EP47 Award Winning Filmmaker Ben Lawrence and His Secret Photography Obsession

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome to the Camera Life podcast. This is, it's the 30th of January. Can you believe it? January is all but over. 2025 is already off to a roaring start. So much is going on in the world right now. But right here, right now, you're listening and watching episode 47 of the camera Life podcast. Proudly brought to you, the team at Lucky Straps from Bendigo Victoria, who make handmade premium leather camera straps. Just remember that if you are watching along for the first time, to make sure that you're subscribed, tickle the little bell icon like the episode. Share it with some photography friends. We don't mind either way or just sit back, relax and enjoy. And don't forget that these podcasts, these videos of the podcast are on our YouTube channel. Plus we, within a couple of days, we usually have every episode up on audio podcast. For those of you that like to listen while you're working, driving, running, whatever it may be, we're joined today by director, screenwriter, producer, overall filmmaker, Ben Lawrence. Ben, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I've been waiting for the invitation. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Have you? I thought you might have. This other queue is huge. People are breaking down my door. You could now. You probably can't hear it from here. [00:01:34] Speaker C: We actually do have a queue now, Greg, though. We do. We've got a bit of a. [00:01:37] Speaker A: No, we do, we do have a queue, Justin. You're right. But yeah, welcome to the show. Ben, have you been good starting the. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Year like everyone else, cracking into work and, and getting the kids off to school and all of that transition, but feels good to start this year, actually. It feels like we're pushing some old stuff away and bringing in the new, like every year. But this, this year feels a bit different. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Is it? [00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:04] Speaker A: How does it feel different for you? [00:02:05] Speaker C: Yeah. That was obviously going to say the exact same thing. Anything specific you can put? [00:02:08] Speaker B: I don't know, I feel like there's something in the air. I mean, I mean, for me, you know, my kids are getting, getting on and I'm thinking about being an empty nester, but you know, I'm thinking about stuff that I. What my life looks like then. But I don't know, I just feel like there's, there's something about it that everyone feels a bit, bit looser and a bit more into it could just be a little group of people I'm. [00:02:27] Speaker C: Talking to, you know, I got it. Maybe not exactly the same feeling of that, but I got a little bit of that, like a little bit of this might be a bit of a year of change. A little, you know, like a year of. To make. Make some different moves, change some things up in my life. Yeah, I got that feeling too. Interesting. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Nice. [00:02:45] Speaker C: Check back later, see what happens. [00:02:48] Speaker A: You mentioned you might be an empty nester soon. I. I have a very full nest. I have five kids at home, three of which are adults still living at home. My nest is far from empty, although I am eyeing off one room as a potential office slash studio. But apparently I'm gonna have to wait. How long do you think you've got left? How old are your kids, if you don't mind me asking? [00:03:06] Speaker B: Oh, no, they're kind of late teens, so I'm just, you know, probably got. Got quite a few more years. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Just biting your time making? [00:03:14] Speaker B: Planning. Just planning. Yeah, I'm just having to fight for the space still. So. [00:03:18] Speaker A: Yep. I think the trick is, is to burst into their room every now and then with a tape measure and just start measuring wall sizes. I think it just gives them a little nudge, a little hint that, you know, your place in this house is only temporary. [00:03:35] Speaker C: Kitchen bench. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Anyway, enough about that. Ben, why don't you give us just a little brief synopsis about who you are and what your role is in the world of image making. [00:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Look, I. I am a filmmaker. I, I feel like a. I have to put that up front because photography has been a passion for a long time for me, but it's never been something that I've done professionally. There was a bit of a fork in the road in, early in my career and I thought I might do that. But filmmaking was what kind of swept me away. And the two have crossed over a lot in terms of subject matter. But the work I tend to focus on in filmmaking is documentary and, or kind of social justice type stories and. But I've always tried to maintain photography and I think it's always helped the other work. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Yep, that's good. And we're going to get into that in a little more detail. You are a filmmaker and you're actually a highly awarded filmmaker. I just want to list, read out a couple of your accolades if you don't mind, just for the folks listening and watching along at home. So let's see, you've aired your films, screened your films, I should say, sorry, not aired at festivals including Toronto, Busan, Sydney, Edinburgh, Claremont, Ferrand. Is that even on earth? Sheffield, New York City, Melbourne, Palm Springs, Sitkas and Sao Paulo. You've been nominated for Australia's most prestigious journalism documentary award, the Walkley Documentary Award. Congratulations. Two time Australian Academy of Cinema and Television Arts award nominee and four time Australian Writers Guild award winner across feature film, documentary and podcast. Oh, might have some competition there, Justin, in 2020. [00:05:39] Speaker C: I think it's on a little bit of a different level to our podcast, Craig, but yeah, yes, all right, whatever, whatever. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Potatoes, potatoes. In 2020, you were awarded the Australian Directors Guild highest award for your debut film, Hearts and Bones, starring Hugo Weaving, one of my favorite Australian actors. There was a show on recently that came out with him in it, how to Make Gravy. Oh yeah, Based on the Paul Kelly song. [00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:09] Speaker A: That's a beautiful film if you haven't seen it, Justin. Aussie film, well worth a look. Hugo Weaving in it is in it. And yeah, I think I developed a bit of a man crush on him watching this film. So there's that. [00:06:23] Speaker C: I, I just quickly, Greg, I. Before. I'm sure we'll get deeper into it later in this show, but I watched Hearts and Bones in the lead up to this and I hadn't actually heard of it before. So I'm sorry to say, Ben, I must live under a rock or something when it comes to Australian cinema. It was, it was amazing. So if anyone's listened to this and maybe they don't get too deep into this interview, if you got somewhere else to be, come back and listen to it later. But put that film on your must watch list. I'm sure we'll talk about it later in this episode. But it was, it was intense. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Now you also. 1. No, no, it's okay. That just goes on. We could just spend the whole, the whole hour and a half, two hours just reading out Ben's accolades. Your documentary, Ghost Hunter 1 Sydney Film Festival Best Documentary. You've also directed for TV series, documentary based TV or factual documentaries. And your latest documentary, Ithaca opened Barcelona and Berlin Human Rights Festival. And I think that obviously touches on some of that human rights, social justice stuff you mentioned in your, in your intro. That's an impressive list of accolades, I must say. You must feel pretty stoked to have that sort of recognition. Even if you're an introvert at heart. It's always nice to have your work acclaimed. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Oh, look it, it is nice. And those, those awards do help and you know, obviously stuff like that you put on your cv. But it's funny, I look at that and I still struggle to make a living. I still struggle to, you know, get along and I mean, they're they're projects that, you know, mostly I've kind of generated myself over many years. And you know, I, what's not on there is I really made a living for 30 years doing television commercials. I mean, directing them. So that's, that's, that's kind of kept me going, that's kept, kept me fed and a roof over my head. And it's this part time work that now is starting to get a little bit more momentum is in the documentary and drama world of filmmaking. So yeah, it's funny when you, when I look at that, it looks like it's one thing, but it's, it's very much, that's a lot of work in the background that is, you know, I couldn't have lived off really, to tell you the truth. It's, it's, it's challenging as anyone knows who's working in it. [00:08:43] Speaker C: It was one of the things that I, when I was sort of looking through a little bit of the work that you've done, it was one of the things that popped into my head was I can't imagine how hard it was just to get these projects made. You know what I mean? It's not like people are running around throwing money at you saying, hey, go make whatever you want. Just have a good time. Here's an unlimited budget like that. That is the work, that is a lot of the work just, just to bring these things to life. So it's, it's very impressive that you've been able to do, you know, more than one project at that scale, let alone, you know, the, whilst earning an income of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker B: It's a balance, it's a real balance. I look, look to take Hearts and Bones, for example, you know, the inspiration for that, you know, I can talk a little bit about, but you know, that was in 2002. The, the photograph that I saw that inspired that film and I didn't end up releasing that film till 2020. So, you know, it's 18 years go by to kind of formulate write something, raise the money, wait for the perfect time and an actor like Hugo Weaving, which really kind of brought it to the market. Yeah, but that's, that's a, that's a long time. You know, you don't have three or four times in your life and then you, you know, that's kind of your career. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing to think of, isn't it? [00:10:01] Speaker C: That's a good point. It's. Yeah, it's huge. It's like. Yeah, you don't get. It's not like you can do these just back to back to back things because they take so long to do. And like you say that all of a sudden you look back and you're like, wow, that was 20 years ago. You know, like, yeah, that's. Yeah, it's very interesting to think about. And all the way through that you're trying to run a business which I think. Is it called Chapter Films? Is that what your commercial work is under or is that something different? [00:10:30] Speaker B: I look, I've been under various companies for TV commercials. That's the latest incarnation of it. I've been represented by other companies, but I should say like all of that other work, like the films and documentaries, you know, incredibly rewarding on another level, which, you know that that is what sustained me and the people I've met and, and the experiences you get to have. So, you know, your own projects in that way are that, that's what keeps me going. You know, I'd love to do it, you know, more and make it more easily, but then maybe that would take some of the fun out of it. I don't know. It's probably. Yeah, you're a bit sadistic to keep going back and, you know, wanting the challenge. [00:11:05] Speaker A: All right, here comes another 20 years. Let's start. It's interesting because the parallel. Sorry, Justin, you go on. [00:11:13] Speaker C: I was just going to say I'm sure you want to dig into some of the history and things and particularly the history of Ben's photographic side, but I just wanted to say good morning to David from San Francisco. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Morning, David. [00:11:29] Speaker C: Got it with us. We're a little bit early this morning. I know. Did we mention that 8am instead of 9am sorry guys, we're here. Yeah, we're early. Fit in with Ben's busy life, not steal too much of his day. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's first day back at school for my two school age kids, so this morning was a bit hectic. I don't know what it's like in your house, Ben, but yeah, a bit crazy. Trying to get my. Because my Ben, my, my podcast Office is the 1 meter square corner in my son's bedroom. And to get him up early enough to get ready for the show, it's. Yeah, it took a little bit of effort. [00:12:08] Speaker B: I will send him my apologies and I thank you. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Oh no, it's character building, don't worry. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. [00:12:14] Speaker C: Throw a bucket of water on him. [00:12:16] Speaker B: He's not still there. [00:12:18] Speaker A: No, he's not still there. No, he's Gone. He's already arrived at school so he's very keen, which is good. But Ben, just touching on what you were saying about how you know, the commercial work has to sustain the income, so to speak, while you work on the projects. I think there's a lot of similarities and some of our past photography, only guests who have taken up volume photography, especially at peak seasons like now start of a new school year or graduations at the end of a year, at special events like balls and debutante balls and things like that and graduation ceremonies, they kind of bulk that in, in the peak season so that they can work on their projects throughout the remainder of the year or the, or the work that doesn't generate as much reliable income which is, you know, it's an interesting state that we find ourselves in as visual creatives that we have to juggle kind of a few, a few balls to keep things moving along whilst maintaining or sustaining a lifestyle that, that actually makes you want to keep going. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, look, I, I think it's an age old story. I, I look at, you know, artists and creative people through history really and I mean even locally you look at some writers like, I mean take Ken Doane, an Australian, you know, artist, whether you know his work, you know, he'd work in advertising or a writer like Bryce Courtney or you know, even going back to a painter like Goya, he was doing commissions for the Royal Family and then he ends up doing these, all these amazing kind of dark, nightmarish images, private and in his own work. I, I think it's a really common story and I have to say that, you know, doing commercials for as long as I did, you know, it's where I really cut my teeth in working with technicians and great cinematographers and, and, and learning my craft, solving problems on a constant day to day basis that then I can apply to my other work. So I have to be really appreciative of it. But I think it's, I think it's a blessing to have. But if you can get that balance right, that's where you can, you know, branch off. But to have that singular artistic life that you just do your own work, you know, it's so rare. I don't, you know, it's, you know, one in a million people have that. Everyone's done some sort of hard grind sort of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. And so often, you know, if you didn't go to university or you didn't study, you there's a, know if there's some sort of Apprenticeship. You do, you know, you're working in a commercial space to learn your craft, your art. [00:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:54] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think it's a. I think it's a good path, particularly in a country like Australia where the industry is that much smaller and you have to be a bit of a jack of all trades. So, you know, I'm kind of thankful of that that that passed. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Well, I guess it's taught you a lot, hasn't it, about the industry as a whole, having to work with a broad range and imagine, you know, countless people, especially on a feature film that the, you know, we've all seen feature films and even documentaries or news specials where, you know, they roll credits. And the number of people that are involved in the project is just staggering. Yeah. And each one of those people. Yeah, and each of those people has to take home a little bit of money from it to, you know, pay the bills and feed the family. And it's quite, quite impressive. I think. [00:15:42] Speaker C: I think the other thing with balancing sort of, I guess, two different sides of a profession, or I guess balancing maybe what's known as like, passionate creative work versus sort of some more commercial pay the bills work is it can give you more freedom. If you do more of the pay the bills work and it's more successful, it gives you freedom on the artistic side. So you're not quite as worried about whether you make money out of it. You're not, you're not, you know, like, think you can potentially focus in closer on your vision rather than having to worry about, is this project also going to pay the bills, I better compromise my vision so that I don't starve to death. You know what I mean? It can give you a little bit of a buffer there. Did you ever find that, Ben, that. That having a healthy amount of commercial work meant that you were less stressed on the other projects? [00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, for sure, in a lot of respects. I mean, even if you are, you know, successful in your commercial work and that, and you. There's a certain confidence that comes with that. It attracts other people that want to work with you, etc. And, and I would say also the people that you do meet in those other fields is that, you know, I don't think I could name one of them that didn't have want to work outside of that and work on something that they could really throw their heart into. And, you know, a lot of people that crossover that I'd work with in commercials came and work on films or documentaries. And so that's a really beautiful kind of thing as well. Building those relationships and learning from those people who are also storytellers is. Is really beneficial. And I would also say that things have always come along when, at least for me, than. Than when I was. When I was ready. You know, I thought I might have been ready earlier, but the opportunities are like, okay, you're. You're kind of ready now, and I could see it and I could tackle it. But you. You know, if I tried to do some things earlier on in my career, I probably wouldn't have been able to do them properly or as they might have been detrimental. So, I don't know. I think being patient and trying to stay focused on keeping that passion while you're still working and just trying to hustle away in the background, but it's really difficult. It's really difficult, particularly if you have a desire to do something else than what you're doing. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very true. I want to dial back a little bit in your history to some of your earliest inspirations. So you mentioned earlier about a fork in the road. Let's go even earlier than that. What were your early inspirations around, you know, photography, filmmaking, you know, access to cinema. What was it that inspired you to get into a visual field like this? [00:18:30] Speaker B: I was thinking about it because you'd mentioned that a few weeks ago that we talk about it. And I think it was really growing up in a creative house. I mean, the photography really came about because I think my father loves photography. The house was full of books, photography books. And, you know, they've only become more valuable in looking through them later on now in life. You know, they're such a beautiful piece and they're made less and less these days, but the work that went into them then was incredible. And that was really my entry point into photography and seeing those images and. And there's a couple of photographs that were hanging on the wall. There was a lot displayed in the house as well when I was growing up. And you know, as a younger person, you know, I'm talking like under 10 to see these images and not quite understand them, but them to occupy your dreams and your thoughts later on in the day. That's where the fascination started. And, you know, I can still remember all of those works in my mind. The ones particularly, they're on the wall or in the books that. And I didn't know. I didn't know what, what, what to make of them, but they would just kind of haunt or mesmerize me as I would daydream at school. And I wanted to understand how they were made. I wanted to understand what, what went into them. And then I discovered, you know, a photographer like Cartier Bresson, who just blew my mind. And it was the storytelling in his work that I loved. And that kind of set me on a whole path. And so it was that. That was really the haunting of those images was really what set me off, I think. And then at school, you know, I started getting my hands on cameras and stuff like that as well. [00:20:12] Speaker A: And did you. You talked about at school getting access to cameras. These were obviously film days. I shouldn't say. Obviously. Sorry. Like me, you. Your earliest interventions. Not interventions, your earliest access to cameras and was. Was in a dark room or, you know, and processing your own images. I imagine that whole, that whole shebang very much, yeah. [00:20:39] Speaker B: It was film and dark rooms and chemicals and all of that stuff. What a great grounding. But I mean, yeah, it was all of that. [00:20:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, very good. And you said that your dad is into photography. Is he still into photography? [00:20:53] Speaker B: He's not. He's a filmmaker as well. He, he. But earlier in his career he worked with photographers. He was an art director. And so it was. He kind of had this sideline. Love it as well. And I think we shared that. I mean, and again, I should say I've never worked professionally as a photographer, but I've had exhibitions and self published my, my book of my work and things like that. So it was this sideline passion, you know, that I never thought maybe I could do professionally, but I wanted to pursue it. And so he, I think, had a similar trajectory in that he was, you know, working with photographers and, you know, being exposed to their work and would take photographs himself. So I was this shared kind of secret passion. But we would admire the work of other photographers as well and talk about them. So I guess it was the way that we bonded creatively. But he, he took a similar trajectory and became a filmmaker as well. So it, it was a, you know, that shared love, I think probably has a lot to do with the relationship with my father and all of those things that I really associate it all with. And it's also a very private thing as well. And maybe that's why it never became a commercial thing for me, because it felt too sacred in a way, and I just wanted to just keep it to myself in a way. [00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Now, out of high school, did you study filmmaking or photography, like formally? [00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I had kind of was going along in this idea of becoming A filmmaker and at that time working in the film. Film industry. And you wanted to get into the camera department as. As I did because I was. Photography was the thing that I was able to do before I got into filmmaking because I could get access to a camera, I could tell a story with an image. And that was a very natural way for me to step into filmmaking, into the camera department. So I. I started off straight out of school working in a camera rental house where they would rent 35 mil film cameras. And I would clean the cameras as they'd come in off films and commercials and music clips and things like that. And, you know, we'd take them apart and then put them back on the shelf for the next project. And the people that would come in were camera assistants, focus pullers that were kind of used to be called. And they would test the gear and then go off to the production and then come back with all the gears all dirty. And I'd clean it again and send it out. So that was my kind of apprenticeship. Beyond that, I actually went and started. I became a clapper loader again. The job doesn't exist anymore. So clapper loader is the. The kid on the set who claps the. The board with all the, you know, take scene. [00:23:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yep. [00:23:43] Speaker B: And the loading part of it is you would load the film into the camera. And so you would get 400 or thousand foot rolls of 435 mil or 16 miles. And you'd put your hands in the bag, the black bag, and you'd load it into the magazine and then you'd hand it to the camera system. He'd clip it on and you'd set the gear up with them. Occasionally, you know, you might be able to do some sort of, I guess, a little bit more responsibility, but you're basically responsible for all the film on set. And then you would take that to the lab, which doesn't exist anymore. And often you would have, you know, kilos, tens of kilos of film that you would take to the lab and then they process that. [00:24:23] Speaker A: And that's a hefty responsibility, isn't it? [00:24:26] Speaker B: I thought it was. There was one moment where I opened a raw can of 400ft of, of 35 mil. And you know, at the time it was 400 a roll. Well, it was probably half that. But Paris, once you process it, it's $400 a roll, a dollar a minute. So. And you know, I was 17 and. And you know that that's kind of. There was a natural progression through the hierarchy There was a system that then you moved on to become a camera assistant and a camera operator and eventually a cinematographer, which is what I was kind of thinking I was going to do at that early stage. But I kind of broke away and I did study. I went. I went to New York for three months and I studied the NYU kind of summer school there. And that was a real boot camp for filmmakers that you made four films over the summer with a whole group of other people from around the world. And they would give you the 16 mil cameras, black and white reversal film, which is totally unforgiving. And you just go into the streets of New York and film films. And that was, wow. You know, I was 22, and I. @ that point, I said, I want to be a director. And I'd had this kind of four years of thinking I was going to be a cinematographer. But that was the progression. It really came out of just wanting to get my hands on a camera, tell a story, and then working with a group and. Or the moving image became the thing that I was obsessed with. [00:25:52] Speaker C: That sounds. [00:25:52] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:25:53] Speaker C: Amazing. Three months. That's great. Was that. What was that experience, like, even just New York, like, just did. That was. Yeah. Did you come back changed from that? [00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah, totally changed. And, you know, what's interesting is, is I came back changed. But, you know, people from around the world come in and do it. So they're all there in the same mindset. They're all kind of renting places, staying with friends, and, you know, it's summer, and so it's. It's everything. Manhattan, if anyone's been there, is everything you expect it to be because it looks like it is in the movies. And there's steam coming out of the street and all of that, so you think you're on a set, but it's. It's that intensity of belief and confidence that. That I really soaked up the visual impact of New York and then wanting to tell the stories. And, you know, I saw films that people made there that I have never seen anything like in my life, because you're all in your early 20s, you're wanting to experiment, and you're absorbing and reflecting New York. And what we do is we make a film a week, and then we'd screen all our films at the end of the week in the class, and we'd all talk about and criticize and laugh and, you know, and it was that energy. So coming back, I just felt a real confidence. I had four short films, basically, that became my portfolio that I would just show around town in Sydney and trying to get TV commercials really at that point. But it was also, I, I had left thinking, I'm a camera assistant. And I kind of came home thinking, no, I'm going to be a director. And it was really putting that shingle out on the door and saying, this is what I want to be. And it was kind of trying to make that work then. That was the plan. And I remember talking to my teacher about it before I came back to Sydney, and he said, what are you going to do? And I said, I want to do TV commercials. I think I can make a living doing that, you know, and they were probably more lucrative then. But there was a path I could see I had a little body of work. I'd made it also a short film in Sydney before I'd left. And it was those kind of three or four pieces of work that I really came home and just started going around to advertising agencies and showing them and saying, look, I'll do charity work. And that's really where, where I kind of started to build a portfolio, TV commercials. But it was. And I say one more thing about that experience is that it did change me. It gave me a confidence, it gave me a portfolio. But people look at, look at you differently. I think there was this. I think there is still a degree that going overseas is, Is a healthy thing, but Australians tend to see it as a legitimizing process. You know, I don't necessarily think we have the confidence yet as much, or there is something seen about North America or Europe that having worked there makes you seem more. Seem better in a way. It's that cultural cringe. And I certainly experienced that because all of my work was the streets of Manhattan, you know. Yeah, you're a photographer and you go and do a project over in London, then come back and they go, oh, wow, you've worked in London. I don't know why that it works, but it, it, it does help. And I wish it wasn't that way. And I think the confidence thing is changing, but it still has an effect. Any going out and coming home and, you know, with the treasure. [00:29:10] Speaker A: It's true, isn't it? It is very true. With, with your trip to New York, was that the first time you'd left the country? Left Australia? [00:29:20] Speaker B: No, I had gone over there when I was 20 and I bought a car with a friend and we, we drove the West Coast. So that was kind of, that was always my plan. I, like, I dreamed about America growing up was really kind of One of those places that I'd watch films and you wanted to be there. So that, and then I came home a year and I think, yeah, a year and a half later I went back, I lined up the school and I, you know, saved up and, you know, parents helped me and it wasn't. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Such a big culture shock because you. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Don'T make it to New York on that first trip. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker B: And that was the plan. We were going to drive across and go there. So it was kind of unfinished business for me. [00:29:57] Speaker C: Did you take, did you take any photos on that first road trip? [00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I did, yeah. It was all, you know, it's this, it's the ongoing project of street photography that I love that that is in, is in that road trip and subsequent, you know, trips that I've. Yeah, yeah. So that, that's really the only way I had to record it was through photographs. Didn't have a video camera. We buy a couple of disposables. But I, I did take my, my trusty camera along and it was all black. [00:30:31] Speaker A: So what was you, what was your trusty camera back then? [00:30:34] Speaker B: Well, I would just use an automatic camera. I, prior to that, I had a, A, you know, a, like a tank of a Pentax that was all metal and, you know, I'd put a fixed lens on it and I'd practice pulling it out and trying to set the exposure and focus really quickly. Just when I wasn't taking photographs so I could be quick. And then I thought, why don't I just get an automatic camera? And I got a little, like a little mini Lux, a little Leica that was, you know, steel body, had a 35 to 70 on it, but it was quick, it had really quick focus and that's what I wanted. Then I was doing street photography and I'd still used to agree. Quick focus is really important for me is to capture those moments and, and move on. And move on. Yeah, and, and is reliable and, and built tough and, and all of those things got good glass on it. So. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And what about now? Do you. Sorry, Justin, you go. [00:31:30] Speaker C: I was, I was just going to say before because I, I, I sense we're going to dig into some camera stuff. I thought street photography stuff. I thought before we do that, I might just bring up a couple of comments. Good mornings, David, Number two from Tassie Digifrog. Morning, Greg, Justin and Yelena, because he's onto it. Spell check. Good. That is correct. That is Elena's name spelled correctly. Well done. Elena says morning all morning Elena. Morning. Dave 1 and Dave 2. We've got this. Ben, we've got this weird collection of Davids that listen to the show. They're from all over the place. It's awesome. I think we had four one day in the comments, which was very impressive. And David Mascaro is currently looking at his two favorite books while listening to the show, the Americans and Humans of New York. You got that book last week, the Americans, I think you said David. Or was that like a limited edition or something? It's very cool. [00:32:19] Speaker A: And David's a street photographer from San Fran. [00:32:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Oh, beautiful. [00:32:24] Speaker C: Loves his film. Film cameras. [00:32:26] Speaker A: He does, yeah. [00:32:29] Speaker C: Cameras. [00:32:31] Speaker A: Let's get into it. So Ben, you talked about your, you know, your earlier cameras, especially for your trip away. Do you, do you still carry a camera with you these days or do you have one that's ready to go and if so, what is it? [00:32:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I look, I've got an A7s and I usually just put like a 35 fixed lens on it and I, I actually got that to film a documentary because it was kind of a bit of a breakthrough for me at the time because it was such so good in low light and you know, the video was really good. But that's what has become my stills camera. It's kind of having issues now, technical issues. I'm probably ready to invest in another one. But I would probably get a similar of the Sony range I like. But that was, that's the camera I go to at the moment if I'm going to go out and take photographs. I just. What I do like about it is it's small and I can generally carry it around. I like the images. I can kind of push it if I'm in, you know, in low light for stills. So that, that's what I'm using at the moment. But prior to that I'm trying to think the big, the big breakthrough for me, and I remember when it came in was the Canon 5D, particularly for video. I mean, you know, talk to anyone about video and the capabilities of that and I lugged one of those around for a while, but that was just too big again. It just reinforced that I needed a smaller camera, physically smaller. And I, if I was doing a purpose trip, I'd probably, and I was just going to do street photography, which I would really, you know, is my love. I would get something really small and probably closer to more to a manual automatic type thing and that just, that would just suit me so much. The less I have to think about it the better. And yeah, not, not film. I haven't used film for a long time. I mean, I'm still doing prints that I'll dig out if people want them. I'm, you know, occasionally people will ring me and say, can you do this print for me? And I, it's getting harder to find people who are printing as well. But I haven't touched film in a long time, you know, not, not in filmmaking and, or still. So it's a, it's. I know people are still using it. [00:34:47] Speaker C: And it doesn't have. Because you've done so much work with it in the past, professional work, you've had to lug tens of kilos of it back and forth to labs. It doesn't have any draw for you, any sort of nostalgic draw, the colors, anything like that. It was just a tool. And now there's more convenient tools. Like. Is that what. [00:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, yeah. Look, I, it's, it's funny, it's a, it's a conversation that often comes up with younger filmmakers because that's who I'm coming across, you know, more often who are interested in film. And I know that stills photographers, younger stills photographers, have a real passion. And still some people have continued to work with it, who started on it. But the, the speed in which I can work on digital is just outweighs anything that I might get out of film. And it really is a bit of a balance. But maybe it's because I really grew up in that system. But if someone pitched me the idea that we're going to go onto this system where what you have to do is you have a heat light sensitive material that you have to physically carry around and that you've got to load it in and you send it away and it comes back a few days and then you get to see. I'm like, why would we do that? So I'm just trying to clean the slate and go, okay, I'm going to pitch this new system to you. And the benefits are that we, we get a certain look. But I think, look, there's a really deep nostalgia. If I really went into my heart of hearts. I love that system. I love the, I love the discipline of it, particularly the, the film using film on set, the discipline it creates around filmmaking and the consideration that you apply to your, your coverage or the shots that you're doing has an effect on a set, a film set, a number of people and the process of telling a story, which is unlike anything else. Once that disappeared, storytelling changed. And I think that, you know, historians will go back and see that change to digital. Now we shoot so much, I mean, virtually, you know, you would, at one point you would be filming about maybe 10% of the day. Now you're filming like 80% of the day. And then you have an editor that's getting all this stuff now instills in a kind of an equivalent sense. Working with film now is so cost prohibitive. I was, you know, what I wanted to say before about getting my, my negs out, you know, in the present day it's getting so expensive to make prints. That's a real shame, you know, unless you're doing it yourself, but that things are getting harder to find. So look on a balance, by balance, one side of me says, I love it, you know, because what it brings, which is a consideration to the imagery for me. And then the other side is, you know, having digital, having that freedom is. I've decided to go down that path because I've weighed up both. Yeah, I look at my old cameras now and I go, man, that's just, you know, it's such a beautiful thing. It was the peak of kind of mechanical and engineering, you know, they'll never be like that again, I imagine. But it was nice to have seen that period. And I can see how younger photographers feel like they miss something. You know, it's a pretty magical time to have had that technology. [00:38:09] Speaker C: I think it was something I think about sometimes as well is I think people were maybe more attached. You can maybe speak to this because I kind of missed it as well. My first camera, I didn't, I didn't get into photography young, so my first camera was digital. And then I sort of dug back into film a little bit, but I'm not really deep into it like some people are. And I feel like people were. Maybe photographers were more attached to their cameras previously. You know, they might have a body for a lot longer because the technology moved a little slower. You know, it wasn't a two year upgrade cycle to the newest, fastest sensor with the most mega pickles or whatever, you know. So is that like, did you find that, did you have cameras for a long time when, when you were shooting film when you were younger, did you buy and it was your camera for 10 years, eight years or whatever? [00:39:06] Speaker B: Totally. I mean, I've still got those cameras, but, you know, the first camera that I used was, it was an old Pentax at the, my dad had bought, you know, 15 years earlier. And then I start using it for another 10 years. So the camera I was using was, you know, all of a sudden it's 25 years old. I mean that, yeah, you know, that's one thing I feel, you know is a real challenge for you know, modern photographers and cinematographers as well is the updating of the equipment because of the firmware or the new technology. You know, they're on a 6 month, 12 month cycle now that is just trying to chase that financially and then trying to keep up with all the technical and the different languages of the different companies that are putting out different specs that you know, they don't really, there's not at that point there was a market language and when a camera came out from Pentax or a camera came out from someone else they're equivalent because they had this, they spoke the same language and that was the camera. You know, you could update it but it wasn't going to change. It might be, you know, so that was, yeah, that, that's, that was a very different thing. [00:40:10] Speaker A: There's a lot more consumerism and around current gen cameras and this like you said, this six to 12 month cycle of upgrade where photographers and you know, I mean there's, there's the commercial aspect where you need the best gear to get the job done because it's competitive market but for kind of entry level or enthusiasts, you know, the screens are shouting at them. You need megapixels, you need eye autofocus, tracking, you need, you know, all of these features that, well you don't need them, they're nice to have if you want to actually dial into that, all that stuff. But you know, and as a result people lose track, I believe people lose track of the basics because they get so caught up in all the whiz bang features that you know they, they almost rely on the camera to do too much of the work. They rely on the camera to get the focus, they rely on the camera to auto expose. And I know that those features are there for a reason. You know, they're there to, for convenience and, and speed and but for, for a lot of people they lose sight of those basics which film photography teaches you about your exposure triangle. And I think that there's a lot more, I, I would like to see a lot more work done in education spaces around, you know just, let's just start off with aperture, shutter and ISO. You know and when I write articles and education pieces I always try, I always harp on, I do harp a bit about turning all those features off and just sticking with the, with the basics and mastering that until you can do it in your sleep. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I think, I think it's a great point. Yeah, I, I, you know you make a really good point because it, the marketing is speaking to us and I think we apply it to our televisions or our cars or whatever and it's become a very camera. And you know, I agree, I'm very much of the mind that you need to know all that technical stuff and then to be really good you need to forget it. And once you can forget that stuff then you can actually start to think about what is your vision, who am I, what camera do I need telling me I need, but what do I need for my vision? And if it is a box brownie or if it is the greatest high res camera then that's great, you've worked that out. But it's, it starts from that individual. But knowing what all of those things mean. I mean you could spend your whole life trying to work out what all these kind of technical language means and sometimes you just need to forget it and actually think about the image and what, what you want to create. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:00] Speaker B: And that, that is in of itself a journey because the technical rabbit hole is consuming, is all consuming. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Well, our friend Justin here, J Dog as I like to call him now, he, he loves to read a camera manual whenever he gets a new piece of kit. [00:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. [00:43:18] Speaker C: It's getting harder now. They don't, they don't give you in paper anymore. You have to go on an app and stuff. Frustrating me. I was a, I was, get the manual out, read the manual and then, then you know what you're sort of dealing with when you're out, you know, shooting and something goes wrong or you're trying to make something work. But yeah, yeah, just, just circling back onto what like what you guys were talking about with. I think it's interesting what's howling. So you, you want to shoot with a simple automatic camera and I think that is where maybe people get lost or can get lost today because there's so much technology available, the focus gets taken away from the image they're trying to make or the story they're trying to tell the subject. And, and that to, to make a good photo instead of the attention being on the image, the scene, the subject, the attention is getting put on. Do I need a different sensor or how am I going to edit this later to, to make it look cool or you know, what's the newest technology I can use to make my photos look Cooler or better or whatever they're chasing as opposed to I've got an automatic film camera or an automatic whatever, point and shoot or something and, and then like, okay, how do I, how do I go on a journey to create an image that I can essentially, once I've found it, press the button. You know what I mean? So it's, it's. So yeah, I think that's, it's a different way and an interesting way of looking at it that probably comes from, from your younger years when you were just shooting with a simple camera that. But it was more about finding the thing that you actually wanted to capture. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think also there's, I noticed in. Sorry, Ben. I spoke over here just quickly in workshops and at events. It's a, it amazes me still. And I know I've talked about this before for past listeners, but where people are standing there with these, you know, $10,000 camera bodies and lens combos and a bag full of glass and they're asking the workshop instructor what ISO they should set the camera at or do I need a tripod? In fact, I just wrote an article for Lucky Straps about do I need a tripod? Because I heard, I've heard that question at so many workshops with people that are carrying, you know, more gear than I could possibly ever afford to buy. I'm rocking around a 12 year old Fujifilm X70 with a 16 megapixel sensor and a fixed 18 mil lens. That's my favorite street photography camera. And they're carrying these, you know, these things that could basically, if you'd sold them, you could buy a car. And they don't, they're not sure what ISO setting to put it at. And I think that there's a lost opportunity there among camera brands. They've dazzled us so much with features and specs and performance and mega pickles and all of the stuff that is great. We love it, we love the tech, absolutely love what cameras can do. But it's almost taking the art out of it, you know, and that raises a whole nother debate about a hot topic around AI. You know, not just in editing and image making, but also our cameras are now, you know, they're now boasting AI deep learning. What was that? Canon 1 deep learning. Neural networking. You know, create these buzzwords. Like when canon released the 5D Mark II in the R1, they talked about that they've employed AI deep learning for. [00:46:58] Speaker C: Upscaling and noise reduction. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:47:01] Speaker C: Which, yeah, we, we'd love to talk to A tech about what exactly? The neural network. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker B: What does that mean? [00:47:11] Speaker C: Yeah, inside this camera. But anyway, it's almost like, you know. [00:47:15] Speaker A: You see cosmetic ads and they trademark fake word, like they make up words and trademark them and claim that they've created this miracle, blah, blah, blah, serum, you know, but it's just a made up marketing term for a bunch of chemicals that they put together. You know, it's that whole kind of dazzle us with the bright lights so we can't kind of see what's behind the lights. You know, we can't see the actual details. And, and I think, I think camera, camera brands are too focused on, on the marketing aspect. I think that there just needs to be more education around. Okay. You've got this great tool, you know, and they used to do this sort of stuff where you'd buy a camera and you'd get a certificate tour workshop at the camera store on how to use it. And I don't think they do that sort of stuff anymore because it's, you know, it's not cost effective and we just want to get gear in hands. Everyone else can work it out for themselves. And I think that we're losing touch with going back to the fundamentals and the basics and the art of image making and seeing with a photographer's eye, not letting AI see it for us. [00:48:23] Speaker C: Just to defend, to defend the camera brands that I love dearly. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Here we go. [00:48:30] Speaker C: I was just gonna say no. All of them. All of them. You know, like we're having, we're having Charlie from Fujifilm on. We're doing a double show. By the way, anyone today will be back on at 11:30 with Charlie for a quick show about their creator summit in Sydney. And there'll be a heap of learning there. I think the thing is you're, it's like. And they're, you know, we saw all the camera brands at the bright festival of photography. Basically all of them were there running. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Workshops and sitting down with people, walking. [00:48:59] Speaker C: Them through new gear, free education. But that's getting to a certain group of people that are kind of searching for it. And like you say, there's probably less of that. Hey, here's your new camera. Here's how to learn, you know, how to learn how to use it. So it's sort of, maybe it's not getting to everybody, but they are doing things. I want to defend them. They're poor. Putting resources into events and into. [00:49:22] Speaker A: No, they are. Yeah, it's for people, it's. There's also an element of Privilege that we were able to afford, or I got a free one, but we were able to afford tickets to be fob. You paid for your own online. Mine just got handed to me. Thanks for putting on the spectacle. But you know, and paid to travel there, pay for accommodation. Well, you paid for that too. So really, I don't know what I'm saying anymore. But you know, like that, that is a, there is a privilege there. But maybe it's about camera brands sponsoring people like, like you and me to sit down on YouTube and run education courses. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Let me see where this went. You're just looking for a sponsor. I think that's a good idea. Well played. Yes. Sponsor us and we will help the, the world. [00:50:12] Speaker A: That's not what I'm saying. [00:50:14] Speaker B: I, I think, I think certain brands are doing particular things with their product that speak to different areas of the market. You know, and I look at someone like Fuji and my impression is that, you know, the speed of their autofocus has been incredible. Not packing the, the, the sensor too much, you know, so they're just trying to rack up resolution numbers for their, their marketing. Yeah, they're being very conscientious about some things, areas that they're working on and Sony's doing their own thing. And so if you know those nuances, it's very beneficial. But I always come back to this idea, and I remember my father said it to me, is that if you're walking through the streets or the bush and you have black and white film in your camera, you see the world differently, as if you have color film in there. And so the tool does affect how you see the world. And. But if you have an understanding of what it is, but if it does everything, you kind of don't know what you're doing and it is somehow just having that relationship with that item that you know what it does. But look, the other thing is someone's equated the idea of street photography to like hunting. You go out and you hunt something, you find something, you've bagged an image when you come back and you feel that feeling when you've got it. You know, you've got that one image in that, in the group of shots you've taken. And so with, with that in mind, that if you are a real hunter, you don't want your equipment to get in the way. So what is it you're trying to do and is it going to get in the way? And so if you can define what the goal is, that equipment decision becomes a lot easier. Yeah, but it does it very similar. It doesn't a lot seem like a means to an end. The equipment. It just seems like the equipment is the end. And as long as I've got everything that it says, it, you know, that the world says I need. [00:51:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:59] Speaker B: But beyond that, I think you're right. The thought needs to be, what is the goal? I'm a wedding photographer. I'm a street photographer. I'm a studio. I'm a, you know, what is it? I'm gonna strap it to something and you know, nice segue. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Good plug the. [00:52:13] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, lucky camera straps. Buy one. No, I love the idea of. Of We. We talk about constraints all the time. Greg often talks about one lens. No, no extra gear, get out and shoot kind of thing. And it does focus you in. I think an example I can use of when that's been really relevant to me is I do some commercial work that involves photo and video hybrid, hybrid coverage. And I really struggle. Like, I do my job and I get good work, I think, but I don't get as creative, I don't think, when I'm trying to do both. And I think that's one of those things. It's like when your camera can do anything, it can be hard to really hone in on creativity. It's the same reason I do like shooting with primes. Even though I know if I see a 24 to 70 at 50 mil, it's still a 50 mil. But for some reason, if I put a 50 mil on my camera, I feel like I do get better images. [00:53:20] Speaker A: Well, it's one less thing to think about, isn't it? [00:53:23] Speaker C: And I think that's it. And so when I have to shoot photo and video on the same project, that additional complexity is taking up gears in my brain that don't get to get applied to the image that I'm searching for or whatever. And I think that's like you say, load black and white film in. You see the world differently or. Yeah, yeah. Whatever sort of constraint it is. And. And yeah, maybe that is. Maybe that is something. Our cameras are getting too good. Too many, Too many options. Too many different. [00:53:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:54] Speaker C: Thing. Buttons to press. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Well, look, you've only got so much bandwidth, you know, when you're working and. And, you know, I know I've been in situations, you know, filming a documentary and I, you know, one particular project I did, I was using the A7s. I was doing video, I was shooting sound. And then I was trying to stay connected with my character, who I was also interviewing. And and talking to. While I'm running it and having all of those input is. Is. I just feel like it. Your fireworks are going off in your mind. You know, you're looking at all the histogram and you're hearing the set looking at the sound levels and you're starting trying to stay emotionally connected to this character. [00:54:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:38] Speaker B: So you have all these different parts of your brain firing off and, you know, my kids play violin. And the maths and the sound that tries to go in to create something, the coordination, then you're framing and all of those things. It. If you can simplify that process or simplify or reduce down those things you have to look at. Yeah. What elevates is what people are ultimately going to see, I think. Yeah, I think so forth that imagery. [00:55:04] Speaker A: I think if you can just go on, Justin, you go. [00:55:07] Speaker C: I was just going to say. And go in the other direction. I assume this is probably a dumb question, but that's why as projects get bigger in the filmmaking world, that's why you end up being a director with a camera operator and a sound guy or whatever. Because then your bandwidth is getting split between two brains, three brains, you know, they can. They can focus in on their individual role and you don't have to be thinking about audio levels or whatever and you can just really. Is that how it works? And as the project. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Totally. And the ambition. The ambition for the shot can go up pretty high. I mean, if you have a great group of people and they're working in sync, the ability to do certain type of imagery that is highly complex or dangerous or ambitious or whatever particular time of day in a short amount of time, you know, you're working with a really tight window of light, you know, or in. In a really tight group. You're all just have very, you know, focused, in sync kind of ambition. [00:56:01] Speaker A: So. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's exactly why it can work really well. But, you know, again, you know, you. You explode out a number of people in a situation and it can actually. You lose something, you know, which is spontaneous spontaneity or. Yeah, something like that. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I think the. The thing I was going to say is when I run street walks, some. Some people that attend my street walks find it confronting because I will say you're only allowed to bring one lens and it has to be a wide. If it's a wide prime better. And then they'll arrive and I'll say, okay, everyone, do you all know how to set your camera so that what you're seeing through the viewfinder or the screen is black and white and, and I'll set some constraints and they all, they all get a bit confronted. Well, I don't have a wide angle lens. I've only got this 50 mil. Okay, we'll just use that. But don't bring any others. You know, really just making the camera just an extension of your creative self so that you're worrying less about zooming, you're worrying less about a hunting in a bag full of lenses while the shots walking away from you in front of you. Especially in street photography or doing street walks, you know, I tell them to get the cameras out of their bags, just have it in your hand the whole time because otherwise you'll miss the shot in that moment in time and space, will never happen again. So I think that limitations, camera companies are trying to tell us that expansive options is the key to creativity. And, and they're right to a degree if you've got the skill set. But for the average, the average photographer, enthusiast or even entry level law, I think limitation is the key to creativity because you worry less about what's going on here and more about what's, what you're seeing and what you're, you know, and that's how you, you develop a photographer's eye. You don't develop a photographer's eye hunting around the bottom of your bag. You know, you've got to be looking at the light. And it's interesting what you said about how street photography, you kind of likened it to hunting, going out on a hunt. And I often say hunt the light. When I talk about my street photography, the people will just appear. That's not what you're looking for. You're looking for the light and how that sets up your composition. Almost like a trap, like a bear trap. You're just waiting for it. [00:58:20] Speaker B: You're in a hide. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:22] Speaker A: You're just waiting for the person to walk into it. And, and as a street photographer, your height is to not to just blend in and not be, not be walking around with a, you know, a huge camera body and a bag of lenses and a, you know, it's to be simple and almost invisible to what's going on before you. Yeah. [00:58:41] Speaker B: It know. And if you don't know that and you know and you discover something like that, you feel like you've discovered a secret. Because if you want, your goal is to get that image on the street and someone says find the background, find the light, be there first before your character walks in. All of that stuff, it's like, oh yeah, I can, I can, I can do that and I can wait and I can be patient and. Yeah, that's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And it is, it is, it is like hunting. You know, you're, you're waiting, you know, you're, you know, and you get a, you get a moment, you get a brief moment and you got to know when to get it right and. Yeah, yeah, and, and thinking quickly like that. I think that can be applied to a lot of different other disciplines if you are working in other areas of photography. Oh, it's very nice. Exciting kind of space for your mind to be in and framing quickly and, and then to look back at it all and, and learn from that. [00:59:30] Speaker A: But the feeling, yeah, it's unmistakable. But I think the camera companies to a degree will want us to think that everything, everything is fleeting and that we need all of this tech to get it quick. You know, it's, it's the whole, you know, capitalism, consumerism, fast paced, everything needs to be better than the last generation and faster and better and you know, because life is busy and so you need to be able to get these shots or this imagery quickly and accurately and so you don't need to think about it, you don't need to edit because we'll do, you know, AI in noise, in camera and you know, all of this network. You know who we need to get on the show? Justin? We need to get. Was it Lloyd from Canon? Yeah, it was a beef up and we said maybe we sat by the fire with him and he played guitar. [01:00:21] Speaker C: Yeah, he's very smart. Explain the neural network to us. [01:00:25] Speaker A: Yeah, we're gonna, yeah, we might get Lloyd. He's a, he's a technician for Canon and he was at the Bright Festival of Photography and. Lovely guy, so intelligent and yeah, he would, he was on hand just for participants to, you know, if they needed a sensor clean or they needed something fixed on their camera or. [01:00:46] Speaker C: It's interesting. I've heard some interviews and we've spoken to some people in the, you know, in the industry world from camera companies and I've heard some interviews with engineers and, and people on the product side and I do think there is not a disconnect between the marketing side and the engineering side. But I do think, you know, we talked to Russell Lord about his relationship with Fujifilm. Russell Lord's a. One of the world's best photographers who jumped to Fujifilm very early on, so putting themselves in, in very dangerous situations with massive weight waves, surf photography, but using cameras that arguably weren't designed as elite sports cameras to begin with. They're, they're definitely, they're still not designed to horror, but they're certainly pushing towards that. They've got a lot more sports photographers now. [01:01:38] Speaker A: He was doing it before, he was using GFX's before they were popular. [01:01:42] Speaker C: And same with X series. I think he had the X Pro one or whatever, you know, like he had very early on. Anyway, he was taking feedback to Fujifilm and they were implementing it and that sort of thing. Thing. And I do, I wonder on the engineering side, I don't know if they're as much thinking like, hey, we need to put a neural network in the camera because we'll be able to put that on the marketing thing. I often wonder, is it like they're getting feedback from all these directions of, you know, there's filmmakers using a lot of the mirrorless cameras, the hybrid cameras and stuff like that. There's sports photographers, there's portrait photographers, wedding photographers, there's landscape photographers. And some of these, all these use cases are feeding back information on like, hey, this could be better, that could be better. And the engineers and the product team are doing their best to just create the next camera that's going to sell well and they're just genuinely passionate about making a better tool for all of these different potential cases. And then that gets dragged through the, the marketing team and sort of drawn out into these. You must have this or you won't make good photos. You must have that or, you know, like this new camera is, is the be all and end all. Whereas I do think, and I think the, the Canon R1 was kind of a bit of an embodiment of that because it come out. Sorry to talk about Canon stuff, Ben, you probably don't care, but, um, the Canon R1 come out this year and it's, it's the flagship, like, body, often being the, you know, photojournalist body, the sports body. And it got kind of picked on in the media world of photo news for being not that good because it didn't have a big jump in megapixels or, or any kind of features that they thought was new and impressive or anything like that. But all of the updates were just things that made it a good tool in the hand of someone that knows what they're doing, you know, just, just better, incrementally better at everything, as opposed to saying, oh, it's now got twice the resolution or, you know, insane high ISO capabilities or anything like that. It was all just, just a little bit better and Yeah, I sort of wonder whether that happens. And a company goes, oh, shit. Well, that was a bit of a failure. Next time we'll just have to make sure we tick the boxes of making it marketable rather than just doing what, you know, what makes it just an incrementally better camera for professional and passionate photographers. I don't know. [01:04:24] Speaker B: Yeah, look, no, they're on that cycle as we are and they've got to think about what's the next one. They know there's a buying cycle coming up in Christmas or whatever and someone's going to renew every, you know, six to 12 months now. And so what, what is that next thing? But, you know, you take a flagship, you know, camera like the R1 or something, it's a story, you know, they become iconic and for them not to update it is kind of a. It's a really interesting approach. It's almost going against it and, and going against that update, kind of chasing that update fever. But I think in some ways it respects who built the reputation of those cameras. You know, it's the people who wanted something reliable, something bulletproof, something that they could take out into the field. That's actually what makes that a great camera. And you put good glass on it and it's going to be, you know, everything it needs to be. And so I think Canon in that regard is speaking to their legacy and they're also thinking about those things. But, you know, when you come down to the prosumer market, maybe, or the amateur market, it's those things that are going to pique their interest. When you're looking at the new. The new words, the flash words, the buzzwords that are going to sell, possibly. So there's many markets and. But I think it's certainly a change market and it's a cycle that is. Puts enormous pressure on companies. [01:05:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:43] Speaker B: And that pressure then comes on us because we go, oh, we feel this, you know, need to update. [01:05:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:49] Speaker B: So look again. I would just, you know, look at what, what is needed, you know, and sometimes a lot of people just want a good camera to take photos, graphs of their kids, and kids are difficult to take photographs. You want something that's quick and, and can handle a lot of different variable light situations. So they're the two things you look at. But yeah, they're all doing. Working in really interesting areas, I think these companies, but are all struggling to define themselves in a different market, a different landscape. [01:06:18] Speaker C: And that's where it's interesting. You mentioned Fujifilm as well. It's like they are one that certainly said, all right, this is how we're going to define ourselves. Here's our plan. The other guys can do what they do, we're going to do this. And, and it's been successful for them. I think they've. [01:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it has been. [01:06:35] Speaker C: Everyone now knows what they are, you know, Whereas some of the other ones, it's like, well, what, what is the difference between Nikon, Sony? Oh, well, I don't know, you know, like it's, you know, if you know. But I think more people from the outside know what Fujifilm is, is what's in their DNA, you know. [01:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:55] Speaker A: It's interesting. When I first started shooting with Fujifilm, people say, oh, what camera is that? Because, you know, it's got that retro aesthetic. And I'd say, oh, it's Fujifilm. And say, oh, it's a film camera. It's like, no, no, no, they do digital now. Like it was always this. I'd have to explain it a little bit, you know. But now people, you know, and I have one of our local camera stores here in Melbourne in the cbd, who I've been doing business with since I started photography. I'll go in there and there will be five people looking at Fujifilm gear. Like they'll have it out display models on the bench. It's become really popular. I think people are seeing it as a more travel friendly option too. And Fuji are doing a lot to promote it as a youth or more creator friendly kind of platform, which is interesting. [01:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then you have those flagship models that people see that. Oh, that photographer, who's a working photographer who works in these environments, has that camera, can afford it, it's there, you know, it's their income. So they're like, I can't get that. But what, what are the, the lower tiers. But because I still want to. [01:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:08:04] Speaker B: It's a legacy brand type thing. Yeah. And I think Fuji are moving into an area that maybe Canon did kind of have that with the, with the photojournalists and things like that. You know, different kind of histories of each company too. When they lean into that a little bit and celebrate that in a true way. I think it's a really interesting thing if they're still able to, you know, do development like, like Fuji certainly is. [01:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, very good. [01:08:30] Speaker C: Can we talk a little bit about the photography projects that you've done over the years, Ben? You've got a few projects. What was there a first project that you did that you sort of thought, you know, What I want to, I want to make this into a body of work. [01:08:49] Speaker B: It was the street photography was the first thing that I thought, look, if I can, you know, start to collect. [01:08:54] Speaker A: Through. [01:08:57] Speaker B: My travels, that I would say, because I was always more inspired to dedicate time to street photography when I was traveling, I actually found it very difficult to do street photography in Australia. And I can talk a little bit about that. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Me too. [01:09:10] Speaker B: I haven't quite out why. I don't know. Look, I guess it's something like you're going to a new place, you, you have all this visual input and you're trying to process it and, and you're just excited by it and something looks new and you want to make sense of it so you capture it. The seeing beyond, the familiarity, I think is really difficult. And I really admire local photographers that are able to do that. So I'm always looking at ways to challenge and try and see my local landscape afresh. And so that's an ongoing thing. But I thought the street photography was going to be, I'll get a body of work and I can have an exhibition. I really like the idea of that having a physical exhibition. And it was over a period of time which I could collect those images in different trips, you know, so over a two year period I might go three or four places and I thought, okay, I'll have an exhibition. That was, that was kind of a plan that I did a couple of times and I self published a book of that kind of body of work. And that's an ongoing thing that I think that I'll always do. But the, the other project that I comes to mind that I really like was a, a portrait project that I did in Redfern in 2011. I think I'd set up in an office there. I was working out of there and I spent a year outside my office approaching people on the street to ask if they could come in and do a portrait. I hadn't really done a lot of portraiture, but I had a studio space, access to it. And in that space I built a backdrop and a lighting setup. But I'd also built a, a box which was a one way mirror. And so I'd approach people on the street of a morning, I'd kind of cast them, I'd look at them and think, oh, they're interesting. I'd go up and say, I'm a photographer, come in, can I do your portrait? And they would come in and sit in the space and the first thing that they would see is me behind A piece of glass, they. Which was a reflection of themselves. And so they would sit there and see themselves how the camera was going to see them. So they would adjust their clothes and their hair. And then I'd say okay, you ready? And then they be like yeah, I'm good. And then we'd just do the session. We'd photo. I'd photograph them and talk to them a little bit kind of from inside this box. That was a project that I really love because it combined dealing with people in a way that I really like and to tell their story. There was an empowerment through the concept because they were able to see how they all been portrayed. And it was also became a portrait of a suburb or a place that we never saw. We just saw through the people in their wardrobe really. And they were just, you know, approached on the street, going to work, going to the shops, etc, going about their day. So there it was an opportunity and to then have an exhibition about that place and that process in a local gallery. Here we go. Some imagery from it. And so I spent a year doing that on your. [01:12:10] Speaker C: On your website if anyone wants to get a closer look at these, which is linked in the show description. But. [01:12:16] Speaker B: And then what I made there are all these prints of life size. So actually that gentleman in the, in the blue robe and kind of red that and yeah, the beanie, Charles. He was my first one day one of the year long project. [01:12:32] Speaker C: Really. That was the first subject. [01:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I was like, how am I going to do this? So I just actually evolved out of another project. But this was. Charles came in and he just told me his story. It was from Thursday Island. He lived in Redfern for a number of years. But he used to lay the hardest job in the world, I reckon. Lay the, the, the train, you know, sleepers through the, through the Queensland, you know, the tropics. And he would tell me stories about himself and his life. And then over the subsequent year I would see him every. On a few days he'd walk by, how's it going? And. And so by the time we had the exhibition, I'd approached hundreds of people. I ended up having I think like 25 photos or something like that. And they came to the exhibition, they brought their friends and family, then I brought my friends and family and it became a really kind of this community thing. But I called it a love letter to a suburb because it was a suburb that was changing a lot as I was there in that period and had changed a lot, had an amazing history, was on the fringes of the. Kind of the cbd. And it also was a suburb that a lot of people are kind of on foot. You know, there's a train station there, so they're going to the train station. There's a lot of high rise community housing, so there's not a lot of cars necessarily places to park. So people could live and walk around the community and they would talk to each other. It was very connected community. So it's really. There's. It was a really lovely kind of process and I wanted to roll it out into other suburbs. Blacktown was another area. I want to do it in western Sydney. Set up in a shop front. Similar thing with the mirror and just capture these people's faces. I love the wardrobe. The wardrobe's such a wonderful thing. [01:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:24] Speaker B: Another guy there with a big beard. He was fantastic. He was. He was really interesting. I said, what? What are your favorite hobbies? And he. I think he was into magic. And I love how his hair is done. I mean, he was just. Literally just. That's how he looked. [01:14:41] Speaker C: He's a character straight out of a movie. [01:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Like from another era. So that. That was a wonderful thing to do. And I think that that spread into filmmaking in terms of documentary telling real stories and about real people in real places and trying to give them a visual aesthetic. But the concept of the one way mirror was also something that just elevated into a space that made it kind of interesting for the people that came to the exhibition because I built, rebuilt. I took the box out of the studio and I rebuilt it in the. In the exhibition space. So you can kind of go and walk around it and yeah, I actually just got a door, a glass door. And I got it. Got it. I tried to do as cheaply as possible. I got a film put on a reflective film. I lost a couple of stops with it, but I just had to boost up the lighting and kind of work. But that was a Canon 5D. I did that. That was the camera I was working on at the time. [01:15:37] Speaker C: Oh, cool. So it was Jim's just asking. Morning, Jim. Jim's often on this podcast as well. He's busy packing camera straps this morning. He says some behind the scenes of this would be amazing. Do you have any videos of the sessions? [01:15:55] Speaker B: I do actually. Yeah, I filmed a few of them. What is on the. My website is there's a little stop motion of me building the box in the space so you can see me kind of assembling it in quick time. Quick. There it is there. Yeah. So you can see the space that I was working. There's the backdrop I painted myself and just got a bit of canvas from Bunnings. This is the. That's the corner that I'd stand on Red Fern street and George street for a year through the changing weather. Stand out in there all rain and shine. And I would just walk up and. And eventually people would come up. Some people I might have approached and then might not come up. Might come up two weeks later and say, you know, yeah, okay, I'm into it. I'd see the same faces every morning. So it was a really. Look, this was, this was my spare time between. My office was where I was, you know, doing TV commercials out of a production house. So I just make use of what I had. You know, I had this shop front empty space. I had this beautiful suburb at my disposal. And I would have, you know, a couple of spare days a week that I could go out and get to know the neighborhood. And then, you know, I'd go upstairs and do the work in the afternoon and spend two or three hours in the morning doing this. And it gave myself 12 months to do it. [01:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's amazing and it's a. We've talked recently about, on the show and in some of our blogs about projects for photographers and I think this is a massive, amazing example of a, of an idea seen through to fruition. You know, I think many of us and in the street photography world as we, you know, like the idea of documenting our local area and somehow giving back to that, whether it be through an exhibition or, you know, putting up your prints in a cafe or actually having an opening night, you know, and I think it's a great example of seeing that through. So, you know, well done. I think it's, it's a remarkable achievement. [01:17:53] Speaker B: Look, it wasn't a clean process. I'll talk about this just for a minute. Because the scene of the idea came from a few different things and there was a lot of false starts. My grandmother was born in Redfern and she'd asked me to go and find a place where she worked when she was a teenager. So this is the 1920s in the area. She said, I worked in a jelly factory. And I somewhat. I, you know, I set up an office there and I thought, okay, I'll go for a while, see if I can find this jelly factory. And I kind of never found it. But I asked people, you know, the older people. And so I started talking to people and at the other. At the same time I had this idea that I wanted to do a photograph of people's scars portrait series. And the challenge was how do I get people to show me something, can talk about something possibly so intimate or traumatic. And I started trying to combine this search for a jelly factory with a, this scar thing. And it was just so confronting naturally, but it was the seed of something that turned into Redfern I love you portrait series. And it was just the evolution of that process. And so with the scar thing, I actually made a few flies that I'd put around. I went to shopkeepers and it was really uncomfortable and awkward, but I put myself in a position where I started to present myself as this photographer who was doing projects in the area. And then I just thought, why don't I just do a portrait, straight portrait series? And I can build up the trust over time. And so, you know, it's, I think it's really important to, to understand. I know that was a really good, good thing for me to work out is that those seeds of those ideas, they, they're imperfect, but it's those seeds of ideas that grow. Keep your enthusiasm, motivation through long projects that you can hone and allow it to change as well and sometimes simplify it. But that, that was really good for me to go through and I'm really proud of the connections I made and the this and the reflection of a suburb that I loved and that it kind of came to fruition, but there was a lot of fits and, and starts of trying to work out what it is. And I'd come home and say to my wife I had this idea and she's like, it's crazy, but I would kind of keep going with it to try and work out what it is. Yeah, yeah. And how to do it too. Logistically, working that stuff out is really. Sometimes you just can't work it out. It comes to you years later. [01:20:20] Speaker C: I love that insight because I think some of us, I don't know what you call me, I'm lumping me into a group of me's but like less artistic people that haven't done projects like this, haven't. I've never had an exhibition or anything like that. And I think sometimes we see this stuff and just think, okay, these, these really sort of creative people, they just have an idea and then they just execute on it. And then the idea is an exhibition or a book or whatever. And that's how it goes, you know, like this was your idea and you just did it. And it's great to hear that sometimes it's it's an evolution of an idea that didn't work or that had to change for constraints or whatever, because I haven't. You know, you think about some of the most simple projects to get us using our cameras. Something like the, you know, a photo every day for 2025 or whatever. And people are like, oh, but it's the 9th of January, so I've already, you know, I can't start it now, so I don't know, maybe I'll do something else or what. Whatever, you know, like. And it's that, you know, you could start a photo a day for 2025 on the 9th of January, but then that evolves into not every day. But I did start taking photos of this one street that I walked down every day, but I only did it twice a week. And then it became a project about that street or what, you know, like, it can evolve and that's okay. You just got to have ideas and go after it. [01:21:44] Speaker B: Yep. And let it evolve. And, And. And don't be hard on yourself. It's gonna. It's gonna. There's a lot more uncertainty than certainty. And eventually you latch onto something and. And it's then you. The momentum happens because it's alive in your mind and you can see it more clearly. But it is murky to begin with. But it's those little things. Like, it might just start with what space you have or. Or a place that you have access to or a person or a, you know, a material or something. It might be just because it's there and it's staring at you. [01:22:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:19] Speaker B: Or you're excited by it. I mean, I often tell people, if you're excited by something that is gold because that will actually get you through you all the little hard things and obstacles along the way. But, you know, if that excitement is the fuel, then that fuel is. Is. Is in rare supply because it's easy not to do it. And particularly if you talk yourself out of stuff as well, that can happen, you know, and talk, talk, talk you down. Talk yourself down. [01:22:46] Speaker A: Very true. Very true. I'm guilty of that, big time. Yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. So anyone out there that's listening or watching, just a reminder that this is the Camera Life podcast. It's the 30th of January. Episode 47. We're being joined. We're being joined. We are joined. Guest today is Ben Lawrence. I finally got it out. So we've been hearing about Ben's work and love of filmmaking, but also how his photography has interlaced that journey throughout his creative life and his earliest inspirations from his parents and growing up in an artistic household. I think it's also. Yeah, I think we have some comments. You want to bring them up, Justin? [01:23:40] Speaker C: Well, just, just. Editor Seb. Good morning everyone. [01:23:43] Speaker A: Morning. You're an hour late. [01:23:46] Speaker C: You're an hour late. Working on some clips for the, for the podcast, which is pretty cool. Excited to get them out. Little bite sized chunks of hopefully something exciting for you all. Philip Johnson. Morning gents to see you. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Morning, Philip. [01:24:00] Speaker B: Morning. [01:24:01] Speaker C: And I think that's it back and forth between Seb and Jim. Did you want to dig into something else, Greg or otherwise? I was, I was interested to find out about Hearts and Bones. [01:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah, let's talk about that. [01:24:17] Speaker C: That was a film. Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a film that you directed and wrote. [01:24:23] Speaker A: Yep. [01:24:24] Speaker B: Co road. [01:24:25] Speaker C: Co wrote and it has obviously a very strong photography theme central to the story. Where did the idea come from? And, and tell us a little bit about the process of. Obviously you've mentioned it was a very long process, but a little bit more about the process of getting that project off the ground. [01:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Look, it was a, it was a combination of my love of photography and journalism as well, fascination with war photography in particular and, and people who practice and you know, work in that area. But it, it caught, it sparked. In 2002, I saw an image that a French war photographer had captured. His name's George Gobay and his image I think was in the Ivory coast and it was of a man on the ground on his neck, knees, with a gun to his head. And it was a very close up image but you could see the sense of fear that he was going through. And I saw that the World Press Photo Exhibition in Sydney I think in 2002 or three. And again it was just an image that stayed with me that was a store really self contained story about. Eventually what turned into the film was a story about a photographer and the subject of one of his photographs. A man in a position, a situation where he was in a very vulnerable situation, his life was a threat and, and the photographer had taken a photograph of him and these two men lives go on and one returns home to Sydney and the other eventually becomes a refugee and, and ends up living in Sydney. The subject of the photograph 20 years later. And it's really about the dynamic of the two sides of a photograph. One the subject and one the photographer and how that echoes through time and this idea that someone can be frozen in a moment and Simply known. Reduced down to that moment for their entire life. When you look at famous water photographs like the. The Vietnam, the napalm girl running down the street, and she's. Her skin has been burned. I mean, there's an amazing story about her and her life subsequent to that image and how that became so central to how people saw her and really became separate from that image. And she becomes an older woman, and you can't even identify with that. That image. And so it was about those things. [01:27:00] Speaker A: I was just gonna. Sorry, I was just gonna say, I read recently there's been some controversy about that image, about who actually took it. It's coming to question again about who actually shot the. [01:27:08] Speaker B: Oh, really? Yeah, because there's video image of. Of that. Of that moment as well. So this. [01:27:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Coming towards the camera or, like, holding their hands out because they're all, you know, on fire. Yeah. [01:27:23] Speaker C: Gosh. [01:27:24] Speaker B: I mean, it's. It's a haunting image. It's. It's. It's kind of a period of time when. When. When war photography, images like that can really sway opinion of a population about how they felt about a war. And the evolution of that, obviously, is. Is another thing, and how. How imagery has changed. And we've swamped with a lot of imagery like that now. But I still think those images can impress upon a population of the. The horrors that are going on in different parts of the world. Those things really fascinated me. And so I started to look at these photographs through history, where the photographer and the image or the person within the image start to have a relationship. And the effects of that image on that person who's in the photograph, how that kind of ripples through their life as well. [01:28:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:12] Speaker B: And so that was the genesis for Hearts and Bones. And Hugo Weaving eventually played the war photographer. He returns home, and then he's contacted by a South Sudanese man under the guise of saying, I'd like you to come and photograph this choir that I run, this men's choir of refugees, and come and meet us. Come and be part of us. Come and tell our stories. And then he eventually reveals that they'd actually met 20 years earlier, and he was the man in one of his photographs. And. And. [01:28:42] Speaker A: Wow. [01:28:43] Speaker B: The story behind the photograph, while it says one thing he wanted to say to him, there's more to that story. There's more that you need to know, because beyond the frame of the lens and the. And the moments before and after you took that photograph, the context of that is who I am. And so it becomes this conversation about These two different worlds, these two different life paths and the two different perspectives of a single moment. And it's about that gray that actually tries to make sense of. Of sometimes what an image doesn't say. And that. That took a long time to ride. Like I said, I saw that Original image in 2002 and the film came out in 2020. So, yeah. Long journey of trying to write a script that would capture all of those moments, kind of drama and then attract the money and the actors in order to make it happen. Yeah. [01:29:43] Speaker C: Like I said, if, if you haven't seen the film, I would highly recommend it, whether you're into photography or not. But if you listen to this, I would like to think you're into photography in some way. It's a beautiful movie. Very, very powerful imagery. It's on. If you're in Australia, it's on ABC iView in the rest of the world. I'm not sure. Google it. [01:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's on itunes in the US and, And maybe sky in uk. But yeah, it's on different platforms around the world. But I mean, even, even check out the trailer because it's, you know, it's a wonderful entry point to give you a sense of the film and, and the different ways we tried to capture Sydney in a way in which, you know, hadn't been seen before. The different parts of the city as well. So that's a real character and that was something that I really wanted to. To portray my home city in a way in which you don't often see. It's very difficult to film in Sydney. I think in real, real Sydney we so often see the harbor and, you know, the, the beaches. But, you know, it's. It's a breadth of the city that I think is a really lovely. Again, a love letter to the city. [01:30:51] Speaker A: Justin, can we show. Can we show a couple of moments from the. [01:30:55] Speaker C: Well, I think so. I don't know whether YouTube will. [01:30:58] Speaker A: Oh, no, YouTube might it. [01:31:01] Speaker C: Yeah, because it will be copyrighted. So I would imagine we would get fairly swiftly knocked down for playing more than just a few seconds of it. But I'll just, I'll bring up. So you can easily see the trailer on Ben's website, which is linked below. If you just go to films. And then it's here under Hearts and Bones and I'll bring the trailer up. But yeah, I don't think we could play very much at all because. Well, we can play a few seconds, but, you know, but yeah, you can see. Can't get that thing to disappear the, the imagery, it won't do it justice. Watch it on your own device. Big and, and big and loud. And then yeah, if you can set aside a couple hours and watch the movie. It was, as I said, very powerful and, and a really, really interesting way to think about like you say, a single image and the different meanings that it can have and what's inside the frame and outside the frame and before the frame and after the frame and how much context that can have and how much power, I guess a photographer has in those moments to display what they're seeing or what they want the viewer to feel or see as opposed to potentially a different context or a different view of that same moment. [01:32:27] Speaker B: And part of the process of making that film, we had to find a photographer whose body of work would be representative for our Hugo Weavings character. And we came across Ron Haviv, who is a wonderful war photographer, has got an amazing career and 20 or 30 year career and it's his work that appears in the film that is the Hugo Weavings character. And so it was a really wonderful thing to bring in that. And it's something that I really like to do in my work I've always kind of tried to achieve it is bringing the real world and bringing a real world. War photographers work in trying to film in working environments, whether we're filming on, you know, public transportation board or using available light when we're filming. So you have to film quickly so you're not getting too much change across the scene and, and the harshness of the Sydney sun. So all of those things were, you know, impacted upon in, in a photographic approach that made us think about the story we were telling, but also the challenges of, of trying to tell in, in a way which is rich and interesting and alive. But I encourage everyone to go look at Ron Havib's work, his amazing American photography. [01:33:40] Speaker C: I'll just bring a little bit of his work up here. This is just again on his website and you can also follow him over on Instagram that just come up as well. But yeah, the images are so powerful. [01:34:01] Speaker B: I mean it's interesting. All the, all the work that I was looking at in research was all black and white and I came across Ron and his use of color is just amazing. It's so powerful and I think that's a real. Everything feels immediate and alive and, and also beautiful. I mean there's so many. It's, it's a, a difficult thing to say about war photography or conflict photography. Yeah. And it's interesting to see how their work evolves as well. You look at someone like Don Mc, who's, you know, photographed a lot of war zones, and now he, in his later life, photographs the fields around his home, this kind of bucolic, beautiful farming regional space that he lives in the uk. And I always, When. When these photographers, they survive through their career, what their work becomes later on is really interesting because they've seen the most horrible things. [01:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:54] Speaker B: But what they start to process and seek out to photograph in their late career, in their later lives, is as a body of work, is that evolution is, I find fascinating. [01:35:07] Speaker C: Was it? [01:35:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I've never really thought of it that way before. You know, people. People that do this sort of work, that there is an element of trauma attached to it for them. You can't be human. I believe I might be wrong here, but you can't be human and see some of these things and not have that cling to you in some way and shape how you see the world. [01:35:32] Speaker B: And you have the imagery within your archives to always bring that stuff back. Yeah, it's always there. And it sits. And this is. Became part of the film. It sits within a box within your home where your family is. And you bring this home and you live with it. And they do. There's a. You know, that they put themselves in position to try and tell these stories and bring alive voices that may not have been heard. And in doing so, they sacrifice something and. And you look, pointing a camera at these things is part of the huge challenge of it. And so often it feels. It feels inappropriate, I think. And a lot of them talk about that, but they also know that it's important. And it. That tussle, but internal tussle about, do I photograph it? Do I not photograph it? And these stories that you hear about conflict photographers talking about that challenge is. Is also a really interesting thing because sometimes it's not the most graphic thing and it's often not the most. Most graphic thing that I think translates to impact upon society. It's that moment to the side. It's a suggestion of something and then. Then it allows you to fill in the gaps as a viewer as well. That captures the horror or the beauty or the resilience or something of the moment. [01:37:00] Speaker A: That's fascinating, isn't it? [01:37:02] Speaker C: Was it. Was it Ron's imagery that was also featured at the end of the film? There was like a series of images. Yeah, there's. [01:37:11] Speaker B: Oh, no, that. That, that. That montage is. Is a work of a whole group of different photographers. [01:37:18] Speaker C: I Wondered that because there was a lot in there and, and, and a variety of. Yeah. Of work. So it was. Okay. So it wasn't all his work. It was a group of photographers at the end. [01:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [01:37:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:37:32] Speaker B: But you know, it was wonderful to get a bit of background on what, what talking to him and he was wonderful. So great process. [01:37:42] Speaker A: David's just asked again, where can we see this film? So maybe just Google search it. But it looks like it, it might. [01:37:51] Speaker C: Be on prime in the States. I don't know. I just, I just googled it. Oh no, that's not, that's TV series. [01:37:57] Speaker B: So it was on SBS in Australia. It, I think ABC are going to see screen it later this year. It's definitely on itunes locally in Australia. [01:38:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm just trying to find. [01:38:08] Speaker B: Still have it on on demand. Oh, he's on the U.S. okay. [01:38:10] Speaker C: He's in the U.S. yeah. I'm just trying to, to see if I can find it. But it was definitely on ABC Iview for free in, in Australia, which was pretty cool. [01:38:23] Speaker A: Great. [01:38:26] Speaker C: But I can't, I can't see it. Amazon prime would be your best Chance. Or Apple TV. Like iTunes. [01:38:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:38:40] Speaker A: So Ben, what's next for you? What's on the cards? [01:38:44] Speaker B: What's on the cards? I'm working on a documentary series about robodebt, which was the government scandal targeting welfare recipients kind of in 2019 is 201617 actually. So I'm working on that for SBS and so that, that'll take up the first half of this year and then there's other projects, hopefully that will come. But after that I'm unemployed until something pops up. It's, it's always contract work, you know, so I'm throwing, throwing all my effort into that at the moment. So that's a, that, that, that's quite consuming a project. [01:39:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:20] Speaker B: Imagine trying to tell that story. Yeah. [01:39:24] Speaker A: And so you're directing that. Yeah, that piece. [01:39:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:30] Speaker A: And are you working? So do you work with like investigative journalists to unearth information, to interview people and your role is obviously to coordinate the screen time stuff? Is that how it works? [01:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean my, I, I tend with documentary work if it's not my project, I tend to come in and kind of create a vision and how things should look and feel and then some sort of story arc where we get a sense of who the characters are. This new project is a bit of a drama doco hybrid. So it has dramatic scenes within the documentary and, and the interviews that kind of carry the. The broad narrative, but generally the director will come in and. And yes, with the cinematographer set this kind of visual arc and then kind of the story thread. And then if it's my project, it's a much more deeper involvement. There's more writing and interviewing and working with the subjects to try and bring about that. And then some work I've done with Four Corners and people like that. They're really the investigative journalists that I kind of work with that try and tell their stories. I did a documentary where I followed Julian Assange's family for a couple of years prior to his release. And that was very much fly on the wall. I was operating camera the whole time. So very much more observational documentary. And that was really a living environment where we're all together and just kind of on the fly type conversations where I was much more hands on, you know, operating the camera, etc. And working in different environments. So it depends on the project. [01:41:10] Speaker A: Yeah, very cool. A couple of quick fire questions. If, if you could have, if you could have your dream street photography camera, what would it be? [01:41:26] Speaker B: I. Look, I just love something that's small and tough and fast, you know, fast in light and fast in response that. That would be it. I mean, in terms of manual controls, I, I'm not too, too fussed about that. I would, you know, I look at something like. Is it the gr. There's, you know, the mini luxury. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's stuff like that. I think Fujifilm are making some great stuff at the moment for street photography. This, like I said, the speed of their cameras. I'd be looking at stuff like that. Yeah. Even fixed lens. You know what? There was some. There was an early Sony came out with a fixed lens, had a 35. [01:42:09] Speaker A: On it, full frame or the RX1R. [01:42:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I did buy one of them for a moment. [01:42:14] Speaker C: Everyone wants that to get the rumor. [01:42:16] Speaker A: Circulation that they're making. [01:42:18] Speaker B: Really. [01:42:18] Speaker A: They're making another on a Mark iii? I think it is. Yeah. [01:42:21] Speaker C: Because there was. [01:42:22] Speaker B: I had one of those for a moment. I would love it if they kind of evolved that. That was something that was a real kind of purist talk about restrictions and. Yeah, that, that I, I really love that camera. So. [01:42:35] Speaker C: Yeah, you had one of those. [01:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:38] Speaker C: And what, what made you get rid of it? It wasn't, wasn't quite like. Was it not there as far as the speed or something? Something like that or there? [01:42:47] Speaker B: Well, when the A7s came out, I needed something in really low light and it Was that was just such a leap that I could shoot in, you know, candlelight with that and it was, you know, work work for me. So that was, that was why I made that decision to swap them out. But yeah, I really like what that range was doing and that was one that was like, oh, that was exciting. And the full frame, with the new technology, I think it would be that much faster as, as well, it would be great if they evolved that. [01:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it'd be great for low light. [01:43:16] Speaker C: Sound like crazy. [01:43:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just as a collectible. I mean, you know, if you could afford it and keep it and I think in an age. Well, they were tough, really tough cameras. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I'd be interesting to see what. Because the other rumor is that Fujifilm are making a GFX fixed lens like an X Pro or like an X100, but obviously with a, with a whopping sensor and probably a much bigger body. And we were talking with our guest last week, the week before Nev, G'day, Nev, if you're watching. And he's really keen to. He's all over that. I get a message from him about once a week saying I reckon it will have this sort of sensor and he's really excited about getting a fixed lens medium format, which he mostly works with. Next question for you because I'm just conscious of time because I know you've got other responsibilities. If you could go to anywhere in the world for street photography, where would it be? [01:44:19] Speaker B: I probably got a bit of a list. I mean, Cuba is a favorite. I've been there a couple of times. But I always really love. That was always very inspiring. Trying to think somewhere I haven't been that I'd like to go to. I'd probably. Last place I tried to go to was Iran. I'd love to go and photograph there. And maybe somewhere like Russia. I, I, those two places probably really fascinate me and, and Papua New Guinea. I haven't been there. Being it being so close somewhere like that in the tropics. It wasn't in. They would probably really excite me, I think, if I was in those places. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:45:02] Speaker A: Oh, very cool. Very interesting. We're coming to the close of the show because Ben has other responsibilities, Justin and I don't. We're both just freeloaders. [01:45:16] Speaker C: Will we stick around for a little bit, Greg, and go through some news? [01:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah, let's cover a bit of news. Let's cover a bit of news. [01:45:23] Speaker C: After we let Ben head off and get on with the rest of his day. Yeah, there's a couple of comments here. Just Paul says Hearts and Bones are still on abc. I view great film. [01:45:34] Speaker B: I agree. [01:45:34] Speaker A: Thanks, Paul. [01:45:35] Speaker B: Thank you, Paul. [01:45:36] Speaker C: David Mascara says we have some stories brewing over here in the US you can do if you want. [01:45:42] Speaker B: Great. I'll be there. [01:45:43] Speaker A: You've got endless content there for the next four years. [01:45:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:45:47] Speaker B: I'm developing a couple of documentaries in the US at the moment. So, yeah, maybe I'll, I'll be over there. It's a great, great place for documentaries. What a wonderful, you know, history. It's got of the films. It makes great stories. [01:46:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul Henderson dropped a comment saying. Let me just bring that up. Waiting to see. I think it's been OMDs. Olympus. The old Olympus brand. OMD. What are they now? Om Digital Systems. [01:46:17] Speaker C: Om Digital, yeah. [01:46:20] Speaker A: Om Systems. New releases will be next month, which is very true. They're working on a classic, a bit like the. The Nikon zf, but a micro four thirds, kind of like replicating one of their classic older film cameras. Editor Seb, who Ben, for your reference and anyone else. Editor Seb is actually my son. [01:46:45] Speaker B: Oh, good. [01:46:47] Speaker C: Excellent. [01:46:47] Speaker A: And he said after the podcast, Greg will just go back to bed. That's really offensive, but probably very true. No, I've got a second podcast. Got to do another one. [01:46:56] Speaker C: You could get a little nap in in between. [01:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah, power nap probably. [01:46:59] Speaker A: Little one. And final comment from Jim, just saying thanks, Ben. And I think that echoes what we all want to say is thank you, Ben, for your time today. Thanks for sharing so much about your work and your earliest inspirations and the projects and the realities of working in a creative industry that it's not always glory, it's not always a stream of reliable income. Sometimes, you know, you've got to. You've got to make hay while you can and then you've got to bank for a while. But I think that, I think probably one of the most inspirational things to take away from today's chat is that if you've got your core vision right, you will find a way to make whatever project it is, whether it is a funded project or not, to make it work. And you may have to make sacrifices and you may your initial idea, let it organically evolve and it might lead you to something very new and creative and special. So on behalf of Justin and I and Jim and Yelena and Editor Seb, our team is growing. We're going to need our own list of credits soon. [01:48:07] Speaker C: Growing a little. I'm Scared. [01:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Well, you're paying for it all. Is it? Yeah. Ben, thank you so much. At the end of the day, it's been great to have you on the show, and great to get such a different perspective on life with a camera. You know, traditionally we talk to photographers. Some do a little bit of cinematography or filmmaking. Some try, like Justin. But it's great to get your perspective on it from someone who is so highly acclaimed. So well done. Thank you. [01:48:39] Speaker B: Well, thank you very much. It's been wonderful. And look, I love what you're building here. I love the atmosphere of it, and I think it's fantastic to talk about creativity all the time. And a lot of people want to hear about and talk about it and, you know, explore their own creativity. And it's certainly a wonderful life to lead if you can somehow stick with it. And it's great that you guys are doing this. I really appreciate. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you. [01:49:04] Speaker A: We love what we do. [01:49:05] Speaker C: We do. And we appreciate the time that you give to us in your busy morning. So thank you very much. [01:49:12] Speaker B: No worries. [01:49:13] Speaker A: Well, just let's. [01:49:14] Speaker B: Let's make it a yearly thing. [01:49:15] Speaker C: All right, let's do it. We'll check in with the next project. [01:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, once. Once I finish a couple of projects. [01:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be great. No, I'd love that. Absolutely. We'll be in touch. Well, I will. Justin's lazy. I'll be in touch. Last comment from editor Seb. Yes, indeed. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and stories with us. And on that note, we will say thank you and farewell. We'll cover a couple of news articles, but, yeah, we'll be in touch. [01:49:39] Speaker B: Okay, see you guys. Have a good day. Bye, everyone. [01:49:42] Speaker A: Thank you. Bye. [01:49:43] Speaker B: Cheers. [01:49:46] Speaker A: That was amazing. [01:49:47] Speaker C: Oh, man, I was. His body of work is crazy. [01:49:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Those films until. Yeah, crazy, that. [01:49:57] Speaker A: Yep. [01:49:58] Speaker C: The amount of work. When I was watching Hearts and Bones, I was just like, every single shot would have taken so long. And there's a lot of shots in that film. It's crazy. [01:50:06] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I have to watch it. [01:50:07] Speaker C: Very, very cool. [01:50:08] Speaker A: Watch it over the weekend. [01:50:10] Speaker C: Just make sure you carve out some time because it's. Yeah. It's an absorbing film. [01:50:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:15] Speaker C: Yeah. Set aside a couple hours and maybe after my nap, watch it in bed. Anyway. [01:50:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:25] Speaker A: The news. Let's jump to some news. Today's news is brought to you by ShotKit. Oh, no. What did I do? Well, messenger the stream. Jesus. Sorry. No, I almost. I almost ended the stream. Don't do That I got a bit confused for a second. Let's have a look at the latest photography and camera news. Is that working? Yes, that is. Here's some of the week's leading stories. Did we talk last week about leica celebrating their 100th anniversary? [01:51:05] Speaker C: I don't know. I think we do. No, I have no idea. [01:51:08] Speaker A: Anyway, like is Leica cameras are turning 100. They're releasing yet another new M11, 100 years of Leica anniversary edition. This is an elitist purchase. [01:51:19] Speaker C: I was about to say. I think that's one of those ones that no one knows anyone that bought one because I don't. I mean, I know I won't. I think that'd be very hard to get. [01:51:28] Speaker A: You might be able to get a teddy bear. So they're celebrating the anniversary, the 100 year anniversary of Leica cameras. Witness to a century is their motto. You can from various sites. Leica site and from this swish teddy bear making brand. They're really posh. Apparently Steif I think they're called, they're releasing celebratory teddy bears, stationary puzzles pins and M11 camera accessories. So like a hot shoe and a shutter release and a special strap. But then they're also releasing this new M11. It's a gloss black edition. I think it's six countries from memory. It's China, Germany, New York. Not that that's a country, but it's got New York on it. Italy, the United Arab Emirates and Japan. [01:52:18] Speaker C: Did it say, because I saw this. Did it say what significance those countries or New York not being country, like what the significance was? Did Leica have offices in those or something? Or was it like is there. [01:52:32] Speaker A: I think that's just their biggest selling countries. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't pick up anything. But there's only 100 for each country. [01:52:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:52:42] Speaker A: So that's how you know. So in the uae this is going to people that own oil fields and you know, multi billion dollar car collection. [01:52:51] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. [01:52:52] Speaker A: So it's a very. It's a very elite. Which is kind of frustrating. Like I get that. Well, I don't know. [01:53:00] Speaker C: It's a position of addition. Who cares? Like each. But real photographers would just buy a regular M11. Like I mean if they even want a Leica at all. But say you're a Leica photographer, like do you care if you don't have the hundred anniversary edition? [01:53:12] Speaker A: Not as a photographer but as a collector. I guess you would. But you know, I mean you could get a. You could get a Plain one and just scratch Bendigo in it and get some liquid paper and white it out. [01:53:23] Speaker C: Damn it is. Scratch a bendigo into my Q3. [01:53:25] Speaker A: They're gone. I'll get it professionally engraved if you, you know. [01:53:29] Speaker C: Nah, nah. I do it with. What did you use at school? A protractor. [01:53:32] Speaker A: Protractor. Yeah. To white out what could go wrong. Anyway, so that's, that's that little bit of news. What else have we got that's worth sharing? Panasonic updates and firmware. [01:53:47] Speaker C: Firmware. Canon's new lens is actually exciting. [01:53:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So the RF16,28 you're talking about. Yes, the new wide, that's more affordable. They're saying it has L series qualities. Not the price tag. [01:54:01] Speaker C: Well, look, it's the price tag of what L series was seven years ago probably, but not, not as high. So I think, I don't know, I'd have to check in Australia. They're probably going to be between like 15 and 1500 and 2000. I don't know, like 1800 or something. There's not a lot of pricing on them yet. Yeah, it's a, it's a match for the 28 to 72.8 released. They're basically the same size, the same body shape and I, both of those lenses, I'm not buying them yet because I have like, I've got the 15 to 35 L 2.8 which is a superior lens, but it's heavy. You know, I've got other lenses that cover those ranges. But if I am going to do more travel and I can test one of these out and if it can hold its ground in my wide angle needs. [01:54:51] Speaker A: Yep. [01:54:51] Speaker C: I would much rather like this for me because I used, I used the 16 mil 2.8 when I was traveling and I know I used the 28 mil 2.8 and they're both really nice lightweight lenses. But this is a lightweight lens and it does both, you know, like it. I can pretty much does. [01:55:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:55:09] Speaker C: And the quality based on early reports is supposed to be really quite good. So I'm loving this style of lens that they're releasing. And same with that 28 to 70. It's very usable range, but it only weighs 400 something grams. [01:55:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, this one's 454 grams, which is just on a pound. Yeah. You know, it's got a reasonable fast aperture and it's, it's got a, you know, it's got stabilization too. [01:55:34] Speaker C: If you slapped this or if you prefer normal range 28 to 70 on a Canon R8 which is like their full frame but not too expensive full frame camera. Like you've got something that can create very professional work for not insane amounts of money. [01:55:49] Speaker A: Videography and photography. [01:55:51] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:55:53] Speaker A: So that, that what I've written here is that the, it's made it to complement the EOS R6 Mark 2 or the R8. [01:56:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:56:01] Speaker A: I mean it will work with any of the R system full frames, but that's what they're going for. They're going for more that enthusiast level. Yeah. Market. [01:56:10] Speaker C: Which is funny though because I, I, I'm, I'm looking at it more from. I would use it on my R5 Mark II. Like I'm looking at it more of if the quality's there. But I can carry it around all day and it covers, you know, I just had so much fun shooting in Vietnam with a zoom where because of how fast paced everything was, the idea of either choosing wide or normal like this or that. They're the two lenses I bring to, you know, a location at another country. I just pick which one I'm going to wander around with that day. But it gives me a ton of options and they're wide enough to carry, carry all day. I'm, I'm enjoying the style of lens that they, yeah, that they went for. [01:56:50] Speaker A: Yeah, indeed though. [01:56:54] Speaker C: Is there just on price? They're, you know, they're cheap kind of. [01:56:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:59] Speaker C: You know, like they're cheaper than, than a $4,000 L lens. But lens prices have crept up a lot in the last like, yeah, five years or whatever. You know, because our lenses used to be $2000. So now the non L version is 1500 to 2000 and the L version is like 3, 3 to 4000. [01:57:17] Speaker A: So anyway, it's interesting. This one was a fun story. So Lexa at the, the recent CES in LA was in la. Yeah, Vegas. No, Las Vegas. [01:57:32] Speaker C: Vegas, yeah. [01:57:33] Speaker A: In Vegas, Lexa announced a whole bunch of products for cameras, entertainment systems and gaming because gamers are really big on storage now. But the little gold number on the right of that screen is the brand new Lexa Armor SD Gold UHS2 card. It's made from stainless steel that's probably anodized in the gold color. It's 37 times stronger than a standard plastic SD card. [01:58:05] Speaker C: Incredibly durable. [01:58:08] Speaker A: Yeah, probably will be no pricing just yet. This is, this was a, I think it was a proof of concept but they are coming and yeah, so it's got 2210 megabits a second write speed video class speed 60 which is good for videography, obviously. They've also revealed a bunch of new CF Express cards. [01:58:33] Speaker C: Oh yeah. [01:58:34] Speaker A: That are faster and more robust and blah, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, and they're. They're really pushing these docking stations that kind of read your cards and pull. [01:58:46] Speaker C: We used to have the freaking Lexa hub docking thing. [01:58:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:58:50] Speaker C: So they continued it. [01:58:52] Speaker A: Well, they're bringing them back. [01:58:59] Speaker C: Jim and I both had them and they were great. But I could never get the new. So we used XQDs and stuff. I think when, when this. These were the rage. But then CF Express type B. I don't think I could ever buy, you know, a new slot for it because they take those hubs and they take. Yeah, you could have a SD and a micro SD and we had XQD ones but then we wanted to upgrade to the newer stuff and they're not available anymore. So it's like a throwaway basically here on the left. [01:59:32] Speaker A: I can't zoom in. Sorry. That's got two SD cards. This one looks like it's got a micro SD slot. These are blank for some reason. These ones have. [01:59:41] Speaker C: Well, the old one used to have hard drive that ssd. [01:59:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they're just portable sds. [01:59:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a cool system. I really liked it. But it very much annoyed me that they, you know, we thought we were buying into something that we could constantly upgrade, you know, for a long time. Future proof. Future proof. Change our needs with our cameras and our cards as they change and that kind of stuff and ingest multiple things from a single shoot all at once. It was very. I think Jim might even still use this. I'd be interested to know. Jim, if you're listening, if, if you're not listening, why aren't you listening? But if you are listening, do you still use your Lexa hub or not? [02:00:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:20] Speaker C: Anyway, but this is cool. It's cool to see them coming back, but hopefully they stick with it this time and keep bringing out the new little hub parts as technology. [02:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Other than that. I talked a little bit last week about Panasonic's new four camcorders. Who we talk about that with. Was that with Nev. No. Yeah. And just one last thing before we jump onto that comment. Sorry. Digifrog BCN ranking who they do about 50 of the sales data for retail stores that sell electronic goods in Japan. They've crowned this the. It's like 3 year old Sony Vlogcam ZVE10. Not the Mark 2, but the Mark 1 as the best. The best Selling camera in Japan in 2024. [02:01:14] Speaker C: I wonder was it. Did, did the Mark II come out in 2024? Like was this getting. Yeah, I wonder if they just had. [02:01:24] Speaker A: A ton of stuff late 24. The ZVE E10 mark 2. The one came out in 21. So this is a, this is a four to five year old camera. [02:01:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you reckon they just did crazy good pricing on it, you know, for the year? [02:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think there's that but I think there's also a huge. Japan was late to the influencer market really like compared to the rest of us they, you know they were more into traditional photography but the boom in YouTube in Japan has been quite astronomical and on social media platforms as well. So having something like this that's a hybrid, it's compact, it's, it's got Japan written all over it like it's the white color, the fluffy dead rat on the top and you know I think. [02:02:17] Speaker C: It'S got a lot of. Yeah, it's got like a lot of vlogging specific features. [02:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:02:23] Speaker C: Auto framing. [02:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. So it's very user friendly and, and obviously Sony make high quality machines devices and Yeah, I think it's a good observation. I think it's. I can't remember what they're worth at the moment. I don't know if it said it. Canon EOS R50 and the R10 were second and third. Not even full frame. [02:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Right. [02:02:46] Speaker A: So very few full frame cameras appearing on this. [02:02:49] Speaker C: I mean still got crop sensors killing it. So the A6400 in there, the Z6400 is still. Still that camera is just a workhorse. Is that a crop as well? [02:03:04] Speaker A: I think maybe. Yeah. You don't hear about them much anymore. [02:03:10] Speaker C: No. Yeah. [02:03:12] Speaker A: So yeah, interesting. And the, the E10 mark II was on there but it was nice. So a lot of non. Not the cameras you sort of would expect the way that these products are marketed at us that you know it's always about the latest and the biggest and the most mega pickles and all those funky features that we talked about earlier. But people are still gravitating. Well at least in Japan and this bunch of data they're still gravitating towards relatively cheap entry level to slash enthusiast level cameras. Yeah. I mean any camera style is good for the industry. [02:03:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:03:53] Speaker A: Almost any feeds in that I fly Mark two is a bit dodgy. But let's, let's jump onto one last comment because that's about it for the news. [02:04:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Dave Digifrog on A side topic. Anyone ever used the clip in filters nds and polarizing that sit on the front of a sensor, not on the lens. I think kolari make them wondering any experiences? Honestly I've never, I've seen the drop in filters for. [02:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:23] Speaker C: Like lens adapters for like. Oh like lens. It goes in the photo. [02:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [02:04:31] Speaker C: Or it's built into some lenses with bulb bulb elements at the front. Have it built into the back of the lens like a gel holder or whatever. I've never heard of this. Sit in front of the sense. Yeah. [02:04:42] Speaker A: So it drops in and it's like on a frame that kind of sits flush so that because you know the lens, the back of the lens will extrude inside the mount. Sorry will extend inside the mount. So they, they kind of, they, they drop in but they sort of sit down very close to the sensor and I don't know how much of an impact they have on light or the sensor's ability to read resolute like to pick up all the detail and create resolution. It always makes me nervous putting anything that close to my sensor. [02:05:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:05:15] Speaker A: That the camera maker didn't think to do themselves. [02:05:18] Speaker C: Yeah. It doesn't sound like something I would want to play around with in the field. You know, like if you, if you were going to leave it in there for a shoot or something like that maybe. But I don't. It doesn't, it wouldn't excite me. Like I use ND filters a lot when I'm out shooting hybrid stuff because I'm from video to photo and back and forth and blah blah, blah. It's like I would not want to be changing, pulling my lens off to take it off and put it back on again regularly while I'm out shooting stuff. So it probably depends on the application. But no, I've got zero experience. Unfortunately. [02:05:50] Speaker A: Unfortunately in my view the least that you have to expose your sensor the better. [02:05:58] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [02:06:00] Speaker A: You know, unless you're going to leave it in there. Yeah, unless you're just going to leave it in there and you're done with it. I don't know. I don't know if they're magnetized and I don't know how whether I doubt it affects the EXIF data. I mean not that a sensor would, would anyway but I don't know, it's. I don't know whether technically whether it would impact, you know who would know? Richard Teddy would know whether it would actually impact the quality of the image. [02:06:29] Speaker C: I was going to say it'd be interesting to Know, is it being pitched as a higher quality alternative because I don't know, being closer to the sensor or blah blah, blah, you know, like in. I'm just trying to think from. If someone knows better about the physics of lenses and the way that light travels through like is, is it going to have less of an impact than. Than something on the front? Yeah, because. Yeah. I don't know. It feels inconvenient. It does sound inconvenient. Unless it's possibly pitched at being the only option as in you've got a bulb set or the only option other than like a giant slide slide in NISSI kit or whatever. You know, because if you've got a bulb, a bulb wide angle, you can't put anything on the front of it. Yeah. Maybe they claim. [02:07:18] Speaker A: Did you just come back to say. They claim no vignetting and no color shifts. His benefits. Well that's every. [02:07:25] Speaker C: Everyone that sells NDS and polarizing filters has no vignetting and no color shifts listed in their features and benefits. It's often, it's often false. But they do all, they do all claim that. [02:07:36] Speaker A: Look, I guess if you have a non standard lens or you're adapting a vintage lens or like Justin said. I know like the Fuji 8 to 16 2.8 that doesn't have a filter thread at the front, it has a built in petal hood and obviously a very bulbous front element. And so brands like NISI then sell a mount that sort of clamps to the lens and allows you to drop in filters which is in itself inconvenient. But more. Yeah. Than taking the lens off, exposing the sensor, dropping something in. Yeah, yeah. [02:08:13] Speaker C: I'd probably rather that if you're a landscape photographer that always has a polarizer on maybe you know like if you only ever shoot with wide angles and you've always got your polarizer on and this is going to be a better way to do it. Maybe. But yeah. Anyway, unfortunately we're just basing this off zero experience. Yeah, we're just what we think. [02:08:33] Speaker A: Guessing. We're guessing. [02:08:34] Speaker C: We're just guessing. We guess. It's not good. [02:08:37] Speaker A: We run the show. We can poo poo whatever we want. That's right. [02:08:40] Speaker C: Unless they sponsor us in which case I highly recommend them. [02:08:45] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, we want to sponsor. That's fine. Or send us some or test them. [02:08:49] Speaker C: Yeah, actually that's a good idea. [02:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah, send us some. [02:08:54] Speaker C: They even do one eight Missed Andy together for videographers. Oh, I should bring up some final news. Did you see the latest influencer filter sales pitch. [02:09:07] Speaker A: The gold. The gold filter. [02:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Peter McKinnon. New ones. [02:09:13] Speaker A: Someone's done a gold mist filter. [02:09:16] Speaker C: This one's. Yeah, I think it's polar probably. And they're the 135 series. Ah, got it straight up. It's supposed to give you that filmic look. I'm presenting as we speak. So Peter McKinnon, super mega famous YouTuber has just released his newest series of products that come in these smaller sizes, very much marketed at like, like a Q series and X100 series. He even used a Leica Q2, I think in the promo video that he made. And they're just the. They're just sort of fairly standard filters, but black mist, gold mist and a polarizer in fairly normal thread sizes that you said that they've never done these small thread sizes before, like 49 and 67. But yeah, lots of other company, lots of other companies do. But yeah, his claim was film. Film look, I don't know. [02:10:29] Speaker A: I don't see it from a filter. [02:10:31] Speaker C: From a filter. Yeah. So I don't know. I'd have to throwback. And it's got this cool. I mean the tin does look cool. You were showing the tin in the video. The tin's all tough cover. Exactly. They're very strong and you know, that's pretty cool. It's not cheap. [02:10:53] Speaker A: I've had these before. I ended up I think giving them or selling them to a friend. Can I share my screen now? [02:10:58] Speaker C: Yeah, hang on, let me pull this one down. Go. [02:11:03] Speaker A: So this is NISI. They do mist filters for X1 hundreds and the Sony RX100 series. I've had this rig because it also fits on the Fujifilm X70 which they don't list here, which is interesting. And you can drop in these little. You can buy all these different square filters. But one of the other things they sell, which is where is it they sell black mist filters for X1 hundreds. [02:11:29] Speaker C: Oh yeah. So it's interesting, I guess the pricing is actually kind of are similar. [02:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not too bad. [02:11:39] Speaker C: These are 79 US and those are 119. That's it's going to work out very, very similar. So. Okay. Because I thought these would be overpriced. Yeah, I thought they'd be expensive. [02:11:50] Speaker A: You know, they're not too bad. [02:11:53] Speaker C: Okay. [02:11:53] Speaker A: The other one I want to share just very quickly while we're on the subject. Sorry, just want to cut you off. [02:11:58] Speaker C: No, no, that's. It's just interesting because it's like sometimes these Products get. Get put out. And also, obviously, like, it's cool. These styling is cool and they've come up unique looks. But a lot of these products aren't new, they're just rebranded. Yeah, like, you know, a redone reissue with. With someone's style or whatever. But Nissi, like I say, Nissi's been making him for ages. Lots of companies been making it for a long time. [02:12:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And then there's this one, which is a soft, warm gold diffusion filter, which I had never heard of. Gold diffusion filters. No, not dust. Thousands of tiny gold flecks infused in the glass. So it actually softens. You can see here. It's going to be really hard for you guys at home to see. And anyone on the audio podcast, impossible. [02:12:42] Speaker C: If you double tap, it zooms in. If you're depending on how your computer set, like, not tap, like double. Yeah, not click. [02:12:49] Speaker A: Don't do it, because I'm on my spare screen. But yeah, it's obviously, you know, mist filters soften, but this one adds a little bit of warmth, a little bit of hazy warmth to it, which is interesting. Anyway, there it is there with all the little fleckies. [02:13:06] Speaker C: Interesting. What? It's the. It's the GR3 that has the. It's got one of those. Not. Not a gold foot, but it's got like a black mist or something built into one of their special. [02:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, they do one of those. [02:13:18] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. Yeah, I've never tried it. [02:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I've used the black mist one and I like it. It creates a really nice. It softens contrast without losing it so much. So, yeah. Interesting. [02:13:35] Speaker C: Okay. Very interesting. [02:13:37] Speaker A: That's about it for the news for this week. Should we bring it to a close? [02:13:41] Speaker C: I think so, yeah. [02:13:43] Speaker A: We've got a second podcast if you're watching or listening. Well, if you're watching live now, come back at 11:30am Australian Eastern Daylight Time. We're catching up briefly, ever so briefly, with Charlie Blevins, who's been on the show before, but he's also works for Fujifilm Australia, and he's joining us to talk about the Fujifilm Creator Summit that is coming up next month in Sydney and an opportunity for anyone to go along and be part of the. The Fujifilm. Good times. I can't go because I have some other commitments, other work commitments coming up. But anyway, we're going to talk to Charlie about that, so come back in about an hour and 15 minutes. But aside from that, for those of you that have Watched along or listened along. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks for your comments. We always love the interaction with people watching. I think it's important because it helps us feel like we're doing something a little more than just speaking at you. We're. [02:14:42] Speaker C: I was going to say that there's somebody out there. [02:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, we're not all. [02:14:46] Speaker C: He's listening to us. [02:14:47] Speaker A: Not just family members. Not just my son. He's one of them. Thank you, editor Seb. [02:14:52] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Justin. [02:14:53] Speaker A: Any. Any closing thoughts? [02:14:56] Speaker C: No, I don't think so. That was great. It's very, very cool. Very impressed to talk to Ben. A wonderful guest. Thanks for. Thanks for teeing him up. Otherwise. No. [02:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we've got more guests of that caliber and some shitty ones, too, coming along. [02:15:13] Speaker C: Awesome. [02:15:14] Speaker A: You know, I've tried to really reach out to a really diverse range of people. Not just photographers, but filmmakers, people that run photo galleries, people that, you know, work in print labs. We're trying to get the whole spectrum of our industry or creative field involved in the show. So stick around for that in coming episodes, but until then, we'll catch you in about an hour and a bit. Be safe. Get out and hunt the light. It's not people. [02:15:45] Speaker C: No, just a light. [02:15:47] Speaker A: Just a light. All right, let's play this out. Some music, boss? [02:15:50] Speaker C: Yeah, let's go. See you, Paul. See you, Sebastian. [02:15:55] Speaker A: See Dave and Dave and Dave and Dave and Dave. I think it was two. [02:15:59] Speaker C: Paul, if you're listening. [02:16:00] Speaker A: Yeah. See other guys and girls.