Eric Yip | Balancing Photography, Family & a Global Career (EP178)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sa. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Good morning, everybody. This is the Camera Life podcast. It's the 30th of April, and we are Greg Less. That's right, we have no Greg. It's just me and maybe a special [00:00:37] Speaker C: guest by the name of Eric Yip. But I'll get to that in just one second. [00:00:41] Speaker B: This show is brought to you by Lucky Straps, and it brings you the show two times a week. Monday nights, the random photography show, and then Thursday mornings. Today, we bring on iconic photographers to talk about their journey, what they're up to, their gear, everything. [00:00:57] Speaker C: We dig into all of it. [00:00:59] Speaker B: And yeah, that brings us to today's guest, Eric Yip. Good morning. How are you? [00:01:06] Speaker A: Oh. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Oh. We've got no sound. Hold on. I can't hear you. Can you hear me? Eric, you can hear me, but I can't hear you. What has happened? This is bizarre. First time Greg's not here and everything's gone. Got that, Got that. I wonder if the people in the chat can hear you. [00:01:24] Speaker C: This is very, very interesting. [00:01:27] Speaker B: I'm just gonna bring you out and [00:01:28] Speaker C: bring you back in again. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Try that. Nothing. What is happening? Oh, my gosh. All right, bear with us. [00:01:40] Speaker C: Maybe someone can help. Help chat. Can you hear Eric? [00:01:52] Speaker B: Very interesting. Sorry, team. To let the team down with no Greg, and we've ended up with. Maybe it's my Internet private chat. Eric can hear me perfectly. How bizarre. No, can't hear Eric, but Matt Boyle can hear me. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:10] Speaker C: Okay, thanks, team. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Maybe Eric, if you just go out of the studio and back in, it [00:02:14] Speaker C: might just reset things. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Give that a try. [00:02:16] Speaker A: I'll. [00:02:18] Speaker C: I'll keep the ball rolling on this end. [00:02:21] Speaker B: While he's doing that, a little bit about Eric. He's a commercial photographer from Sydney, but works all over the world. Singapore, New York, and mainly focuses on corporate and lifestyle brands for. What would you call it, lifestyle action [00:02:39] Speaker C: and even built environment industrial photography. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Very, very impressive work. [00:02:44] Speaker C: Let's try that. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Can you hear me? Still nothing. You can hear me? I can't hear you. This is bizarre. Yep. Can hear Justin. Can't hear Eric. So weird. We were just chatting the whole time leading up to the. We've been. We've been having a good old chat. This is insane. No, that's all good. That's all good. I don't know what else it could be. Maybe, just maybe go into your. Into your settings, down the bottom. Eric, go to the audio section and just double check that your mic is still set to MacBook. Mm. While you're doing that, I'll just. I'll Say good morning to the chat that's helping us out. Philip Johnson's here. [00:03:39] Speaker C: Paul's here. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Oh, I hear something. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Does that work? [00:03:42] Speaker B: Now you're back. What? That was the weird how good it [00:03:47] Speaker A: said, it said microphone something. Anyway, it's on. Might have been on my end. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it must have been when we, when our video played. Maybe it like muted it and it didn't, didn't bring it back or something. That was so strange. Anyway, we'll just, we'll kick it off now. Actually, let me, let me just finish saying good morning to everybody because they've all been helping us out. Dead troubleshoot. Matt Boyle's here. Paul is here. Phil Thompson's is here. Who else is here? Everyone's here. [00:04:18] Speaker C: Okay, perfect. [00:04:20] Speaker B: All right, Eric, you're here. I gave a little bit of an intro, but let's just, let's just recap. Can you give me, in your own words, a quick 60 second run? Who are you? What do you do in the world of photography? [00:04:35] Speaker A: Okay, well, if we stick to photography, right now I'm a commercial photographer. Right. Okay. I shoot images in the lifestyle and built environment space which is used in commercial advertising and brand work. Right. So a lot of it is brand work now because the advertising space is evolving. Yeah. But true and true. I think as a photographer, I'm, I'm a documentary photographer. I love walking, making pictures, being in culture, shooting, religion. Yeah. Okay, so travel is my, my soul. Yeah, let's put it that way. Yeah. [00:05:15] Speaker B: So that's so interesting because obviously you've built an amazing commercial photography brand. [00:05:23] Speaker C: EYXL. EYXL.com is the website if everyone wants to check out the work. We'll probably bring some of it up later. [00:05:31] Speaker B: And it's, it's pretty heavily focused on, you know, what you bring to the [00:05:36] Speaker C: table as a commercial photographer for brands. [00:05:40] Speaker B: But you describe yourself more as a travels you soul documentary. And you said you just got back from China. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I did, I did. Well, just, just on that. It's just a storytelling which really appeals to me. Right. So I'm, I bring that to the commercial work as best I can. Right. But commercial photography demands something completely different, right? [00:06:06] Speaker C: Yes. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Time is often not the ingredient that they, they give a lot of to the production. Yeah. Which means you've got to get things done as quickly as possible. But time is also the magic ingredient for, for good photography. Right. I look at amazing street photographers. You look at war photography at the time, you know, they're spending a lot of time and presence in front of your Subject. Right. National and Geographic. These projects go on for years. And then you, you pick six pages of, of images to use, right? [00:06:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:41] Speaker A: So I think that that's the big difference and that's how I try and bring what I believe I love into the photography for my clients. Right. But if I won Powerball today, right, I'll be, I'll be living in villages and traveling countries and getting real deep into culture. Right. So that, that's, that's the difference. Yeah. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Really? So that is, that is your passion. That's, that's your love. Traveling, documenting. That's so it's so timely. [00:07:14] Speaker C: I actually leave, I leave to go [00:07:15] Speaker B: to Indonesia for a month on Sunday and I've, I'm currently just prepping and packing my gear, putting a lens in, taking it back out again, putting it back in again, taking it out again, trying to decide what to, what to take. What did you. So how long were you, were you in China for? [00:07:36] Speaker A: We were there for, for 18 days. 19 days. Yeah. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Were you moving around a lot or kind of Gold was Shangri La. [00:07:47] Speaker A: And Shangri La is close to the Tibetan plateau, so it's, it's pretty high up. So what we did is we flew into Kunming and we every three, four days would, would go up towards Shangri La so that we acclimatized. You can fly in, you can take a high speed rail, but you'll be suffering altitude adjustments and issues. Yeah. So it's just not, not, not what I wanted to, to experience. Yeah. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:17] Speaker C: Right. [00:08:18] Speaker A: So we spent all that time just heading up there and then once we were finished, we just took the five hour train back. Yeah. [00:08:26] Speaker B: How much gear did you take? [00:08:29] Speaker A: Too much. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Okay, so it's not just me that's good. [00:08:36] Speaker A: I remember me and my, my wife, we, we climbed a mountain in, in east Malaysia called Mount Kinabalu. And that was about a high, high 3,000 meters or so. And I carried a 60 liter pack full of lenses, two bodies and whatnot. And after that I said to myself, never again. Learn your lesson. Right? Learn your lesson because you don't use half of it. That's to begin with. Right. And you can't approach it, you know, as a. Oh, I've got to cover failure points. Right. It's, it's not a commercial shoot. Yeah. But this time I, I did my best. Bags over there still hasn't been unpacked. Show you. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah, bring it. Let's. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Since you asked, [00:09:20] Speaker B: I had, that sounded hefty. [00:09:23] Speaker A: I had two cameras and that's it. Right. So it was the ZF with the Voigtlander 40 and the Z8 with a 15 millimeter white lander as well for the Z. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Are they both. Are those Voigtlanders both manual focus lenses? [00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I decided to specifically go manual so that I would slow down. I think that's one of my, one of my behaviors that I wanted to switch when I was on trip so that I could, you know, just see a little more and shoot a little less. Yeah, yeah. Did it work on commercial shoots? You're shooting a lot to get, get into the space. I remember the last project I did over three days was about two and a half terabytes worth of images. Yeah. I mean, granted, I mean these images are used for. For compo composites and whatnot. Right. So you need to shoot elements. Right. But nonetheless, still, that's a lot of shooting. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was my gear. But still pretty heavy that glass and two bodies, you know, I think that weighs about eight, eight kilograms or so. Yeah. Including batteries and whatnot. And I had to carry a lot of mats because it's just cold weather. Right. It drains the batteries. [00:10:49] Speaker C: Yep. [00:10:49] Speaker B: It is nice though. Now how good is it now that you can charge batteries in the bodies? You know like with usbc, I remember traveling and you'd have to be put the big bulky like 240 volt charger in or whatever. [00:11:05] Speaker C: And then now. Yeah, now if it's, if it's not a trip that I'm shooting a ton on where I don't need to charge like multiple batteries at once or whatever, you just plug the body into a power know power outlet on your USB C charger and off you go. I love that. That was a big. [00:11:18] Speaker B: I can't believe it took so long. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's good that the tech developed in that way because you also, you know, if you're shooting video, you get to plug it in and just run power off it. [00:11:30] Speaker C: Exactly. That's what I'm doing right now. [00:11:32] Speaker B: I got the, got the R5 Mark [00:11:33] Speaker C: II using it as a webcam that [00:11:35] Speaker B: for some reason seems to be hunting focused this morning. But yeah, it's just running off. [00:11:41] Speaker A: Yeah, focus seems okay. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Oh, that's good. [00:11:45] Speaker A: But these things I carry with me as well. They're pretty heavy. Right. I think this one's a 25,000milliamp. So I plug the two, the two USB Cs into the two cameras and I can just charge them to go even when I'm walking around. And if I run that, that's cool, right? [00:12:06] Speaker C: Yep. [00:12:07] Speaker A: But it is heavy, so it's weight. Yeah. You're a CrossFit guy. Right. So think of it as rucking, rocking whilst making images. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So a little extra fitness is that thing. Do you have any trouble flying with that thing? For those that are just listening like, it's a pretty. [00:12:28] Speaker C: It's a beefy power bank that Eric was just holding up. Like it's a. [00:12:31] Speaker B: It's huge. [00:12:32] Speaker C: And I think he said it was 25,000. Thousand milliamp. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Is that under the limit to fly with or how does that work? [00:12:40] Speaker A: It is the. I think the limit is more. The less the capacity, more the. The power output. So it's. I may be wrong here for the technical guys listening, but it's 100 watt hours, which is the limit, which is how much power that puts right. However I had, I have learned a lesson. Justin, I'm glad you brought that up. I've got lots of power banks. Lots. And they usually have all these standards on it, right? [00:13:10] Speaker C: Yep. [00:13:11] Speaker A: But if you're traveling in China now, there's a new standard. It's called ccc, the Chinese China. I. I can't remember. Something to do with standards. So ever since they had all that trouble with power banks on the planes, China released a new standard last year in June. So if you don't have that, they take it away straight away. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Really? [00:13:36] Speaker A: Just to clarify, that's only domestic. If you're flying in, nothing happens. Right. If you're flying out, again, nothing happens. But if you're flying domestic, domestic power bank away. So I lost, I lost my, my, my big one. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:13:52] Speaker A: 7, 27,000. [00:13:56] Speaker B: No, that wouldn't have been a cheap power bank. [00:13:59] Speaker A: No, no, it wasn't. But you know what? I'm, I'm glad that they took action so quickly, you know? [00:14:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:06] Speaker A: And. And it's a country like that that, that has power to do things so, so quickly. Okay. It's new standard. Let's get this thing up and running. And boom. All of the power banks are safe now on the plane. And you can't use it on the plane anymore. You may or may not know. Right. So you can bring it on the plane, but you can't use it, really. Yep. You can't use it. So most of the planes now have a, have a power socket which you can bring your own charger on. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:37] Speaker C: And so basically no power banks at all on the plane in use. Like you can't. Yeah. You can't just whip. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that. Is that pretty wide? Like, is that widely adopted everywhere now? [00:14:49] Speaker A: I, I don't know. But for this trip to China, that's, that's what it was. Yeah. And this was my latest trip overseas. Yeah. My last trip last year to Japan, it was. No, no problem. Yeah. To Singapore, no problem. Yeah. So it must be quite new. [00:15:05] Speaker B: Must be new. [00:15:06] Speaker C: Yeah. I think the last time I flew, yeah, it was no drama, but can't remember when that was last year sometime. [00:15:12] Speaker A: But you should check for your leisure trip just in case. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I, we usually, I usually [00:15:18] Speaker C: don't have to use one on the plane anyway. That's like. Yeah. Charge your devices beforehand. And then they, like you say, they usually have a plug in the seat or something like that so you can get, get through if you need to. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Very cool. So China, it wasn't a work trip, it was a, [00:15:37] Speaker C: just a trip, just [00:15:38] Speaker B: a enjoyment trip for you. But you took your cameras and before the show you said it was hopefully a chance to, to. [00:15:48] Speaker C: What did you say? [00:15:50] Speaker B: Refill your cup for the soul. Like it was when you travel. How important is shooting and traveling? How important is that to your work [00:16:03] Speaker C: and keeping the motivation and the passion alive in your day to day work as a commercial photographer? [00:16:09] Speaker A: I think, I think I see you from a life perspective first because that's the way I look at it. Whatever you do, I think you need, you need to recharge, right. You need to defragment your hard drive back in the day. You need to meditate to clear your mind. And your eye is the same thing. You need to refresh your eye because you're continually seeing the same thing over and over again. I have a really strong sense of being refreshed the moment I step into an airport. Right. Because everything becomes so transient. People's spaces are changing every second. Everyone's accents are different. Yeah. All the languages change. Everyone's dressed differently. Some are in pajamas, some are in suits. Right. So everything is just new as soon as I, I step into the airport. So I find travel very refreshing, not only from a photography standpoint, but just taking you out of context so that you see things differently. So I, I make it a point to travel as much as I can, as much as I can so that when I come back I can, I can, I can really work now from, from a career perspective. Right. I, I was a human resources consultant for many years, like 14 years in corporate life before I became a photographer. Right. The stars in line. And I, I could, I could take, make that step, right? And I was shooting religion and culture and travel all that time, Right. I had the money to travel at the time and take a month of work. 2013, I, I witnessed a ritual called the Kumila. It's the largest gathering of humanity in the world. And, and this, this idea stemmed from Steve McCurry, actually. He came to Singapore, I met him, had a five minute conversation with him and I asked him, hey, what is it that changed your life? And is it this event went home? And I googled it and guess what? It was happening next year. So these things happen in a 144 year cycle, right? The big cub, right. So it was 33 million people in one little town, right. It's where the rivers meet and they believe that it creates a mystical river where two rivers are the confluence and then it creates a magical space so they bathe in it, cleanse their sins, break the cycle of samsara, that kind of thing. So I went and changed my life really. [00:18:54] Speaker B: So, so this was in 2013, what country is this in India. [00:18:59] Speaker A: India. [00:19:00] Speaker B: In India, Yeah. [00:19:01] Speaker A: It's in a place called Prayag. The new name's Allahabad, right? Yeah. And I, I think I was there for two weeks, two and a half weeks, yeah. [00:19:14] Speaker B: And you photo, you photographed it? [00:19:16] Speaker A: I photographed some of it, yeah, absolutely. Some of it, yeah, absolutely. Some of the images are on the website somewhere in the project section. Deep, deep inside. Yeah. So, so this trip to China reminded me of that period of my life, right. Where I was traveling and, and, and walking without a brief, just looking, seeing and, and experiencing. And paid off. Right? The experiences, the experiences were amazing. Yeah. And it just reminds you that the photography is, the photography experience is not necessarily about the images. Right. The process and what happens along the way. I remember this one particular shot I was planning for. It was at Shangri La. There's a big monastery, huge monasteries. I think it's one of the biggest ones outside of Tibetan. And I, I woke up early in the morning. I saw a shot from, from Google. Yeah. On having, having the lake in the foreground and the, the monastery in the background with the, with the mountain range silhouetted. It was a perfect morning. Took me a long time to get there. It was in the dark, so and so forth. Everyone knows about that if you're a photographer. But it was what happened afterwards, right? It was, I'd say I woke up at five, it was maybe nine o' clock and by that time I'm hungry because there's no seven elevens and you know, you can't get food early in the morning. And it was a road sweeper, right. Clearing. Clearing the road backlit. And I was taking pictures. I was trying to get a picture of her. I didn't get one. And I. She started coming up to me and saying, oh, what are you doing? And I don't speak Chinese, despite looking like this. Don't speak the language. So I just rubbed my stomach. I said, hey, I'm. I'm hungry. I've been taking photographs for a long period of time. Right. And she said, follow me. All right. And she took me into, like, a Tibetan guest house which she was the owner of. After, you know, half an hour of a duck and a chicken, trying to figure out each other, figured out that she owned the place. And she fed me bread, yak, tea, noodles, meats. It. It was a. It was a big breakfast. And that experience was, you know, it just reminded me of the. The type of things that I'm chasing all the time, you know, that connection. [00:22:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker A: And because we couldn't speak the language, all the. The chat was about the images. Right. So here's what I was doing, you know, and, and, and with that, you don't need to. You don't need to speak the language. You're just showing pictures. Right? Yeah, that's. [00:22:21] Speaker B: That's amazing. And it's one of those things that you can't plan for things like that to happen. [00:22:27] Speaker C: You can just put yourself in the situations where that might unfold. [00:22:31] Speaker B: You can't. You can't go on a trip and [00:22:33] Speaker C: say, oh, my goal is to end up in a. In a guest house, you know, but, but without planning it, and hopefully get fed a nice breakfast, you know, like that. That's. You can't manufacture that kind of experience. You just have to. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Follow, I guess, follow you very good [00:22:49] Speaker A: travel agent and pay a lot of money. You would. [00:22:52] Speaker B: Yeah, but it wouldn't be the same. [00:22:56] Speaker A: Indeed, Indeed. Wow. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So. So you really do use the camera [00:23:01] Speaker C: as a way to experience the world, [00:23:05] Speaker B: to go on a journey where the [00:23:08] Speaker C: image isn't the most important outcome. It's enhancing life, I guess, [00:23:17] Speaker A: just to give you some numbers so that it has effect. I think I must have shot, I don't know, 4,000 images on that trip. And maybe you'd pick 10. Right. Maybe you pick 20 most. Right. So, you know, if. If logic prevails, the photography is never the outcome, you know, because there's this. There's too much of it to fit into, you know, the output of just the images. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:23:49] Speaker B: What Switching gears a little bit and we will dig back into your, your career change. [00:23:55] Speaker C: I want to find out all about that because that's fascinating. But. [00:24:00] Speaker B: So you might said you might select [00:24:02] Speaker C: 10 to 20 images out of these 4,000. [00:24:06] Speaker B: What have you learned about that process [00:24:09] Speaker C: of selecting, editing and selecting images and an image set for a purpose through your career? [00:24:15] Speaker B: Because obviously you would have worked with. [00:24:17] Speaker C: You work with representation, with agencies for your commercial work. You work with clients who you have to provide images to and then see what gets selected for campaigns and things like that. [00:24:31] Speaker B: What like how do you think about [00:24:34] Speaker C: selecting images from a large set that you've shot? [00:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think this is probably one of the more underrated and the process that gets the least attention I think these days. Unfortunately, the, the, the, the editor used to be the one guy with the most important job in a, in a magazine or book. Right. Because he or she would be selecting the story. You know, they'll be picking out of a thousand rolls of film that were sent back by photographers and that picks six images to tell the story. Right. So with selection, I think in a whole set of images that you shoot for a project, there are multiple stories within it. And making sure you understand what you want to say to begin with will guide the selection. Will guide the edit. Right. And by edit I mean the selection, not the photoshopping and the color grading and whatnot. So to answer your question, I think the one key thing is knowing your story. Right. Knowing what you want to say. And, and out of a, A, A shoot, you'll get multiple stories coming out of it depending on what you want to. What you want to say. And then below that, after you make the selection, will be the grading. Yeah. The compositional elements that will then help story. Right. So a lot of give you an example, a lot of cinematic images, as they call it. Yeah. That want to be. It want to be letterbox type. Right. So that it focuses on the eyes or focuses on the landscape. Right. So all of those are simply tools to the message that you want to. Want to create with a small set of images. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually a really good point I had. I don't know if I've ever thought [00:26:28] Speaker C: about it in that way of [00:26:31] Speaker B: that maybe I shouldn't trying to think about [00:26:35] Speaker C: how I go about it and I think I go about it differently depending [00:26:37] Speaker B: on what I've shot, but that I probably shouldn't be editing and so I shouldn't be. [00:26:46] Speaker C: I'm trying to think of it. [00:26:47] Speaker B: Let's say selecting is choosing the images [00:26:50] Speaker C: and editing is actually editing the images [00:26:53] Speaker B: that I shouldn't be editing them prior to figuring out what the story is [00:26:58] Speaker C: in the selection, because that can then inform the edit. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Is that. Is that what you mean? As in choosing the crop? [00:27:07] Speaker C: And if, you know, if you're going to change the crop of how you originally shot it or something like that, or how you're going to grade and treat the image in the edit will be informed by the story that you're trying to tell with the selection of images that you've chosen. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Correct? Correct. Now, that's only one perspective, Justin. At the end of the day, everyone shoots how they feels. How they feel. [00:27:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Right. On my. On my zf, it's always in monochrome. Right. Just because I see the light better and whatnot. But also because, you know, I like shooting in monochrome. Right? Yeah. It makes me feel something. Right. And some people I've seen should shoot in 16 by 9. Right. The drone guys, for example. Right. Yeah. They're shooting in 16 by 9 all the time. But yeah, I say. But aren't you, you know, underutilizing the sensor? Right. It's a, it's a 4x3. Because. Well, no, because it makes. I can see it happen, and then it informs me right now what I have to shoot. Right. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:10] Speaker A: So I think everyone has their, Their. Their process. Yeah. So it's. Whatever works. But the way I would do it is. Yeah, I would. I would find my story first. Right. And then start to massage the image accordingly. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Okay. How does that work with commercial. [00:28:31] Speaker C: And obviously, every. This is probably broad strokes. Every. Every shoot's different, every client's different. [00:28:37] Speaker B: But in general, when you're talking about [00:28:40] Speaker C: the work that you've done with. I mean, I was looking at some of the brands earlier, like Snap on Tools, nrma, Commonwealth Bank, Barry's Boot Camp, Adidas, which also, since you've worked with them, is it Adidas or Adidas in Australia? What's the. What's the rule on that? [00:28:59] Speaker B: What do you do when you talk [00:29:00] Speaker C: to a brand like that? [00:29:01] Speaker A: Do you. [00:29:02] Speaker C: You say Adidas? [00:29:04] Speaker A: I say Adidas. Yeah. [00:29:06] Speaker C: Do you say. Do you say Nikon or Nikon? [00:29:09] Speaker A: Definitely Nikon. Okay, good. I was just checking. I find Nikon's very American. Yeah. [00:29:14] Speaker B: But, yeah, [00:29:17] Speaker A: I grew up in Commonwealth countries, so. Nikon. [00:29:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:20] Speaker C: Okay. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Yes. When you, when you're working with these big brands, do you have any input on the selection? Like, does it go. You shoot and then you do a selection, and then they choose from that [00:29:33] Speaker C: selection how they want to Use that in their branding and things. [00:29:36] Speaker B: How does that work? [00:29:37] Speaker A: Okay, it's ideally and the way it should work. It's very collaborative. Right. You shoot a series of images and then you shortlist together. And then together with the art director, creative director, you finalize on your. On the key image to use. And when it's. When it's commercial, when it's work in ad or commercial, there's always other factors that come into it. It's not necessarily the best, most emotional image. It's what images in the right crop. You know, whether the brand can be seen, you know, whether there's enough space for copy. And a lot of this stuff can be managed in post. Right. Through design and extensions and whatnot else. But on set, you're shooting with those criteria in mind as well. Right. So it's a collaborative approach. Everyone has an input, which makes commercial projects complicated. Right. It's not just your sense, your feel and your eye. All right, it's all of that. But I feel it's always important that you. You shoot the brief, but you always give some options on top of the brief, right? Yeah. So here, here's what I think is. Is a little bit different. And most of the time you don't ask permission. You just go ahead and shoot it and then you put it side by side and they choose. So I think, again, it comes back to that whole collaborative approach to things, which is what makes it really exciting to shoot, you know, rather than shooting small mini projects yourself. Because everyone's got an input and often the output is something that you didn't expect. And a lot of the times it's better, right? [00:31:17] Speaker C: Yeah. You go in thinking you're going to achieve something, and then with all these people and all these ideas, hopefully you end up with something completely different that's even better by the end of the project. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Within debrief, of course, within this narrow [00:31:33] Speaker A: scope, there's countless stories, just enough where it just turns out, even it turns out shit. Right. Because you've got no control on, say, color grading or how they. How they crop it. On socials and photographers and videographers talk about it all the time. You know, this is my work. But you know, what's happened after it's been through that whole process. And it's a big black box, really. It goes in and so many people have their hand in it. It comes out something completely different, you know, or the copies over somebody's eyes and the photography becomes a filler. Yeah. That's why we have cuts and photographers Cuts all the time. [00:32:17] Speaker B: Well, okay, so that's the thing. Photographers cut, like, do you do from a project. You'll edit some things just exactly the way you want them for your own portfolio. Is that allowed? [00:32:28] Speaker A: Is that. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah. How does that work? [00:32:32] Speaker A: Is it allowed? Most of the time it is allowed. I mean, at the end of the day, you. It's your image as long as you're not branding it as coke or you're. You're showing another version of what's out there commercially. 99 of what you see on my website is Eric's version of the image. Right. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:56] Speaker A: What they do with the image online or for their website is out of my control in most cases. Right. [00:33:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:05] Speaker A: So I think it's important, just to answer your question, I think it's important because whatever you show in your portfolio is what, what people see and what they'd hire you for and what, what sense that get of your aesthetic. Right. So if you're putting up work that isn't your aesthetic, that's what they'll. They'll say, ah, that's what I want. Right. So you end up starting the process of doing what you don't want or, or, or selling images that isn't your look or isn't your personality. So I believe that whatever you put online, unless you're really clearly stating it. Yeah. Or you're putting the tear sheets out with the brand and whatnot. Right. Then people know, okay, that's what's delivered to the marketplace. But everything else, I feel, should be your version of things. Yeah. [00:33:59] Speaker C: Right. That makes total sense. Like you want to. Yeah. If. Let's say, yeah, you do a shoot for Hungry Jacks. You want to put on your portfolio the three images that really resonate with the way that you like to. To work. Not the other 20 images that fit the brief, but weren't really what you [00:34:18] Speaker B: were kind of not really the work [00:34:21] Speaker C: that you're looking to do. Ideally kind of thing. But you've always got to, you got to do that stuff. [00:34:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And obviously show proof. Put that big poster of Hungry Jackson, someone eating. That's what they've chosen. It's a successful image. So. [00:34:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:40] Speaker B: So in the. This is in. You're in a commercial world that, That [00:34:46] Speaker C: I don't really understand. It's. I've done a lot of commercial work, but not, not in this level. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Not working with brands that have. Yeah. [00:34:56] Speaker C: Art departments and things. Yeah. Never anything like that for me. It's just like I'd shoot what they want. We work on it and Then I send them all the edited images and they just do what they want with those or I help them do what they want with those, but they get the edited file ready to use in their catalogs or whatever. [00:35:18] Speaker B: At my level of photography, there's always [00:35:21] Speaker C: this big discussion about whether you should or shouldn't provide RAW images or. And you know what the right thing [00:35:27] Speaker B: about that is that ever a debate in your world? Does every client request RAW images to [00:35:34] Speaker C: be included in, in their project so that they can then later on do what they want? [00:35:39] Speaker B: Or. [00:35:40] Speaker C: And how does that get navigated at your level? [00:35:44] Speaker A: Okay, I wouldn't, I wouldn't term it as level. Every client's a little bit different. Yeah, but I get your question completely. And it happens everywhere. So the clients that feel like they need control over your work, they'll ask for the RAW files. Right. And those are typically smaller firms that understandably, they want maximum utility of what they're paying for. Right. And giving them the RAW files or requesting the RAW files facilitates that. Right. If I have the RAW file sitting in my drive, I can go back to it at any time and make it as good as Eric, or I give it to Justin and he'll put his flavor on it. If it's a larger firm, which I believe has potential to use the images for much wider usage and licensing. Right. If they're going to put it on a plane or put it on a cup or put it on multiple things, then I will charge usage and licensing and I will control the RAW files. Right. I'm working for a small business, Justin, which I know is a seasonal campaign, and they'll typically never use it again, you know, past a quarter. And they won't be able to pay for usage, licensing and whatnot. I really don't care. Right. So I do give them RAW files. Right. Which they can't open anyway. So I give them high resolution files in tiff, for example, or in jpeg. [00:37:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:30] Speaker A: So the idea there is to just make sure I have that level of protection if it ever comes becomes legal. Right. I have some way of saying I have the original file, so I'll never give them the NEFs. Right. Or, okay, the actual RAW file from the camera. Yeah. [00:37:48] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:48] Speaker A: So I'll give them a extremely high resolution file which I'll give to. To a retoucher, which, which will need the fidelity of the files to, to do their work. I'll give that to them and they'll. They'll feel great because it's 100 mega megapixels. Or whatever it is, and it's massive and they'll feel good about it. And all in all, it's really the same principle. I am handing over the RAW file, but I'm also holding back the proof that it's my work. [00:38:20] Speaker B: I see. [00:38:21] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [00:38:23] Speaker B: So, so yes, you won't hand it. And I get, I think that's probably [00:38:25] Speaker C: what a lot of people, when they say, yeah, the RAW file, they talk about the, yeah, the actual NEF file or the, the C RAW or whatever or the raw. Like it's, they won't, they don't want to hand that over because they feel like they're, they're sort of relinquishing. Now my camera's not. Look at that. [00:38:41] Speaker B: Come on. [00:38:42] Speaker C: Canon. Relinquishing their, I don't know, control or copyright as a photographer to that image. Which, it's, it's not that, but it's, it's sort of a tangible way to, I guess, like you said, say that you shot this image because you're like, hey, I, I can show you. I shot this image. Here's the RAW file from the camera when I shot it. Like it's. I've got it. [00:39:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:07] Speaker C: And I'm the only one that has it. And I think, yeah, that, that does make a lot of sense. So you would, you would give them a tiff. A really, really, like a. Yeah, a very malleable file that they could work with, but not the one that comes straight out of the camera. [00:39:22] Speaker A: The other, the other method per se, without pissing anyone off by denying them their request is you just make, make your entire shoot on that day into low resolution JPEGs and keep that yourself. Because what you're sending them is not the entire entire shoot. You're sending them the best of. And although, although I hear many people saying, give me. Just dump your card, right? Dump your card and just give that to me on a hard drive that's requested a lot. But most of the time I don't get that request. Right. So it's essentially you do the work, you cut out all the bullshit and just give me the stuff that works and just be really flexible with that. They're still getting a lot of files, right? But that image, or that image with a finger in the nose or, you know, some embarrassing image somewhere, you know, part of the bts, we take that all out because they don't, they don't need to, you know, just, you know, drop drops. Your. The impression that you have as a, as a, as a photographer or someone running the set. [00:40:33] Speaker C: It's funny, it's so interesting. I get, yeah, I've had both directions from different clients on different shoots where, yeah, you'll get one who's like, we just want to see every photo. You know, we want to pick from every photo. And then I've got other clients that are like, I will do a selection from a big shoot, you know, shoot that I might have shot 3,000 images, and I'll do a selection of 300. [00:40:56] Speaker B: And they're like, can you just go [00:40:58] Speaker C: through these and find the 15 best ones? Like, they don't even want to look through the 300 that I've like painstakingly edited. [00:41:05] Speaker B: They're just like, where are the good ones? And it's like the complete opposite thought [00:41:11] Speaker C: process to the people. They want to see every single shot just in case there's one in there that I didn't pick that they like or something like that. [00:41:19] Speaker A: We're dealing with extremely wide spectrum, aren't we? People with different tastes. And another scenario would be if. If your shoot is for multiple clients, right? So same brand, multiple clients, multiple products, and you have a department that's looking at the images from a social perspective, you're looking at another one from a campaign or a corporate branding perspective. Then you have another one looking at, I don't know, point of sales imagery that goes on, you know, in the shop front. So everyone will have their different take on what they want from the image. And that's another scenario where handing them a very wide spectrum of images is very helpful for them rather than us using our one mind to filter down and they might miss out on a lot. So I'll typically give them an option, right? So a folder saying complete. A folder saying adults, kids, socials, and, and. And that pay for that service, obviously, because it's a lot of time to review. [00:42:26] Speaker C: And I was about to. I was about to ask that because I. I was talking to a client recently that was. That was sort of saying, like, it would be really great if. If I could categorize in multiple ways so by product, by specific shoot, you know, that kind of thing. Even they've got product, but then they've also got departments. It's hard to explain, but yeah, it's like I could. A single photo could slot into multiple places. And I was like, yeah, I could see how from a business point of view that would be super handy. But also that's going to take me a long time. [00:43:06] Speaker B: And so. [00:43:06] Speaker C: Okay, so that, so that's a service you charge for. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Well, any you know, as a, as a photographer, I think any time that you spend on a project should be charged for. Right. Because anytime that you're not spending on a project, you're not earning money. [00:43:21] Speaker C: Right. [00:43:22] Speaker A: So 100. 100. Now, the. Just, just on, just, just on that point, you know, there's. There's a lot of dark data. I mean, just. I think I'm safe to say, Justin, that you probably have a massive database of images sitting in hard drives. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. 10 years. 10 years as a wedding photographer, plus commercial work and, and yes. Sports stuff. [00:43:53] Speaker C: Lots of personal travel. Yep. [00:43:58] Speaker B: There's photos everywhere. [00:43:59] Speaker A: And it's the personal ones that probably take up the most space because you've had so much life experience and you've document it. Right. But. And, and the same thing for the clients. You know, they, they're so focused on the image that they want. Yeah. The rest of the shoot just gets lumped somewhere. Right. They want it. They want the safety of having it there. It's insurance, but it's not monetized. Right. So I think it's important that we translate that quite well so that you and I can bring value to them. Right. Look, you're using only three images from your shoot. There's probably so much more that you can use. Can we go back to that data and just review what's possible and what happens if we extend it over the last two years, three years? Right. And for us. Well, I speak for myself in generally, wedding photographers would have close the projects. Right. But if you go back five years and you look at it with a different eye, Right. You could come up with multiple narratives and, and you could possibly end up with different images in that portfolio. Right. [00:45:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:15] Speaker A: So there's a lot of stuff there that I think that we should be able to. To. To. To make money from and to make use for ourselves. Right. Terabytes of data just sitting right there. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's it. [00:45:29] Speaker C: I, I went through it a little bit last week. I was doing a bit of a cleanup. I've got a. I've got a messy but functioning kind of file management and archival process. And I was, I was trying to get back on top of that. [00:45:43] Speaker B: And yeah, I was just, I was seeing shoots in there that I was like, oh, I've got to, I've got to go back and look in there, [00:45:50] Speaker C: because I know there was more in there. I, you know, maybe it was a trip or something like that. I quickly whipped through it, found some images I liked, but I know there's more in There and I just haven't been through it and it's almost feel [00:45:59] Speaker B: like I, I need to dedicate a [00:46:04] Speaker C: quarterly, you know, two day period or something where you can just go deep on, on the archive and, and do that kind of work or, or something. But something scheduled in to remind me that it's like hey yeah, go back [00:46:17] Speaker B: through and, and looking at from a [00:46:19] Speaker C: client's perspective is actually a great idea. Go back through that, that client and just see what's there. What might, what, what could they still use or yeah, that's it. That's actually a repurpose [00:46:32] Speaker A: or [00:46:35] Speaker B: re imagine [00:46:37] Speaker C: for a new product. Like hey, this shoot worked really well five years ago. We should basically do a similar thing for that new product you've released. There's no point reinventing the wheel. We just, we could just kind of reimagine this thing. We already did a whole lot of [00:46:51] Speaker B: hard work on [00:46:53] Speaker A: you. Also, also reinforcing the value, right you know, of your relationship. You know, why, why, why get a different photographer when I've worked with you before? I know your stuff, you know, I, I know the processes, I know your, your eye, you know, I know the brand, I know your messaging. And if you can, if you can go through an another layer of value, then yeah, it's another sticky point right for you to stick with you as a partner, as a visual partner. [00:47:24] Speaker B: Do you find. [00:47:24] Speaker C: And I do. I'm keeping an eye on the time because if, if Greg was here he'd be like, he'd be desperate to find out how we, how you, when you picked up your first camera. And I do want to find out about that and then find out how this all evolved but. Oh, maybe we should go there now. [00:47:42] Speaker B: Just trying to think, do I want [00:47:44] Speaker C: to talk about this yet? [00:47:46] Speaker B: There's so much. Yeah, let's do it. When did you, when did you pick up your first camera? How did this happen? Because you, you were shooting. So you, you got into photography, into commercial photography not that long ago after a career change. But you said you were shooting all the way through that career, personal project work. How did that all come about? When did you get that, that first camera? [00:48:11] Speaker A: This is going to go on multiple tangents here, Justin. So you keep. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Perfect. Perfect. [00:48:21] Speaker A: My first camera can't remember for the life of me what I know. It was a Fujifilm and it was one of those that maybe I can, Most cameras these days are shaped that way, right? This one was that way. It's a fine picks something or other and you held it like this Right. It was awesome. And I think, I think mom and dad gave it to me or something. Or they bought it for themselves. Never used it. I took it and I was just shooting everything. I just loved the idea of making pictures, but never had the idea occurred to me that photography was such a deep process. Right. So I was just shooting everything because it was something for me to do. Could be because of my ADHD and my need to fidget and to have something in my hand. Who knows? Right. So sports events, family events, anything that, that I could make a subject on, I'll shoot then when I. Yes, yes. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Was it, was it this one? [00:49:27] Speaker A: No, no, no, it wasn't that one. It wasn't that one. But it, it, it looks something like that. It definitely looked like, okay, maybe, maybe there, that one that said Dan Cuny 4700. Yeah, that looks like it. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Wow. [00:49:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Digital fine picks 4700 zoom [00:49:53] Speaker A: about that big. My. But if you have a pen, it's probably half the size of a pen. That was the SD card at the time. [00:50:02] Speaker B: Wow. [00:50:03] Speaker A: I came from film, right. So that was my first digital, I think my, my first film was a Nikon and I don't even know what it is now. D, the, I can't remember. 30, 30 or 50, something like that. [00:50:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:23] Speaker A: And, and some dark room stuff which is way, way back in my life. So during, during corporate, you know, I, I, I shot on a yearly basis and I, I traveled to shoot. Right. And 2013, that's when I mentioned to you earlier. That's when I, I, I had that massive experience and started to, to shoot commercially. And I was very lucky, very, very lucky to have met a man that was honest with me and he said, you're going nowhere in your career as a photographer, you know, with the images that you have. Right. [00:51:01] Speaker B: What, what did he mean, what did he mean by that? [00:51:04] Speaker A: He meant that as a commercial photographer, you'll fail almost immediately if you go out to market with your current portfolio, let's put it that way. And okay, I wasn't as good as my friends and family said I was as well. So don't listen to your family and friends unless they're exactly in the same space. Wow. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Okay, well, so let's back up a tiny bit. So you were, you had this amazing life changing experience. At that point you were still employed in your career. And, and, and at that point point, had you been building up a portfolio of commercial work already or did you [00:51:46] Speaker C: come away from that experience and go, okay, I'm going to start trying this commercial photography thing while still working. [00:51:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it was. So I had not built up a portfolio. It was all based around travel and art and the idea was to shoot documentary and stories and that kind of thing. Once I came out, I realized that I couldn't make money from it and within a year all my savings would be gone and that kind of thing. So I started trying to get into commercial work and that's when I met Jeff, who was very clear to me about my portfolio. I did not piggyback my photography with my commercial with my corporate job. You know, it was cold turkey. Yeah. Which is a. I think it's something that I will tell my son never to do the transition rather than to go cold turkey because it was very challenging. Very. Yeah, really, really hard because you have a lot of time to. To self criticize. Right. You have a lot of time to, to play with your head. Yeah. But again, I had a lot of time to work on what I needed to work at. So I spent, I spent a year and a half to two years working with, with my mentor and he obviously guided me and set the standard and taught me the skills that I needed to, to kick off properly, you know, rather than to be fooled by my own self and my own self worth on what would work and what wouldn't. Yeah. [00:53:22] Speaker B: How did you find your mentor? [00:53:24] Speaker A: Ah, you know what? Very, very lucky. All right. So that he had an exhibition. His name's Jeff on and he's, he's based in Singapore. Very, very established photographer. He had an exhibit with Leica and I was interested so I went to, went to see it and after the show said hello and we got him quite well, had a coffee and that's how it started. I think maybe in the next month I was, I was know, helping him out in his studio and assisting and you know, just working alongside him all the time and absorbing whatever I could. [00:53:59] Speaker B: And so were you based in Singapore [00:54:02] Speaker C: at that time or traveling or you were based there? [00:54:05] Speaker A: Yeah, based in Singapore. So I was working with Telstra to begin with. Right. Bids and marketing, commercial contracts and whatnot. And I think I moved there 2001. Yeah, yeah, 2002. [00:54:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:27] Speaker B: And you were still there in 2013, [00:54:29] Speaker C: 14 when this sort of transition was happening. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Correct, correct, yeah. But during my time in Singapore I was traveling a lot. Like a lot between Thailand, Singapore, which is where I worked, between Thailand and Singapore, other parts of APEC and obviously come back. I was in Australia four times a year at the time. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of time on the plane. Yeah. [00:54:52] Speaker B: Do you think. Do you think it's. Did you learn more about working with corporate. Corporate clients. Grab that if you need to. Did you learn more about working with corporate clients from your mentor or from your career? [00:55:17] Speaker A: Okay. Specifically corporate clients. My own career, yeah. Because. Because Jeff was a advertising photographer. Right. So he was a different league. Basically. He was shooting global campaigns for. For fitness, cars, lifestyle, fashion, you know, that kind of stuff. And it was always big. Right. My work is, I'd say at a corporate, national level. At most. Yeah. National region. So to answer your question, that. That was more. So my path in my photography work as it evolved, Right. When I moved back, the idea was to pick a certain niche, right. To focus on, and that niche was sports and fitness and lifestyle, you know, which is why you look at my highlights page, you'll see it's. It's a lot of fitness work and it's because I like shooting beautiful people. Healthy, nice colored skin. [00:56:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Nice moving. Yeah, yeah. So. So that was the pick. But the work that I received from that portfolio was at most 20. Yeah. Which is quite odd. Right. So people look at the work and say, okay, if he can shoot people that move, then he can shoot people that don't move quite well. I can see some colors here, which I like. You know, he can do stuff, you know, on location and he can manage the light there. So therefore he can do it for, you know, for a guy in a suit, for example. Right. So I think that's the idea. It wasn't that, oh, I like the way he shoots fitness. I'm going to get him to shoot some fitness work. So fitness clients are a much smaller part of the portfolio than. Than my highlights are. [00:57:12] Speaker B: Real interesting because. Yeah, it certainly comes across. [00:57:16] Speaker C: Yeah. From your website and what you put out that. That is a pretty big chunk of what you do. But obviously, yeah, I mean, I, I have a bit of exposure to the, to the fitness world and it's not. There's not as much money in that world as there is probably in other industries, I would say. I'm not sure what it's like at, you know, the sort of the national level and things like that, but yeah, it's certainly. Yeah, it's probably not as. It's not as many campaigns and things like that coming out of just general fitness as there is out of, I don't know, Telstra. [00:57:59] Speaker A: Don't you think that's across the industry? So, I mean, a lot of it's going, you know, UGC type work or influencer work. Well, it was first influencer and then that lost a little bit of momentum because of credibility and then more user generated marketing and then now it's moving into that whole AI phase of, and doing it yourself. So I feel like it's not only fitness, I think it's any, any, any, any industry. All right, so we're, we're just adjusting to that as best we can. Yeah. [00:58:33] Speaker B: Do you think it's, do you think it's harder now to make a living with this style of work than it was in, when you started in, in 2013? [00:58:44] Speaker C: 14. I don't mean like if you, if you transplanted yourself with your skills now back then, would it be easier or [00:58:53] Speaker B: the same or harder? Is it just, is it just. [00:58:56] Speaker C: Are we all in a const. [00:58:57] Speaker B: You know, everyone always seems like, you [00:58:59] Speaker C: know, now with AI, it's going to [00:59:00] Speaker B: be horrible or whatever. But is this, is this just constant [00:59:04] Speaker C: with photography there's always a new challenge to, to kind of battle against, to maintain, I guess, a foothold in the industry and provide value. [00:59:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Just saying. I love the way you put it, man. It's just a constant change and that's, that's what always happens, right? Whatever, whatever time period you're in, you're always going to be faced with some sort of either technological or circumstantial challenge. If I think back on, on some of the images that I, that stick in my head always, right. A lot of it comes from the classic photographers shooting a wall or shooting culture, right. Steve McCurry is one of them, right. If we go back to his time, the challenge was getting there, right? The challenge was getting access, right. But today I could, you know, if, if, if I put money aside, I could make a phone call and I'm in India tomorrow, right? Yeah, yeah. The war photographers, they had to, they had to somehow find themselves on that, of that tank or that barge or that platoon. And then they had to somehow find themselves with, you know, that, that crew doing, doing the rounds and then they had to survive. Yeah. And then they had to, to set the manual camera and pick the right lens and all of that at the same time. And then they had to find a way to get the film out of the country without being damaged. And then it ended up on an editor's desk and these guys go through. But today it's shoot tethered live, right to the, to the, to the AFP or whatever it is, and it's on socials within three minutes, right? So yeah, the challenges are so different, right? In different timings of when you started your photography, I am certainly finding it an adjustment. Right. Just in terms of the market size, perception of how images can be made. Right. This AI thing is big, right? And it's a constant part of conversation. Can we do this during the. Using AI faster, better? Yeah. Or more conveniently? And the answer is probably yes. But the, the perception is that it's a one button press, but it's not. Right. So if you talk to the AI experts, it's a whole process. It's a, it's, it's another path of getting to the same place. Right. So I often say to my clients that AI is simply another photographer. So if you go to Justin, you go to Eric and you go to AI, you get the same image but with a different style, with a different color, with a different look, but you could still have the same messaging. So it still comes back to the question, what do you want to experience? Do you want to experience sitting in a room, looking at a screen, creating this image, or do you want to go out and make it, you know, and, and what that experience looks like feels like? So circling back, just, just closing off, circling back to your question on, on, on, on how challenging it is and, and just the timing of where we are in the, in the evolution of photography, I think every, every stage has its challenges and the Q and I now generation, right, have experienced a lot more. So the changes are a lot quicker, so the cycles are a lot quicker. Right. So unfortunately, or fortunately, that's, that's what we have to deal with. But once we find a solution and the market settles, I think there'll be, there'll be another golden age where we get to really sit down and just utilize the tools and make the best we can without any friction between what we have in here and what we output. [01:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. So you almost look at it like [01:03:16] Speaker C: there's sort of these growing pains and then it stabilizes for a bit and you can just, you can just kind of make the most of the technology that's available that time. And then, and then something else will come along and we'll have some growing pains again and have to figure out. And then, and then it'll stabilize. It's kind of. Rather than it being this. I don't know, I guess it feels like sometimes it can feel like we've just gone through this increasing level of difficulty game of what it's like to try and be a professional photographer. And, and if you look back or I know when I started, I used to talk to photographers that sort of had studios in the film era and then they transitioned to digital. And their message for me, when I started, because I started at a similar time, I think it was around 2013, 2014, when I, when I quit to go full time, so very similar time. And the message I was getting was, you can't make money out of photography anymore. Don't do it to every, every man his dog's got a camera. The golden days are over. Was, was the message I got from professional photographers that were sort of to. Closer to the end of their career than the start kind of thing. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. This might sound harsh, but I think we really have to choose what we listen to and, and who we, who we spend time with. Yeah, yeah. Just rewinding back to earlier part of a conversation about photography being a process. Right. So it's, it's not only the camera and how you shoot, but it's also the relationships you have. Right. And, and the business you're trying to build around it. The photography hasn't changed. And I don't think the photography will change. Right. It's, you know, whether you use your phone or your, your Nikon or medium format or video camera, you're just making. Right. And like art, you know, it's, it's what people connect with, Right? [01:05:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:26] Speaker A: And that connections not only with the, with the image, it's also in person. Right. It's the business relationship, the trust. Yeah. The fact that you might come up with something new and exciting because of how you see things. Right. So. And it reminds me of that, that lady I met, that sweeper, right. If, if I can't communicate with her, she, she's illiterate. She couldn't read. I couldn't use Google Translate, you know, she could understand me. But the image connects and the, that energy between the two people was, was, was, was warm enough for us to have an experience. Yeah. So if we can translate that to our clients, Right. Which is not only the image that we get delivered, but that relationship and the experience that they have. One more tangent, one more time. So, Jeff, I remember sitting in with him once, reviewing my images, and I said to him, I challenged him, I said, you know, if my images are. So why are clients working with me? You know, why are you saying. Why are you saying that? You know, it, you know, I'm not going to make it. Because you've got to know, Eric, that people are working with you probably because they like working with you, not because of your Images. [01:06:47] Speaker B: That's like. That's like the ultimate compliment. Not compliment, kind of. [01:06:54] Speaker A: Gosh. So that. That's cemented. Right? So. So the idea is to have both. [01:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, ideally. [01:07:01] Speaker A: But that's stuck. That stuff was with me, so. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Wow. [01:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [01:07:09] Speaker A: Sometimes you don't win work, right? Yeah, sometimes you don't win work. You look at it and you go, hang on their works. You know, their campaigns are not that great, or, you know, that. That series for that couple of years, you know, I think we can. I think we can push this a little bit more. But when you get in there, they love your work. They love everything that you do. They like you, but they just don't. They just don't switch because that. That relationship's too strong. Right? [01:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:36] Speaker A: And I think that's great for whoever's working with them, that they've done a great job. [01:07:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's. [01:07:45] Speaker B: It's exactly. It's you. You've really got to have a compelling [01:07:50] Speaker C: reason for someone to. To make a switch like that if they're. If they're comfortable working with someone already. Yeah, The. The only two clients that I still shoot for now because I've sort of put most of my attention into Lucky Straps and the podcast. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Actually. What are we at? [01:08:06] Speaker C: A minute, an hour and eight minutes? I should do a thing. [01:08:10] Speaker B: This is the Camera Live podcast. We go live twice a week. And if you're not subscribed, please subscribe. You can join us in the live chat when we go live or listen back later. We're on Spotify, Apple podcasts, all that stuff. We've had tons of photographers on, probably 80 great interviews with photographers that you can dig back through the archive and [01:08:27] Speaker C: listen to people like who. [01:08:30] Speaker B: Who have we had on Jeff Cable? Shot the Olympics eight, nine times. We've had on Art Wolf recently. He was amazing. [01:08:38] Speaker C: I don't know lots. They're not even coming to my mind. [01:08:40] Speaker B: Anyway, go and do that. And then the other thing is, it's brought to you by Lucky Straps, which is. Which is us. We make amazing leather camera straps. Super comfortable, quick release, leave nothing on the camera, no dongles. And you can check them [email protected] you [01:08:55] Speaker C: won't find a more comfortable camera strap. [01:08:57] Speaker B: And why is that? It's because they're made by photographers. We actually use them all the time. [01:09:02] Speaker C: So they're not just made to look cool in camera stores or on the Internet. They're made to be good while you're out shooting. [01:09:08] Speaker B: Okay. [01:09:09] Speaker C: Ads over [01:09:11] Speaker B: what's Gonna say, very smooth. I've got two. Only got two clients that I really still work with now. And I think both of them, I'm sure my images are okay, but. But yeah, both of them are like, they don't need to brief me. They don't need to, you know, it's easy. [01:09:30] Speaker C: They're just like, hey, we need to do a shoot for this. And they know that I'll figure out what we need to do and if I don't know, I'll ask questions. But they don't. They don't need to, like, spend all this of their time and their energy that they're short on trying to make sure that the photographer is going to know what they want. And I think that's, that's like you say, it can be hard. If someone else was trying to get their foot in the door with either of these clients, I think they'd have a tough time because the client would be like, oh, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah, your Images might be 10% better, but how long is it going to take me to make sure that you're going to do the job that we want or whatever so that it can go both ways? It can be bad if you're trying to get in the door with. With someone, but it can be good if you've, if you've done hard work to maintain a client relationship and you're doing great work. Yeah, they'll probably stick with you. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's tremendous value in that. And, and business. Business consultants will look at that as somewhat of a system that's in place. And it's an emotional system. Right. It's there, it's constantly moving, reduces risk for them. Yeah. So it's definitely a value. And when photographers look at that as part of their value add and part of their process and system and what they can bring to the client, I think they're building on their career more than simply their ability to make the picture. Right. [01:11:00] Speaker C: Yes. [01:11:01] Speaker A: So that helps with preserving our careers in times like this because it, you know, we're easily replaceable when it comes to just taking the picture. Right? [01:11:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's everything that goes together with it. [01:11:23] Speaker B: Are your, are your shoots? I'm sure there's a big variety. [01:11:27] Speaker C: I'd love to hear a bit of a, I guess a rough idea of [01:11:32] Speaker B: what shoots can look like that you do. Is it ever just you? Is it. [01:11:38] Speaker C: What, what. [01:11:39] Speaker B: How big could the team be on some of the shoots that you do? And, and what are those Productions look [01:11:44] Speaker A: like, okay, smaller the better for me. But I hardly ever walk alone because I overcompensate on gear. I always want to have stuff available if I. In case I need it for that one shot. Right. [01:12:01] Speaker B: Well, I saw a post. I saw a post the other day that you. Whenever it was on your Instagram, I think, or somewhere about you, thought it was going to be a drone shot. And it turned out being a water housing shot or something like that. That for this shot and the fact [01:12:18] Speaker C: that you had a housing ready to go, it just worked out to be a good, you know, a good change. [01:12:25] Speaker B: Do you. Is that. So you overpack? You, like, bring everything. Is that how you always roll with these shoots? [01:12:33] Speaker A: Most of the time I was just brought up that way in terms of shooting. Right. So, yeah. Going back to. To my mentor, every time I was with him, it was always preparing for anything. Yeah. On the shoot that you can imagine. And then hopefully you don't have to use it, but it's there. So in this case, we were going to be at the water anyway. But the shot that I was looking for was an overhead shot of. Of a swimmer in the water, but it was gusting. It was gusting like crazy. We couldn't even haul our stuff together. So the drone shot was just out of the. No, it wasn't an option. Right. So, yeah, so I had, I had that there anyway. But, you know, if I was going inland, I wouldn't be bringing my. My casing. Give you a corporate example, though, for a standard headshot session that I would have. Right. I have a little car, so I'll have. I use two lights, generally. Two lights. But I. I bring four lights just in case two lights don't work. I'll bring four tubes, Right. Just in case I need to create a little bit of backlight. But more importantly, if I see a. If I see a shot outside of the set that we've built, I'd love to take it. Right. But setting up the strobes again wouldn't be an option. So if I have. If I have tubes which I can just move around with my assistant, then I can. I can very likely make the shot. Right. So I think the humanity group. I think it's one of the projects on my. On. On my. On on my website, there were several shots in the environment of the office. Right. Which I thought would be. Would be useful to. To have in the portfolio for them to deliver. So when we moved around, it was. It was really tubes. Yeah, more tubes than it is. [01:14:36] Speaker B: So would this, Would this be one of those tube shots or a strobe shot? [01:14:40] Speaker A: If you come out, I'll show you exactly the one I'm thinking about. You go a little bit further down. Yeah, that lady leaning at her office. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So she, that was her team in the background. And we just wanted to show her in the context of her team and what they do. Right. So, so we had, I think we had five minutes in between the shots with the next CEO and we said, okay, let's move over here and let's see what we can do this. So there was no, there was no strobes. It was really just tubes. [01:15:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:15:16] Speaker B: And, and for those listening that, like tube light, we, how, how big are we talking? We're talking continuous. The, the, the, the new style of continuous LED tube lights that come from. [01:15:29] Speaker C: What are the brands like? [01:15:30] Speaker B: Is it Pavo Nan Light, Godox do. Some. [01:15:34] Speaker C: Tons of people are doing them now. [01:15:36] Speaker B: Are yours really big ones, really long? [01:15:39] Speaker A: They're two sizes. There's one, I think one and a half foot or something like that. And then there's another one that's three. Yeah, I use the three. Four. [01:15:47] Speaker B: Okay. [01:15:48] Speaker A: Simply because you can, you can have a much longer reach with a, with a three foot. Yeah, yeah. So I have, I have, I have six of those always in my bag. Right. Just in case we need to, to put them anyway. [01:16:02] Speaker B: Okay. [01:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:03] Speaker B: What, what strobes are you using? [01:16:06] Speaker A: Profoto B1S. [01:16:08] Speaker B: Oh, fancy. [01:16:09] Speaker A: So I've, I've used them for a long time and the truth is, if I, if I were to replace any of those lights, I might not, I might not be buying pro photos today. They're just really expensive, you know, and, and to me, I can't tell the difference whether it's a, a Godox or a Profoto. Right. I know many photographers that say that they can. Right. But because I can't and I'm, I'm massaging the image so much in post anyway, as long as it's lit, you know, I'm okay with it. Now I'd say though, that many, many shoots are, need to be perfect out of the camera, right. And for shoots like those, consistency and, and color are very, very important. So cosmetic shoots, for example, right before and after. Right. So you need the portion and the after shoot. And if your light's just a little bit off, everything shifts. Right. So for those shoots, you really need to invest in, in super high quality lights. Right. If I'm running around on the beach, you know, shooting hard light. Right. Which Is a mix. Yeah, I, I don't, I don't see a real need. So it has its place, you know. Yeah. 20. 2012 to be. I have not even replaced a single bulb. [01:17:46] Speaker C: Wow. [01:17:47] Speaker A: Wow. [01:17:48] Speaker B: So they've, they've more than paid for themselves then. That's, that's epic. [01:17:53] Speaker A: And I've dropped them several times. [01:17:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that does happen. [01:17:57] Speaker C: Yeah. I've. I've smashed a few Godox AD200s, unfortunately. But that's more from just me not, not putting enough sandbags on the light stand than anything else. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Okay, so. And then are you, are you shooting with your nickons for all shoots or do you use a range. Do you use medium format as well? [01:18:19] Speaker A: 95% Nikons? Yeah. Medium format is only when I need it to be on a hoarding. Right. They're not use the Fujifilm. Yeah. But these days I'm finding it less and less needed to go high res. You know, it's really. Unless you need to composite the files in, in a, in a, in a way that needs you to really overlay to create a really massive hoarding. The last job that I pitched for, I didn't win. It required a hoarding that was 40. 40 meters long. Right. For an airport. So that was a, the only real scenario where we had to do a, a panorama with 100 megapixel camera, you know, So I just, I just, I just rent those if I need to. Yeah, but other than. Yeah, yeah. 48 megapixels. More than enough. Yeah. Yep. [01:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Nice. [01:19:18] Speaker C: So you just rent them when you need them. Otherwise just stick with the kit you've got and. [01:19:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:24] Speaker B: All right, since we're, since we're talking gear already, quickly, quickly, give me a rundown of. [01:19:28] Speaker C: Of lenses. [01:19:29] Speaker B: What, what, what, what's in this giant [01:19:31] Speaker C: bag or in this cart that you. [01:19:33] Speaker B: That you take to shoot? [01:19:35] Speaker A: Two. Two sets. Yeah. One is my manual set, so Voigtlander 15, 40 and 75 Voidlanders. So it's native to. To my Z8. Yeah. And Nikon Zeds at 20, 35, 50 and 85. And then I have older set of lenses which I can't get rid of because I just love them so much. Which is the 105. [01:20:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:20:05] Speaker A: F lens. Yeah. [01:20:07] Speaker C: The 1.4. [01:20:09] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [01:20:10] Speaker C: How good is that thing? [01:20:12] Speaker A: So sweet. Sweet. And a 35 millimeter as well. F lens. [01:20:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:20:18] Speaker A: So that's, that's my series, so I don't use zoom lenses. So it's a little bit more challenging for me to get different compositions. I have to Move my feet. But I'm, I have the 7200 on my list. Yeah. Which I use for a, a sports shoot last year. Yeah. I borrowed that from Nikon to test out, and it was, it was super sweet. So I might, I might consider that as my only zoom lens. [01:20:50] Speaker B: Jim, who, who comes on this podcast regularly, also my. What was. [01:20:55] Speaker C: When we shot weddings, it was Justin and Jim photography. So we worked side by side shooting weddings for like a decade. He shoots Nikon still, and he recently bought the 7200Z 2.8. [01:21:09] Speaker B: And he bought it and then had to have surgery. [01:21:14] Speaker C: And it was still sitting in the box unopened when they released the 7202.8 Z2 lens. [01:21:22] Speaker B: And he was like, He hadn't, he hadn't even taken a photo with it yet. [01:21:31] Speaker C: When the new one come out, I was like, oh, [01:21:35] Speaker B: but that new one does look nice. I think it's, I think it's a [01:21:38] Speaker C: lot lighter, which is pretty cool. [01:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Well, you know, the same thing happened with me for my Mac studio. Yeah. I bought it. I, I, it's one of those things you go, I need one. I'll go, go buy it. Right. And next month, the, the M2 came out all right. [01:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You can't. It's too late. You just got to move on. [01:22:02] Speaker C: But. [01:22:02] Speaker B: Oh, it sucks. It sucks. Would you say you're, you're a gear person or, or not a gear person or somewhere? [01:22:12] Speaker A: New gear? [01:22:14] Speaker C: Yes. [01:22:14] Speaker A: I love new gear. 90 of the time I want new gear, though. I, I make sure that there's a lot of time between when I want it and when I actually buy it. And I hope, I just hope it goes away. Right. Or I get too busy and get distracted and just goes away. And I don't have to buy it. But I've done pretty well, I'd say, in terms of keeping things limited. The last thing, last thing I want is to be paralyzed with choice when I, when I have to pack. Right. [01:22:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:22:48] Speaker A: So I try and keep my, my packing list as I take everything I have right. And make sure that everything I have is minimal. Yeah. So everything I described to you, I'll just put aside the manual lenses for commercial work. You know, I'll put a certain manual lenses and I'll just go out and shoot that with, with my primes. Unless I'm doing some video work pieces to camera and whatnot. Then I'll bring the manual lenses because that way I don't have to switch. Right. I just have lenses that kind of look the same, but everything else, lighting, Digitech stuff, power. Yeah, all, all of that changes and evolves, especially the laptop. The laptop needs to be upgraded every so often. The wireless tether needs to be upgraded as, as I go the, the A1 lights. I also use these to, to just complement and fill. Yeah. [01:23:51] Speaker C: Yes. [01:23:52] Speaker A: Just not to say a replacement, but just another, another source to the, to the tubes. Yeah, that's it. Really. Yeah. So I have small lights, tube lights and strobes. [01:24:08] Speaker B: Yeah, very nice. Do you ever get tempted by, have you ever been tempted by other camera brands? [01:24:18] Speaker A: Oh, I have a story for this one. 100 100. Look, I, I like Nikon because it just somehow. Muscle memory, right? It's, it's stuck with me for that long and their tech has always kept up with everything, so. Love it. But the guys, Fujifilm, they are such wonderful people. Wonderful, wonderful. [01:24:45] Speaker B: Well, I, I actually think it was [01:24:47] Speaker C: originally Neil from Fujifilm that, that gave us your name. [01:24:51] Speaker B: So. [01:24:52] Speaker C: Thanks Neil. [01:24:54] Speaker A: And I wanted a smaller form factor and, and because the, the sense is smaller, everything else just shrinks a little bit more. Right. That way I don't have to carry the weight and whatnot. So I tried, I tried most of this stuff. Right. I think the H series was the one that had a higher resolution sensor on it and it also shot really quickly. Right. So it all went well. I did test shoots with it and it was just beautiful. I think the ballerina shoot was, was, was a Fujifilm test. Right. I did a shoot in the studio with that. So it worked well with the strobes, it worked well with continuous light. Everything, everything just fit. But somehow the, just the, the shape and form didn't quite feel comfortable and I couldn't get over it. Yeah. [01:25:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:25:45] Speaker A: So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't manage to, to make that transition. [01:25:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:50] Speaker A: So with, with the Z8s again. Yeah. [01:25:54] Speaker B: And the, and the GFX stuff would [01:25:56] Speaker C: never tempt you enough to kind of just switch to that, you know, so, [01:26:00] Speaker B: you know, go full time medium format gfx. [01:26:05] Speaker A: Well, the, the, the medium format need for me wasn't, wasn't high. [01:26:11] Speaker C: Right. [01:26:11] Speaker A: I didn't need that level of files. Now you have to, you have to also know that once you go medium format, everything down the line of your workflow kind of changes. Right. Those hard drives won't be useful anymore. You need SSDs and you need the best SSDs you need. You need to upgrade your processors, you need to, to upgrade your, everything to be able to Handle those files. A composite for me would be a 1.2 gig file on Photoshop. Right. If I, if I used the 100 megapixels as a, as a source, it'll be massive. Right. So I wouldn't be able to handle it, you know, with my background. But I loved it. I took it out as well. I took the, what was the small one? The Rangefinder style, the X100 version of. Yeah. [01:27:06] Speaker C: GFX100RF. [01:27:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah. Really loved it. Yeah. I love the idea. You could crop around in it. Yeah. So I think, I think Fujifilm has done an extremely good job to create an emotional ecosystem around their products. Right. It's, you're really buying into a, a community. Yeah. Which, which is really attractive for me. Really, really attractive. [01:27:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:27:39] Speaker B: Plus making great products that fill gaps. [01:27:43] Speaker C: As in you've got an amazing range of crop sensor bodies and lenses and then, and then a great range of affordable medium format bodies and lenses that kind of sit on either side of where all the other full frame camera brands kind of duke it out. Yeah, you've got Sony, Canon and Nikon all kind of fighting over the, the big part of the market and then Fuji are just kind of at either end being like, hey, you know, you [01:28:12] Speaker B: want to go a little lighter and, and a little more feel a little [01:28:16] Speaker C: bit more connected to your camera and [01:28:18] Speaker B: a little bit more manual feeling controls. We're over here. [01:28:21] Speaker C: And then hey, you want, you want [01:28:22] Speaker B: a bit more resolution and that medium format style. We're over here. It's just, yeah, it worked out very well. I'd love to know if that was all planned out, you know, years in advance or is it just kind of [01:28:33] Speaker C: evolved for them and they just sort of went with what worked. It's, yeah, it's very interesting. [01:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it'll be good to ask them that question. But you know, I, I, I feel that, you know, it was definitely all planned. I mean it was so smooth, you know, introduction of cameras, decisions to stay with sensor sizes, the launch of Fujifilm House, house of that experiential element of what they do. What was that, that big event that they do to draw cameras and bring partners in. [01:29:10] Speaker B: So they do in Melbourne soon. [01:29:13] Speaker C: Yeah, it's called [01:29:16] Speaker B: Creator Summit. It's coming up on May 9th. For anyone in Melbourne, I'm pretty sure it's May 9th. [01:29:25] Speaker C: I won't, I'll unfortunately be in another country, but I think Greg's going, so [01:29:31] Speaker B: get down to the Creator Summit and [01:29:33] Speaker C: play around with some Fujifilm cameras and yeah, like you say they bring in partners and other brands and all sorts of stuff and put on a big, a big event. [01:29:39] Speaker B: It was in Sydney last year and [01:29:41] Speaker C: then Melbourne this year. [01:29:44] Speaker A: Well, and. Oh yeah, just, just on that, on that comment you made about catering for the different sorts. Capture one was there, right. As a, as an exhibit showing how to use the cameras professionally and that the software can keep up with, you know, the, the megapixels on the camera and whatnot. Right. So I think it was a really well rounded event and, and, and it's all part of the plan, so I think they've done really well. Yeah, really, really well. Really good to watch them from, from the outside, you know. Yeah. [01:30:17] Speaker C: To see it, to see it just keep growing and, and there's so much passion around that brand. [01:30:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely different. Fuji shooters are different and Greg is one of them. Bruce Moyles. In the chat, Bruce says, this was [01:30:32] Speaker C: from a while ago. Sorry, I've been, I've been busy yapping. [01:30:35] Speaker B: Bruce Moore says, morning everyone. [01:30:37] Speaker C: I found a wild Greg yesterday in Launceston. Yeah, that's right. [01:30:40] Speaker B: Greg is in Launceston. [01:30:41] Speaker C: Bruce has stolen him. [01:30:42] Speaker B: Send him back. Bruce. [01:30:44] Speaker C: I'm having technical difficulties on the podcast without him. [01:30:48] Speaker B: Who else was here? Nev Clark says if I wasn't shooting GFX, I would go nick on Z8. Medium form format isn't easy. Tricky file sizes, new back, new MacBook. Yep. There is a trade off. [01:31:01] Speaker C: I love GFX, but it's not for everyone. Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's, it's so tempting, but there's, there's definitely downsides with those big files. [01:31:12] Speaker A: A really good friend of mine, Leslie, he shoots, he shoots gfx. And I've, I've played with it many, many a time. I've even borrowed it off with you film to do several projects on it. And the files are fantastic. Right. If I, if I didn't have to do so much post production on my images, it'll be, it'll be wonderful to have, but you know, it just puts a lot of pressure on the system. [01:31:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. On the whole, the whole rest of the chain. I do want to ask you about your editing too in a second, but [01:31:45] Speaker B: Bruce has a question. Are you getting asked by your clients to do video? [01:31:50] Speaker A: All the time, Bruce. All the time. I've decided though, to, to make sure that I use others to help me with video. So the, the, the network is a very close network. When I say close, I don't mean the opposite of open, but close to me, close network of people I can really trust to know how to do the videos correctly. So I know, I know specialist in documentary narrative. I know video guys that really do fitness and movement really well. You know, I know video that understand dance. Yeah. For example, or fashion or socials. Right. So they're all, I think, very, very different in terms of how they, they create the video. So I'll then act as a, as a producer or a, the creative which forms the narrative and puts the storyline together. Right. [01:32:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:32:48] Speaker A: So on the corporate context, we go a little bit more narrow. The corporate clients will ask for stuff like a piece to camera, a video business card or a testimonial. And for that stuff, it's easy enough for me to do. I've got all the gear mics, the lights and whatnot. But I still don't because I feel that the questioning and that relationship needs to be leveraged so that it looks good on video. The biggest challenge for me is to get people comfortable when they're actually talking and behaving in front of the camera. So I'd like to have someone dedicated to that and everybody else just managed the gear tech and, and do what they do well. [01:33:36] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:33:37] Speaker C: Okay. [01:33:38] Speaker A: That's how I approach it because I'll say I'll be pretty uncomfortable in a client environment shooting video. Yeah, yeah. [01:33:50] Speaker B: Is that, do you think that's just because you're sort of, you're doing work at a certain standard for photography and you feel like your video work wouldn't [01:34:03] Speaker C: be at the same standard yet. So you don't want to mismatch those [01:34:08] Speaker B: levels of output, so to speak. So it's like you don't want to, you want to make sure you don't want to. Yeah, I guess be presenting a different [01:34:16] Speaker C: level of output to the same client from the same business just because it's video versus photo. [01:34:22] Speaker B: Is that why? [01:34:26] Speaker A: 100%, Jocelyn. I think both needs to be aligned, which is why that the, the people that I've worked with in the past, I know exactly where their standards are. And I have people around me that are specialized in video editing, for example, you know, so again, I know, I know what they can do. So a lot can happen in post as, as all the video guys know out there that transitions can cover a lot of mistakes and color grades and whatnot. So if I can get away with it, I still might not because I, I, I really value a set that's relaxed and comfortable because to me, that's a Big ingredient to, to making good output. [01:35:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:16] Speaker A: And if I'm emanating a energy that's under pressure or you know, I don't have the right contingencies for my gear, then I won't, I won't be, I won't be that guy that you're comfortable with right now. The other part of it is as we talked about earlier, a lot of the shoots are really, really tight, right. Even to the point where they're laid, right. You're shooting a, a portrait on, on this side of the, of the set and on the other you're doing an interview. Right. And whilst I'm shooting lifestyle work style images, there's a video rolling set rolling somewhere else. So all of that needs to happen in a tight time frame because that's all you're given, right. So it becomes a production element for you to be able to actually deliver any of those shots. So that ZOG shoot, yeah the, the ladies from the uk, right, they were running underwater camera, underwater stills. Above, above stills and socials all at the same time. Right. So multiple things going on at once. So that's another reason why. Yeah, I wouldn't shoot a lot of the work that, that I've been hired for. I wouldn't shoot motion and stills at the same time. [01:36:44] Speaker C: Yeah, makes total sense. [01:36:48] Speaker B: Just quickly. Yeah. Bruce says good plan on asking others. Split focus. [01:36:52] Speaker C: Sucks for everyone in the end. Yeah, good call. [01:36:54] Speaker B: And he, he, Bruce says I used [01:36:57] Speaker C: the Fujifilm a turn of 55 on the weekend. Monster camera. Yeah, that would. That, that sounds nuts. Are you gonna buy one, Bruce? You're gonna buy one? Go on and then come on here and tell us about it. [01:37:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. Like a lot of the work that I do is hybrid now, but it's [01:37:18] Speaker C: very, it is very distracting to try and do both. [01:37:23] Speaker B: I like that. I can do it. [01:37:25] Speaker C: It's very useful for the clients that I've got. [01:37:28] Speaker B: But it is hard switch. [01:37:30] Speaker C: You can create better work doing one or the other for sure. Trying to do both is, is very, it's two slightly different mindsets. The way I use the cam, I end up taking phot when I'm shooting hybrid. I end up taking photos using the [01:37:45] Speaker B: rear screen rather than the viewfinder. [01:37:50] Speaker C: Just because once you're in that habit for shooting video it switching. But yeah, anyway, so I end up taking different kinds of photos. It's. Yeah, it's interesting. [01:38:00] Speaker A: Well there's the other perspective and this is obviously for me only. Right. What I see though in the marketplace is many photographers and Motion guys, they manage to find that overlap Right. Where they can do both. And if you're successful at doing that, I think the advantage to the client is. Is immense because, you know, you. You have immediately that. That visual bind between your motion work and your video, your motion work and your stills work. And, and there's no room for. For that to, To. To split off from the messaging or the brand or the color so it becomes one cohesive library. Right. Many, many guys do that. Many successful guys do that. Right. And, and they're very skilled at doing it. Right. It's a cohesive campaign. Right. You do emotion and it's great for business. Right. You're doing both double, maybe triple your revenues. Right. So you're behind. So these guys will be hanging onto the camera. Yeah. But they've got their teams around them to handle the rest of the. Right. So I think the structure holds them up to allow them to do that. But of course, they have to be skill first. The Australian photograph guy, do you know Tim Mark Jones? Do you know of him? [01:39:31] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. [01:39:33] Speaker A: He's an example of this. He's wonderful to. To watch when he, when he switches between still's campaign and, And. And. And video work and when the video and stills come together as one. Right. Yeah. To. To. To inflate the motion and the video work. Really, really nice. Really, really nice. Yeah. [01:39:58] Speaker B: How do I. Sorry, I just brought him up. How do I. How do I not know about him? His work looks amazing. [01:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Very beautiful. [01:40:04] Speaker C: I'll have to try and get him on the. [01:40:06] Speaker A: You'll see him on billboards. Can't. [01:40:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:40:14] Speaker A: Wow. [01:40:14] Speaker B: Very cool. Okay, where were we at? [01:40:18] Speaker C: Oh, sorry. Go on. [01:40:19] Speaker A: One more thing. [01:40:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:21] Speaker A: I think talking about gear and tech, I think tech these days is. Just allows that to happen so much easier. Right. Flip up a switch and you're there. Right. So videographers, you know, if you have the chance, get into photography, get into stills, it presents something different. Different changes your eye and ultimately changes the value you have to your client. Right. Some way or another, the market is, Is, Is. Is demanding that. Right. So you've just got to find a way to, to deliver. Well, whether you do it yourself or with a team or with AI or whatever, market wants that. So that's what you have to deliver. [01:41:00] Speaker C: That's it. The market certainly wants it. Everyone kind of wants both and they just don't. Yeah. Don't have time to think about hiring multiple teams to do it or whatever. And that's why, like, your, Your Approach is great of like, hey, I can, I can take care of this. I might not, I might not do it, but like I'm still the guy that you can talk to to make this happen for this shoot kind of thing. And being that guy, I think is, is important guy or girl by the way. [01:41:26] Speaker A: Just, you know, I'll always be a stills photographer though. Always be a stills guy. Yeah, yeah. I, I think I see in moments rather than see a sequence. Yeah. [01:41:37] Speaker B: Yes, it's, you know, I actually, I wanted to be a videographer. That's how, that's why I got a camera. I wanted to make videos. I actually wanted to make wakeboarding videos. Believe it or not, I wanted to, I wanted to make back in the day sports like wakeboarding and snowboarding and stuff like that. Every year teams would put out, you [01:42:01] Speaker C: know, like 30 to 45 minute like team videos that were on, they'd come out on dvd, everyone was waiting for them to come out. And I love those things. And the way that was shot was so good. The soundtracks were awesome. Everyone, all of it was always a matter of trying to push the limits of slow mo frame rates because back then like getting a, like try, no cameras didn't even shoot struggle to get 60 frames a second, let alone 4K, 120 or whatever you can get in most cameras right now. [01:42:33] Speaker B: And yeah, that's why I end up Getting a Canon 60D is like my first proper camera. [01:42:41] Speaker C: And then I found pressing the shutter button and just getting a single photo was a lot more satisfying than trying to make a video. So didn't end up getting back back [01:42:52] Speaker B: into video for like 10 years. [01:42:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember going to Dendi and watching snowboarding documentaries. [01:43:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was. And now barely anything comes out because just little sections get put up on [01:43:06] Speaker C: YouTube really quickly after you know, a trip or something that they do. So it just comes out drip fed rather than this kind of big. They've shot all winter or whatever to put out a release. [01:43:19] Speaker B: It just doesn't. I mean it happens rarely now, but [01:43:21] Speaker C: not nothing like it used to. [01:43:24] Speaker A: Well, the, the economy and the market is demanding that everything needs to be immediate. Right. [01:43:35] Speaker C: Speed. Yeah. [01:43:36] Speaker A: Even on productions. Yeah. You need content whilst you're doing it. Yeah, they can't wait, they can't wait two weeks for your images to be delivered. They need content of how you're shooting it, interviews with the models or the photographer or the producer and all that stuff becomes content. Right. And it needs to be continually fed out and rightly so. I mean people's Attention needs to be. To be serviced, right? In a way, yeah. And that, that. What do you call it? That anticipation builds up, right? Oh, that shit's happening. Right. Okay, well, next week I'll come back to this channel and see what, see, see what comes of it. Right. Because I'll be interested to see how that shot turns out. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. The, the, the content monster is real, right? [01:44:27] Speaker C: You've got to feed it. It's. [01:44:30] Speaker B: Do you, do you offer that as a service or charge for it as a separate thing or something? Or does someone else usually take care of that on a shoot? [01:44:39] Speaker C: Someone from the brand itself or something [01:44:41] Speaker B: like, like behind the scenes, that kind of content? Is that part of what you do at all? Or do you let that someone else [01:44:50] Speaker C: take care of that on a, on a shoot? [01:44:54] Speaker A: The answer is yes, I do. I do offer it. Right. Often it's not taken up as a service because it's a cost, it's an added cost. And if they, if they don't want to spend it, they want. Right. I'll do it anyway. I'll do it anyway for myself. But if, if the client pays for it, it'll be a lot more client focused rather than focused on the production, right? [01:45:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:45:17] Speaker A: So the clients normally bring some of their marketing team or sales team and they will start making, you know, their own videos. So they'll have a, they'll have an OSMO or they have a, a phone camera. And often it's socials, right? More socials and that they post immediately. I think there's a lot of value. In fact, I work, I work specifically with, with someone that does specialized BTs and she's, her processes are very adept of getting things out very, very quickly. So even to the point of live. Right, here's what's happening live now, all right. And there's a direct feed to, to your channel. So we have all of that in the background. So that's something that clients can definitely use. The, the idea is, and how to link a benefit and a revenue and a profit for the clients to pay for this. How do they cover it? And if they can see that link, then, then they will. Yeah. It doesn't happen often, Justin. I'd love it to happen more so that, that, that, that, that entire process is visible to, to everyone. That's, that's, that's watching it. And clients get a better appreciation internally for their marketing and how much effort their teams are putting in to create all this, all this work. Because often you see the, the end Result. But you don't see what it takes to get there. And behind the scenes work. Yeah, process work process documentation. Yeah. Or set stills. Yeah, we'll identify all of that. [01:46:59] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a. Yeah, that's a great point. [01:47:04] Speaker A: We'll help them get money next year, you know. [01:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. So you described yourself as a documentary photographer. Have you ever been able to do a shoot for. [01:47:21] Speaker C: Or not? Maybe not ever. But in. In recent. [01:47:23] Speaker B: Kind of your recent business being able to do a documentary style shoot for a brand. My. So my biggest client does a lot of rescue training. [01:47:36] Speaker C: They also do work on, on mine sites and things like that. [01:47:41] Speaker B: And almost all of the work that I've done for them, unless they're doing a video explaining something to the camera, all the work that I do for [01:47:51] Speaker C: them is not directed by me. It's. It's like, all right, we're sending guys underground to do a training exercise. Meet us at 8pm 8am at the mine or 6am at the mine. And that's as much as I know. And I don't get to stop anyone or start anyone or be like, it's just. It is documentary photography and I love that. That's my favorite. I'm very lucky because it's. Because it's pretty rare in the commercial world for people to just be like, we don't. [01:48:24] Speaker B: We know roughly what we want to [01:48:26] Speaker C: get out of it. But we're not going to be checking to make sure you're getting it or we're not. We're not going to stop and start anything and make sure people standing in the right spot or anything like that. Something else we're doing is happening. Like often it's training they'll be doing, running a training exercise or something like that. And yeah, I have no part in it other than making sure that I'm out of the way and it's still happening and capturing it. [01:48:50] Speaker B: Do you ever get to do with that kind of work? [01:48:53] Speaker A: Not often, to tell you the truth. Not often. But that sounds fantastic. Just the subject matter. Right. As well. And your skill sets as a wedding photographer must lend to a lot of that because things unfold quickly and you have to find what's pretty in it. Right. [01:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's probably why it's ended up happening because. [01:49:13] Speaker C: Because you know, that would. They started off like working with me and I obviously just kind of went with it. [01:49:20] Speaker B: I guess if I was a photographer [01:49:21] Speaker C: that directed things more, it probably wouldn't evolve. It wouldn't have evolved this way. It would have evolved a different way. And that would probably work with me in the way that suited the way that I work. But I guess, yeah, because I was coming off 10 years as a wedding photographer, it was, it was just natural for me to just get out of the way, anticipate what might work and try and get the shots, you know, and not, not worry too much about whether things are perfect, but more just get the best I can in that moment. [01:49:49] Speaker A: Well, the, I don't often get that kind of work, but that's, that's the kind of work, work I'm gravitating towards just in terms of evolving what I want to do. Right. So again, coming back to what we talked about earlier about travel and documentary approach narrative, if I can get into that. Oh, let's put it another way. I am actively working towards moving into that space. And the, the area that I'm choosing is sustainability and clean energy. Anything to do, sustainability, environmental culture. Right. And, and that way I know immediately that there's a layer of, of story on top of it which is too good for the world. Right. And, and that can manifest in, I don't know, agriculture, it can manifest in mining. You know, it can, it can turn up in food and beverages. So I'm working with a, a firm here called Radish Events. They're a catering company. And what bigger challenge is there for managing waste and being sustainable than a catering company? Right. 100 people are turning up, 20 people turn up. Right. [01:51:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:51:06] Speaker A: And it's beverage and his packaging and waste. So they, they, they're putting a lot of effort into it. And we're trying to work together between our schedules to try and tell that story. Yeah. Because it's harder than it, other than it sounds and looks and everything else. Because, you know, we think, okay, you just save on packaging or you, you, you reuse your stuff. But there's this managing waste. Your suppliers have to be sustainable. Your technology has to be in line so you can measure everything. Because if you can't measure, you can't be sustainable. [01:51:41] Speaker C: Right. [01:51:42] Speaker A: What do you do with the off cuts of fruits and veggies? You know, I throw them away, but these guys make the drinks, they make it into seasoning that nothing's gone. [01:51:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:51:54] Speaker A: Right. So with all that, it's always, all almost always documentary because you can't stop operations. You've got to just be there and find your space. [01:52:04] Speaker B: Not, and not only that. Yeah. [01:52:06] Speaker C: So you can't, you can't get in the way. [01:52:08] Speaker B: But also you can't, you can't just set it up. [01:52:11] Speaker C: Or even worse, that you see most [01:52:13] Speaker B: of the time is they would just [01:52:15] Speaker C: use some sort of stock photo. [01:52:17] Speaker B: So it would be like we, we [01:52:19] Speaker C: don't throw anything away and then it'll just be like a nice picture of, I don't know, a green environment or something that they've got, you know, so it's like. And that, that, it's that sort of stuff that, that doesn't, I don't think resonates with anyone because anyone can throw that on their website and say, oh, we're sustainable. And then there's just a stock photo of a generic sustainable something on there. Whereas if it's an actual behind the scenes photo of one of their employees doing something that they've, a process that they've implemented that probably costs them money but reduces wastes, that's what will. Yeah, we'll cut through to a potential client or whatever because they'll be like, oh, that's actually real. Look at them. They're actually making drinks out of the fruit that they've cut up. Like it's. Yeah, it's proof. [01:53:07] Speaker A: Right? It's proof. I think subliminally, people that look at a wide open blue ocean as sustainable or the Amazon rainforest, they get the idea. They get the idea, but proof to what you're specifically talking about and if you can link that, it's powerful. [01:53:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:53:28] Speaker B: And I think we're all becoming a [01:53:29] Speaker C: little bit more, or we've become more [01:53:32] Speaker B: attuned to like, is this just, is [01:53:35] Speaker C: someone just saying this or are they actually doing this? Is this. Yeah. Is this just a picture of the, the wide blue ocean and sustainability with the word over the top? Or is, or is this legit? And I think. Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. You could tell that story in a, in a truthful way. [01:53:51] Speaker A: If there's something I've learned ever since I've been pushing this, which has been in last year and a half, is that there's a lot of out there. Right. And greenwashing they call it. But you know, you do have to think about it positively though. I mean, if they, if they're communicating it, at least it's a start, you know, whether they're doing it or not, perhaps it will follow, but at least there's spending money on it. As long as they're putting time and effort into it. That's a, that's a good start for me. Yeah. [01:54:22] Speaker C: What's like the door is open to have the conversation. [01:54:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just I just want to say I have to have a look at that. All those mining things that you do do. [01:54:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:54:33] Speaker A: After this, please share it with me. Love to have. [01:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'll say. I should actually. [01:54:37] Speaker C: I should actually remake my website because [01:54:40] Speaker B: I've got nothing on there, but. [01:54:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like almost everything that's on their website is stuff that I've shot. Yeah. And there's only. [01:54:47] Speaker B: We've only ever done. [01:54:48] Speaker C: We're talking about the other day. [01:54:49] Speaker B: We've done one shoot. [01:54:50] Speaker C: Other than like a white background product shot or something, we've done one shoot that was set up and it's. I think we got some of the worst photos that we've ever got. [01:55:00] Speaker B: It's just not my. It's just not my thing, like getting someone to walk. [01:55:05] Speaker C: I was like, all right, walk across through here and I'll get a shot of you walking so it looks natural. I'm just like, nah, I just. I need action to be happening and that. For some reason, that gets my brain turning to find the shots. Whereas if I'm. If I'm. I've always said this. If I'm given a blank slate, I'm a pretty terrible photographer. It just doesn't. It just. My brain. It doesn't light my brain up the way it lights other people's up. [01:55:31] Speaker A: You know this out of interest. I like to hire actors instead of models for this very reason, because models are. They have their looks. They essentially know how they look at different angles. So when the camera comes to your eye, they fall into that mode. Whereas if you hire an actor as your talent, you give them a scenario and they'll play it out. And to me, that. That feels a lot more natural. Right. So you hang on to that jackhammer and you jackhammer that boulder as though. As though it's not breaking. Right. And they can get into that space because they're used to putting themselves into a role play. Much more natural pictures. Whereas if it's a model, they'll. They'll just stay there. You know, they live it. You've seen all that, right? [01:56:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:56:33] Speaker A: Type look. For you to. For you. Yeah. [01:56:37] Speaker B: Do you think. Yeah. Do you think that's. Because actors are used to. Whether it's theater or motion, Motion picture [01:56:44] Speaker C: or TV or whatever, they're used to the fact that it's rolling, it's live, so it's fluid. It's not still image. [01:56:51] Speaker B: Still image. [01:56:51] Speaker C: Still image that. That a model might be used to that sort of. Do you think that's. Other than the fact that like you said, they, they're getting into the character, into the mindset and then they just become that thing and then you can work with it. [01:57:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, 100%, Justin. 100%. And. And it's also how I shoot, right. I like to say, look, this is the scenario, you know, here's the story behind it. This is why you're walking left to right. And when they have that sense of purpose, then it comes out a lot more natural and you're right. Often you work with, or not often, most of the time you work with non professional talent like the office manager or the salesperson, you know, that's not still being in front of the camera. You know, they're first of all, you know, so nervous, you know. Yeah, but giving them, giving them a role, giving them a purpose will help them act it out per se and increase my chances of getting, getting an image. [01:57:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:57:52] Speaker B: Have you ever. [01:57:54] Speaker C: Completely different tangent. [01:57:56] Speaker B: Have you ever worked with. You obviously do a lot of corporate stuff. People, very, very busy people, CEOs and [01:58:03] Speaker C: things like that, their days are jam packed from, from before they're supposed to start till after they're supposed to finish. [01:58:10] Speaker B: Have you ever had. And a sort of, sort of. [01:58:13] Speaker C: Where I'm going with this. [01:58:14] Speaker B: Jim, he was saying that he had [01:58:17] Speaker C: a shoot, headshot shoot and he's like, [01:58:21] Speaker B: he's not doing super high end headshots, [01:58:24] Speaker C: but they're very clean and he's very fast. Like he's. If he's lighting set up like you'll be done in less than five minutes, which you're probably familiar with stuff like that. Once you've got your stuff dialed in, if the person looks the way they look and you get what you want, like, it's like, hey, we're cool, you can go. But the guy walked into the room and before Jim even got to say, you know, morning, how's your day going? Or whatever, the guy said, how long's this going to take? But in that kind of like, you [01:58:49] Speaker B: know, have you ever had that kind [01:58:51] Speaker C: of feeling from someone where they're like, you're kind of, you're the last thing they want to be doing today. [01:58:56] Speaker B: But you've got to then, you know, [01:58:59] Speaker C: take a great headshot of them. [01:59:00] Speaker B: Does that ever happen? [01:59:02] Speaker A: I thought everyone had that, those sorts of stories. I don't know. Yeah, look, the last headshot session I did, I like to have 20 minutes. I like to have 20 minutes with you to, to tease out the, the image that I like and the image that you like. Right. So the, the, the ideal is that you love it and I love it as well because if it's only one sided, then it's quite difficult. He came in, he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I've only got five minutes and I want to look straight down the barrel, the serious face. And you take the shot. That's all I want. Turns around, straight in the eye, turns around, walks straight onto the set and stands there, folded arms, body language was all, all closed. [02:00:02] Speaker B: Right. [02:00:02] Speaker A: So yeah, it's more often than, than you think, you know, because I think one of the, one of the default reactions you get and behaviors you get from people that are, are nervous and, and, and fearful of the camera is to take the, take a position of authority so that they, they, they're comfortable. Right. And especially you're a CEO or someone in a high level, that, that, that's what, that's what they do. [02:00:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:36] Speaker A: Right. So it's then, you know how you, how you tease them? I always give them what they want first. Right. [02:00:43] Speaker B: I was gonna say. Yeah, what's, what's your process? How do you, how do you go from that moment where he's just decided [02:00:48] Speaker C: to stand on the little X on the ground and just stare at you? [02:00:51] Speaker B: How do you go from there? [02:00:53] Speaker A: You give them exactly what they want first. Because if you don't, right. You're, you're already starting with a fight. [02:01:00] Speaker B: So. [02:01:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:01:01] Speaker A: So what did I say? I said, all right, you, you stand there, I want you to look into the lens and it's as though you're looking directly right at me. Use these exact same words. And that, that broke the ice, Right? Right. He goes, what? No, no, serious. I think it might be a good look. Show him. He goes, do you think you like this? You know, then he starts to assess himself. Right. And then we start, you know, making small movements. Okay, you know what? I think this works, but let's just change it a little bit and then we'll work from there. I think just like anything else, when you, when you, I think when you're dealing with someone, always try, start working from where they are so that they don't feel like they're making too big a step, right? Yeah. Whether I agree with it or not, we, we start from there and then we evolve it. The shoot turned out to be 20 minutes, right? Yeah. So it wasn't, it wasn't five minutes and, and, and there was some fun involved in it afterwards. Yeah. And we got the shot. You know, we got six shots which he which he loved. Yeah, he was supposed to get one. Yeah. [02:02:09] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's. [02:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great. That's a great story. I, Like, I knew it probably happens to everyone, but. Yeah, I was just interested that. [02:02:19] Speaker C: I don't know, often I wonder, like, does it. Does it depend on what their perspective is of the photographer or whatever or. But I guess, yeah, it can happen at. At any stage to anybody. And it doesn't even need to be a CEO. Sometimes it can just be someone who's maybe having a bad day or. Or like you say, really doesn't like the camera and needs a way to sort of, like, put a barrier between [02:02:39] Speaker A: them and the camera or even someone who has a preconceived idea of what they want to look like. Right. And, you know, I want to look like this. And sometimes they show you an Instagram pose, right. Of that person, and you just can't because body. Body is different, face is different, hair's different colors, different environments different. But they show it to you anyway. But, you know, I think it's. It's always worthwhile to start from what they want. Okay, let's get into that exact pose and let's work from there. And then. And then you start. Another way of doing it, which I find really helpful is to have a process. Right. And. And that process doesn't have to be visual. Yeah. It can be just a. A verbal communications before you start. So, first, we're going to do this, right? We're going to find your angle with your face. Second, we're going to find an angle with your body. Right. Once we like, then we're going to work on the most difficult one, which is your expression. So then they have an idea of what we're going to do in the next one hour. Right. And they work on it piecemeal. So when they start seeing images, we'll say, look, we're working on the facial angle first, so don't worry about the body. So their focus is immediately taken to small component pieces. And right at the end, they start warming up. Okay, now I know what we're doing with my body. Now I know what we're doing with my face. Now it's only with the eyes or the mouth or whatever it is. So I think describing that and educating them before you start, give them a sense of predictability and they'll start really getting more comfortable. [02:04:27] Speaker C: I love that. I've. Yeah, that's actually an amazing strategy because [02:04:31] Speaker B: it's just like learning something in the [02:04:35] Speaker C: gym or teaching someone something in the gym, if you try and tell them everything they need to know about a movement, it's just. It's too much information. It's hard to. To do this with your legs, where [02:04:45] Speaker B: you're trying to do this with your arms. [02:04:46] Speaker C: You never done it before before. [02:04:47] Speaker B: And it's exactly the same thing. It's like you're trying. I've been in front of the camera [02:04:51] Speaker C: and I reckon I've had that issue where I'm trying to think about how am I standing, how my face looking, like what? Whereas if you can just do it one step at a time. That's actually a. Yeah, that's a wonderful technique. I'm gonna steal that. All right, I will, I will. [02:05:10] Speaker B: Bruce says bulk corporate shots are hard [02:05:13] Speaker C: work when the employee. Employees don't give a. Yeah, yeah. [02:05:17] Speaker A: You're bringing up gems. [02:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he's done it. He's done it all. [02:05:23] Speaker C: Phil Thompson says you guys need to work in school photography where you have the student on the chair for 10 seconds. [02:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah, see, I get. Well, the difference is, though, the cool thing is, is, like, they're just kids and you're just like, oh, well, if you, if. If your school photo for the next 12 months is. Then I tried, but, you know, we did. We. [02:05:43] Speaker C: We got what we got. [02:05:44] Speaker B: It doesn't really work with the. The CEO of Telstra. [02:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:05:50] Speaker B: You might not get invited back. [02:05:53] Speaker A: I think Bruce's comment. I think we had 30. 35. 35 headshots, basically. And. And this was for a technology company. Technology company. And they all work from home, basically. So they were coming in, ah, specifically for a shoot and for some team building and whatnot. So it's really challenging to get them to be interested. Right. So. So because of the wide spectrum, some were nervous, some didn't want to do it, some thought that they were better looking than they were. You know, some people bought in, brought in shots that they want. It's just a real wide group of people. Yeah. But we do get those guys that don't give a, as Bruce puts it. Right. And again, I start from there, right. I was like, hey, look, man, I don't give a. As well. But, you know, it would be nice. So how about. How about Freestyle or something, you know, and then they. They start making funny faces or, you know. Yeah, Icebreaker. Right? Let's. Let's do this face. Let's do the indifferent. I don't give a face. Let's try that. [02:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, let's. [02:07:04] Speaker A: Let's do. [02:07:05] Speaker B: The developer has exited his home office [02:07:07] Speaker C: for the first Time in three years. Face just seeing sun for the first time. [02:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:18] Speaker B: Oh dear. What else? I mean it's been two hours. [02:07:22] Speaker C: We're almost, I've almost got to let you get back to actual work. [02:07:26] Speaker B: I did want to ask you about working. So you've done a lot of work obviously with lifestyle, fitness and, and athletes. Have you worked with any like athlete athletes or are they all as, as [02:07:37] Speaker C: they say in Zoolander? [02:07:38] Speaker B: More like actor slash models, you know, like the Slashies. Or have you worked with athlete athletes for, for brands and, and things like that? [02:07:49] Speaker A: I have. I just wonder where they are. Let me. Specifically, I can draw attention to specifically Adidas. Right. They. If you look at the portraits section of my of, of my site, they were launching a new, a new new apparel. Right. So they got the, they got the stars of afl, afl, Women's league, football, rugby, so on, so forth to come in to. So, so these ones. So if you stop right there, it's that set of images where you have the athletes just with their arms folded or adjusting their collars. Right. So that's Alana. I think she's now a, she's now a, a sports commentator. You often see her not, not this one just in the white jacket. Next few. [02:08:48] Speaker C: This one. [02:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. There was Mitch Moses who's rugby, right. Afl, cricket, so on and so forth. So. Yes, but more often than not they are not professionals. Yeah, the professionals are, are typically very comfortable being in front of the camera because we've done it many, many times. It's the aim for them is, is quite different is to try and get an image of them that. That's Mitch, get an image of them that's, that's different from what, what we often see in, in PR and in, in other shoots for different brands. But the challenge with non athletes is to make them look like athletes. Yeah. So often that involves the logic of shooting a lot and, and picking the right frame, much like you shoot live on your iPhone and then you start to pick the right frame and make it the key photograph. Right. If you've ever done that. Right. So yeah, I'll often up my, my frame rate to 15 to 20 per second and, and just make sure the right, the right moment. Worst case scenario, I'll have to puppet warp the arms and the legs or the fingers in a way that doesn't look unnatural. So running for example. Right. You want the fingers to be extended. Right. Worst case scenario, if I don't get it, you know, perhaps I'll use some puppet warp type stuff to open up the fingers or the. Or the legs. Yeah, yeah. [02:10:34] Speaker C: Okay. And that's about balancing all of the goals. Say, for this, you know, for this image, there's. [02:10:41] Speaker B: There's. [02:10:41] Speaker C: There's all these goals that you're trying to achieve for. For the brand. And it's like everything else worked. We just need to fix this one little thing. [02:10:50] Speaker A: So this one, Justin, is just. Since you're talking about components, this is a composite of, I think, five different images. One for the sky, one for the water. The runner. Yeah. And. Oh, that's it. Maybe four. So it was multiple shots put into one because we needed. We wanted the motion for the sky and the water, but we wanted to run still. Yeah. [02:11:21] Speaker C: How. [02:11:21] Speaker B: How often are your shots composite? [02:11:24] Speaker C: Like, how often does it get this complex to. To achieve a result? [02:11:35] Speaker A: For the end result, I'll say maybe 20, 25% for the client. Right. And that's. That's not. Because the. The brief requires it to be a competition opposite. Most of the time. Most of the time it's more making the image clean and being able to remove elements of it by using different components of that. Of that scene. So there may have been signs that are there or Covid stickers or cigarettes on the ground. Right. So you need to clean up all of that, and you could use your whole retouching brush. But if you shoot different components of it, all you have to do is brush it in. So I consider that composites as well. Right. Not strictly, but it helps me clean up the image. Right, yeah. So that's obviously a composite. Yeah. [02:12:35] Speaker C: You weren't able to get. What's that, eight people to wear the same clothes and do that all at the same time. [02:12:42] Speaker B: Come on. [02:12:44] Speaker A: Go. This one ended up in Red Bull Illum. Right. On one of the. Wow. [02:12:52] Speaker B: Really? [02:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So that. That one did well. This was at. Where was it? Down south at Bombo. [02:13:02] Speaker B: Did you. So you. You entered it into Red Bull Alum. That was the goal. Like that was part of this? [02:13:09] Speaker A: No, no, it wasn't the goal. It wasn't the goal. [02:13:11] Speaker C: Wasn't the goal. [02:13:12] Speaker A: We shot this. We. We shot this for. For Alex. He's. He's a parkour guy. Yeah. And I had that image, and when they wrote to me, I thought, oh, this might fit. And it ended up in there. Ended up as a selection. [02:13:29] Speaker B: As a selection. Did. [02:13:31] Speaker A: No. [02:13:31] Speaker B: But did it. Did it make it into a book at all? [02:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's somewhere. Yeah. [02:13:37] Speaker C: Do you know what. [02:13:38] Speaker B: Do you know what year it was? [02:13:40] Speaker A: Let me have a look. 2019. 2019. [02:14:03] Speaker B: I think that's the one. I think that's the one that I don't have. Damn it. I. I accidentally ordered the wrong one. [02:14:12] Speaker C: I've got 2016 and 2021, and I accidentally ordered two 2021s, [02:14:19] Speaker B: so I think I don't have that one. That's so cool. That was a. That was a goal of mine years ago and got left by the wayside. I couldn't. I didn't. [02:14:33] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. It's. [02:14:34] Speaker B: It's tricky, you know, trying to find [02:14:36] Speaker C: athletes to work with. [02:14:38] Speaker B: What's that? [02:14:39] Speaker A: That's the rest of your life. [02:14:41] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. [02:14:42] Speaker C: I shouldn't. I shouldn't give up on it just [02:14:45] Speaker B: yet, but it's just. It's just finding an athlete to work with, to. [02:14:48] Speaker C: To try and execute on an idea [02:14:51] Speaker A: and. [02:14:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I sort of. I don't know. I really, really wanted to. Yeah. To not. Not necessarily make it into a book or anything, but just submit something that I was really proud of, you know, that I'd worked on with an athlete just for the purpose of creating something. Not for a. Yeah. Not for a commercial job or anything, just for the. Just for the joy of it, you know. [02:15:11] Speaker A: Well, if you have an idea, I'm happy to ask around to see who. Like to. To be involved. Yeah. [02:15:17] Speaker B: That's very nice of you. [02:15:19] Speaker C: That'd also be. That'd be terrifying. [02:15:21] Speaker B: I'd feel so much pressure. That's very nice of you. Yeah, it's. [02:15:27] Speaker C: It's. [02:15:27] Speaker B: It's. It's a goal. I'll leave it on the. On the goal shelf for a while, I think, until I can. I've had a few ideas and I. [02:15:34] Speaker C: I executed on one that wasn't really. It was just a happenstance, so it wasn't perfect, but we did. [02:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:15:42] Speaker C: Did a. Like a Moto Night sky shot, but no, no composite. Like all one. One capture. [02:15:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm pretty proud of that one. [02:15:53] Speaker C: That was. That was very tricky. But it wasn't a good enough photo to. To enter. Like, it was more. The process was more interesting than. Than the end result, if that makes sense. [02:16:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:16:04] Speaker A: Did. Did you decide that it wasn't good enough or did you enter and it didn't get selected? [02:16:12] Speaker C: I decided it wasn't good enough. [02:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:16:15] Speaker C: Okay. You've. [02:16:16] Speaker A: Yes. Let them decide. [02:16:19] Speaker B: Yeah, Good point. [02:16:21] Speaker C: Good point noted. [02:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll. I'll dig back into that. But that's so cool. That's. That's. Yeah, you must be pretty proud of that. I think it's. I Mean, the amount of submissions they [02:16:33] Speaker C: get for that is insane. Insane. I don't know if it's as popular anymore, but yeah, in that sort of 2016, 2019, 2021 kind of time period, they were getting so many submissions for, for that. [02:16:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:49] Speaker C: Amazing. [02:16:51] Speaker B: What else I had, I think that's [02:16:53] Speaker C: basically what else do I have on my list. [02:16:55] Speaker B: Oh, you've, you do a lot of fitness content. Do you, do you have a fitness regime to keep yourself healthy and make sure you can carry all that gear? [02:17:06] Speaker A: Around 100, man. I'm 50, so I need to really as fit as possible. [02:17:14] Speaker B: You don't look at day over 32. [02:17:19] Speaker A: And I have a little boy who's 9 years old and he still likes being carried. So in my head it's, I've got of a sense stay fit so that I can carry him for as long as possible. Right. Because it's also a good experience. You know, very, very shortly, they, they're off. [02:17:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:17:35] Speaker A: I, I either run or do some stretches because I have a, I have a yoga background, did yoga for many years, so I either do that and I have a whole set of kettlebells which I, which I work, work with. So over the period of a week, I rotate between cardio work, my mobility work, which is stretches and movement and weight. Yeah. Because. [02:17:58] Speaker B: Amazing. [02:17:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm starting to deteriorate. You know, all the muscle mass starts. What's it called, that natural process as you age you, you lose your muscle mass. [02:18:08] Speaker B: Oh, I don't know what it's called. [02:18:09] Speaker C: I mean, it's, it's oxidization. [02:18:11] Speaker B: I don't know what they call the muscle mass specifically. [02:18:14] Speaker A: It's real. Right. So after 40, that's what, that's what happens. Yeah. So you really have to work hard to keep the muscle mass back on. And obviously my type of work, it's, it's heavy gear. Right. And you're carrying backpacks. This personal trip to Shangri La, the backpack was easily 10 kilos. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's enough for you to be concerned if your, your back isn't strong or you're moving, you know, 26 kilo suitcases with gear in it or just regular travel. Right. So I do that, I try and do that on a daily basis. Whenever I miss, I don't, I don't beat myself up about it. I just, yeah, I'm gonna miss it. Yeah. I try and eat well. Yeah. Stay away from junk as much as I can. But I love KFC and I Love beer, so. [02:19:08] Speaker C: All right, I love. [02:19:09] Speaker B: I love beer too. [02:19:11] Speaker C: I've got no advice for that, but [02:19:13] Speaker B: every now and then I do get sucked in. For kfc. Do you have the chicken or is it. [02:19:17] Speaker C: Or do you have like a burger or something like that? Or is it specifically like the pieces of chicken? [02:19:22] Speaker A: Tenders. Tenders only. [02:19:24] Speaker B: Oh, tenders only. [02:19:25] Speaker C: Okay, I've got no advice then because [02:19:27] Speaker A: it looks, looks like real chicken at least. You know, I love the nugget. Sometimes I look at, I go, what the hell is this? [02:19:34] Speaker B: This isn't real. [02:19:36] Speaker C: No, I. [02:19:38] Speaker A: Whatever. [02:19:39] Speaker B: I recently cracked the code. So I do. I do a lot of meat smoking. And I saw this YouTube video about a pallet smoker, a Weber Seawood 600. [02:19:49] Speaker C: Anyone listening? [02:19:50] Speaker A: Very good. [02:19:51] Speaker B: And so you buy. I think the technical butcher word for them is chicken, Maryland maybe. But basically it's the thigh part of the chicken with the skin on and [02:20:04] Speaker C: the bone in, just that part. [02:20:06] Speaker B: And then you. All I put on it is olive oil, salt and pepper. Put in the smoker for just over an hour at about 225 degrees Fahrenheit. [02:20:18] Speaker C: Don't judge me. [02:20:18] Speaker B: All the books are in American, so I do it in Fahrenheit and then flip them over and crank it up to like 400 degrees and it comes out and it's like, it's better than kfc. [02:20:31] Speaker C: Better. [02:20:32] Speaker B: And it's just salt and pepper and chicken. Like there's no. [02:20:35] Speaker C: No whatever that. I don't know what they put in that. But after I eat it, I feel like I want to die. [02:20:39] Speaker B: So it can't be. Can't be good. So, yeah, that's my. That's my secret chicken recipe that I've stumbled upon that. [02:20:47] Speaker C: There is a YouTube video that I about it and I love it. [02:20:50] Speaker B: I highly recommend smoking. [02:20:52] Speaker A: I don't know, that sounds. That sounds pretty healthy to me, Justin. [02:20:55] Speaker B: It's. It's healthy. What I'm saying is KFC is not healthy. [02:21:00] Speaker C: And I do, I do, and I [02:21:01] Speaker B: do like KFC as well. But this is like, this is like a healthy version of it. [02:21:05] Speaker A: It's. [02:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like I've found I know a life hack. Well, that's cool. Okay, so every day, everyday bit of exercise, but if you miss one, you [02:21:15] Speaker C: don't beat yourself up about it because as long as you're consistent over the long term, it's. It's all good. [02:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And obviously little, Little Kai plays tennis, so I have a hit with him every so often he swims. So whenever he swims I'll go for a few laps. So it's, it's all built into the, the life. You know, it's, it's incidental. Right. But it's incidental enough for it to be consistent and, and useful. Right. [02:21:40] Speaker C: I love it. [02:21:43] Speaker B: Before we, before we wrap up. So you're trying to move your business towards sort of sustainability, documentary work for brands as much as you can. Is there, is there anything else you're working on at the moment? Any projects, any personal stuff? Personal projects? Any other business initiatives that you're working on that we can keep an eye on in the future? [02:22:15] Speaker A: Nothing major I can think of. The, the Yunnan trip in China is a big one. So I'm putting, putting all of that together because it's got, it's got a really nice feeling for me about, you know, meeting people and the culture, the tea history, how diverse the indigenous groups are in, in, in Yunnan specifically. And a lot of, a lot of great imagery, beautiful landscapes and people and whatnot. So I'm working on that. I'm really excited about finding time to do that. I'm working on putting together a system for my clients so that it minimizes the friction between what I produce and what they can put out to market. We're doing that already, but just putting that product together so it's easier to complement, communicate. Other than that, not much else. I'll be, I'll be posting the, my, my, my shoots in the recent couple of months, which I haven't gotten to yet, but those will start popping up and one of them is a swimwear shoot. We've done another set for Zogs, so that's going to come up. We've done another set for a, a corporate feature, firm portraits and an image library so that, that will come up as well. And that's got a lot of behind the scenes type images in that. That's about it, really personal work. This is much longer term. I talked about radish. Yeah. So that sustainability and waste management story that's in the works but I feel that will take up to a year to get done because this, there's the technology part and there's the supplies which we have to go visit like fisheries and farmers and then there's the actual distribution guys, you know, how they move the goods around and then you've got the clients. Right. So we're trying to build a 360 story around that so that will be in the longer term. But yeah, apart from that, the, hopefully the, the stories will come through with the esg. Environmental and sustainability work. And I'll be really happy to, to share that stuff because that's where I think my personal work blends in with commercial work. And you know, when that happens, I feel that it's going to be quite powerful. Yeah. For me, that's awesome. [02:24:49] Speaker C: That's very cool. [02:24:52] Speaker B: Two more quick questions. One, is there any, is there any piece of gear that you're currently like, [02:24:58] Speaker C: you're currently like, oh, I should buy that. And now you're waiting to, to see if you can resist. Is there something that's currently on your [02:25:03] Speaker A: mind that you've been 7202nd version that. So much flexibility in that. So Chris, so fast which aligns to what I shoot. Yeah, and it's called, it's called Books B O O X. It's another version of the Remarkable. [02:25:30] Speaker B: Ah, yeah, the E Ink tablet. [02:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [02:25:35] Speaker B: Okay. [02:25:35] Speaker A: So I do a lot of, I do a lot of writing, right. Or writing as in just getting ideas on paper. So you know, I use a lot of these books and I, I just write. But the, the problem with this is like that's, that's travel journal type thing, right? Ideas. What I saw, how it made me feel, what I'm going to do with it in the photograph. But the problem with this is that it's not in my ecosystem, it's not on my computer. You know, I can't, I can't share it with you, right Immediately in the moment I have that friction. It. I just don't end up doing it right. So I'm looking at these, these tablet things. But the, the issue with the Remarkable is that it's, it's, it's, it's designed such that it's meant to keep focus and it's meant to be like a, like a piece of paper. Right. So I needed something that could, could link to the world per se. Link to, link to, to my Google Drive, link to my, my Dropbox or link to AI or browser or something. Right? So I'm looking at that, that, that Books brand, which I think it runs on Android, which allows it connectivity. So I'm looking at that. [02:26:55] Speaker B: But and so that, that would be [02:26:56] Speaker C: better than say an ipod. [02:26:58] Speaker B: I know they do iPad, they do overlays that. [02:27:02] Speaker C: What do you call them, like screen [02:27:03] Speaker B: protectors that feel kind of like paper. Be a paper. Like that's it. Have you ever tried those? [02:27:08] Speaker A: I have, I have, I have my iPad Pro right in front of me as a second screen, but somehow it's [02:27:16] Speaker C: still be it. [02:27:17] Speaker A: I need to be in between A working unit and something that I have specifically to just throw out ideas on and doodle. And, you know, that remarkable type of units are focused specifically on that. That. That's a lot faster. The reaction's a lot quicker. You don't find, like you're writing on top of a layer. You feel like you're writing exactly. On a paper. [02:27:44] Speaker B: Right. [02:27:44] Speaker A: So this is all, this is all not necessary, but it's, it's quite, it's quite targeted to your question. On, on. What am I lusting over? Actually, we need. [02:28:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:28:00] Speaker C: I've got multiple of those every week. [02:28:02] Speaker B: And then you just resist long enough [02:28:03] Speaker C: that you go, ah, I probably don't need it. All right. [02:28:09] Speaker B: And final question is if, if you, if there's a zombie apocalypse, end of the world, you can only grab one camera and one lens to document all of the things that you see and experience. What camera and lens would you take? [02:28:24] Speaker A: X100. [02:28:25] Speaker B: Oh, wow. So do you, do you own one of those at the moment? [02:28:31] Speaker A: I did up till a very short time ago, yeah. [02:28:34] Speaker B: Really? [02:28:35] Speaker A: The. It's the, it's the one before the latest, right? [02:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:28:41] Speaker C: Five or something. [02:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I sold it so that I could buy the other one. [02:28:49] Speaker C: Huh. [02:28:50] Speaker A: Right. So now I'm, I'm giving myself that time to see whether it goes away. [02:28:57] Speaker B: Wow. But it's the camera you would pick. It's. So did you. Yeah. Wow. Did you miss it? [02:29:03] Speaker A: Multiple iterations of that, of that, of that camera. And what, what, what I loved about it is just, it just, it's. It just fits my hand very naturally. That's one. Love the colors. I'm a 35 man. All right, so 35 f2, perfect lens. It's small enough. It's got nd built into it. So it's, it's the key. It's everything that I need for it to be really intimate. All right. And out of the way. So I, I. A lot of my images were, were shot on X100. The personal ones. Yeah. [02:29:35] Speaker C: Okay. [02:29:36] Speaker A: Easy, easy, easy. Question. Yeah. [02:29:39] Speaker B: Did you miss it in China? [02:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:29:42] Speaker B: Or did you have it that you. You missed having it? [02:29:44] Speaker A: You saw how, how big my bag was, right? Yeah. If, if I carried that out, it'll just be just around my neck and a small. I have a small donkey. Yeah. Which I put the, the. What's it called? The. The tcl, I think they call it. It's just the other lens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just carry a TCL with me. So it's 35 and 50. [02:30:11] Speaker C: Wow. [02:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:30:12] Speaker B: Crazy. Crazy. That the camera you would choose for the end of the world you currently don't have. I love it. You sold it. [02:30:19] Speaker A: I might have. Next time we talk. [02:30:23] Speaker C: Yeah, unless. [02:30:24] Speaker B: Unless you get drawn into the, the. [02:30:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:30:27] Speaker B: GFX100RF. [02:30:28] Speaker C: But yeah, that's too big. [02:30:32] Speaker A: Yeah, but you know what, it's, it's at that point now where you kind of have to wait for the next one because it's been that long. Yeah, yeah, but that's, that's another, that's another self preservation thing to say. Okay, I'm gonna wait to the next one. If I still feel it, I'll buy it. If not, I'm good. [02:30:52] Speaker B: Well, I think for two years, three years I've been waiting for the X Pro 4 to come out because I was like, well, I'm not going to [02:31:03] Speaker C: buy the X Pro 3 now. [02:31:05] Speaker B: And it just, they just never, it's never come out. So hopefully they're working on that. Damn you, Fujifilm. Okay. All right. I think that's, I think that's pretty [02:31:18] Speaker C: much all I had noted down. I'm sure there's a million things we could talk about, but. [02:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know anything else before we. [02:31:24] Speaker A: Thanks for having. [02:31:25] Speaker B: Thank you. Oh, thank you. Sorry for the, the audio troubles we [02:31:29] Speaker C: had at the start. [02:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Which turned out to be my problem. [02:31:34] Speaker C: I'm sure it was our, our weird system. Sometimes it just does strange things. But. [02:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you very much. It was awesome fun. [02:31:41] Speaker A: All right. Really appreciate it seeing you. If you come up to Sydney, make sure you give us a yell and I'll do the same when I'm down. [02:31:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that'd be amazing. All right, thanks Eric. I will roll some music and we'll, we'll read some comments out before the, the show ends. Rodney Nicholson says I missed half the show. We'll watch back. Very enjoyable. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Rodney. And he also liked some crunchy ribs on the smoker. [02:32:07] Speaker C: Yeah, gotta have crunchy ribs. [02:32:09] Speaker B: Philip Johnson says, thanks Justin and Eric, [02:32:11] Speaker C: have a good day all. [02:32:13] Speaker B: Bruce Moyle says, love all these images. So clean and graphic there. [02:32:16] Speaker C: They definitely are clean and punchy and yeah, if. [02:32:19] Speaker B: Go on to eyxl.com and have a browse through. [02:32:23] Speaker C: There's so many images on there to check out. [02:32:25] Speaker B: So go and go on and give [02:32:27] Speaker C: it a follow on Instagram, which I think is basically. Yeah, the same EY XL photo on Instagram. It's linked below and I think. [02:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Who everyone else that was here. Phil Nev. Oh, sorry, what'd you say? [02:32:39] Speaker A: Oh, I was just saying, just reach out. I'd love to say hello to everyone. Yeah. [02:32:42] Speaker B: Ah, that's so nice. And yeah, comment below. Any questions we'll we'll ask. [02:32:46] Speaker C: Ask him of Eric and we'll reply in the comments under this show. [02:32:50] Speaker B: Otherwise, we'll see you guys on Monday night. I'll be in Indonesia. Hopefully my podcast setup will work and we'll catch you guys in the next one.