was so much more valuable than just being posted to Instagram, which it was. And that's how it initially gained exposure. But I feel like it finally gained its, like, full form by being printed as this big. Bigger than a three, I think it was a two in a really nice frame put up and they get to keep it now as part of the, you know, the public archives. And that's really cool and meaningful to me. So, yeah, let alone making a book, which is my next aim. I think it's important not to, as photographers just over rely on things like social media, which is fine if that's what you're doing it for. If you just want to, like, enjoy the ride and you're not really too fussed about taking it to the next step, then yeah, you do you. But I think if photographers want to take themselves to the, the next level and take a little bit more seriously Forget Instagram. Be in a position where you could just lose your account and it wouldn't be a bother for you. Watch people like Daniel milner on, on YouTube, who's talking about the art form and the intention behind photography and the longevity of it. And not just the fluff and the, the hip cool things, which I love. And I, I'm, you know, guilty of promoting that and talking about these things and film emulations and whatever it might be. But then that's not the most important thing. I think if you really want to step up your photography, you know, not to sound preachy or anything, I didn't [02:38:01] Speaker A: know much about Daniel Milner. He crossed my feed somehow. I think he's got a new video out that I put on my list of, yeah, film is holding. [02:38:11] Speaker C: He stopped for a bit and then he, yeah, he came back. I noticed he came back. His stuff is amazing. Like, I've, I've mentioned him in videos I've done like five, six years ago because I've been watching stuff like, because people like him and John Free, who've been in the, the space and have this massive experience for years, that's something that I really try to grab onto whenever I find that like someone who's older than me or has this experience or has worked in the industry or just, you can tell they exude experience, you want to listen to them and not necessarily just like someone who's just this hip, young, cool kid on YouTube who, sure, they have like some cool, flashy photos, but then if I'm trying to gain experience, that's not who I'm going to turn to first. That's good for the eye candy, for a little bit of inspiration maybe. [02:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's, that's actually one of the reasons the podcast started was there like, obviously Daniel Milner takes the, the time to put his thoughts out into the world on YouTube, but there's so many photographers with amazing experiences and knowledge that they just don't have time to do that or the inclination or whatever. And that's, that was part of the reason why we, we wanted to have the podcast. And so we're like, hey, we can, we can try and rope someone in for two to three hours and just find out everything we can. And we've had people on that have had, you know, 50 year careers and they've never made a YouTube video. You know, like, that's not, that's not what they do. But their photography is amazing and they've got so much knowledge and it's just trying to get that out. [02:39:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:39:51] Speaker C: I'm so glad you guys are doing this because that's another one of the things that really helped inspire me in the beginning of my. My little street photography and YouTube journey was listening to interviews with great photographers on podcasts. So there was Candid Small Voice, Candid Frame, Ibario. That's his podcast. Yeah. [02:40:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:40:11] Speaker C: Amazing. That was one of my. Yeah, like his voice, man. Yeah. Compared to him, we are. [02:40:16] Speaker A: We're not. We are not podcasters. [02:40:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that was my bread and butter of, of like, auditory inspiration, at least to listen to. And I've discovered so many photographers that I checked out their work and inspired me. And just through listening to his interviews and the way he interviews is amazing as well. But yeah, we'd have great guests on. He had some of the greats. And the same with small talk. He's out of the uk Ben something. So many great podcasts out there I'm sure that you could find. But yeah, stuff like that is just rich, I think, with information, not just like, yeah, check out this latest film stock. And you know, again, that's cool. But yeah, it's not going to really feed you much information that you will actually use. [02:41:03] Speaker A: Fun fact, before we go on to our last topic, because we're running out of time, Daniel Milner is also. And I, and I wasn't that familiar with him, but that's also the name of one of the. The Hadar Desert race champions who I've photographed in the past. Exact same, spelling, identical. The world. I think we are living in a simulation of some sort because, you know, things like that happen to me all the time. I want to, I want to find out just, just quickly. I know you probably don't have time to go into it, but what have you learned about exploring alternatives for Adobe Lightroom? Because we're all kind of trapped in. In that box. I've got millions of photos in Lightroom catalogs, [02:41:48] Speaker C: so I'm in the middle of that journey. Yeah. So far I've learned that, like, Adobe has a pretty damn good monopoly, especially on us, like, who've been using it for so long, like wedding photographers. And you've just built this workflow, for example, that relies on their products. So I know that I would struggle to completely get away from a light room in particular, especially if I'm going to be doing experiments and doing YouTube videos about different things that have to do with that or rely on that and with shooting weddings, because I associate shoot for a company that needs me to deliver Lightroom catalogs. And smart previews and that could change in the future. But even then my habits would take a long time to change. And the catalogs that I've already built with all the edits attached to them and starting from scratch, you know, it's a bit of a pain. But ignoring that, there is some great stuff coming out. There are big strides being made by competing companies. I've really liked what I've experienced with the DXO software with Photo Lab. I think it works really well and it's actually, I kind of wish I started with something like that, although I know I wouldn't have because there were just so many points where I needed Lightroom again. And I was very new to try and Capture One earlier this year because of their new negative conversion feature. And I had played with Capture before on a friend's computer a little bit but actually using it showed me that like there's so many great things about competing softwares that are either as good as Photoshop or Lightroom or better, maybe not so much Photoshop. I think Photoshop is the most unique product that Adobe has that can't be that yet isn't replaced. But then Lightroom, yeah, I would encourage people to give DXO Photo Lab a try, give Capture One a try. And outside of that I've only just briefly played with some of the others. So I don't really speak about those in terms of raw photo editors. [02:43:50] Speaker A: Do you know what the pricing structures are for DXO and Capture Capture One? Are they subscription or outright or. [02:43:58] Speaker C: Well, the great thing is you have options. Because I, that's why I don't like about Adobe is it's all subscription. So with Capture One you can buy a subscription option or you can buy perpetual like pro version license dxo. I think it's mainly upfront. They might have a subscription option. I don't think they even have it actually. But the, what they really promote is that it's just a one off cost and you, you buy the, the packages. So you can buy Photo Lab, you can buy it with Pure Raw or whatever like you know, Film Pack collection and it's just a one off cost and that's it. Because if you think about your subscription costs in Adobe they for us Aussies like it more than doubled at one point. I don't know if you guys remember. Yeah, it went up. Yeah, like crazy. [02:44:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:44:43] Speaker C: And if you're paying it every year and I, when I do my taxes I notice like oh wow, Adobe was this much worth and then now I've downgraded to just the Lightroom plan, and that's still more than what I was paying for the photography plan before. [02:44:54] Speaker A: There's a Lightroom plan? [02:44:57] Speaker C: There is, yeah. Yeah. [02:44:58] Speaker A: I think I've got the Lightroom and Photoshop plan. I never. [02:45:01] Speaker C: That's what I used to have. What's that up to now? Like 40 bucks or something? [02:45:04] Speaker A: Oh, I don't know. I don't want to know because I [02:45:07] Speaker C: don't really use Photoshop all that much. So I was like, you know what? I hardly use Photoshop these days because, I don't know, I just don't use it. When I was in uni, I learned it and I can use it, but then I mainly use Lightroom, so I downgraded to the Lightroom only option, which was about 17amonth or 18.99. I don't know. But it's. It's reasonable. It's not so bad. [02:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll have. Because I remember I. I loved the old Nick Effects plugins. [02:45:37] Speaker C: Yeah, same. Which before it was even dxo. [02:45:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it changed hands multiple times or whatever. I think Google bought it at some point. Did Google sign it? [02:45:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, they did. They. They bought it and it was just the Nick collection. Google Nick. [02:45:50] Speaker A: That's right. [02:45:50] Speaker C: It's free. And then went back to dxo and it's being improved a lot now. They've really refined it and the way it interfaces with Lightroom, if you use that or if you just use DXO Photo Lab. [02:46:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's a free trial. Maybe we'll have to do a. Gosh, we could try and get him as a sponsor. Greg. Like, we should do a Camera Life Challenge where everyone that wants to will all download the free trial at the same time. And then we'll do a couple of episodes on what it was like to use it to try and learn it after using Lightroom. And anyone that's listening can try as well and give us their thoughts on what it's like to try when you're a bit of a stuck in the Lightroom ecosystem. But yeah, the fact that there's a free trial is pretty appealing. Yeah, it's like 30 days. [02:46:35] Speaker C: You don't even need to put your credit card in. Which is another thing I like because I did a whole video speaking about DXO and my experience with it. And I like that they don't ask you for your credit card if you're just wanting to try it. Because, you know, you can't always rely on remembering to Cancel. And I think there's a bit of a predatory thing about doing that, where you kind of know that, hey, about 5, 10 of people will forget to cancel or whatever it is, and then they'll get charged for a month or something. [02:46:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:47:00] Speaker A: So, yeah, so, okay, I'm just, I'm just looking at it. If you know this stuff, let me know. If you don't know, we'll just, we'll move on to other things. But it's. So there's DXO Photo Lab and then there's DXO Pure raw. Do they work together? Are they different bits of software? [02:47:16] Speaker C: They are, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. So Photo Lab is kind of like your Lightroom software with all the editing and the tools and the File Explorer and all that. Pure RAW is kind of like, if you think about it in Adobe terms, Camera raw, Adobe CAMERA raw, which is like just the bones of processing RAW files. And like, if you have a DNG or you want to apply some noise reduction and that can still interface with Lightroom or Photoshop, but if you want to edit your photos and play around with them, then Photo Lab is the software and they, they go together because Pure or has some additional algorithms for distortion correction or whatever it might be. [02:47:58] Speaker A: Right. That's what I was going to say, though. Like, if you have Photo Lab, why would you need Pure raw? I assume the RAW conversion is the same in that like as in you could, you could get the look that you get in Pure raw you could get in Photo Lab. Is that correct? Yeah. But then maybe it's got a few extra tools as well. [02:48:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. If you really want to dive in deep. Yeah, like you want to have all these different options for like, if you shoot on X Trans sensors especially, you'll probably like DXO if you do the trial. Both of you guys that. I feel like X Trans. It's not that I've ever owned Fuji for too long. I had an X100 for a while. But there's this weird disagreement with Adobe's software and X Trans files. I think that it just seems to process them better or give you a nicer result, especially when you zoom in and things like those worm artifacts when you use even Capture one or dxo. And there's a lot of like, great options for, for how the software treats those different files as well. [02:49:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's one thing. That's one of the things that, other than the perpetual, like paying the, paying the fee every month. The other thing is I'm just, I'm not loving the way that Adobe treats my Canon RAW files. I don't know what it is, it's just, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not enjoying it. The camera profiles that are in there aren't the way that I can't get it to look like a Canon JPEG by just using the camera profiles and [02:49:29] Speaker C: doing the camera matching. [02:49:31] Speaker A: Yep, I've noticed that it doesn't match. The camera matching doesn't match. [02:49:35] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Something else going on in the, the background, I think with that. And it is also, I think a software thing. I think if you. Because I've had the same sentiment expressed to me by people who use for example Capture One Full time or DXO as their main software where they say, yeah, the files from whatever X camera look better in that software. Which is, yeah, if you do a side by side test, that'd be a cool way to find out because it depends on the camera. [02:50:03] Speaker A: I watched a YouTube video the other day of a guy that did side by side with Lightroom and capture one with cannons, I think. And yeah, it was really interesting the way that it handled like some neon highlights and stuff like that. Just completely different rendering of certain colors. [02:50:20] Speaker C: And you'd be surprised because we all just think like, oh, that's the RAW file. It's only going to look one way. But that's actually not the case. It's how it's processed and then they, you know, got like layers on top of that like Adobe RGB or if you're using this color space or and what your monitor is showing you and all these different complications. But yeah, there's, there is that importance of if you're using a RAW converter or software reader, whatever it is, there is going to be a difference from brand to brand. And I'm sure there's other great softwares out there that I haven't really tried. So I would encourage people to just experiment, give it a try. Because I'm kind of like that, I'm habitual. So I just felt locked in. I'm like, yeah, it works fine and you know, it feels too intimidating to learn a whole new software, but there's no harm trying it. There's always a free trial you can just, you know, mess around with with a bunch of files. [02:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, free trial is amazing. I might even try it just for a certain set of work so I don't feel like I'm having to learn everything for everything. It's like, hey, maybe I'll just put my personal work in into DXO for a month and just see that's what [02:51:20] Speaker C: I, yeah I just put a few different things like I put a bunch of Japan photos in there and I put some other stuff that I thought like all right, it feels separate at least so I don't feel like it's kind of double handling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:51:31] Speaker B: That's a good way to go about it. Well, I am very conscious of time boys. Yeah, we're just, just approaching the, the three hour mark. It is almost midday. That's right. I am very conscious of time. Justin, did you have any last, last minute questions? [02:51:49] Speaker A: Well mam, me and Muse asked before about cameras and so I thought I wanted to save it because hash we normally ask everyone like what their zombie apocalypse camera is or their desert island camera or their whatever insert end of the world scenario thing camera here. But I'm going to change it a little bit for you. I'm going to allow you to. We normally say just one camera. I'm going to let you pick two. I'm going to let you pick a film camera and a digital camera. You know, lenses as well. But if you had to run out the door and grab just one of each, what would you grab? It could also be something you don't own yet and you just, you just want. That would be fine too. [02:52:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:52:28] Speaker C: What would you pick? Well, yeah, definitely my, my Leica Ma and probably a 35 mil. If I had to just have one lens that would be my one desert island camera. But you know what if I had a second one right now and it was really a situation where I wasn't shooting for work and it was just me doing like personal stuff. This little Rico GR has been a lot of fun and I could imagine that being a good pairing for. Not that I own this, I have [02:52:54] Speaker A: to give it back but I think of the world. Yeah, they've got other things to worry about. [02:52:59] Speaker C: The other thing is it complements. Yeah it's a good like complimentary B cam to another style. Like you know 35 mil on that camera could have color. This is 28 mil. It's a bit snappier. It's black and white so there's a good coverage there. [02:53:19] Speaker A: If you were, if, if you were thinking about that camera to purchase for yourself, would you also consider the color sensor version? Would you want to test that too and see if the black and white, the dedicated black and white is worth the. I guess the limitation [02:53:35] Speaker C: given my situation. I wouldn't mind having the monochrome sensor because I do Love black and white. And I would use it primarily with black and white in mind. But yeah, I'm not such a stickler to be like. Well, the, the color files converted to black and white aren't as good. Yeah, they're still going to be good enough. I don't think it's a big deal. And admittedly these are expensive. They're not cheap. [02:53:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:53:56] Speaker C: Extra costs. Yeah, it's, it's quite pricey. So if I was in the market, I would definitely consider even an, an older model if I had to. Like a GR3, which is still a great camera. Yeah, yeah. Which I played with. I played with the three for a while. I liked that. Yeah. Great fun. There's nothing like it. That's the thing about them. There's. They have a unique segment of the market captured. If only they had, you know, the flash back in it or a couple of other things. I think it would be perfect. [02:54:23] Speaker A: Would you like it to have a viewfinder? [02:54:28] Speaker C: It would be cool actually, if, if it was a nice clear viewfinder and if. Yeah, I don't know though, because I feel like it's so small that the way you, you want to shoot it is kind of just in front of you and then it would be nice to have the option because I have a little, I had used point and shoots. I have a nice little viewfinder in them and it's, it's kind of cool. Especially if it's glaring out or you want to just shoot from eye level. Yeah, it's nice to have it. But then, yeah, I, it would make it larger, I guess. But again, for me, like, you know, the camera is already too small. Like it feels like the buttons are tiny and, and even if it was say 1.3 times its current size, I think it could still fit in most pockets. Yeah, you'd get, you would get the weather ceiling, you would get improved battery life maybe. You know, I don't know how tight are people's jeans that, you know, you can't fit a long post. [02:55:25] Speaker A: Baggy jeans are coming back cargo, you know, it's all good. [02:55:29] Speaker C: Yeah, so it's, it's cute though. It's so small. Like I took it to, you know, your friend's house or get togethers or whatever and it just encourages you to have something ready to just snap instead of using your phone. And it gives you better results than that. [02:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But as you say, like, what are they, three grand? [02:55:46] Speaker C: So expensive. Like two, six or something. Yeah, it's a lot of money because there's Probably a lot of other digicam alternatives that you could get. [02:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:55:55] Speaker C: Have a flash for example. Because that is something that I feel like is sorely missing from this. Especially if you want to take it to parties or indoor. I mean, sure, low light performance is amazing. I'm not saying you need a flash because it can't handle low light, but it's a different look. Sometimes you want Flash to fill in that foreground or whatever. [02:56:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [02:56:12] Speaker B: Yep. [02:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially they remove the TT every day [02:56:14] Speaker C: capability from this, which was a weird move. Yeah. I'm sorry to go on another tangent, but that's already something that I know I'm going to mention in my video because there's a hot shoe and it has a bunch of pins on it. But you can't use old Pentax TTL flashes the way you could with the Ricoh 3 and the. The GR2, which is strange. So they have their own Flash, but it works in like auto flash mode, which I'm sure is fine, but it's just begs the question, why would you nerf that feature if it was already there before? Especially because I would have loved to use like. Yeah, because you know, Godox made those nice little im whatever it was flashes for the Ricoh, but they probably wouldn't work with this according to my research. Like that was something I was keen on trying because I could get my hands on a nice little third party flash. But then, yeah, I don't mind. Maybe I'll just use one in auto or manually. It's not a big deal, just a strange move. Yeah, it is. [02:57:10] Speaker B: Yep. [02:57:11] Speaker C: Interesting tangents. [02:57:12] Speaker A: Tangents. Oh yeah. We all day and we do. [02:57:15] Speaker B: No, don't be sorry. It's what we build a show on. It's tangent. [02:57:19] Speaker A: That's right. [02:57:19] Speaker C: The same here, man. Yeah. If whenever I do live streams and. And conversations with other people, I just go off and it's good when I'm not live because then I can edit. But I'm sorry to your audience who had to listen to me blabber on about Flash or whatever. Many. [02:57:33] Speaker A: They love it. That's what they're here for. [02:57:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:57:36] Speaker B: Yeah. It's more authentic. Most definitely. [02:57:39] Speaker A: Okay. Should we. [02:57:40] Speaker B: All right, should we wrap? Well, yeah, I think. I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Hashem, on behalf of all of us here at the Camera Life podcast and today's sponsors, Lucky Straps, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your journey. But also providing such in depth levels of information and thought into your processes. I'm sure that everyone walked away from this. Well, you know, I have to say certain nice things to you, but I'm sure that everyone walked away just gleaning a little bit more knowledge about the craft that we all love and share. So for that, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time and look forward to seeing what you, what you get up to in the future as well. [02:58:21] Speaker C: Thank you both. It's just. Yeah, it was really fun to chat and hopefully we can do it again sometimes. [02:58:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Hey, anytime you want to jump on a show on a Monday night, if you see something that you're interested in or if you've released a video or something, you want to talk more about a camera review or anything. Yeah, we do Mondays at 7:30 every week and so always happy to have an extra on just to chit chat [02:58:45] Speaker C: for how I should. Yeah, I mean we're in the same time zone. It's awesome. [02:58:48] Speaker A: That's right. [02:58:50] Speaker C: That's a great advantage. [02:58:52] Speaker A: Feel free anytime you want. And otherwise everyone make sure you head over to pushing film on YouTube and subscribe if you're not already and just dig into the hundreds and hundreds of videos that are on there about all things film and some digital. So and especially yeah, I'd be following along for. I will be following along for what to do for lightroom alternatives in the future. There's already a great DXO video on there, so go and check it out. [02:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah, cool. [02:59:21] Speaker C: And yeah, thanks to everyone who joined on the live. If I didn't, if I missed any [02:59:26] Speaker A: comments, sorry, we probably missed. We probably appreciate them but we'll bring a few up right now as we roll some. You say goodbye. [02:59:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:59:37] Speaker A: Mimo Bass says clap clap. Good to have you. Thanks for listening. David Mascara says good show to come back. [02:59:43] Speaker C: Back on. [02:59:43] Speaker A: Thanks guys. Well, it's good to have you back, David. Send some photos in when you get a chance but no stress. Whenever you are ready and have time. Phil Thompson says thanks guys. Another great show and very interesting listen to Hashem, especially growing up through the film days. Paul had to go earlier. He says gotta go. Cheers guys. Phil Thompson also says, oh, DXO pure raw for low lit light files like Auroras and Astros. What else? Who else was here today? Philip Johnson said. Thanks gents. Special thanks to Hashem. Great. Something I don't know. I'm losing my track of train of thought. Mia Muse was here. Everybody was here. It was a party. And I guess we'll see you guys on the next one. [03:00:27] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, guys. Have a good one. [03:00:30] Speaker C: Thank you.