From Haute Couture to Portrait Prize | Bronwyn Kidd on Film, Fashion & Finding Her Style (EP156)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Everybody. And welcome back to the Camera Life podcast. It is 12th February, 2026, and we are joined today by Australian award winning fashion and portrait photographer Bronwyn Kid. G', day, Bronwyn. Welcome to the show. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Morning. Thank you. I love that intro. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Did I? That's the first time I've seen it. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Very nice. Yeah. [00:00:45] Speaker C: Wow. It's a work in progress. But I was like, how do we kind of show, you know, the range of people that we've had on the show and just, you know, give it a nice little intro. We're getting there. We're getting there. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And of course, my lord and savior and yours, Justin Castles is here as well. How are you? [00:01:02] Speaker C: I'm good, I'm good. Yeah. I've got two coffees, a water. I'm ready to go. [00:01:07] Speaker B: And I imagine that your personal assistant prepared all of that for you. [00:01:11] Speaker C: One of the coffees. She did, yes. She's wonderful. Thank you. [00:01:14] Speaker B: She's wonderful. Broman, it's so good to have you on the show. We're very excited to talk to you today. As I mentioned the intro, you're an award winning photographer and most recently you won the. Let me see if I can get the pronunciation right. You won the Martin Cantor Portrait Prize 2025 at the last year's Ballarat International Photo. You're gonna have to say it for me, Bronwyn. [00:01:38] Speaker A: Bien. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Thank you. Biennale. There it is. That's how you say it, folks, in case anyone was wondering at home now, you know, don't worry, we've all had. [00:01:46] Speaker A: The whole spelling it. [00:01:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Every time. Every time. So that's. That's absolutely massive. And we've. We spoke to the CEO of the Bay. Thank you. And, and recently I saw your interview with Harry and Sally from When Harry Met Sally podcast, which is Sally Brown, Bill and Harriet Tarbeck, who we've also had on the show. But we'll dig into that. But maybe I thought before we just say good morning to the folks in the chat, we'll just give them a moment to get over the. The amazing intro that Justin made. Let's. Let's dive in with a question in your bio on your website. I think it's Dr. James McCarty McArdle. McArdle. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:36] Speaker B: My glasses fixed Bronwyn's. Dr. James said Bronwyn's style is nostalgic for the greats of horticulture. For those playing along at home. How do you define horticulture? Photography? [00:02:50] Speaker A: Haute couture. I didn't want to. I didn't want to. [00:02:55] Speaker B: I tried. Okay. [00:02:57] Speaker C: I was, I was. Because isn't horticulture gardening? [00:03:00] Speaker A: Well, I. [00:03:03] Speaker B: Was born, I was born in the Northwest. Okay. Just. This is what you get. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you know, you think of Chanel and you know, Yves Saint Laurent on to think of the runways and, and collections, fashion collections being shown. That's where the style begins. That's haute couture. It's not off the hanger, it's not ready to wear. It's a different thing. So when you walk into, when you walk into say Hazara, that's called ready to wear and it's, they do collections, but it's, it's of kind, kind of, it's there ready for you. I, I think it's really only since the 1950s that that's happened. And, and before that, you know, a lot of the, the ball gowns, a lot of the really dressy garments were made in very small batches and, and also probably fitted to the people that were buying them. So you might have seen in movies when there's people sitting in a, a salon and they're witnessing a collection being shown and they're saying, oh, I'll have that one, and I'll have that one. You know, that, that's what it, that's what it was. But it's also where the initial ideas come from. So even in the picture behind me, that's a Ferragamo dress. I, I, I suppose because that's 90s, it still may have been classed as haute couture, but definitely hardy. Amy's who I worked for in the early 90s, did her haute couture, but also ranges of ready to wear that people could just take off the, the hanger. So yeah, it's, it's a, it's a genre, it's a time, it's a conjures up a romance. There's a lot to it. And James, James. Actually, sorry, I've just got a, I don't know why my email's coming through. I just turned that off. James was he, he was actually my high school art teacher. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah, so. And I can talk more about him later. He's fantastic. He's wonderful man. And, and, and he's, yeah, he wrote that bio for me. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:20] Speaker A: So, yeah. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Oh, what a, what a lovely full circle moment to have, you know, one of your first teachers in, in craft and art to, yeah. To actually say those beautiful words about you question to that in, you know, 2026, a world of extremely fast fashion, is there still A place for haute couture photography. Did I say it right? Did I get it right? [00:05:44] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, you did fast. You did really well. Yes. I mean, look, it's definitely. There's a lot of costume coming out in photography and fashion. There's always a place for more alternative costumes, imagery. There are alternative magazines, there's. The designers are still coming up with that wilder end of the range. You know, we, we know there's a lot of E commerce happening, but I guess, you know, if you look hard enough, you will find other more sort of inventive photography. And I guess when I started out, it felt like it was mostly that. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:27] Speaker A: But, you know, it's changed so much since the Internet. But I felt like every shoot I was doing had that element of creating something special. You, you weren't there as a. You know, of course there were catalogs and things like that to shoot, but you could seek out doing something a lot more creative quite easily. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess there's also, you know, just reflecting on that when designers, fashion designers create a piece and, you know, your role is to document that piece. You're just as important a part of that end to end process because, you know, obviously a designer wants someone to see their work. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:11] Speaker B: And that's, that's where your role as the, the fashion photographer steps in. And it's, it's a cataloguing, it's an archiving of, of the fashions that, you know, once were or emerging. So I think it's a, I think it's a wonderful genre. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah, there's, there's kind of a very fine line between, I mean, editorial photography for magazines so say for Bazaar or Vogue or whatever magazine allowed, allows you to be more creative with the gun and maybe not show all the detail. But more recently, most of the, most of the, the images that are in the fashion pages are advertiser advertisements really. And you have to show all the detail. So that has changed also. You know, there's a lot less scope to do something kind of just high contrast or, you know, that where you lose it and you've just got a silhouette. I don't know, It's. It's a tricky one. [00:08:13] Speaker B: There's not balance, isn't it? [00:08:15] Speaker A: It's a balance. Yeah, yeah. And famous photographers have been not given more work because they haven't shown that detail. Like there's a photographer, Lillian Bassman, who I, Whose work I really love. She, she was kind of told by. I'm not too sure if it was bizarre or Vogue, you know, that she. She didn't show the buttons and bows and enough because she actually printed through the back of the paper. And so the image was. [00:08:44] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Was. So Man Ray actually taught her to do that, and she actually printed through the back of the paper, and so the image was kind of diffused. So this is in the dark room. But that was her look, and it was beautiful, really beautiful. But she didn't show the garment enough. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:09:03] Speaker C: So even. Even in that world of, like, so much creativity, there's still these constraints around what different people want to get out of. Of what you're doing. Like, you know, there's always someone that's like. That's not what we were thinking. [00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker C: No matter where you are in the. In the piece of the puzzle, I guess. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:24] Speaker C: And I'm sure that that potentially even happens to the designers, depending on where they're. They're fitting in sometimes as well. You know, everyone's work gets scrutinized as to whether it's achieving the goal of whoever's paying or whatever. Yeah, it's. [00:09:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be tough. [00:09:41] Speaker C: Tough to navigate. [00:09:44] Speaker A: It is, it is. And as the photographer, you've got to wear a lot of hats on the day. You know, you've got to appease everybody, but you've also got to get your vision across. So it's a real juggling act. And it all happens so quickly in your head, and it's managing people. I mean, there are photographers that, you know, I know of and have read about and have heard about that, you know, put up a black curtain, and nobody sees what they do. And I think digital made it hard for them, because, I mean, digital made it hard for all of us to just do what we were visualizing for ourselves. Because before digital, you know, you look through the camera and what you saw was what you saw. Like, nobody could criticize it. Nobody was looking at. Out at a screen. There weren't 10 people around the screen live, you know. [00:10:36] Speaker B: 10 million. [00:10:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Or 10 million. It was. There was a lot more freedom, but there was less expectation on the day, I guess, as well, of what. How much would be achieved. And, you know, now it's quite a. [00:10:51] Speaker C: Would you say there was more trust in the photographer then? Because, like you say, they couldn't see anything, so they. They had made the decision to use you or whomever, and. And then the trust was given on that day, and then everyone was. We'll wait and see what comes of it later before we make any judgments. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Definitely. I mean, particularly working in London, because there were so many photographers there, you kind of had to create your, have your own style and be chosen for that style. You know them, they're. There could be 20 photographers going for that job, but you got it because you had the right style. I mean that still happens here as well, but particularly in London, it was fierce competition and so you kind of created. I created a style that was particularly mine, although a lot of people said at the beginning it was kind of reminiscent of the old favorites Parkinson and people like that. And, and I had a bit of criticism, I guess on that, that it was too, it was very similar to those photographers work and which I take as a compliment really. But you know, when you're on the shoot, you, you had to, you, you did a Polaroid and, and then they had to trust after seeing the Polaroid, which was. Sometimes you're like, oh my God, I hope the picture's better than the Polaroid because Polaroid. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Can we just use this, could we just use this little square of magic? [00:12:31] Speaker A: Polaroid's really good. And, and then of course, you know, when you get the film back and you know, you, you then make it, it. They've kind of all forgotten about the Polaroid because of course you took it home and. Yeah, but yeah, there's, there was a lot of trust put in you because you know that they, everyone turned up just expecting that magic to happen and. Yeah, and hopefully, you know, often it did and, and, and you just kind of went with the flow and, and created and, and there was, it was, it was kind of like a different energy. Not saying the energy now is bad or anything. It's just was a different energy. [00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah. To follow up on that, do you think that especially in your world that the move to digital throttled creativity a little bit for a while? Definitely when you had that trust to shoot here's the Polaroid. But you're going to have to wait until I develop and print and scan or whatever it is the process may be. Has that move to digital eroded that trust a bit? People want stuff instantly. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I look, I think so. And I had something I was going to say and now I've. Oh. When I first started in digital, you know, there was a lot of uncertainty and things being throwing at you like moire coming off the garment. So you get these, you know, terrible patterns and, and you think, oh my God, I've been working for 15 years and I've never had this problem and now I look stupid, stupid because I've got this thing here that won't go away and how are we going to repair it? And, and I think the uncertainty on set of the photographer I know for my myself probably definitely changed the vibe on the on set because you had all these new curveballs coming at you. Whereas before I knew what film stock I was using, I knew what I was going to experience, expose it at, I knew who was going to process it, I knew how we were going to print it. But that changed for a lot of most shoots. I'd go in and talk to the printer beforehand and say, this is what I'm after. What do you reckon? And they might say, well, why don't we go, you know, this film, shoot it a bit under. We'll, we'll, we'll process it a bit more to get that look and then we're going to the dark room and then we'll pre flash and we'll do all these tricks on it and okay, yeah, I get okay. And then you go into your shoot and you know what you're doing. But yeah, when we went to digital it was. The dark room was right there next to you. There was no coffees in between or, you know, just chats or going away. Thinking about it was so instantaneous that it was actually quite, for me, I, I found it quite frightening. And when I came back from England 2004, people were already quite heavily into digital here, so they were a lot more further along than what I was and you know, had to get a great digital operator because I, and my exposures on the first frame would be correct, like everything would be correct because I'm still working with a light meter, I know what I'm doing. But then, you know, I needed the lab to be equal to my lab in London, you know, but sitting next to me and working really quickly and it was quite a scary time, you know, also choosing what camera to buy and, and I think all that uncertainty, it definitely would have shown me up as a, you know, oh, does she really know what she's doing? I don't know. But I was only so far into my career that I couldn't say. I wasn't, I wasn't 60 or something and going into digital I was like 30 something, early 30s and, and, and I'd already had this career in film but I wasn't ready to give it up because we'd gone into digital. But by the same token, it was a big thing to get my head around. [00:16:45] Speaker C: Yeah, was the pressure to move coming from, from every angle to move to. Was there any option for you to Just be like, hey, I'm. I'm a film photographer through and through. Or. Or at that point, because you could do that. Now there are people that would say, oh, no, my medium's film. I just. That's how I shoot. Um, yeah, well, that would potentially get accepted. But back then, was there too much pressure? [00:17:06] Speaker A: No. Yeah. And. And there was only one. There was Labx who were doing film for a little while and then they closed. And then there was a guy down in Williamstown who was printing and. And he was really the only printer I could find. I mean, now for my artwork, I work with a printer in Sydney and. And it's film that I'm often printing or I've got a whole process around that we can talk about. But no, people wanted to see it straight away. And I think it's only in the last couple of years that films made a reappearance, really. And I don't know who. Who's shooting whole fashion shoot on film. You know, if it's not an editorial, but because so expensive. It's like $50 a roll more. You know, it's. And maybe then they're scanning the neg, but it's going through. It's. It's not as bespoke as it was before. Like they're going through uni machine, you know, machines that our film used to go through when it went to Amcal Chemist. You know, it's a bit of a different process. It's. Than what it was like, it was very highly attuned before. There's a lab in London called Tapestry who only do film, and they're fantastic. Sorry, not Tapestry. They'll. They'll be angry at me for that. They all left Tapestry to create Bayer, which is part of the Bayer Tapestry, you know, the big Tapestry. And they moved up the other side of Oxford street and. And they've been going since about 2002 maybe, and they just do film and. And you know, hundreds and hundreds of roles come in every day. It's pretty amazing. [00:18:59] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Of 120. Yeah. So that's. That's great. [00:19:06] Speaker B: It's great to see. [00:19:07] Speaker A: It's fantastic. Yeah. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Because it's. It's like so many crafts, you know, we don't want. We don't want to lose those skills. We don't want to lose that. That magic that happens in a dark room or happens when you, you know, when you finally process a film and you look at the neg as it dries and you think, yeah, that's going to be it, that's going to be the one. It's different with digital, obviously. And like you, I learned film photography in art school, but then I had a big gap in photography where I didn't have to make that transition into digital. I was doing other things with my life. Before we move on and get a little bit deeper into your story, maybe we should say good morning to some folks. Justin, I should actually. [00:19:49] Speaker C: Yeah. There's a few people in the chat Thursday morning. Everyone's probably at work. Lucinda Goodwin is here. Good to see you. Ian Thompson, David Moscaro from San Francisco ltk. Good morning. Philip Johnson, Stuart Lyle, Paul's here. This new who Pugsy972, I think you're new. Good to see you join us. Throw it, throw a question in throwing. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Some shame about how I pronounce haute couture. [00:20:18] Speaker C: It's possibly going to be on the highlight reel of this podcast for 2026. Was wonderful. [00:20:24] Speaker B: Thanks, boss, thanks. Well, good morning everybody and welcome back to, as we said, the Camera Life podcast. We're joined today by Bronwyn Kidd, who was an award winning fashion, portrait and fine art photographer. So let's roll back the clock a little bit. Let's talk about when your first spark for photography became obvious to you. What was that situation like for you? [00:20:54] Speaker A: Look, I wasn't very good at school, so academically I found it really hard to concentrate and we were doing art. I moved schools in year nine. We had a great art class, art teachers, couple of teachers, including James McArdle. And I think this learning about the history of art opened up my eyes to a more creative way of thinking. I'd done a bit of dance, I'd done a few different things, you know, crafty things after school before, but I hadn't really explored it. And my, my parents loved movies, you know, and they, they loved getting dressed up and going out and doing, you know, going to different balls and things that would happen in the 70s. And, and so there was this kind of level of glamour that was there. So once I discovered fashion photography and I discovered, you know, I started to see and hear about people like Richard Avedon and Cecil Beaton and people like that. I really started to, I think sort of merge the movies and the photography. I mean, you see Funny Face movie and that's, you know, all about Richard or Based on Richard Avenon or Blow Up David Bailey. And the more you kind of, I kind of got interested and the more I learned, the more excited I got. But I guess, you know, it started with I Was. I really liked this band that was around Melbourne. You probably remember them, they'll cook kids in the kitchen. [00:22:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. [00:22:40] Speaker A: And. And they had this really good style and. And it was kind of like a new style of music that came out. I guess at the time it was pop, but, you know, they're accessible, so. And my dad had bought a new camera. Camera. And so I just took the camera with me to concerts and. And then I thought, oh, this camera is a bit of a rite of passage. And ended up on stage taking photos and things like that. Then got back to school and on the Monday and processed the film in the dark room. And often there's nothing on it, you know, it's badly exposed. Then we'd have to get out potassium ferrocyanide and try and get some. Some kind of image, the latent image there. And. And that's kind of where it started. So then that I think making. And if I think about it now, it was actually the making, the making of something that was like, oh, actually, I'm enjoying this. I'm not sitting down, writing an essay or doing maths or, you know, and all of that's kind of in it, but it's in the making. I'm actually making. I'm actually touching something. Something. I'm actually making something. I'm actually creating something. And in high school, my. My pictures that I made, I made clothes for. For the. The photos that I made. And. And we went into amazing houses like Labassa, which I got access to. So I was doing like a producer's role, I was doing the costume role. And then I'd take the photo and then I'd go to the dark room and. And I think it's that whole kind of the creation, creating something that I thought, do you know what? I actually, actually enjoy this. And I don't think I'm like, I can do it. Whereas so many things at school I just couldn't do, you know, I just wasn't. Didn't have it, didn't understand it. Didn't understand, you know, why does it. Why is it X? Why is it not, you know, in maths, why is it always. [00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah, well, trigonometry certainly come in handy in my life. It saved me more than once, you know. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I just didn't get it. I just didn't get it. But I got this. I got the romance, I got the. I got the dreaming, I got the making, I got the collaborations. I got. I got it. Like, I understood it and I really liked it and then I just got really hungry for it to make more. [00:25:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good term for it to get hungry. I like that. I really like that a lot. And so you, you know, you, you obviously your folks were very supportive and you've, you talked about James being one of your year nine teach and you've still and then you know, having that, that bio written by, by him is pretty amazing. So having such a strong hungry passion for photography at such a young age, where did that, where did that, where were your sights set next and what, what took place? [00:25:33] Speaker A: Well, I wanted to get into RMIT and well actually I wanted, I thought I wanted to get into Prahran College which is actually where James did and he just put on that big pan exhibition that was on at Museum of Australian Photography which was, he was behind that, which was pretty fantastic. And I, but I went for the interviews and he said to me, oh, you'll get into rmit. Anyway, I did get into RMIT and I started the course but I just, I just found it, I found it hard. I found it um, back then it was quite science based even though I was in the art stream and, and I think I was just a bit too young. I just wasn't ready. I just wanted to make what I want to make. I didn't want the whites particularly to fall within a scale or the blacks to be, you know, I just kind of wanted it to be. I just wanted to take the picture and and so I didn't do too well at that. I didn't pass first year, I, I went into part time and second year and then I found photographer Andrew Vukasov who I don't know if you've met Andrew but you should interview him as well. He's in New York at the moment showing his aerial photography. I can send you his details and. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that'd be great. [00:26:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:54] Speaker A: He had a studio in Carlton above Vanbar with Joe Vittorio and John Palera. [00:26:59] Speaker B: Fanbar that used to be my weekend haunt. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and he was, I was introduced to him by a friend who I'd gone to RMIT with who was working in Vanbar and we just hit it off and he said, well, why don't you come and assist me? So I worked for him and, and waitressed in the evenings and, and it was really, I mean he was highly creative and he had a, we had a dark room there. We were just working till 3 and 4 in the morning. You know, after waitressing I'd go back there and, and we'd I don't know, we might be at St Kilda beach stealing sand for a shoot the next day or, or palm frong off somebody from, from someone's garden to make a shadow or. He was, you know, he was very hands on and, and like me kind of love to create, so I assisted him and, and, and, and things just kind of spiraled. I just kept KE getting more, I got more assisting work after that with people like Jackie Henshaw and they created a studio in South Yarra called Limelight. Tim Denef and so I was really working with the Melbourne fashiony people. Yeah, photographers did some other work, but mostly fashion, some still life and things like that, but mostly fashion. And I do remember George's, which was a department store in Melbourne, put out a call out for photography and Jackie got this really big campaign and we had a model come in from America and oh my God, I was just like, she is incredible. Like, I really saw magic when she was on set. And of course it was, it was just a white background, but Jackie had her standing on a Perspex sheet on crates and you know, board, crates, board, perspective sheet and then the background and it was all very clean. And then we had the great, you know, fluta light on her. So it was like this big spotlight and she was wearing this beautiful Armani dress. And they sent with the dress a perfume. I can't remember who it was by, but it was like a thousand dollars, this perfume. And I was just like, yes, I love this. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah, this is the life for me. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah, this is my, this is where I need to be. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an amazing moment at such a young age too. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I was like 21, 22, 21 maybe. I just thought, this is where I need to be. And then the recession hit, Melbourne and, and I just thought, well, I could go to Sydney or I could go to London. And I ended up getting a one way ticket to London. And then I feel like there was a clean slate and I could go after those things, those really high, beautiful, expensive, you know, things. And I felt like I felt kind of free being there, I guess, to be something new and to want something different. And, and, yeah, and, and I think, yeah, I think definitely that shoot with Jackie was a bit of a launching pad for my, I mean, I always love beautiful things, but it wasn't like there in front of me. Like it was that day in that, that Armani dress, that model and that bottle of perfume, you know. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect combination. [00:30:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker C: Wow. So, okay, so you, you made a plan to buy A one way ticket. Did you have anything like ready to go when you got like, what was, tell me about the actual plan? Like you're like, all right, I'm going to move to London. One way ticket then what? [00:31:04] Speaker A: That's it? That's it. [00:31:07] Speaker C: So you land in London and you, and you go to a hotel? [00:31:11] Speaker A: No, no, my, actually my sister, sister. I had gone to London a couple of years before. Andrew bought me a ticket to Paris and as payment for working for him and for two years, Paris and, and he said and, and when. And, and I flew over with a model. So I'm kind of backtracking a bit now. I went to Paris with a model and Andrew had a shoot on in Paris for Gelati Jeans company and he was doing something else and he was traveling. Anyway, so I went over and I met him there and then after we'd done the shoot he said you should stay. And I was like, well, I don't have any money. I've got a MasterCard and $500 on that and about, I don't know, $100 in cash or something, like nothing. And anyway, I stayed and I assisted some photographers in Paris and, and I didn't speak French so that was really difficult. But I worked on some beautiful shoots. One with a photographer called Sophie Chevalier, who's the wife of Pascal Chevalier who's quite famous and, and just that was for Paris Opera. But I was like third assistant and otherwise. Then I'd started traveling and I traveled around and I ran out of money and I came home in debt and, and then I, when I arrived home as the plane landed I was like, oh, I'm going back and okay. And I think I probably had done that shoot with Jackie before this. Anyway, so I basically came back and just spent a year earning money. Back then it was like a hundred and twenty dollars for a day assisting. And I was, I just saved up money and I bought a ticket. It was like 701 way to London and I'd, I had gone to London on that trip to Paris and my sister was living in London and so she gave me the details of the girl she lived with and I wrote to her and I said I'm coming over. And Ginny said I've got a spare room, it's like 35 pounds a week or something. And, and so I stayed, it's in South London with Ginny and, and then, then, you know, then there's a whole longer story that goes on after that. But I, I basically left with a suitcase and with my Towel and everything. Like you go, you know, on a holiday. Holiday. And I think that towel lasted about six years because I could afford to buy another one. [00:33:44] Speaker C: That's so good. [00:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and really, you know, you just had to. I arrived and the first day I arrived, I contacted the association of Photographers. I went there and visited because that was like you could go to their office. I got a list of photographers. I went to bookstores and looked through magazines and tried to focus. All new people, but all new names. But you know, David Bailey, Terence Donovan, you know, they were all Clive Arrowsmith, they were all still working. Patrick Litchfield studio was still going. You know, all these photographers were still working then. So you could contact them. Them. I did go to Patrick Litchfield Studio, but I didn't, I just walked past it. I just found it. But I, I did stalker. Yes. But I did, I did ring Clive Arrowsmiths. He, he was a Vogue studio photographer with Bailey around that time, maybe a little bit later. More famous in the 70s, I think, than the 60s. And he's still working now. And I loved a shoot he did for a store called Harvey Nichols. And I saw it wasn't in a magazine, but when I went to the store, like you pick up pamphlets and things and his name was on it. So as a credit. So I found, got his. I don't know how I got his number, but I did maybe through the association and I rang him and left a message and he paged me back because I had a pager. Yeah, and he, he paged me back and then I called him back and he said, I don't normally call assistance, but you've got a Welsh name and I'm Welsh. So I said, well, so. So that was it worked for him a couple of times. Not, not too much. He had a full time assistant, but that's all, that's what you had to do. You just had to think, oh, I like that work. I'll give them a call. You know, I like that. Oh, I saw that campaign. Who did it. Oh, okay, I'll give them a call. And it was cold calling. Like it was really. There were some photographers that said, look, you, you don't have a car, you don't know London. I really need someone who really knows London. And I'd just gotten off the boat, you know, so it wasn't, I was so new to it. And then at the same time I was taking my folio around and, and I went to see some quite big name photographers. Michael Woolley was one of them. And he Saw I had like this little portfolio, which was the trend in Melbourne at the time, to photograph Your print on 5 4transparency and then put it in a little box, little frame so you would hold it up to the light or put on a light box. And so you weren't taking a print with you taking a little box of 54 transparencies. And I had this little box and it was an underwater kinetics case. It was a camera brand case at the time, which was quite popular. They made all different colors, but I got the black one and this guy Michael said, darling. He said, darling, photos are lovely, but the box looks like something the IRA will put a bomb in. He said, go to this place so. And buy this portfolio. So this box. So I went there and I, you know, spent £100 and bought this box. And it was just a whole like, okay, I'll do that. If you say do that, do. I'll do that. You know, just going with the flow and gradually you kind of meet people and form friendships and get asked back and. Yeah, but, you know, in that first. [00:37:39] Speaker B: Couple of years in London, obviously, you know, there's so much going on. Not only are you. Have you moved from, you know, familiar homeland to a whole new place, but what, what do you think were the greatest learnings for you personally and professionally during that period, that first couple of years? Oh. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Photographically or as a person? As a person. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Bit of both. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Look, I was living at home before and I hadn't lived out of home, so that was all very new. So I guess kind of balancing trying to work. Living at home is a big thing to start with, and with different personalities and different types of people and working out how they do things and observing and I. I've definitely was an observer. Like, I just sat back, but I think I've been that most of my life anyway, because I'm like the third child. So you just kind of fit in. Yeah, so I think that kind of was okay. Suffered terribly from anxiety. I remember once just having to stop in the street and hold on to a. Like a lab post because I thought I was going to pass out because it felt like it was so much to take in. It was. Everything was so new. I was so far from home. I spent so much money calling home. They never seem to call me, but I spent so much money calling home because I needed that connection. I think, though, it allowed me to. To really hone in on what I like. You know, things like what do I like, what am I interested in? And really kind of Fine tune it maybe to an unhealthy point, I don't know, but I remember being, becoming very tunnel visioned of this is me, this is what I'm doing today. This is the mission I'm on. Don't come near me. You know, this is where I'm going. This is what I like. This is, I don't know, the colander I'm gonna buy for my kitchen because that's the one I really like, you know. Everything became very micro kind of, I don't know, it just became very solid, which I, I think is a good thing too. And I notice it a lot in artists that I'm working with, with. I, I would like to get back there actually, because I feel like now I'm a bit everywhere. There's something in. I was very kind of narrow and I think the photographic industry at the time allowed me to be that too because I was going after a certain type of fashion, I was creating a certain type of image. I was working with certain printers and certain makeup artists and certain stylists and I was really fine tuning it. And I think that's why, you know, I ended up with, I feel pictures that are quite classic, you know, that, that everything was so kind of choreographed, I guess. I don't know, you know, everything in life became choreographed. What I wore, what I, you know, everything. We had a Kim, who I used to live with. We both had a tailor we'd go to who, who used to make trousers for the Rolling Stones. You know, you kind of just, you kind of really made everything simple but sharp. I don't know. It's hard to explain. [00:41:21] Speaker C: Was it, do you think it was being, being in that, you know, that fashion world, like one of the, the centers of the worldwide fashion industry and being around those people. Was it that kind of was. Did you feel some sort of pressure? Whether it was made up, like an external pressure, an internal pressure to find your own style and to be sort of a unique person that fits into that world. [00:41:53] Speaker A: I think that I was just trying to just, I guess doing that anyway. But there were a couple of times when it came up that. It's a bit of a hard. I just have to think about it. I, I think, I think I was loving doing that, you know, like I was just, I was, it made it all felt simple because there was a structure, you know, I, I, and I guess this is where it's little bit. I think you might have to tell me the question again. [00:42:31] Speaker C: No, it's all right. I was just sort of Wondering whether it's. [00:42:34] Speaker A: My brain went somewhere else. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Whether it was, whether it was sort. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Of to me, twice a show. Don't worry. [00:42:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Whether you feel like. Whether there was a pressure to become, I don't know, like a. A version of yourself that you wanted to see. Like a. You sort of throw off the old you and you're like, no, no, this is me. [00:42:58] Speaker A: And, and yeah, I don't think it was. I don't think it was a pressure. I think it was actually welcomed. Like I was really loving the trajectory. You know, I was enjoying it. I. I felt like I kind of knew who I was. And I don't think through my younger years I really knew who I was or what I was about or what I liked or what I was interesting or. Or did anybody care? And then all of a sudden people kind of in my small world started to care about what I liked and what I, what I thought was good and what I, you know, because they were inviting me back to work more and they were. Or they were giving me jobs or they're wanting to work with me and, and I saw. So I sort of found my people. [00:43:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:46] Speaker A: And I found what I liked. And I think through my childhood I probably just did. I was just there. I mean, we were told you're just there. You know, you're just there. I mean I had a lovely upbringing, of course, and, and I was very lucky, but we were just kind of there. We didn't have. We. I wasn't a family where you had an opinion on things or, or what you. It's not like you didn't matter. You did matter, but it wasn't like you're you. Your express self. Expression wasn't. It wasn't. It just wasn't a thing. So if all of a sudden I'm self expressing and I was really enjoying it because I was feeling kind of like, oh yeah, I think this is. And I think that. And they're like, okay, yeah, I agree. Yeah, let's do that. And you're like, oh, okay. [00:44:40] Speaker C: You're just waiting for someone to be like, no, that's wrong. And you're like, exactly. But it never happened. Oh, that's amazing. So. [00:44:46] Speaker A: So I, so I did enjoy that. It's like I do remember walking into. There was a magazine in Conde Nast Brides magazine. It still goes, it's still around. And the fashion editor was from New York, A.J. knight. She'd come over and she invited me to come and sit, see the collection that I was going to photograph for A shoot we were doing at the Waldorf Hotel and other places. And it was a big shoot, maybe eight models, something like that, all in one shot a lot of the time. And she said, come and have a look at the dresses so we can work out which dresses we're going to put where. I'm like, oh, God, what. What do I know? You know? What? What? That's what I'm thinking in my head. What do I know? So I walk in to the. It's like in the movies, you know, there's this big room and there's all these gowns, and she starts pulling them out and. And I don't even think I took Polaroids. I may have at the time, just as a record, or they may have taken pictures on film and then got it processed just with a little snappy camera. But I had to make some choices, and I had to say, oh, that one. And I really had to trust my instinct and say, I think that one and that one and that one are really good for this area of the Waldorf. And then this one and this one. This one we'll do in the studio the next day. And I really had to trust my judgment on what was right because I had this person who's, you know, pretty versed in her job. Amazing. And I'm in Conde Nast, where Vogue is and Tatler and all these magazines, and I've got holes in my shoes, and I. It was raining outside. But I had to make some decisions, and I had to trust my instinct. And I think that's. Actually. If I go back to your original quote, that's something I did learn. Trust my instinct on things. Don't doubt myself, because that's what, you know, it's only my instinct. Like, it's no one else's. That's the thing I've got to own, is my instinct. And I still, you know, think about that today. And I still think about that that day in the. In the closet with those dresses. And then, of course, when you get on the shoot, they. They. And you're on a location, they always say, which shot do you want to do first? You're like, God, I don't know. I'm just so sweaty from unpacking all the gear, I can't even think about it. Okay, it makes sense to do A. But I actually feel like doing D, so. And then you just. You like this in your head, and then you go, let's do D. Let's do that one. Yeah, because that's the one. I feel like Doing that's the one I should do first. Even if it doesn't make sense for hair and makeup, which often you've got to consider that, because if they've got to make changes, that time is money. But, but you've got to. I just. I had to trust my instinct, trust myself. That's because they're big decisions. It's a lot of money riding on it and you've got a team of people. It's not like being a landscape photographer and walking out there and going, I can come back the next night or whatever, you know, the next day and, and get it in my own time. I mean, of course you got weather to think about and all of that, but you've got a load of people there and a lot of money from investors and whatever else, you know, advertisers and, and, and, and you are only as job. That's the other thing that's always on your back. You know, you're only as good as what you're doing right now. Even the last shot. Okay. Oh, God, that shot wasn't very good. And, and I used to find that if, if they went, oh, yeah, they look. Saw the polar over. Oh, yeah. I go, okay. Oh, yeah, it's not great. Let's just change this, this, you know, and, and because I kind of felt a bit. Oh, yeah, okay. As well. I had to push it more. Push, push, push. Until I thought I felt the spark. That spark you're talking about of. Oh, okay. I'm excited now to press the button. [00:48:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:49] Speaker A: Because film costs money. [00:48:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:52] Speaker A: You know. [00:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:53] Speaker A: So you have. [00:48:55] Speaker B: And time. [00:48:56] Speaker C: Yeah. And I was curious to ask about that. So trusting your instincts when it comes to shooting, are you? [00:49:05] Speaker B: I'm. [00:49:05] Speaker C: I'm the sort of photographer, I second guess myself all the time. Even like, I did a. I did probably. I do a lot of sports and stuff. I did a mountain bike shoot with the same guy that I shoot with a lot. It's probably the hundredth shoot we've done. We work together all the time. Even after that shoot, I know we got some shots, but I'm still like, ah. I don't feel, you know, like, hopefully they're good. I feel like that all the time. Did you, like, you said that when you were excited, you were like, there was a spark and you're like, yeah, this is it. This is what? This is great. Did you ever feel when you were creating a great shot, did you ever feel like maybe you weren't sure if it was going to work or did you always if it had that spark, you were like, I know we're on here. [00:49:54] Speaker A: Yeah, Look, I. When we were shooting film, I know that some of the shots would be. But I knew the one that's like, yeah, that's it. There's so many elements that need to come together, you know, and you know, when you're looking through the lens, I, Yeah, I suppose there have, there have been shoots where I thought, oh, I don't know if it was that great, but, oh, maybe we'll be doing something in the printing where I'm going to change it or whatever. But I think usually I have it on set. If I don't have it on set, I feel like I haven't achieved anything and what's the point of being there, you know? Like, I really do feel that, like it's, There's a lot on it. On a. On it, one of my shoots, there's a lot happening on the day and I really want to enjoy it and I really want to come away feeling like that was fantastic. And I want the assistance to come away being, feeling, wow. I really. Wow, that was great. I really enjoyed that. And this is why I love the big productions because you get, you get that feeling, you get that adrenaline rush. You know, so much has to come together and then you're like, okay, this is why I do this. Because often there's been months of pre production before walking in there and then you've got that small window of 10 hours or a couple of days or three days or whatever the shoot is to create this thing. And sometimes there are pressures of people's clients expectations that you will be doing more on the day or. And that's often, that's a hard one to wrangle, I guess. I'm on tripod. This is the angle, this is the lens, this is what I'm doing. And then all the lights come in. Kind of photographer. I don't move around. I don't change cameras. I don't, I just, I'm. It's usually, you know, one, one thing. And that's not laziness or anything. It's just, it's like buying that colander. I know what I want from this. [00:52:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:06] Speaker A: You know, I don't, I don't need to bring in, I don't need 20 different angles. But these days, of course, they need a lot of content and things, but. And that's, that's where I, that's where I trip up now. But I think that, you know, I'm after that, that image that says Everything in one, two fiftieth of a second. You know, I'm after that image that has the light, has the. Has the hair and makeup, has the model's position, has the garments looking great, you know, has the magic. And I know when I've got that. And I suppose we don't stop until we have, you know, because I can't walk away feeling. Until the next job feeling flat. You know, I have to walk away feeling like I've created something that's worth creating. [00:53:00] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. It's a long checklist to tick off to. To fit within that one, two fiftieth of a second. And it's a really interesting perspective, to put it that way, that there are so many elements that come together for this kind of shoot, but at the end of the day, it comes down to you mastering a fraction of a second. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:19] Speaker B: And it all has to make sense. Like you said, it all has to tell the story in that 1/50 of a second. [00:53:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:25] Speaker B: And that's a. That's. That's no easy task. [00:53:28] Speaker A: No. And I feel I've been working a lot with dancers in the last few years and collaborating with choreographer Carol Brown, the head of dance at the College of the Arts. And I feel that 2/50 of a second sometimes works against me because it's not just about the movement of dance and capturing a frozen moment. In fact, it's actually, you want the moment that keeps going, not just the moment that's frozen. That's a bit of a boring picture. And so I feel like sometimes what I create is limiting. Me getting the energy of the. What we're creating as a. As a team, me trying to get that perfect, you know, thing that I've been trained to do is limiting my expression, I guess, or what I see in front of me. Because these dancers. Dances are incredible. You know, the choreography is amazing. And the whole thing is. There's so much to it. There's so much to get in that 2/50 of a second. So much of what you're feeling as you watch it, there's just so much and. And it's a. It's a hard task. Like, it's a really. I find it's been. It's been a really hard thing to. To get. I guess most people have that thing that they find is hard. Hard to get through their lifetime, you know, that you just. That's why you keep going. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:55:03] Speaker C: Well, and I think if you've. If you've spent so much of your life working towards that goal. Who better than you to try and achieve that with a subject that's difficult to make that fit into one frame? Yeah, that's a great pursuit. [00:55:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:24] Speaker C: Certainly would be easier just to point a video camera at them and film them doing their thing and get it all, you know. [00:55:30] Speaker A: That's right. [00:55:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:55:34] Speaker C: But that's not, not such a challenge. I have a weird little question just about going back to. You were talking about shooting and what it's like on a shoot day and how much fun it is when there's a big crew around a big production. Have you got any weird habits or rituals or procedures and processes? Anything from like what you have for breakfast on a shoot day to how you do you have a, like a team meeting at the start of the day or do you never do that or. I'd just love to hear more about like how, how's your a shoot day evolved for you? And is there anything that now is like, this has to happen for me. [00:56:13] Speaker A: To have a good day, I have to have my hair up. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Me too. Yeah. [00:56:27] Speaker A: I have to have my hair up. I, but I, I will firstly start, I just want to tell you about when I worked with Clive Arrowsmith. We meditated before the shoot and oh. [00:56:40] Speaker C: Wow. [00:56:43] Speaker A: That was pretty great because he, he was in with the Ravi Shankar and people like that. And, and, and so there was the meditation before the shoot and the cleansing and all of that. But anyway, for me, what I, I do, yeah, I need to have my hair up. I need to wear clothes that are kind of very simple, I guess, nothing fussy. Runners I need to have, Yeah, I guess I've had breakfast or whatever. I don't really like eating on shoots that much because I get too tired after it. So. And, and I do have always had assistants go, you haven't eaten anything. But I kind of run on the adrenaline and probably the coffee, you know, more. So I, we with Carrot working with Carol, we have done before the actual shoot and after the dancers have done their warm ups, we have all done a warm up. So everybody stops and we get in, get into a circle and so hair and makeup stops, everybody and we get into a circle and we all do a, a physical warm up together and a little bit of, I guess gratitude and it kind of sounds a bit flowery, but it's actually fantastic because it helps the team because there's usually more than 10 people, there's 10 plus on the shoot and it helps everybody just kind of ground themselves because often, you know, Hair and makeup are in a different space to us as the photographic team, and then the stylist is maybe in their area, and. And the set design is kind of moving around and. And there's quite a lot of people, but if we come together in a circle, and I often cry in that, so there's a little bit. Few tears that are shed because we've got to the point we're actually doing the shoot and. And there's so much that's happened before that costumes are made, you know, getting everybody together, you just coordinating it all, thinking about it. Is this right. Is this the right color palette? Are we, you know, is this, you know, what. What am I going to do after that? Have I spoken to Sandy in Sydney? Have I, you know, worked out what. How more film am I going to use? You know, how are we going to work it? There's so much that I'm usually like, okay, I need that little release of the circle. [00:59:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So recently there's something that happens in Japan for, I think, for most industries where every morning they play a particular music track and they all do stretching exercises. I can't remember the name of it, but sometimes when you're out early in. On the streets of Tokyo, you'll see, you know, people that are working on construction sites and things. They'll all be standing in a group and the boss will be at the front and the boss will be leading this exercise regime that they all have to do every morning. [00:59:39] Speaker A: How fantastic. [00:59:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's wonderful. You know, it kind of. And it. When you were talking about it, a couple of things that made me think of was that it brings everyone back to the same level as well. Yes, you're people, you've all got a task to do. But, you know, you're all the same. You're all just, you know, yes, everyone. There is a hierarchy, of course, but in that moment, moving through rhythm to. To start the day. And I think that's something very Grounding. Like you said, grounding was a good word. [01:00:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Justin, I want to flip your question back on you. Just out of interest, do you have any rituals or. Or habits that you do before any shoot? [01:00:18] Speaker C: I don't, but I'm. I'm gonna make some. I think after hearing that, I think I've got. I've got some room to. No, not really. Just. Just gear preparation, usually. And that again, it's not a ritual enough because sometimes I don't do it as fastidiously as I do other times. [01:00:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:34] Speaker C: But, yeah, it's it's usually just like, I like to get hands and eyes on every piece of gear that I know I'm going to need. I don't want to trust that it's in there. Just. Yeah, yeah, I pull it out, I look at it, put it back in, you know, on each piece of gear that I know I'm going to need for the day. That's, that's really probably it. And otherwise making sure I've got, you know, food and water and whatever. [01:00:56] Speaker A: I think, I think touching the equipment is, Is really important. Handling the camera, getting it out, having a look, checking it, cleaning it, loving, you know, giving it a bit of love before beforehand. [01:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's my process too, is to get everything out. I lay it all out on a table or the bench and I rethink my decision because I would have packed the bag, say the day before I'm doing something with the camera and that morning I'll. I'll recheck everything and just make sure that my thinking and my decision making for the choice of lens and all of the extra bits and pieces that go along with the camera and in the bag, I just, I kind of reaffirm those choices. [01:01:39] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [01:01:40] Speaker B: Just to build that confidence that, yeah, no, you've made the right choices. You're. You're good to go. You've got everything you need, you know, Y. [01:01:45] Speaker C: And. [01:01:46] Speaker A: But sometimes you might think, oh, actually, maybe this might be good, you know, because you think actually maybe that might be good. And then you might. Or something comes into your head and you think, I can't ignore, even though I don't have that maybe I need to go and hire it, you know? Yeah, yeah, I didn't think about that. But maybe I need it. And then I often go and get it and I will use it and it is the thing I use because again, I've trusted my instinct on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:02:16] Speaker C: I think, I think for me it's like the, it comes from a bit of a fear I've had. The, the. The worst times I've had on shoots of when I've been panicking because something's gone wrong. And, and it's usually because of an equipment thing that probably my fault for not checking it. You know, you go to pop a battery and that. That battery is actually flat. And yes, I can troubleshoot it. I've got a spare body, a different thing. I'll figure it out. But then it puts you in. It puts me in like a bit. I used to shoot weddings a lot, so it was always, like, fast, and then it puts you in a state where you're not. You're not in that flow state where everything's working well. You're starting to troubleshoot silly problems that I should have picked up prior to the shoot. [01:03:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:03] Speaker C: And so it's kind of trying to avoid that. That getting sucked into that mindset where everything's going wrong and trying to get. Make sure that you're. When you're on the shoot that it feels like everything's going right. [01:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:03:14] Speaker B: That's a better place to be. [01:03:16] Speaker A: There's a lot more. Oh, sorry. Go. [01:03:18] Speaker B: No, no, please, Roman, go ahead. [01:03:20] Speaker A: There's a lot more of that since digital, I feel. [01:03:24] Speaker B: Wow. [01:03:24] Speaker C: Is there. I thought film would be more terrifying to. To have such a high, like a huge production, 20 people or something like that, big budget, and it's all, like, resting around this. This film process. That would scare me. Do you think it's the other way? [01:03:41] Speaker A: Well, I definitely got into a rhythm with that. So we had, you know, we had a way that we did it. And so my assistants, we all knew how we were doing it, how the rolls were numbered, where the rolls went, how they were packaged up after they've been shot, where the Polaroid went, how the diagram went in the Polaroid book. You know, all these sorts that we had a system in place, but the equipment very rarely failed. The equipment just went and went and went and went. Nothing went wrong with it. The only time I did something stupid is this camera here. This Rolleiflex behind me has a ground glass that comes out and you can clean it. And I put it in the back in the wrong way, and. And I. I heard that David Bailey had done it too, so I wasn't that worried. But anyway. Anyway, I, I, of course, everything was out of focus. I'm like, why is it, you know, is it. You know, it's in my eyes, is my. Anyway, I worked it out, but it was just tiny things like that. It was never batteries. I mean, of course I had to charge batteries for that, but there was just less. And it was never electronic stuff. It was none of this. You need power for all that stuff. You didn't need. There's just so much stuff now. Basically, before, you just had your camera, your lenses, your light meter and your tripod and then your lights. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Yep. [01:05:12] Speaker A: You know, and I just feel. [01:05:14] Speaker C: Laptop. [01:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:17] Speaker B: Just before we move along, I just want to take a very brief moment just to remind everybody that you are listening or watching to the camera live podcast and I can see in the chat that there's a couple of people that have snuck off to the loo or perhaps a quiet corner at work to, to have a watch and make some comments. But on that question of rituals, before you go out on a shoot, if there's something that you do that's particular to you, share it in the comments and let us know whether you're watching live now or you're watching us back later. And while we're on that topic, give us a like for this video. It certainly helps us out a lot. It lets other people know that we have content that's worth viewing. And if you're new here, consider subscribing. If you hit the subscribe button and tickle the bell icon to always, you'll get notified in your time zone of every time we go live, which is every Thursday morning, 9am Australian Eastern Daylight Time at the moment or standard Time later in the year, we, we interview an amazing photographer just like Bronwyn Kid. And then every Monday night we have our random photography show, 7.30pm every Monday, Australian Eastern Daylight or Standard Time, where we, we just basically talk about the industry. We look at your photos. You can send in photos to be reviewed by us and we'll show them on the show, talk about industry news, the odd unpacking of some new gear. Most importantly, make sure you give us a like and a subscribe. It certainly does help us. I wanted to ask you a question, broman, about Polaroids. You've mentioned Polaroids a couple of times, you know, as a, as a quick test shot to make sure that you know what, what you envision is going to appear. Do you. What do you. What happens to all those Polaroids? You know, does it. Have you got a huge shoebox somewhere just full of them from the years? Is it something that you can revisit and perhaps make a product from like a book or even an exhibition? [01:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I do have a lot. I keep everything. We often cut them up on the day if we needed to make layouts or, you know, something like that and stuck them on a wall or stuck them in a book. As I said, I've got lighting diagram books because often I was asked to, to repeat lighting for products. So if I was working for say, Marks and Spencers and we had a, a set, you know, we draw the set and we draw where everything is. So when we came back three months later, we did it exactly the same. So Polaroids went into that. So I've got books that have all of that information. I'VE got, yeah, shoebox pretty much of Polaroids as well. A lot of Polaroids of assistants standing in and, you know, on set and all of that. Often they went in the back of the camera case as mementos of, of locate being on locations and different things. So they're sitting in the back of the camera case as well as like a montage. I have heard of people selling their Polaroids. I haven't done it myself, but, yeah, it's something definitely could do or create a book out of, I suppose. One for me, the final image was usually on the film. So even the neck isn't the thing, it's the actual print. So it's the print we went into the darkroom to make that is the final thing. And that's for me, where the memento is, I guess, or the, you know, the final work. So even when I look at the Polaroid, I think, yeah, that was kind of where we want to get, but it wasn't where we got, you know, with it. So the, the print from the neg from the shot ends up being the thing that I usually most like with. You know, I dabbled with 10, 8 and 5, 4 for various fashion shoots. Some of those Polaroids are really beautiful to look at. Everyone loves the photographer, Paolo Reversi, and he shoots a lot on Polaroid. And so, you know, often when Apollo would come out quite green, everyone, oh, it's like Paolo Reversi and, you know, and, and that's what, you know, makeup artists particularly, really love that style. But shot to finish on Polaroid, like, that was his, that's his thing. It was such a great thing. So toxic, but such a great, great thing. And you always had to take a, you had to take a rubbish bag with you back then, which we don't really take now on shoots. So always had a rubbish bag in the camera bag for the Polaroids. Always had a Polaroid box to put the Polaroids into that, you know, you'd taken it out of the 669 box or whatever. Paul. Yeah, I, I, I love them, but I guess I never saw them as the final result because I knew there was so much more to do to it for me. [01:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah, very fair. [01:10:14] Speaker C: I wouldn't mind. [01:10:16] Speaker B: Oh, go. [01:10:17] Speaker C: I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind dialing back a little bit. I've actually, I've got a note written down here and I want to ask about it because we, we're still yet to get to cameras. We'll get to that at some point. I wouldn't mind having a look at some of your images at some stage as well, and maybe getting you to talk us through how they came to life. But back when you were in London, you were assisting and you got your foot in the door assisting, and you were leaning into, like, trusting your instincts. How was it going? Like, trying to make the transition from assisting to shooting and running your own shoots and being the lead photographer, Was that a challenge? Was there pushback from the people that you had worked with to try and stop that from happening, or was it embraced? I'd really love to know what that was like. [01:11:03] Speaker A: I think if I had have done it here, where I'd assisted for four years or so, it would have maybe been a bit harder. But there I didn't. I'd only. I just. I went. I got there in 92 and I started shooting in 92, so. So I, I assisted so I could find out the lay of the land, I guess, and also just, you know, meet people. I assisted Polly, who I photographed for the Cantor Prize, and, and that was f. Amazing. I. No, everybody was very encouraging. So they, they wanted you to go out and do. Do your own thing. There was enough for everybody, really. And because it goes back to what I was saying before about, you know, in London, you really had to have a style. My style was my style and no one else was doing that look, so. And, and the next person's was their style. And so you knew you got the job you were meant to get. And if it was because it was right for what you did, the assisting. Look, you know what, I actually stopped assisting and I started working in a cafe and that was what I had to do to kind of remove myself from assisting. Even though I hadn't assisted in London that long, I felt mentally, for me, I needed to withdraw from it and do something else to become a photographer. So I ran a cafe in Camden Market and, And, you know, and met actually, you know, great friends that I have now still from that time and, you know, people from different walks of life, not just the photographic world. So that was some. That's what I had to do. Thinking back, I had to remove myself from the industry. Personally, I don't think anybody I worked for would have. They would. They were all encouraging because they were doing their own thing, being booked for what they do, you know, so that was kind of the understanding there. But, yeah, I did have to go off and do something else and, and waitressing was what, you know, working in a cafe was what I did. And then just, you know, spending My. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Days. [01:13:26] Speaker A: Concentrating on getting work and finding out who was who and what was what. Assisting takes up a whole, you know, the whole day most the time, and you're pretty exhausted at the end of it. And you're very much in that person's world when you're assisting. And I kind of needed to be in my own world to be able to think about where I wanted to go. So waitressing was. Was a better option for me with that. [01:13:56] Speaker C: I think that's amazing, an amazing story and amazing, potentially amazing advice for people as well, where it's like, there's a point where you. You maybe need to make the jump. And even if that means subsidizing with something that's not in the industry, but it means you can be the thing that you want to be rather than potentially getting stuck for longer in the world of assisting. [01:14:19] Speaker A: There were definitely professional assistants in London, and I guess I looked at that and I thought, I don't want to be that, so I better do something else. And. And they were great to work with. You know, I remember working with one professional assistant and he, you know, he was probably. He seemed old to me at the time, but he was probably like 35 or something. But. But that was. He was happy with that. He didn't want to. And he worked with Peter Ashworth, who's a pretty amazing photographer. Did the Eurythmics album cover with Annie Lennox, like that, you know, so worked with him and his assistant. Yeah, was really, you know, kind of like a roadie, actually, that kind of person. And. And great to. Great to work with. Just was so there for Peter and just. Yeah, great to witness that. But I didn't want to be that. Not that I wasn't there for the photographer. I was very much. But I kind of knew I wanted to be a photographer. [01:15:23] Speaker B: Yep, Yep. [01:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:25] Speaker B: And do you. Would you say that for anyone wanting to get into a particular genre that, you know, looking for an assistant role is still a great way to learn the ropes? [01:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I don't. Look, I don't think you can be. So I think it's the only way to me to learn. I don't know if you can come out of college and start. I mean, maybe some people can. Maybe people in the art world can. Maybe people in E commerce can. I don't know. But I think, yeah, definitely people in the art world can. Can. But I think if you want to be an advertising photographer, if you want to do weddings or whatever, I think you need. You need to learn not just how to Take the photo. But how to conduct yourself professionally, how and. Or how not to from whoever you work for and how to work a business as well. And look, I've never been great. I wasn't a great business person. All my money went on new. Not cameras, but. Well, camera was expensive, the one that I bought, but prints for my folios, I had 10 folios at one stage. All hand printed, all hand retouched, you know, and then after that it was spending on retouching and you know, when we went into Photoshop and digital and then equipment was a lot more expensive. But I think, you know, you've got to be able to charge properly for what you do. And you learn that through working with people. I mean, maybe even working with a, an agent or a producer is a good thing to do as well. Now that I. Look, if you can get some kind of assisting role there, if advertising is what you're interested in or the commercial side of photography, because they, they know how to work the money probably better than most photographers too. So, yeah, I think assisting is really important and you build lifelong friendships. You know, Jackie Henshaw and I have been friends well, well since I was in high school because our mothers did. Did a china painting together. I always forget if it's china painting or cake decorating. It's one of those. Jackie will correct me. And, and you know, Jackie's still my great friend and if I really need to ask her advice, I'll give her a call. And, and I think that that bond is always there when you're assisting someone. You have usually form this great friendship and you have so many laughs and you have so many memories. It's not like you're going to the office for a day. You know, you're actually there creating things. You're making things. You're experiencing you, you. I don't know this. Jackie and I, we laughed so much and we still laugh about those same things. And it's really important. They're not just, it's not just a work thing. It's a, it's a lifetime bond. And as with Andrew, as with all the stylists Virginia that I work with, Sarah, who's not alive anymore, there's all these people, makeup artist Karen in, in. She's now, she's in Edinburgh. You know, they're, they're great friendships and I think assisting kind of helps you to see your place and be humble and learn and yeah, just get the vibe of what's going on. Yeah, it's an important thing to do. Yeah, for a good length of time. [01:19:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't what it's once and then you're like, all right, now I, now I know I went on one shoot with, with a professional, I'm ready to go. [01:19:30] Speaker A: Well, and that's what, that's what. Sorry, I've just got to ask my stepson to put the dog out. [01:19:37] Speaker B: More than. Okay, we are very dog friendly here. So you take me to ask you. [01:19:45] Speaker A: Can you let him out? He's pounding at the door. Yeah, I. Look, it took me a long time to call myself a photographer. It took me probably a decade to call myself a photographer. Someone said to me, what do you do? You know, what's your work or whatever. I just say, oh, you know, I take photographs or whatever. But I didn't say I'm a photographer. You know, it's something you earned. And I didn't feel I'd earned it until quite a way down the line. So I find it interesting that other people don't think that way, you know, these days they're like, yeah, I'm a photographer, I got a website, I got. [01:20:32] Speaker C: This, I got that. And you want, you want to hear a funny, funny story? So when I first decided I was going to start trying to build a photography business, not just. I was just enjoying learning about cameras and stuff like that and shooting, but I made the decision, I was like, all right, I'm going to try and make this into something. And I got some business cards made and it said justin Castles, photographer on it and it had my phone number on there and my sister goes, so I guess all you need is a business card and you're a photographer. Hey. But it's like, well, what else? I mean, it's different in, you know, I was taking photos of families and pets and stuff like that's kind of different. You have to tell them you're a photographer, otherwise they won't know what you do. Whereas when you're in the world of Higher End productions and assisting and stuff like that, it's kind of different. Like you sort of need to earn that because you know what a photographer is in that world. [01:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:32] Speaker C: And it's not something that you can just call yourself if you haven't done it, if you haven't. If you haven't been at that level yet. So it's sort of a different. Yeah, different thing. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I think I say all this, I suppose I've softened a bit more because everyone's a photographer now, aren't they? But I do feel. I did feel that for a long time. I thought, you know what took me a long time to say that, to have the confidence to say I am a photographer. And now I don't know what I am actually, to be honest, I don't know if I'm an artist, I'm a photographer. But James wrote recently for me that I'm a collaborative expressionist. And I thought, oh, I like that. Oh, I'll take that on. [01:22:29] Speaker B: Expressionist, yes. [01:22:31] Speaker C: Can go lots of different avenues with that, too. [01:22:33] Speaker B: That's. [01:22:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's very freeing. [01:22:35] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, I feel that's what's happening now. You know, like, I am doing lots of. Of different things. So it's. The photography is. Is. I mean, it's still very important, and it is the thing that I do, but there's so much that's. That surrounds it, that it's. And there's projects I'm involved in that I'm like, oh, where does the photography come into this now? That's kind of where things are at the moment. It's interesting. [01:23:03] Speaker B: Well, I think it's good because rather than being limited by a job title and what everyone expects falls under that job title umbrella, you've broadened your scope, and I think you've. Obviously, you've reached a place in your life and career where you can quite confidently say, I'm more than a photographer now. Yeah, I think that's the next evolution. You know, you took a decade to reach that point where you could call yourself a photographer, and now you're more than a photographer, I think would be fair to say. [01:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Although I do listen. You know, you see things on Instagram and, and. And what, YouTube and whatnot. And I, you know, you listen to an interview with Richard Avedon, or I saw one Yesterday with Don McCullen, and he just said, you know, I am a photographer. That's it. You know, And I thought, okay, how did I pass that now? What's happening? Yeah, well, I know what I am now, but, yeah, they're very. They're very strict on what they are not. I'm not an artist. I'm not photography. I mean, they even say photography is an art. Some of them. [01:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:12] Speaker A: That's a whole nother topic. [01:24:14] Speaker C: Mine isn't. No, no, don't be silly. Well, I wrote. I wrote this note down earlier as well, but there definitely seems to be, for me, like you talked about you, you in the very early days, the ability to control and create the scene. I guess the photograph from, you know, all the Elements, subject, lighting. What. What's going to get included? That was sort of. You just thrived in that situation. Whereas I've always been the opposite. I'm more like, give me something to document. If someone says, all right, you've got a blank slate, what do you want to do? I'm like, I have no idea. I don't. Nothing. I'm a blank slate. My mind goes blank and that's it. Whereas if. If there's something that I can work around in a scene to immerse myself in, that's different. [01:25:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:06] Speaker C: And I've always wondered whether that's a. Just a different type of creative brain that some people have, that. That just inherent thing where they can give them a white room and so you can put whatever you want in here and create a photo. Their brain just lights up with like, oh, yeah, this is going to be. This is going to be the best day ever. Whereas I would be like, I have no idea what I'm going to do. [01:25:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I. I'm the opposite. I find it easier to have that white room. [01:25:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:36] Speaker A: I find it more difficult to have the other. I find it easier. Maybe it's a control thing. I don't know. But to start from scratch with something and have a white cove in the studio and say, okay, now let's bring in everything, you know, let's. Let's make. Make that. Whereas, you know, to go to my husband, he photographs events and things. I. I can't do it. I'm not good at that. I don't. I. It's just not my. I find it. Oh, which, you know, what should I photograph here? What. You know, what do they want? What do they want from this? Or. Yeah, but I find it the same going into a clothes store, you know, if I go into a clothing store that has, you know, everything everywhere, like, say, I don't know, Zara or whatever, I. I can't think. But if I go into a clothes store that has, like, five things, you know, I find it much easier to. To get my head around it or to be inspired by it. Yeah. It's just different types, isn't it? [01:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I think so. It's, you know, it's a. It's a spectrum. You know, we love spectrums these days. It's a spectrum, I think. Yes. Yeah. But I think there is in. In photography, I think, you know, people sit at different ends of that scale and contribute to the craft in different ways, and one is not better than. It's just how our brains Work and I think that's that diversity is the beauty of what we do, that we do see things differently. Justin can take photos of, of people and engage with them in a way that I, I don't have that skill, you know, but he's just different, a different photographer than me. He's a very technical photographer, but he's got a great personality. I'm a more of a reclusive photographer. [01:27:25] Speaker C: And I'm more expressive and you've got a great personality. Shut up. Stop it. [01:27:31] Speaker A: Stop it. [01:27:34] Speaker B: I'd really like to talk about your experience with the Martin Cantor Portrait Prize. But I think first what we might do is actually, Justin, do you mind bringing up the image from Bronwyn's? It's the front image as soon as you go on the website. And if anyone wants to play along at home, you can head to bronwynkid.com sweet and simple. [01:27:58] Speaker C: One moment. I'm getting there. [01:28:00] Speaker B: Anytime you're ready, boss. [01:28:02] Speaker C: Yeah, professional, professional outfit that we're running here. Hang on, let me just resize this. [01:28:13] Speaker B: Okay, so this is your award winning image that you've created. Talk to us about, we'll get to the, to the, the accolade and the celebration in just a moment. But talk to us about what was the, what was that seed for this image to be made? [01:28:31] Speaker A: Well, it's. I've started doing a series of women artists and it's an ongoing project. I have known Polly since I went to London in 92. I got her details from a photographer I was assisting before I went to London. But I knew of Polly back in the early 80s when I started taking photographs because she did the promotional pictures for the band that I chased around Melbourne. So I knew her name. Then this photographer gave me her, her address to write to her because that's what we did back then. And so I wrote to her and we met up for. We met up in a cafe and we just hit it off straight away. We were just having fun and. And I think I might have told this story before but we, we're in this cafe in Chelsea and. And she said, you know, don't look now, don't look now is Bob Geldoff over there. And, and we just were like, we just. I didn't know. We were just in this bub. This lovely bubble and. And you know, Polly asked me to. I assisted Polly on quite a few different shoots and that was fantastic. And we've just stayed in contact ever since. So I probably assisted her last in about 96 I worked on The Michael Hutchins shoot with her, one of his, I think it was his last shoot and, and she called me up and said, would you like to come on this? And I was working as a photographer at that time, but I was like, yeah, of course, I'd love to come and work on it. So, you know, we just. I don't. There's just a shared love of photography there and, and that's a fantastic thing, you know, and an appreciation of photography and what it takes to be a photographer. And Polly's moved into the art world. She's now making. Well, she's always been an artist, but she's making sculptures as well. Now she lives in la and she comes to Melbourne once or twice a year. And we tried to do a. I asked her if I could do a portrait. I had photographed her back in 95, I think it was for GQ magazine for like a contributor's page, of which I've got a contact sheet that I have as part of my collection, a large contact sheet from that shoot. But I hadn't photographed her since then and she was coming back to Melbourne and she said, yeah, let's do it. And we tried. This was the third time we tried to do it. There was Covid. There was lost luggage, there was all different things. It happened. And anyway, finally it came along and I was like, oh, what do I. How do I do this? Like looking. Every idea I came up with, Polly had kind of done something of that ilk. And whether it be lots of colored gels or, or a certain shallow focus or whatever it be, whatever I thought of. I looked back on her archive and I thought she did that with this person and that with that. I can't do that. And then I just thought, well, what do I do best? And I do, I think I do like a really classic lighting studio set best. And so I kind of got a reference of Yves Saint Laurent, a portrait, a self portrait of him that I think Avedon did, or it's not a self wear portrait of him that Avedon did as a campaign. And I thought this is the sort of thing I want to do, just really simple. And when Polly turned up to the studio, she had this. She was wearing the all black and she had two of these capes, a black one and this pink one. And it just seemed to work really well. She's just got her arm up on like that and the cape is following the line of her arm. And we just, we did a mixture of digital and film. I've got now for My Hasselblad. I didn't know they made them until the last few years. I found out they made a film back for my H2. Sorry. So, so I, I used that. So it's a 645 format. [01:33:06] Speaker B: Yep. [01:33:07] Speaker A: And, and anyway out of there's, there's actually quite a few shots. Polly's okay about 12 frames. But this one I thought I'd put into the portrait prize. No one had seen it. Nobody knew I'd done a portrait of Polly. And we rushed to get it ready. We scan the neg, then retouched the neg in with visual thing, my retouchers and then Outputted the NEG to 5 4. Outputted the digital file to 5.4 NEG and then printed it in the darkroom on metallic paper. Kodak metallic. And I left all the rebate. I love rebate on images. I left all the rebate. I like this one has the digital readout as well. That means that it's come from my Hasselblad. [01:34:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I was looking at that at the top and I was like, yeah, that's, that's very cool to leave that. [01:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And then I also left down the bottom where the greeny colored bit is near the Portra 160. That's the sticky tape from the scan. So I left that as well. So the materiality has become quite important and I felt like I wanted to show that because of our connection as photographers. I might not show it for somebody who's maybe a painter or, or a printmaker or whatever, but I felt that it was right. So you've kind of got the classic mixed with the materiality and yeah. So I, I, it's quite a lot of work gone into it but hopefully it doesn't, you know, I think it sort of look, doesn't look like you can't see the work. And that's I think what I love, that's what I like to do. I kind of like to put a lot in but I hope the image doesn't show it all. It's hard to explain, explain. It doesn't show the work, it doesn't show the all the behind the scenes. It just is. You just see it as the image. [01:35:24] Speaker B: And again it's just that 1 250% of a second. [01:35:27] Speaker A: That's right. [01:35:29] Speaker B: And I think what I love most about this image, obviously the lighting is phenomenal and captivating and it leads you around the frame. But I think for me is that the image has a timeless quality to it. It this could be in the 60s, you know, it could be in the 90s or it could be today. I think there's a. And that. That's almost part of the story. There's a timelessness for me in my interpretation of it. And so when you. When you submitted this image for. For the portrait prize, was the. Was the framing. What did you call it? Sorry, I missed the term rebate. The rebate. That's right. Was the. Was the rebate included in the print. [01:36:12] Speaker A: Exactly as you see it? So. [01:36:14] Speaker B: Right. [01:36:16] Speaker A: What I often do is. And this isn't it because this is a metallic. We print on metallic paper. But when I've done the print, I then photograph the print. So what you see on my website of more recent artworks is actually photographs of the print. Right? [01:36:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:35] Speaker A: It's not the digital file, but this one is the digital file. Because we printed on metallic. It wouldn't really show up. And I guess I don't in this. In the edition because there's eight in the edition of this. I don't really want to be tied to metallic paper because it's obsolete. So. So there's addition. Addition of eight plus two artist proofs of this image that exit. That will exist and. But they may be on different papers. So I just put it. That's a digital file that you look at now. But yeah, all of that was in it. And that's what Natasha Bullock and. And the, the, the. The. What you call the, you know, the people that were judged, the judges really liked about it was that it was sort of a return to photography in that way way. But it had the digital background as well. It's very layered, actually. It's very layered and I kind of like that. It's complicated. It's expensive, but it's complicated and it's complicated. It's tricky because it is. Is becoming a really expensive process to shoot on film. Process, make a contact sheet, scan the neg, retouch the neg output back to neg print. That's. [01:38:07] Speaker B: And then photograph the print. [01:38:09] Speaker A: And photographs print on like nine steps. [01:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. Just a couple of quick comments here about the image. To me, the image frame almost acts as an artist statement, but without the words. And Julie Powell, friend of the show, says, I love that artist statement without the words. And I agree. I think it's, you know, after I'd sort of. The first time I absorbed the image and then notice the framing and I was, you know, looking at your settings and, you know, I was learning a bit from it. As well, about what went into this moment in time. I thought that was really compelling. So you've submitted that for. For the Ballet Rat Biennale. You know what I mean? The festival. I'll get it one day. And what was, what was that moment when you. When you were notified that you had won the Martin Cantor Prize? What. What was that like for you? [01:39:06] Speaker A: Well, I wasn't notified. I wasn't notified. I. So a lot went into getting it done quickly for the prize, and it's a bit of a long story, but I. I took it to my framers, Arten Framers in Abbotsford, and they were also doing a couple of others. So they said, can you, if you're driving up to Ballarat, can you take these others as well? So I said, yes, of course. So I took a couple of others framed pictures with me. And it was the day of like, five o' clock that day. They were closing the door on taking the submissions. And, well, firstly, it was nice to know that I was in the prize, but then you have to get print to them. My print wasn't ready, so Sandy had to print it. I had to get it framed and I had to rush it there. On the day when I got there, I was met at the exchange, the mining Exchange, where the officers are, by some people that work for the B. And. And they said, are you taking pictures to the Cantor Prize? And I said, have you got something for Cantor Prize? And I said, yeah, I've got a few. And they said, oh, just put them in the van. We're going to wherever after this. They don't know where. They said, to the. Wherever they were going. And. And I was in such a fluster, I just said, yes. And I put all these pictures, including mine and these other photographers, in this van. And. And then I thought I didn't get any sign off paper or anything. Like, what have I done? Did I give. [01:40:41] Speaker B: It could have been a heist. [01:40:42] Speaker A: It could have been. And so I didn't think about that till I got out of Ballarat. I'm on the freeway. I had to stop the car, send an email. They'd all gone home because I sent an email and it's a Friday and they got back to me on the Monday, said, no, no, it's all fine, it's all fine. We. We've got them. But I was so worried. And anyway, so there was that. And then. Then the next week, there was no notification there. There was an email that came through that said, here's a pass for the day to the Biennale Any other pass you'll. You'll have to get, you know, buy for yourself like a month, the whole Biennale pass or whatever, and that's fine. And, and, and then I got an email the day before on the Saturday saying, we're just checking who's coming to the opening. And, and attached was a pass for the whole Biennale. And I thought, oh, that's weird that they've attached a pass. I replied, yes, I'm coming anyway. Then went with my friend Kim Tenelli, who I hope you'll interview as well on the day. We just. She said, don't be tied to it. Don't be. Don't be. Don't expect to win. And I said, you know what? I'm kind of. I just want to see it on the wall now. And. And so we got there and really, I was in that space of. I was so exhausted by it. I just want to see it on the wall. I just want. But when we walked in, it was right near the title Martin Cantor Prize. But I have. That. Have had that quite often where I'm near the title. So often when they're doing their speeches, they stand near the thing that says what the prize is. And I have had my photo right there a few times. So I thought, oh, that's, you know, it's not going to happen for me this time. And anyway, they didn't do the speeches there, they did them somewhere else. And when they said my name, I was like. I actually couldn't believe it. I was really. I was so surprised because I checked out by that point. I just wasn't. I was just there to see it on the wall. And Kim was filming the whole thing and my cousin was there. She lives in Ballarat. And anyway, it was just. It was fun. And then I got whisked off to the podcast, Harry Met Sally. [01:43:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:43:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And it was just a lovely day. It's such a great event, the whole Biennale. It's so wonderful that photography is celebrated for that couple of months. It's a long time. And so many great exhibitions on. And, and, yeah, we were in a cloud of. You know, it just felt amazing. It was just a great. It was good for me because I felt like, you know, you just get to points where you feel a bit despondent about what you're doing. And, yeah, I really was, like, in that place. And I saw Polly in December. She was here for an opening of one of her exhibition, and she was just so pleased for me and she messed. We messaged also on the day that, that we won and, and she was just so happy that I think also because she's, you know, she's quite a star in the art world and in the photography world. She's, she's a, she's a big name and, and I think she was really pleased that she could do that for me and through our connection, our life, our connection since the 90s and hopefully through the rest of our lives. And, and it was a really lovely. The whole thing was perfect. Really. [01:44:27] Speaker B: Well, it's a pinnacle of your relationship as well as creatives, isn't it? It's both come together to make this possible and that just doesn't happen overnight. That takes trust and friendship and being honest with each other and that's such a beautiful outcome that the winner of the portrait prize is actually a photographer. You know, I mean, in the image, you know, that the winning image is actually of a photographer. I think that's a beautiful. What's that? Art Impersonating life. Is that the story? [01:45:00] Speaker A: Yes. [01:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. [01:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's correct. And, and Polly is exceptional. You know, she is an exceptional artist, exceptional photographer, exceptional person and, and so giving. And I really am glad that this portrait is of her. Yeah. And that I've won it with a portrait. That we have won it with a portrait of her. And, and yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's a really. It's, it's a great. It's, it's a nice full circle for me. [01:45:35] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's wonderful. I'm very conscious of time and I think we need to talk about gear for a few minutes before we wrap up today's episode of the Camera Life podcast. Justin, do you want to fire away with some questions about gear choices? [01:45:51] Speaker C: Well, no, First I just want you to show us that camera behind you, if that's possible. Tell us all about it. [01:45:56] Speaker B: We love show and tell. [01:45:57] Speaker C: I've been, I've been eyeing it off the whole episode. [01:46:02] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:46:03] Speaker A: Battery goes there. This is the Rolleiflex 6008 and this is the camera that. Well, I shot that photo there on. Of Kefrey and the dancers. But this was my camera of choice in London. So when I got to London, I had. I'd worked with photographers on all different cameras, you know, as an assistant, mostly Mamiyas back then. Some photographers had Bronicas. No, people were mostly shooting medium format. People I worked with. When I got to London, there are a lot of photographers, including Polly, that were shooting on Pentax 67 of course Hasselblads were in London and in. In Melbourne. I didn't like, I didn't feel that at home with any of them really. Like I didn't feel like this is my camera and at the time, this is what I had through college. So this is a Canon F1 and this is what I bought in the 19. 1987. 86. And so this is what I used and this is what I did the portraits of Polly on. I don't know why, but I did in 94 or 5. Whenever I did them, don't know why I did. But the great thing about this, what I loved is that this, the prism comes off so you can use it like this. It was used a lot with the press photographers. They liked it that they could kind of be a bit more discreet I suppose it looks a bit more likerish in that way. So you could be on a tram or whatever and you just be. Oh yeah, take. Take the. [01:47:48] Speaker B: Still does the nice street photographer style. That's right up my alley. Shooting from the hip, looking down. [01:47:57] Speaker A: That's right. So that's the F1 one. So that's what I had. That's what I went to London with. [01:48:04] Speaker B: It's. [01:48:04] Speaker A: It's all metal. It's all metal. And. But before that, when I was at high school, I used this Pentax me. Super. That was my dad's. Look at the strap. [01:48:18] Speaker B: Oh, we have to do something from Indianapolis from. [01:48:22] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [01:48:24] Speaker A: So that's what I did my high school school photos on with the Pentax. [01:48:28] Speaker C: But so is that strap got. [01:48:29] Speaker B: Has it. [01:48:30] Speaker C: Has it got film roll holders? Is that what that. Oh, that's so cool. [01:48:35] Speaker B: That's awesome. Oh, we need to make one of those. [01:48:39] Speaker C: Yeah, we might have to. That's so cool. [01:48:44] Speaker A: It's good, isn't it? [01:48:45] Speaker C: Yeah, that's awesome. [01:48:46] Speaker A: Classic Bobby Lee. It's by Bobby Lee. [01:48:50] Speaker C: Bobby Lee. Wow, that's so awesome. [01:48:54] Speaker A: And so yeah, so when it came to me needing to get a camera because I. I had work coming in, I had worked with a photographer, Simon Brown, who did a lot of Laura Ashley. So I was working in London assisting this photographer and he had got this camera, the Rolleiflex 6008 and he. It was great. I found that when I was. Was rolling on, you know, to load it and everything, I found it really easy. So that's the back for it and then the film cartridge is in here. [01:49:31] Speaker B: Y. [01:49:31] Speaker A: And that goes in on there. And then you put it on the camera and then you would pull that down. Now you've you've pulled the dark slide down because the dark side slide is, is inside. It's like a concertina. So it actually. It's not like it has to where we have to pull it out or Mamiya. You pull it out, you've got to find somewhere to put it. Put in your pocket, you sit on it, whatever. It's actually all. [01:50:02] Speaker B: Just contained. Yeah. [01:50:05] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:50:06] Speaker B: That's amazing, isn't it? [01:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So this camera was actually made to take a digital back back in the early 90s. They hadn't created them yet, but they were going there and Rolleiflex teamed up with Leaf and createbacks. But then Phase came in with Hasselblad and they took over really the industry. Anyway, this is a fantastic camera. It's what I shot everything on and there's so many great features of it. So this is the grip. I can actually turn the whole camera around. [01:50:43] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:50:44] Speaker A: Which is pretty amazing. I can turn the hood around so I can shoot from any angle. [01:50:54] Speaker B: That's crazy. [01:50:56] Speaker A: And it works in thirds of a stop on here. [01:50:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so. [01:51:01] Speaker A: And on the lens. So everything I shot I could be within an eighth of a stop of what I really wanted. So for me it was a perfect camera. And it went for me from 92 to 2004. And then when I came back to. Came to Australia, I needed to take on digital and I did try the Leaf on this, but I felt like something said to me, you need to change now because it's. If you're going to invest this amount of money, you need to get something that's going to last. Know that the software is going to like everything's going to last. So I moved to Hasselblad and, and so I've. Which I still use now. So I've got my. Use my H2 and I've got an H1 and I had it started with a P45 back, but now I have an IQ 180. But I mean this is 8, 8 years old now, but still it's pretty amazing quality. The only thing that I have trouble with now is the grip batteries. So can't buy these, the, the normal ones anymore, the rechargeables. I have to use this battery one. So I have to get batteries for it every time I shoot pretty much. [01:52:22] Speaker B: Also. You put, you put batteries inside that. [01:52:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's just got like a trees in there. It's like a foot on location. And I had two of these anyway, but all my grips have died and you can't really get them anymore. I bought some reconditioned grips and they didn't last. So just throw that out. And so I just use that. And I've got a film back for this as well, which is really, really great. But to be honest, I am in a quandary of where to go next. I. I'm. I have been looking at the X2D Hasselblad and thinking about that. I think that's probably the only option for me. I tried Leica wasn't for me. I. Not 35 mil person. I'm really a bit stuck, to be honest, as to where to go next. This is not on the shoots. Like I use this on. On my dance shoots and my art shoots and the film back and the polish shoot and portraits and things. But it's not really that user friendly anymore for commercial jobs. And it's just. I'm finding it hard to focus it. It's failing me a bit. And I have found lately that I have to go through a certain routine to. For it actually to connect, to capture one. So I have to have the turn to have the body turn back, turned off. Have the body turned off, then turn on the back, plug it in, then plug into the computer and then start capture one and then turn on the body. [01:54:09] Speaker C: Okay. [01:54:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:10] Speaker C: So. [01:54:10] Speaker A: And that's the recent thing that's like. I don't know if the software's done that or what's done that. I never had issues. I mean, I remember when I first bought it, Rory saying to me, this is how you. This is the, the sequence. But I. Look, I never adhered to the sequence because who's got time? [01:54:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You just need it to work. [01:54:35] Speaker A: You just need it to work. But I now I had to sit down and I got. I spoke to Frannie as a business Mac tune, and we went through it all together and we just went through all the different ways that you can do it. And we worked out that's the system. And so now that's. I have to do that chain to get it to work too hard. Basket. Like it's just getting too hard. [01:55:01] Speaker B: So we interviewed Peter Colson last. Was that last week, Justin? All the week before. [01:55:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Yep. [01:55:08] Speaker B: And he was shooting with Hasselblads. What was he using? [01:55:11] Speaker C: I'm pretty sure it was the same as he uses. [01:55:14] Speaker A: He uses this, but he seems to have Leica and all sorts of things. [01:55:19] Speaker C: Yeah, he's got Leica too. But yeah, he. He talked about why. Why he didn't switch to the X2D. The things that he didn't like about that. And he talked about various issues with that camera despite the fact that he loves it and he's, you know, he's in tune with it after so many years of shooting. But multiple backs have died on him. Like he takes. Now he has to take a spare back when he travels internationally and things like that. [01:55:46] Speaker A: A bag. [01:55:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So he's got multiple backs for. I don't think it was an IQ180 though. I can't remember what back he was using. [01:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:55:55] Speaker C: For it. But he's had them die. Yeah. So it's one of those things that's sort of. Yeah, it's this sort of iconic pieces of gear that are coming, I guess towards the end of their useful life. But there's no. It's like what to go to next. It's kind of. [01:56:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, it's really hard because as he was saying, it's got to feel right. And I, I don't feel. Feel it's like that, that shoot with Jackie, with that model. Like if I've got a. My husband, he's got Canon and Norman Krueger. He's got Canon. [01:56:33] Speaker C: I was gonna ask. [01:56:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Norman Krueger and, and he, he's, he loves it. But I don't feel special with it. I don't feel like I'm creating something special. I need to have a camera that I feel like together we're making something really. [01:56:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:52] Speaker A: Special. [01:56:54] Speaker B: It's a tool, isn't it? It's got to feel right in your hand. [01:56:56] Speaker A: It's got to, it's got to feel right. I mean I, I did realize like, I don't really like this format. I prefer a square square format, but what can I do, you know? [01:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:57:08] Speaker A: So not possible. So this, this was my. This is like magic to work. Look through. You just look through it and you just like. Oh my God. Everything looks like a photo. It looks like a photo and this kind of gets there. But I don't know, I don't know. If you've got any answers, let me know because I'm in the market. I'm in the market. [01:57:32] Speaker C: We're probably not the, the best people to. For high end studio camera reviews, but I mean the only thing is. Yeah, like that would be. Have you shot with the X2D yet? The mirrorless hassle. [01:57:45] Speaker A: I borrowed it. Yeah, I borrowed it and I like. [01:57:47] Speaker C: How did it feel? [01:57:49] Speaker A: It actually felt good to hold still. Looking through the lens isn't like because it's a mirrorless kind of weird effect inside that digital effect. I don't really care about the things that Peter was talking about with knowing his exposure and everything. I, I don't really, I don't need that. But I, yeah, it felt good and the pictures were beautiful like what came off it and. But you have to use the focus software. Can't use Capture One, so that's a whole new thing. But because I'm not shooting as I used to commercially, it doesn't really matter. Like I, if I want to use cap Focus. If I have to use focus, I have to use focus. But in the advertising world and working with assistants and digital operators, you know they have their systems and they all work on Capture One, so. Yeah, but Capture One and Faze and Hasselblad aren't talking so actually physically, so that's not going to happen, which is a shame. But the focus software is good. [01:58:57] Speaker B: The. [01:58:58] Speaker A: So the. [01:58:59] Speaker C: I'm, I'm not right up with this stuff. So you'd want to do some, do some research with people that are, that are. But the. And Greg's gonna love that. I'm about to say this. The Fujifilm GFX100II which is their top end model essentially has the same size sensor. I think it is the same sensor as far as I'm aware, Greg, you might know that as the Unnatural Blood. But they, they have different color science and stuff in them. So certainly there are major differences. But essentially they're working off the same size sensor which is not the full size medium format. It's. It's larger than 35 but smaller than what you're used to with a full medium format back. Yeah, yeah, but it has. The GFX100II has very, has a great viewfinder with double the resolution of the Hasselblad the view that you're looking through. So you might find that it feels more like less like you're looking at a screen and more like you're looking at a photo. [02:00:02] Speaker A: Yes. [02:00:02] Speaker C: So yeah, it could be worth trying that one. It's, it's. Yeah, the, the biggest one that they do has the good viewfinder. Yeah, that would be interesting. But then, then you'd have to like look at whether their lens. Lenses have what you're looking for and all that. So it's a whole different system. But yeah, and I'm, I'm pretty sure they would be more. I'm positive they work with Capture One. I think they work with light. Yeah, they do as well. Like they're a lot more, you know, probably a Bit more accessible than the Hasselblad. So that could be an option. Other than that, I don't know this. That's a whole different world. [02:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:00:34] Speaker B: And it's interesting, a couple of weeks ago on one of our Monday night shows, Justin was talking, talking about how you know, when you decide to invest in either a new camera or a new piece of glass that your, your inherent skills take a backward step or your inherent quality of work takes a backward step because you have to now master something that's foreign to you. You know, a builder doesn't pick up a brand new nail gun and know how to, you know, instantly make it, make it work for him. You know, takes time to get to know it and you know, and cameras are no different. Have you ever found that with, with, you know, as you make those upgrades in your gear that actually there's a little bit of a backward step? Maybe quality is not the right word, but things just feel less com. Less. Less comfortable for you. Do you find that or are you able to pick it up and go for it? [02:01:31] Speaker A: No, I definitely felt that with moving from the Rollie to the hassle. Hassle blood like it was. And also you had the digital component also. I'm giving up the dark room, but I definitely took a long time for me to get to feel right. Looking through the Hasselblad, it. It was a, it was a different format. It just was it. It different to hold? It was a totally different experience. It wasn't as. I had to imagine more because looking through the Rolleiflex, it just is there, the picture is there and there's just something in it that I, that I was attuned to. It just worked for me. But the Hasselblad took a long time. Now that's all I've done. I haven't. I don't really use other cameras so. But there would be shoots where I'd have. Maybe I'd shoot on 10, 8 or 5, 4 or, or I'd borrow a Fuji GX 680 and because I wanted the shift, shifting, shift and tilt and I just kind of did it because I knew I wanted the effect of it and, and I, and I bypassed the emotional side of it. But when you know that this is your tool for all the time, I think you've got to feel really comfortable with it. And, and I. These two cameras, I have felt. So it is scary going into something else. If, if they could just have the Rolleiflex viewfinder in the Hasselblad and, And Be connected to phase then we'd be all good. [02:03:08] Speaker B: Perfect. [02:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. But it does, it does put you off. It's like anything like. And we are expected to know it. It's like when I was an assistant I was expected to know how to use strobe. I didn't know how to use those big strobes. It wasn't. I worked with Alencrom and later Broncolor and there was a guy here that made his own lights that everybody had. They were Bowens light but they key configured them. I didn't going into those studios like John street studio or Peter Bailey's studios where they had these massive boxes, these strobes that everyone said oh, you get electrocuted. You know, I just didn't. And this plug goes in that plug. Don't put that one in that one. And don't have that one in that one while you've got that one. It was all very confusing and, and you felt a bit stupid, you know, you felt like but I do know my thing but I don't know that equipment. And I think people do expect us to know everything and be oh, you know, you're a photographer. Can you show me how to use my camera? Well, not really. [02:04:19] Speaker C: Yeah, like if you have a hassleblad I can. [02:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly Justin, exactly. And. And I don't know, I mean I haven't been a geary person. Like I just. I haven't been a big accumulator of gear. I do love experimenting with lights and that was the great thing about working in London and it was assumed that you would hire in your lights so no one had their own lights. You just turn up to the studio, they get delivered, you place your order, they get delivered from wherever you rent them from. And it meant that you could change and swap and oh, what's that there? I might try that and experiment on the day and just get all this stuff in that you can play with and that I do love but. And I don't mind playing with that but the camera I'm not as interested in. Like I really want to feel. Yeah, this is. But saying that even with the lights there's some attachments that I know. Oh, this is my attachment. I love. I want that. [02:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:05:21] Speaker A: Or that. And. And if everything else I don't have, I just need those two things. [02:05:26] Speaker C: Yeah, what, what are those two things? You got a couple of go to modifiers that you're like if I, if I need to be dropped in a studio on the other side of the world, I Just I need at least to have these things. [02:05:37] Speaker A: Well, I love. I. I used to. When. When I did a lot of lingerie and hosiery photography. My. The light. The. The attachments I used a lot were the 5050 softbox. So a small square softbox ring flash, and later on a par. The par of the reflector from Broncolor. So I have my own power reflector, which is a very shiny dish, small dish with a lip which you can put a grid on, but you also get a soft glass for the. For the tube. So you get a frosted glass with it. And then after that, you know, of course, I love the fluter, which is a big hexagonal kind of like. It's like an old film light, but you stick the flash in the back of it and you can move the focus in and out. I do love being able to move focus in and out on a light from the head and from the actual light. So also the para, the broncolor para is something I like, but it's the 1170 or the 120. You've got to choose which one depending on where you are. And then putting the ring flash in the para is also a great look. So I'm always after a kind of a silvery light. A light that's luminous, like, has a luminosity to it. So I think most of those. And Even with the small 50, 50 softbox, often take off the front scrim and just have the inner scrim. So you have more silver. [02:07:21] Speaker C: Yeah, just the first diffuser and then open. Yeah. What sort of softbox is it? Usually like a textured silver on the inside. You know how some are like a shiny and some are textured. [02:07:32] Speaker A: The one. So I've got. I've got two tubs. The older ones were textured and the newer one is shiny. Yeah, so it's not shiny. It's just like a satin. [02:07:44] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [02:07:46] Speaker A: Satin feel. But it's important then to work with the. The pulsar heads and. And focus the light in those. All these attachments, like, actually play with the focus of the. Of the tube. I love all that stuff. I love. Actually love it more than cameras. [02:08:07] Speaker C: It sounds amazing. I like. Unfortunately, my lights don't have any of that capability. They don't have focusing or. Yeah, so they're just the cheaper Godox, you know, what's available today, which is. I was gonna say, which is so crazy now, how cheap it is that you can set up, you know, a somewhat capable studio anywhere for. For pretty low prices. Now with lighting compared to what I imagine it used to be like where like you were talking about everything needed to be rented, it would have been super expensive. I'm sure to set up your own lighting kit. Yeah, yeah. It's very accessible now. [02:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I love the whole renting thing though. I mean that was kind of like you. You'd have the budget there to do it and. And you just can experiment with trying different things. Yeah. We have some go docs here and I did use them on something recently. Recently and they were very easy. So no chords, no, you know, nothing to. Which was great because I was moving around so much. But yeah, I. Wrong colors usually my choice. Yeah. [02:09:19] Speaker C: Quick question in the chat. I know we're almost, we're almost out of time, but LTK photo wants to know, have you looked at the Hasselblad 907X that also works with the older Hasselblad 500cm. You know the. I'll see if I can. [02:09:31] Speaker A: That little. Is that that little flat one? [02:09:33] Speaker C: The box? Yeah, it's like a. Hang on, where is it? Here we go. This one? [02:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:09:46] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [02:09:47] Speaker A: I kind of can't get my head around that one. [02:09:49] Speaker C: Me neither. Like it looks, it looks very cool but I couldn't quite work out. Yeah. Who it was aimed at. [02:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:02] Speaker B: It's such a good looking camera though. [02:10:04] Speaker C: It does look cool but I mean. [02:10:07] Speaker B: You'Re gonna need to add a grip. [02:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:10:12] Speaker B: A lot of people on social media are shooting with these because they do that point of view where they must be wearing meta glasses and they're, they're looking down at that like that shot there. [02:10:20] Speaker C: Like this. Yeah. [02:10:22] Speaker B: Instagram. [02:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:10:25] Speaker B: It must be a very accessible system because I see lots of people shooting with it. [02:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I should, I should try it out. [02:10:32] Speaker B: I should try rent it for a bit, see what happens. [02:10:37] Speaker A: Ask for a borrow one. [02:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Surely, surely these camera brands would be lining up to send you stuff. [02:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I was never that kind of person. You know, I never got anything from anybody. But I did recently look at becoming a happ. A blood ambassador. But I don't know, it's not that easy that they don't really do it like they used to. [02:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:11:01] Speaker A: I think Manfrotto was pretty good at doing all that sort of thing, but I never had that. Although I've always used Manfrotto. [02:11:08] Speaker C: You know, you weren't, you weren't chasing that sort of stuff. You were busy doing your work. Yeah, doing. [02:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [02:11:17] Speaker B: Very cool. [02:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:19] Speaker B: Well, look, I'M very conscious of time, Bronwyn, and I think that might be a natural stopping place for our conversation. Just on behalf of all of us here at the Camera Life podcast and obviously all the wonderful people we have in our audience today, thank you so much for your time and your insight and your inspiration, but I think more importantly for showing the humility with which you approach your work and the results that obviously speak for themselves. We look forward to seeing what you've got on the horizon and what's coming next for you. And we wish you all the very best, but we would like to find out one day what camera you do end up moving to. [02:11:55] Speaker A: I'll let you know. [02:11:56] Speaker C: Definitely let us know. Especially Greg will be so excited. If it is a Fujifilm, he'll be doing a little dance. [02:12:03] Speaker B: I like Fujifilm. I'm surprised you suggested it before I did. So there you go. [02:12:08] Speaker C: Well, as soon as I looked into that viewfinder on the gfx. Like it? It is a next level viewfinder. It's one of the nicest that is on the market for sure. Yeah, yeah. So. [02:12:20] Speaker B: And the images are good too. [02:12:22] Speaker A: Thank you for having me. I think I might join you every Thursday morning. [02:12:26] Speaker C: Hey, anytime. We'd love to have you. There's so many we've like, we've skipped. You know, we basically skipped from 2004 to. To now. So there's so many years we could still fill in. Yeah. There's plenty of other stuff we could talk. Talk about, that's for sure. And I'm like, I was. So to make a note, I have got Andrew. Now. How do I pronounce it? I've had his website up. I didn't realize he was a pilot photographer. When you said aerial aerials and stuff like he's so he's assessing a pilot. I'm like this. [02:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:13:00] Speaker C: Yes. This is cool. [02:13:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Please contact. Andrew is a great guy and he, he. Yes, he's attached the. The. The highest end Hasselblad to his Sorry. Phase camera. Phase to his Cessna. [02:13:17] Speaker B: So. Yeah, it's crazy. [02:13:18] Speaker C: The images are beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm excited. [02:13:23] Speaker A: Kim Tenelli as well. [02:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah, Kim got Kim down. And we'll also take a look at your husband's work. [02:13:28] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'll pull that up as well. Norman Krueger. I think it's. Is it. I think I've got the right one. [02:13:33] Speaker B: One. [02:13:33] Speaker C: Is it Norman kruger.com? [02:13:35] Speaker A: Yes. [02:13:35] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Looks like commercial. All sorts of stuff. [02:13:40] Speaker A: We met in a camera store. There you go. [02:13:43] Speaker C: Did you really? [02:13:43] Speaker B: Oh, that's the ultimate story. [02:13:45] Speaker C: Okay, do you have time to tell us how. How that went down? [02:13:48] Speaker B: Tell us. [02:13:49] Speaker A: So we. We both worked in a camera store in Greensboro called Photo Express, and we worked kind of different. Different shifts. I wasn't very good at selling cameras. He was really good at selling cameras. He was also assisting at the time. And I was probably still at RMIT or just going part time and. And we were just kind of ships in the night really, because we weren't often on. Together on the shifts. But he. He had a girlfriend at the time as well. And. And then I went to London. He came to my leaving party with his girlfriend. I went to London and I took some photos at my leaving party. And I don't know, I cut her out, but I cut her out of the photo and, you know, why? [02:14:41] Speaker C: Not sure why. [02:14:43] Speaker A: And then he sent me a photo of himself, a black and white one. I found it the other day, actually. It's kind of like this, you know, it's a. It's done in the studio and it says Love, Norman on it. Anyway, years and years pass. I come back and he says that he's getting married and would you like to meet my wife? And I thought, oh, I don't know, you know, And I didn't meet his wife. And then again, I come back from England on another visit. Oh, we're having a baby. We had a baby. Like to come and see the baby. I thought, oh, I'm not sure if I want to see the baby. Anyway, we kind of kept this friendship for a long time. We did go to China together as well, especially assisting an American photographer that was out here in the late 80s, early 90s, Pat Scanlon. And anyway, I went to. Stayed in London, came back to live, and then I thought, oh, my. He separated from his wife and I thought I might match him up with my girlfriend. And then I decided, no, I think he's right for me. So that was that. 97 or 98. And we got together in 2004. [02:15:50] Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's cool. [02:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, so cool. Yeah, yeah. Two photographers. [02:15:58] Speaker B: Lovely. [02:15:58] Speaker A: In one bed. [02:16:00] Speaker C: Yeah. And a Canon. A Cannon shooter. Just a run of the mill every day. Not. Not just, Just a stock standard. You could buy it at any shop. Cannon shooter. [02:16:12] Speaker A: He was Nikon until about two years ago. [02:16:15] Speaker B: Interesting. [02:16:17] Speaker A: But don't tell Juliet Nick on. He said so. [02:16:19] Speaker C: Yeah, she's still grumpy at me about that too. I did the same thing. So, you know, it's just a quick. [02:16:25] Speaker B: That's part of it question early when we first. Earlier in the show, you messaged your stepson. Yes, that's the baby. Who you refuse to meet out of pure jealousy. Oh, there you go. Really cool. [02:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah, he's down the back room. He's actually working for the guy who introduced me to Andrew Vukasov. So there you go. It all goes. [02:16:46] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [02:16:48] Speaker A: Who worked at Van Bar. So he's doing something web. Web. Web design. Web stuff. [02:16:54] Speaker C: Okay. Oh, nice. [02:16:56] Speaker A: Who knows what it is? [02:16:57] Speaker B: Well, I had a friend, one of my friends in high school used to work at Vanbar. [02:17:01] Speaker A: Oh, really? [02:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah, after high school he worked there part time. We did photography together and actually I've just told this story on my blog and we're in high school together and we had a bit of a falling out over something and we kind of fell out of touch. And then last week I met up with him for the first time in over 30 years and more reminiscing about, you know, the weekends we'd go and hang out at Vanbar and just draw over all the gear and, you know, what's his name? Luke Briffa. [02:17:28] Speaker A: Luke. [02:17:29] Speaker C: Luke. [02:17:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I think he went back at some point in the past three decades to work there for a little bit, but. But yeah, it's just interesting here. As soon as you said Vanbar, it just brought up all these memories. It was. [02:17:43] Speaker A: It's still a good place if you need. [02:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I haven't been processed. [02:17:46] Speaker A: Film, they process. But also if you need a certain background, they've got all the coloramas there. You know, they've always got this. They got so much. [02:17:56] Speaker B: Is that. [02:17:56] Speaker C: Did they merge with someone? Is that where I bought my backdrops from, I think. Or are they. Oh, you're thinking about Borgs and Dragons. [02:18:08] Speaker A: I'm not sure if it might be Dragon. [02:18:10] Speaker B: She's another blast from the past. [02:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think Borg Anderson died. [02:18:16] Speaker B: It's a small world. [02:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Peter, I'm sure Pete. Peter Barronow who owns Van Bar. He put me in contact with a photographer when I left for London, called Greg. Oh, Kim's probably listening and she's. How can you forget Greg's name anyway? Can't think right now. And Greg like got me the job in the cafe and. And then it just sort of, you know, it's just about people championing you and see, saying, meet this person. And I think you get along with them and. And that's how everything has rolled for me really is in people. People's generosity. Yeah, yeah. [02:19:01] Speaker B: And it comes back to what I said earlier about, you know, I, I believe that every photographer has a responsibility to support the, the early stages of new photographers that are entering the market. I think it's, it's that tradition of, you know, trades, blacksmiths always had an apprentice. [02:19:19] Speaker A: Yes. [02:19:19] Speaker B: You know, Ferrier's always had apprentices. You know, it's about handing on that craft so it's not lost to time. [02:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:26] Speaker B: And, and I think that any photographer who supports, you know, up and coming photographers should be celebrated. [02:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:19:33] Speaker B: It's really important to a part of learning how this industry works and actually making it successful. [02:19:38] Speaker A: Yes. [02:19:40] Speaker B: But look, we will wrap it up there and quickly, Greg. [02:19:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Vanbar, if you're feeling nostalgic for the old days of you when you go and drill there. I don't. I wonder, Bronwyn, whether. What if it is web stuff, the website is og. I know, it's like. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's almost so old that it's cool again. Like, if a brand made this website now, people would be like, oh, yeah, this is awesome. This is like a retro website. And all I've had to do. It's amazing. Yeah, there's so much stuff on here too. [02:20:14] Speaker A: There's so much stuff. I don't know. How would you even keep up with all of that? I mean, it really is so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to put. Take your hat off to Peter for keeping that business going. [02:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [02:20:31] Speaker C: Wouldn't be easy at all. Yeah, it's a long time. And to keep like retail is so hard. [02:20:38] Speaker A: Yes. [02:20:39] Speaker C: And particularly with what the camera industry now. [02:20:44] Speaker A: Yes. [02:20:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:20:45] Speaker C: So, yeah, very impressive. But yeah, that website, if anyone's listening, go to vanbar.com and check it out. It's awesome. Yeah, cool. [02:20:58] Speaker B: All right, thank you, thank you. Once again, it's been an absolute privilege to, to spend some time getting to know who you are, but also, you know, appreciating your body of work and, and where it has led you over the years. We're going to play some, some outro music and say goodbye to some people in the chat. Yeah, you're ready. You're not ready for it, are you? [02:21:19] Speaker C: I was not ready for that at all. [02:21:21] Speaker B: He's never ready for the sound effects. Never. [02:21:24] Speaker C: All right, here we go. There we go. Okay, cool. Robert Varner says great show as usual. Hope it's not too cold over there. Still, Robert, he's. He's been getting snowed in in New Jersey. Philip Johnson, good to see you. Julie Powell, thanks for joining us. Paul Sutton. Late to the show, late to the party. But that's okay. It says the feel in the hand is so important. It is. Ethan Thompson. Wow. My first 35 mil was a picture. Pentax me. Super with 50 mil. Took some great pics with that. Very cool. [02:21:56] Speaker B: That's amazing. [02:21:57] Speaker C: Who else? Who else? Paul, Lisa Leach, everybody was here. It was a great morning. If you're listening back later, throw a comment down below and otherwise we'll catch you all on Monday's show. [02:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Monday night we're joined by Do. Yeah. Took Film and Levin. Barrett's going to drop in with a very special surprise for us. [02:22:15] Speaker C: Very cool. [02:22:16] Speaker B: Stick around. [02:22:16] Speaker C: All right. [02:22:17] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:22:18] Speaker C: Thanks, Bronwyn. Have a good day. [02:22:20] Speaker B: Thanks, Bronwyn. [02:22:21] Speaker A: See everybody. [02:22:22] Speaker B: Be safe. [02:22:23] Speaker A: Bye.